4.5: Curvy Heroines in Romance
Happy New Year, Fated Matesers (This isn’t a great name for us. We need a better name—someone name us)! We’re back, it’s 2019, new year, new us, and we’re starting as we mean to go on with Curvy Heroines, because, in the words of Julie Murphy, Every Body is a Swimsuit Body. Jen and I love a curvy heroine, and the men who love them, and so curvy romances are OUR FAVES.
Next week, we’re getting into Demons! We’ve met Cade, the prince of Rothkalina (the Rage Demonarchy) and his brother Rydstrom, its deposed King, before — they were in the Talisman’s Hie, and in Néomi & Conrad’s book. Next week, we tackle Cade & Holly’s story, Dark Desires After Dusk, with Rydstrom & Sabine’s book Kiss of a Demon King two weeks later. We highly recommend reading these two close together!
UPDATE 1/20/21 - We did it again! Don’t miss a brand new set of recommendations in S03.23 - Curvy Heroines Redux!
Show Notes
- In the summer of 2018, Jen and a bunch of people on Twitter discussed Nine Rules to Break While Romancing a Rake using the hashtag #9RulesRake.
- Sarah also has a curvy heroine romance that is coming in July! Brazen & the Beast has a gorgeous curvy heroine on the cover.
- Just a reminder that Jenny Crusie is completely awesome, and Bet Me is an amazing book.
- Courtney Milan has lots to say about romance. All of her books are amazing, but we talked about The Heiress Effect.
- Never Sweeter by Charlotte Stein was awareded the platinum medal in Jen's "Who Did It Better in the Library" post.
- Romancelandia often recommends books with curvy and fat heroines, and there are quite a few thoughtful pieces about how we think aobut these characters our ourselves.
- Naima Simone writes very excellent books and Jen & Sarah want this one right now.
- Olivia Dade is an advocate for fat women in romance, and Jen and Sarah both loved this thread and want to read books about all these heroines.
- Check out the full transcript for this episode.
TRANSCRIPT
Sarah MacLean 0:00
Okay, okay. Hi. You're listening to Fated Mates. This is Curvy Heroines Week.
Jen Prokop 0:07
I'm Jen Prokop, otherwise known as @JenReadsRomance and my fearless companion...
Sarah MacLean 0:13
Sarah MacLean. I like to write books, and I like to read books about curvy heroines. I like to write books about curvy heroines, too. I'm writing one right now, actually.
Jen Prokop 0:23
You've written many a great book about curvy heroines. And if you haven't read Nine Rules to Break When Romancing a Rake, you can start there.
Sarah MacLean 0:32
That's really nice.
Jen Prokop 0:34
I have, you know, I'll put in the show notes. The picture I gave it to my friend Elizabeth to read and she put it back on my desk at work, with a post-it note on it and it just said, "delicious".
Sarah MacLean 0:46
Oh, that's so, thank you, Elizabeth. That's very kind. But we're not talking about my book this week. That's all. That's the Sarah part of the show.
Jen Prokop 0:55
Yes.
Sarah MacLean 0:56
Jen. Why do we like curvy heroines so much?
Jen Prokop 1:01
Cuz I am a curvy heroine.
Sarah MacLean 1:03
Yeah, me too.
But besides just wanting to see yourself on the page, which is a valid reason.
Jen Prokop 1:09
Okay, so here's what it is for me, it's always back to who deserves and HEA, and I think there are so many ways in which our media celebrates beautiful women. And I like to see that all women are beautiful. All women deserve love. And that's it. I say that to people, I say this to my students all the time. You're going to fall in love one day and the person you fall in love with is going to be beautiful to you. And I think that books with curvy heroines, I don't know they just really hit that mark for me and we talked about your book but the other book that did it first and did it best for me was Bet Me.
Sarah MacLean 1:47
Jenny Crusie.
Jen Prokop 1:49
When I read that book the first time I just thought, I don't know, it just really it felt revelatory, and so talking about books with curvy heroines i think is near and dear to our heart. So you tell me why you think it's important.
Sarah MacLean 2:03
Well, I think you just sort of hit the nail on the head. I actually think that the best thing about curvy heroine romances is that they tend to hold a mirror up to all women and maybe just humans in general, but this sort of sense that even at our most flawed, even when we sort of look at ourselves and say, and see, we see all the parts of us that are wonky, somebody who loves us, just sees the most perfect person and the most beautiful parts of us. And that is a joy to read. And it's a joy to experience in life when you're with your friends or your loved ones. And that's why I love, that's why I love these books, but actually you bring up the Jenny Crusie's Bet Me makes me think like is it possible Bet Me was the first one because prior to Jenny, I mean, in the early days of romance, heroines were perfect. Like really, really perfect. Like every book had a knight hero who could span the heroines waist with his hands,
Jen Prokop 3:05
Right. His manly hand.
Sarah MacLean 3:07
I think I think Jenny might have been the first one. I'm going to do some research and figure that out. And we'll put it in show notes if we find something earlier than that, but could be.
Jen Prokop 3:16
Yeah, and maybe, maybe that's why but I mean, I read that book and remember thinking it changed me like something fundamentally changed in me when I read that.
Sarah MacLean 3:24
Well, do you think it was just that suddenly like romance heroines could be something else, could be more, different, better...
It just opened up a door and I think it opened up a door in my own brain too.
Sure. All right, you start.
