S06.06: Trailblazer Nalini Singh
Our Trailblazer conversations continue this week with legend Nalini Singh, whose groundbreaking paranormal series changed the game. We talk about the early days of her writing (when she was a kid!) about building her career in New Zealand, about how she came to publish in the US, about her beautiful relationships with readers, about the way she thinks about her series and how the stories hang together, and about her moves into contemporary and beyond.
We are so grateful to Nalini Singh for making time for us, and for her amazing books.
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Show Notes
Welcome Nalini Singh, author of dozens of romance novels, including several popular paranormal series. You should subscribe to her newsletter on her site! We did a deep dive of Caressed by Ice in Season 4.
Preorder her new thriller, There Should Have Been Eight, coming November 21st, right now.
Authors & Books: The Time is Short by Nerina Hilliard, Christine Feehan, Sherrilyn Kenyon, Jayne Ann Krentz, Yvonne Lindsay/EV Lind, Karina Bliss, Louisa George, Helen Bianchin, Emma Darcy, JD Robb, Meljean Brook.
Publishing Professionals: Berkley editor Cindy Hwang, bookseller Barbara Clendon owner of Barbara’s Books.
A transcript (by a human being!) is available for this episode.
Books Mentioned This Episode
Sponsors
Andrea Jenelle, author of No Doubts, available at
Amazon, or with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited.
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Lumi Labs, creators of Microdose Gummies
Visit microdose.com and use the code FATEDMATES
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Transcript
Nalini Singh 00:00:00 / #: Back then think back to whatever the opportunities were in, say, the US North America for publishing. This is, we have to say this is pre-Indie publishing, pre-eBooks even. Whatever the options were, you have to narrow that down again and again and again by the time you get to New Zealand because very few publishers were taking submissions from outside either the US or the UK. And even books had to be set in America quite often. Or if you're going for the UK publishers that had to be set in London. And I hadn't traveled anywhere at that point. I was a high school kid. And one of the only publishers that was accepting worldwide submissions and were publishing books at Worldwide was Harlequin, Mills & Boon. And then later Silhouette became part of that too. So for me, thinking of how am I actually going to get published, it made a lot of sense to start with the contemporary side of things and start by submitting to Harlequin or Silhouette.
Jennifer Prokop 00:01:15 / #: That was the voice of Nalini Singh, one of the first women of color to write extensively in the paranormal romance space, which is something she's going to talk about with us. Author of both the first and second seasons of the Psy-Changeling series.
Sarah MacLean 00:01:33 / #: I love that. I love the way she thinks about that.
Jennifer Prokop 00:01:36 / #: Along with the Guild Hunter series, the Rock Addiction series and category romances. We're going to talk to Nalini about her journey through romance, the way she perceives herself, the role of New Zealand romance authors, and what it's like to send your first manuscript off when you're a teenager.
Sarah MacLean 00:01:59 / #: The best. This is Fate of Mates everyone. I'm Sarah McLean. I read romance novels and I write them.
Jennifer Prokop 00:02:06 / #: I'm Jennifer Prokop, a romance reader and editor. And without further ado, here's our conversation with Nalini Singh. Welcome, Nalini Singh. We are so excited to have you on Fate of Mates as a trailblazer.
Nalini Singh 00:02:21 / #: I'm so excited to be here. I love the conversations you both have had. Oh, well I obviously, I cannot speak English, on the previous episodes. I really enjoyed. So yeah, it's really fun to be here.
Sarah MacLean 00:02:38 / #: Well, we're so thrilled to have you. We're so thrilled always to have somebody who can talk to us extensively about a subgenre. We immediately, the second we started the Trailblazers, your name went onto the list. So we're so excited to finally be able to do this. Why don't we start with where we start with everyone, which is, how did you come to romance? Why romance?
Nalini Singh 00:03:08 / #: I'm one of those people who has been a lifelong reader from childhood. So I was born in Fiji, which is a very small dot of an island in the Pacific. I think the last time I looked, the entire population is something like 800,000 people across. And it's not one island. We say it's actually islands, lots of islands dotted about. But I remember then, there used to be one big library in Suva City, but then the little mobile book buses would come to school. And that was my favorite.
00:03:43 / #: And I always used to get on and be like, okay, I can't wait until I'm old enough, until they let me go into the grownup section of the book bus because I had to be in the kids and young adult section. And when we moved to New Zealand, there were all these libraries and each of the suburbs has a library, and then there's the big Central City library. And I was just like, this is heaven. So I think my love of writing definitely came from my love of reading. And in terms of how I found myself in romance particularly, I think I started reading romance quite early at the Mills & Boons.
Sarah MacLean 00:04:26 / #: Same.
Jennifer Prokop 00:04:27 / #: Us too.
Sarah MacLean 00:04:29 / #: So do you remember who those authors were, the books that really brought you to the genre?
Nalini Singh 00:04:35 / #: Yeah, yeah. I went to see my aunt at one point, and she was a huge Mills & Boon reader, and she gave me this whole bag of books that I literally brought back on the plane. And I had people like Betty Neal's and is it Anne Mather?
Jennifer Prokop 00:04:54 / #: Ann Mather, sure.
Nalini Singh 00:04:54 / #: Emma Darcy, Miranda Lee, Robin Donnells-
Sarah MacLean 00:05:00 / #: The classics.
Jennifer Prokop 00:05:01 / #: Yeah.
Nalini Singh 00:05:02 / #: Yeah. The classics. I grew up on those and there was this one book that really made an impact. And I think she only ever wrote six romances, Nerina Hilliard.
Jennifer Prokop 00:05:12 / #: Oh, I know that name.
Nalini Singh 00:05:15 / #: Yeah, the Time Is Short. That's the title. And I was obsessed with this book, and it's one of the old school Mills & Boons that were quite thick, quite big books. They weren't the shorter categories now. And it's classic, classic romance. She's dying of this brain tumor. And then she goes to this island and she's falling in love with this guy who's this billionaire kind of thing. I need to reread that because I've still got the copy still. Still got my old copy.
Jennifer Prokop 00:05:44 / #: I have also bought the first romances I ever read from the bag in my grandma's basement. And listen, they're still bangers. They're still so good.
Nalini Singh 00:05:53 / #: They're so good.
Sarah MacLean 00:05:54 / #: So she miraculously survives the tumor?
Nalini Singh 00:05:57 / #: I think there's an emergency surgery at one point, and I think the surgeon had a traumatic pass, so it was also his... Because it's a bigger book, so you could have some flux and all of that. But yeah, I just fell in love with those books. And I think it was the emotions that looking back, when I was younger, I obviously didn't analyze them in that way. I was just reading for the joy of it. But I think that the emotional impact of those books really, really struck me hard. And that was my gateway into romance. But then I was also reading a lot of science fiction and fantasy, and a lot of those books actually have a thread of romance. And I was realizing that I wanted more romance in my science fiction and fantasy and more world building fantasy stuff in my romance. So that's how I got into Paranormal Romance. I just squashed together everything I loved. And I remember finding the first paranormal romance as I read, and I was like, "Wow, it's a thing. It's a thing."
Jennifer Prokop 00:07:11 / #: So what was that for you? Because I feel like we talk a lot about 2005 and 2006, there's this huge explosion, but there definitely were vampires before, right?
Nalini Singh 00:07:23 / #: Yeah. Yeah.
Jennifer Prokop 00:07:24 / #: So what were the things that you were reading before you started writing Psy-Changelings?
Nalini Singh 00:07:30 / #: Oh, they were actually published before then. So I think some of the authors I was reading was like Christine Feehan, her Dark series was probably one of the first and Sherrilyn Kenyon, those are the two big names that were ahead of the curve. But even more ahead of the curve was Jane Ann Krentz, who under Jane Castle. And even under her Krentz name, I think she wrote-
Sarah MacLean 00:08:01 / #: Sweet Starfire.
Nalini Singh 00:08:03 / #: Yes, Sweet Starfire, Crystal Flame, all of those books. I am an obsessed fan-girl of her just so you know.
Sarah MacLean 00:08:10 / #: So are we.
Jennifer Prokop 00:08:10 / #: We had her on-
Sarah MacLean 00:08:14 / #: If you haven't listened to the Jane Ann Krentz episode of Fated Mates go immediately to do that. It will change your entire life.
Nalini Singh 00:08:21 / #: Oh my gosh.
Jennifer Prokop 00:08:21 / #: It's so good. Yeah, I think about it all the time.
Nalini Singh 00:08:26 / #: She's such a good speaker. I haven't got to that episode yet, so now, I'm just going to fast-forward through everything and get to it. But yeah, she was doing stuff I think, before almost anyone else. And I have spoken to her and I have listened to her speak and she's like, "Oh yeah, I almost killed my career doing that because nobody was ready for it."
Jennifer Prokop 00:08:48 / #: Well, and that's it too. It's like if you're before the wave, it's easy to just go under as opposed to writing it into claim and a fame.
Sarah MacLean 00:08:58 / #: So can we talk about that wave? Because it feels like it was a huge crashing wave in the early aughts. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit about how it felt at the time. Was it clear that it was just paranormal was everywhere or coming everywhere?
Nalini Singh 00:09:20 / #: Yeah. There was definitely a lot of authors coming up with paranormal. The funny thing is most people don't realize, but I came in on the end and I remember my editor, so my editor, Cindy Hwang, who I've had for well, 18 years now, I think, something like that. She said they were actually not buying any more paranormals when my book ended up on her desk.
Sarah MacLean 00:09:50 / #: Oh, interesting.
Nalini Singh 00:09:52 / #: Yeah. But she loved Life Dissensations so much she actually went to the publisher and said, "I know we're not buying paranormals, but I think we should buy this one." So I came in when they said paranormal was actually on the down trend.
Sarah MacLean 00:10:08 / #: Interesting.
Nalini Singh 00:10:08 / #: And I think I do believe the reports of its demise were too soon. Too early.
Jennifer Prokop 00:10:14 / #: Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 00:10:16 / #: Yeah. It didn't feel like it ended that already.
Nalini Singh 00:10:17 / #: It didn't. But yeah, so that was an interesting time because there are a lot of big paranormal names already. The big series were already out there. And then, so I came along and yeah, so it was really good. I found an editor that got me and here we are. But it really was, I think, the heyday of paranormal as a subgenre, because I remember you both probably do as well, on Smart Bitches, Trashy books. They did the Save the Contemporary campaign.
Jennifer Prokop 00:10:52 / #: Save the Contemporary.
Nalini Singh 00:10:53 / #: Yeah. Because-
Jennifer Prokop 00:10:54 / #: Doesn't that seem wild now?
Nalini Singh 00:10:57 / #: I know. And now, contemporary is everywhere, but back then, it was historical and paranormal were really ascendant and you didn't really have very many contemporaries taking the spotlight. And I think it's flipped now. Contemporaries are just rolling the roast and the other subgenres are at the back of it a bit. But I think if you've been around long enough in the industry, you see the cycles. Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 00:11:24 / #: Yeah.
Jennifer Prokop 00:11:26 / #: There are huge boom and bust cycles. I feel like whatever romance gods there are also ruled like the stock market and the Rockefeller's Bank account, like boom and bust. That's all we know.
Sarah MacLean 00:11:39 / #: Well wait-
Jennifer Prokop 00:11:40 / #: No nothing in the middle.
Sarah MacLean 00:11:41 / #: Before we go much further, I want to name though, that your first book was not Slave to Sensation.
Nalini Singh 00:11:47 / #: No, no.
Sarah MacLean 00:11:48 / #: So could you take us back a little bit and talk to us about the very beginning? Why did you start writing? What were you writing? How did you become a published author?
Nalini Singh 00:12:02 / #: Okay. So like I said, obsessed with romances, obsessed with writing. And I decided quite early that I wanted to write a novel. And funnily enough, one of the first things I wrote was looking back as a science fiction romance. It's like [inaudible 00:12:20 / #]. It's like about a prince with lasers coming out of his eyes and he can't fall in love because there's lasers killing everybody.
Jennifer Prokop 00:12:28 / #: Perfect.
Nalini Singh 00:12:29 / #: I was quite young, okay?
Jennifer Prokop 00:12:30 / #: No, this is perfect.
Nalini Singh 00:12:34 / #: But part of it was the reason... So I started in category romance, and one of the reasons I started, well, there's multiple reasons. One is that I think for world building, I needed to learn all the stuff and I didn't feel... I was still doing it, but I just never had that sweet spot where I felt like I created something different and unique and that everything felt shallow at that stage that I was building. But I had the romance down. I felt like I had the romance down at least. And back then, think back to whatever the opportunities were in, say the US, North America for publishing, we have to say this is pre indie publishing, pre eBooks even.
00:13:27 / #: Whatever the options were, you have to narrow that down again and again and again by the time you get to New Zealand because very few publishers were taking submissions from outside, either the US or the UK, and even books had to be set in America quite often. Or if you're going for the UK publishers, they had to be set in London. And I hadn't traveled anywhere at that point. I was a high school kid and one of the only publishers that was accepting worldwide submissions and where publishing books at worldwide was Harlequin, Mills & Boon. And then later, Silhouette became part of that too.
