S02.43: Daring & the Duke: It's Grace and Ewan Week!
Sarah has a new book out, so Jen is playing host this week, and Sarah is playing guest, and Jen is really outrageously good at it…move over Terry Gross! Find Daring & the Duke wherever books are sold, including Amazon, Kobo, B&N, Apple Books, Books-a-Million, or at your local indie via Bookshop.org.
Show Notes
You can listen to all of our walk-up music suggestions on the Fated Mates Spotify playlist. But in case you've never seen The Music Man, the song Marian the Librarian is very cute.
Sarah wants to be a guest on Fresh Air. (Jen obviously does, too, but has to actual cause to be interviewed. So #TeamSarah.) Do we know anyone who knows Terry Gross?
If you can't wait, you can listen to us on the Deerfield Public Libary podcast, but we're going to drop it into our own feed later this month. So no worries.
Jen thinks Sarah is in her imperial period--a phrase Jen learned from listening to the Hit Parade podcast.
The past year have had some great books about rage and feminism: The Seven Necessary Sins for Women and Girls, Good and Mad, and Hood Feminism are three we recommend.
We put children in factories all day, so of course kids fought, too. Sarah recommends The Fair Fight, a historical novel, about bareknuckle fighting kids.
Statler & Waldorf are the two old dudes up on the balcony during The Muppet Show.
The Victorian Age wasn't so great for women and other marginalized people.
That Jeffrey Epstein documentary is on Netflix.
Ewan's year-long break was inspired by The Player.
The myth of Apollo and Cyrene, and also a little about neo-classicism. One of our favorite myth retellings of the past few years, is Circe by Madeline Miller. Jessica Avery presented a paper at the Popular Culture Association about mythology in Sarah's books.
The Master's Tools will Never Dismantle the Master's House is the name of the essay by Audre Lorde. You should read it.
S02.40: A Kingdom of Dreams by Judith McNaught: A Romance Reader's Romance
It’s the last read-along of Season Two! We’re reading Judith McNaught’s A Kingdom of Dreams, which is the actual book that blooded Sarah when she was wee. This week we’re talking old-school romance, what McNaught was doing with this book and this hero who is so unlike all the heroes who came before him, and why (book) Jennifer is the perfect namesake for (our) Jennifer.
We might not be doing read alongs until August, but that doesn’t mean your TBR won’t still be groaning under the weight of our recommendations — we’ve got a bunch of rec episodes lined up for summer….oh, and did you know Sarah has a book out in three weeks? Order it from Amazon, Kobo, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Books-a-Million or from your local indie, or order it signed from her local indie, WORD Bookstore, and get a special edition Fated Mates sticker with your purchase!
As summer approaches, if you are up for leaving a rating or review for the podcast on your podcasting app, we would be very grateful!
Show Notes
Marty McFly, played by Michael J. Fox, was the main character in an excellent 1985 time-traveling movie called Back to the Future.
Sarah's next book, Daring and the Duke, comes out at the end of the month. Preorder from WORD in Brooklyn and you'll recieve a limited edition yellow Fated Mates sticker.
Whitney, My Love is an early McNaught historical romance that the author changed because in the original text, the hero rapes and horsewhips the heroine. The hero of A Kingdom of Dreams, Royce Westmoreland, is one of Clayton's ancestors, but we think he is McNaught correcting the record on the Alpha hero. In the IAD novella episode, we talked about the changes in Whitney, My Love. Whitney also came up in the Alpha episode that started the season, because it's impossible to talk about the primordial alphas without talking about the early Alpha.
More on the four books that comprise the Westmoreland series.
Who do we talk to get A Kingdom of Dreams on audio? Oh, you can email a request to Audible.
Jen learned about 1497 on Wikipedia. As one does.
Margaret Tudor was Henry VII's eldest daughter, married to James IV of Scotland to bring peace to the border. Fun fact, once James IV died (thanks for nothing, Henry VIII, you were the worst), Margaret acted as Regent until James V of Scotland, but when that didn't work out, she married two other dudes and also staged a coup, so we don't really know why we don't all sing her praise always. Yeah, we do. Patriarchy. Anyway. Sarah didn't learn about Margaret Tudor on Wikipedia, but you can.
All about the bliaut. Sarah would like you to know she looked up bliauts on Wikipedia after we recorded and now she's an expert. High-fives to all Wikipedia editors. Nothing without you.
Tinctures, tonics, and teas is Fated Mates shorthand for historicals where medicine women knew various herbal remedies for preventing or ending pregnancy. Or in this case, causing life-long impotence.
We talked a little bit about the freedom of setting a romance in Medieval times on our Scottish Romance episode, so head over and listen to that if you're interested.
Jen's obsessed with the idea of the Vietnam Hero, but doesn't know where to start. Probably with finishing the Ken Burns Vietnam documentary.
What would Jurgen Klopp say?
While we're talking about Judith McNaught and Wikipedia, do not sleep on her page. Divorce celebrations, Coors Brewing Company tie-ins, the invention of the non-clinch romance cover, moving to Dallas after going there on book tour...it has it all.
Support Black Lives Matter and bail funds in your city or state.
Register to vote. Already registered? Double check.
S02.38: Three Little Mistakes by Nikki Sloane: I Think About Kool Aid A Lot
We’re talking about one of the best writers in erotic romance this week—Join us for a deep dive into Nikki Sloane’s Three Little Mistakes, which is one of Sarah’s favorite romances. We’re talking about kink, kink shaming, how to make sex discussions less awkward with new partners and how erotic romance is doing some of the best work in the genre right now…and we’re also going to talk about fruity drinks.
In two weeks, we’re officially OFFICIALLY reading Judith McNaught’s A Kingdom of Dreams! Get ready for Sarah’s favorite historical of all time. It’s HAPPENING. Find A Kingdom of Dreams at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, or Kobo … and don’t forget your favorite indie, which is probably shipping books right now and definitely needs your patronage!
Also, if you love the music in this or any of our episodes, check out our Spotify playlist, which includes it all!
Show Notes
Here's Jen Porter on Twitter talking about erotic romance. But just this week, Robin Bradford (winner of the RWA Librarian of the year!) was also talking about why it's a problem that we don't have a clear definition for erotic romance.
Getting RWA to recoginize erotic romance was such a struggle that there was actually a petition! But now we can (hopefully) all move on to bigger and better things with The Vivian.
YA books with queer characters are some of the most challenged books in America.
Sarah also mentioned Sordid, which has non-consensual sex and therefore needs a content warning.
Nikki Sloane used to live in Chicago and now lives in Kentucky. Looks like Jen's friendship plans have just been foiled.
Having sex in a porche sounds excruciating, and so does having sex with a porche (WTF!), but Men's Health Magazine to the rescue with this handy (lol) list of best cars to have sex in.
Maybe when we can go places again, you might want to rent or buy a yurt in Hawaii.
Avoid those sugary drinks for yourself and your kids. If you are in Chicago and looking for a dentist, Jen LOVES her dentist Dr. Deaver and Dr. Casimir at Classic Smiles on South Wabash. And she really buried the lede and forgot to mention that Dr. Deaver is not only an amazing dentist, but he was President Obama's dentist!
Next time: A Kingdom of Dreams.
Preorder Daring and the Duke from WORD in Brooklyn and you'll get a sweet limited edition yellow Fated Mates sticker.
S02.36: Bet Me by Jennifer Crusie: I wanna mash their faces together.
It’s a Jen week this week! We’re reading Bet Me this week, the book many people put right on the top of Best Contemporary Romance lists — one of Jen’s favorite books and a book Sarah liked to tell people she loved but has now discovered she’d never actually read. Minerva and Cal are absolutely terrific, as is this book, and we’re having a rollicking conversation about fat rep, about friendships in romance, about food (Sarah’s love language), about shoes, and about why grown people at little league games are a weird thing.
We love having you with us! — subscribe on your favorite podcasting platform and like/review the podcast, please!
In two weeks, it’s erotica week! We’re reading a book that Sarah loves, Nikki Sloane’s Three Little Mistakes, which we’ve talked about before on the podcast, but we want to deep dive on. Get Three Little Mistakes from Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, or Kobo … and don’t forget your favorite indie, which is probably shipping books right now and definitely needs your patronage!
Also, if you love the music in this or any of our episodes, check out our Spotify playlist, which includes it all!
Show Notes
We're big fans of Carly Lane-Perry from SyFy Fangirls. We especially like her newsletter, Kissing Books--Jen wrote about grandmothers in romance.
Is it criticism if it's all positive?
Baby Foot is sold out, but there are lots of other terrifying alternatives you can try.
Janet Dailey is famous for plagiarizing Nora Roberts. Before that happened, she wrote the Americana series, with one book set in every state. The one set in Ohio was called The Widow and the Wastrel, and Jen's twitter thread about the book unearthed several early covers for the book.
Sarah asked if Jenny Crusie is from Ohio? She is.
This was Sarah's first time reading Bet Me, just like it was Jen's first time reading Gentle Rogue.
Minerva and Diana probably wish they weren't named after Roman goddesses.
So: you want to be an actuary. You want to learn about chaos theory. You're wondering about the gender essentialsim of a book with a title like Men are from Mars; Women are from Venus. You want to learn more about the band Cake.
Penn and Teller explain the Cup and Ball trick. Oh, and did you hear Sarah mention it's going to appear in Daring and the Duke? Pre-order from WORD in Brooklyn, and you'll recieve a free limited edition yellow Fated Mates sticker.
With these many characters, it might as well be a Robert Atlman movie.
Learn about dyslexia, our understanind of which has dramatically changed over time. Erin McCarthy's Hard and Fast (2009) also has a dyslexic hero.
Another utterly fantastic family dinner gone wrong scene is in Her Naughty Holiday by Tiffany Reisz.
Jeanne Lin knows how to write some really sexy kissing.
The fairy godmother is a hallmark of Cinderella, and Sarah's own magical modiste is Madame Hebert.
There are so many homages to great rom-coms of the 90s. Diana loves the music from Julia Roberts movies. Elvis Costello's She appeared in Notting Hill, the lead up to the big wedding was like Four Weddings and a Funeral, and of course Diana turns into a Runaway Bride. Min's visit to the magical modiste is like one of the greatest makeover sequences in movies, Pretty Woman. The "I love your shoes" was like The American President. All the wolf references, of course reminded us of Moonstruck. Cynthie's sexy clothes at the little league game were reminiscent of this great scene in Bull Durham.
Order buttons from Kelly in Jen's shop, and t-shirts from Jordan Dene.
Next up, we'll be reading Three Little Mistakes from Nikki Sloan.
S02.34: Texas! Chase by Sandra Brown: The Original Sexclamation Point
Sometimes there’s a writer who’s so transformative to your experience as a reader that you forget she even was a part of it until you remember, and then you remember every book she’s written. It’s Sandra Brown week here at Fated Mates, and we have loved so many of her romances that we just didn’t know what to read, so strap in, because both Jen and Sarah read Texas! Chase, and then two roads diverged, only to discover some real deep-rooted kinky stuff. Strap in. This one left Eric shellshocked!
We love having you with us! — subscribe on your favorite podcasting platform and like/review the podcast, please!
In two weeks, we’re reading a book that blooded Jen, Jenny Crusie’s Bet Me! Which you can get bundled with Welcome to Temptation (get this one — it’s $2. cheaper than getting Bet Me alone!) from Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, or Kobo … and don’t forget your favorite indie, which is probably shipping books right now and definitely needs your patronage!
Also, if you love the music in this or any of our episodes, check out our Spotify playlist, which includes it all!
Show Notes
Jen's been thinking about how we're going to archive the Quarantine Times and so are historians. Steve Ammidown was kind enough to make some videos about archiving for Jen's TikTok.
Turns out that tweet about the Spanish epidimologist was not true! Blessed be the fact checkers.
Lori Lightfoot is Jen's mayor and her Coronavirus memes are the best.
Everyone knows who Tom Brady is, but not many people seem to like him.
Sandra Brown was in the first class of authors acquired by Vivian Stephens. Her Loveswept #1 was Heaven's Price, and her Harlequin American Romance #1 was Tomorrow's Promise. Steve Ammidown was also kind enough to dig into the archives and pull out some early interviews with Sandra Brown and about the founding of Loveswept.
Benjamin Dreyer definitely wants you to know the difference between the em dash, en dash, and the hypen.
The Rana Look cover has the author and McLean Stevenson from MASH as the cover models. Whoa.
You can still join the Doubleday Book Club. Who knew!
Jeff Wright has a very funny TikTok (which he crossposts to Twitter and Instagram) and a very distinctive way of saying Oh Wow.
Sheikhs & Native Americans in romance are full of racist, harmful stereotypes.
Jennifer Porter took the hit on Texas! Lucky for us.
Oil Futures aren't looking good for the Tyler family; it's not looking great for the rodeo, either.
Sunny Chandler's job as a Mardi Gras costume designer seems pretty sweet. Here's a cool interview with Patricia Halsell-Richardson, a woman who designs Mardi Gras costumes in Mobile.
A quick primer to the waves of feminism and what people thought about working women in the 80s.
Sandra Brown's house was blown up for an episode of Walker, Texas Ranger. A show that is making a comeback, as it turns out.
Ann Richards was pretty great, and so is her daughter Cecile.
GQ has some instructions on how to be a DILF, but our current favorite is by Katee Roberts.
Slow Heat in Heaven has a plot about dogfighting, but Sarah mentioned a romance where the dogs fall in love back when we talked about non-Sandra Brown category romances.
The 80s Primetime Soap Operas were a force to be reckoned with.
Next time, we'll be talking about Bet Me by Jenny Crusie. For some reason, it's cheaper to buy it bundled with Welcome To Temptation. /rolls eyes at eBook pricing on a 20 year old book.
S02.32: Taking the Heat by Victoria Dahl: Perfect Books are Perfect
We’re back to a more recent book that taught Sarah about contemporary romance, Victoria Dahl’s Taking the Heat. Use headphones for this one, because we’re talking about the best BJs in romance, the power of a great sex scene, and how we want you all to be in a sex pantheon. We’re also talking about flawed characters, true cinnamon rolls, and why Victoria Dahl is a fricken great author.
We love having you with us! — subscribe on your favorite podcasting platform and like/review the podcast, please!
In two weeks, we’re reading Sandra Brown! Jen and Sarah will be reading Texas! Chase, but it’s dealers’ choice! Pick your favorite old Sandra Brown or ask us for a rec on Twitter or Instagram! Maybe you want That Rana Look? Or Slow Heat in Heaven? Or French Silk? You can find them wherever books are sold (but the Texas! series isn’t in ebook format yet, sadly) — and don’t forget your favorite indie!
Also, if you love the music in this or any of our episodes, check out our Spotify playlist, which includes it all!
Show Notes
Sure, Sarah's new computer makes her feel like Lightning McQueen, but it's her new version of Scrivener that is the most exciting thing.
Jen isn't the only one who likes Starburst jelly beans.
Sarah has planner envy. We both love Blackwing pencils. If you also love Blackwing pencils, we highly recommend this video by comedian David Rees on Artisinal Pencil Sharpening. There's also a book! We don't quite understand washi tape, but we're happy for those who love it. If you want to talk planners, Nisha Sharma, Kate Clayborn, and Tracey Livesay are your people.
RIP BEA 2020, we look forward to 2021.
Jen is addicted to jigsaw puzzles, just like everyone else in the world.
The city junk problem is actually pretty great.
Victoria Dahl also writes as Victoria Helen Stone. Jen rediscovered contemporary romance with the Tumble Creek series, and also the Fast Track series by Erin McCarthy.
Gabe's job was to introduce eBooks to the library. We've come a long way, baby.
Jackson, Wyoming is the setting of this book, and apparently there's a lot to do there -- like skiing and rock climbing. It's all outdoorsy, so we can't really speak to it.
The big city to small town trope is a cornerstone of romance. It's just not a corner we visit that often.
The advice columnist is experiencing a huge resurgence these days, and in the age of the internet, everyone can give advice.
Some useful resources if someone you know is sharing their thoughts of suicidal ideation.
That Elizabeth Hoyt book with Winter Makepeace is called Thief of Shadows, and it also has a great blow job scene. In case you're into that sort of thing.
Watch the Ending of Crocodile Dundee if you've never had the pleasure.
If you are looking to try a new podcast app, we both love Overcast. Along with being a great listening device, you can use it to find and share any podcast clips online!
Preorder Daring and the Duke! Support your local indie bookstore, Sarah's is WORD in Brooklyn and Jen's is 57th Street Books in Chicago. And everyone's is Love's Sweet Arrow or The Ripped Bodice.
Next time, it's choose your own Sandra Brown adventure. We'll both read Texas! Chase, which believe it or not isn't on Kindle, but it is on audio! We'll also post a thread of some other Sandra Brown favorites. And if straight thriller is your thing, try OutFox, which is the one Sarah's mom enjoyed.
S02.30: Nobody's Baby But Mine by Susan Elizabeth Phillips : Grandma has her Shotgun
We are feeling really proud of ourselves this week because Nobody’s Baby But Mine was the perfect isolation read for us both. The reread confirmed to both of us that this is, beat-for-beat, one of the best romcoms of all time. We’re talking problematic plots, the 90s, what we expect from jerk heroes and how Susan Elizabeth Phillips is better at flawed characters than anyone else in the game.
We love having you with us! — subscribe on your favorite podcasting platform and like/review the podcast, please!
In two weeks, we’re reading Victoria Dahl’s Taking the Heat. We know it’s tough to get it in print, but find it in e at your local library or at: Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo, or in print, mailed from your local indie (which is probably still shipping!)
Show Notes
Americans are stress buying chickens. Yes, eggs are more expensive, but this is not a good idea.
Speaking of chicks, now that Jen knows what happens to the chicks in the hatchery at the Museum of Science and Industry, she's back on Team Train Room.
One day, we'll be able to visit the Butterfuly exhibit at the Museum of Natural History again.
Nick Heath and Conor McGahey have figured out a way to keep those announcing skills sharp.
When it comes to the SEP-Multiverse, we like the whackadoodle one at the circus (Kiss an Angel), the one with Bobby Tom (Heaven Texas), the one with the lazy golfer (Lady Be Good), and the one with Sugar Beth (Ain't She Sweet).
What happened to the Lamont House romance collection?
Charlotte Stein has a suggestion for authors of contemporary romance.
Last year, Sarah wrote about technology in romance for the Washington Post.
We talked about Prisoner of My Desire with Joanna Shupe, which is another book about a heroine who has done something very wrong.
Maybe you're looking for actual secret baby books.
The one with bad sex is Call Me Irresistible.
After 9/11, Saturday Night Live and The Onion had to figure out how to be funny again.
Our next book is Taking the Heat (aka Cunnilingus Gabe) by Victoria Dahl.
TRANSCRIPT
Sarah MacLean 0:01 / #
Jen, I'm so proud of us. We picked the right book this week,
Jennifer Prokop 0:08 / #
We picked the right book! I have not been able to read all week. And I mean, I think that's all of us, right? It's so hard. And I picked this up to read and read it in one sitting.
Sarah MacLean 0:20 / #
I fell right into it. And then halfway through, I texted Susan, and I was like, Susan, I'm rereading Nobody's Baby But Mine right now. And I just had to text you to tell you that you are a genius. And this book is like, as wonderful as it was in when I read it the first time. I mean, it's better now. It's better because I'm older. Like, it's better because I get it more.
Jennifer Prokop 0:50 / #
I was telling Kate that I read this book the first time when I was 10 years younger than they were and now I'm 10 years older. So that is also really wild.
Sarah MacLean 1:00 / #
Yeah, it really changes things. Anyway. Welcome everybody to Fated Mates. I am Sarah McLean. I write romance novels and I read romance novels.
Jennifer Prokop 1:11 / #
And I'm Jen Prokop. I'm a romance critic, and I real shit-talker on Twitter.
Sarah MacLean 1:16 / #
A real big shit talker these days, man. You're like..
Jennifer Prokop 1:19 / #
I'm sorry, everybody. We're all trying to deal with it in our own way.
Sarah MacLean 1:26 / #
We're all just getting through. Jen is a Scorpio. It just happens sometimes.
Jennifer Prokop 1:31 / #
It's true. I've been actually trying to stay off because
it's hard. Twitter is hard. A side from just like a lot of like crazy nonsense information out there because oh, we're still in self isolation, just checking in. Yeah, it's day 15 here in New York. And that's a lot of days.
A lot of days.
Sarah MacLean 1:57 / #
And so a lot of people are just tweeting, whatever they're just retweeting like, whatever nonsense some rando has posted to the internet like it's facts. And a lot of people are just getting stressed. Like yesterday, there was a piece in The Times about people who are stress-buying chickens, baby chicks, which I think is interesting on a couple of levels. Like one: Do we really think we're gonna run out of eggs? Like is that a thing we're concerned about? Because I, we're here-- I'm here like reporting in from ground zero of the pandemic in America-- and I will tell you, we have eggs at our corner store. But also, it seems that people have not realized that when you buy a chick, it takes some time before it becomes a chicken.
So I don't know it seems like a bad idea to panic buy live animals and I tweeted about this and right now Twitter there. I've made like "Panic buying live animals Twitter" a little upset?
Jennifer Prokop 3:03 / #
Well, I, I want them to rethink it. Can I tell you one, I've had a, I don't really do-- I mean, we have cats and I'm down with that, but like barnyard animals are not my jam.
Sarah MacLean 3:16 / #
Why would you do that? We live in a city, it's fine.