Jen Prokop 3:36
okay. I'm going to start actually because I really liked what you said about like a curvy heroine, right, we see her through her own eyes, but also through society's eyes. And a book that I think plays with this brilliantly, is called The Heiress Effect by Courtney Milan. It's a historical, it's part of the Brothers Sinister series. And that's book number two, if you could read it as a stand-alone and I think this book is amazing. I don't know if you've read it, but I loved it.
I think this heroine, her name is Jane, is essentially using the way society views her as a weapon to fool society itself. I don't know that I've ever read anything like it. And so it is profoundly feminist. There's this really amazing scene at the beginning where she describes them trying to, like make her waist many inches smaller than it is by like using corsets. And I like flinched as I read it, but then she actually wears like really outrageous outlandish clothes and she does it, like she realizes they don't think she's beautiful, that they mock her, and that she's going to use that against them to essentially like escape their notice because she has a huge dowry of 100,000 pounds, and she does not want to get married. And so she is playing this game where she's using their perception of them as a way essentially of making herself, like she's it's like at one point the hero realizes she's essentially acting like a butterfly right like she's beautiful and wearing bright colors and it but it's poisonous. And I just think this book, along with having this amazing curvy heroine, one of the smartest heroines, this amazing hero, the cast of characters, the social justice aspect of it. The hero sister. Her name is her name is free. She's like vote fighting for voting rights and the whole book is just from top to bottom, just a real treat. And so the other thing I liked about it is it Jane is clearly a curvy heroine and a Oliver loves her. It's the kind of woman he likes, but it's not the most important thing about who she is. And we and Oliver come and she herself come to see that about her about her.
Sarah MacLean 5:50
Courtney, if you've never read a book by Courtney, this is a really good place to start actually, Courtney does so many things beautifully, but the thing that always comes back to me with Courtney's books. The heroes are always so incredibly Noble.
Jen Prokop 6:04
Oh, yeah.
Sarah MacLean 6:05
They act with such strong conviction. And they know what's right. Capital r. They will do everything to make sure that they behave in that way. But they move the world they moved the needle toward that.
Jen Prokop 6:20
Oh, it's so good. Well, and I'll tell you what the other thing about this is this is a book that we've talked about, like the setup, right? Like so Courtney like sets up this whole thing where essentially the hero is supposed to take her down, and I sort of thought, Oh, hi know where this is going. I did not know where it was going at all. And it was like their struggle to be the best versions of themselves, both for themselves, and for each other. This book is perfect. I loved it.
Sarah MacLean 6:49
You should read a book by Courtney Milan.
Jen Prokop 6:51
Absolutely. What about you, Sarah?
Sarah MacLean 6:54
I'm going to talk about a different kind of hero. A very, very different kind of hero, who is not, does not move toward an nobility instantly. So I want to talk about Charlotte Stein. I want to talk about Charlotte Stein basically every day.
Jen Prokop 7:11
All day.
Sarah MacLean 7:12
All the time. If you've never read a book by Charlotte, you absolutely need to rectify that
Jen Prokop 7:16
and probably clear an entire day of your schedule because once you start you will not be able to stop
Sarah MacLean 7:23
you will just buy every Charlotte sign book one after another, and it will just you'll lose your day to great delicious joy. Because the best way for me to describe how Charlottewrites a book is It's like watching two people fall in love inside a phone booth while you're in it with them.
Jen Prokop 7:42
Oh my god, that's so perfect.
Sarah MacLean 7:44
And you're just like, it's too much. It's too much to watch and I feel weird about watching it but I can't stop like it's just
Jen Prokop 7:53
right.
Sarah MacLean 7:53
You're just in there. And these two deeply imperfect people Charlotte has never written a perfect character. I think in any of her books.
Jen Prokop 8:01
but she might be a perfect writer
Sarah MacLean 8:02
For sure. I think Charlotte is one of the very best writers writing today. She's such a writer's writer. I feel like every writer I speak to acknowledges we all just wish we could write like Charlotte.
Jen Prokop 8:14
It must be intimidating. I've actually I'm like, I just get to read it and be like, this is amazing. I can't even imagine like imposter syndrome must take over all of you when you read her book.
Sarah MacLean 8:23
Anytime I read a book by Charlotte, I end up thinking to myself, like, well, there goes three weeks of me sitting around feeling bad about myself.
Jen Prokop 8:34
But I want it I don't I mean, anyway, so I can't say enough good things, obviously, about Charlotte. But this book is called Never Sweeter. And you guys,
I know I just like fell over. It's so good.
Sarah MacLean 8:46
All right, I'm gonna I'm gonna do the setup. And you're gonna go Oh, Sarah, I don't know. So the premise is, it's setting College and the heroine who is very curvy in high school was relentlessly bullied by a group of boys to the point where she is run off the road and down a pretty dangerous cliff by these boys who are who are torturing her with bullying, and there's no good reason why she's just like all bully, there's no good reason why. And she's run off the road. And that's the beginning of the book. And then immediately we cut to her in college, and she goes into a class and sitting inside in the class is one of her bullies. And he is there to make amends. She's horrified. She's terrified. She's all the emotions that you would be. She wants away from him. She wants out of this, this entire world. But he is there and he's in college with her and he wants to apologize. He wants to make it right. And they fall in love. And it is
Jen Prokop 10:05
it's amazing.