00:14:14 / #: So for me, thinking of how am I actually going to get published, it made a lot of sense to start with the contemporary side of things and things start by submitting to Harlequin or Silhouette. And I did my first submission in high school, okay?
Sarah MacLean 00:14:34 / #: Amazing.
Nalini Singh 00:14:35 / #: I was so proud. It was a terrible book, but I'm so proud. I wrote a whole book and it was called-
Sarah MacLean 00:14:41 / #: Yeah, that's amazing.
Nalini Singh 00:14:44 / #: The heroine had a broken leg and the title was, and A Broken Heart too. I still have that book, you guys. I made my best friend at high school read it and she was like, "I guess it's good." She wasn't a romance reader at all.
Sarah MacLean 00:15:08 / #: Wait, so what happened? Now I need to know. So you submitted?
Nalini Singh 00:15:13 / #: Oh my God, I should have pulled out.
Sarah MacLean 00:15:14 / #: Did you get a letter back? Did you get letters back?
Nalini Singh 00:15:18 / #: I got not a letter. It's like a, what you call it? Compliment slip.
Sarah MacLean 00:15:23 / #: Yeah, like a little slip.
Nalini Singh 00:15:23 / #: Basically said, no, we don't want it.
Jennifer Prokop 00:15:23 / #: We received mail from you. That's all we're willing to say.
Sarah MacLean 00:15:30 / #: No of those slips are legendary. Yeah.
Nalini Singh 00:15:33 / #: I know. I still have it.
Sarah MacLean 00:15:36 / #: Oh my gosh. But Baby Nalini did a thing. That's amazing.
Jennifer Prokop 00:15:40 / #: Yeah.
Nalini Singh 00:15:40 / #: I did. And I'm so proud because I knew nobody in the industry. I knew less than nobody. I actually called up the distributor for Mills & Boon in New Zealand and said, "Oh, how can I submit to them?" And they were so nice because Harlequin has those, I don't know if they still do, they had these forms that they had the information on how you could submit. And the distributors like, "Oh, we've got one of these, shall I send it to you?" This is New Zealand guys. They're so nice.
Sarah MacLean 00:16:09 / #: Amazing.
Jennifer Prokop 00:16:09 / #: That's amazing.
Sarah MacLean 00:16:13 / #: You know, Nalini, somebody else we talked to had this story.
Jennifer Prokop 00:16:16 / #: It was Mary Balogh. She sent it to the warehouse and somebody read it and passed it on.
Sarah MacLean 00:16:21 / #: Forwarded it on. Yeah.
Nalini Singh 00:16:23 / #: Yeah. You have to be a self-starter in this industry. And I think back then, that was how you did it. You had to get in front of somebody, and if you didn't know anything, you just rang around and until you found some information.
Sarah MacLean 00:16:38 / #: So at this point, because now there's a very robust community in New Zealand, a romance writing community in New Zealand. But at the time, at least you didn't know about it.
Nalini Singh 00:16:48 / #: I didn't know it. So I'd actually submitted, I would say probably three or four manuscripts, or maybe three. By the time I saw this little article in the local newspaper about the Romance Writers of New Zealand conference. And I think at that time, maybe it was maybe the third or fourth conference, so, I hadn't been around super long, and I was like, "Wow." It's the first time I heard of other people in New Zealand trying to do this, and I knew that Robin Donald and Susan Napier and Daphne Claire wrote for Harlequin. So I knew there were authors in New Zealand who did it, but the idea of actually meeting any of them was just completely... They were celebrities and how was I going to meet them, this kid from the suburbs kind of thing.
00:17:41 / #: And so my mom actually paid for me to go to the conference as my birthday present. So she's always been so supportive. She had to sit there. I was sitting in the kitchen reading the prints with the lasers coming out to her. She's like, "Oh yeah, that's really good." And she's cooking dinner.
Sarah MacLean 00:18:00 / #: Oh, I love that.
Nalini Singh 00:18:04 / #: Yeah. So that was the time I actually met a group of writers, basically any writers. Before then, my only access to writers was probably literary fiction writers that came to school to give talks and stuff. And I still remember walking into that room and it was a very small conference back then, I would say probably less than 50 people. And so it was, we were all in one room and just chatting. And they had speakers and they had actual editors from Mills & Boon because they had offices down here, and they would come and wow, it blew my mind. I learned a lot from RWNZ and it's a really nice community of people and it's very small. It's not associated with any other bigger group, so RWNZ is its own entity. And it's always kept, I think it's heart very well.
00:19:05 / #: And I think when you have a smaller group, it tends to be like that. You tend to stick together more because I think even now, the entire membership is something like 300 people. So it's tiny, just super supportive and so much knowledge. And that's where I learned to actually do proper submissions and stuff. So all this time, I'd just been sending them manuscripts, single-spaced because it cost less money to [inaudible 00:19:32 / #].
00:19:34 / #: Yeah. So that's when I really started to do some crafts, so now, I've learned some crafts. But a lot of my learning, I would say, came from just obsessively writing because I just did it over and over and over again. And then I started submitting and then I actually got picked up out of the slush pile in New York, and I didn't sell the first I think, book that got picked up by the slush pile, but the editor said, "Send it to me directly next time." So I did the next book. And I wasn't even writing three chapters in a synopsis. I was writing four books because at this point, it's book 10. And she asked for revisions and I did the revisions and yeah, that was the book that sold.
Sarah MacLean 00:20:23 / #: Who was that? Do you remember?
Nalini Singh 00:20:26 / #: Yeah, Diane Deitz at Silhouette. She's not an editor anymore. She was my editor for I think, two or three books. But I'll always remember her because she was the one who bought my very, very first book. Yeah.
Jennifer Prokop 00:20:41 / #: And so how old were you when that happened?
Nalini Singh 00:20:48 / #: I got the call for the sale the day before my 25th birthday.
Jennifer Prokop 00:20:54 / #: Wow, that's amazing.
Sarah MacLean 00:20:56 / #: And you'd written 10 books already.
Nalini Singh 00:20:58 / #: Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 00:20:58 / #: Oh my gosh, what a hustle.
Nalini Singh 00:21:03 / #: I just wanted to do it, the passion of it. That's what I wanted to do. Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 00:21:10 / #: This week's episode of Fated Mates is brought to you by Andrea Janell, the author of No Doubts, the fifth book in the Willow Creek series. So as we know, Willow Creek is a nice little small town and Alaric, who is a driven astrophysicist, who has twin daughters who need a chance to reconnect with their aunt, also needs a little bit of time to finish his book, which-
Jennifer Prokop 00:21:38 / #: He probably needs a quiet small town.
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Jennifer Prokop 00:22:18 / #: No, he can't deal with her sunshine, that's Sarah. He's so grumpy.
Sarah MacLean 00:22:21 / #: He cannot deal with the sunshine she is providing turn down service of all kinds, I think. And listen, if you love a bed and breakfast, a grumpy astrophysicist hero and a heroine who just wants to give him a little love, this is for you.
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00:23:01 / #: So when you then really transition from category to paranormal, did you have a sense that you were really, I don't know, it just became such a massive success, the whole Psy-Changeling series? Or did you really feel like it was, like you said earlier you were too late for it. When did you realize that maybe they weren't quite right about paranormal being over?
Nalini Singh 00:23:30 / #: I think when I started to actually, when I became full-time as a writer, because that took several years as well. And also, because I'm super-conservative, even though I quit my day job after selling my first book, people don't do this. I was young and I was like, "You know what? If I'm probably going to quit my day job at any point, it might as well be now, during my eating noodles every night if I have to." I kept doing part-time work for a long time because I really was like, I need to be in a position where I can support myself. Because writing income is very erratic. It's not like a job where you get paid weekly or bi-weekly.
00:24:19 / #: Yeah, I think when I actually went full time, I was like, okay, yeah, this is happening. These books have got legs and yeah. Maybe. Yeah. And I think also, I think it was probably around the same time that the first book actually, so the first book to hit the big bestseller list was I think the fourth book in the Psy-Changeling series. So Mine to Possess hit the extended New York Times bestseller list. And yeah, it really felt like, okay, because prior to that, I was very aware that series don't always get room to spread, that readers don't get interested in them, or for whatever reason, it doesn't strike a chord. And then that's it. Back then, there was no way to finish them. You stopped and you started writing something else. And so it felt like, wow, this is actually picking up readers as it goes along, which is a really nice feeling when you're starting something completely new. Yeah.
Jennifer Prokop 00:25:38 / #: So you started the Archangel series. So at some point, you had two paranormal series going. You're a very prolific writer, you produce. So was that something you just had a urge to write, another series in another world? Or were you trying to branch out? What was your thinking about starting a second new series when we already know that series can be a little dicey.
Nalini Singh 00:26:09 / #: Yeah. So you know how I said I wrote obsessively all through school and stuff? So I wrote through uni and I went to law school as well. So I wrote through that. I wrote through being a junior lawyer. So by the time I got to be a full-time writer, I was like, "I have so much time. I have so much time." Because I was so used to writing in really concentrated chunks. I would have 45 minutes maybe, if I was lucky in a day, and I would just write. And so once I got over the, I don't know, if you find this, Sarah, but when I went full time at first I was like, I have so much time. It takes a while to sit.
Jennifer Prokop 00:26:49 / #: Yeah, yeah. You waste so much time. I think when you-
Nalini Singh 00:26:52 / #: So much time. Because you don't realize. Yeah. But once I settled down, I realized my writing pace and the way I wrote was such that I had a lot of room to do something else. And I said to my agent, I've already got this one series and it's quite a complex series, and I knew what I wanted to do with it. And I knew the complexity was going to grow. And I thought, I'm going to write some standalones in between, so I'll write standalone stuff, which will be easier on my brain and it'll refresh me between the Psy-Changeling books. And what I did not realize is, I write series-
Jennifer Prokop 00:27:40 / #: Yes.
Sarah MacLean 00:27:41 / #: Is that you can't stop world building.
Nalini Singh 00:27:43 / #: Yeah. So especially in paranormal or urban fantasy spaces, I wrote Angel's Blood and I kept telling myself it was a standalone. And so now, a lot of people look back and say, "Oh, you put the seven in place and they were all going to have books." No, they weren't. They were just going to exist in this one book was, that was the plan.
Sarah MacLean 00:28:06 / #: That's against the rules of romance.
Nalini Singh 00:28:07 / #: It's quite funny. Everybody was like, "You know you're writing a series?" I'm like, "No, it's one book." But, it was an accidental series, that one. It was just by the time I got to the end, I was like, okay, well, I can't stop now. The world was too big and there was too much I wanted to do with it.
Sarah MacLean 00:28:30 / #: Did you have a group of, because I'm fascinated by writing on the other side of the world right, right now, we're however many hours apart, you're in tomorrow as we talk. Did you have a community of other writers in New Zealand who you were connecting with or were you connecting with the other paranormal authors around the world? What was your community like during all of this?
Nalini Singh 00:28:59 / #: So at first, I had my local group, they're amazing. And you have to remember, the online spaces just didn't really exist the way they do now. So I think there were a few message boards and stuff, but I just wasn't on them. I just wasn't aware of them. I think at that time, you were really online if you were a bit more techy, if you had the knowledge to get into those spaces. So I was very local and I had such an amazing group of people here. I am still friends with them to this day. We still get together regularly.
00:29:38 / #: My friend, Yvonne Lindsay, she wrote tons of books for Desire and she's writing thrillers now under EV Lind. She was one of my first friends. And then Karina Bliss, she wrote the Rock Star books. Louisa George, Tessa Radly, there's so many names. My friend Shah, who is more into marketing side of things. My friend Pera, these are people who have been in my life for 20 years and counting. And it was just such a nice group of people and we supported each other and on the next level up, so these were people I grew with. We all started on the ground floor, we're submitting, we're writing stuff, we're trying things out, we're sharing information.
00:30:25 / #: But on the next level up, we had people like Robin Donald, Daphne Claire, who were really, really generous with their time and just really helped support younger writers coming up. They used to run a romance writing course up north, and they actually invited me up there at one point and they were just so encouraging and telling me, "Yeah, you can do this. This is what maybe you need to do with your work to take it to the next level." So they were brilliant. And then we had the writers from Australia who came over and the conference and stuff like Helen Bianchin and Emma Darcy, just so much knowledge in those heads.
00:31:18 / #: And on the other side of things, there's a bookseller here, Barbara Clendon, she used to run Barbara's books and she's retired from that now. But she was just a wealth of information because she was a small Indie bookseller and she used to bring in books from the US like books we would get nowhere else in the major bookstores because you know the major bookstores just had general spread of books. She was the one who had Christine Feehan and then Sherrilyn Kenyon and JD Robb. And she literally put JD Robb in my hand and said, "You're going to like this book."