Jennifer Prokop 3:19 / #
Yes. But at the Museum of Science and Industry, which is in my neighborhood, one of my favorite exhibits is... and I don't know how they do this, although I now have a friend who works there. And maybe I need to call her and get this information. I've always been curious. They have incubators, and every morning they put out the eggs that are going to hatch that day. And somehow they know because they're like written on the egg.. like you can see, it would be 31, or whatever. That'd be March, the March 31st eggs. And then you can just stand there and watch these chicks like work their way out of this. And it is...I could watch it all day.
Sarah MacLean 3:56 / #
Is it really cool?
Jennifer Prokop 3:57 / #
It is! My son never had the patience for it. It was right next to the train room and I always felt like it screwed me over because I could watch those all day. But I did, when this happened, I found myself really thinking like, but But what about the chicks? Like what? What are they gonna do?
Sarah MacLean 4:16 / #
I think they're probably fine. In fact, they're probably happier. They're not being stared at by by by a bunch of like weirdo children
Jennifer Prokop 4:24 / #
A bunch of Chicagoans who are like, What's going on here?
Sarah MacLean 4:27 / #
I mean, I have to say we took my daughter to the Museum of Natural History to the butterfly exhibit, which happens every year in New York City, in the February March, April months, and they get chrysalises sent from all over the world to the Museum of Natural History here, and you can watch butterflies hatch from the Crysalises, and then they basically turn this this section of the museum into like a butterfly room. These amazing, huge beautiful butterflies from all over the world are living inside this rain forest feeling-- like it's very hot and humid in there lots of big flowers and plants. And it's truly one of the coolest things I've ever seen like watching a butterfly come out of a cocoon.
Jennifer Prokop 5:21 / #
That's awesome.
Sarah MacLean 5:22 / #
Really cool.
And I had never seen it until this year, and I mean, it it's cool watching things hatch and like, it's nature's cool. I mean, I like to look at it under glass.
Jennifer Prokop 5:36 / #
To circle back to "don't panic buy" I don't want those chickens in my backyard or on my porch, I don't know,
Sarah MacLean 5:42 / #
if you live in a city and you are panic buying chicks, You should know that chickens are kind of dirty and they attract rats and you're not going to like what happens when you get rats in your yard and you live in a city because they're gonna come because they exist. There's like the whole thing. Anyway, I'm very concerned about this and I feel like, I have sort of mixed feelings because at the same time I'm really I feel like the silver lining of this whole thing is that New York City has run out of adoptable dogs and cats. And that's really great. Like, that's, like, that's awesome. And now actually probably is a pretty good time to get a puppy speaking as somebody who has a one year old dog that is annoying.
Jennifer Prokop 6:29 / #
Well, it gives you something to do every day.
Sarah MacLean 6:32 / #
I guess you have time to train your puppy which I did not have to have time to do which is why I have a terrible dog now.
Jennifer Prokop 6:40 / #
Well, can I tell you one other really funny thing and we'll put it in show notes is have you seen these videos of sports announcers instead of like, calling like matches, one guy he puts down two bowls of food for his dogs and then calls it like it's a sports match. The Same guy gets out and does something on the street. He called this "pigeon dressage," where he like is filming a group of pigeons and sort of like....
Sarah MacLean 7:08 / #
You can tell has been preparing for this for a long time. He's got two standard legs and and all of his toes. So I've asked him like most of the crackhead pigeons you see around these parts and you can see how keen he has to disassociate himself from the rest, but occasionally blending in momentarily as a feast on is it rice, seed probably vomit. What comes up must go down disgusting.
Jennifer Prokop 7:28 / #
It is. Honestly, it's great. Another American guy, if you send him videos of your cats fighting will like call the cat fight.
Sarah MacLean 7:39 / #
Like a boxing match. Yes.
Jennifer Prokop 7:43 / #
And it is really funny and I keep hoping I'll catch my cats fighting so I can have their fight called
Sarah MacLean 7:50 / #
Man. It is bringing out the very best and the very worst of the internet and also people. I really believe that. Some people are doing some really, really cool things. And some people are doing some really, really terrible things. So you know,
Jennifer Prokop 8:07 / #
Hey, speaking of a cool thing I'm doing. Yeah, I'm interviewing YA authors on TikTok.
Sarah MacLean 8:12 / #
Oh, yeah, you are.
Jennifer Prokop 8:14 / #
I'm gonna post that. We'll post that in the show notes too. And I'll be putting it on my Twitter. I've had like three or four people so far. But the whole idea is just like, if you have kids, or if you're a teacher or librarian, please share them. They're...TikTok videos can only be a minute long. And so they're really quick. It's like four little interviews with each author. And it's really fun. And I'm just like: let's get kids reading.
Sarah MacLean 8:38 / #
I totally agree. And, I mean, whatever. I wish there was more. I wish there was more for writers to be able to do right now. Like, I wish there was a way that I could help people. You know, writers are much less exciting than musicians or actors or whatever, but I'm super excited. About your TikTok project, and some of my friends have done it. And some of them haven't yet and I'm gonna yell at them. Sophie Jordan!
Jennifer Prokop 9:09 / #
People are in a pandemic. And so I can understand why.
Sarah MacLean 9:14 / #
But I saw that Zoriada Cordova did it, and you said Ali Carter's came in, so Thank you to you guys.
Jennifer Prokop 9:21 / #
Gia Krebbs, I think, and then the first one was, oh, Nisha Sharma. Yeah, she was my test case. Yeah, it was great.
Sarah MacLean 9:31 / #
Well, all of that said, we hope you're doing well world. We were really we there was such a great response to last week's episode about health care workers. And, you know, please keep thanking healthcare workers who are really doing the business, and not like the good business. You know, hard, hard business.
But let's get to it because you know, who else is doing the business?
Jennifer Prokop 10:01 / #
Man, I love this book so much.
Sarah MacLean 10:04 / #
So was it both? Was it a mutual pick? What is this book? Who picked this book?
Jennifer Prokop 10:10 / #
I think we definitely were like, let's do Susan Elizabeth Phillips. And I think we I think you were like Nobody's Baby But Mine. And I was like, Yes. Now I love Heaven, Texas. I love that wackadoodle one at the fucking circus. And it was funny, because I've been rereading today the one about the lazy golfer which I want to like put a titles Lady Be Good. I think is that one.
Sarah MacLean 10:36 / #
Lady Be Good and Heaven Texas are related. Right?
Jennifer Prokop 10:39 / #
Yes, yes. Everybody-- Bobby, Bobby Tom, which is?
Sarah MacLean 10:45 / #
Seriously, it's so amazing to me like, there are so many things about Susan Elizabeth Phillips that blow my mind. One of the ones that is probably more pedestrian than anything else, is the fact that she Can name her characters things like Bobby Tom? Or, Sugar Beth. And you're like, yeah, sexy here for it.
Jennifer Prokop 11:11 / #
So I think you you just said this one first and
Sarah MacLean 11:15 / #
Nobody's Baby But Mine is my first Susan Elizabeth Phillips book
Jennifer Prokop 11:20 / #
Really? Okay.
Sarah MacLean 11:23 / #
After which I immediately read every Susan Elizabeth Phillips book.
Jennifer Prokop 11:28 / #
So you didn't read this when it came out?
Sarah MacLean 11:31 / #
I did. I mean, I I read this a long time ago, but I don't. But I it was my first like, I was in college. Again. I thought this was earlier than it was, so I was in college. I would have been in college when it came out. 1997 is that what we decided?
Jennifer Prokop 11:49 / #
Yeah, I looked. I read this when it came out, for sure.
Sarah MacLean 11:54 / #
I don't know if I told the whole story about this, but I went to Smith. And at Smith, our house at Smith is our dorm at Smith. So the rules for for Smith are different-- like going to college at Smith is like going to college on another planet. If you haven't been to Smith it -- always my husband thinks this is like every piece of the Smith experience is just bonkers. And one of the things... so at Smith nobody lives in dorms. You live in houses. Every house has its own kitchen, with its own kitchen staff, which was amazing. And you have to live on campus all four years. If you don't, you have to get special dispensation from the college not to live on campus. And every house is divided into quarters-- so it's you know, first year, sophomores, juniors, and seniors. So there's one quarter of each class in your house and when you come in as a first year. Most people never move houses they start at House that they live in their whole time. So when you meet, when you see Smithies in the wild later in life, invariably the first question that we ask each other is "what House did you live in?" Because like that's the connection, the connective tissue. We don't have, We don't have sororities, every thing is a sorority at Smith. I lived in Lamont house -- shout out to Lamonsters everywhere! And Lamont had a case, and what happens is when you're a senior at Smith, and you're leaving, you have lived in the same, often and you have lived in the same house all four years. And so all your stuff like if you think about it, you've basically lived in an apartment for four years. And so your stuff has just stayed in the house over the summer, and you know, moved from room to room, but I lived in the same room for two years. So like you amass stuff the way you do in life, and it never goes home to your parents' house. It stays in storage until you graduate. And then when you graduate, the seniors in every house have what's called a senior banquet. And at that banquet, they "will on" all their junk to the younger women in the house, so
And one of the things that had been willed down from generation to generation in this house was a romance novel collection. And I inherited it from a senior when I was a sophomore, because I had been basically like taking books out of this romance collection for a year or two. And she willed it to me, and I kept it in my room, junior year and senior year, and I add, and it came with its own bookshelf, and I added a second bookshelf to it. And so people would just would come and they would take books out of take, you know, quote "take them out of the collection" and then when they had romance novels, they would add them back in. And so all these books have these like magnificent marginalia in them. And it was awesome. Like it was so cool and the marginalia was course like super feminist.
And I willed it on to my friend Mara, who will, who I'm told willed on to a sophomore when she graduated, and then we lost touch with it, and now the Lamont house romance novel collection has disappeared. We don't know what happened to it in the ensuing 20 years. But all of this is to say that one, I'm very sad that Lamont house collection is gone. And two, that Nobody's Baby But Mine had to have been in that collection that would have been where I would have found it. Somebody would have either put it there or I would have bought it and put it there. But all that is to say that Susan Elizabeth Phillips, like this was my first taste of her and I think it really changed the game for me. It made me realize, one, that single title contemporaries could exist. And they didn't have to be like, like Judith McNaught style contemporaries, like they could be funny; like this might be the first rom com I'd ever read.
Jennifer Prokop 16:07 / #
Yes. Now this was not my first Susan Elizabeth Phillips. I definitely... I was waiting for this one. So I just, look, this would have been, I would have still been in Texas for Teach for America. We moved to California later that summer, and I definitely was still... I didn't read as much when I did TFA because obviously I was completely overwhelmed all the time. But I had read Heaven Texas, which came out before for sure. Right, and the first Chicago Stars series book. So when this came out, I was like, this was, these were the years where really she was on my radar. I have no idea how we found out books were coming out before Amazon or like due dates I don't know if I was just in the Barnes and Noble and was like!!!! or what but this was definitely a book that I read when it came out and was super excited, and it was, Oh, God, those were good years.
Sarah MacLean 17:06 / #
I mean, but here's the thing. It's so funny. It's so funny and Susan is so funny and her writing is just top, top notch humor, right? Oh, yeah, the banter the back and forth between this couple is so cutting and hilarious like they are both entertaining each other and insulting each other all the time. So great. They're such a perfect match.
Jennifer Prokop 17:34 / #
Yes, it felt a lot like the kinds of sitcom humor we saw in the late 90s. When I read it this time, I was like, it's like Friends-- that sort of like really quick back and forth, the banter. And I think that would have definitely appealed to me for sure, right?
Sarah MacLean 17:51 / #
Mm hmm. And then on top of it, it just has that very real sense of like, you know, I've said this to you a bunch of times, I've said this about Susan all the time, but like Susan really nails real people. All her characters are so authentic, like her heroes are and still like really larger than life like our heroes, like Cal is such a fucking asshole. You both hate him and fully understand where he's coming from. Right? Yeah. And Jane to like, she does terrible, a terrible thing. She does a terrible thing.
Jennifer Prokop 18:32 / #
Yeah, I honestly was what was kind of like, this must have been 1987. And then I was like---1997! to write this plot!
Sarah MacLean 18:40 / #
She does a terrible thing. But like, then you're sort of like, but I kind of get it, and also she's the kind of character who would do this terrible thing and like, not entirely see how it was terrible. Until somebody was like you did a terrible thing. And I think... so why don't we talk a little bit about the plot? Because I think if you haven't read Nobody's Baby But Mine, it is bananas. Like it is a bananas premise, but also I think it's important for us to have a conversation about like, how when you come up with a premise like this? Talk about taking the finger!
Jennifer Prokop 19:23 / #
Shit, no kidding! Well, you know what, here's here's the thing. You and I talk a lot about taking the finger, we talk a lot, at least offline. We've been talking a lot about-- I think everyone is: how does contemporary romance move forward? Because Do you talk about what's happening now? Do you ignore it? Charlotte Stein, we're gonna mention on an upcoming interstitial, essentially tweeted out "it's okay with me if nobody ever talks about this."
Sarah MacLean 19:50 / #
I you know, Coronavirus
Jennifer Prokop 19:52 / #
Right. I speculated that maybe it will just, all the books will be kind of post-Coronavirus, like it has happened? But not living through it, but one thing I really think might happen is that we will just get the return to contemporaries like this, that exist in a "kind of" contemporary universe, right? where everything's just really supercharged but it's not real, the real tethers to to reality are about family and not necessarily about like job. Like the things that in this book are like, just bananas, you know, like, Okay, great. Sure.
Sarah MacLean 20:30 / #
Yeah. Well, I mean, I do think this is structurally really interesting, because I think one of the challenges with contemporaries is, and I see this, I see this push-pull, especially now. So now you've got the sort of, largely in the world of contemporaries where the stories are sort of "out of time," like the mafia contemporary that, like there's just bananas stuff going on all the time. Or the taboo contemporaries, where everything's kind of time slipped, versus what are largely the traditional contemporaries that feel like they are placed down in society now. And I think that what's really interesting is this push-pull that you see with a lot of authors who you can kind of tell are trying to figure out how to tell a story, and include conflict and challenge and tell a kind of compulsive, compelling story, but struggling with this idea of doing it in real life. So you we're starting, that's where we start to see the challenges around: Well, can an alpha really exist in a contemporary romance novel right now? Or are they just like, impossible to write in contemporary? Must they all be cinnamon rolls? These kinds of big questions about archetypes and how we do it, while we're writing a world that is struggling with archetypes.
Jennifer Prokop 22:00 / #
But I would also add, so you have that, you have those big overarching character questions. But I would also argue that you have a big setting question. And the way that often plays out is "do I talk about technology that exists now? Or am I dating my book By doing that?" So I can sort of mention texting, But if I mentioned apps... if I mentioned... So I think it's, it's contemporary is really being pushed and pulled on both ends, like, right, what are the kinds of stories we can tell? And then how do we place them down into the world without them being out of date, the minute they get published?
Sarah MacLean 22:39 / #
Absolutely. And I think authors are making two different choices with this, right? On the one hand, some of them are doing this kind of like, well, "we don't want to date the book" thing, which is limiting some of the stories or making some of the stories challenging, right? And some of them are saying like, fuck it, I'm just gonna write Tinder. which is gonna, Which is its own challenge. I mean, like contemporaries, I've said this 1000 times, but like, I think writing contemporaries is one of the hardest things you can do, because you are really struggling with, what, where the book is in the world. But what I want to talk about is this bananas plot. Because I think, because Susan on a number, so you and I were, just before we started recording, admitting that we usually don't read this whole book cover to cover.
Jennifer Prokop 23:26 / #
Oh, yeah.
Sarah MacLean 23:27 / #
I usually start at about 30 30% in when they get to the Mountain.
Jennifer Prokop 23:32 / #
Yes. Like skip the whole beginning.
Sarah MacLean 23:35 / #
I skipped the beginning. And that's because like, for me, when the money starts to come in. Right when they get to the mountains. And it's forced proximity, and they're stuck together. But, um, you know, which now feels like the right kind of book to be reading right now. But reading the first 30% of this book, this time was a real joy for me because Susan, What Susan is doing is she's laying out all of this plot that is truly problematic. Oh, by saying to the reader again and again, I know that's problematic, and so do you, but this is the story.
Sarah MacLean 24:15 / #
And I fucking love it. I love it.
Jennifer Prokop 24:18 / #
Yeah. I think we talk a lot about how we... I think that's exactly. I don't know what to say, except I'm just like humming because I'm like, here's the thing like, this is the story, right? Like imperfect people do imperfect things. And I and I feel like sometimes we are so worried about really problematic plots because we're worried it means authors means, I think authors worry it means "I'm saying this is okay." And I don't think we for a second think Susan Elizabeth Phillips thinks any of this is okay.
Sarah MacLean 24:55 / #
No, in fact, she says it she name checks it again and again in the text. She talks about so okay for people who haven't read the book, why don't we do the plot? You go.
Jennifer Prokop 25:07 / #
Alright, so it starts off with Cal Bonner. He is a 36 year old quarterback for the Chicago Stars. He's aging out of the NFL but refuses to admit it. He is really, he just wants to stay a young man. And one of the ways he does this is by dating young women. He's never seen on the arms of a woman who was not 20 or 22. And which not... I was that age when I read it, but I was still like... now I'm like: buddy. And so his friends, it's his his birthday. They know he's real sad and depressed about something. They decide that they're going to get him a woman. A hooker basically, right? A sex worker, excuse me.
Sarah MacLean 25:47 / #
But she uses those terms. Yeah, and also Jane doesn't like them.
Jennifer Prokop 25:52 / #
So what happens is...they don't know how to find a classy sex worker, right? Like they don't know how to do this. So They press into service a local bartender, a woman who is pretty much a caricature herself, right? She just wants to, she's like "I'm young. I'm a party girl, I want to bang football players." And if I help them find a classy woman for Cal, I can get it with this other guy. And she essentially serves up her next door neighbor, a physicist named Jane Darlington who really wants desperately to have a child. But she went to college when she was 14 and just doesn't know how to do it. And then, and her reason for agreeing is she was this 180 IQ genius her entire life and was shunned. And so she thinks if she has a baby with somebody really stupid that her, that you know, she'll essentially have a normal child. Some dummy, this dummo will like "even out"
I know when you're like, Oh my god for smart woman that's just all seems like a really bad plan, right?
Sarah MacLean 27:04 / #
Oh, it's so good though. It's so good. She's like, and she's saying it to Janie. No, no, Janie Joanie, the neighbor. And she's like, Look, I just I need somebody stupid. And Joanie is like, what? And she's like, she points to the television is like him, like, I need somebody like that. That Cal Bonner guy, basically. And Joanie's like, Oh, my God, it just fell in my lap. Like, yes, I can get you him. I can get you him.
Jennifer Prokop 27:37 / #
So here's the part that I think is really interesting. And then we'll, I don't maybe I'm jumping ahead. So there she, you know, shows up at this party and she's not really dressed.
Sarah MacLean 27:51 / #
His teammates like, deliver her to him. With a bow on! With a bow on!
Jennifer Prokop 27:58 / #
Oh, God. It's so awkward. Terrible, the whole thing.
Sarah MacLean 28:01 / #
But it doesn't feel sexy. It feels awful, awkward, and terrible. And that's it, again I, we're going to talk about this I hope later, but like that's part of why the book works so well. Susan never makes it sexy.
Jennifer Prokop 28:15 / #
Well, here's the other reason it works so well. She, here's the really unforgivable thing, she tampers with the condom and they have sex, and it really does feel, at that moment, unforgiveable, truly. She does not get pregnant. Two months later, she realizes she's not pregnant and she essentially tracks him down again for another go, and then it's consensual on his part and he just goes in without a condom and sort of can't believe it. And I will say, I think it's incredibly smart of her to play it like this, because this really unforgivable thing, had she become pregnant from the tampered condom. I think it would have, I don't think I would have kept reading.
Sarah MacLean 29:02 / #
Yeah, I think you're right.
Jennifer Prokop 29:04 / #
It's interesting .
Sarah MacLean 29:05 / #
I mean. I don't know that I would. Yeah. It's interesting because I noticed that this read, right? Yes. Like that the second time. He is consensual, bare. Right?
Jennifer Prokop 29:16 / #
Yes. Right.
Sarah MacLean 29:17 / #
But it's interesting because I don't I have never recalled it like that.
Jennifer Prokop 29:24 / #
Oh, no, me neither.
Sarah MacLean 29:25 / #
I will always recalled it as tampered condom. Stolen baby. Yes. And it never bothered me.
I'm like, this is one of those scenarios where like, you have to name the problem and then like, also just acknowledge that like, yeah, It didn't bother me, except in the sense that it did of course bother me-- she does a terrible thing. And I've always known that. Like, I've always from the first second I read this book, known that Jane made a heart horrible horrible decision and trapped Cal into this terrible situation. And no, at no point, does Susan shy away from it. And it's one of those moments It reminded me this time, it evoked for me that Joanna Lindsey Prisoner of My Desire, because you know, which we talked about with Joanna Shupe, on a podcast in season one, but that Joanna Lindsay, the heroine rapes the hero and he's so angry. And in this book Cal is so angry.
Jennifer Prokop 30:37 / #
I understand her reasoning and so therefore it didn't bother me, but I would say the fact that Cal knows that second time is when she gets pregnant, and that was his part of it, too? I feel like yeah, it's why he forgives her, right? I guess is what I..
Sarah MacLean 30:55 / #
Eventually, eventually right? But Jen, she's in cold storage.
Jennifer Prokop 31:02 / #
Oh god, yes. And she deserves to be it. Terrible. And in fact, when he confronts her, one of the things I liked about her, though, is when he confronts her, and he is furious. And we are really like, Oh my god, and she is just like, kind of stuck, and this is when she actually says the words in the title, right? "It's nobody's baby but mine" and she actually stops herself. And it's, actually, that's not true. And it's a really important moment, because we also see, she did something terrible, but she's not lying to herself about it either. And I think that's why it works.