Sarah MacLean 10:06
So incredible, because the whole time in your head you're thinking, no, absolutely not. This is not acceptable. And the whole time. I mean, Charlotte just writes this hero who just is working so hard to rectify the past. And this heroine who just is so strong because she's so able to tell him "no", and she's still able to resist it until she realizes that maybe there is something more than resistance. And I don't know I think I'm doing a bad job describing it but I think it's
Jen Prokop 10:44
No you're not
Sarah MacLean 10:45
so beautiful.
I read a book a day, right? I mean, I've read 10,000 that's not an exaggeration, romance novels in my lifetime. And I think it is rare that you can come across a book where you just you can't see how the writer is going to finish it. The whole time you're doubting that it's even possible to do it to pull it off and then somehow Charlotte just does and it's beautiful. It's one of the most beautiful romances I think ever written.
Jen Prokop 11:16
I think so too and I think that the curvy heroine part I would say, it's really essential to Lenny's character I think because like when they talk right when they become friends first is that he says I didn't want you going through the world thinking that everyone was going to treat you that way. And I think it's like metaphorically it's some level to like how fat people are treated in the world. Right like we're we're sort of like look away and and I think there's something really beautiful about his love for her is so pure and again, it's like that same thing we talked about when you talked about escort books, right? Everyone deserves love, like your physical package should have nothing to do with like whether or not you are deserving of someone loving you profoundly and deeply and I think this book at every single, every single layer does that so well. That's amazing.
Okay, so my final one is way lighter, a jaunt really but we know we have to come right out of the deep well that Never Sweeter will will put you in and all of Charlotte's books really but I love a book like really love in a way like I don't know every single bell rings on my belt. It's called Playing It Cool by Amy Andrews and it's a part of a whole series all the like playing at whatever books are part of a series about Sydney rugby team, which I know nothing about rugby, but I've really liked all these books and the main character is a guy named Dexter and it actually starts off with him. And all of his like sort of buddies on his rugby team are basically like, hey, there's your kind of girl on the sidelines, because she's like a bigger curvier woman and her...her name is Harper and...
Sarah MacLean 12:58
can I just interrupt and say Love that moment in this book we're like you're not because we have talked a lot about curvy heroines who are feel uncomfortable in their skin and you know, God knows that's real but there's something remarkable when in the first moment of the book like a huge an entire rugby team is like that one
Jen Prokop 13:19
that Yeah, like there's your kind of girl and I remember being like but wait like I literally I think I went back and reread it like wait a minute, is that what I think it means that they all know that he he likes curvy women and they see one and they're like, there she is the one for you. I love this book was really great and, and what happens is they end up dating they end up like falling in love but because he is so fixated on rugby, like his sort of like you know, I only have this short I'm a professional athlete and my time on this team is going to be short so I don't really have time for like serious like a serious girlfriend like that's just going to mess me up. They sort of have this like low key like where she starts thinking that he's keeping her under wraps. And she's like, Is it because of the way I look? And he's like, no, it's because I really just wanted to focus on rugby. And you know, there's this amazing scene though, at the end. And I think this is also part of why I love this book. I don't think it's super spoilery where she goes to it, they go to a benefit, and they go separately, and she is dressed in this like knockout dress. And every man in the room can see how beautiful she is. And it is killing Dexter because he knows like, you know, he's like, everyone now sees what I've seen all along. And I just this book, like really worked for me at every level. I think, you know, the camaraderie between Dexter and his team. The affair between the two of them per work is like a muralist and her insistence that she deserves to have someone who loves her. Absolutely, and she doesn't need to be second best to anybody's job. I don't care if it's rugby or not. Basically and she I just love this book. I loved everything about it.
Sarah MacLean 15:03
Yeah, it's a great read.
Jen Prokop 15:05
And it's like, it's like a fun read, right? Like, it's not really serious, you know, but I just think it's like a great fun read with like, here's a curvy heroine who is like, I deserve more. And hero has to be like, Yes, you're right, dear. What do you need for me?
Sarah MacLean 15:17
Also, I think sports heroes in that moment are pretty great. Like the dichotomy between like the super sporty like celebrity hero and the normal girl who you know,
Jen Prokop 15:30
right
Sarah MacLean 15:30
looks like a normal person is really delicious. Always. That's why books like the wall of winning pegan me work so well. You know, because there is that sort of literal body perfection versus just ordinary everyday.
Jen Prokop 15:44
Right. And I one of the things I love is the authors who make space for women to feel the way they feel about their bodies and to know they deserve love and that they're going to get it right that romance is going to deliver that to them. That's really essential and important to me.
Sarah MacLean 16:00
So, my last book is kind of an older title. It is the first Bela Andre book I ever read. It's called take me and fun fact. I loved this book so much that I then went to the RWA national conference. And I like stalked Bella into and forced her to be my friend. And now we are friends. But I love take me so much. This is the same kind of I mean, you you guys are going to get a real sense of the kind of heroine curvy heroine I look for but the heroine of this book has been best friends with one half of a set of like ridiculously attractive twins for her whole life. Since they were four or five years old, and her best friend has always been her best friend and his twin brother has always been sort of aloof and not really present in her life and not really showing much interest in her, and she of course has had like this crazy unrequited crush on him forever. And I love an unrequited love story. I love unrequited love. Yeah, it's good. And so essentially what happens is she suddenly like so he's, you know, a millionaire. This was in the ages of millionaires, you guys, this predates billionaire,
Jen Prokop 17:23
Do better.
