06.32: Secret Babies, Friends-to-Lovers and More — Books we love with tropes we don’t
This is the first of three episodes inspired by the incredible time we had at Fated Mates Live in Brooklyn. During the event (which was so so fun we love every single one of you who came!), we asked guests Nikki Payne, Kate Clayborn and Lauren Billings of Christina Lauren to choose an interstitial topic they would like us to tackle on the show. Lauren chose a great one: Exceptions to our rules, meaning…tropes we don’t care for that are done really really well.
So! This one is for everyone who’s ever asked Jen for Secret Baby or Virgin Heroes and anyone who’s ever asked Sarah for Friends to Lovers or Spies. We talk about the books that make us go…not that…but maybe that?
We also want to thank the following publishers and authors for their incredible generosity in making sure that almost every attendee of the Live went home with a romance novel. We are so lucky to share Romancelandia with you: Avon Books, Ballantine Books, Blue Box Press, Dell, Grand Central/Forever, Gallery Books, Lauren Blakely, LJ Evans, Pippa Grant, Ana Huang, Parker S. Huntington & LJ Shen, Elle Kennedy, Avery Maxwell, Ava Miles, Max Monroe, Kathryn Nolan, Amari Nylix, Meghan Quinn, Piper Rayne, P Rayne, Stephanie Rose, Lucy Score, & TL Swan.
Photo credits: Stephanie Keith
Show Notes
We had the very best time at Fated Mates Live, and it wouldn’t have been nearly as fun without Lauren being there. Christina Lauren’s newest book, The Paradise Problem, is out May 14th. Preorder it now, and check out their tour schedule to go see them (they’re even more terrific in person) when they’re near you!
Solar eclipses are very cool, and Jen really should have gone home…. as it turns out, 95% is not anything like 100%! If you have the chance, you should go get in that path of totality. Jen’s brother Erik was at his office rooftop in downtown Cleveland and saw people getting married, and also took a very cool video at totality. New York earthquake twitter was pretty funny, too.
Jen, staunchly anti- virgin heroes since 2018.
Kevin Costner’s speech about luck from Bull Durham.
The book about women in the CIA is called The Sisterhood: The Secret History of Women at the CIA by Liza Mundy.
Books Mentioned This Episode
Sponsors
Pippa Grant, author of Until It Was Love,
available in special edition hardcover, paperback, audiobook, ebook or
with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited
and
Charis Michaels, author of Say Yes to the Princess,
available at Amazon, Apple, Barnes & Noble, Kobo, or
your local independent bookstore
and
Adriana Herrera, author of The Bootlegger’s Bounty,
available in print or ebook, or
with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited
06.31: Romance Novels and Film Adaptation with Yulin Kuang
This week, we’re talking about film adaptation and romance novels with Yulin Kuang, filmmaker and romance novelist. We discuss her work as both a screenwriter and director (she’s writing and directing the adaptation of Emily Henry’s Beach Read), and her debut romance novel, How to End a Love Story, set inside the writers room on a television show between the author of the books the show is adapting (the heroine) and one of the writers in the room (the hero). We talk about why romance adaptations are so difficult to find, why they don’t often hit quite like we expect, and we pitch a few books we’d like to see Hollywood take a crack at.
If you just can’t get enough of us, consider joining our Patreon! You get an extra episode of banter every month and access to the Fated Mates discord, full of people who love romance as much as we do. It’s pretty great, we have to say. Learn more at patreon.com/fatedmates.
Notes
Mr. Sunshine is the name of the K-Drama that Jen’s friend Sunhee recommended, but also everyone loves Crash Landing on You.
If you’re in New York City, you can see Sarah and Yulin together in conversation Thursday, April 11, at The Ripped Bodice in Brooklyn. Get tickets here.
Find and follow Yulin Kuang at her website.
the books
Sponsors
Avery Maxwell, author of Love Notes and Lifelines,
available in print, ebook or
with your subscription to Kindle Unlimited
and
Mila Finelli, author of Mafia Devil,
available in ebook, or
with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited.