Sarah MacLean 31:46 / #
I mean, there's so much about it. It's so deft. For all the times that I've talked about this book publicly, and on panels, and with readers about how bananas The plot is, and how light. And I always joke: oh, it's fine, it's fine. But the reality is, is that this is so deftly written every second of this, the first 30% of this book is so carefully crafted, so that as a reader you both fully understand these two characters and are fully on the side of both of them, and fully fully against both of them. Like the whole time.
Jennifer Prokop 32:25 / #
It's amazing. It's an amazing feat. It really is.
Sarah MacLean 32:28 / #
It is really magnificent. From a craft perspective, as far as building characters in a contemporary, I mean in anything, but especially in a contemporary, working with like this is kind of really, it's tightrope walking.
Jennifer Prokop 32:44 / #
Yes, and I would also like to point out, the conflict here is is so rich, it's so dynamic, it is constantly changing and moving. It is slow moving and fast moving at the same time. I mean, there's no, this is not people just sitting around talking about their feelings.
Sarah MacLean 33:06 / #
No. So okay, so what happened? So we so are now at a place where Jane is pregnant, and Cal has found out, and he comes to her. She's teaching physics class at her at her University. And he walks in and he sees her and he is like standing leaning against the wall like pure alpha sex. And the whole room is like, "What the fuck is happening?" And he looks at the class and he's like class is over.
Sarah MacLean 33:37 / #
And my panties just fell right off.
Jennifer Prokop 33:41 / #
I was like, Oh, that's hot. Yeah, it was great. And she's trying to cover, like I was almost done anyway, so we'll just meet again next time.
Sarah MacLean 33:52 / #
So anyway, It's really perfect, but also I want to say he's, he's pissed on a number of levels right? He's pissed that she's having, that one is: she stole a baby from me right? Two is: now he's got to fucking face his mortality. Lik at his age, he can't live the life he was living now because he obviously, he doesn't believe, he refers to it as strays. He doesn't believe in stray kids. And so like he's fucked because he has to marry-- then there's like a little bit of a, it's a little "romance reasons" he's like we have to get married. So they get married and then on top of all of this, then he's really pissed that she thinks he's stupid. Like that's really the worst, almost the worst infraction for Cal
Jennifer Prokop 34:49 / #
Also, that she's old, right?
Sarah MacLean 34:53 / #
Actually he thinks, he thinks she's 28
Jennifer Prokop 34:57 / #
Well, he's outraged she's that old right? She's 34! So he says, tell everyone you're 26. She's like, Okay, sure.
Sarah MacLean 35:06 / #
So anyway, he says, well we've got to get married, and then you're gonna have, we're gonna get married, we're not having a bastard. And she's like, "what the fuck" What? That's not a thing." And he's like, we're not doing it. And then he's like, then you're going to have the baby, and then we're going to get a divorce. And then I'm going to pay, I'll pay. I have my financial duties to the child, but you can't have any of my money. And she's like, Fuck off. Like, I don't want any of this. And he's like, too bad. We're doing it, or I will keep you, I have enough money. I have more money than God and I will keep you in legal fees forever and file for full custody of this baby. And I'll get it because Look who I am.
Jennifer Prokop 35:46 / #
And look what you did to me.
Sarah MacLean 35:47 / #
Yeah, yeah. Um, you're both like, Wow, what an asshole and like, Oh my god, she really did a terrible thing and I get it.
Jennifer Prokop 35:54 / #
This is like the opposite of the secret baby plot in the sense that the secret baby plot, we've talked about this, hinges upon us really believing that the hero wants the heroine more than the baby. That it's like the catalyst, right? And in this case, he's like, I don't want jack shit to do with you, but this is my gonna be my child and I'm gonna I'm not gonna hold any of this against this child, but you, I don't want it. But I want that baby. And it's really interesting because that is the antithesis of what we expect from a secret baby outcome, emotionally.
Sarah MacLean 36:36 / #
But it is, but again, it's really deftly done because he doesn't forget about her. He's thinking about her all the time. You know, him discovering that she's pregnant. There's still so much romance coded into it. I mean, it's so smart. So then they go off, so then they go to get married, a quickie marriage at City Hall, except, of course the Chicago Tribune finds out and then it's everywhere and they have to run. And so they go back to the Carolinas. North Carolina? It's North Carolina, right? Western North Carolina, I don't know if that's the Smoky Mountains or what it is, but it's right
Jennifer Prokop 37:13 / #
it's near Asheville.
Sarah MacLean 37:14 / #
Appalachian Mountains, and they are living, basically he's bought a house that was ownedby a televangelist. And is hideous inside
Jennifer Prokop 37:26 / #
like real cheese ball over the top, you know just terrible.
Sarah MacLean 37:31 / #
And he introduces her to his family and he makes her fake being in love with him.
Jennifer Prokop 37:37 / #
He also makes her fake being terrible to them, Right?remember this part where he's like you You have to be awful.
Sarah MacLean 37:45 / #
Don't make them like you.
Jennifer Prokop 37:47 / #
Yeah, they've had a tragedy in the family. His brother's wife and child died in a car accident and he's like, I don't want them to like you. I don't want them to be close to you when you leave. I want them to not feel this way. And it's it's fascinating because of course, this plays right into-- all she's ever wanted is to be part of a family,
Sarah MacLean 38:08 / #
Right because her relationship, her mother died, Her father was terrible.
Jennifer Prokop 38:12 / #
And so it's again, here's another, we're digging even deeper into this conflict where the one thing she desperately wanted was a family. This baby of her own is going to be her way of doing it. And here is Cal's shiny, amazing family and she can't be a part of it. And they're nice people and she hates it.
Sarah MacLean 38:36 / #
I think we have to talk about Grandma, too-- who gets-- Oh, yeah. Okay, this is another grandma right? Who it's like a Lord of Scoundrels-style Grandma, who smokes and drinks and sits on her porch with a shotgun. Yeah, and also gets it instantly. Like when they're alone that in the first meeting, grandma looks at Jane and says, How old? How old are you? How old Did he tell you to tell us you are?
Jennifer Prokop 39:06 / #
Yeah, you know? And she says, I've never I don't know why he's so committed. And like, Why is he so invested in being young? I mean, she like recognizes that it's all on him.
All of it. And then and then there's also I really believe that the relationship between Cal's parents is really a perfect secondary relationship in this book.
I really, I really want to talk about that too. And so basically, after the grandchild and daughter-in-law died, these fault lines are sort of uncovered in the parents marriage, and that comes into play in the second half in a really interesting way. But really, what we're seeing is this battle of the Titans between Jane and Cal. She realizes hey, maybe I'm not a pushover. And he...there's this part where he talks about how he's "a yeller," he just, that's how he communicates. He can't help it and she is the only woman who's ever really fought him back, who's essentially run run right into the tackle. And that is the part about this relationship that develops-- and is one of my, a lot of my favorite scenes are ones where they are essentially yelling at each other. And in one, when he figures out how old she really is, is the same time. The same time she figures that he graduated summa cum laude from the University of Michigan with a biology degree
Sarah MacLean 39:49 / #
And they are so pissed at each other
Jennifer Prokop 39:53 / #
They actually have like a literal knock them down, drag 'em out fight on grandma's front lawn. But you know what, like, what's amazing is for many authors, that would be like the end of it, but instead like, that's just the beginning. Right? We get a scene where she--this is the one I always remember from the books-- takes all the marshmallows out of his lucky charms.
Sarah MacLean 41:06 / #
Yeah, he's a she's a cereal killer. Right? It's so smart. It's
Jennifer Prokop 41:12 / #
She locks him out of the house and he has to break back in. I mean, and so that's it. And that's the part too, when we talk about taking the finger, right? There are ways in which she really leaned so hard into ... what we're seeing isn't, it's gonna continue to escalate. But in a way where we're both seeing them, like really come into their own as people and lovers, right? It's brilliant.
Sarah MacLean 41:43 / #
It's so, so good. It's so well done. And then on top of it, so the first two times that they have sex, so first of all, I want to say Susan Elizabeth Phillips is one of the only, possibly the only romance novelist who I think can write bad sex. This sex is bad. Yeah, she has another book called Mr.... Shit, I can't remember, Call Me Irresistible, I think is the one that I'm thinking of. But we'll confirm the title and put it in show notes. But the the premise is that the heroine... that somebody's... The hero has been left at the altar, and the heroine's best friend has run from the marriage. And he is legendary. He's known as like the most legendary lover in the world. Everyone knows that, this is one of his claims to fame. He's fantastic. And they fuck and she's like, this is fine. Like it's and it feels fine on the page.
And you're like...I don't, I don't... and I as a romance writer, this is a real struggle. Writing great sex is really hard to do, But writing mediocre or bad sex is even harder, Intentionally mediocre or bad sex is harder. And so the first two times they [Jane and Cal] have sex, they have terrible sex. Iit's just not.... it's fast, kind of first It's a little painful, like there are orgasms involved, but they're not even like great orgasms they're just orgasms. Like it's all very like clinical. And then, and Jane is dressed for both of those encounters. And then she's but then it's like a whole thing. When they get up there to the mountains, and they start to sort of unlock, she refused, he still has never seen her naked. And her nakedness is like a big piece of the puzzle. And then it's almost I don't want to spoil it for those of you who haven't read it because it's really magnificent, but the moment he finally sees her naked. It is one of the greatest laughs I have ever had while reading while reading. Truly like it's, it's a great big belly laugh of a moment and it still gets me even though now I know it's coming.
Jennifer Prokop 44:19 / #
Well and I've spent so long since I've read it I completely forgotten and I was like, oh!
Sarah MacLean 44:26 / #
but it's so, so good in moment, and it's so embarrassing and funny.
Jennifer Prokop 44:31 / #
And tender, right?
Sarah MacLean 44:32 / #
It all feels that way! And then he finally goes to her. And it's one of the most authentic, honest, romantic moments in the book. And it's because it was so horrifying and emotional and embarrassing before. It's just, it feels like Susan just has the, she can peak and valley in a way. It's just there are some writers there. there are writers in every genre who are masters and she's just a master at it.
Jennifer Prokop 45:09 / #
Yeah, it really worked for me. I would say the other thing about this book that's so pleasing, because remember at the beginning we talked about how we both love them both and understand both, but hate them both. So Jane begins the book in cold storage. She's the one who has done something terrible! But Cal is the one who ends up in cold storage at the end and I gotta tell you, I in rereading this, I was like, you know who created my love and devotion to cold storage? It's Susan Elizabeth Phillips! Here is a woman who knows how to make a hero suffer. And so it's really interesting because it's weeks! Basically um, you know, we don't want to have to get into kind of spoiler territory, but she really emotionally cannot commit right? Like they get it, they get to a good place, right? They kind of get past all of this. But what they haven't really beaten is his, he's really stuck in the present. He doesn't want to think about a future, because thinking about a future means thinking about leaving football, and thinking about what's next. And he hasn't ever figured that out and so he can't, he just can't let himself do that. And she has been sort of building these castles in the air about they're... like "this is all going to work out and we're going to be so happy." And what happens is she fucking takes off in her shitty like Ford Escort and goes to live with the you know, the grandmother. And then Cal's mom has also left her husband and these women are living in a Smith College dorm, essentially.
Sarah MacLean 46:55 / #
Oh my god, I'm gonna spoil that scene at night. Yeah, when he comes in to her. So she goes across over onto the other side of the mountain. She leaves him to the other side of the mountain. And the the women take her in. And then there's that magnificent scene where she's asleep. And there's a storm outside and she wakes up and he's there. And it's very Rune and Josie. And he's there. And he's, like, "Come back with me." And she's like, no. And they have a kind of quick conversation. And then his mom is knocking on the door. She's like, "do you have a man in there?" And Jane says yes. And he's like, "Why the fuck did you tell her?" And then the mom is like, "do you want him in there?" And Jane says no. And it's so heartbreaking because of course she does want him in there! but like he's been such an asshole and he's such a dummy and why, like and why why is he such a dummy? And then the mom is like, can you come stay with me? You sleep in my bed with me. And she goes
Jennifer Prokop 48:01 / #
It's really. it's, you know what it's really it is magnificent here's, the other thing, So now is maybe a good time to talk about this B plot love story. Which it's, I love this book but it's ironic, because one of the reasons I haven't read a new Susan Elizabeth Phillips book in a long time. And one of the reasons I stopped is because the secondary romances essentially started becoming like equal, the A and the B romances essentially became indistinguishable in later books. And I didn't really enjoy it. I don't know, maybe I'm just a dummy and I just want I really want the tight focus on the main romantic subplot, and I found myself frustrated by other ones and so it was really interesting because it's around 50% when Cal's parents sort of bubble up as being... okay, we're gonna get their story, and I had forgotten. And I remember as I was reading, I thought Thank God it's not gonna like take over, This was yesterday as I was rereading, thank god this is not going to take over. It's not what I want. But I think there's a couple really brilliant things that happen with this. One is it gives the reader something to focus on while Cal is in cold storage. Because if you really want it to feel like someone is suffering for...you can't just say "two weeks later" right? And it's two paragraphs later. So it gives the readers, it gives our author and the reader something to do while the time is passing. But also it's this really it's like, if Jane and Cal don't get this straightened out now, this is what's gonna happen later. Right? So it's like forewarning A potential bad outcome. And I think it's and that's the part I also thought was really brilliant, along with one of the most heart wrenching stories of a man doing someone dirty I have ever read and I cannot believe I repressed it, I read it again. And it was just as painful,
Sarah MacLean 50:21 / #
It's devastating. the story behind Cal's parents. So Cal's father is a doctor who was in medical school and his mother sold cookies in a hospital, and he'd never he basically like, he denied that he knew and was in love with her
Jennifer Prokop 50:38 / #
that they were married! That was his baby!
Sarah MacLean 50:53 / #
It's so heart wrenching, and she stays with him. And so for me also, there's this piece of like, it feels very real because it feels generationally, like we've talked before about women of a generation, even even just one generation above us like feeling trapped. And not being able to get out of a relationship. That is, that is so upsetting. It's also like there's something in here about education and class, and and all the other... this book. Really for a book that is so hilariously funny, And so romantic, It's also, it's a lot about age. It's a lot about class. It's a lot about like how you prejudge people, it's about education. It's about location. Like, there are so many layers of the way that we judge each other, including people we love.
Jennifer Prokop 51:57 / #
I think the other thing I found myself thinking about about is I, I think this is really a book about the cavalier way in which we talk about women trapping men with pregnancy. But not ever really digging into the many ways that women in unhappy marriages are trapped by marriage. Does that make sense? So it's the whole story about Cal's parents is she trapped him, right? She was 15 when she got pregnant, 16 when she had Cal. He's graduating from high school and she had to stand under the bleachers to go see it because she's basically been kicked out of high school for the thing that they did together. And so the whole story is she trapped him. She was trash and she trapped him and then she had to drop her mountain girl persona to become the doctor's wife, but we see that she was trapped, too. There's a real I don't know, uncovering, I think, of like, what, what is it? What does it mean when we talk about trapping someone into marriage? Like everybody loses. And I I don't know, it was really poignant.
Sarah MacLean 53:11 / #
And it's heartbreaking, because it doesn't come up. They never talk about it. And I know, you know, my mom doesn't listen to the podcast, so I can say this. But like, I feel like my parents didn't talk about so many of the things that were deeply embedded in their marriage. And maybe there are things I don't talk to my husband about that are deeply embedded in our marriage. I don't know, like, maybe this is just marriage, but it feels like that relationship could easily have just never been healed. Like it could have just lived its whole life with the story of Cookie Girl and standing under the bleachers. And you have this kind of moment of deep relief when they finally acknowledge that skeleton and like can move forward in some way
Jennifer Prokop 54:06 / #
Well and that's the part about the cold storage, I think for both Cal...both for for Lynn, Cal's mom, and for for Jane is the first time a man comes back to apologize how how quickly they are I don't know, socialized to just say, okay thank you. Just apologizing once is going to be enough for me and and the way Lynn has to essentially force herself to say, it's still not good enough, I've never in our 37 years of marriage said to you "I deserve more" but I do. and and Jane as well. Like I deserve more, but I deserve more. And it's that's the part about this even though I've made a mistake, even though I did shitty, terrible things, I'm not going to pay for them forever. I still deserve more. It's really powerful. It really is.
Sarah MacLean 55:12 / #
I mean it's really it's fabulous and then it all like she just never gives up, Susan never lets she never lets up, she every like you get to, I don't know like 90% of the way through this book right? There's the fight finally his dad comes in and is like, young lady, you have to talk to my son. And the new quarterback from the Chicago stars is there for some weird romance, and Grandma has her shot gun and like everyone's there like it's like a nonsense play. It's like a farce. Yeah. And you're watching all these people. And you think to yourself Cal's gonna profess His love, and it's finally going to be over and instead The conversation like starts and he's like "everything about you fucking irritates me," and Every woman is like what the hell is wrong?
Jennifer Prokop 56:14 / #
Even the other quarterback,
Sarah MacLean 56:16 / #
He's great the other quarterback, who is younger, but also it's that perfect example of like how it's it reminded me of Kresley, right like when we did A Hunger Like No Other, and we were like she's telling the story of the way romance is shifting, too. Susan...Cal is an old school alpha hero who like is feeling feelings for the first time and doesn't like it. What's his name Tyler? What's his name?
Jennifer Prokop 56:43 / #
Kevin. Kevin Tucker.
Sarah MacLean 56:46 / #
Yeah, Kevin is like a new evolved, cool hero who's deeply in touch with his emotions. And it's like, why don't you understand that ladies like to be treated well? And it's awesome to see the two of them together especially because like it's so overt, the metaphor is so overt like, yes, Cal's a dinosaur, he's a dinosaur in the football field. He's a dinosaur as a man. Like, he has to evolve or he's gonna die.
Jennifer Prokop 57:20 / #
Yeah. And and Jane is, I think one of my favorite moments in here, there are many that are good, is the part where she she locks him out of the house. And she, I mean, we're talking like she dismantles the electronic gate. She locks all of the doors to the house, she fiddles with the alarm. And the way that he gets in is he essentially has to scale the house and go over the roof and through like the doors on like a bedroom on the second floor, and he's actually infuriated that she didn't lock them. Didn't she think he was good enough to get up there and open those doors right?
Sarah MacLean 58:07 / #
Oh my god. It's so perfect though, right? Like I would never think t write that. But it's so perfect
Jennifer Prokop 58:13 / #
It is so perfect.
Sarah MacLean 58:15 / #
It has such a male shitty thing in the moment.
Jennifer Prokop 58:21 / #
Yes, I mean, let's look at the many ways in which she tried to keep me from this house but she didn't do this one thing so she didn't really mean it. And, and that's it like their entire... but the thing that she realizes, and then he's yelling at her. And she stops and thinks, I wonder what it was like when he yelled at he's like these 21 year old women. And she realizes. She stops and she's like, he never would have done that. And that's when she realizes that he's in love with her too. He just won't admit it and doesn't know it. And that's the part where she sees him so much more clearly. He goes down to Texas to see Bobby Tom and is convinced the Bobby Tom is just putting on the the fiction of being happy because no one could ever be happy if they weren't playing football and when he comes back and he like says that her. She's basically like, What the fuck is wrong with this dummy? He thinks football is more important than family? And even Cal's mom is like "he grew up in a happy family. I don't know where this comes from." It is amazing. It is so good.
Sarah MacLean 59:29 / #
It's so perfect. And then the grand gesture at the end. Like where he's like I really wanted to win a football game because that's what football players do. And she's like, what the fuck? And then he's like, but I get it, I get that's not what you need. And everything about it, It's just so good. And it's so cinematic too, we haven't talked about when at the first part, where you know you sort of feel like you're watching a play and some of them in some of the the scenes but it really does feel like I want to see this, I want to see this movie. if somebody said to me "what romance novels should absolutely be a movie" like it feels like this one. It's so fun. It's perfect
Jennifer Prokop 1:00:23 / #
Yeah, I think this is the thing where to me when we talk about like ROM-coms, right which is like a marketing term now but actually meant back then. And in the 90s was prime time for rom-com movies, too. But this manages to hit all of the romance novel beats without humiliating the heroine, which I think is where a lot of ROM coms now go wrong. And really keep a tight focus on the romance while introducing lots of really charming sub, sort of second string characters. There's a lot of like physical comedy and humor, there's a lot of... it is in fact cinematic, that's a great word for it I think it's inventive in a way. it really is putting something on page that was
Sarah MacLean 1:01:19 / #
Jennifer. on past AMA's, you have said "I don't think ROM coms exist."
Jennifer Prokop 1:01:25 / #
Yeah well I mean now. They existed then. I don't I mean... this, Jenny Crusie,
Sarah MacLean 1:01:33 / #
If you are out there, in the ether, listening to us and you are thinking everybody says publishing wants ROM coms What do they really mean? Read the book. Read this book because it beat for beat. It's just exactly what you want in a rom com.
Jennifer Prokop 1:01:51 / #
Yes. Yeah, absolutely.
Sarah MacLean 1:01:54 / #
And heavy on the ROM. we talk all the time about how romance is hard as a genre. One of the one of the things that enrages me about the level of disdain that the world has for romance as a genre is the complete disregard for the fact that when you're writing romantic suspense, it has to exist as both suspense and romance. You have to have a mystery and romance when you're writing historical romance, it has to be historically, it has to be a historical novel and also romance. This is a perfectly balanced,
Jennifer Prokop 1:02:34 / #
this book is also 23 years old. So right, and it is it is spectacular.