Sarah MacLean 17:25
And he's this sort of like Star millionaire, amazing, you know, all around person. And they end up but she's an interior decorator and he's a he's a developer, real estate guy. And he takes her he hires her basically to help decorate a client's house. And it becomes really clear, really quickly. I think early in the book, there's like a drinking mishap and then there's like an almost sex moment and then becomes very clear very quickly that like he's had feelings for her for a long time. And he ends up flying her to Italy to like shop for stuff for...
Jen Prokop 18:11
For his like mansion or whatever.
Sarah MacLean 18:14
Yeah, and so they fly to Tuscany and they have this like incredible weekend Tuscany and she the whole time she's like at some point the other shoe is gonna drop in this like fantasy that I have fallen into with this guy who I've been in love with for my whole life. It's just going to fall apart because he's never dated anybody who isn't like size double zero. And then she sort of sabotages it just by virtue of not believing in herself, and it's so real, like it's so painfully real because he's like, I can't convince you of what I see. And until you're able to see what I see, I don't know how to be with you. I don't know how to make this work and it is real honest. And you know, I think this is the thing that a lot of people do like we naturally as humans sabotage relationships because of lots of reasons and this is it just felt so authentic and I still to this day I love bellus books so much so many of them I love but this one still to me is like the perfect Bella Andre book.
Jen Prokop 19:17
Well and I think that's the other thing that any imperfection that any character has to deal with but especially body image issues really are about self acceptance and I think that's why it's it's not enough for your romantic partner to accept you the good books the best books are then about "I accept myself" and I think that's why they really like hit you right in the heart because all of us are working on ourselves. And and i think that all books have characters working on themselves, but somehow this struggle, really, maybe it just speaks to me personally, but when it's good, it's it's a book I just really love and they stay in rotation. And I've read and read read them and have them in multiple formats. And that's when I know it's like a real keeper for me.
Sarah MacLean 20:07
Yeah. So shout out your favorite curvy heroines. Tell us on twitter hashtag #fatedmatespod. Don't forget that if you'd like us to tackle a trope for you, you should let us know. And we will do with pleasure.
Jen Prokop 20:22
So, if you are enjoying our podcast, we would love for you to subscribe to it. Give us a rating and share it with your friends online on Facebook, on Twitter, in the coffee shop wherever you might be talking about your favorite podcast.
Sarah MacLean 20:38
Okay, everyone, well, that was curvy girls. If you are a writer out there thinking about writing a curvy romance, please do. We need more of them. I saw Naima Simone tweeted about one a couple of days ago and I'm super excited for that one. Naima, write faster.
Next week. We are back to IAD and we are on book number five. And the demons are coming you guys I'm so excited. The first book is Dark Desires After Dusk, which is Cade & Holly's book as you know we've met Cade and rods from his deposed King or dethroned King. I don't know. I don't know what the word is will sort it out before that episode. But we've met him twice. He was part of the Hie with Bowen and Mari, and he is a pretty significant piece of this Neomi and Conrad book, The Neomi and Conrad book, which we did last week. So we've got Cade and Holly up first. It's a road trip romance, and it's one that we have a lot to say about. But here's what I'm going to say because now we've finished recording both Cade and Rydstom's books.
And Jen and I think that you should probably read them both back to back if you can. If you have the time, because Rydstrom and Sabine's book, which is Kiss of a Demon King, and Cade & Holly's book, which is--what did I just say?--Dark Desires After Dusk--work in concert with each other. They're overlapping for quite a bit of time. And I think that once you've read both, both books get better.
So we are back next week with Cade and Holly's book and they still intend to release Rydstrom & Sabine's episode in two weeks after that. So there's plenty of time for your reading in order. Real life real time IAD readers were reading them six or eight months apart, so you'll be fine. We just think that you might like it better if you read them both back to back. And we have a lot to say about both of these books and there's a whole lot of conversation coming about horns and we have a special guest for Sabine and Rydstrom's book who's got a great story, and you're going to love it.
So yay! Thanks for joining us again for Fated Mates. We're super excited to have you always. If you are enjoying the podcast, don't forget to subscribe and like and review and tell your friends. Tell your mom or whoever else you would like to tell about us.
Thanks so much, guys.
4: A+, Would Risk Haunting: Dark Needs at Night's Edge
Book 4 is here and so are ghosts! We’re talking Dark Needs at Night's Edge, starring Conrad (the most tortured of the Wroth vampire brothers) and Néomi (the ghost trapped in the house where he’s held hostage while he dries out). We’ll cover heroines with agency, menstrual cycles, virgin heroes and the importance of family. Also, Jen is on about the moon again.
Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, please leave us a like or a review.
Our next read (in two weeks) will be Dark Desires After Dusk — the beginning of the Rage-Demonarchy duology, featuring Cadeon Woede, who is forced to choose between familial loyalty and his human (or is she?!) fated mate, brilliant mathematician, Holly.
Get ready for the read along at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books or your local indie. Also, the Audible versions of IAD are on sale right now -- and WORTH EVERY PENNY! Listen on Audio!
Show Notes
- Ghosts are a human problem and preoccupation.
- According to the Washington Post, "nearly half of the women who were murdered during the past decade were killed by a current or former intimate partner." Huge content warnings for everything in this article.
- The Flame and the Flower, Shanna, and some of Sarah's thoughts about rape in romance.
- We talk about Id a lot on Fated Mates, and we use it as a shorthand for our most primal, deep-rooted desires.
