S03.31: Morality Chain Romance
We’re so thrilled to be talking morality chain romance! We’ve owed this episode to Katee Robert for nearly a year, and we have no excuses for how long this has taken, except that time in 2020 was a flat circle. Here, we get down to business—we tackle the definition of Morality Chain, and how it differs from Dark Romance, how it connects with mafia, criminals, pirates, highwaymen, and the original Alpha.
Check all your Content Warnings before you begin with these books!
Whether you're new to Fated Mates this month or have been with us for all three seasons, we adore you, and we're so grateful to have you. We hope you’re reading the best books this week.
Next week, we’re reading Alexis Daria’s You Had Me At Hola, one of our Best Books of 2020! Find it at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Kobo, or Apple Books.
Show Notes
One very important note: we highly recommend doing a thorough search for content warnings for all the books and movies we mention this week.
We love Katee Robert, who we had on as a guest for the menage interstitial. Katee bid on this item at Kennedy Ryan’s Lift 4 Autism auction. It happens every spring, so keep an eye on this page for the 2021 auction if you’d like to pick the topic for a future interstitial.
This week, Katee released Seducing My Guardian, the 4th book in her SUPER HOT Touch of Taboo series. If you'd like to read a morality chain romance written by Katee, we recommend The Bastard's Bargain.
“In springtime, the only pretty ring time” is from Shakespeare’s As You Like It. It's also possible Sarah knows it from Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. She would like you to believe that it's from the former, but we'll leave you to draw your own conclusions. Either way, “If you liked it then you shoulda put a ring on it,” is from Beyonce.
As it turns out, Chicago is a great town for beach volleyball.
It’s hard not to talk about morality chain & dark romance together, but we think they are inverse tropes. The internet definition of Morality Chain is “is a character who is the reason another character is Good.” Jen and Sarah’s current definition is that in morality chain romance, the Love Interest pulls a hero towards humanity and goodness, while in dark romance, the love interest is pulled down into the hero’s lawless world.
Some examples in pop culture are Spike from Buffy and maybe Barney in How I Met Your Motherr. Also, check out a movie called The Professional, where a child (played by Natalie Portman!) befriends the assassin next door. The Jason Statham one with a kid is called Safe.
The Hero’s Journey is very common character archetype in literature and pop culture, but Sarah and Jen are both very taken with Gail Carriger’s description of the alternative archetype, The Heroine’s Journey.
If you want more about morality chain, so many of Kresley’s books from The Immortals After Dark series will work, so please listen to season one! Our favorites are Dark Needs at Night’s Edge, Lothaire, and Sweet Ruin.
We were divided on whether the character has to be a danger to others in order to qualitfy as morality chain. In the Gamemaker series: The Professional is about an assassin who is a danger to others, while in The Player he’s only a danger to himself.
Jen Porter wrote a long thread about what she thinks of as PEA, or problematic ever after, romance.
Mickey is "kind of a Fagin-y" as a character, but without the antisemitism. In interesting historical facts, Dickens rewrote Oliver Twist later in life to remove all anti-Semitic characteristics from Fagin, after he'd been criticized for the portrayal of the character. Of course, it's not that simple. Read more about it from Deborah Epstein Nord.
Scottie is the main character of Managed, and is classified more as grumpy one/sunshine one, which we argue is just morality chain dialed down.
More about how most writers have a “core story."
Next week, we'll be reading You Had me at Hola by Alexis Daria
MUSIC: Cardi B - Money
S02.07: That's Spelled J-E-H-N: Dark Lover
Woof, you guys. Woof. This week we’re talking a whole different kind of Vampires (not a single one chained to a radiator…we love u, Conrad) — with JR Ward’s Dark Lover — the first in the Black Dagger Brotherhood Series! We’re talking a LOT this week about toxic masculinity, about the world post 9/11, about what we expect from heroines, about the entire BDB series, and about what the heck is going on in these books. We also get all the titles wrong, as usual.
Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, please leave us a like or a review!