S06:30: Preferential Treatment by Heather Guerre & Alpha Submissive Romance
We’re finally diving into alpha submissive romance novels during this deep dive of Heather Guerre’s Preferential Treatment, one of Sarah’s best romances of 2022. We’re talking about the way some romances do such immense work today—this one really digging into something that romance usually steers clear of…money. We know money and power are inexorably intertwined, but what does that really mean when relationships are budding, and when sex is on the line? How do power dynamics shift and move, how does money impact our ability to be honest in a relationship, and most importantly, should billionaires exist? All that and we finally get to the bottom of the Alpha submissive kink, why Sarah thinks it’s great, and why it just doesn’t move Jen.
Oh, and for those of you who’ve been asking for years, Sarah’s doing a mini interstitial in here about books that feature alpha submissives — enjoy!
Read Preferential Treatment at Amazon, or with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited.
Show Notes
Preferential Treatment was on our Best of 2022 list.
Preferential treatment is a word used to describe unfair labor practices.
Here are some of the most common financial problems in relationships and marriages.
Mackenzie Scott’s strategy for getting rid of money through her foundation, Yield Giving.
Sponsors
Sophie Jordan, author of The Duchess,
available at Amazon, Apple, Barnes & Noble, and Kobo.
and
Meghan Quinn, author of Bridesmaid for Hire,
available in print, ebook and audio,
at Amazon, or with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited
and
Sophie Andrews, author of How to Ruin a Wedding,
available at Amazon, or with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited.
S06.29: Beauty and the Beast Romance Retellings
An absolute classic for a reason, we’re talking about Beauty & the Beast today — about the trope itself, about how the 1991 Disney movie brought it back to life (yes, we see you, Dain), and about why we love the vibe of scarred and broken men in a castle being found and renovated by whip smart, bookish heroines. Spoiler: It’s patriarchy.
If you just can’t get enough of us, consider joining our Patreon! You get an extra episode of banter every month and access to the Fated Mates discord, full of people who love romance as much as we do. It’s pretty great, we have to say. Learn more at patreon.com/fatedmates.
Notes
Thanks for joining us last week at Fated Mates Live!! We had a great time, and it was amazing to see everyone. Thanks for being on this journey with us. Stay tuned for photos and more recaps—and for the recording of the Live, which will be our May 1 episode.
We love soundtracks, we played the Dua Lipa song from the Barbie soundtrack, and back in the day, the Pretty in Pink soundtrack was Jen’s jam. Cassette tapes anyone?
We have talked about romance retellings of all kinds with Kate Clayborn, and fairy tale retellings with Zoraida Cordova.
Books Mentioned This Episode
Sponsors
Tobie Carter, author of The Bottom Line,
available at Amazon, Apple, Barnes & Noble, and Kobo.
and
Meghan Quinn, author of Bridesmaid for Hire,
available in print, ebook and audio,
at Amazon, or with your subscription to Kindle Unlimited
and
Hannah Murray, author of Sharing Shane,
available at Amazon, Apple, Barnes & Noble, and Kobo.
S06.28: HEA or GTFO
The cornerstone of the genre. The one thing that, when thrown into question, is guaranteed to enrage every corner of Romancelandia. We’re talking about Happily Ever After (HEA). Its promise, its importance, its relevance to us as readers, writers and people in the world. We talk about what really makes it hard won and deserved for us — which means yes, we’re talking about grovels and yes, we’re talking about third act break ups, and yes, we’re talking about patriarchy. Because of course we are. You’ve probably heard us talk about all the books we’re mentioning here…greatest hits are hits for a reason, y’all.
There are some minor audio issues with this one. Sorry, folks! It does get better at about 15 minutes in.
UPDATE 11/5/26 - The audio quality for this episode has been significantly improved.