Sarah MacLean 1:02:43 / #
It is the Lord of scoundrels of rom com,
Jennifer Prokop 1:02:47 / #
This and Jenny Crusie,
Sarah MacLean 1:02:48 / #
I know you really like Bet Me. And for me, I haven't read Bet Me in 25 years. So for me this is like the gold standard, but we're going to do Bet Me, too. Maybe we should do Bet Me next
Jennifer Prokop 1:03:02 / #
Yeah, well this and Welcome to Temptation and Bet Me are... but I mean those were 2000? Welcome to Temptation was 2000, Bet Me was probably 2001, 2002. yes so this was all a really tight and you know maybe and after 9/11 it was just harder to do. I don't know it's really interesting to consider.
Sarah MacLean 1:03:26 / #
Well there was that great moment on Saturday Night Live the the week that they came back after 9/11 and Lorne Michaels stood there with Rudy Giuliani, who was mayor at the time and Lorne Michael said, "Can we be funny?" and Rudy Giuliani said, "why start now?" And so and it's like that. I don't know, I don't know if rom com did exist short of, Maybe it was just to Susan and Jenny. I mean, it was also Laura Zigman. And then of course, there was Helen Fielding like, right in that the sort of wake of 9/11 was the rise of the Chic Lit.
Jennifer Prokop 1:04:08 / #
It's interesting that you talk about the "can we be funny again" thing. Do you remember what was in The Onion when they came back online after 9/11? It was a very a set of very similar types of things. And there's one that is like basically really bitterly funny, which was God holding a press conference, telling people to stop killing people using his name. And I I remember thinking nothing will ever be funny again.
Sarah MacLean 1:04:37 / #
And it will be.
Jennifer Prokop 1:04:39 / #
I know.
Sarah MacLean 1:04:40 / #
I mean, I think it's important. Part of me feels really good about doing this this week. I like the fact that it's a forced proximity story. Like there's some very overt reasons why I think this is a nice choice for this week. But also I'm really glad we did it because it's really funny. I laughed out loud reading this book today.
Jennifer Prokop 1:04:59 / #
Yes.
Sarah MacLean 1:05:00 / #
Yeah, today is not a day that is easy to laugh out loud on. So I'm, you know, Susan, I've said this to your actual face. And I texted you this today. And I don't know if you will ever listen to this podcast, but if you do just know that like this book. I mean, it is. It's one of my very, very favorites and I'm so grateful for it.
Jennifer Prokop 1:05:26 / #
Me too. It was really wonderful to read it again.
Sarah MacLean 1:05:32 / #
All right.
So well, we talked about doing that me again, but we'd also talked about the Victoria Dohl.
Jennifer Prokop 1:05:40 / #
Yeah, I don't remember the name. You were like Cunnilingus Gabe, I was like, I don't think that's the title.
Sarah MacLean 1:05:49 / #
Hang on. Eric's gonna be like what now? It feels like when you Google "Victoria Dahl cunnilingus" it should just populate but... Ah, it's Taking the Heat. And it's number three in her girls night out series but you don't have to read the others. It is a proper standalone and Victoria we are going to read, and we are going to talk about sex with Victoria as well. Because and it's gonna be a different kind of conversation than we did about Tessa.... not Tessa Dare....Tessa.
Jennifer Prokop 1:06:29 / #
Tessa. Bailey. the queen of dirty talk.
Sarah MacLean 1:06:35 / #
Yeah, Tessa Bailey, and, and the, but it's about a dude librarian who really likes to eat ladies out. I shouldn't say, that that's gross. That's a gross way of saying it It's about a dude librarian who really likes...
Jennifer Prokop 1:07:02 / #
His nickname is Cunnilingus Gabe, Sarah, I think we all get what he likes to do.
Sarah MacLean 1:07:11 / #
And it's pretty great. But also there's a there's a really beautiful like, the heroine writes an advice column in a small town. He's a librarian. And there's a really great bullying subplot like a school bully subplotthat I really think is beautiful, and I really like this book. So we're gonna do that next. Awesome. Otherwise, what else should you know about us? Oh, call us call us! We are very excited every time you leave us voicemail messages is really saying anything but especially when you tell us about books that blooded you As a romance reader.You can get pins and stickers from Best Friend Kelly. If you just go to our website, you can click on merge and go direct to her store there. Our website is fadedmates dot net, but just be aware of things shifting with post offices. So Jordan Dene, which is where all of my T shirts exist. She is closing the shop until the quarantines slash isolations slash whatever we're calling it today is over because she wants to keep mail workers as safe as possible.
Jennifer Prokop 1:08:28 / #
I would just say everybody, stay safe. stay at home if you can.
Sarah MacLean 1:08:33 / #
Wash your hands.
Jennifer Prokop 1:08:34 / #
Yeah, and be if you are out in the world, be as kind and thoughtful as possible to people who are working on our behalf. And if you see someone being shitty to them, step up and tell that person to buzz off.
Sarah MacLean 1:08:48 / #
Usin those exact words, and also tip your delivery people.
Jennifer Prokop 1:08:55 / #
Oh, like an insane amount. Yes. Whatever you can do.
Sarah MacLean 1:08:58 / #
They're really taken brunt of it. So yeah, love you guys stay safe Keep us posted on the books that you're reading tell us if you've read anything that's as funny as Nobody's Baby But Mine is, we're looking! And have a great week.
Unknown Speaker 1:09:13 / #
Hi Fated Mates fam. My name is Rosalie and the book that blooded me was Susan Elizabeth Phillips' Natural Born Charmer, Book number seven in her Chicago star series and it came out in 2008. Sarah, I think you'll laugh at this. I was at the JFK Airport, going home to Chicago and had just finished a book when they announced a three hour delay. To my dismay, I had nothing to read. So I was roaming and perusing and I saw a mass market paperback with a bright red cover and had this woman in a flowing dark dress and just knew from the cover that this book would get me out of my travel blues. I think it was Kismet because although I didn't start in Chicago ended up in Chicago and I just didn't know how I had missed this entire genre for 32 years of my life. It has really given me an opportunity to see these great authors and understand women in ways I hadn't before. So I really appreciate all the authors who put their hard work out there and to you and Jen Sarah, for talking about it every week. So thank you so much. Thank you so much. Bye
S02.28: “It’s Sinister, right?! - Devil's Bride by Stephanie Laurens
This week we’re reading a favorite of both Sarah & Jen — Stephanie Laurens’s Devil’s Bride! We’re so excited to talk about ridiculous (we mean amazing) nicknames, about 30 page sex scenes, and about how we crushed our SATs thanks to romances like this one! We’re also hoping you are keeping a safe distance from others and washing your hands lots!
We love having you with us! — subscribe on your favorite podcasting platform and like/review the podcast, please!
Next week, we’re reading Susan Elizabeth Phillips’s Nobody’s Baby But Mine, and we cannot WAIT. We know it’s tough to get it in print, but find it in e at your local library or at: Amazon (free in Kindle Unlimited!), Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo, or your local indie.
Show Notes
Please stay inside and stay safe if you can, and remember not to believe screenshots from your cousins.
Here are some interesting and well-sourced tweets about coronavirus from a Fos (Friend of Sarah).
Want to know the other books Jen ordered back in 2001? It was Grand Passion by Jane Ann Krennz, Prince of Swords Anne Stuart, and Innocence by Suzanne Forester. She still swears she didn't read any of them.
Captain Jack's Woman was Stephanie Laurens' debut novel, not Devil's Bride. But it's the Bar Cynster that made her such a popular writer.
Sometimes (ok, a lot) Jen shit-posts on twitter about conflict and writing. Sarah can't always have eyes on her, sorry.
Jen thinks it was Amanda Quick that brought back old-fashioned names, but the only truly great Sylvesteris from disco.
"Eyes on stalks" is a real phrase, and so is rapaciously. On the other hand, here's a bunch of sex scene euphamisms.
The Cynsters were at Waterloo, so we're not sure why busting through the hymen is such work for them.
All about the Greek chorus.
Lady Osbaldestone does have her own books, as do Devil and Honoria's kids.
Veronica Mars illustrates the fan service problem.
Jen is obsessed with the idea of "the imperial period" for musicians--and other kids of artists.
Next time, we'll be reading Nobody's Baby But Mine by Susan Elizabeth Phillips.
S02.25: Asking For Trouble: Tessa Bailey is the Queen of Dirty Talk
This week we're mixing it up, talking about an author more than a specific book -- the Queen of Dirty Talk herself, Tessa Bailey. But we're not just talking about the sexybits -- we're also talking about working class heroes, women and worry and how awesome it is to watch authors evolve.
We love having you with us! — subscribe on your favorite podcasting platform and like/review the podcast if you’re so inclined!
In two weeks, we’re reading a book that blooded both Sarah and Jen — and approximately 50% of Romancelandia, we think -- Stephanie Laurens's Devil's Bride, starring Devil Cynster, who also happens to be the only romance hero Sarah's husband can name (yes, even now). Find it at: Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo, or your local indie.
Show Notes
Sarah was heading to Birmingham for the Southern Voices Book Festival. The last time she was there, it was when she was a kid going to a Science Olympiad competition. Based on the description of that event, Jen suspects that she was outside orienteering. She's going to see Rachel Hawkins and Naima Simone!
Meanwhile, Jen went to see Bug by Tracy Letts at the Steppenwolf Theater, which is known for being the home theater of John Malkovich and also where hope goes to die.
Jen wrote about Johanna Lindsey and her New York Times obituary in a column for Kirkus.
The hero of Protecting What's His is Derek Tyler, which is Jen's second favorite romance Derek. Derek and Ginger also appear in a follow-up novella, Protecting What's Theirs. Derek also appears as a secondary character in the Crossing the Lines series, where he assembles a team of ex-cons and misfits as a special crime fighting team. Ginger's sister gets her own book in Unfixable.
The rise of eBooks made room for indie publishing and small presses like Entangled. Here's the story of how Barabara Freethy took advantage of the Kindle revolution.
Enemies to Lovers is one of the most beloved romance tropes. Jen is going to talk about her whole energy theory in an upcoming Kirkus column.
This is a romance that deals with class in an unusual way--she's the poor little rich girl, while he's working two jobs because of family obligations to his siblings.
Tessa Bailey is the Queen of Dirty Talk. She just is. Jen's favorite is Duke from Worked Up, who is a perfect grunting hero.
Jen noticed that several motifs that appear in Asking for Trouble appear in other books -- for example, there is a trip to Atlantic City in Worked Up, and connecting doors in a hotel room in Driven by Fate.
Sarah identifies "heroine as rock" as part of Tessa Bailey's core story, Jen noticed the pull between familial duty and individual needs. At first Sarah thought Tessa's most recent book, Love Her or Lose Her, doesn't fit into the core story...but after talking it through, she thinks it fits perfectly.
Sarah mentioned the one with a hero who is a recovering alcoholic called Indecent Exposure. Jen also loved it and reviewed it for The Book Queen.
Some advice in case you ever need to stop a wedding.
Buy buttons and stickers from Kelly at Jen's shop and the newly available full line of t-shirts from Jordandene.
Listen to this week's music selections and peruse this episode's transcript.
Next time on Fated Mates, we'll be reading Devil's Bride by Stephanie Laurens.
TRANSCRIPT
Sarah MacLean 0:00
Yeah, I'm big mad. I told Eric we were we were having a late addition to the to the podcast schedule this week.
Jennifer Prokop 0:14
I told Darryl the same thing. I was like, look, so I'm recording tonight and he's like, "only one episode?" I was like, "Yes, it will be roughly 800 hours long."
Sarah MacLean 0:22
I know. You'll never see me again.
Jennifer Prokop 0:24
My fury will not be contained.
Sarah MacLean 0:30
Body autonomy, Jennifer.
Jennifer Prokop 0:33
It's all a girl wants
Sarah MacLean 0:37
I'm just a girl standing in front of the world, asking for you to get your hands out of my uterus.
Jennifer Prokop 0:44
You know, I used to say "my uterus" a lot like people be like, "Why do--" "I'm like my uterus!" And I think back then there are some men in my life who thought it was like charming or funny. I'm like, "Did you think I was kidding? Motherfucker. Get your hands out of my fucking uterus."
Sarah MacLean 1:03
Yeah. Well, Victoria Dahl had this great tweet today about hysteria. And how hysteria is the truth that they always spoke of, but never really wanted to see. And I was like that feels right to me today. So you guys the world is aflame again. It's 2019. So like, again still, I was on the subway today and someone said to me, "I just sometimes wonder like, Am I drinking tea on the Titanic? And is it before or after we hit the iceberg?" Like, this is all fair.
Jennifer Prokop 1:40
Yeah, it's how it feels, right? There's a thing that we talked about at school where it's like, like "the bomb face," right? Something goes so wrong that you just have that thousand-yard stare. And I feel at some point, it's me and every woman I know. And I just want to say I think a lot about the women who live in states where, this, they're on the front lines.
Sarah MacLean 2:07
Yeah. So wait. I think we should, You probably know by now what we're talking about and who we are. If not, this is going to be a crash landing into Fated Mates with Sarah and Jen. I'm Sarah MacLean. I write romance novels. I read romance novels. I like to talk about romance novels.
Jennifer Prokop 2:28
Yeah, and I'm Jennifer Prokop. And I talk about romance on Twitter, and I'm a teacher and I basically believe that nobody's business what's going on in anybody's uterus.
Sarah MacLean 2:42
Yeah, I got it. I agree. Can I just cosign that? And are we done now? Four minutes in? And that's where we stand.
Jennifer Prokop 2:49
here's here's where I think we came up with this idea is what we did was kind of
Sarah MacLean 2:54
it's a what date is it? It's May, it's May something 15?
Jennifer Prokop 2:59
No. 16
Sarah MacLean 3:00
I think 16th but yesterday was May 15, and some real shitty laws were passed in, or a law was was passed in Alabama. Regarding abortion,
Jennifer Prokop 3:12
well, and by the time you hear this, which which should be next Wednesday, the 22nd. It might be that these laws have passed in Missouri and in Michigan. I mean, like these are laws that are like making their way through states.
Sarah MacLean 3:28
Yeah, the Republicans are coming for Roe. And Jen and I are big mad.
Jennifer Prokop 3:36
Yeah, well, and I think the way that we're always both interested in talking about things is like, how does romance-- which is like a genre we both profoundly love-- like help us understand where women are, where women have been, and what our future will be. Kind of in a relationship with our bodies. And I think that, you know, one thing -- We really want to be sensitive for sure. I think there's a lot of like, "if, you know, men could be pregnant, there'd be, you know, like abortion kiosks at every Walgreens" or whatever. And we're not looking to be that has like, I think it that's language is really trans-exclusionary, right. But at the same time, we were really interested in talking about this without talking about gender?
Sarah MacLean 4:34
Yeah. Well, I want to acknowledge the trans men are extra terrified right now and have every right to be. yeah. And I think, you know, I said earlier today to somebody, this is a conversation that needs to be had about every person with a uterus and so I think both of us just want to set that set that out at the start, but this is gonna it's a tough conversation to have without using gendered Yeah. language so forgive us, for..
Jennifer Prokop 5:01
We want to be sensitive to it and we want our listeners to be sensitive to it, too. And so it's a like mea culpa in advance, we're going to try to do our best but we like really welcome feedback, I guess, from for us like, it's important to us to be inclusive, but it's also like a conversation that so tied into the way gender and women's bodies and like actual, like physical parts are seen in the world and perceived in the world that it's hard to imagine that we won't. Like we were just going to do our best, everybody. But we're also, I think it's urgent to talk about it, especially in romance because, as we've talked about many, many weeks, this is the place where, like the interior life of a woman is really like the most fully developed. And for, for I think every woman these concerns about like reproductive organs and how they sometimes feel like they betray us, is one that I think is we're really interested in talking about.
Sarah MacLean 6:12
Yeah, so this episode is going to be different than all of our other episodes, it's still going to have a lot of books in it, where we encourage you to get a pen. Show notes will be extensive, but we're going to talk about bodies and, and the female body, and the parts of it and the things that happen inside us and the reasons why romance has always seemed to be a place where that's a safe conversation and a safe dialogue. For us to have but a big, the big I think reason why we're doing this this week is because yesterday, I asked on Twitter for people to hive mind a list of romances where... in which the heroine has a abortion, has an abortion without shame. And I think we got, what, like 15 books? And I think that is the thing that we should talk about. So we're going to talk about-- so content warning, we're going to obviously talk about abortion. We're going to talk about miscarriage. We're going to talk about stillbirth. We're going to talk about contraception. What else we're going to talk about?
Jennifer Prokop 7:31
My rage.
Sarah MacLean 7:32
A lot of rage, you guys asked for it! See, be careful what you wish for our listeners. Um, so where do you want to begin? You want to begin with [Fanny!] Fanny Hill. "Fanny Hill: Memoirs of a Woman of Pleasure," which is an erotic novel, written in 1748. Don't, don't be expecting this to be like Sierra Simone style.
Jennifer Prokop 8:02
I actually am really curious to read it in the light of that statement, a little levity.
Sarah MacLean 8:08
Wikipedia calls it "an erotic novel." That's what I have opened in front of me, because I wanted all the dates in front of me. It's written by a man named John Cleland. And it was published a serialized, So Jen would have loved it {on brand.} In 1748, I did not know this. So 1748 I'm going to repeat that because, holy crap. I did not know this, but John Cleland wrote it while he was in debtor's prison. And, it is considered I'm now just reading from Wikipedia, but "it is considered the first original English prose pornography and the first pornography to use the forum of the novel." It is one of the most banned books in history but is considered by many, including Maya Rodale, to be a primordial romance novel, to use a Kresley Cole term.
Jennifer Prokop 9:13
I actually love that. I love calling it a primordial romance novel.
Sarah MacLean 9:16
I mean, I and I think it probably is. So Fannie Mae-- Fannie Mae, that's a that is where you get your college loans from, which is a different rage. If any Fannie Mae or Sallie Mae? I don't know. Anyway, doesn't matter. Maybe we'll skip all that.
Jennifer Prokop 9:34
So we're never good with titles! How is that not on brand for us?
Sarah MacLean 9:39
There are there are a lot of editions. If you can find an edition of Fanny HIll with illustrations, they're super graphic. And also you can go on Wikipedia and there are several very graphic illustrations. So you know, enjoy yourselves. Enjoy yourselves. So okay, um, she writes letter there. It's written, it's epistolary, she is telling her own story to, uh, to to the recipient of two letters. And it's basically Fanny's life account, and I'm not going to get too deep into it, but essentially, her parents die, and she goes to London and she gets lured into a brothel. And it's the story of, sort of, her life in the brothel. And the reason why we're bringing up Fannie Mae--Fannie Mae, goddamnit! The reason why we're bringing up Fanny Hill is because, like, ultimately, she gets married to Charles the hero. And so that's why we call it a primordial romance novel. It does end with Fanny in happiness. There's, warning, a whole lot of like, problematic representation or prostitutes in this book, it was written in the 1740s, and it can be, like, very preachy about that. So, obviously, you know, consider the date of publication. Fun fact.
Jennifer Prokop 11:09
I'm gonna retcon this, this that like Sarah from Dreaming of You, that that's what she wrote. Matilda, right? I'm sure that's probably what it is.
Sarah MacLean 11:19
Yeah, yeah. Um, there is a lot of, just to talk about like etymology for a second, there is some discussion that the reason why like, you can call it, like some people call it vagina a Fanny is because of Fanny Hill. Um, so you know, fun facts, just fun little, you know, historical facts. But Fanny, importantly, spends a lot of time in a brothel, working in a brothel, where she loses her virginity. There's a bisexual Madam, I want to say in this book, and you know, there's a lot of sex in all different forms and all different places. And there are a lot of prostitutes who have to terminate pregnancies, and they do it on the page and Fanny sort of articulates how it's done. It's not super graphic if I, you know, if I recall correctly, but it is like abortion is on the page in this book, because of course it is! Contraception is on pages book, because of course it is! And it's 1750, so, let's set aside this idea that any of this is new. Because, as I've said, multiple times ad nauseum over the last few days, like women have been dealing with..
Jennifer Prokop 12:32
Unwanted pregnancies.
Sarah MacLean 12:33
Yeah. Since pregnancy began.
Jennifer Prokop 12:37
Sure. And you know what, it's really interesting because I feel like-- and you and I were chatting about this before we started recording-- that I'm pretty sure like my first introduction to abortion was like women and historical romances. Like somebody knew somebody who knew the right cup full of tea to drink. Yep. Right. And, and even though I can't name specific ones. Like, I just feel like I imprinted on that idea that there was, like there was a woman somewhere in the village who knew how to take care of this business. Yeah. And and that's who you went to see.
Sarah MacLean 13:12
I mean, and she was a midwife, right? Because so one of the things that we talked about all the time, you and I, and I mean, I'm sure we talked about it here, but like, the romance novel, from its very origins, has been a place where, at the beginning, a subset of women, right, like written for women, white women, white cishet women, right? Right, were able to have a dialogue in an enclosed space away from the prying eyes of patriarchy, right. So and we've talked about this over time, as romance has become more inclusive of marginalized people, is has become the literature of happiness and joy, and hope and how Happily ever after. And now in 2019, that's a political act, And it was frankly a political-- It's always been a political act, right, for marginalized people to live happily. Women have been marginalized as a block. ...forever. And so I think what's really interesting here is that when we talk about pregnancy, on the page, and we talk about abortion, on the page, you and I both have the same experience, which is when we were young, and we were reading those historical romances, it was a midwife in the village who was in charge of birthing children and taking care of it, if you didn't want one. And I don't just mean abortion. I mean, like contraception, too. Like it was midwives who had tinctures and tonics and teas. And [Yep] I'm the same way, Jen. Like, I'm pretty sure that I didn't... that my first understanding of abortion came from romance novels, like there was a trick to not getting pregnant.