In two weeks, we’re getting more current! The read is Sarah’s Pick, Sierra Simone’s Priest, which is an erotic romance in first-person hero POV, featuring a priest and an exotic dancer (NB: She is not Catholic). If sex in church is your concern, maybe skip this one, but also know that there’s a lot fo religious allegory in here that is fascinating and brilliant. Get it at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo or your local indie.
Show Notes
JR Ward's first pen name was Jessica Bird.
Despite Jen's joke about Proust, she's never actually read him.
Some of the most famous vampire books in fiction were Anne Rice's Interview with a Vampire and Queen of the Damned. And let's not forget Twilight.
In romance, you should check out the Argeneau series by Lynsay Sands, or any number of books by Jeaniene Frost. Nalini Singh's Guild Hunters series has a vampire hunter. Sherrilyn Kenyon also has lots of books in this category. In urban fantasy, of course there was the Sookie Stackhouse series, and it's TV adaptation True Blood.
In fact, the 90s were full of vampires in the movies and on TV: Keanu Reeves in Bram Stoker's Dracula, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and if you've never seen it, the opening scene from Blade that Jen mentioned.
Sarah would like you to consider the fact that very few people know who Mary Shelley is, but Francis Ford Coppola made a blockbuster movie with Bram Stoker's name in the actual title because patriarchy is a helluva drug.
Is it romance or urban fantasy?
The JR Ward interview was in Louisville Magazine.
The Wicked Wallflowers interviewed JR Ward and it's just terrific.
Jen read all the RITAs, and she reviewed Consumed in the romantic suspense category and Dearest Ivie in the paranormal category.
All about sawed-off shotguns.
Sarah said John Michael, but OF COURSE she meant John Matthew. Maybe you should read Lover John Matthew and Xhex.
Mary Bly's article about the Black Dagger Brotherhood appears in New Approaches to Popular Romance Fiction.
The Lessers as Incels.
Caldwell is like the world of Gotham... and why it seems so nihilistic.
Beth and Wrath's story continues in The King, or as we like to call it here at Fated Mates, Lover Wrath and Beth Part 2.
It's Lover Phury and Cormia, and then Lover Rhevenge and Ehlena, and Lover Quinn and Blay.
The Susan Faludi book Sarah mentioned is called The Terror Dream: Myth and Misogyny in an Insecure America.
We don't think Beth is a Mary Sue, and JR Ward doesn't either.
A guide to the waves of feminism.
Wellsie is maybe a stand in for Smith vs. Wellesley.
Jen was reading Native Son in college when her professor told her blindness is always a symbol. Oedipus blinded himself, and oracles are seers are often blind. Daredevil is blind and can still kick your ass. The other most famous Blind King Jen could find is in Assassin's Creed.
Next up is Priest by Sierra Simone.
12: Do Not Let the Lykae into the Yankee Candle Store: MacRieve
MacRieve is here and so is friend of the pod, Sierra Simone! We’re so excited to talk about The Full Kresley, what makes erotic romance, The Simone Scale™ of taboo romance, why MacRieve is so tough to read, why Sarah thinks it might be Kresley’s best book, and why Chloe is such a badass. There’s a lot of hysterical laughter, and Sarah is preparing for legal action.
Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, please leave us a like or a review.
In two weeks, we’re starting Kresley’s contemporary series The Game Makers (we’re reading the books in original publication order) with The Professional. Get ready for Wroth Brother fanfic that Kresley herself refers to as “way sexier” then IAD. Get The Professional at Amazon, B&N, Apple Books, Kobo, or from your local Indie.
Show Notes
The NECRWA conference always sounds so great!
I don't even know where to start with Andie Christopher and her Chris Evans obssession.
Avengers Endgame, that ol' chesnut.
We stan Sierra Simone, and we love The Sierra Simone Scale™. Check out her two latest, Misadventures of a Curvy Girl and A Lesson in Thorns.
Debbie Macomber is a queen of small town contemporary romance.
You can't stop me, you can only hope to contain me is a play on a very catchy ESPN phrase from back in the day.
Adriana Herrera wrote about how to ethically write about sexual trauma for Smart Bitches. She also joined us to talk about Food Romances & her most recent release.
Adriana Anders' Under Her Skin explores a story of a woman's traumatic past, as does Long Shot by Kennedy Ryan.