If you just can’t get enough of us, consider joining our Patreon! You get an extra episode of banter every month and access to the Fated Mates discord, full of people who love romance as much as we do. It’s pretty great, we have to say. Learn more at patreon.com/fatedmates.
Notes
Ope! Jen’s mic wasn’t fully connected for the first 10 minutes of the episode, so that’s why it sounds terrible. User error on her part, Eric would never. Hang in there, she figures it out!
Let John Green and the good folks at Crash Course teach you about European History and The Hundred Years’ War.
The 2024 Audie Award winners included The True Love Experiment for best romance.
Three more days until Fated Mates Live… a handful of tickets are left! Join us!
Looking for all kinds of perfect HEA stickers, check out the Romancelandia Shop!
UPDATE: The book Sarah was looking for when she was talking about Enemies to Lovers was Johanna Lindsey’s Prisoner of My Desire. All the content warnings, friends…but if you do wade in, don’t miss our chat with Joanna Shupe where we talk about it from Season 1.
Books Mentioned This Episode
Sponsors
Lorraine Heath, author of In Want of a Viscount,
available in print, ebook and audiobook, wherever books are sold
Amazon, Apple, Barnes & Noble, Kobo, and your local indie.
and
P. Rayne, author of Moonlit Thorns,
available in print, ebook and audio,
at Amazon, or with your subscription to Kindle Unlimited
and
Avery Maxwell, author of Falling into Forever,
available in print, ebook and with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited
S06.27: Enemies to Lovers
A classic among classics, we’re talking enemies to lovers this week! We get to the bottom of what we think of as “enemies,” and how it differs from “rivals-to-lovers” and “friends-to-enemies-to-lovers” and “friends-to-lovers” (jk, we’ll never understand friends-to-lovers). We revisit some of our very favorite romances, talk about stakes, about impossible situations, and about how sexy hating someone can be.
If you just can’t get enough of us, consider joining our Patreon! You get an extra episode of banter every month and access to the Fated Mates discord, full of people who love romance as much as we do. It’s pretty great, we have to say. Learn more at patreon.com/fatedmates.
Our next read along is Heather Guerre’s Preferential Treatment, one of Sarah’s favorite romances of 2022. Get it at Amazon, or with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited.
15 ENEMIES TO LOVERS RECS FROM THIS EPISODE
Notes
Pandora Ravenel owns a boardgame company, but I don’t think she made ouija boards. You should watch Only You (1994), directed by Norman Jewison who also directed Moonstruck! Don’t forget how charming Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants is, a very different vibe from Ripper Street.
Jen thought about Kiss an Angel by Susan Elizabeth Phillips when she read an article about the updating of the gorilla enclosure at the Brookfield Zoo. IYKYK, and if you don't, listen to Jen on Learning the Tropes.
Sarah said there's only one friends-to-lovers romance she likes. It's Christina Lauren's Josh & Hazel's Guide to Not Dating.
Sponsors
Blue Box Press, publisher of Skye Warren’s Blue Moon,
available at Amazon.
and
Parker S. Huntington & L. J. Shen, authors of My Dark Desire,
available in audio, at Amazon, or with your subscription to Kindle Unlimited
S06.26: Himbos in Romance: The Chris Hemsworth Prototype
Sometimes you just have to get to the bottom of something, and that’s what we’re here for. Today, we’re taking an unexpected, unexpectedly thorough look at what might be one of the rarest and most maligned heroes in Romancelandia—the Himbo. He’s darling, he’s sweet, and he’s made of nothing but love and abs. Journey with us as we consider the place of these lovable dummies in the pantheon of this great genre of ours.