Jennifer Prokop 15:06
Yeah. And this was something, in pop culture for me, that moment was the movie "Fast Times at Ridgemont High." Now it came out in 1982. And I did not see it, then I would have been too young. But at some point, like later on, right, I mean, I was I was 10 then, right? It's around nine or 10, or whatever. At some point later on, I saw it and there's this like, really matter of fact, like scene where the brother essentially takes, you know, takes this his sister into the clinic and she gets an abortion, and that's that. But I would say, like those to me, but like, really that that didn't even stick out to me the way the romance novel and the sense that like women took care of each other in these moments, was like really powerful for me. Like I often remember it, although you have an example we're going to talk about I
Sarah MacLean 15:57
have a really interesting example. Yeah
Jennifer Prokop 16:00
But for me, it was like women, you know, it's like a woman went to another woman or like whispered among the maids, like somebody knew who this person was. And in that sense, like one of the most powerful like, romances I've read with a miscarriage is called "The Mayor's Mission" by Piper Huguely, where she actually experiences, she has a miscarriage. And Virgil, who's the hero, is kind of like wanting to help Mandy, his wife, and he's like, sort of like, told by, essentially, the the midwife in their village like this is Women's Business. And I think that the reason it stuck out to me is because that very much felt like, I felt that, right? When that midwife says that to Virgil, "this is Women's Business," that even though I feel differently about it today in terms of like how men and reproduction things happen, that ultimately, that was how I imprinted on this idea.
Sarah MacLean 17:03
I mean, I think that it's certainly I feel differently. It's complicated. That should be a show title of this. It's complicated. So I just turned 40. And like, my body's doing all sorts of weird shit. I'm like, I think about all the ways that like, something strange happens, and I think to myself, like, "oh, Is that normal? Like, is that is this just a thing that happens now?" And I don't like say anything to my husband, I call my friends or I asked my sister, or like, I, I sort of reference it in passing to someone who is, you know, has the same parts as me and I say, like, hey, "Has this ever happened to you?" And then suddenly, you have these moments where you're like, "Oh, wait, that has happened to me" and we never... women, I think all the time about Emily Nagoski's "Come As You Are." So, Emily writes, Emily's amazing. Right now, she's sort of everywhere in romance, because she, she wrote these wonderful contemporary romances under the name Emily Foster. The first one is called "How Not to Fall" and the second is called "How Not to Let Go." It's a duology, you have to read both, but they're both published. But she's also a sex educator, and has a PhD in human sexuality. [Oh, wow.] First of all, you want to know who writes a hot hot hot sex scene? Somebody with a PhD in human sexuality like, yeah. Emily's first book, non fiction book, written as Emily Nagoski, is called "Come As You Are," and it's basically like a informational guide to women and sex. And I bought it and it taught me so much about like, what's normal 'cause No one sits women down and says like, no,"here's what sex is like. Here's what's normal. Here's what's not normal. Like, frankly, everything is kind of normal." So and I think and I read this book and it was like, a revelation for me and I was 36 or 37 like, way too, and I've been reading romance novels since I was 11. My God, like, it's something revalatory about, like, lady bits? The fact that I got to it at 36 or 37? I went to Smith, we spent a lot of time talking about lady bits there! So anyway, I think a lot about that and I think a lot about the fact that like, romance has always for me been a place where like women's issues can be discussed without,
Jennifer Prokop 19:41
without fear or shame,
Sarah MacLean 19:42
Without fear, without shame and also with no shrouding, like there's no like, you know, you can go to the woman, the midwife, and she will give you a tincture and it will take care of the business.
Jennifer Prokop 19:55
I also have been reading romance since I was like, you know, a teen, a young teenager. And, but I went to Catholic schools and then I went to a Catholic... I went to Villanov.
Sarah MacLean 20:07
That is the opposite of Smith, I would guess.
Jennifer Prokop 20:10
Yes! In fact, I still have very vivid memories, and I don't remember her name. So you know, I can't name shame, but I remember meeting girls on my floor my freshman year of college, who, like literally didn't really even understand why they got a period,
Sarah MacLean 20:28
Jesus Christ.
Jennifer Prokop 20:29
And I just remember being like, what in fuck are you doing? What are we? And this was, you know, a long time ago, because I'm 45. And I think, I think a lot about like, abstinence only education.. and one of the things I think a lot about is, even though it is not the job of romance to teach sex ed, we are fooling ourselves if we don't understand that many, many readers are are learning about sex. Literally learning.
Sarah MacLean 21:03
Yes.
Jennifer Prokop 21:03
Through this genre.
Sarah MacLean 21:05
Yes.
Jennifer Prokop 21:05
And that is that's a responsibility. I think that we like you can
Sarah MacLean 21:10
Absolutely. You're 100%. Right. And I mean, that's not we didn't have a different, we don't, that's not different between us. I learned about sex from romance novels, without question. And I've told this story before, that I read Beatrice Small's "All the Sweet Tomorrows" when I was 14 and I was like, "Oh shit, I'm gonna get in trouble if my parents see that I'm reading this." You know, I had lactation porn. It was a ride!
Sarah MacLean 21:41
Yeah, you're 100% right. And I do think like, I think romance in those early days didn't shy away from---interestingly, yes, it had purple prose, and yes, there was a lot of euphemism, and what the hell is a throbbing member, and where did what go, and who's what --- But at the same time, you know Jane Feather's "Vixen," which actually was posted 1996, so it's much later than I would have expected. So Jane Feather's "Vixen," this is real old school ones you guys, the hero is just awful. He's awful. It's Guardian / ward. Um, and he's a real, the hero's real bad. But like if you're into like, really rough alphas who are impenetrable and ultimately end up loving their ward. It's you know, solid choice if that's your old school kink. But what's really interesting is so they have sex. He's drunk, he's like real drunk, and he comes home to his manor, and she's there. And he didn't he doesn't know who she is. She's just like, beautiful young woman in his house. And so, and he's super drunk and they have sex. And in the morning after, he's like, "Oh shit, like, what have I done?" And he makes her a tonic and brings it to her and says, and we'll put this image in show notes will put the quote in show notes.
Jennifer Prokop 23:12
It's an amazing thing. Honestly.
Sarah MacLean 23:14
It's astounding because, he basically says to her "Here. Drink this," He is not a good dude. And he's like, "drink this." And she's like, "why?" And he's like, "because it will take care of any unforeseen problems from last night." And she's like, "what problems?" And he's like, "You're an idiot." I think he calls her "a little fool." And he's like, "you could be pregnant." And she's like, "Oh my god, I didn't even think about that." And she takes the drink, and she knocks it back without hesitation, she's like, I don't want to be pregnant. Like, I'm taking this ... I'm taking herbal PlanB, like Jane Feather Regency PlanB. And It's awesome.
Jennifer Prokop 23:19
It's kind of a great scene.
Sarah MacLean 23:30
There are a lot of problems with this book. But right now, today, I read that scene and I sent a screenshot to Jen. And I was like, This is fucking great! And then she says, "Will it work?" And he says, "it'll work." And that's it. And it does work. She doesn't get pregnant. It works.
Jennifer Prokop 24:20
And, like, what I found fascinating about that scene is it does go against type in the sense that he's the one who knows about it, right?
Sarah MacLean 24:28
He's taught, interestingly enough, he is taught how to make this herbal concoction by his first lover.
Jennifer Prokop 24:37
Yeah, well, and what's really interesting, though, is what is though to type is, the sort of virginal young heroine, I mean, who goes to a man's bed for the first time having no fucking idea what's going to happen. And that's another thing I really vividly remember from like early romance, right? Especially historicals: was you know "it's your wedding night" and you know they get some stumbling half assed explanation, if that!, about what's gonna happen.
Sarah MacLean 25:10
you're gonna bleed and then you know Marlo and no good deed goes unpunished with like a gallon of pig's blood because how much show
Jennifer Prokop 25:18
idea no idea and I mean and I think I do remember being really fascinated by like by this, the stories about like, like women are sent like lambs to the slaughter. right? They have no idea what's going to happen and I just I find that fascinating still, right? Like how much I imprinted on this idea that women were there to teach each other because it was a woman-- It was her mother or her sister-- who told her and if she didn't have that, then she had to rely on the goodwill of this lover, her partner.
Sarah MacLean 25:57
I texted with Lisa Kleypas earlier today because I could only think, one of the only romance novels I could think of where where I can name contraception on the page is one of the Hathaway books, Amelia and Cam, at this point, have already been married and Amelia doesn't want to get pregnant. And so she's taking this like herbal tea, which is basically like, what she's drinking every day. Yeah, and it actually doesn't work in the book and she gets pregnant. And interestingly, I I think that's a real thing, too. Look, I mean, like, the actual pill now, with science, doesn't work 100% of the time, so like, these teas definitely didn't work all the time. I texted Lisa and I I sort of said like, "Do you, Am I missing something else? Have you written this and other books?" Because, you know, Lisa's always-- we've talked about this before about Lisa's like talismans--And Lisa is really like fascinated with the history of stuff and she'll get really interested in like the history of like land management and then suddenly that's like a huge piece of a book. So I asked her, and she actually reminded me, and I had forgotten this, that in "Devil in Winter," Evie asks about pregnancy and Sebastian says, "There are all these ways," like he sort of articulates a number of different ways that you can use contraception and he brings up the use of, Hang on-- I'm going to pull up I'm going to pull it up-- He brings up the use of, quote, "little charms," which were Lisa just said to me today, usually gold or silver or sometimes lead, and which yikes. But they were intra cervical, and sometimes even intrauterine devices that
Jennifer Prokop 27:46
like a pre IUD?
Sarah MacLean 27:48
yeah. [Dang] So the idea that these things are on that like Lisa Kleypas setting this on the page, Jane Feather setting this on the page, is a real dialogue in the 90s about how women, how this is women's work. Contraception is women's work! I mean, [yeah], yes, there is no male birth control pill and there's a reason for it. Right like, [sure]. First of all, you know, it unfortunately it is our work to make sure we don't get pregnant. People with uteruses are responsible with make sure it making sure that we don't get pregnant, which is problematic and in an immense way, but reality.
Jennifer Prokop 28:32
Yeah, well and it but it's also because thousands of years of patriarchy has made it so, right? Well, and I would think to like back in old historicals, like about French letters, right? Like I..
Sarah MacLean 28:46
the French letter!
Jennifer Prokop 28:47
How did I I mean, I totally had to like figure that out from context. There was no Wikipedia, there was no Urban Dictionary.
Sarah MacLean 28:54
And they all have like bows on them and like ribbons and you're like, "What the fuck is this?" And then what was amazing is like, I, I can't believe this is the first time we're ever going to talk about "Harlots" on this podcast because I am in love with "Harlots." The show on Hulu, which is set in a bordello in the 1700s. It's like bordello wars, but the set it's in the 1700s. It's amazing. It's super feminist it has a full female writing staff, a full female, female showrunner. Female directors, like the cast is something like 98% women, the speaking cast, like it's very intersectional, they are queer characters, there are characters of color. It's amazing. If you haven't watched "Harlots" you should. But it said a a bordello, and it's the first time I ever saw anybody, any historical anything, show a French letter the way French letters are, which is... hard. They're dried skin, and they have to be soaked in water to use them. I mean, like you guys, show notes are really going to be rich this week because we'll link, Jen and I will work on them together and we'll link to everything. But basically a French letter is it's just, it's like imagine a dried like sausage casing-- that's literally what it is, tied up sheep intestine. It's tied on one end with like, a string as tight as possible. But it can't be tied until it's softened. So you couldn't just grab a condom and go! You had to soak it for, I don't know how long, 45 minutes an hour I don't know. I don't know how long it takes, let's say an hour,
Jennifer Prokop 30:34
2020, 2021, whatever it takes.
Sarah MacLean 30:36
it's like that scene in The Princess Bride when they say, "don't go swimming for at least an hour!" So imagine Carol Kane as your friendly bordello owner but the you know, like, and that shit doesn't work either like tying up a sheep's intestine with a bit of string does not protect you from pregnancy. Which brings us back to you gotta figure out how to manage pregnancy.
Jennifer Prokop 31:06
You and I have been reading long enough that we watched the condom evolution happen in romance.
Sarah MacLean 31:12
So much.
Jennifer Prokop 31:13
You know, it's funny because part of me is like, I don't know, I don't know where I saw it, I don't know if these were conversations I overheard with people, this was pre-social media, But I remember when, like people started sort of saying, like, "you need to have your characters talk about safe sex. This has to be a conversation that happens before they get into bed." And I remember people being like, "oh, but it's gonna ruin the vibe" and yet-- Like, do you remember this? I mean, yeah, this all happened, right? There still people--
Sarah MacLean 31:47
--Not long ago, a pretty big author said, you know, publicly, "Let's just all agree that my characters are all clean and are having safe sex because I don't want to write condoms anymore." Which, look, fine, It's a it's a bit of like a, you know, I don't write contemporaries, but it's a bit of, I imagine, like, "oh, now we have to pause, pause now for a condom break." But like, some people do it really great, first of all. And second of all, it's just good sense, everyone!
Jennifer Prokop 32:17
One of the most interesting conversations I had on Twitter, though, was that gay men now can take PrEP, right, which is essentially instead of using condoms
Sarah MacLean 32:28
Yes, I've seen ads for these on this on TV.
Jennifer Prokop 32:32
One of the things that's like, really interesting is like that can be part of your, like, your Grindr profile or whatever, if you're on PrEP, and in order to keep on it, you have to be tested, I think every, like, every month or whatever, I will get these details right in show notes. And so, you know, one of the things is like in gay romance, that that like sort of conversation might be changing because it's essentially part of the, like part of the scene already. So it's really interesting to me how even the rules for like, like male / female romances might be different from gay romances or lesbian romances in terms of like that safe sex conversation because the way, essentially the ways we can protect ourselves from sexually transmitted diseases and from pregnancy are so different than they were when Jane feather was writing this historical, right, in 1996. [Right.] So and I just think that's really interesting that contraception the sort of putting on a condom is so normalized now I notice it if it's not there.
Sarah MacLean 33:35
In contemporaries, for sure. I mean, like, I've never, I've never written a condom, in a book.
Jennifer Prokop 33:41
No, of course.
Sarah MacLean 33:43
And I partially that's because of, you know, it's because of sheepskin, and soaking, and all that, but I mean, like, Elizabeth Hoyt has written condoms. Lisa uses has used like half a lemon, I want to say, or a brandy soaked sponge, so like there are certainly contraception becomes a part of it and then--
Jennifer Prokop 34:05
Pulling out, I think is one that happens in historicals.
Sarah MacLean 34:05
yeah, I've used pulling out a lot. [sure] and I just you know assume all my heroes are clean.. But the, but again, in contemporaries have to have to clear a different bar I think then historicals do. And that's because of reality, that's because we live in the same world as characters. I think it's really interesting, look we're doing a whole podcast about Kresley Cole, nobody does birth control like Kresley does, where literally Valkyries have to eat, you know demons have a seal, like they're just so there's so many ways that Kresley tackles contraception in like a important way
Jennifer Prokop 34:11
And fertility, right. Yeah, absolutely. Like it's really coded into the world, but in a way that often where women are in charge, versus women being like victimized by it.
Sarah MacLean 34:59
Well, and that's Classic Kresley, right?
Jennifer Prokop 35:02
on brand.
Sarah MacLean 35:03
Where do you want to go from here, Jen?
Jennifer Prokop 35:05
I mean, I want us to talk about miscarriages. And I want us to talk about abortion.
Sarah MacLean 35:09
Well, let's talk about abortion. Because so, I brought up early in the episode, but aside from those early drafts, yeah, you could just you could drink a thing, and it would magically wave away the problem. [Yeah.] We don't have that in contemporaries anymore. I mean, we've never had that in contemporaries. And again, it's because the bar is higher, right. You have to clear a higher bar when it comes to contraception. But we have a couple of problematic things that happen in contemporaries. And we have a couple of, and we have started really see an evolution. I think, like we have seen the normalization of condoms. And I want to say, I want to give a nod to the normalization of Plan B. [Yeah.] Do you want to talk about Plan B?
Jennifer Prokop 35:55
Yeah, I would love to talk about Plan B. So it's really interesting because in that list of 15 books, it wasn't like 15 books where an abortion happened. I think there were like a handful.
Sarah MacLean 36:04
Yeah, five or six.
Jennifer Prokop 36:06
Yeah. And then there was sort of another group where the heroines use Plan B. And one of them I read is by an author named, by an author, Melanie Greene, who I actually know from the Tournament of Books-- Hi, Melanie! And she's written a book called "Roll of a Lifetime." And I read it today. And it's really interesting because the heroine, Rachel, is a single, like a single mother, but they're divorced fathers in the picture, but he's real... he's a real jerk. He doesn't pay his child support on time, he doesn't always, you know, their daughter is two, he doesn't pick her up or drop her off on time, and Rachel is kind of financially stressed, but also, she you know, she's worried enough about him that she doesn't want him having her address, right? So she has like a very guarded relationship with him. And he has this big Greek American family and so there's like a lot of family obligations, and she ends up dating her ex's boss, this guy, Theo is that hero, but they get together and it's kind of like an just like an affair, like very casual and they have sex, like the first time and then a week or two later they're together again, and the condom breaks. And I will tell you, the scene is so matter of fact. And they're just it's just like this interlude they had an hour or two to be together, and he says to her, okay, you go pick up your daughter, Hannah, and you go put her to bed, and I will go to the pharmacy, and I'll pick up the emergency contraception, and then I'll meet you back at your house and you can take it. And it was... and she's like, "Great, sounds like a plan." And I love the detail. Like, you know, sometimes authors just get that one detail right? And here's what it is. He looked it up on his phone before going into the drugstore, because he wanted to know what it looked like.
Sarah MacLean 37:55
You want to get the right thing.
Jennifer Prokop 37:57
Yes!
Sarah MacLean 37:58
That's dreamy.
Jennifer Prokop 37:59
It was! He buys the name brand, and not the generic, because he really wants her to understand that he was taking this seriously. And then when he gets and then this part's actually kind of romantic. I mean, again like,
Sarah MacLean 38:12
Oh god, you're such a romance reader!
Jennifer Prokop 38:14
No wait! Listen to this! Listen to this! He says to her, "I want to stay. I want to stay overnight. I'm worried. I'm, you know, what if? You know it can be painful. You can have cramping, and your daughter's here." And she's like, "Okay, but I called my friend, so I don't want you to stay." And he's like, "okay." But he wanted to and I'm sorry, that's fucking romantic, everybody.
Sarah MacLean 38:38
No, it's perfect. Its nobility, heroic nobility, right? I've said 1000 times, that the hero's, in every romance novel the hero has to be a king. They don't have to be royal. They do have to be a king, and that's heroic nobility. And like, that is a perfect example. That guy's a king of Duane Reed! [yeah] That's a New York drugstore. The king of Walgreens.
Jennifer Prokop 38:59
Of CVS! Right, but here's my point like, yes, it's like a small moment in the book. And then that's it. It's not a big deal. They don't talk about it again
Sarah MacLean 39:06
No! Becasue really, it really shouldn't be. It's a pill that you took after you had sex. It's fine.
Jennifer Prokop 39:12
Yeah, it's fine. And the fact that it is coded as a romantic moment, to me, was really meaningful in this book, because what it's saying is, this is a decision, like we made together, right?
Sarah MacLean 39:26
Its partnership, [Yes.] Look. romance novels are about finding equal partnership, about standing shoulder to shoulder with somebody who you want to spend the rest of your life with, right? Happily ever after in a romance novel involves partnership. And we have seen over the years, a whole lot of books about partnership around pregnancy, partnership around babies-- like the secret baby trope is about noble men who quote, "do the right thing" and marry the girl. Right? And, and are our solid, sound partners in a relationship. And this is also really wonderful partnership. It's, "we're in this together, you are not wholly responsible for not getting pregnant, I'm responsible, too." And like that's real sexy.
Jennifer Prokop 40:24
It was! And you know what? I think it's it, and that's why, I think our conception of that first time you saw a condom-- and it felt fumbling and awkward and weird, right? no, because it's like us saying, it's the couple saying, "our safety is important. Your health and safety is important to me." And this is the same thing, right?
Sarah MacLean 40:46
I would really love, and I'm going to text, I'm going to text, I'm going to tweet at Bowling Green and see if the guy, the people there, know. But I would really love it, if you're a listener, and you can sort of think back to your old school experiences, I'd really love to know who started this condom thing. [Yeah.] Because they were not on the page in those early contemporaries.
Jennifer Prokop 41:10
No, they weren't, never.
Sarah MacLean 41:12
No! Who...
Jennifer Prokop 41:13
When did that happen? Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 41:14
Can somebody find a date? I would guess it has something to do with the AIDS epidemic.
Jennifer Prokop 41:20
Yeah, it must have, right.
Sarah MacLean 41:22
I mean, this is, this is me like super spitballing. But I would be very interested. I'm also going to ask Kelly Faircloth at Jezebel if she's done any research on this, because I feel like somebody out there knows where condoms came from in romance--
Jennifer Prokop 41:37
--when it started. Yeah--
Sarah MacLean 41:38
right? And maybe I'm wrong. Maybe they have been there since beginning. Maybe Mills and Boon has been using them forever.