Suzanne from Love In Panels wrote a great explainer about content warnings and why we use them.
This is a powerful critique of sexual violence in Game of Thrones.
Just last year, two books about women and anger were published: Rage Becomes Her by Soraya Chemaly and Good and Mad by Rebecca Traister.
More about emotional dysregulation.
The Black Lyon by Jude Deveraux is an old school classic.
Dick flu is definitely some BDE.
You'd be surprised about how much writer's advice you can find about the evils of the info dump.
There's an entire subreddit dedicated to ranting about Comcast.
Yankee Candle will eff a werewolf up.
You can listen to Kresley on the Wicked Wallflowers podcast.
The story of Sir Walter Raleigh throwing down his cape for Queen Elizabeth to walk over is not historically accurate, but it still makes for a great scene in Shakespeare in Love.
The Fifth Element is a completely rewatchable movie.
All about the Mothman, who, it bears pointing out, Lothaire says exists.
Here's the beginning of Sarah's stalking of Sierra after reading (and loving) Priest.
Next time, we're going off road and have decided we'll be reading the first book in The Game Makers series, The Professional. Here's the reading order for the rest of Fated Mates Season One.
Lost Limb Count
Arms and Hands (8)
- Conrad cuts off his own hand with a rusty axe so he escape the "witched" chains his brothers locked him in. (Dark Needs at Night's Edge)
- Cadeon has both of his hands burned off in the same scene where he loses an eye. There's description of what Cade's baby fingers look like as they are re-growing. It's...kinda gross. (Dark Desires After Dusk)
- Sebastian pulverizes most of his right arm during the Hie. He regenerates. (No Rest For the Wicked)
- Lucia peels all the skin off from her hand in order to free herself from some handcuffs. (Pleasure of a Dark Prince)
- In order to retrieve the ring from La Dorada , Lothaire cuts off her finger. (Pleasure of a Dark Prince)
- Lanthe and Carrow cut off Fegley's hand so they can use his thumb to unlock their torques. He's later killed. (Demon from the Dark)
- After receiving Lothaire's heart in a box, Ellie cuts off her middle finger and sends it to him. (Lothaire)
- Chloe's shoulder is dislocated in the escape from her auction (MacRieve).
Chest and Torso (7)
- Omort severs Rydstrom's spine and punches through his torso in a fight. Sabine saves him and enlists Hag to help heal him. (Kiss of a Demon King)
- Lucia's neck is broken. She regenerates. (Pleasure of a Dark Prince)
- On Torture Island, Regin,
- MacRieve,
- and Brandr are vivisected. It's pretty terrible. (Dreams of a Dark Warrior)
- Declan's skin is peeled off by the Neoptera as a child. (Dreams of a Dark Warrior)
- Lothaire rips out his own heart and sends it to Ellie in a box. (Lothaire)
Head, Face, and Eyes (6)
- Bowen loses an eye and most of his forehead during the Hie. Mariketa has cursed him and he can't heal until he returns to her. (Wicked Deeds on a Winter's Night)
- Cadeon loses an eye and part of his forehead and hair when fighting. It all regenerates. (Dark Desires After Dusk)
- During a rugby match, Garreth has his teeth knocked out and swallows them. (Pleasure of a Dark Prince)
- Lothaire kicks out La Dorada's remaining eye and throws her over a cliff. (Dreams of a Dark Warrior)
- In the Bloodroot Forest, the tree grows over Lothaire's lips and tongue. (Lothaire)
- After she gains her immortality, Chloe's hair grows, but she cuts it off every morning. (MacRieve)
Horns (2)
- Cadeon cuts off his own horns to prove to Holly that he is worthy of being her mate. She tells him to let them grow back (Dark Desires After Dusk)
- Malkolm is captured by his enemies in Oblivion and taken to the city of Ash. The publicly cut off his horns and then intend to kill him, but Carrow saves him. (Demon from the Dark)
Legs and Feet (3)
- Lachlain tears off his own leg to reach Emma. He regenerates. (A Hunger Like No Other)
- Mariketa's skull is fractured and her leg is torn from her body. She heals herself after Bowen lays on the ground. Ivy grows over her and heals her. (Wicked Deeds on a Winter's Night)
- Thronos is chasing Melananthe and loses a foot when a portal closes on it. (Kiss of a Demon King)
Beheading as a Romantic Gesture (4)
- The first time Garreth spies Lucia, it's when she shoots an arrow and beheads a kobold. He notices that it's "a fantastical shot" and he's super into it. Later, he helps her pick up the head because he's a real gentleman like that. (Pleasure of a Dark Prince)
- Later in the book, they are under attack from vampires and Lucia asks him to help. Garreth promises to "give her their throats" and beheads two vampires. But she's upset about it because of a previous bad experience with cannibalism. (Pleasure of a Dark Prince)
- Malkolm beheads men that attacked Carrow in Oblvion, and he throws them to prove he's a worthy mate. (Demon from the Dark)
- Declan fights and beheads several creatures as they escape Torture Island, including squeezing one dude so hard his eyes pop out and then he twists his head off. (Dreams of a Dark Warrior)
Beheading as a Non-Romantic Gesture
- Ellie cuts off Lothaire's head, leaving a slender 1/8 of an inch left. It was kind of an accident, but he deserved it. (Lothaire)
Maybe?