00:32:00 / #: I have now read every single J.D Robb ever created. So she was right, but she's still a friend of mine. And just the information that she would share with us, because she kept us up to date with what was actually happening in the industry. She used to actually give little talks and say, "This is what's selling, and this is the new books coming out." And see, I had a really, really lovely community here, and I think I really started to build connections overseas after I attended my very first conference in the US, which was I think in 2006. Yeah, 2006. I was meeting people face to face. And prior to that, oh, I know the Harlequin boards, there were the Harlequin boards. That's where I met people before the conference.
Sarah MacLean 00:32:57 / #: These boards, I was never on those boards, but they were legend. People talk about those boards. They were incredible.
Nalini Singh 00:33:06 / #: I think they were one of the biggest spaces for romance readers and writers to interact. And I made a lot of friends on there that I met for the first time at that conference. And then from there, I felt like I was online a bit more. And so I started to make connections with people in my subgenre because there wasn't really anybody writing that here. So to make those connections, I had to go online and it helped that to Berkeley, my publisher, published a lot of people who wrote Paranormal, and so I was making friends. I got along really well with Meljean Brooke.
00:33:49 / #: And then, yeah, the names are just going [inaudible 00:33:56 / #] on my head, like I said, but there were so many people and we used to get together and do promotion things together and all organized online. So the community has grown now, I think considerably because I've been around a long time and I've met a lot of people, but also, I've met people just online. There's people I've never met in real life, but because we've been friends for so long online, it feels like it's a friendship just as deep. Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 00:34:30 / #: This week's episode of Fated Mates is sponsored by Lumi Labs, creators of microdose gummies.
Jennifer Prokop 00:34:36 / #: Well, Sarah, let me tell you, as you know, I have been sick.
Sarah MacLean 00:34:40 / #: I know for weeks. Poor baby.
Jennifer Prokop 00:34:42 / #: For weeks. I've never really been this sick. And I am taking a lot of medicine, but I've also been supplementing with some gummies because there have been times in particular, where I'm just so overtired, I almost have a hard time falling asleep. Or another thing that was happening was just the cough. I was coughing so hard and I just wanted to just chill out ever so slightly. And so I have really found, once again, the microdose gummy has really come into play for me. So in that case, it was just managing my pain and helping me sleep a little bit, which is one of the very many benefits of microdosing, which you can find out more by going to microdose.com and finding out about how these gummies can deliver the perfect entry level dose of THC to help you feel in this case, a little bit better.
Sarah MacLean 00:35:38 / #: When you have whatever Jen has,
Jennifer Prokop 00:35:41 / #: Bronchitis forever.
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00:36:16 / #: So you mentioned readers earlier, so can you talk to us a little bit about your reader community? Is there a moment you can share about the personal or emotional impact that your books have had on readers?
Nalini Singh 00:36:33 / #: Yeah. I remember getting my very first email. That was pretty amazing. It was a fan mail, and it was from Nigeria. The first person ever to write to me was from Nigeria. So apparently, it was a huge romance reading community over there, and I actually got letters from there as well. But yeah, one thing that happened after Slave to Sensation, which I guess I wasn't ready for because I hadn't realized what I'd done, so this sounds weird, but I started getting letters saying, "Oh my God, it's so nice to see a person of color as the heroine." And okay, I am a person of color. And I had never realized that all these paranormals I'd read had no people of color as the heroine, the main protagonist. And so I was like, whoa. And then I went back and I looked through all these books and I was like, wow. Yeah.
00:37:42 / #: And so I felt like I did something there that I was giving something to these readers that hadn't existed before. And so that was one thing that happened that really struck me, and it struck with me to this day getting those messages because they just started coming organically. And then I've heard some really heartbreaking letters from readers over the years who've read something at a time when they just needed to read and escape. And that's why I say when someone says romance is escapism, and I say, "What's wrong with that?" Sometimes you need to escape in a really bad situation. And I've cried, some of these letters are so heart-breaking. Actually ended up becoming friends with a lady who wrote to me and said she was going through chemo, and she really wanted to know the end of this particular thing. And she wasn't sure it was going to be out by the time because she was in a bad situation.
00:38:56 / #: And so I actually told her what the... I'm going to cry, but she did beat it. And then we stayed in touch for a long time, and then one day, she didn't reply anymore. And I still think about that, and I think that in the end that she did pass away. But it's these moments that you build connections with people that maybe you will never meet and having an impact on their life, whether big or small.
00:39:33 / #: There's one letter I remember where someone wrote to me, and they just had a bad day. They just had a bad day. Someone yelled at them at work, they got splashed by the bus while they're walking home. They were completely wet. And they came home and there was bills on the floor in the litter box, and they were just crying. And then they saw their book had come, and then they just decided, you know what? They dried off. They opened the book, they made a cup of tea, and they read. And they just found a little piece of happiness. And I think that's just as important. Just those moments we give readers. So I never take it for granted. I think it's such a beautiful connection we can make. Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 00:40:18 / #: Well, and you do such powerful reader service. You're so connected to readers. I'm a subscriber to your newsletter. I see how much work you put into your newsletters. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about all of that craft that you do, the writing that you do that is for readers without any... They don't have to buy it, you just provide it to them. And I think that's really special and very unique. I don't think there are that many writers who do that kind of work for readers.
Jennifer Prokop 00:40:57 / #: And for people who don't know, you have so many short stories, for example, in the Psy-Changeling world, there's all these on ramps that are, it's not just the novels. There's so much extra stuff, and it really is delightful as a reader to feel that there's just more out there.
Sarah MacLean 00:41:15 / #: Well, and it feels like a gift every time an email comes through.
Nalini Singh 00:41:20 / #: So thank you for that. Yeah, it started because I was writing stuff just to explore characters and things, I would just write... Because some of them are vignettes. They're not full short stories, so you have to know the characters to appreciate. And then some of them are full short stories with the beginning and middle and the end. And I remember, because I'm a reader, I am a reader at heart. So it's like, what would I like to get as a reader? And I was like, "I want to know more about my favorite characters." I'm the person who's making up the story in my head after the final page of the book because I want to know what the next bit of the story is. And so I actually asked my readers, I said, "Do you want the stuff?" And they're like, "Of course we want this. What are you talking about?"
Sarah MacLean 00:42:13 / #: Yes, we want the stuff.
Nalini Singh 00:42:16 / #: So that's how it started. And I still do it for the fun of it. I write these at night usually, or just randomly, I'm sitting in an airport, I write it. Because these characters live and breathe in my head, particularly in the series, because I've lived with them so long. They have their own personalities, they have their own quirks, and the timeline of their story continues past the books. And so in the newsletter, it's such a nice way to be able to share that with readers. And yeah, it's just been very organic. And I always think, in my newsletters, what do I like getting from other writers whose newsletters I subscribe to? What makes me happy? What makes me want to open... Because I've always thought of my newsletter as a connection with my readers, so I don't want them to see it and they think, oh, another newsletter, it's just really silly, because we're all subscribed to so many things these days.
00:43:22 / #: So I want it to be something that they actually want to open, that they want to read, and that actually gives them a little bit of happiness in the day. And I always find it so cool when people email me and say, "Oh, I saved it to read with my cup of tea in the afternoon," kind of thing. And I thought, that's so cool. That's what I want. And I used to do it completely on my own. I have an assistant now, so she helps with putting links and all of that, doing the formatting and stuff. So that's really helpful. But the writing is still me because I think it's really important that I'm the one that's speaking to my readers with their newsletter because it is a one-on-one connection with each reader. And I have fun with it.
00:44:04 / #: And I think if somebody else was going to think about doing stuff like this, you have to have fun with it. You have to enjoy it as a writer. And that's what comes through. I write these fun little stories about the bear cubs getting covered in flour because they decided to make a cake in the middle of the night, and that cracks me up. I'm laughing along as I'm writing, and so it doesn't feel like work. It's just like I'm just having a bit of fun.
Jennifer Prokop 00:44:35 / #: It's just joy.
Nalini Singh 00:44:36 / #: Yeah, it's just joy.
Jennifer Prokop 00:44:37 / #: So I have two very good friends named Kelly, and one of them is a huge Psy-Changeling reader. And I was like, "Okay, Kelly, what do you want me to ask Nalini?" And she said, "Is Alice Eldridge ever going to get a story, a vignette? An anything?" And I was like, "I'll ask her." Let's see what she says.
Sarah MacLean 00:44:57 / #: This is the first time for a Trailblazer interview where we've-
Jennifer Prokop 00:45:00 / #: Yes, I know. I was like, I have a very personal question from a friend of mine. Alice Eldridge, what's going to happen?
Nalini Singh 00:45:06 / #: So Alice is an interesting character because even though we have known her for a long time in the book world, the timeline hasn't actually moved very fast. The Psy-Changeling series started in 2079 and we're in 2083 now. And so Alice hasn't had a lot of time to adapt to what's happened. So I've never forgotten her. I never forget any of these people. But with the Psy-Changeling series, there is a very strong overarching story structure. And so it's always like, who is important to this part of that story structure? So sometimes, it's like, well, I can't actually get a character in just because I want to see them, right? Yeah. So the answer is, I haven't forgotten her. And it is possible. It is possible something will happen, but she's not growing really old or anything out there.
Sarah MacLean 00:46:15 / #: I have a structure question for you. I wonder, sometimes you talk to authors, especially authors who do such intense world building in paranormal or urban fantasy, and the series is complete in their head. They maybe haven't gotten to the end, but they know what the end game is. They know how many books there are, they know what the plan is. But Psy-Changeling, there's this intense world building. But it sounds like what you're really saying is you don't have an end in mind. Is it expansive in that way? Or do you have a, eventually we're going to get to this place, idea?
Nalini Singh 00:47:00 / #: So I'm a little bit in between. So basically I think it's really important when you start a series to navigate because it stops the tangential meandering off into-
Sarah MacLean 00:47:11 / #: These extra-
Nalini Singh 00:47:12 / #: La La Land. Yeah. So if you look at the first series of the Psy-Changeling series, book one to book 15, it is a very specific, can I just spoiler things? I'm just going to spoiler.
Sarah MacLean 00:47:24 / #: Yeah.
Jennifer Prokop 00:47:24 / #: Yes, that's fine. Yeah.
Nalini Singh 00:47:26 / #: So we begin with silence and by book 15, silence has fallen. So that was the main arc of that first season. That's what I wanted to do. And originally, I thought that would be where the series ended because we have the beginning and we have the ending. And I was really satisfied with the story I told, but then I realized when we got to that point that, what now? I messed everything up for these people.
Jennifer Prokop 00:48:01 / #: [inaudible 00:47:59 / #]. Right?
Nalini Singh 00:48:01 / #: So the problems are still there. So the next season began very naturally from that point, which is okay, we are at that point where silence has fallen, but the silence is not in a great place. They still have the issues that led them to choose silences, choose this life without emotion. And so what were they going to do now? And then I actually had to sit down and think about what I want to do in season two. So season two also is going towards a particular point. So I'm always leading readers towards a particular point. The one thing I don't know is how many books it'll take to get there, because that part, I allow to just happen naturally. It could take 10 books to get to the end of season two, it could take eight books. I don't know. It could take another 15.
Jennifer Prokop 00:48:52 / #: I love that you talk about them as seasons. It feels right.
Nalini Singh 00:48:58 / #: Yeah, because I learned this from watching television because if you look at a really well-written series of television, you'll see the arc, it's complete. And you have that satisfaction even though you might be going into season two with a different arc. And so a really good example of this, it's an old series, is Heroes. The first season of Heroes is really, well-written it. It's structured, so you can see where it's leading. And then you see the series where they start out with a really good concept, but they actually haven't thought of the ending.
Jennifer Prokop 00:49:28 / #: And it's messy.
Nalini Singh 00:49:30 / #: And then you don't get... It's messy. So I didn't want the mess. And so always, I consciously... I'm not a plotter as such book by book, but I plot that series arc. I know where I'm taking my readers. I know where we're going to end up, and for me, that's enough. If I have that, it keeps everything else in order if I have that overarching storyline.
Sarah MacLean 00:49:55 / #: And when you say where you're going to end up, is that as clear for you in terms of the couple that that book is going to be? Do you think about it from the character perspective too like there is a big book that we'll be moving toward?
Nalini Singh 00:50:13 / #: Sometimes. Sometimes. And then every so often, I get a bit of a shock because it doesn't quite work out how I think.
Sarah MacLean 00:50:21 / #: Yeah, same.
Nalini Singh 00:50:23 / #: So I leave that open. That's why people say, oh, is so-and-so going to get a book? Maybe. We'll see.
Jennifer Prokop 00:50:29 / #: Yeah. With you.
Nalini Singh 00:50:32 / #: Yeah, because there is growth in the series as well. I am not a person who has mapped up my character arcs five books a ahead. So every so often, someone comes along and is like, I'm really interesting, or there's something unusual happens. And so I like that. I like having the flexibility, but again, because I know the overall arc, it doesn't matter so much. I can let my characters grow naturally and just go with it. Because if a character is growing towards the main story arc, they're the one who's going to end up with the book. And if a character is growing away from the main story arc, they'll still be there in the series, but they might not end up as a main protagonist.