We just released a final 25 tickets to Fated Mates LIVE in Brooklyn, NY, on March 23, at the gorgeous William Vale Hotel! Join us, along with Kate Clayborn, Lauren Billings (one-half of Christina Lauren), Nikki Payne, and a roomful of other romance-obsessed listeners for a night of romance shenanigans at a live taping of Fated Mates! While we’re never sure quite how it’s going to go, we can guarantee there will be books, booze and bantr…and you’ll leave full of joy from all the fun. We’ve even got The Ripped Bodice on hand to sell books, and the room will be available for hanging with other Firebirds after the live! Preorder Kate’s The Other Side of Disappearing three days early (and books from everyone else!) from The Ripped Bodice—links, tickets and more info are at fatedmates.net/live.
If you just can’t get enough of us, consider joining our Patreon! You get an extra episode of banter every month and access to the Fated Mates discord, full of people who love romance as much as we do. It’s pretty great, we have to say. Learn more at patreon.com/fatedmates.
Our next read along is Heather Guerre’s Preferential Treatment, one of Sarah’s favorite romances of 2022. Get it at Amazon, or with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited.
Show Notes
If you like Matthew Macfadyen in Pride and Prejudice, perhaps you will also like him on Ripper Street.
Coming to Fated Mates Live this month? Go see a musical or a dance performance or eat some pizza when you’re in New York.
Apparently, we’re all talking about himbos, and because of Ken, apparently 2023 was the year of the himbo.
A truly excellent himbo: Chris Hemsworth in Ghostbusters.
Books Mentioned This Episode
Sponsors
Madison Score, author of Bride or Die,
available at Amazon, or with your subscription to Kindle Unlimited.
and
Alyxandra Harvey, author of The Husband Heist,
available at Amazon, or with your subscription to Kindle Unlimited
and
Lauren Morrill, author of More Than a Feeling,
available at Amazon, or with your subscription to Kindle Unlimited.
S06.25: It's Romance Law!
Y’all enjoyed Romance Science so much, we figured, why not tackle romance law next! This week, we’re discussing wills and trusts, inheritances, guardianship, and more than a few HR violations! We also begin the episode with an important addendum to Romance Science (apologies to the Passion fans in the crowd).
There’s still time for you to join us for Fated Mates LIVE in Brooklyn, NY, at the gorgeous William Vale Hotel, on March 23rd, along with Kate Clayborn, Lauren Billings (one-half of Christina Lauren), Nikki Payne, and a roomful of other romance-obsessed listeners for a night of romance shenanigans at a live taping of Fated Mates! While we’re never sure quite how it’s going to go, we can guarantee there will be books, booze and bantr…and you’ll leave full of joy from all the fun. We’ve even got The Ripped Bodice on hand to sell books, and the room will be available for hanging with other Firebirds after the live! Preorder Kate’s The Other Side of Disappearing three days early (and books from everyone else!) from The Ripped Bodice—links, tickets and more info are at fatedmates.net/live.
If you just can’t get enough of us, consider joining our Patreon! You get an extra episode of banter every month and access to the Fated Mates discord, full of people who love romance as much as we do. It’s pretty great, we have to say. Learn more at patreon.com/fatedmates.
Our next read along is Heather Guerre’s Preferential Treatment, one of Sarah’s favorite romances of 2022. Get it at Amazon, or with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited.
Show Notes
Listen to the Romance Science episode.
Pride & Prejudice won the 2024 romance bracket, hosted by Ali Parker of the RomEverAfter Pod.
Romance biology addendum: the hymen, the Passion episode.
Romance Law probably started with our love of TV Law: LA Law, Ally McBeal, The Good Wife, and Law & Order.
Books Mentioned This Episode
Sponsors
Madison Score, author of Bride or Die,
available at Amazon, or with your subscription to Kindle Unlimited.
and
Chayla Wolfberg, author of Late Night Love,
available at Amazon, or with your subscription to Kindle Unlimited.
and
Alyxandra Harvey, author of The Husband Heist,
available at Amazon, or with your subscription to Kindle Unlimited
S06.24: All Dukes are Roofers: Renovation Romance with Nikki Payne
We’re joined this week by the fabulous Nikki Payne, author of Pride & Protest and this month’s new release Sex, Lies & Sensibility to talk about home renovation romance and why we all love it so much! Is it because of competence? Yes. Because we like it when characters have to walk through fire together? Definitely. Because of the metaphor for our lives and futures? Absolutely. We talk about all these things, and how Old School historical really did the business on this trope. And — a bonus! Sarah finally gets to talk with someone about Jane Austen!