- "All happy families resemble one another; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way" is the famous first line of Anna Karenina. This New York Times article about the many Tolstoy translations is fascinating.
- Kresley Cole isn't the only one to use the menstrual cycle as a symbol; but others wonder why menstruation is almost always absent from fiction.
- A crescent moon (or "sliver moon" as Neomi calls it) is never up at midnight. Literally never.
- Jen rants a lot about first person narration a lot on Twitter, but it's super OTT, so just read this thread about first person narration that was started by Rebekah Weatherspoon.
- Shortly after they recoreded this episode, Jonathan Franzen stanned for third person narration and Jen realized she's just a handmaiden to the patriarchy.
- Jen strongly recommends Heavy: An American Memoir by Kiese Laymon. She saw Kiese Laymon being interviewed by Lolly Bowean at the Chicago Humanities Festival, and it was amazing.
- All people deserve birth control that's right for them.
- Some romance readers love breaking in the ponies with a virgin hero.
- Arguably, agency is the most important character trait.
- There are 45 cemetaries in New Orleans, 31 are historic, and 5 are listed in the National Register of Historic Places.
- If you're planning to write a sitcom, know the formula.
- In IAD, it's Thrane's Key; it Harry Potter, it's a time turner.
- Get yourself some IAD ringtones.
- Holly Ashwin and Cadeon Woede are up next in Dark Desires After Dusk.
Lost Limb Count
Legs (2)
- Lachlain tears off his own leg to reach Emma. He regenerates. (A Hunger Like No Other)
- Mariketa's skull is fractured and her leg is torn from her body. She heals herself after Bowen lays on the ground. Ivy grows over her and heals her. (Wicked Deeds on a Winter's Night)
Arms (1)
Sebastian pulverizes most of his right arm during the Hie. He regenerates. (No Rest For the Wicked) ** Eyes (1)**
Bowen loses an eye and most of his forehead during the Hie. Mariketa has cursed him and he can't heal until he returns to her. (Wicked Deeds on a Winter's Night)
Hands (1)
- Conrad cuts off his own hand with a rusty axe so he escape the "witched" chains his brothers locked him in. (Dark Needs at Night's Edge)
Horns, Claws, or Wolf Hologram: An AMA with Sarah & Jen
It’s the holidays, and whether you’re the type to hole up on the couch and read, or go for a long walk to escape, we’ve got you covered. Get ready; we’re talking about horns.
Show Notes
- Update: Jen got THREE books for Christmas this year! These two from her brother, and her best friend gives perfect, #onbrand books. Sarah got Thomas Madden's Venice and the Great British Bake Off coloring book. Does that count as a book?
- Sarah loves The Great British Baking Show, so you should watch. Or maybe you would just like to admire silver-fox, Paul Hollywood.
-Here's a 1979 New York Times article about this new craze sweeping the nation: hand-raised pies. Everthing old is new again in Sarah's house!
- Jen no longer has the decorative wooden book item, but she does like to window shop for glass jars full of...things.
- "You can put your weed in there" is an old SNL joke.
- Gatsby's books are a symbol, but maybe more than you wanted to know about how books are put together and how pages are cut.
- Read some more AMAs if you're in the mood, and you know Jen can't wait to read that first one.
- Strawberry Rhubarb pie is Sarah's favorite, and although Jen didn't mention it, a favorite pie she makes every summer is Strawberry Margarita pie.
- Our favorite pie shops in Houston, Northern Michigan, Chicago, and Brooklyn.
- Charlotte Stein and Sophie Jordan are auto-buys, and A Kingdom of Dreams and Dreaming of Youare comfort reads. Sarah's most re-read IAD book is Sweet Ruin, and Jen's is Demon from the Dark.
- Kresley announced in her newsletter a few months ago that the next IAD book is Munro (he's Uilleam's twin brother).
- It's not only romance where we talk about unlikable heroines, but it's also that we only ask women authors if their female characters are likable.
- A quick overview of Gender essentalism.
- A very long twitter thread where all of Romancelandia picked their IAD dream cast.
- Olivia Dade made a list of cinnamon roll heroes.
- The ultimate romance rule is HEA or GTFO (Happily Ever After or Get the Fuck Out). There's also HFN, or Happy For Now. Here's the rest of Jen's Romance Rules.
- More about the the problematic fave
- Your Kink is Not my Kink, a very useful way to be respectful when something just isn't your jam. Also, Sarah would like to remind you that decent people don't yuck other people's yum.
- Jen could write odes to the arms of Linda Hamilton and Angela Basset forever.
- We'll be ringing in 2019 with Neomi and Conrad.
3.5: Holiday Romance
It’s the Holiday Season™️, which means it’s time to talk about Holiday romances! Get ready because there are A WHOLE LOT of books in this show. Also, get ready, because next week, on December 26th, instead of releasing our Dark Needs at Night’s Edge episode, we’re releasing a bonus Ask-us-Anything episode as a special holiday present to you!
Show Notes
Our official IAD reread will resume January 2nd, with Néomi (ghost) & Conrad (vampire) and we have so. many. feelings. SO MANY.
- In case you're curious, here's where Jen learned to properly pronounce Therese Beharrie's name. Therese wrote 2 Christmas books this year: A Wedding One Christmas and Her Festive Flirtation, and Jen liked them both.
- Before Sunrise came out in 1995, a sequel Before Sunset in 2004, and a third Before Midnight in 2013. This New Yorker review is a perfect example of everything Jen hates when people review anything romantic, so hate-read it if you're in the mood.