Jennifer Prokop 00:51:25 / #: So you go from paranormal to a rock band and rugby players, and Rock Hard is probably one of my favorite books of all time. I've read that book so many times. So what made you want to step away and do a contemporary series in the middle of all that?
Nalini Singh 00:51:50 / #: I think it was, again, that thing of needing a change for my brain, because at that point, I was writing two paranormal series, so the Guild Hunter Series is a little bit more urban fantasy, and then I've got my paranormal paranormal series, and I was like, I really need something different. And I do like to challenge myself as well just to see if I can do stuff. And quite often, I would just write it, I'll write the book and then give it to my agent is a whole thing. I don't advertise it. I don't tell anyone I'm doing it because I think it's good to just do stuff as a writer for myself and without any pressure. And if it doesn't work, then it's fine. Only I know about it.
00:52:39 / #: Yeah. But the funny thing with Rock Addiction, which started this contemporary books, is I actually started writing that years ago, years before it was published, but I just wasn't in the right head-space to do it. I feel like, I don't know, it just didn't feel right. And then one day, I was going through my works in progress and I was like, oh, I remember this one. And that day, I had it. It just worked. And so I ran with it and it didn't feel different or unusual to me because I did start with category romance, which is contemporary romance in a short format. So I just was able to move into contemporary romance in a longer format, which I think suits me better. I was never a very good category writer. Honestly, I could not sell hardly... I wrote Slave to Sensation because I was just enraged, [inaudible 00:53:35 / #] because I could not sell into category because it's the square box, round whole thing. I just didn't-
Jennifer Prokop 00:53:42 / #: It was the wrong distance for you, right?
Nalini Singh 00:53:44 / #: Yeah.
Jennifer Prokop 00:53:44 / #: Some people run a marathon, some people run a 10K.
Nalini Singh 00:53:49 / #: It was too long. I just like to write longer and stuff. Yeah, so, it just felt really natural to do contemporaries. And so the same with my thrillers that I write now, it's something different. So I have a bit of a break between the paranormals, which I love. I will always write speculative fiction in some way, I think, but it's really nice to do these other things as well. And I feel like I learn new writing techniques with each different thing I do.
Jennifer Prokop 00:54:25 / #: So what would you say are the hallmarks then, of a Nalini Singh book?
Nalini Singh 00:54:31 / #: So it took me a long time to figure this out. Some of my friends are like, oh yeah, this is my... Oh, they used a particular word. There's the fingerprint-
Jennifer Prokop 00:54:41 / #: Core story.
Sarah MacLean 00:54:42 / #: Core story.
Nalini Singh 00:54:42 / #: The core story, yeah. Yeah. And I was like, I don't know. It took me a long time and I realized it's the same thing I like to read is the same thing I write, which is I write families, so not just like blood related families. I write found families. I write friendships that are like family. I have the Arrow squad which is a lethal assassins, but they're all tightly bonded to each other. I have the brothers in the rugby series, [inaudible 00:55:18 / #]. I have the rock band and it's really, really rare for me to write books that are a couple in total isolation. I've realized I write community books, which is, there are links all over the place. People are connected. Probably one of the ones I've written where it is a very isolated story for the romance is Heart of Obsidian.
00:55:44 / #: Yeah. They are very much alone for a lot of their book, but the characters themselves are not alone. So Caleb, who is determined to walk alone and determined not to make any bonds, has somehow still managed to have two best friends.
Jennifer Prokop 00:55:59 / #: Him and his ravine.
Nalini Singh 00:56:01 / #: Him and his ravine. He just wants to be alone in there except for Zahara. And so I don't tend to write super isolated characters because I really love exploring all the bonds of relationships, the romance, of course, the love, but also, friendship, family, what does it mean? What does loyalty mean and what do people do for each other because of the love? Or not just even the positive emotions, but the negative ones as well. Because they're quite complex. People can make choices where you think that's a bad choice, but you can see why they made it. So I love all that stuff. I guess, how would you say it? All the rivers of the human heart. That's my core story is the community. Yeah.
Jennifer Prokop 00:57:03 / #: Well, to that end, what are the books that you hear the most from readers about? Is there a book that you just hear about all the time?
Nalini Singh 00:57:15 / #: Heart of Obsidian. Heart of Obsidian, yeah. It's from the Psy-Changeling series, and then from the Guild Hunter series, it's any of the Elena and Raphael books. Because I think with that series, it's unusual in the sense that it's a romance series, which is there together, but it's like an urban fantasy series, which is they keep coming back in the books. And so a lot of people, it's a long love story, and so people are excited to see them again, but of a single book that is probably Heart of Obsidian.
Jennifer Prokop 00:57:53 / #: I believe it. I feel like it's so hard when you are looking forward to a book for books and then to have it be even better than you thought it would be. Right.
Sarah MacLean 00:58:02 / #: What a gift.
Jennifer Prokop 00:58:03 / #: Yeah. Right? It's amazing. It's amazing. So Nalini, I know that this is an impossible question, right? Because we love all of our children equally, but is there a book that is really special to you for any reason? One that you're especially proud of or you had trouble leaving behind or whatever that means to you?
Nalini Singh 00:58:31 / #: So I think, okay, so I'm going to cheat and I'll say two because-
Jennifer Prokop 00:58:35 / #: Allowed. That's allowed.
Nalini Singh 00:58:37 / #: It's for very similar reasons. So Desert Warrior will always have a special place because it was my first published book. I have the poster on my wall, and I remember all the feelings of holding that book in my hand and feeling like, wow, I did it. This voice is out there in the world.
Jennifer Prokop 00:58:58 / #: Well, especially since you really walked the road for a long time for that.
Nalini Singh 00:59:04 / #: Yeah. I did it the hard way. And then for the same reason, Slave to Sensation, because Slave to Sensation really catapulted my career into just a whole different level. But I just remember writing that book just compulsively. The story was just in my head, and most of my first drafts are terrible. Nobody sees my first drafts, but this book, a lot of the first draft is in the book, the published book, because it was like the story had been growing and growing and growing in my head all these years, and then it was ready and I just had to type it out. Literally, that's all I did. I lived, breathed that book, and yeah, it is a seminal book in my career, and it is the place where people really heard my name.
01:00:02 / #: When it came out, a lot of people actually said, this is a debut, because they had never heard of me even though I had six other books. So it just is a whole... Yeah, those two books are really pivot points in my life, in my career. So yeah, they'll always have a special place. And the original purple cover of Place to Sensation just still makes my heart thud, because I remember looking at that cover, and I was in Japan at the time I was working in Japan, and the cover came through and I was like, oh... I had a quote by Christine Feehan on it.
Sarah MacLean 01:00:46 / #: Oh, which is so special.
Jennifer Prokop 01:00:47 / #: Oh, yeah.
Nalini Singh 01:00:49 / #: I know, I almost died when she gave me a quote because it was like, she read my book. I was just overwhelmed. And yeah, so two very special books. But it's true. We love all our books. I think every book is the favorite. That's why-
Jennifer Prokop 01:01:10 / #: Yeah, but there are some that are more special. They do feel special. Amazing. Well, thank you so much for being with us.
Sarah MacLean 01:01:21 / #: Yeah. This was a real joy. I'm so grateful.
Jennifer Prokop 01:01:24 / #: We're so grateful to have you.
Nalini Singh 01:01:26 / #: This is really fun. You two are so easy.
Sarah MacLean 01:01:31 / #: Thank you for your gorgeous books, and thank you for leaving such an indelible mark on the genre.
Nalini Singh 01:01:37 / #: Thank you. I'm still going. We'll see what's next.
Sarah MacLean 01:01:40 / #: Yes.
Jennifer Prokop 01:01:40 / #: Keep going.
Sarah MacLean 01:01:41 / #: Oh, no, absolutely.
Jennifer Prokop 01:01:41 / #: I think we are hungry for more, right? I open that newsletter every time it comes in, so, yeah. I'm here forever.
Nalini Singh 01:01:51 / #: Oh, yay. It makes me so happy.
Sarah MacLean 01:01:55 / #: She's great.
Jennifer Prokop 01:01:56 / #: She's great. I really was... The story about sending off manuscripts when she was a teenager is amazing.
Sarah MacLean 01:02:05 / #: What an amazing kid. She must have been. My God, when I was a teenager, I was no more prepared to do anything like that than I was to fly.
Jennifer Prokop 01:02:12 / #: I could barely write my college essays, everybody. So clearly that was not...
Sarah MacLean 01:02:15 / #: She's writing book after book after book, first of all, and a Broken Heart too.
Jennifer Prokop 01:02:24 / #: Honestly. Amazing.
Sarah MacLean 01:02:24 / #: The Greatest.
Jennifer Prokop 01:02:24 / #: The Greatest.
Sarah MacLean 01:02:26 / #: The Greatest.
Jennifer Prokop 01:02:26 / #: We're going to all be scouring KU for the next couple months, seeing if it'll pop up.
Sarah MacLean 01:02:31 / #: Yeah. No, but what a great story. Every single one of these authors has such a unique story, but it was really interesting to me because you caught it too, as she was talking about how being in New Zealand, she called the warehouse in New Zealand because what else do you do? And I was like, I think Mary Balogh told that same story.
Jennifer Prokop 01:02:54 / #: Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 01:02:56 / #: Mary Balogh also did not live in the United States, although I think at the time she lived in Saskatchewan. But it's just so interesting because you hear so many stories that is a real old-fashioned way of submitting a manuscript. Gone are the days when we wrapped up our paper and mailed it to God knows where in New York City.
Jennifer Prokop 01:03:25 / #: The thing that's amazing about it too is, her first book was published in 2003. We are not talking about that long ago. So it really is, when you think about it, when you live through a revolution, it just seems like that's how it happened, and it's no big deal. But when you think about the sea change in publishing. Like she said, there was no self-publishing. You had to go through a traditional publisher. There were only two places that would even consider you if you weren't in the US or the UK. It's almost impossible for us to imagine that now.
Sarah MacLean 01:04:02 / #: No, absolutely. Because now, the world is so small, but she kept... There were so many moments that felt that way to me when she talked about finding a community, which of course, at the time, in the early aughts, there wasn't a hugely vibrant online community of romance people that authors could go to and say, "How do I do this thing?" There was no place to ask questions. There was no hub. These women really were flying without a net.
Jennifer Prokop 01:04:32 / #: Yeah. The thing I kept thinking I should ask, and then she was just such an interesting speaker, I didn't really want to interrupt her necessarily in the things that she wanted to talk about, is, I do think one of the ways in which her books are singular is her ability to reboot a long series that is in progress. Right?
Sarah MacLean 01:04:57 / #: Well, she talked a little bit about that too, with Psy-Changeling and the way she thinks about it as seasons.
Jennifer Prokop 01:05:03 / #: Yes, right? Because many people have said you could start at Silver Silence, which is what I would assume would be the beginning of season two. And it's really interesting because I think that it's so smart for her to say, I took this vision from television seasons. Because if you are writing a long series, you have to provide those on ramps for people, right?
Sarah MacLean 01:05:27 / #: Well, there are movements. When we talked about IID in the first season of this podcast, we broke up the books in movements, and who knows whether or not Kresley Cole felt that those were the proper movements. But what I was getting at when I asked her could she speak a little more about characters and the way she thinks about prepping books or prepping a series for the long haul with characters. I think it's really interesting and it speaks to her obvious past with fantasy and sci-fi, that in her mind, it really is about the overarching world, that's whatever's happening outside of the characters themselves. Because you and I have talked about this so many times. We are obviously intimately familiar with a different paranormal series that is clearly moving toward a final book in the series that is a character book, not a plot.
Jennifer Prokop 01:06:29 / #: Right, not a plot. Yeah, exactly.
Sarah MacLean 01:06:32 / #: So I think it's a really interesting difference in the structure of the way you craft a series. I felt like this when we talked about Crest by Ice.
Jennifer Prokop 01:06:44 / #: Right.
Sarah MacLean 01:06:46 / #: The world building in Nalini Singh's books is just superior to most other paranormal romance series, I think. And that's not to diminish the world building of other series, but she's just superior.
Jennifer Prokop 01:07:02 / #: Yeah. Well, and I loved when she talked about essentially, I was going to do a little standalone and then then, oops, there are seven of them. What are you doing lady?
Sarah MacLean 01:07:14 / #: You grew up reading romance novels, you know the rules.
Jennifer Prokop 01:07:17 / #: You know how this works. Yeah. But I think the other thing that is also really interesting to me, and I think Nora Roberts is probably like this. I think Jane Anne Krentz is probably like this, is the people who are just, they're writing the books, but then there's all the other writing that they're doing. I think Christina of Christina Lauren is this, just writing all the time that writing is a reward. And I know for a lot of authors, writing really is work.
01:07:47 / #: And I think that the way that she has figured out a way to take those little vignettes and stories and just kernels of ideas and gift them to her readers is part of what makes, I think, it's just such a rich world. Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 01:08:06 / #: But don't you feel a little bit like this is particular to paranormal? You mentioned Christina, I think you mean Lauren from Christina and Lauren.