- Does Garreth's losing his connection with his mortal soul count? (Pleasure of a Dark Prince)
- When Soroya inhabited Ellie's body, she subjected her to a full Brazilian wax. Ellie doesn't realize it's happened until she takes control of her body again. (Lothaire)
4: A+, Would Risk Haunting: Dark Needs at Night's Edge
Book 4 is here and so are ghosts! We’re talking Dark Needs at Night's Edge, starring Conrad (the most tortured of the Wroth vampire brothers) and Néomi (the ghost trapped in the house where he’s held hostage while he dries out). We’ll cover heroines with agency, menstrual cycles, virgin heroes and the importance of family. Also, Jen is on about the moon again.
Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, please leave us a like or a review.
Our next read (in two weeks) will be Dark Desires After Dusk — the beginning of the Rage-Demonarchy duology, featuring Cadeon Woede, who is forced to choose between familial loyalty and his human (or is she?!) fated mate, brilliant mathematician, Holly.
Get ready for the read along at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books or your local indie. Also, the Audible versions of IAD are on sale right now -- and WORTH EVERY PENNY! Listen on Audio!
Show Notes
- Ghosts are a human problem and preoccupation.
- According to the Washington Post, "nearly half of the women who were murdered during the past decade were killed by a current or former intimate partner." Huge content warnings for everything in this article.
- The Flame and the Flower, Shanna, and some of Sarah's thoughts about rape in romance.
- We talk about Id a lot on Fated Mates, and we use it as a shorthand for our most primal, deep-rooted desires.
- "All happy families resemble one another; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way" is the famous first line of Anna Karenina. This New York Times article about the many Tolstoy translations is fascinating.
- Kresley Cole isn't the only one to use the menstrual cycle as a symbol; but others wonder why menstruation is almost always absent from fiction.
- A crescent moon (or "sliver moon" as Neomi calls it) is never up at midnight. Literally never.
- Jen rants a lot about first person narration a lot on Twitter, but it's super OTT, so just read this thread about first person narration that was started by Rebekah Weatherspoon.
- Shortly after they recoreded this episode, Jonathan Franzen stanned for third person narration and Jen realized she's just a handmaiden to the patriarchy.
- Jen strongly recommends Heavy: An American Memoir by Kiese Laymon. She saw Kiese Laymon being interviewed by Lolly Bowean at the Chicago Humanities Festival, and it was amazing.
- All people deserve birth control that's right for them.
- Some romance readers love breaking in the ponies with a virgin hero.
- Arguably, agency is the most important character trait.
- There are 45 cemetaries in New Orleans, 31 are historic, and 5 are listed in the National Register of Historic Places.
- If you're planning to write a sitcom, know the formula.
- In IAD, it's Thrane's Key; it Harry Potter, it's a time turner.
- Get yourself some IAD ringtones.
- Holly Ashwin and Cadeon Woede are up next in Dark Desires After Dusk.