- Jen completely got the name of that chapter book wrong, it's The Best Christmas Pageant Ever.
- Novellas are really common in romance, maybe more than other genres, and Jen anxioulsy awaits the think-piece explaining why.
- Speaking of novellas: The anthology of Chanukah stories that Sarah mentioned is called Burning Bright; Reindeer Games is an anthology of stories with the snowed-in trope; and in Silver Belles, all the characters are over 40.
- Sarah described the cover of A Holiday of Love as an example of a certain type of old-school book package. But just last year, A Christmas to Remember with Lisa Kleypas, Lorraine Heath, Megan Frampton, and Vivienne Lorret followed the same exact cover protocol.
- Epistolary novels are super fun to read (Jen's favorite is Where'd You Go, Bernadette, Sarah is--unsurprisingly--very pro epistolary romance; her favorite is Kleypas's Love in the Afternoon), but Jen's pretty interested in how they are changing in the age of the internet.
- All three of the books in the Men at Work series by Tiffany Reisz are delightful, but the Thanksgiving one is an absolute classic.
- Last year, Jen ranked Thanksgiving romances for The Book Queen.
- How the Dukes Stole Christmas is pretty great, and here's where Jen talked about Joanna Shupe's novella on twitter.
3: A Great Lay or All the Knowledge in the World: Wicked Deeds on a Winter's Night
We’re three books into IAD this week, and it is happening! We're joined by the brilliant Adriana Herrera to talk Wicked Deeds on a Winter's Night, starring Bowen (the werewolf trapped in a tunnel of fire) and Mariketa the Awaited (the witch who is going to run him ragged)!
Adriana, Jen & Sarah cover everything from Snow White to trauma survivors, jungle warfare to May-December romances, sexism and Cardi B. And we still find time to fangirl over Kresley's heroines.
Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, please leave us a like or a review.
Our next read (in two weeks) will be Dark Needs at Night's Edge — complete with a broken hero tied to a bed (vampire, obvi) and a haunting heroine who just wants to be seen (literally). This one makes for a LOT of opinions among IAD fans...you won’t want to miss it.
Get ready for the read along at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books or your local indie. Also, the Audible versions of IAD are on sale right now -- and WORTH EVERY PENNY! Listen on Audio!
Show Notes
Show Notes
- Our special guest this week is romance author Adriana Herrera. American Dreamer, her debut novel with Carina Press, comes out in March of 2019.
-Jen interviewed Adriana about domestic violence in romance for the Smart Bitches.
- Jen and Sarah both loved The Opposite of You, a food truck romance by Rachel Higginson, and Sil at Book Riot made a list of food truck romances.
- Kresley's historical trilogy is called The MacCarrick Brothers, and you can get all 3 bundled together, of course.
- There's nothing more amazing than warring think-pieces. So here's Huffington Post and Slateteaching us about fuckboy, and Jezebel telling us how they're doing it wrong.
- The five witches' castes are warrior, healer, enchantress, conjurer, and sorceress. Jen's going to make a Buzzfeed Quiz that tells you which witch strength you'd have. (This is a lie. Jen does not know how to make Buzzfeed quizzes. But it's a good idea, right?)
-Speaking of vibrators, the best Romancelandia blog is the Bawdy Bookworms, which features review of both books and sex toys!
- Here's a serious video explainer of the Hero's Journey, and also a slightly more silly one.
- This blog is dedicated to looking at feminism and Snow White in American culture.
- Deconstruct Disney for yourself or for your kids.
- There's an IAD wiki, and it's pretty useful for when you're listing Hekate, Haxa, and can't remember the third one is Hela.
- As symbols, apples do a lot of heavy lifting.
- Mirrors and feminism have a long complicted history. And since we're talking action movies, check out this think piece by Carolyn Petit about feminism, movie criticism, and John Wick's house of mirrors. And then I found this article about Sylvia Plath's senior thesis at Smith and it's very far afield from the current topic, but this is a super interesting read.
- There isn't a video for Cardi B's Money yet, but here are the lyrics.
- How young women have internatlized the Girl Power vs. Feminism dichotomy.
- There's a famous image that illustrates the difference between equality and equity. It's most often used in the context of race, but can be used as a way to envision any kind of oppression.
- Romance has been thinking about consent for a long time. Jen wrote a review of a graphic novel for teenagers called What Does Consent Really Mean?
- Our next Dark Needs at Night's Edge is next.
Lost Limb Count
(Leg - 2, Arm - 1, Eye - 1)
Lachlain tears off his own leg to reach Emma. He regenerates. (A Hunger Like No Other)
Sebastian pulverizes most of his right arm during the Hie. He regenerates. (No Rest For the Wicked)
Bowen loses an eye and most of his forehead during the Hie. Mariketa has cursed him and he can't heal until he returns to her. (Wicked Deeds on a Winter's Night)
Mariketa's skull is fractured and her leg is torn from her body. She heals herself after Bowen lays on the ground. Ivy grows over her and heals her. (Wicked Deeds on a Winter's Night)
2.5: Brother's Best Friend Romances
Next week we’re going to get into Werewolves and Witches with Wicked Deeds on a Winter’s Night, but this week, we’re so excited to talk best friend’s sibling/sibling’s best friend romances with one of our favorite people: Kate Clayborn!