Nikki is joining us at Fated Mates Live! Join us in Brooklyn, NY, at the gorgeous William Vale Hotel, on March 23rd, along with Kate Clayborn, Lauren Billings (one-half of Christina Lauren) and a roomful of other romance-obsessed listeners for a night of romance shenanigans at a live taping of Fated Mates! While we’re never sure quite how it’s going to go, we can guarantee there will be books, booze and bantr…and you’ll leave full of joy from all the fun. We’ve even got The Ripped Bodice on hand to sell books, and the room will be available for hanging with other Firebirds after the live!
Preorder Kate’s The Other Side of Disappearing three days early (and books from everyone else!) from The Ripped Bodice—links, tickets and more info are at fatedmates.net/live.
If you just can’t get enough of us, consider joining our Patreon! You get an extra episode of banter every month and access to the Fated Mates discord, full of people who love romance as much as we do. It’s pretty great, we have to say. Learn more at patreon.com/fatedmates.
Our next read along is Heather Guerre’s Preferential Treatment, one of Sarah’s favorite romances of 2022. Get it at Amazon, or with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited.
Show Notes
Welcome Nikki Payne, author of Sex, Lies, and Sensibility. She’ll be at the Ripped Bodice on Feb 23, and at Fated Mates Live, along with Kate Clayborn, Lauren Billings from Christina Lauren, and a few hundred Magnificent Firebirds on March 23, 2024. You can get signed copies of her books at East City Books in DC.
Jen had to read A Separate Peace in high school and doesn’t have the best memories of it, to be honest.
The mid-90s were a real high tide for Austen adaptions: in 1995 the movies Clueless and Sense and Sensibility and a miniseries of Pride and Prejudice, and the following year the movie Emma.
A little bit more about the rights of American women to have their own bank accounts, but women’s access to fair credit is still unjust.
A few movies we discussed this week: The Money Pit, Something New, and Baby Boom.
Books Mentioned This Episode
Sponsors
Avon Books, publishers of Tessa Bailey’s Fangirl Down,
available at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Kobo, Apple Books or wherever you get your books.
and
Blue Box Press, publishers of Jennifer Armentrout and ’s
Visions of Flesh and Blood: A Blood and Ash/Flesh and Fire Compendium,
available in print and ebook from Amazon.
Fated Mates Live -- Guest Announcement!
We are so so excited to announce our incredible guest lineup for Fated Mates Live in Brooklyn, NY, on March 23, 2024! Get tickets and more info at fatedmates.net/live!
We’ll be joined by some of our very favorites:
Kate Clayborn, Fated Mates five-timer and author of Georgie, All Along and the upcoming (three days after FML!) The Other Side of Disappearing.
Nikki Payne, author of Pride & Protest and the brand new Sex, Lies & Sensibility, and
One half of Christina Lauren! Lauren Billings (aka Ivy Owens) is coming from the other side of the world (ok, LA, but STILL) to join us—and just might have a few early copies of The Paradise Problem to share!
The Ripped Bodice will be on hand to sell books the night of, but we urge you to preorder your books (especially Kate’s latest, The Other Side of Disappearing, which is available early at this event exclusively) before you come at The Ripped Bodice, Brooklyn website! In addition to these amazing authors, we’ll be joined by some of our favorite people, in general, and by so many Firebirds! We’ve reserved the room at The William Vale for after the event so people can hang, make new friends, and meet the authors.
Get tickets and more info at fatedmates.net/live, and preorder books now from The Ripped Bodice!