Jennifer Prokop 41:45
I don't. I felt like there was a sea change, though. And I remember it happening, right? And I remember the conversations where people are like, "No way" and then it just happened. And I feel like this Melanie Greene book to me was the perfect example of how Plan B can be used the same way, right?
Sarah MacLean 42:01
Well, that Ruby Lang book. Yes. Which we recommended it on an on a another podcast here, but recently
Jennifer Prokop 42:10
When we did best friend's sibling, right?
Sarah MacLean 42:11
"Clean Breaks." The Heroine is an OBGYN and she, not only does she counsel a character on the page about abortion, the condom breaks. Ruby reminded us today that a condom breaks in that book. And the-- I'm just getting it, I'm just pulling it up-- and the hero basically says like, "I'll marry you." Everyone is like, "Um, no, thank you, first of all. Second of all, like I'm a professional human being. And also a fucking OB, and we're going to get some emergency contraception and it's going to be fine." Right? And, you know, Ruby's awesome and we love her. We stan her hard here.
Jennifer Prokop 42:58
I think the other side of the contraception question, though, is... because Jenny Holiday's whole "Bridesmaids Behaving Badly" series has women dealing with these issues in one way or another. So one of the friends has really severe endometriosis and her period is a plot point, right? Like and how, like how debilitating her pain is. And I've talked about one of those series, she then does get pregnant and has to like really consider: I never thought I'd be a mother. Is this what I want? But Wendy, who's another friend, takes Plan B. And then Jane, another one of them, is... they're going to be childless by choice. And you can only be childless by choice if you have contraception available to you! And so that is a series that aren't fully, for all of them, like weaves in the decisions that women are making-- about who and what they want their futures to be like. And then what, or not, and there's an-- I really like that there's no judgment or blaming. You know, Jane, not wanting kids is not really a thing that-- you know I'm spacing on her name, the one who was like "I would be I would desperately love kids but I have endometriosis"-- She's not mad that her friend doesn't want them. Right. Like it's just women with different choices and they all support each other. And I think that see that whole series is really committed, like Kresley, I think, to really talking about contraception in a, like, a really comprehensive way for different women at different points in their lives and what they want and different couples.
Sarah MacLean 44:39
Yeah, I mean, I think that there is, I think we-- but Jen, you and I've talked so much about the fact that these body issues, these kind of endometriosis, One of my very favorite romance novels of the last few years, is a really beautiful, erotic, friends to lovers romance called "Unconventional" by Isabel love. The heroine, So it's basically like "friends with benefits," like they know each other, they have mutual friends. They are each-- it's like they're the, they're the Marie and Jess in the "When Harry Met Sally" relationship here, they're like,
Jennifer Prokop 45:19
Oh, got it.
Sarah MacLean 45:19
Okay, um, they're like the Carrie Fisher and Bruno Kirby characters. So, and then they sort of meet through this couple, this middle couple. And they have this like beneficial relationship. She's divorced, because she had to have a hysterectomy when she was very young while she was married to another man. And he left her because he wanted to have children. And so she sort of has this sense of, well, there is no future. There's no long term relationship in my future because I can't have children, and like, that's part of a long term future. She has this relationship with with Charlie--that's the hero's name. And they have this like incredibly sexy relationship that involves exhibitionism and voyeurism. You'll love that part. And there's there are threesomes in it. And like, it's really an incredibly sexy relationship. And he starts to fall for her, and she's so panicked by shame. Like, she has such shame for this reality. I mean, like, this happens to women, and she doesn't, she's, she kind of protects herself and protects herrself from loving him because she's so afraid that he'll reject her. Because, you know, she feels in some way "less than" because she's had something happen to her. And he's ultimately, and he wants kids like he sort of is very open about the fact that he wants kids and she's just like, "I, you know, that's never going to happen, that's not going to happen." And then when it finally sort of, when it's when she reveals It, when she's like, "I love you, but I can't be with you because of this. I would never ask you to give up that dream to be with me." He's like, "I love you. Kids are separate from this. Kids don't-- you I love! kids are an imaginary thing."
Jennifer Prokop 47:16
Right? Right.
Sarah MacLean 47:17
And they have their happily ever after. And it's really beautifully done, because it's very honest. You know, we have all, I mean maybe we have not, I don't want to speak for every woman, but I feel like many, many, many, many women, myself included, have felt over time, sort of shame about things with our bodies that we can't control. [Yeah] and this book does that beautifully. And it feels very authentic and honest, and also super sexy.
Jennifer Prokop 47:50
Again, I used that like phrase earlier that sometimes your body betrays you, one. So I want to return to talking about abortion maybe at the end, because there's one book I think that's really interesting by Melonie Johnson. But I want to talk about miscarriage first because I do feel like, and you have written really one of my-- and I, you know I I'm not here to stan for Sarah MacLean all the time--
Sarah MacLean 48:15
--we don't stan for me that often--
Jennifer Prokop 48:18
But "Day of the Duchess" is probably one of my top three favorite romances ever.
Sarah MacLean 48:25
That's very kind.
Jennifer Prokop 48:27
And I think some, but miscarriage is something that romance does put on page. Abortion is something a little different; Miscarriage, it happens a lot. And I, and I actually wrote a whole piece once about it because I was just really curious...what is it that's happening on the page? And like not every miscarriage is sort of doing the same thing. It's mining different like emotional like depths. So I want you to talk about "Day the Duchess," but we can talk.. and I mentioned the Piper Huguley book,
Sarah MacLean 48:57
I should add, "Day of the Duchess" has stillbirth in it. I mean it's a [yeah], it is it's obviously, it's it's a type of miscarriage, but it's a lot. It's very intense. It does happen, it happens right at the very beginning of the book. I know that it, it has, I want, I just want to very strongly content warn this for anybody who who might have trouble with stillbirth as a plot. I mean, I, that book is very personal for me. I have not had a stillbirth. But I have had pregnancy issues. And I was working through some stuff. I wanted to write a book that was about women and the way that we relate to our bodies as failures. And that's because I was going through some stuff. I have had, I-I've had trouble with pregnancy. I've had I had trouble breastfeeding. I have felt a lot of shame about what my body can and cannot do. And I hate that. So many women, one in four women, one in four pregnancies, end in miscarriage and/or stillbirth. And the reality is that we are trained and conditioned to believe that that is a malfunction of our body. And the reality is, is that when 25% of something-- when 25% of times-- something happens, that's not a malfunction. It's just, it's just a thing that happens. And I hate that women are shamed by that. And I hate that it is so emotional and that it is so personal and that it is so private and that we keep it to ourselves and we struggle with so much anger and frustration. [Yeah], and I, that's all in this book. I mean, that's what this book is and yeah,
Jennifer Prokop 51:06
Well and I think the reader's experience is always really different. And one of the reasons that book moved me, right, is like not just because of the grovelling, but because of her journey and--
Sarah MacLean 51:19
You love a grovel.
Jennifer Prokop 51:20
I do love a grovel, but--
Sarah MacLean 51:21
--it is an epic grovel, I will admit.
Jennifer Prokop 51:23
Yeah, yeah, it is, but there's this part in particular where she's basically, she knows something is wrong. And you use, it's like I've called it a miscarriage, but you're, it's like really a stillbirth right?
Sarah MacLean 51:28
She's...very far along.
Jennifer Prokop 51:39
Yeah, she knows something is wrong. And to me, there's this, like the most chilling kind of scene in this book, and it is probably within the first 20 pages, maybe even earlier. She knocks on the door right there. They're separated. And the you know-- whoever answers the fucking door, the footman or whatever-- and she feels like she has to say that there's something wrong with the baby in order to get in the door. That's what I remember, right? And he's like, "there's someting wrong?" And she's like, "With the heir" essentially. And I remember thinking, not only is it this failure of her body, but it was this devastating moment where she knew that this baby was more important than she was in terms of how she was going to get the help she needed. And in that way, I guess, things have not really changed that significantly. But to me it was this, like, heart rending moment. And romance I know delivers those moments. But one of the things I've said to people about this book is: it's the rare romance that starts with the low moment, and it's the lowest of low moments, and then we have to see them recover. And I think it's brilliant and not just because you're sitting here, but
Sarah MacLean 52:59
Well, you're very kind. I mean, I do want to say one thing about that book because it's a-- you know that I struggled with it. Serafina, who is the main character of that book, she's the heroine of that book, believes she's barren. She's told after she loses the child by the doctor-- or the sort of male doctor who's been brought in as a voice of patriarchy-- that she'll never have children again. And so, and she, she has a very specific condition -- medically her stillbirth, her stillbirth is not coincidental. It's medical. It's a condition that actual real human females have. And she ends up believing that she is barren. And at the end, and I'm going to spoil the ending of this book. They have children. And they have them in the epilogue and they have more than one because my-- I realized that I couldn't write, I wanted to write a birth. I wanted to write a live birth. And I couldn't write the next live birth because it would be full of fear.
Jennifer Prokop 54:09
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Sarah MacLean 54:10
--and terror. So I had to, I had to give them more than one child in that in that epilogue, and I ended up giving them lots of children. But I have received letters-- and I know that there's a lot of discussion in romancelandia about this--the sort of magic child that comes at the end for a barren couple. And I went back and forth. And there are two versions of that epilogue, one where they have children and one where they do not. And we-- my editor and I-- went over it again and again and again. And I actually just pulled the trigger on the epilogue literally the last possible day before it went to print. And I gave them children instead of not giving them children, and I did it for lots of reasons. And I can tell you they were happy either way. And I probably did it for me more than for them. It was this-- "Day the Duchess" is an incredibly personal book for me for many, many reasons. And so for me, it was really important to me that, that experience happened on the page and that they have happily ever after with children. But I want to say that there is there was no reason why they couldn't have happily ever after without children.
Jennifer Prokop 55:34
And it's funny because I know people struggle with that, I don't, I never struggle with it in historicals because I feel like-- some quack told her she couldn't have kids again based on.. what? you know. Yeah. And whereas in a contemporary,I will say the, like, "all of a sudden I just got pregnant because I was with the right man" plot.
Sarah MacLean 55:56
Right. The magic, magic sperm.
Jennifer Prokop 55:57
Yeah, that part -- meh. You can stop that. It's 2019.
Sarah MacLean 56:02
I mean, the baby epilogue is-- it's a lie. It's something that we all sort of need to talk about because it is sort of heteronormative. And there's, you know, there's a lot about it that is, that needs to be unpacked. And I think it's a conversation that it's healthy for us to have as romance, as people who talk about romance. But I also acknowledge that I love a baby in an epilogue, so you know, but I also have a baby and I like baby, so whatever.
Jennifer Prokop 56:30
That's a personal problem.
Sarah MacLean 56:31
If you know-- if your choice is-- it's "your body, your choice", "your marriage, your choice", "your partnership, your choice." And that's all we're just trying to get at.
Jennifer Prokop 56:41
Yeah, there's a lot of books with miscarriages.
Jennifer Prokop 56:44
Yeah, we've talked about that.
Sarah MacLean 56:44
Yeah, I mean, I want to just shout out my favorite Julia Quinn novel, which is "The Secret Diaries of Miss Miranda Cheever." It may not be Miss Miranda Cheever, but "Secret Diaries of Miranda Cheever" there's a miscarriage in that book that is devastating. I honestly believe that is Julia Quinn's best book, it is emotional and intense. And the miscarriage is so important. But again, it's told through the lens of the heroine's experience. And I know you have thoughts about this.
Sarah MacLean 57:16
Women, if it's happening to your body, it's your experience, you own it.
Jennifer Prokop 57:20
Right? Yeah, I believe that I totally do. And I think it also makes sense to me that romance would like, I don't know, mine miscarriage is a possible topic. Because it is so personal and because so much of romance is about, about hope and about.. and so like exploring the ways in which women experience failure, but then bounce back and figure out who they are after that. I think that for many women-- and I also think you're right, like it's not so--it's very hard to talk about. But then in a book, it gives you a way to like have that experience, right? You're with you're this heroine becomes your friend who is going through this experience. And I think that that is something that, it's a way for us to sort of collectively share our miscarriage stories kind of with each other.
Sarah MacLean 58:16
Sure, you know, loss of a child is normalized in romance, and that's valuable. That's valuable for every woman, every one of that 24% or 25% of women, of pregnancies. What's interesting is that 25% of women before they turned -- before they turn 45, in the United States-- will have an abortion. And we have not normalized abortion.
Jennifer Prokop 58:42
No. No, we sure have not.
Sarah MacLean 58:44
--as a genre.
Jennifer Prokop 58:46
Here's the bad way we've normalized it.
Sarah MacLean 58:49
Uhhh, I hate this way.
Jennifer Prokop 58:50
I do, too. And I'm real fucking over it, which is the hero has been traumatized by bad ex who had an abortion that he didn't want her to have.
Sarah MacLean 59:04
Yeah, she either didn't tell him, and then she told him to stick it to him, Or she didn't tell him she was pregnant and then he found out.
Jennifer Prokop 59:11
Yeah, like, it's real bad.
Sarah MacLean 59:13
Fuck. That. Noise. Burn it with fire.
Jennifer Prokop 59:18
That plot really needs to die. And you know what? Those are plots actually to that have been around a really long time. In one way or another.
Sarah MacLean 59:26
I want to, I'm going to confess something, which is 20 years ago, when those plots were everywhere. I liked that, because I was like, oh-- that again!-- it sort of says, it's code, it's codifying like nobility of the hero, right? Like it's codifying maturity, readiness for commitment, willingness to partner, the ability to be a decent father, and like take responsibility. These are all valuable tools
Jennifer Prokop 59:57
Like some deep well of emotional feeling, too, right?
Sarah MacLean 1:00:00
Sure, sure. It was, it's humanity, It's a hero's humanity coded in there. I get it. It's great shorthand, but at the same time, like it's real problematic shorthand.
Jennifer Prokop 1:00:10
Not right now.
Jennifer Prokop 1:00:12
You know it, for me, it was like pre- and post- Smith College. Pre Smith College there was, "Oh, I love theseevil abortion storylines." And after Smith College, I was like, "No. Absolutely not. Abortion is for everyone."
Jennifer Prokop 1:00:26
And I think it also really, I mean, here's the other thing, though, it doesn't just code something for the hero, it codes something for the heroine, right? Which is that she is committed to mothering and family. It's a very patriarchal way of like making sure we understand that this is "a good one," right? That this heroine is going to be different or better-- and better!-- right, and all those things because she would never do that.
Sarah MacLean 1:00:51
She would never do that to him. That's nonsense. A lot of people have very ordinary abortions, in marriages that are otherwise happy.
Jennifer Prokop 1:01:01
A book I really recommend that it's not a romance, It's called "Scarlet A: The ethics, law, and politics of ordinary abortion." And this woman, I saw her at the Chicago Humanities Festival. And she was this fascinating speaker where she was like, "we have like these sort of like, myths, these sort of abortion stories we tell. And then when we talk to real women who've had abortions, and none of them are true." It It is a great, great book. But I remember we've talked about our love for like kind of category romances in the 80s, and one of a series I really loved was the series by Barbara Boswell where these brothers all married these sisters.
Sarah MacLean 1:01:39
Oh, I love it already.
Jennifer Prokop 1:01:41
I know the Ramseys and the Bradys-- and here's the thing, in one of them, and I really remember this, and in one of them, Erin is the heroine. And she has like kids already, she's-- of course she's still like, she's 24-- and her, you know, she got pregnant right after high school and got married, and now the Dad's out of the picture. And she gets with this new man, and she they're not using birth control because he thinks he's barren because, from his previous marriage, they weren't able to have kids. And of course, now-- all of a sudden-- Erin's pregnant and he says, "You've been cheating on me!" They run into his ex wife at the mall, and the ex wife is like, "I'm just so glad that this happened. You know, it wasn't that I was barren it was that basically like his sperm and my egg like bad body chemistry"-- some 80s bullshit-- but I remember, I vividly remember this plot and and how angry, like rightfully so, Erin was at this ex wife for like, not ever really being honest with the hero right? But it's also super problematic to imagine that somehow she had medical knowledge that he didn't. Right? it's also crazy and it's this right the bad ex, who either withheld Or aborted a child, or whatever is s ... I... it's an automatic like, first of all, I'm not reading your book anymore. And I'm probably not reading you anymore.
Sarah MacLean 1:03:10
Yeah, yeah. I mean, certainly, you know, somebody on Twitter, I sort of ranted a little bit about this on Twitter yesterday, and somebody on Twitter came forward and was like, "In the 90s, I wrote this book." And I was like, "In the 90s, it was a different time!" We all have to have room to grow, right? We have room. We, I talk all the time about the fact that I've been writing for 10 years, what I wrote in 2009 is not representative necessarily, of what I write now in 2019, and like, that's just life. We have to have room to grow.
Jennifer Prokop 1:03:43
Sure. And that's romance. And that romance, right?
Sarah MacLean 1:03:46
We're moving too quickly. we're iterating on society, the whole time. That's fine. What I want is for us to as writers, as responsible citizens of the genre, for us to just try and do better. That's all we can ask for is that everybody try and do better. Can I just have a fun moment? It hasn't been a lot of fun moments, but I want to give a shout out to the only vasectomy I can think of, Jennifer. Which I had not actually thought about until you told that crazy story about the brothers marrying the sisters and the like, how he thought he was barren. And then he thought she was cheating on him. And that he--
Jennifer Prokop 1:04:24
The 80s! They also owned a mall, so it's all bad.
Sarah MacLean 1:04:28
Sure. Of course they did. Yeah.
Jennifer Prokop 1:04:30
The Ramsey Park. Well, the what their last name is Ramsey, the Ramsey Park Mall.
Sarah MacLean 1:04:36
Oh my god. What?
Jennifer Prokop 1:04:37
I actually bought these books on Amazon because I like right. I was like, I gotta have--
Sarah MacLean 1:04:41
Sure. Seminal texts. So... speaking of seminal texts,
Jennifer Prokop 1:04:48
I was like "ha ha." All right, I love you so much right now.
Sarah MacLean 1:04:53
Air high five. So okay, Jude Devereaux, who everyone knows is like my seminal text, "The Black Lyon," at the beginning of my time in romance, Jude Devereaux wrote a family saga, every book, like every book she ever has ever written has been a Montgomery book. And they have this like intense Montgomery, this Montgomery family tree, and the Montgomerys have a lot of twins. A lot. A lot. You're making a funny face.
Jennifer Prokop 1:05:22
Yeah, no, I'm just curious about like, tell me more. Where's this all going?
Sarah MacLean 1:05:25
FYI everybody, Jen and I have a twin interstitial coming. So, I'm not going to give you too much information about the Montgomery twins because I'm sure we'll talk about the full twin experience then, but this is a good one. So at some point, so "Sweet liar" is this contemporary, like wacky kind of time travel-y? ghosty? like St. Valentine's Day Massacre, Chicago period? Like weird... there's a lot packed into this book "Sweet Liar" Hero's name is Michael. I don't remember the heroines name because it doesn't matter. Michael is a twin. And he's like, he has a lot-- There's a lot-- Michael is pretty dreamy and weird and kind of amazing. But there's this legend in the Montgomery family of one of the cousin's got, he's... here... They're so virile, all the men, all the men in the Montgomery family. Virility is also a big piece of romances of a time, right? And they're so virile, and one of the men had a vasectomy, because his wife is like, "I've had too many of your fucking babies. Like, we're not doing this anymore. You're getting a vasectomy." And so he went off and he got a vasectory and he came back and then they had sex, and she got pregnant, and he was convinced she had cheated on him. And she was like, "Fuck you. I'm getting a paternity test for this baby," which she did. And she was like, "see it is your baby, you're just too virile for vasectomy."
Jennifer Prokop 1:06:42
I am dead over here.
Sarah MacLean 1:07:16
If I remember correctly, he buys her like a Porsche and like a 10 carat diamond ring to apologize--
Jennifer Prokop 1:07:24
for basically having super Montgomery sperm--
Sarah MacLean 1:07:26
For basically having crazy Jude Deveraux sperm.
Jennifer Prokop 1:07:31
Oh, guys, that's some good stuff right there, that really is.
Sarah MacLean 1:07:35
You know what, that's the perfect example of like, some crazy shit and romance novel, that definitely coded some real problematic, like virility issues into my life. However, I really love that a vasectory was on the page. And I love that the heroine was like, "fuck you were getting a paternity test." Like, it was great. This isn't actually the heroine of that book, but whatever it's referenced. It's a story that's referenced in there. I like that the vasectory was just codified like, this is a thing that happens even though in this particular case it didn't work because he has super sperm.
Jennifer Prokop 1:08:07
Well, I mean, Hello Sarah.
Sarah MacLean 1:08:09
But obviously, he's a Montgomery, so stay tuned for our twin episode and more Montgomery shenanigans. Um, what else?
Jennifer Prokop 1:08:17
I want to end this episode by talking about this Melonie Johnson book. So I don't know if we're ready for it yet.