Lost Limb Count
Legs (2)
- Lachlain tears off his own leg to reach Emma. He regenerates. (A Hunger Like No Other)
- Mariketa's skull is fractured and her leg is torn from her body. She heals herself after Bowen lays on the ground. Ivy grows over her and heals her. (Wicked Deeds on a Winter's Night)
Arms (1)
Sebastian pulverizes most of his right arm during the Hie. He regenerates. (No Rest For the Wicked) ** Eyes (1)**
Bowen loses an eye and most of his forehead during the Hie. Mariketa has cursed him and he can't heal until he returns to her. (Wicked Deeds on a Winter's Night)
Hands (1)
- Conrad cuts off his own hand with a rusty axe so he escape the "witched" chains his brothers locked him in. (Dark Needs at Night's Edge)
2: The Best Led Zeppelin Song is by Pink Floyd: No Rest for the Wicked
We’re two books in this week, reading No Rest for the Wicked, starring Kaderin the Cold-hearted and Sebastian Wroth, participating in the Talisman Hie…Kresley’s version of The Amazing Race.
Sarah & Jen cover everything from pop-culture in romance novels to the lengths we’ll go for the people we love, and the immense trust required when we fall in love…all while marveling at the way Kresley sets the stage for a series that will subvert tropes and genres again and again.
Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, please leave us a like or a review.
Our next read (in two weeks) will be Wicked Deeds on a Winter’s Night — and the witches are coming! WDOAWN is the story of Bowen MacRieve (werewolf) and Mariketa the Awaited (witch)…and the book that really breaks open the wide world of IAD. We’ll be joined by the brilliant Adriana Herrera, and you won’t want to miss it. Get ready for the read along at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books or your local indie.
Show Notes
Some fun facts about The Amazing Race.
The Valkyeries in mythology, and maybe you didn't notice that "Val Hall" is a play on Valhalla.
Vampires in pop culture & literature.
Remember your high school English teacher talking about characters who are foils of each other? This is not to be confused with your algebra teacher talking about how to solve quadratic equations.
On Urban Dictionary, I want to kiss the person who defined Frigid it as "An outdated, Victorian term used to describe women who aren't interested in sex. Only used today by drunk men in bars to explain why the woman they attempted to pick up wasn't interested."
A wacky look at some potential real life examples of time travel.
Just out of curiosity, this is what you'll find if you google "Bad Ass Estonian General." IMPRESSIVE.
Sarah's wet noodle joke is part of a long literary tradition where vampires just need a good dose of viagra.
All about beta heros, cinnamon roll heroes, and a link to a lot of talk about the latter from Ana Coqui's November 2018's #RomBkLove.
Sarah mentions "the vampire chained to a bed" and she's talking about Conrad Wroth, the hero of Dark Needs at Night's Edge (book 4).
Just a brief review of birth control, how we use it, and why it is so important to women's rights.
In case you were wondering why Jen talked about "no one ever has to go to the bathroom." It's a thing. Sarah accused Jen of RUINING ROMANCE, but clearly that's not the case because here we are.
More about lightning and planes.
Chicago's Bubbly Creek. That's real. If you ever want to nerd out on this history, Jen recommends a book called Nature's Metropolis. Honestly, you really have no idea how fascinating grain elevators are.
The short and incomplete list of magical items introduced in this book: Kaderin gives the Furies armor that can't be pierced and a battle axe that can kill Lore beings without having to behead them. The New Zealand coven of Valkyeries has a choker that allows the person wearing it to sing a siren's song. No one knows what happend to the armband that makes the wearer feel overwhelming sexual desire. Amphitrite's tear is a bead that will heal any wound. The Blade of Honorius never misses its target. Thrane's Key was the time-traveling prize in this Hie, and at the end of the book, Riora gives Sebastian one to use at his discretion.
Deus Ex Machina is fun to say, but kind of a bummer when that's how an author gets her characters out of a jam.
All the cool vampires from the mid-2000s carry RAZR phones.
Diamonds are a construct, just like virginity.
Sarah is pro-Kardashian.
Bowen & Mariketa are coming up next, but the thing she was excited about at the end of that book actually happened at the end of Dark Needs at Night's Edge.