Jennifer Prokop 01:08:16 / #: I do mean Lauren. Yes. Sorry. I do mean Lauren.
Sarah MacLean 01:08:18 / #: So setting aside Lauren, who is a special case, I feel like every time we talk to a paranormal author-
Jennifer Prokop 01:08:27 / #: They're just always... Christine Feehan, certainly.
Sarah MacLean 01:08:29 / #: The world is enormous and expansive. And I'm always thinking about them. I think about J.R Ward saying, "I'm the scribe. They just tell me the story." And it sounds wacky when you think about it, when you're talking to one of these authors at a time. But now that we have the joy of the longevity of the series of the Trailblazers, I'm starting to really think like, oh no, this is like-
Jennifer Prokop 01:09:03 / #: Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 01:09:04 / #: This is paranormal.
Jennifer Prokop 01:09:07 / #: She mentioned Meljean Brook, who I have to say everybody, we talked about this when we did our Milla Vane episode, but Meljean Brooke is Milla Vane. And I want her to come on the podcast very badly so we can just grill her about Heart of Blood and Ashes. But also, that's another person who I think clearly is deeply invested in the world in a different way,
Sarah MacLean 01:09:31 / #: The world.
Jennifer Prokop 01:09:32 / #: Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 01:09:33 / #: And that's not to say that historical authors or contemporary authors aren't invested in the world, but its is different field. Or am I wrong?
Jennifer Prokop 01:09:42 / #: No, I think that's a really interesting observation. I think that there's just people who... I just was really fascinated by it. I really liked hearing her talk about how much joy she gets out of playing around in the parts of the world that are not going to be a whole book. But that doesn't mean-
Sarah MacLean 01:10:00 / #: Just writing a [inaudible 01:10:02 / #] and putting it out there. And there is a joy in receiving those as a reader when you're like... And I can understand her. I really appreciated her saying like, "Oh, I'm so glad. I'm so glad you enjoy them." Because I certainly have written a number of times, just a little tiny thing that's like, here's a little thing that the characters are still doing. And I think, is this navel-gazey? Is this just me satisfying my own desire to return to this world? Do readers really want this? So I don't know, that was very relatable content.
Jennifer Prokop 01:10:36 / #: Yeah. Well, and I think the other thing that is fascinating if you think about it is I don't think I'd put together the idea that the world is actually moving so slow. Right?
Sarah MacLean 01:10:48 / #: Oh, I know. I didn't realize that either.
Jennifer Prokop 01:10:50 / #: And I thought, that's wild.
Sarah MacLean 01:10:53 / #: So she has to put a character on ice for a while.
Jennifer Prokop 01:10:54 / #: Yeah, they're not ready. And I thought that was also really fascinating because of course, we're thinking in terms of it's been 20, however many books and she's like, it's been three years, everybody calmed down. Calm down.
Sarah MacLean 01:11:08 / #: I enjoyed hearing her talk about craft. I enjoyed hearing her talk about fan service and readers and talk about somebody who just obviously cares about the way the books are received. And of course, when we asked our question about how readers engage with the books, I loved that she was surprised too by this thing that I think we all, many of us were surprised by in the early aughts.
Jennifer Prokop 01:11:45 / #: I'm always really interested in the question about how readers respond in general. And we were looking at this before we started recording, right? Hunger Like No Other was the beginning of 2006. Slave to Sensation was the end of 2006. So it's like we saw the paranormal boom, just going and going.
Sarah MacLean 01:12:08 / #: The idea that by the end of 2006, Berkeley was like, "We're done with paranormal," and this was Kresley, J.R Ward, Nalini, there were so many huge series.
Jennifer Prokop 01:12:27 / #: And I'm sure they just thought that they were at capacity. How much of a market for this could there really be?
Sarah MacLean 01:12:36 / #: Well, and also, let's not forget, right? It's not quite the same as what's going on now in contemporary. Because when you acquire a paranormal series, you are acquiring a series. You're investing in however many of these books, obviously if it doesn't sell, you're not investing in that many. But the idea is this could become a thing. We could end up with two seasons, 20 books, however many things. Whereas right now, houses are buying one, maybe two books at a time.
Jennifer Prokop 01:13:13 / #: Right. Right. Right. So I think that part is really interesting. But I also found myself really thinking about what she said about starting in contemporary to get the romance beats down, but that her true love was always going to be in creating these big worlds, right?
Sarah MacLean 01:13:29 / #: Yeah. Obviously.
Jennifer Prokop 01:13:31 / #: I think that's obviously why I... And I think also though, I was really, look, when people talk about, she did not name names when she was talking about TV shows, that started with the great premise, but didn't have an ending in mind. But I always think of Lost. Right?
Sarah MacLean 01:13:45 / #: Lost.
Jennifer Prokop 01:13:45 / #: Exactly, I said it.
Sarah MacLean 01:13:46 / #: I was so mad.
Jennifer Prokop 01:13:47 / #: Right? And I just think it's a big reason I don't trust TV anymore, are shows like that. And so I think that to know that you're in... You know when you're reading one of Nalini's books, that you are in good hands.
Sarah MacLean 01:14:00 / #: It's tight. She knows exactly what she's doing.
Jennifer Prokop 01:14:04 / #: Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 01:14:04 / #: Yeah. And when I feel like there is a... Obviously, I want every book to feel that way, but that is a required quality for a paranormal. You have to know that it's going to hang together. My friend Carrie Ryan, who is a YA paranormal author or Y fantasy, she always used to say, the world building is where everybody gets caught up because you think to yourself, how does the magic work? What are the rules? And with Nalini, these characters, these identities have so many rules. Yeah.
Jennifer Prokop 01:14:48 / #: Well, and also she was like, listen, I don't have just one idea. I've got two. And they're in the place at the same time.
Sarah MacLean 01:14:55 / #: Yeah, exactly.
Jennifer Prokop 01:14:56 / #: And they've got this long history.
Sarah MacLean 01:14:58 / #: It's tremendous.
Jennifer Prokop 01:14:59 / #: Right? The books are amazing. And it didn't surprise me at all to hear her say that people, Heart of Obsidian is the book that really hits for people.
Sarah MacLean 01:15:08 / #: Well, because everyone was waiting for it.
Jennifer Prokop 01:15:09 / #: Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 01:15:10 / #: That's the [inaudible 01:15:11 / #].
Jennifer Prokop 01:15:12 / #: Right. Right. But sometimes that book doesn't deliver. But I think when it does, that's when you have people forever who are like, I can't wait to get to this book. And then it's so good.
Sarah MacLean 01:15:24 / #: Yeah. Absolutely. What I love is she was... I didn't know. I've never met Nalini. I had no idea. She was so young. And now I'm like, oh, great. We have decades more of Obsidians to come.
Jennifer Prokop 01:15:35 / #: Right? What a gift.
Sarah MacLean 01:15:36 / #: And I'm like right now thinking maybe I'll go reread that Rockstar series.
Jennifer Prokop 01:15:40 / #: Oh God, I love those books.
Sarah MacLean 01:15:42 / #: I know.
Jennifer Prokop 01:15:42 / #: I'm sorry, I had to ask about them. I really do.
Sarah MacLean 01:15:44 / #: No, of course. You asked about them. I wanted to know about them too. I'm particularly fond of the fact that you asked a reader fan.
Jennifer Prokop 01:15:52 / #: I know. Sorry. Well, this is everybody-
Sarah MacLean 01:15:55 / #: I'm afraid Poor Kelly is getting upset.
Jennifer Prokop 01:15:56 / #: My TFA friend, Kelly, I think she knew. I think she knew. She was like, I don't think anybody thinks it's really going to happen. But you know what? I wonder if her hearing the rationale-
Sarah MacLean 01:16:06 / #: She did give her a good reason.
Jennifer Prokop 01:16:09 / #: It was a good reason. It was a really good reason.
Sarah MacLean 01:16:11 / #: It's not like me when people ask me and I'm like, "No."
Jennifer Prokop 01:16:14 / #: You're just like, "No."
Sarah MacLean 01:16:14 / #: I don't want to do it.
Jennifer Prokop 01:16:17 / #: She's like, it's just not ready yet. She's still in the oven.
Sarah MacLean 01:16:19 / #: Maybe. Well, listen, Nalini Singh is going to be writing for another 20 years, everyone.
Jennifer Prokop 01:16:24 / #: So I think the thing about, like I said, I feel like there are authors who... She's just so good and every one of her books just sweeps you away, exactly. Right?
Sarah MacLean 01:16:37 / #: Yeah. And she seems to be able to do everything.
Jennifer Prokop 01:16:40 / #: Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 01:16:41 / #: Right?
Jennifer Prokop 01:16:42 / #: Right. Romance, thrillers, paranormal.
Sarah MacLean 01:16:45 / #: It's wild. I think some of us, we're just conditioned to do it more, better, different. And I think Nalini is one of them. She's one of those people who is just... We are lucky to be living at a time when she is writing.
Jennifer Prokop 01:17:05 / #: Absolutely.
Sarah MacLean 01:17:06 / #: Nalini's next book for everyone, it out in November. It is called, There Should Have Been Eight. And it is a thriller. Yeah.
Jennifer Prokop 01:17:17 / #: I haven't read her thrillers, so I haven't-
Sarah MacLean 01:17:18 / #: I haven't either.
Jennifer Prokop 01:17:19 / #: So this was going to be-
Sarah MacLean 01:17:19 / #: I'm going to go do that.
Jennifer Prokop 01:17:21 / #: I bet they're terrific.
Sarah MacLean 01:17:22 / #: Yeah. This one's set on a remote estate in the New Zealand Alps. And there are seven friends together. And it sounds like maybe there has at some point, been a murder. I love it. I love it. I'm into it.
Jennifer Prokop 01:17:42 / #: Her books are real comfort reads for me. I've reread Cross by Ice, which we read. I've read a couple times. I've read My favorite, I think it's Rock Hard. I can't, titles, a couple times. I love that book. What a delight.
Sarah MacLean 01:17:56 / #: Yeah. And those rugby books are great. Very fun. For those of you looking for just a great sports romance, she can do it all.
Jennifer Prokop 01:18:06 / #: Well, we are lucky to have her.
Sarah MacLean 01:18:09 / #: We are. We are.
Jennifer Prokop 01:18:10 / #: A treasure.
Sarah MacLean 01:18:11 / #: So, thank you so much to Nalini again for making time for us today. It was a real treat to have her. I am Sarah McLean. I'm here with my friend Jen Prokop. We are together, Fated Mates, and you can find us online at fatedmates.net on Twitter, at FatedMates, on Instagram at FatedMatesPod. And if you super-duper love hanging out with us and you just wish we were more in your ear holes, head over to Patreon and join our Patreon where you have access to our private Discord, where tons of Magnificent Firebirds discuss new episodes weekly and everything else, hourly, minutely, secondly, and you can find information on that at fatedmates.net/patreon. Thanks so much everyone.
S05.30: Christine Feehan: Trailblazer
This week, we’re sharing our fantastic conversation with trailblazer Christine Feehan, an undeniable force in the rise of paranormal romance in the early 2000s. We discuss the genesis of her work, the way she builds her far-reaching worlds, her relationship to readers, her heroes, her sex scenes, and the long and winding path of her career.
Our conversation covers a lot of ground—personal, professional, paranormal and powerful, and we’re so grateful to Christine Feehan for making time for Fated Mates. You’re going to love this one, Firebirds.
Next week, our first read along of 2023 is Tracy MacNish’s Stealing Midnight—we’ve heard the calls from our gothic romance readers and we’re delivering with this truly bananas story, in which the hero is dug out of a grave and delivered, barely alive, to the heroine. Get ready. You can find Stealing Midnight (for $1.99!) at Amazon, B&N, Kobo, or Apple Books.
Show Notes
Welcome to Christine Feehan, author of almost 100 romance novels. Her next book, Ghostly Game, is part of the Ghostwalker series and will be released May 2, 2023.
PEOPLE : editor Alicia Condon at Dorchester and now Kensington, and editor Cindy Hwang at Berkley.
BOOKS: Freckles and The Harvester by Gene Stratton Porter, Louisa May Alcott, The Bourne Identity by Robert Ludlum, Mary Janice Davidson, Gift of Fire and Gift of Gold by Jayne Ann Krentz, The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes, The Beekeeper’s Apprentice by Laurie R. King.
Books Mentioned This Episode
Sponsors
Goldie Thomas, author of The Rake and the Fake
Available now from Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Kobo, or Apple Books
and
Lumi Labs, creators of Microdose Gummies
Visit microdose.com and use the code FATEDMATES
for 30% off and free shipping on your order.
Christine Feehan 00:00:00 / #:
I'm not somebody who will ever cut and paste a love scene. It's a different couple and so, they react differently to each other and to whatever situation is going on. And I don't get embarrassed. It's just part of life, and I put that in. And part of the reason for that, and I know this is going to sound crazy, but so many girls that had had these terrible things happen to them would be very promiscuous, but they never felt anything. And I would say it's because you don't have a good partner. You're not in love with your partner. He's not doing anything for you, so I wanted them to know what good sex was. And writers should realize that the words they put down touch people. And you don't know who you're going to touch and you don't know what you say, what it's going to do to somebody.