Sarah MacLean 1:08:22
Let's do it. Because we're,
Jennifer Prokop 1:08:24
yeah, we're like, we're over an hour, everyone's like, "Oh my god, stop being so angry!" "No, never." Um, here's the thing. One of the things that was really interesting is when you asked on Twitter about abortion books, like there really were a handful, right? So there's a book by Jenny Trout, one of the Tiffany Reisz-- Nora, I guess in one of the Original Sinners books. But I want to talk about this book by Melonie Johnson called "Once upon a Bad Boy," and it doesn't actually come out until June 25, So I don't want to spoil it entirely. But this is one of the few books-- like among a very small list of books-- we could have where like a heroine has an abortion. And, and in this case, it was something that the heroine and hero were like teenage, dating, dated as teenagers. They broke up, it was very sudden. He broke up with her. And then we get, it's 10-11 years later. So now, you know, they're almost 30, and one of the things that's really fascinating about this book, in terms of-- that the exploration of her journey, like the the abortion, is she does not have any regrets at all. About, I mean, she has moments of like, what-if-ism, right? What if, what if I would have made a different choice? She doesn't have any regrets. She doesn't feel any guilt. She doesn't feel like she did anything wrong. But what she has done is kept it a secret for 10 years because women in our society just don't talk about their abortions. And so that the pressure of keeping that all inside is something that has really-- like right, it's it's not the "what she did" that's the problem. It's the pressure to keep it a secret. And this is something that only her grandmother knows. I don't want to spoil the book, or like necessarily talk too much about why it happened. I was, I will be honest, I was really on the fence with it. I'm kind of ready for the heroine who is like, "Fuck yeah, I had abortion" and we just all0. move on. Right. It as matter of fact as taking Plan B but--
Sarah MacLean 1:10:31
--yeah, but is that really authentic?
Jennifer Prokop 1:10:33
Well, I think.. we certainly.. Well, according to "The Scarlet A" book, It is.
Sarah MacLean 1:10:37
No, no, I don't mean that. I mean, I mean, is it authentic for us to just sort of, for many of us to step forward and say--
Jennifer Prokop 1:10:44
Yes, I like Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 1:10:46
"Fuck yeah, I had an abortion." I mean, right. This is the problem, right? Like, we keep, we've spent the entire episode talking about how we keep our bodies secret.
Jennifer Prokop 1:10:57
Yes,
Sarah MacLean 1:10:57
Like we protect, and it's not It's, I mean, in part, its protection, right? Nobody wants--I spent the last two days like, you know, fighting people on the internet. Not everybody has the bandwidth or the desire to do that work. But the truth is, as long as this is, as long as our bodies, as long as the uterus is politicized, speaking up like that is a risk. And it's a risk that we should not expect any woman to have to take like,
Jennifer Prokop 1:11:33
absolutely.
Sarah MacLean 1:11:34
It's a risk that if you are willing to take it-- Jen and I are here for you! like we, I will, I Sarah, will fight you-- will fight for you. I will fight alongside
Jennifer Prokop 1:11:43
But we shouldn't insist that people have to--
Sarah MacLean 1:11:46
Yeah, and I think like there is a certain sense like look, it takes a lot to get past, codified, ingrained shame. And that is not to say that anybody should feel shame about an abortion. And that is to say that like many, many people in society expect you to. And that's, and like the way patriarchy sucks.
Jennifer Prokop 1:12:07
Well, and, you know, a really powerful piece I saw on Jezebel today was sort of like, okay, so for the past two days, everyone, you know, lots of people--women-- are getting out there and sharing their abortion stories, but we're not changing hearts and minds, the people who are closed to this, the people who, you know, think that it's, you know, who are pro-forced birth. Those people don't care about our stories. And I ended up finding, therefore, Sadie is the heroine of this Melanie Johnson book, I therefore-At first I was sort of like, I want you to feel less conflicted. But as the book went on, I ended up really feeling like it was an honest portrayal of, like, sort of--we all have regrets, right. And regret was, you know, it was a man she loved, it was a relationship that ended suddenly, it was, you know, now someone who's back in her life, it's a secret she kept from her best friend. It's, you know, and I, and I really found that journey to her acceptance of-- not the decision she made, she never regrets that decision-- but like the need to hide it. And that felt, I will be honest with you. I have never read anything like it in romance before.
Sarah MacLean 1:13:31
Well, that is a high praise. No matter, no matter what this book is like, that's, I want to read thing-- that we we owe it to women to tell every possible story. We owe it to all people, to all marginalized people to tell every possible story of happiness. And that is, that's our work as writers--as a genre.
Jennifer Prokop 1:13:53
Well, and I think one of the things I kept thinking about, was we talk a lot about representation matters, right? Like it is really vitally important that if you that we're not sort of saying like, okay, I read this romance with a black character, now I've read romance with black characters. No, you haven't! You read one! And part of the problem with there being so few stories in romance where women have abortions is then we hang our entire like hopes, dreams and needs for that book, that story inromance, on this one book.
Sarah MacLean 1:14:29
Right.
Jennifer Prokop 1:14:29
Right. Are these three books? And that is why we need more of them.
Sarah MacLean 1:14:34
We need more. I mean, the fact that.. Jen is right. I mean, I said 15 books the beginning there, there are maybe 15 books on that list. Many of them are Plan B. Some of them have no abortion at all, but have a doctor in them. So if we're talking about fewer fewer than 10, less than 10 books on this list, hive minded from our romance Twitter people, and old school romance, the book club that I host on Facebook-- Which you can join, If you'd like to--
Sarah MacLean 1:15:02
Yeah, we'll put it in show notes. I'm like, "That's an incredible hivemind." And if we can only come up with this number, like there aren't that many more, there really just aren't, I'm sure of it. I mean, every, if again, we go back to one quarter of all American women under the age of 45 have had an abortion. And there are--that is millions of stories!-- and we're not, and what is happening? I mean, it just takes us back to that original question, which is: why in this genre that has made, carved out, such important domestic space-- and I say domestic as, like female centered, like women's centered space; as a genre, as a matter of course, centering the female gaze and female identity and female politics, or women's politics, I should say-- how have we never, how have we not come to a place where there are at least, you know, 250 we can point to?
Jennifer Prokop 1:15:02
we'll put it in show notes.
Jennifer Prokop 1:16:12
Exactly! I mean, and that's the part where when you see how small the sample size is and you know, this Melanie Johnson book-- I'm about where you're going to hear about it next week-- it's going to be available a month later and we will signal boost it, you know, to high heaven once it actually comes out-- because I do think that I found Sadie's journey as like an individual character, and her moments of sadness, and her her sense that she couldn't... I mean, I found it all very moving and I thought, you know what, we deserve to see a woman who was, "Yeah, I kind of have some regrets and sometimes I wish 'What if' and I still know I did the right thing, and it was still my decision to make."
Sarah MacLean 1:16:56
Well, because bodies are nuanced!
Jennifer Prokop 1:16:58
Feelings are complicated!
Sarah MacLean 1:17:00
It is not an easy discussion, which is clear in the in the world. And it's why Jen and I rage so hard when anybody comes at this with a black and white answer. This is a hard conversation to have. And all I think I'm saying is: I stand with women being able to make their own choices about their own bodies. And that's really all.
Jennifer Prokop 1:17:24
That's it. Right? Well, and I think that that's why we don't, we started out talking about trans men and trans women and and sort of bodies and who we are but-- if you believe in bodily autonomy for women, then I think you have to believe in bodily autonomy for everybody. And I think you have to look at people and say, "I want you to be who you are in the world. And I want the world to accept you and that journey for what it is and if romance cannot be there for that in every way, then romance is not doing what it needs to do to support the people who need it the most."
Sarah MacLean 1:18:07
Right? If it's the genre of hope, and happiness, it has to be the genre of hope and happiness for all of us.
Jennifer Prokop 1:18:17
Yeah, no exceptions. No exceptions.
Sarah MacLean 1:18:21
No.
Jennifer Prokop 1:18:22
Except Nazis. Except Nazis.
Jennifer Prokop 1:18:26
But I mean, and that's the part where I find this conversation and these books, you know, and I know we talked about like a probably 50 different books today. And we didn't even talk about all the books that we could have. But I mean, I think we were really interested in exploring what is it that romance is doing really well? Romance is talking about miscarriage. It's talking about grieving and loss. You know, romance is talking about condoms and safe sex. Romance is talking about preventing pregnancy. But it's not really talking at all about abortion. And this is about to be a right that many of us are not going have access to anymore. And that fear is something I would like to see romance normalizing for ourselves as women and for readers. And I get I'm not a writer, right? I don't have to make a living off my book selling and putting my kid through college. You know, I know those risks are out there. But I hope that we all get behind Melonie Johnson's book and prove that there is a market for like nuanced stories about women who make hard decisions for themselves, or easy decisions for themselves, but they make those decisions for themselves.
Sarah MacLean 1:18:35
Except Nazis.
Sarah MacLean 1:18:54
People deserve to have body autonomy. period. Tthat said, what I do want to add is that we are, I think, and this is me sort of looking into my romance crystal ball, I think this week could be, this could have started a sea change among writers thinking about the fact that we don't-- we limit, we create space to talk about bodies, our bodies and how they work. And like you said, we create space to talk about sorrow and shame around the way our bodies work. But we don't we have limit, we have stopped, we've come to a stopping point when we get to this piece of the puzzle. And I think a lot, a lot of romance novelists, I mean, just in the last two days, I've heard from so many writers who acknowledged that they've never tackled it, but they want to. And so I would like to think that a year from now we're going to start seeing in books a little more. I don't think we're ever going to see it every book, like I don't think we're-- and that's not what I'm asking for--But I think we're going to see more and more and more of these stories on the page. And that's all we're asking for. We're just asking for us all to just think a little more carefully about representing that choice that a lot of us have made. And, and I mean a lot! I just, I gave an interview about this today and I just feel like I said at some point, you know, everyone, everyone knows a woman who has who has done this, everyone has interacted with a person who has done this, you may not know, and nobody is asking anyone to risk like I said earlier--
Jennifer Prokop 1:21:28
--if it's not safe for you to share that story, either emotionally or physically or for whatever reason, like I like, no one's gonna push anybody into the limelight. But romance then is a way-- like miscarriage-- where we can share our stories and, there's truth in fiction. I say that to my students all the time.
Sarah MacLean 1:21:49
Romance is a private space. It is private space for people who read romance and it's and it's so far removed from like the prying eyes of the world, the rest of the world. If we can't have this conversation here in our private space, where can we have this conversation safely? And look, the reality is that readers-- there are going to be readers who don't like it. And so it's going to take risk, and it's going to take bravery. And I really am looking forward to the, to the books that come from it.
Jennifer Prokop 1:22:24
Yeah. Well, and you know what? I think your crystal ball is right on because when I think about the books that I talked about tonight, like specifically, right, Jenny Holiday's books, that whole series, the Melanie Green Book, the Melonie Johnson book, these are books that are all 2018 or later.
Sarah MacLean 1:22:41
Yeah, Ruby Lang.
Jennifer Prokop 1:22:42
Right. Ruby Lang. I mean, so we are already we are talking about old books within a lot of the books that we are like talking about right now are RIGHT NOW. So we, these are really the women who are putting these things on the page. They're the forerunners. And if we support these books and buy these books and show that there's a market for these stories, then we work-- we will get more of them. I know that there are books that we missed we tried to cast the widest possible net.
Sarah MacLean 1:23:11
Well, we've only had 48 hours, so we're going to, I'm committed to reading all those books on the list. And so you know, follow me on twitter, follow the Fated Mates Twitter account, and I'll tweet about the ones that are great and hopefully we'll get more. If you have a book, listeners, if you have read a book where there's an abortion on the page, please please rec us you know, good good abortion rep, we want that. Tell us about books that have meant something to you, as representing kind of body autonomy and and the body politic. We're interested in that. Jen and I especially are interested in how, how fertility and contraception and all of that lives on the page. If you can point to an early use of a condom in a contemporary, we want to hear all about it.
Jennifer Prokop 1:24:16
definitely want to hear all about that.
Sarah MacLean 1:24:18
I'm gonna do some research. And you know, again, follow Fated Mates on Twitter, follow me on Twitter, follow us on Instagram, we'll put everything there.
Jennifer Prokop 1:24:24
I mean, I think that's it, we are, it's a call to action, right? Because we know that when you change people's worldview and their empathy and the way they think about the choices we get to make and to have that we change the world. The urgency of this isn't just like, because we want you to have better books to read. It's because when we change the way we think about what our possibilities are, we change our futures.
Sarah MacLean 1:24:53
Well, that's a good place to stop. I think.You're listening to Fated Mates, Everybody. Follow us on Twitter @fatemates follow us on Instagram @fatedmatespod. Go over to our website, fatedmates.net and check out the show notes on your apps or over on fatedmates.net. You can leave comments there. You can talk to us any time. Leave us reviews, all that good stuff. Next week we are back with "Dark skye." Another another broken demon man. He's a demon, right? I mean, a winged demon.
Jennifer Prokop 1:25:35
And I think it's going to be very relevant and interesting conversation. Yeah, to this one that we well. Kresley always is, but I think this book in particular, is really landing at a time where I think it's gonna be really interesting. So, go out and do something you want to do with your body today.
Sarah MacLean 1:25:52
Have a good night.
S02.23: Waking Up with the Duke: Lorraine Heath Breaks A Lot of Romance Rules
This week, it’s one of Sarah’s favorites, and by an author Jen has never read! Lorraine Heath is a master of the historical, and this one is near-perfect. It’s complex and nuanced and it has an infidelity plot and THERE IS SO MUCH ANGST!
We love having you with us! — subscribe on your favorite podcasting platform and like/review the podcast if you’re so inclined!
In two weeks, we’re reading the Queen of Dirty Talk! Sarah and Jen both love Tessa Bailey — so we’ll be talking about our two favorites of her books, Asking for Trouble (Sarah’s) and Protecting What’s His (Jen’s). Find them at: Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, or Kobo.
Show Notes
Turns out Sarah and Jen aren't the only people who think these Apple keyboards are trash--after winning a 2020 Oscar for Best Adapted Screenplay, Taika Waititi had quite a bit to say on the subject.
Tom Beer is one of Jen's editors at Kirkus, and you should follow him on Twitter.
You can read The Smith College Sophian on line, and we'll link to the interview with Sarah onces it goes live.
We have Leslie Knope from Parks & Recreation to thank for the glory that is Galentine's Day. Read Jen's column about some books that celebrate women's friendship.
A few years ago during #RomBkLove, Shantastic/@bardsong wrote a great piece about disability in romance. You can also check out the blog, Sense and Disability by @Callalily.
Kate Reading is an amazing audiobook narrator, she's the one who narrates Lord of Scoundrels.
Fridging is a word from comics that is when women characters are killed to motivate a male character, but can be used to describe any time a less powerful or privileged character is used as a plot device. Flat Stanley is a character in children's books, but flat characters you might remember from English class.
Harry and Meghan are still taking money from the Duchy of Cornwall.
Jen said she was going to go back and read the other books in the trilogy, and they are bundled together on Amazon for $10.
The Bechdel Test is a pretty simple way of judging how inclusive movies are of women characters; it's limited but powerful. Jen wrote about external and internal conflict in romance, but we also talked about it on the Priest episode -- and we are always unpacking the way conflict works in romance.
Dialogue tags get a bad rap, famously Elmore Leonard claimed that writers should only use "said" and "asked." In this part of the discussion, Sarah mentioned her friend Barry Lyga, a YA author.
Jen thinks these three are codependent.
Cheating is the third rail of romance. It is. There are some lists on Goodreads of romances that have cheating, but it's complicated and difficult. One Jen read recently was I Want You Back by Lorelei James, but the cheating happened in the past. If you're interested in reading another book about someone who discovers the other family, Jen recommends Silver Sparrow by Tayari Jones.
Next time, we'll be reading Tessa Bailey, The Queen of Dirty Talk. Sarah's choice is Asking for Trouble, and a secondary text is the first one of that same series, Protecting What's His.
Buy stickers and buttons from Kelly and t-shirts from Jordan.
We are experimenting with some voice to text transcripts, so here's the first one for this episode.
S02.20: Managed by Kristen Callihan: Scottie!!!
Scottie!!!!!!! It’s Managed week here at Fated Mates — this is one of Jen’s favorite romances, and we’re talking about it and the next book in Kristen Callihan’s VIP series, Fall. We’re revisiting the rockstar romance and the found family trope, talking about the slow burn, and Jen’s talking about first person present tense narration and not yelling…so it’s a banner episode!
Don’t miss a single moment of our 2020 episodes — subscribe on your favorite podcasting platform and like/review the podcast if you’re so inclined!
In two weeks, we’re reading one of Sarah’s picks, Lorraine Heath’s Waking Up With the Duke, which was a tough choice because Lorraine is amazing and Sarah wants you to read all of her books. Read Waking Up With the Duke at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, or Kobo.
Show Notes
Jen's disappointed with the iHeartRadio Podscast awards. It's an honor just to be nominated, and that didn't even happen! For your consideration: Best Pop Culture Podcast and Best Fiction Podcast! Come on! Literary Disco wasn't even nominated!
Everyone loved The Pegging episode! Jen found this really interesting article too late for those show notes, but why not drop them here? We don't really think that we jumped the shark. Oh, and any chance to drop the "smashing from the back" rap.
The 20 minutes Eric cut were about RWA. So just read Jen's article for Kirkus instead. Just kidding. We don't really need D & O insurance. Do we? Either way, Eric should stop harshing our dream mellow.
Our Kristen Callihan origin stories: Sarah recommends Evernight in the Darkest London series, but Jen can't help but think of Tony Stark. Jen wrote about Kristen's book The Hook Up in the Who Did it Better in the Library post.
Slumpbusters from this week: The Player and Sweet Ruin for Sarah, and two Sophie Jordan books, While the Duke was Sleeping and The Scandal of it All, for Jen. And the shipbuilder book by Holley Trent is called Lowdown Dirty.
If you're trying to find the sex scenes in books, Jenny Nordbak from the Wicked Wallflowers Podcast has the sure-fire keyword search word: thrust.
The kind of super fancy first class where the seats turn into beds looks pretty great. Recently, we saw this happen in the movie Crazy Rich Asians.
Unbuttoning a glove is a huge romantic moment in Lord of Scoundrels and The Age of Innocence.
In case you have to travel with a rock band on a bus, the internet provides useful tips, of course! Jen loves this famous tour bus scene from the movie Almost Famous. Also, read Daisy Jones and the Six, which uses interview format to tell the story of the rise and fall of a 70s rock band.
Our Rock Star Romance interstitial was our very first interstitial. It's 20 minutes long, and you can listen to it here.
Revision is everything, but it is also very hard.
Interested in more slow burn romances? Goodreads has you covered.
Kerrelyn Sparks is the one who told Sarah romance is like a football game.
If you're worried you have an STI like Chlamydia, please see a doctor. Also, if you have kids, make sure they get the HPV vaccination.
Being a professional friend is a real job.
More about the A in the LGBTQIA+ spectrum.
If you're ever in Chicago, you should go to the dining room of the Chicago Athletic Association, check out the trophies, and play some bocce ball.
Looking to hang out with us in April? We'll be at KissCon and Spring Fling.
Buy buttons and stickers from Kelly and t-shirts from Jordan.
Next up, Waking Up With the Duke by Lorraine Heath, a book that blooded Sarah.
other books we mentioned
S02.18: Born in Ice: The One Where the Hero Smokes
It’s Nora Roberts week at Fated Mates, and we’re reading one of young Jen’s favorite books, Born in Ice, the second in the Born In trilogy, set in Ireland. This week, we’re talking why Nora Roberts is romance royalty, writing writers, the way contemporary romances age, and how weird it is when you read that a hero smokes. Oh, and of course, we’re talking about what the hell is happening in romance right now.
Don’t miss a single moment of our 2020 episodes — subscribe on your favorite podcasting platform and like/review the podcast if you’re so inclined!
In two weeks, we’ve got another of Jen’s pics, Kristen Callihan’s Managed, which you may recognize as “SCOTTIE,” which is how Jen refers to it because she loves him so much. We think you’ll love it, too, and if you have time, read the next in the series, Fall, which is one of Sarah’s top 10 romances ever. Read Managed at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, or Kobo.
Show Notes
Who knows what the RWA situation is when you read this, but as of this podcast, the absolute best source is Claire Ryan's blog post outlining the timeline of events. There was lots of national news coverage, but the "come on girls" comment was on NPR.
The 2019 RITA ceremony was amazing, and one that celebrated the history of romance. In between when we recorded this episode and when it was released, RWA cancelled the 2020 RITA awards. When Sarah said "it was a check the organization couldn't cash" she's alluding to a less well-known section of Martin Luther King's "I Have a Dream" speech.
"La Nora" is how many people refer to Nora Roberts. Sarah mentions some of her earliest category romances, including Gabriel's Angel, an early Nora from the Silhouette Intimate Moments line. She's also read Naked In Death (Jen hasn't), but Jen loved The Brides quartet, which was probably the last Nora Roberts series she read.
Sarah said she feels like readers should at least have read ten percent of an author's backlist for full romance competency. Should the "Ten Percent Rule" be a plank of the official Fated Mates Romance Reader platform? Discuss.
When we talk about Nora Roberts, we used a lot of superhero language: her origin story; her vanquishing of a villanous and duplicitous plaigiarist--twice!; owning her own town; her complete dominance of the bestseller lists. None of it is hyperbole. It's possible she actually is a superhero.
Lots of authors made statements about the RWA situaton. Here is Nora's, and then JR Ward's.
Virginity in romance has come a long way. PS. Virginity is a construct.
Somewhere in the 43 minute mark, Jen says "ope," which is the most Midwestern of sayings. If the twitter account Midwest vs. Everybody doesn't make you laugh so hard you wheeze, you're probably part of the everybody.
Jen isn't the only one who thinks smoking is a short cut for villainy. She thinks The X-Files is to blame. Also, PSA: vaping is really bad for you, too.
Birth control in romance has changed so much, listen to our episode on bodily autonomy for more discussion of this topic.
What does it mean to do something in a fugue state?
Sarah's big thread about why authors shouldn't be afraid of the problematic content in their old romances.
If you're interested in a big interesting book about The Troubles, Jen recommends Say Nothing by Patrick Radden Keefe.