Swineherds vs. shepherds, and the only time Jen ever felt truly understood on Reddit.
The Battle of Evermore by Led Zeppelin, and if you think Jen wasn't dying to update Genius with this Kresley Cole reference, you don't know her at all. But maybe the video is more your speed.
1: We're Gonna Come Back to Biting - A Hunger Like No Other
Sarah & Jen talk A Hunger Like No Other, why reading Alphas in 2018 is a tricky situation, how Kresley instantly changed the game with Lachlain MacRieve, and why Emma's bite sets the standard for the whole series.
Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, a like would be awesome!
Our next read (in two weeks) will be No Rest for the Wicked — the story of Sebastian Wroth (vampire) and Kaderin the Cold-Hearted (valkyrie), and the beginning of the IAD Amazing Race mini-arc!
Show Notes
Why do people hate the word moist?
There really are catacombs below Paris, and they seem very creepy.
Co-ed is a more dated word than you'd expect. According to the Oxford English dictionary, it's been in use since the 1880s. Game, set, and match to The Independent, which printed the following sentence in 1903: "Any college where the girls are commonly called ‘co-eds’ is not a truly co-educational institution."
The TSTL trope in romance heroines.
The Fated Mates trope.
Maybe you all missed the Kavanaugh hearings. I love myself, so we'll just stick to one informative infographic.
Jen's romance book club at 57th Street Books in Chicago's Hyde Park neighborhood. If you're not in Chicago, bookstores and libraries across the country and online will be participating in The Great Big Romance Read in December 2018. Find your people!
Romance isn't the only genre examining old favorites through the lens of #MeToo. Molly Ringwald looked back at John Hughes and The Breakfast Club in The New Yorker. This podcast from WNYC is about pop culture in the #MeToo era.
The list of RITA award winners, sorted by year.
A million articles have been written about Twilight, but I like this one that looks at the big themes that bubble up time and time again.
Alisha Rai has said lots of smart things about toxic masculinity, as it turns out.
Representation in BDSM matters.
Take a crash course in modernity.
A brief overview of Cassandra from Greek mythology.
The Devil in Winter, because everyone loves to read about a sex deal.
According to The Smart Bitches, a magic hoo-hah is "shorthand for the equally illustrious and many powers of the female sex organ, specifically the vagina. The Magic Hoo-Hoo tames the Mighty Wang, and becomes the magnetized true north for the hero’s trouser compass from the point of their first sexual coupling. The Magic Hoo-Hoo brings the hero to monogamous attachment, because after experiencing it, the hero will not be satisfied with anything or anyone else."
I'm sure everyone wants to learn more about moon phases.
Fury is an actual furie.
When we say Lothaire was a big deal, we mean there was an actual Lothaire bus touring around America.
Are you ready for No Rest for the Wicked?
Intro: A Wolf Without A Foot
Welcome to Fated Mates! Author Sarah MacLean and critic Jen Prokop launch their fan podcast about Kresley Cole’s Internationally bestselling paranormal romance series, Immortals After Dark. Sarah and Jen introduce themselves and the series, and talk about its place in the romance genre. Topics include feminism, patriarchy, modernity and Moonstruck. Yes, the one with Cher. Also included, an introduction to the first book in the series, A Hunger Like No Other…the book they’ll be rereading for Episode 1.
Buy A Hunger Like No Other at Amazon, B&N, iBooks, Kobo, or your local indie.
Show Notes
Jen wrote about A Hunger Like No Other twice: a Throwback Thursday review, and a look at how the book covers changed over time.
A definition of the Fated Mates trope.
Sarah wrote about fated mates and Kresley Cole on twitter.
What is paranormal romance?
A big overview of PNR
A thoughtful academic definition
Superhero movies after 9/11
The Immortals after Dark on Audio
Robert Petkoff, audiobook narrator of our hearts.
Kresley Cole’s Pocket Books page
Moonstruck, 30 years old and still amazing.
Sarah wrote about the Alpha Male in Romance after the 2016 election.
What is Urban Fantasy?
Have we mentioned that we talk about this series a lot on twitter?
A Google folder with PDFs of articles above that still exist online as of 8/2023)