Jennifer Prokop 00:01:11 / #:
That was the voice of Christine Feehan, paranormal author, extraordinaire, author of over 100 books and just a superstar of the genre and has been for decades.
Sarah MacLean 00:01:26 / #:
Her first book, Dark Prince, came out in 1999, right at the very beginning of the paranormal boom that we talk about. So, we talk to Christine about her life, how she came to romance, how she came to writing paranormals, and how she continues to write in this subgenre that we all love and wish there was more of.
Jennifer Prokop 00:01:50 / #:
Welcome to Fated Mates, everyone. I'm Jennifer Prokop, a romance reader and editor.
Sarah MacLean 00:01:55 / #:
And I'm Sarah MacLean. I read romance novels and I write them.
Jennifer Prokop 00:02:00 / #:
And without further ado, here's our conversation with Christine Feehan.
Sarah MacLean 00:02:06 / #:
Perfect. So thank you so much, Christine, for joining us. We're very excited, in large, part because it feels like you really came to romance in an interesting time and place and way. And so, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about how you found romance as a reader and then, again as a writer, or was it simultaneous?
Christine Feehan 00:02:32 / #:
Actually, it wasn't simultaneous at all. I started reading when I was very, very young, at a very young age and started writing when I was very young. The minute I could put sentences together, I started making up stories and I would write them down the minute I could, when I could put sentences together. And I think the first time I ever read a romance, I found these old, old books by Gene Stratton Porter, The Harvester and Freckles and those. And I realized there was kind of this romance thing going, and I found it really intriguing. I was probably 10 or even younger. I read books way over my head-
Sarah MacLean 00:03:32 / #:
Us too.
Jennifer Prokop 00:03:32 / #:
Us too. No problem.
Sarah MacLean 00:03:32 / #:
One of us.
Christine Feehan 00:03:37 / #:
And then, I started looking for anything I could read that might have some sort of a connection between a girl and a guy, because I wanted a happy ending or a happy anything involved in it. And so, that sort of started me down that path of looking for something happy in the book all the time, so that was sort of my intro to romance. And I found Louise May Alcott, of course, and read everything that she wrote, and I would read that to my grandmother whenever she was ill. I would sit and read to her, and then later, different ones that kind of inspired me for different reasons. Actually, The Bourne Identity, I liked the fact that they worked together. They were equal partners. People I think mostly saw the movie. They didn't really read that book the way it should have been read, but without her, he wouldn't have made it. She really was his equal partner in that book and I loved that. I really read that a couple of times to see how he made that happen and I really liked that. That was one of them.
Sarah MacLean 00:05:12 / #:
That doesn't surprise me at all, that the Bourne Identity is a text for you. I mean, it makes perfect sense now as a Feehan reader.
Christine Feehan 00:05:22 / #:
Yeah. And then, one really made an impact on me, probably that opened up the whole paranormal world for me, and I read it very early on was a Gift of Fire and Gift of Gold by Jayne Ann Krentz. And I forget how old I was when I read that, but all of a sudden, it was like it opened this whole world to me and I thought, "This is really what I want to write." Plus, I realized that my hero could be flawed and my villain could... I really like that the villain was rounded out so much.
00:06:11 / #:
And so, I started studying villains to figure them out. How did they write these villains and how did they become... You liked them and you didn't like... I mean, there were good things about them as well as bad things. How did they get to be who they were? So, I think they all had such an impact on me. One of the biggest impacts on me for all of my writing was Sherlock Holmes. I read Sherlock Holmes so many times that I literally could quote pages of Sherlock Holmes, of his work. And then, another writer was Laurie R. King, the Beekeeper's Apprentice. I thought that was such a fabulous take on... What she did, you would never expect her to put heroin with him and how she managed to make that work. That was an interesting pairing for me.
Sarah MacLean 00:07:24 / #:
So, at what point during this kind of reading, obviously, you've been an avid reader forever, did you start thinking, "I think I can maybe do this?"
Christine Feehan 00:07:36 / #:
I never did. I always wrote. I always wrote. I had hundreds of manuscripts under my bed. I'd write them and throw them, write them and throw them. I just wrote all the time. It was sort of a compulsion for me. I could not write, I had to write. I had so many stories in my head, I did not think about publishing them. Other people had movie stars and rock stars that they would scream and yell and, "Oh, my God. They're so wonderful. No, for me, it was writers. And so, I never looked at myself and thought I could ever be a writer like they could be, because I kind of worshiped those writers. They were amazing. My first job was in a library, and I would just read every book that I could in that library.
Jennifer Prokop 00:08:28 / #:
Living the dream. Well, it's, the other thing that's interesting though about that kind of list of books you named is I think one of the hallmarks of your style is an interest in the paranormal, but not necessarily... Even though the Carpathian series is very much about vampires, but like Jayne Ann Krentz, actually. Like telepathy and what the brain is capable of, so has that also always been interesting to you?
Christine Feehan 00:08:59 / #:
Absolutely. I research so much, and my belief really, is even with vampires, if you look at every society all over the world, you look at what their beliefs are going back hundreds of years, and all of them have something like that in their background. And where does it come from? You have to start thinking if every culture has something like that in it, where does it come from? And if every country pretty much has done these experiments with telepathy and with all these other things, why are they doing them? And after a while, you start getting these answers. You start hitting on things that, "Oh, this did work for somebody. This did work here. This did work there." And after so much research, you're catching up with the future things that they're already doing. Like my Ghost Walker series, I have a hard time keeping ahead of the game, and I research very hard to do that. And I always have primary sources, but it looks, when you write it, like it's way out there, but it isn't.
Sarah MacLean 00:10:29 / #:
Publishing wasn't even on the horizon, it sounds like. And I've done my research, I know you have a large family. So, can you give us a sense of Christine's world, at this point? How does it all fit together?
Christine Feehan 00:10:42 / #:
I taught martial arts for years and women's self-defense. Well, not just women's, I mean, I taught men too, but that was my world. I surrounded myself with that 26, 27 years of that. And I took in a lot of abused children, which you can see in my books and worked with unwed mothers and I had a complete whirl there. Writing was my escape, and when I took my kids to their gymnastics and their sports, I lived out in the country. I lived way out, away from things. So, I had to drive them and I would sit at their practices and write. That's what I did.
Sarah MacLean 00:11:40 / #:
Anybody with kids in sports has done exactly this.
Christine Feehan 00:11:43 / #:
Yeah. I didn't own a computer, I didn't own a laptop. There was no R.W.A., there was none of that. I didn't even know about R.W.A., I just wrote my stories and I did them for me. That was my escape. That was the one thing that I did for myself. And if the kids watched television at night, that's what I did, is I wrote. I wasn't interested in television. We played Dungeons and Dragons, and I told stories to the kids. That was our pastime and our fun together.
Sarah MacLean 00:12:26 / #:
So, at what point did it become... How did it happen? I mean, how did you become Christine Feehan published author?
Christine Feehan 00:12:36 / #:
The thing was that there came a time when I became very ill and my doctor said to me, "You cannot do martial arts anymore." And unfortunately, children want food.
Sarah MacLean 00:12:56 / #:
They do. Generally.
Christine Feehan 00:12:58 / #:
I convinced the, especially the boys, that they did not need to eat and the girls still wanted clothes. So, I had to find a way to feed them and to keep clothes on their back and to pay the bills. And I was working a couple of jobs, but it was minimum wage, and I was like, "Okay, this is not going to work." And my girlfriend said to me, "Send one of your books in." And I said, "It doesn't work like that." One, it was kind of terrifying. I didn't think I really wanted to send... The thought of giving away one of my stories was not a good idea to me, and I also told her they aren't taking anything with vampires in it. And at that point, I had been writing my Carpathian stories.
Sarah MacLean 00:13:56 / #:
That's so true. A paranormal was unsellable, we were told, in the nineties. And so, I guess I have two questions. One is, was it just that you thought, "I'm writing vampires and I'm not reading vampires? There are no vampires to be read. There was Anne Rice and now there is no one else?" Or did somebody tell you, "Oh, you can't sell vampires?"
Christine Feehan 00:14:23 / #:
Yes. I was told that... My friend, a girl girlfriend of mine was writing to sell, and she wanted to go to this thing in San Francisco that later I found out was an R.W.A.
Sarah MacLean 00:14:41 / #:
Sure.
Jennifer Prokop 00:14:42 / #:
Oh, Okay.
Christine Feehan 00:14:44 / #:
Which I didn't know. And she didn't want to go alone, so she asked me to go with her. And I said sure. And there were all these people in there, and I was a little embarrassed because they would say things like, "Well, I've been working on my office for four months, no book." And then somebody else said, "I've been working on my book for 14 years, and I've been working on my book for... I don't know how many..."
Sarah MacLean 00:15:12 / #:
God, this is the entire experience of R.W.A., honestly.
Christine Feehan 00:15:16 / #:
And this went on and on. And then, they get to me and I'm like, "I don't know. I have 300 manuscripts [inaudible 00:15:24 / #]." And a woman who was running the whole thing, later, she came up to me and she's like, "You need an agent." And I, at that time, was not interested in selling and I told her that. And I said, "Well, the latest thing I'm writing are..." She asked me what I was writing and I said romance. And I said, "But they have vampires in them." And she goes, "Oh, those aren't selling. You can't get an editor to even look at them."
Sarah MacLean 00:16:04 / #:
This week's episode of Fated Mates is sponsored by Goldie Thomas, author of the Rake and the Fake.
Jennifer Prokop 00:16:10 / #:
Sarah, this is a historical romance and it's a debut and the first in The Husband material series. This is a book that's really going to appeal to all of our listeners who love Tessa Dare and Joanna Shupe. And so, we have Charlotte, a seamstress employed at London's most renowned [inaudible 00:16:28 / #], and she is very aware of the class differences between her and the people that come in and partake of her services. And she runs a foul of Nicholas, a charming but badly behaved viscount, and his parents are insisting that he marry as soon as possible. After a maiden Manhattan mix up Nicholas's mother mistakes Charlotte, for this woman who she thinks Nicholas should marry, and there's just all of these shenanigans that happen. This book really deals with big class issues head on. And so, Charlotte, rather than being enamored with the excessive wealth that she is now seeing in real life is, instead like, "Wait, we really need to fix this." So Nicholas, Charlotte have to really figure out how they can be together given this huge difference between them.
Sarah MacLean 00:17:24 / #:
First of all, this sounds like a terrific read. I love it when historical romances really tackle class differences. And you can read The Rake and the Fake by Goldie Thomas right now in print or ebook, wherever you get your books. Thanks as always to Goldie Thomas for sponsoring the episode. Are the 300 manuscripts under your bed also paranormal adjacent?
Christine Feehan 00:17:53 / #:
No. They weren't at that time. No.
Sarah MacLean 00:17:56 / #:
So, how did we get to dark prints?
Christine Feehan 00:17:59 / #:
Well, at that time, I had quite a few children. My oldest son was in the Navy, and he came home to visit. I had two daughters who were pregnant, and he was helping out, building a little apartment for one of them. And he came home. He was with a friend, and he came home for lunch. He had a motorcycle, and I made him lunch and we were laughing and talking, and he went out the door and I said, "Did you put on sunscreen?" And he said, "Oh, mom, you're going to be saying that to me when I'm 90." And I laughed and said, "You bet I will." And he walked out the door, and five minutes later, maybe it was five minutes later, no more than that, the phone rang and my future son-in-law gets this call. He was on for if there was an accident. And his brother called him and said, "We've got a call. I'm coming to pick you up." And then, the neighbor called me and said, "I think your son was hit." And I said, "That's impossible."
00:19:26 / #:
But it was him and he didn't make it. And one of my daughters was... Both of them were due, and there was a birthday party I'd been planning the next day for my youngest child and a wedding I was planning. And it's a very interesting thing when you lose a child, and this is for any trauma that people suffer, life goes on all around you, it just keeps going. There's no way to stop it. You can't put the brakes on, and I had to keep planning a wedding. I had to keep two girls who were giving birth. I had a very small child who expected to have a birthday, and I didn't feel anything. I couldn't remember people talking to me, conversations.
00:20:45 / #:
And it lasted forever. It went on forever. I mean, I did everything I was supposed to do. I went to my kids' schools, I participated in everything that I was supposed to do, but I didn't feel anything. And it went on for so long and I thought, "I have to find a way back." And we always played Dungeons and Dragons together, and I always talked to him about vampires, made-up stories. And one of the things we talked about was, why would somebody want to give up your soul? And the more I thought about it, the more I thought, "If you have no feelings, if you can't feel anything and nothing can touch you..." And I honestly felt like I couldn't see in color anymore. Everything felt so dull. And I thought, "I have to find a way back to the people I love."