What's a moor anyways?
So you wanted to know what it was like to fly the Concorde?
Buying a car? Sounds like that other Grey. Too bad this Gray was a Confederate apologist. Saying the Civil War was about "a way of life" instead of slavery is a classic Lost Cause myth. As Courtney Milan says, the devil doesn't need your advocacy.
Buy buttons and stickers from Kelly, tshirt and swag from Jordan, particpate in a 2020 reading challengewith Jen and Sarah, and fill out this survey for Eric.
In two weeks, we'll be discussed Managed and Fall by Kristen Callihan. If you have to pick one, make it Managed. As of this episode airing, Jen has tweeted just the word Scottie with a swooning gif at least 11 times.
Our listener call in book was Star King by Susan Grant.
S02.14: Indigo: Ride the Beverly Jenkins Train
Get ready for Hester, one of Sarah’s favorite heroines of all time — and Beverly Jenkins’s Indigo, which Jen just read for the first time! We’re talking historical romance, the way romances feel important, sex and intimacy, and all the reasons why everyone should read Beverly Jenkins right now.
Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, please leave us a like or a review!
Next week, it’s the second half of our book recommendation, stump Sarah & Jen AMA. The following week we’ll release a tiny little stocking stuffer for our Christmas Day episode, but we’re back in business on January 1, with the seasonally appropriate (at least in title) Born in Ice, by none other than the queen herself, Nora Roberts. Read Born in Ice at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo or your local indie.
Show Notes
Jen now has critic crushes on Diego Baez and Walton Muyumba. Liz Taylor who is kind of a big deal in the book world wrote an amazing book about Chicago's first Mayor Daley called American Pharaoh.
Thanks to the Lincoln RI public library for being awesome.
There's actually a lot of great resources for how to teach slavery to kids, so do better white teachers.
Here at Fated Mates, we are LaQuette stans. Listen to her talk about discomfort and how important it is in her RITA speech last year.
Colson Whitehead's Underground Railroad is an absolute tour de force. Here is a cool site mapping the world of the novel.
If you don't know about America's history of lynching, you should learn all about Bryan Stevenson, who spearheaded the effort to create a Lynching Museum. The site Without Sanctuary preserves the history of these postcards (Content warning on that site for obvious reasons.)
Gone with the Wind is an example of the pervasive and terrible "happy slave" narrative, which appears over and over again. Know and reject this narrative, not just in adult books, but in those written for kids. And while I'm on the subject, that goes for picture books about monkeys, too.
This amazing One Dot One Person map is a stark look at how the legacy of slavery and segregation still impacts where Americans live today.
So you want to read all the books about the LeVeq clan? Start with Through the Storm. and although Sarah said "kids" she meant that Hester and Galen's descendents are the main characters in the Edge of Midnight series. One of our favorite romance people is When Fumni Met Romance, and you should definitley read her talking about her love for Indigo and Beverly Jenkins.
The internet makes it so much easier to read the stories of enslaved people. Along with the rather amazing (but imperfect) WPA interviews, you can read any number of slave narratives. Remember it was illegal to teach slaves to read, so it's an especailly powerful experience to read slave narratives. If you've never read Frederick Douglass, you should, but Jen also recommends Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl by Harriet Jacobs.
If you are looking for more resources to learn about American slavery, the New York times 1619 Project is amazing. If you are a listener, Jen recommends you listen the Yale open course about The Civil War with professor David Blight.
Jen liked an early 80s novel called The Chaneysville Incident, which is about a historian trying to discover the truth about how his family's past intersects with a local legend about the Underground Railroad. Here's a recent interview with author David Bradley when the book was converted to an eBook.
The history of the Underground Railroad is part legend, part myth, and part fact. This site talks specifically about the route people fleeing took north through Michigan on the way to Canada.
Night Song was the first novel by Beverly Jenkins.
All about the Fugitive Slave Act, why it was so terrible, and how we are seeing echoes of it today.
Some interesting sites that talk about indigo cultivation and the role of enslaved people in making the dye. A 2013 book called Red, White, and Black Make Blue discusses the relationship of slavery and indigo production in South Carolina.
A thread from Adriana Herrera about why historical romance must grapple with how problematic white women upheld slavery.
Colorism is an issue that Beverly Jenkins weaves into Indigo.
Looking for more romances with carriage sex? Of course you are.
The Blessings series is a contemporary series by Beverly Jenkins that takes place in the town of Henry Adams, KS.
The Biblical story of Daniel and the Lion's Den is why Galen's nickname is The Black Daniel.
Sex euphamisms, anyone?
Robert E. Lee was pretty terrible.
Jen's favorite novel by Beverly Jenkins is Forbidden, which was recently optioned for TV! Sarah reviewed it for the Washington Post in 2016. Jen has no idea what movie she saw with a character who was passing, but Sarah recommends Nella Larsen's 1929 Passing.
In 2018, they made a movie of Deadly/Sexy. Fun fact, the actor in the movie, Travis Cure, was then the cover model for her next book, Rebel.
The book recommended by Walton Muyumba is called Wayward Lives, Beautiful Experiments.
Buy Fated Mates buttons from Kelly at the shop on Jen's site, and Sarah's t-shirts and other swag here.
Jan 1, 2020, we'll be discussing Born in Ice by Nora Roberts.
S02.12: Lord of Scoundrels: Reel or be Reeled
It may be Thanksgiving week in the US, but that didn’t stop us from recording a monster episode about one of our (and all of Romance’s) favorite books of all time! It’s Lord of Scoundrels week! We’re talking gloves and fans and prologues and why Jessica is one of the best heroines of all time! All that, and Sarah is on a rant about Byron…so don’t miss it!
Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, please leave us a like or a review!
In two weeks, we’re moving across the pond to Beverly Jenkins’s Indigo, with one of Sarah’s favorite heroines ever—Hester Wyatt, Underground Railroad conductor! Read Indigo at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo or your local indie.
Show Notes
Lord of Scoundrels has its own wikipedia page, which in case you're curious, is kind of unusual.
Just look at this gorgeous Lord of Scoundrels embroidery.
If you haven't listened to our episode on Dreaming of You, what are you waiting for?
Maybe you want to find out what you first ordered in your Amazon account.
Jessica Trent is not a Mary Sue.
Erin from Heaving Bosoms is famous for not liking epilogues, but it's a pretty good reason why. But prologues are fine.
You've been lawyered is from How I Met Your Mother.
Sarah wrote the prologue to a new edition of The Transformation of Philip Jettan.
Love's Sweet Arrow is a romance-only bookstore in the Chicago suburbs. It's awesome.
Gentle Rogue started too late.
More about Russian religous icons, but maybe you want to buy some.
The gloves scene in the Age of Innocence movie. All that repressed longing from Daniel Day Lewis! In the book, it's this chapter where Newland Archer "bent over, unbuttoned her tight brown glove, and kissed her palm as if he had kissed a relic."
If you want to know about demon seals and the Wroth brothers, then listen to season one of Fated Mates.
What does it even mean to dance a waltz in the Continental style? Probably not this Continental-style.
The Beverly Jenkins book where the heroine shoots the hero is Tempest.
Reading the banns and a list of people who were married at Saint George Hanover Square.
You'll be shocked to know that Jen has some theories about internal vs. external conflict.
When they're at the wrestling match, Dain says his friend could have "stayed comfortably at home and pumped his wife."
She Walks in Beauty Like the Night is a glorious poem, but that doesn't make Byron any less of a scumbag. That Ada Lovelace was Byron's daughter is kind of wild, but we're glad she's known for being her own person. Despite Sarah trying to create an authorship question for Byron, that's not really a thing. There's no such person as the Duke of Summerville. Jen just made that up.
If you're interested in The Romantics, you can find Jen's old college syllabus here. Lots of Wordsworth, but no Bryon, which is just fine. But we still love the way Loretta Chase used Don Juan in the text of Lord of Scoundrels.
Friend of the pod Adriana Herrera has been reading Lord of Scoundrels for the first time and her tweets about it are honestly the most amazing thing.
Maybe you want to buy some romancelandia buttons or some of Sarah's t-shirts.
Coming up next on December 11, 2019, Indigo by Beverly Jenkins
S02.09: Sierra Simone's Midwest: Priest
It’s Priest week! Sarah put Sierra Simone’s Priest on her Books that Blooded Her list, and this episode is a ride! Jen’s reading first person narrative, we’re both escaped catholics, Sarah imprinted on The Thornbirds, we’ll get to the bottom of anal sex in church (see what we did there?), and fully disagree about how much guilt is too much guilt for a hero. Plus, you’ll hear us tell you how brilliant we think Sierra is.
Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, please leave us a like or a review!
In two weeks, we’re going to a classic of classics! The read was on both Jen & Sarah’s list—Loretta Chase’s Lord of Scoundrels, which is on the lions’ share of Best Romance Novels Ever lists. We’ll get into why. Read Lord of Scoundrels at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo or your local indie.
Show Notes
We love Sierra Simone! Sarah talked about Sinner on the Best Friend's Sibling episode, and Sierra was a special guest on our MacRieve episode. She'll also be joining us on a very special future interstitial.
Will Kresley drop Munro like Beyonce? One can only hope.
If you want to join Sarah's FB Old School Romance Book Club group, click here and wait for moderator approval. We (try to remember but sometimes have to be reminded to) post a discussion post for each week's episode there.
Have you listened to what we consider to be our sister podcasts: The Wicked Wallflowers, Heaving Bosoms, and Black Chick Lit? We also love Learning the Tropes and RomBkPod. Check them out for all your listening needs.
Facebook is garbage and Zuckerberg is aiming for Bond Villain.
The modern day dirty priest fantasy is Fleabag, the old school one is The Thornbirds.
If you're not following Jen Porter on Twitter, what are you doing with your life?
Sierra's Markham Hall series is an erotic retelling of Jane Eyre.
What does it even mean to be star-crossed?
More about reader response theory.
A defintion of "framing device" and how they work in fiction.
In the Catholic Church, penance is one of seven sacraments.
In case you want to know more about hairshirts as a thing, but please don't wear one.
In the Ice Planet Barbarians series, the khui is a mystical thing on the ice planet. That's really all you need to know.
More about the history of Rhode Island as a haven for escaped Catholics. No not that kind of escaped Catholic.
The 2015 movie Spotlight is about the investigative journalists who broke the story of priest sexual abuse in Boston. In one famous scene, a reporter knock on the door of a retired priest who answers her questions in a shocking way. (All the trigger warnings on that scene, by the way.)
Mark Ruffalo the hulk vs Mark Ruffalo in Spotlight.
Sarah recommends the audio of Priest.
This summer, the Catholic Diocese of Providence released the names of 50 priests who were credibly accused of abuse.
Celibacy is a core tenent of Catholic priesthood, but as less and less men enter the priesthood, that might be changing in some interesting ways. Please note that the Vatican is more likely to lift celibacy requirements before they'd allow the ordination of women.
If this is the defintiion of an inspirational romance, then Priest qualifies.
The Tessa Bailey book with "baby girl" is Fix Her Up. It's hot if you don't mind that sort of thing.
Hot Cop is a book by Sierra Simone and Laurelin Page.
In season 2 of Fleabag, the therapist who asks if she wants to "fuck the priest or fuck God" was played by Fiona Shaw. Kristen Scott Thomas gives a barn burner of a speech after the "people are all we have" moment.
All about Saint Anselm.
In case you don't know, the home at the parish for the priest is called the rectory.
Sarah refers to the book of the Bible as Song of Songs, but it's also called the Song of Solomon.
Jenny Nordbak was a guest host on Heaving Bosoms talking about Priest, and it's a great episode if you just need more. Sierra Simone was also on a delicious episode of Wicked Wallflowers!
The sequel to Priest is called Midnight Mass.
Why is a nun's outfit called a habit?
Erin from Heaving Bosoms famously does not read prologues or epilogues. We love her even though we don't really understand.
Shop for buttons from Best Friend Kelly and t-shirts and totes from Sarah.
Christina called in today to talk about Colleen McCullough's The Thornbirds, and we hope she enjoyed Sarah's shout out to it this week!
Coming up: Lord of Scoundrels by Loretta Chase on Nov 20, 2019; Indigo by Beverly Jenkins on Dec 4, 2019; Born in Ice by Nora Roberts on Dec 18, 2019; and A Kingdom of Dreams by Judith McNaught on Jan 8, 2020.
S02.07: That's Spelled J-E-H-N: Dark Lover
Woof, you guys. Woof. This week we’re talking a whole different kind of Vampires (not a single one chained to a radiator…we love u, Conrad) — with JR Ward’s Dark Lover — the first in the Black Dagger Brotherhood Series! We’re talking a LOT this week about toxic masculinity, about the world post 9/11, about what we expect from heroines, about the entire BDB series, and about what the heck is going on in these books. We also get all the titles wrong, as usual.
Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, please leave us a like or a review!
In two weeks, we’re getting more current! The read is Sarah’s Pick, Sierra Simone’s Priest, which is an erotic romance in first-person hero POV, featuring a priest and an exotic dancer (NB: She is not Catholic). If sex in church is your concern, maybe skip this one, but also know that there’s a lot fo religious allegory in here that is fascinating and brilliant. Get it at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo or your local indie.
Show Notes
JR Ward's first pen name was Jessica Bird.
Despite Jen's joke about Proust, she's never actually read him.
Some of the most famous vampire books in fiction were Anne Rice's Interview with a Vampire and Queen of the Damned. And let's not forget Twilight.
In romance, you should check out the Argeneau series by Lynsay Sands, or any number of books by Jeaniene Frost. Nalini Singh's Guild Hunters series has a vampire hunter. Sherrilyn Kenyon also has lots of books in this category. In urban fantasy, of course there was the Sookie Stackhouse series, and it's TV adaptation True Blood.
In fact, the 90s were full of vampires in the movies and on TV: Keanu Reeves in Bram Stoker's Dracula, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and if you've never seen it, the opening scene from Blade that Jen mentioned.
Sarah would like you to consider the fact that very few people know who Mary Shelley is, but Francis Ford Coppola made a blockbuster movie with Bram Stoker's name in the actual title because patriarchy is a helluva drug.
Is it romance or urban fantasy?
The JR Ward interview was in Louisville Magazine.
The Wicked Wallflowers interviewed JR Ward and it's just terrific.
Jen read all the RITAs, and she reviewed Consumed in the romantic suspense category and Dearest Ivie in the paranormal category.
All about sawed-off shotguns.
Sarah said John Michael, but OF COURSE she meant John Matthew. Maybe you should read Lover John Matthew and Xhex.
Mary Bly's article about the Black Dagger Brotherhood appears in New Approaches to Popular Romance Fiction.
The Lessers as Incels.
Caldwell is like the world of Gotham... and why it seems so nihilistic.
Beth and Wrath's story continues in The King, or as we like to call it here at Fated Mates, Lover Wrath and Beth Part 2.
It's Lover Phury and Cormia, and then Lover Rhevenge and Ehlena, and Lover Quinn and Blay.
The Susan Faludi book Sarah mentioned is called The Terror Dream: Myth and Misogyny in an Insecure America.
We don't think Beth is a Mary Sue, and JR Ward doesn't either.
A guide to the waves of feminism.
Wellsie is maybe a stand in for Smith vs. Wellesley.
Jen was reading Native Son in college when her professor told her blindness is always a symbol. Oedipus blinded himself, and oracles are seers are often blind. Daredevil is blind and can still kick your ass. The other most famous Blind King Jen could find is in Assassin's Creed.
Next up is Priest by Sierra Simone.
S02.05: James Malory Gets Bangs: Gentle Rogue
Sarah picked this week’s read without having read it recently, and she shockingly doesn’t regret it! We’re talking Johanna Lindsey’s Gentle Rogue—arguably one of the most beloved texts of the genre, complete with a reformed pirate and a heroine who is having absolutely none of his nonsense. We’ll talk about heroines who are sex positive, about obvious references to the slave trade that are problematic and somehow utterly glossed over, archetypal brothers, and about the shocking lack of plot in this book (which we don’t mind a bit).
Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, please leave us a like or a review!
In two weeks, we’re going back to paranormal with the first book in JR Ward’s Black Dagger Brotherhood series, Dark Lover. It’s a whole ride. Strap in. Get it at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo or your local indie (it’s currently only $2.99 in ebook!).
Show Notes
Jen's the romance correspondent for Kirkus, and she recently wrote about Fabio who appeared on the original cover of Gentle Rogue. Also, this piece by Kelly Faircloth about romance covers is amazing.
When Sarah dreamed of Amy Schumer, I wonder if it was anything like this?
7th grade is awful for everyone.
The Magic of You is all about Georgie's brother Warren.
Here's some basic information about slavery in Jamaica and sugar plantations in particular. And the Slave Voyages site is an amazing and well-researched online archive you should also check out, which includes a searchable database of transatlantic boats and the numbers of enslaved people on board each ship.
Although we didn't mention it the podcast, if you're reading romances where white people have weddings, parties, or balls on plantations...that's terrible.
In real life, billionaires are always a problem.
For your consideration: a goodreads list of ugly duckling romances.
A thread from EE Ottoman about why pants are not the problem... or the answer.
We love Jen Porter.
Lord of Scoundrels will definitely be making an appearnce in season 2.
Sometimes we don't know if it's better to get bangs or just deal with our feelings.
Why are there so many YA love triangles?
The Bridgertons, in case you don't know.
Jen thinks James Malory is a Mary Sue.
Coming up in two weeks, Dark Lover by J. R. Ward.
An official Romancelandia poll on the best emjoi for pegging. I don't even know what to say.
S02.03: Lisa Kleypas Does Spectacles Better than F. Scott Fitzgerald: Dreaming of You
We begin the exploration of The Books That Blooded Us with the one that probably least surprised listeners—Lisa Kleypas’s Dreaming of You! We tackle this fabulous, bonkers book (yes, we get to the bottom of the did-he-or-didn’t-he conundrum, and we spend some serious time discussing Joyce). We also talk about how we think Derek Craven changed the romance hero game, what might have been in the water in romance in the early-mid 1990s, and Sarah tells a few stories about her weekend with the queen herself, Lisa Kleypas.
Don’t forget to like & subscribe in your favorite podcasting app so you don’t miss a single second of us in your earholes!
Show NOtes
Anyone know if Warby Parker is looking for a podcast to sponser?
Sarah & Lisa spent time together because they were signing at Nora Roberts's bookstore, Turn the Page, in real-life Boonsboro, MD. Jen had some hard-core FOMO.
February 4th is Derek Craven Day, look at some of our tweets from that day.
A reminder of that 1992 election and what we should have learned from Anita Hill. But Stormy Danielsis more in control of her narrative.
Josh Lyman never calls it a recession, call it a bagel.
We love Steve Ammidown at the BGSU pop culture library.
IRL, Matilda was Pamela. But that ending, classic Lady or the Tiger or The Sopranos.
The second casino is in Devil in Winter, where Ivo Jenner's daughter falls in love with Sebastian, St. Vincent, whom many think is Lisa's best hero. They are wrong.
We're back on Moonstruck with that mother-in-law and "Bring me the big knife!"
More about some of those Jungian archetypes.
Jen meant coitus interruptus in the Urban Dictionary way, not the Merriam-Webster way.
This article seems to think head hopping is more common in roamance, but I don't know if that's true.
Close third person POV or Free Indirect Speech & Jane Austen.
Have you listened to our bodily autonomy episode?
Dangerous Liasons the book has been around for a long time, but Jen is talking about the 1988 movie.
"She leaves the gun on the table" is a reference to a famous writing precept by Chekhov.
Doing spectacles better than F. Scott Fitzgerald.
Gentle Rogue is coming up in two weeks.
Kelly has some Fated Mates swag and Romancelandia buttons for sale.
Fated Mates is produced by Eric Mortensen
S02.01 Welcome to Season Two
We're Back!
We promised you we'd be back with Season Two in September, and here we are in September, back with Season Two!
We've said farewell to Season One, but we'll never fully be able to quit IAD, so Season Two will be The Books That Blooded Us -- that is, the books that made us the romance readers we are...books that taught us what the genre could be, books that scratched our itch, books that made us lifelong romance readers, books that set us on the path directly to your earholes!
Over the season, we'll tackle 10 (or so) books that blooded each of us -- we'll deep dive, discuss, and delight in each other's picks -- and we've got some fun ideas for how you all can share the books that blooded you!
So...where do we begin? We begin in two weeks with the primordial text for both of us...the one...the only...Dreaming of You. We'll talk Derek Craven's cockney accent, Sara Fielding's legendary novel, Lisa Kleypas's immense skill with talismans, and we'll get to the very bottom of some of the most controversial bits of this glorious book that the two of us love a whole lot.
Get reading, y'all, we've got a lot to say. You can find Dreaming of You at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo, or at your local indie. It's currently $2.99 in digital everywhere, so snatch it up!
We'll be announcing the schedule for the first few reads later this week -- so you'll have time to read ahead, but in the meantime, sit back, relax, and let us give you a preview of what's to come!
Don't forget to like and subscribe in your favorite podcasting platform!
Show Notes
Jen tweeted about Altogether by Brill Harper and then all of Romancedlandia read it. It's deliciously filthy.
Read Sarah's drunk texts to Jen and Kate on the Vika group chat. Take a look at these covers for Rebecca Zanetti's Deadly Silence.
Sarah was on Wicked and the Wallflowers podcast to talk about Brazen and the Beast.
You had no idea flag design was so fascinating.
Looking back at twitter, it might have been a shared love of Derek Craven that made Sarah and Jen friends. We can't wait to discuss Dreaming of You in two weeks.