Show Notes
Kate Clayborn writes awesome books, but her romance think pieces at Frolic aren't too be missed.
There's nothing more hilarious than reviving old twitter threads, and in this one Kate and Talia Hibbert talk IAD.
The Game Maker series will get its own episodes, don't worry. Jen was thinking about saving this chastity belt article for then, but really, why wait?
Best of Luck was just named one of Amazon's Best Romance of December, which is as it should be. The second book in the series, Luck of the Draw, was on Sarah's Best of 2018 list for the Washington Post.
Sarah's twitter thread where people described what they'd do if they won a billion dollars is pretty fun to read. But really, there's a reason we all love that daydream.
This month, the Ripped Bodice is spearheading The Great Big Romance Read and maybe you can find a bookstore, library, or blog where you can talk about Pride by Ibi Zoboi.
The American Dream is complicated, college is expensive, and all of it freaks Jen out if she thinks about it too much.
Sarah wrote a YA historical! It's called The Season.
This is a good take on why the best friend's sibling trope is so powerful.
Sinner by Sierra Simone. She talks about her writing here. Jen doesn't really think it counts as blasphemy, but she looked it up just to be sure.
Some more about insprirational romance, and although we didn't mention her name on the podcast, Jen thinks Piper Huguley writes the best inspirational romance out there. She wrote about Piper's book The Mayor's Mission and Sarah's book Day of the Duchess in this piece on miscarriage in romance.
Clean Breaks by Ruby Lang. But when this podcast went live, it was an even better deal to buy all three books in the Practice Perfect series bundled together.
2: The Best Led Zeppelin Song is by Pink Floyd: No Rest for the Wicked
We’re two books in this week, reading No Rest for the Wicked, starring Kaderin the Cold-hearted and Sebastian Wroth, participating in the Talisman Hie…Kresley’s version of The Amazing Race.
Sarah & Jen cover everything from pop-culture in romance novels to the lengths we’ll go for the people we love, and the immense trust required when we fall in love…all while marveling at the way Kresley sets the stage for a series that will subvert tropes and genres again and again.
Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, please leave us a like or a review.
Our next read (in two weeks) will be Wicked Deeds on a Winter’s Night — and the witches are coming! WDOAWN is the story of Bowen MacRieve (werewolf) and Mariketa the Awaited (witch)…and the book that really breaks open the wide world of IAD. We’ll be joined by the brilliant Adriana Herrera, and you won’t want to miss it. Get ready for the read along at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books or your local indie.
Show Notes
Some fun facts about The Amazing Race.
The Valkyeries in mythology, and maybe you didn't notice that "Val Hall" is a play on Valhalla.
Vampires in pop culture & literature.
Remember your high school English teacher talking about characters who are foils of each other? This is not to be confused with your algebra teacher talking about how to solve quadratic equations.
On Urban Dictionary, I want to kiss the person who defined Frigid it as "An outdated, Victorian term used to describe women who aren't interested in sex. Only used today by drunk men in bars to explain why the woman they attempted to pick up wasn't interested."
A wacky look at some potential real life examples of time travel.
Just out of curiosity, this is what you'll find if you google "Bad Ass Estonian General." IMPRESSIVE.
Sarah's wet noodle joke is part of a long literary tradition where vampires just need a good dose of viagra.
All about beta heros, cinnamon roll heroes, and a link to a lot of talk about the latter from Ana Coqui's November 2018's #RomBkLove.
Sarah mentions "the vampire chained to a bed" and she's talking about Conrad Wroth, the hero of Dark Needs at Night's Edge (book 4).
Just a brief review of birth control, how we use it, and why it is so important to women's rights.
In case you were wondering why Jen talked about "no one ever has to go to the bathroom." It's a thing. Sarah accused Jen of RUINING ROMANCE, but clearly that's not the case because here we are.
More about lightning and planes.
Chicago's Bubbly Creek. That's real. If you ever want to nerd out on this history, Jen recommends a book called Nature's Metropolis. Honestly, you really have no idea how fascinating grain elevators are.
The short and incomplete list of magical items introduced in this book: Kaderin gives the Furies armor that can't be pierced and a battle axe that can kill Lore beings without having to behead them. The New Zealand coven of Valkyeries has a choker that allows the person wearing it to sing a siren's song. No one knows what happend to the armband that makes the wearer feel overwhelming sexual desire. Amphitrite's tear is a bead that will heal any wound. The Blade of Honorius never misses its target. Thrane's Key was the time-traveling prize in this Hie, and at the end of the book, Riora gives Sebastian one to use at his discretion.
Deus Ex Machina is fun to say, but kind of a bummer when that's how an author gets her characters out of a jam.
All the cool vampires from the mid-2000s carry RAZR phones.
Diamonds are a construct, just like virginity.
Sarah is pro-Kardashian.
Bowen & Mariketa are coming up next, but the thing she was excited about at the end of that book actually happened at the end of Dark Needs at Night's Edge.
Swineherds vs. shepherds, and the only time Jen ever felt truly understood on Reddit.
The Battle of Evermore by Led Zeppelin, and if you think Jen wasn't dying to update Genius with this Kresley Cole reference, you don't know her at all. But maybe the video is more your speed.
1.5: Escort Romances
We know you’re getting excited for No Rest for the Wicked, but before we talk about vampires and Valkyries, let’s talk about escort romances!
The Books
Notes
Sarah and Jen have both loved The Kiss Quotient. Sarah reviewed at for The Washington Post. Jen's been turning her friend Ernie into an occasional romance reader, and live-tweeted his read of TQK.