00:21:54 / #:
And that's when I started writing dark prints, and I started coming up with this idea that these men had to find that person that could make them feel again and see in color again. And that was my way back to... You never get over it. There's no way to get over it. But I've spoken to many, many people who've had many losses or had much trauma, and everybody has their own way of dealing with it. And that was mine. We shared something, it was Calvert's and I, we shared that. And my youngest son... He's not my youngest, but Brian, he always played Dungeon Masters with a Dragon. Anyway, he played with us and we would talk a lot about it together and eventually, it really helped me. And so, developing that world became very therapeutic for me. And so, that's how that world came about. And it's surprising when people read it. Some people have that, it has that same effect on them. They feel that same way, which I find interesting, that some people get it this, that have suffered loss, where other people have no idea.
Sarah MacLean 00:23:44 / #:
Yeah, but I imagine when a book comes like that and from such a place, it's impossible to imagine. First of all, it's all packed in there because when you write, that's how it goes, whatever you're living is in there. But also, I'm so moved by this story because the Carpathians are... That series is never-ending, right? It's 38 books now. And so, do you feel like every time you go back to them, that you're going back to a similar place you're mining that same love, that same world?
Christine Feehan 00:24:28 / #:
Sure. It's funny how grief will hit you at times, where it comes out nowhere. I mean, it's been a long time for my son. I've lost a granddaughter, I've lost a grandson and all of that is very difficult. You try very hard to, I don't know how to explain it, keep going as the world keeps going. But anybody who's lost parents, anybody, at times it just suddenly comes out of nowhere, and you don't know when it's going to happen.
00:25:23 / #:
But when I write, I can feel that connection, especially in the Carpathian world with Calvert, and it makes me feel very close to him again. And also, there's so many issues in those books, women's issues, miscarriages that women have. And over the years, with so many different friends and so many different young women that have had terrible things happen to them that I've dealt with through martial arts or through other things, I've been able to talk about those things. And then, had women be able to read about them, and then that helps them in their lives. So, I've been grateful to be able to have that opportunity when I no longer can do hands-on help.
Jennifer Prokop 00:26:32 / #:
So it's interesting to me too... Probably one of my favorite of your series is Torpedo Ink, and those are characters that are really steeped in trauma. And I mean, that's another thing that sort of ties your books together. People experience terrible loss or grief or trauma, and then this connection is like, how do they survive? Especially can they, through this, access almost parts of themselves, they didn't know that existed. So, when you talk about readers contacting you, is this something that... Like they write you letters, you get emails, how do you connect with readers who are also experiencing this world? Like the emotional... Your worlds are kind of terrible worlds, but people find each other in them. So, how do your readers come to you?
Christine Feehan 00:27:38 / #:
Well, okay, Torpedo Ink is actually my most difficult series to write. When I took in children, I found that boys were treated way differently than girls. When they're molested, they oftentimes are not given counseling. Sometimes they're rejected from their family. The fathers don't want them, and they often are like, especially if they're a little bit older, it's like, "Oh, hey, you should be happy," instead of... It's traumatizing for them, but nobody wants to even talk about it with a boy. And so, I promised myself that someday I was going to address that issue. And I didn't honestly realize when I started looking at files, what I was really getting myself into. Because you have to talk with professionals and you're looking at some file and you're reading this horrible thing that you don't even want to look at anymore. And then, you talk to a professional and you say, "All right, this happened to them.
00:28:59 / #:
What's going to happen to them as an adult?" And he's like, "Oh, he's not going to be normal. His sexual life is not going to be normal." So now, you're going to have to write about this and try to find a happy ending for him. Because to me, I want to make whoever's had anything close to that experience feel hope. That's what you're trying to do, is say, "There's hope for you. Don't give up." And most of the time I get letters. There's been a few times when somebody has come personally to me, when I'm at a convention or something, they've asked to meet with me, and I've talked to them. Most of the time it's a letter and 99% of the time, and it will start out, "Please continue to read this, but I was going to kill myself. And then, I read this book." And oftentimes, especially Torpedo Ink, I think, "I can't write another one of these. I just can't do it." And then, I don't know why I get a letter like that, and I think, "Oh, my God, Christine, now you're going to have to write..."
Jennifer Prokop 00:30:22 / #:
Keep doing it.
Christine Feehan 00:30:23 / #:
"Now you're going to have to write another one." And it's interesting because not everyone gets that those books are about trauma. They don't see it. They don't. And that's always interesting to me, that not everyone gets what the book is actually about. I try to put on there to be careful about reading it. There's triggers for people... But people sometimes just don't see that.
Sarah MacLean 00:30:55 / #:
One of the things that I keep coming back to as you're talking is Jen and I talk a lot on the podcast about how we bemoan the way paranormal has faded over the last decade. And one of the reasons why is because it feels like there seems to be so much more anger and confusion and frustration, and all the things that are happening in the world right now. Paranormal, in so many ways, makes us look at those traumatic or those dangerous or angry or wicked things and face them.
00:31:41 / #:
You said this is about hope, and we always talk about romance as the literature of hope. That is the promise. So, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about, as somebody who we really do think is without you, paranormal would not be here in the way that it is. How does paranormal... How did coming to paranormal and writing paranormal and building the sub-genre happen during that time? I mean, obviously, you told the remarkable story about how the Carpathians came to be, but you've never gone away. You've never left that paranormal world. Even when you do leave it, there's always a vibe, right?
Christine Feehan 00:32:29 / #:
Yeah. Well, because for me, I know that other people don't really believe so much in all those things, but I think the world is so big and there's so many interesting unsolved mysteries in it, and I can't stop doing research. I'm like the research nut, and I find everything so fascinating. And I don't necessarily... I know we use the word paranormal, but I always think there's so much out there. And so, to me, I just think maybe it's really all true, and we haven't caught up with it yet. So, to me, it's just extending my imagination and then, trying to find reality in it. And I try to put the book at least 80% facts. I mean, twisting those facts into my fictional world. And then, just a small amount of the paranormal so that when people read it, they're like, "Oh, this could happen. This could be." When I did Lightning Game, most of that was reality. I mean, it's amazing what they're doing with lightning, and you look at it and go, "Holy moly."
Sarah MacLean 00:34:07 / #:
So, could you talk a little bit about that paranormal? I mean, I'm using paranormal now, respecting what you just said, but at paranormal as a subgenre of romance. During that boom, where it just felt... I mean, it just felt like everyone was writing these kind of big, expansive worlds with these heroes who were just larger than life and these heroines who just could match them step for step. What was going on there? Are you able to look back on that time and go, "Oh, this is why we were all doing this thing together." Or, "This was why readers were really drawn to us?"
Christine Feehan 00:34:59 / #:
I think that different times call for different things. People are, at times, they need certain things in their lives, and they're looking for heroes and they're looking for things that make them happy. Unfortunately, I don't honestly know what's happening right now, where everybody seems so angry and weird with each other. It's so strange to me. I don't understand that, but I'm getting kind of old. But I think everybody's imagination was really big and everybody at that time really accepted it. And they went all out and readers were like, "Hey, what do you have for me? I'm willing to read it." And they went for it. So, I think that was a really good time, and people were in a good place. And as things started to crumble, the economy and whatever, then I think that things sort of went downhill. And also, when you get too many people doing the same thing, it runs out. You can only do so many of the same types, and then it gets... There's a lot of repetition. And maybe towards the end, there might have been, I don't know.
Sarah MacLean 00:36:50 / #:
Were there other writers who you were friendly with, who you were in your group, were inspiring you during that time?
Christine Feehan 00:37:02 / #:
Not in my group. I had a very core group, but I will tell you, I read Mary Janice Davidson, and she made me laugh so hard. I am not the best at writing humor. When I read her, I would laugh so hard and I would just about die. She made me laugh so much. There were certain ones that you'd pick them up and to be honest, I didn't read much in my own genre because I didn't want to step on somebody's voice, but I couldn't help it with her. Every time she had a book come out, I'd go get it, because she just was so funny. But like I say, I don't write very humorously, and I try, but my humor falls flat.
Jennifer Prokop 00:38:01 / #:
So, did you join R.W.A., you mentioned, sort of not knowing what it was? Was that something that-
Christine Feehan 00:38:09 / #:
I had to, at one point, because my house... I was with Dorchester at the time when I first... They were the only ones who would read my book and then they bought it.
Sarah MacLean 00:38:19 / #:
Who was your editor there?
Christine Feehan 00:38:21 / #:
Alicia Condon. Alicia Condon. Okay. Okay. And she was wonderful. She was.
Sarah MacLean 00:38:26 / #:
And she acquired you at Dorchester?
Christine Feehan 00:38:28 / #:
She did, yes. And people always said things about Dorchester, but they gave new authors a chance when nobody else would.
Sarah MacLean 00:38:37 / #:
And took such risk in terms of the content of the books. I mean, I was saying to Jen before we started that one of my very favorite... I write historicals, and one of my very favorite historicals is The Madness of Lord Ian Mackenzie, which, the hero... It's such a different kind of historical, and I just can't... I think it benefited from Dorchester.
Christine Feehan 00:39:03 / #:
I think that they did a really good job at getting people seen when nobody else would even look at them. Not one other house would've... Well, they wouldn't...
Sarah MacLean 00:39:17 / #:
Sure. Vampires, right?
Christine Feehan 00:39:19 / #:
Right, they wouldn't look at it. And she did, and she picked it up, so that was pretty amazing of her to do that.
Sarah MacLean 00:39:29 / #:
And then, you were with Dorchester until Dorchester folded?
Christine Feehan 00:39:34 / #:
I was already being looked at by Berkley. Cindy Wong had already made an offer for me, and I've been with her ever since. She's been my editor for years and years and years. So yeah, I was already with Berkley at that point, but they had a bunch of my books still.
Sarah MacLean 00:39:58 / #:
Because you're such a fast writer. Now, were you build... Now, how was that working? Were you pulling things out from under the bed or...
Christine Feehan 00:40:06 / #:
No, no.
Sarah MacLean 00:40:07 / #:
The bad manuscripts are still under the bed.
Christine Feehan 00:40:09 / #:
No, because the ones under the bed were not polished and they weren't that good.
Sarah MacLean 00:40:15 / #:
I don't believe it, but okay.
Christine Feehan 00:40:16 / #:
No, they're not that good.
Sarah MacLean 00:40:20 / #:
So, because you're so prolific as well, what is it? Almost a hundred books, is that right?
Christine Feehan 00:40:27 / #:
Yes, very close to a hundred books.
Sarah MacLean 00:40:30 / #:
And so, you are really... I mean, you still writing really quickly. You're writing at a self-published pace.
Christine Feehan 00:40:39 / #:
I actually am slowing down a little bit so I can go visit occasionally. Go see my mom, and not my mom, my sisters, occasionally. I have a lot of sisters.
Sarah MacLean 00:40:53 / #:
And do you feel like... You have a big fam... You have a large number of children, a lot of sisters. Do you feel like that those kinds of relationships are part of why you have been drawn so much to Pax? I mean, big communities of characters.
Christine Feehan 00:41:13 / #:
Yeah, I've always loved being in a big family.
Jennifer Prokop 00:41:18 / #:
This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by Lumi Labs, creators of microdose gummies.
Sarah MacLean 00:41:24 / #:
So Lumi Labs, our old friends, you've heard us talk about microdosing and the concept of microdosing before on the podcast. It's commonly associated with psychedelics, with wellness, performance enhancement and creativity. If you're looking to consider microdosing, you can do a quick Google search or you can go to microdose.com and learn more about how taking a microdose gummy might help you just with a little bit of mood enhancement with maybe helping you sleep, which is what they do for me.
Jennifer Prokop 00:41:57 / #:
For me too.
Sarah MacLean 00:41:58 / #:
Pain, anxiety. Eric takes them for creativity and a general kind of joyfulness across the day. He said to me the other day, "You know what the thing is about these gummies? You take one and you just like, an hour and a half later, just feel like, "I feel like I'm in a good mood."
Jennifer Prokop 00:42:17 / #:
Yes. And listen, we all need that these days. If they didn't put me to sleep, they would definitely help me feel like I was in a good mood. Anyway, microdosing is available nationwide, and we have all tried these gummies, and we think you might enjoy them too, if they're something you're interested in.
Sarah MacLean 00:42:37 / #:
So, you can go to microdose.com and use the code Fated Mates to get 30% on your first order. They have all different kinds of flavors you can try. I'm a particular fan of cotton candy. Lately, I also like one that's orange flavored, so you should try, check it out, give it a try. And thanks, as always, to Lumi Labs for sponsoring this week's episode. Another interesting hallmark of your career is that you have several, very long-running series that you're essentially writing concurrently. And so, this is unusual. A lot of people will start and finish a series and you have a bunch that just are kind of continuing. So, what's your process for deciding what's next, keeping it all straight? That seems like a huge job.