Escorted by Claire Kent, which is a pen name of Noelle Adams
Romancing the Stone is an 80s movie classic. Kathleen Turner plays a romance writer on an adventure to retreive a missing emerald.
The Smart Bitches made a list of competence porn romances, where all the characters are just really good at their jobs.
Suddenly You by Lisa Kleypas. Here's the Twitter thread where Jenny Nordbak alerts everyone to the sexiness factor.
Burn Down the Night by Molly O'Keefe
The Duke by Gaelen Foley
Claiming the Courtesan by Anna Campbell
Journalist Melissa Gira Grant writes about sex workers and the politics of sex work. You should follow her on Twitter.
The Master by Kresley Cole
Get ready for No Rest for the Wicked
1: We're Gonna Come Back to Biting - A Hunger Like No Other
Sarah & Jen talk A Hunger Like No Other, why reading Alphas in 2018 is a tricky situation, how Kresley instantly changed the game with Lachlain MacRieve, and why Emma's bite sets the standard for the whole series.
Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, a like would be awesome!
Our next read (in two weeks) will be No Rest for the Wicked — the story of Sebastian Wroth (vampire) and Kaderin the Cold-Hearted (valkyrie), and the beginning of the IAD Amazing Race mini-arc!
Show Notes
Why do people hate the word moist?
There really are catacombs below Paris, and they seem very creepy.
Co-ed is a more dated word than you'd expect. According to the Oxford English dictionary, it's been in use since the 1880s. Game, set, and match to The Independent, which printed the following sentence in 1903: "Any college where the girls are commonly called ‘co-eds’ is not a truly co-educational institution."
The TSTL trope in romance heroines.
The Fated Mates trope.
Maybe you all missed the Kavanaugh hearings. I love myself, so we'll just stick to one informative infographic.
Jen's romance book club at 57th Street Books in Chicago's Hyde Park neighborhood. If you're not in Chicago, bookstores and libraries across the country and online will be participating in The Great Big Romance Read in December 2018. Find your people!
Romance isn't the only genre examining old favorites through the lens of #MeToo. Molly Ringwald looked back at John Hughes and The Breakfast Club in The New Yorker. This podcast from WNYC is about pop culture in the #MeToo era.
The list of RITA award winners, sorted by year.
A million articles have been written about Twilight, but I like this one that looks at the big themes that bubble up time and time again.
Alisha Rai has said lots of smart things about toxic masculinity, as it turns out.
Representation in BDSM matters.
Take a crash course in modernity.
A brief overview of Cassandra from Greek mythology.
The Devil in Winter, because everyone loves to read about a sex deal.
According to The Smart Bitches, a magic hoo-hah is "shorthand for the equally illustrious and many powers of the female sex organ, specifically the vagina. The Magic Hoo-Hoo tames the Mighty Wang, and becomes the magnetized true north for the hero’s trouser compass from the point of their first sexual coupling. The Magic Hoo-Hoo brings the hero to monogamous attachment, because after experiencing it, the hero will not be satisfied with anything or anyone else."
I'm sure everyone wants to learn more about moon phases.
Fury is an actual furie.
When we say Lothaire was a big deal, we mean there was an actual Lothaire bus touring around America.
Are you ready for No Rest for the Wicked?
.5: Rock Star Romance
While you're reading A Hunger Like No Other, we're bringing you off-week romance recommendations, on themes! Join us this week for Rock Star Romances.
Idol (VIP Series #1)
Managed (VIP Series #2)
Fall (VIP Series #3)
Sarah’s first Kristen Callihan book, Evernight
Lick (Stage Dive Series #1)
Play (Stage Dive Series #2)
Lead (Stage Dive Series #3)
Deep (Stage Dive Series #4)
Syncopation (Twisted Wishes #1)
Counterpoint (Twisted Wishes #2)
Sarah’s first JN Welsh book, Gigolo All the Way
The book that made Sarah a Rock Star Romance reader, Erika Kelly’s Take Me Home Tonight
Intro: A Wolf Without A Foot
Welcome to Fated Mates! Author Sarah MacLean and critic Jen Prokop launch their fan podcast about Kresley Cole’s Internationally bestselling paranormal romance series, Immortals After Dark. Sarah and Jen introduce themselves and the series, and talk about its place in the romance genre. Topics include feminism, patriarchy, modernity and Moonstruck. Yes, the one with Cher. Also included, an introduction to the first book in the series, A Hunger Like No Other…the book they’ll be rereading for Episode 1.
Buy A Hunger Like No Other at Amazon, B&N, iBooks, Kobo, or your local indie.
Show Notes
Jen wrote about A Hunger Like No Other twice: a Throwback Thursday review, and a look at how the book covers changed over time.
A definition of the Fated Mates trope.
Sarah wrote about fated mates and Kresley Cole on twitter.
What is paranormal romance?
A big overview of PNR
A thoughtful academic definition
Superhero movies after 9/11
The Immortals after Dark on Audio
Robert Petkoff, audiobook narrator of our hearts.
Kresley Cole’s Pocket Books page
Moonstruck, 30 years old and still amazing.
Sarah wrote about the Alpha Male in Romance after the 2016 election.
What is Urban Fantasy?
Have we mentioned that we talk about this series a lot on twitter?
A Google folder with PDFs of articles above that still exist online as of 8/2023)