Christine Feehan 00:43:40 / #:
It's very strange, my brain, how it works. A character will come to me and say, "I want my story told." And I can't write... I couldn't write two Carpathian stories in a row because I'd be bored with that world. So, I write that story and then, while I'm writing that story, all of a sudden, another character from another world will jump into my head and start pushing at me. And I have tell it to be quiet. Like, "It's not your turn yet. Wait till I'm finished." And then, that one will will... A lot of times now, because I'll have a contract and they'll want the stories in a certain order order. And so, I had to train my brain to say, "It's going to be like this." And if they mess up the order on me, it's actually difficult now, because my brain would be like, "We have to do it this way."
Jennifer Prokop 00:44:48 / #:
I'm not going to get the titles right, but the head of Torpedo Ink was the husband of the end of the series with all the sisters?
Christine Feehan 00:45:00 / #:
Right, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Prokop 00:45:00 / #:
So, when characters intersect in that way, is that a surprise to you?
Christine Feehan 00:45:07 / #:
Because I wasn't planning on publishing Torpedo Ink. I wasn't going to. And when I had that in there, Cindy said to me, "Do you have these other characters..."
Sarah MacLean 00:45:21 / #:
We have this guy.
Christine Feehan 00:45:23 / #:
And I said, "Well, yeah, but I don't think they're something that I could publish because it's a pretty raw, edgy series." And she said, "Well, let me read it." And that's kind of how that ended up getting published.
Sarah MacLean 00:45:40 / #:
We've had several people on who are edited by Cindy, and it sounds like she is one of those editors who is willing to just again, take the risk with you and trust you to move forward.
Christine Feehan 00:45:55 / #:
She will take a risk. Yeah, she will. She's not-
Sarah MacLean 00:45:56 / #:
That's amazing.
Christine Feehan 00:45:57 / #:
She's pretty fearless, and she's not afraid. If I went to her and said, "I'd like to publish this." And it's like out there, she would say, "Go ahead and write it. Let's take a look at it."
Jennifer Prokop 00:46:14 / #:
Have there been other editors, publishers, I don't know, art directors?
Sarah MacLean 00:46:21 / #:
Oh, wait, can we talk about those early covers, first of all?
Jennifer Prokop 00:46:24 / #:
Oh, yeah.
Sarah MacLean 00:46:25 / #:
So, I'm so fascinated but... Listen, I could talk about romance novel covers all day every day. In fact, Jen will tell you, I kind of do, but those early covers, so that first cover of Dark Prints is a clinch. It's like a historical clinch, presumably because no one knew what the heck to do with these books, right?
Christine Feehan 00:46:45 / #:
Right.
Sarah MacLean 00:46:45 / #:
And then, can you walk us through... Are you able to remember or recall how paranormal became... How it started to look the way it did? Why we moved away from those clinches?
Christine Feehan 00:47:01 / #:
Well, there were funny, funny things that happened with some of them.
Sarah MacLean 00:47:05 / #:
I love it.
Christine Feehan 00:47:07 / #:
It was Jacque's book and they put him on the cover, and I said, "Well, this cover his spine." Except that he had, or she had red hair. It was a clinch cover, so they washed the cover red.
Sarah MacLean 00:47:32 / #:
Oh, my gosh. The whole cover?
Christine Feehan 00:47:34 / #:
The whole cover. So he is like sunburned. I called him Lobster Boy after that.
Sarah MacLean 00:47:41 / #:
What book is this?
Christine Feehan 00:47:44 / #:
It was Dark Desire.
Sarah MacLean 00:47:45 / #:
I'm looking it up right now.
Christine Feehan 00:47:48 / #:
So, he literally has... He's red and so-
Sarah MacLean 00:47:53 / #:
I think I know what this is.
Christine Feehan 00:47:55 / #:
I did. I called him Lobster Boy. So, every time anybody would refer to him, I would think, in my head, I'd turn it around and he'd be Lobster Boy.
Sarah MacLean 00:48:03 / #:
Oh, no.
Christine Feehan 00:48:06 / #:
And my girlfriend, one of my friends, she just loved him. She called him Pooky face. She'd be like, "Don't you call my-"
Sarah MacLean 00:48:14 / #:
He's orange.
Christine Feehan 00:48:16 / #:
Yes. He is.
Sarah MacLean 00:48:19 / #:
Everybody look down in your podcast right now. We'll show it to you. Yeah, he's orange.
Christine Feehan 00:48:24 / #:
Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 00:48:26 / #:
How funny.
Christine Feehan 00:48:27 / #:
Yeah. And here's the other thing that happened with that book. This is just a little... So, it starts off with, there was blood in the River of It Running or something, the first sentence. And I had worked on that first chapter a million ways, and he's insane. I mean, when he comes awake, he's totally insane. And if you don't know what happened to him, you would hate that guy because he's an ass. So, you have to start out with him and knowing what happened to him. And I think I wrote that first chapter 40 Different Ways. Well, when they got the book, they're like, "We have to change this first chapter because they have to know that it's a romance, and you can't start out this way." I'm like, "No, I'm not changing it."
Sarah MacLean 00:49:25 / #:
How funny.
Christine Feehan 00:49:27 / #:
I go, "Toss the book." "We're not tossing the book."
Sarah MacLean 00:49:36 / #:
Amazing. No. And then, when we first got on with you and you said, "Well, I don't know. Am I a trailblazer?" Christine, Christine...
Christine Feehan 00:49:43 / #:
Here's why.
Sarah MacLean 00:49:44 / #:
This is how paranormals begin, now with the heroes in trauma and then, you just sort of ride the wave until you get to the kissing parts.
Christine Feehan 00:49:54 / #:
I finally just said, "You know that Clinch cover? They're going to know it's a romance."
Sarah MacLean 00:50:00 / #:
Right, exactly. I think they'll know. So, at what point did it feel like... I mean, this is obviously a market thing. This is how the sausage is made a little, but when does everybody realize, "Oh, paranormals need a different look"? Is that just because it started to become... So the market just became more exciting?
Christine Feehan 00:50:21 / #:
I really think when I moved over to Berkley, I think that the marketing people at Berkley kind of-
Jennifer Prokop 00:50:32 / #:
Figured that out.
Christine Feehan 00:50:33 / #:
Yeah, they were the ones. For me, for my team, they were the ones who kind of said, "Okay, we're going to do this differently." Interesting enough, in Germany, my books, all of them, even the Ghost Walkers, all of them have bats on the cover.
Jennifer Prokop 00:50:57 / #:
Okay. Sure, sure.
Sarah MacLean 00:50:57 / #:
It's a can of soup, right?
Jennifer Prokop 00:51:00 / #:
I know. I'm like, "Does Saphian mean Bat and German?" I don't know.
Sarah MacLean 00:51:03 / #:
That's funny.
Christine Feehan 00:51:04 / #:
Maybe. What else?
Sarah MacLean 00:51:05 / #:
Yeah.
Christine Feehan 00:51:07 / #:
They do very well but...
Sarah MacLean 00:51:10 / #:
Hey, listen. If it ain't broke, right?
Jennifer Prokop 00:51:14 / #:
You can tell I really love your books, but one of the things Sarah and I have talked about a lot is romance comes and goes, right? The way that what's popular as a trope, what kind of sub-genres are popular, what kinds of hero archetypes are popular. These things change over time. And right now, the romance hero has changed a lot, but I don't necessarily think that your romance heroes has have changed a lot. So, how do you... I don't know. Do you feel the push of market forces, or it doesn't matter, your readers are...
Christine Feehan 00:51:57 / #:
I don't look at trends and I don't look at that kind of thing at all. I have to go with whatever I'm passionate about and I have to go with whatever character's in my head, and I just hope my readers will love the story and love the characters. I write the best book that I can. I try every single book to improve and give a better story and sometimes, I succeed. I do my best, but there is no way that I can write a story to the market. It's not going to happen. And I know that, so I don't even try.
Sarah MacLean 00:52:41 / #:
Well, what's amazing is you've made a career out of arguably not writing to market. You wrote vampires before vampires were cool. You moved to shifters before everyone else moved to shifters and it's amazing, the inspiration that you give writers is write your truth.
Christine Feehan 00:53:03 / #:
Well, the series that I'm doing, I know it's a bad thing to call it the murder series. I really shouldn't-
Sarah MacLean 00:53:10 / #:
Not for me.
Jennifer Prokop 00:53:13 / #:
I think that might be more to market than we'd like to admit, honestly.
Christine Feehan 00:53:17 / #:
Well, I got into that one because one of my daughters does a lot of climbing. She used to live in Bishop, which is up in the mammoth area near Yosemite. And she knows these women and all of them have these incredible stories. And they all became friends, and they would go climbing together, and I would listen to their stories of where they came from. And then, they have these insane jobs. And I was thinking, "Wow, this is amazing." And one day, they were telling me about this hike they'd gone on, and I thought, "what a perfect place for a serial killer." I'm like, "Okay..." They were all going to go on a hike together and camping. And I said, "Okay, girls, I really want you to start looking around for a place where a serial killer might be hanging out, ready to-"
Jennifer Prokop 00:54:20 / #:
Just report back.
Sarah MacLean 00:54:20 / #:
It's totally fine.
Christine Feehan 00:54:24 / #:
So, after that, I started having the girls, every time they go someplace, do that for me. And the next thing I know, they're taking tasers with them.
Sarah MacLean 00:54:34 / #:
I was going to say they stop hiking. They're done with that now.
Christine Feehan 00:54:38 / #:
I kind of ruined it for them. We're talking murder every time we go to the restaurants.
Sarah MacLean 00:54:48 / #:
So, one of the questions that we often ask is, what's the hallmark of a Christine Feehan romance? When a reader picks up a Christine Feehan novel, one of your nearly-100 of them, what do they know they're going to get?
Christine Feehan 00:55:06 / #:
Well, for sure, they're going to get a happy ending. Absolutely sure they're going to get happy ending. I write, always, about, I think, hope and about finding your own version of family. It doesn't matter what the setting is or what the drama that has been... It's about... Or what I want to say genre, but of course, it's romance, but it could be military, it could be suspense, it could be anything. But set in that, there has to be that hope and the finding of family and that happy ending. That's what you're going to get. That's what you're going to find.
Sarah MacLean 00:56:04 / #:
And we didn't talk about this, but it's also going to be super sexy.
Jennifer Prokop 00:56:08 / #:
Oh, yeah.
Sarah MacLean 00:56:09 / #:
And I feel like we should sort of touch on this because I do feel like for me, those early Feehans were-
Jennifer Prokop 00:56:20 / #:
And the late ones.
Sarah MacLean 00:56:21 / #:
No, no. I mean, for me though, Sarah, when I stumbled upon Christine Feehan in the bookstore, it felt like I'd never read anything like this before. And I wonder, can you talk a little bit about that, about really bringing sex to the genre in a lot of ways? I feel like there was, not that it didn't exist before, but there's something about the Feehan sensuality that is different.
Christine Feehan 00:56:53 / #:
Well, to me, the characters are really real. People have asked me that before. I'm not in the book at all. When I'm writing that book, it really is the characters. I don't plot out the book. So the characters are so real to me that I know everything about them from the time they were little. And so, when they're moving through that story, it's all about them. And they're the ones that are having sex or not having sex or whatever's happening to them.
00:57:33 / #:
And so, I'm not somebody who will ever cut and paste a love scene. You're not going to get the same one because they're always... It's a different couple. And so, they react differently to each other and to whatever situation is going on. And I step back so far when I'm writing that I'm not there, and really, it's almost plays out like it's reality for them. And so, to me, it's just part of life. I don't get embarrassed. It's just part of life, and I put that in. And part of the reason for that, and I know this is going to sound crazy, but so many girls that had had these terrible things happen to them would be very promiscuous, but they never felt anything. And I would say, "It's because you don't have a good partner. You're not in love with your partner. He's not doing anything for you." So, I wanted them to know what good sex was, and if you have a book that you can read when no one's around and you can see what good sex is, then it's... When you have a partner, and I can tell you, this is another thing I get lots of letters.
Sarah MacLean 00:59:16 / #:
Oh, interesting. I believe that.
Christine Feehan 00:59:20 / #:
I even had letters from guys who told me they would not cheat on their wives, military guys, because they realized that their wife was too important to them. And I mean, it's amazing. And writers should realize that the words they put down touch people. And you don't know who you're going to touch, and you don't know what you say, what it's going to do to somebody. I mean, when I write something, I don't know who it's going to affect. But I deliberately did put sex in my books for that reason, because I wanted people to know there is good sex. No, that there is, and you should feel something.
Sarah MacLean 01:00:19 / #:
And I love the way you talk about it, as you are so distant from the book itself, you are just writing the book. And I think that's really what a Feehan... That's why it feels so different as a reader or did. In those early books, they felt transcendent because they did feel intense and passionate in that way, that sort of private way.
Christine Feehan 01:00:46 / #:
Yeah. Now, when I started the Leopard series, that was kind of my nod to erotica. Yeah, erotic wasn't a huge, huge thing then. Now, it kind of is, but it wasn't at the time. And so, I was like, "Okay, I'm going to just do a little bit of that." And that was before to Torpedo Ink. And so, I thought, "Oh, I'll put that in my leopard one because it made sense to go there." But then, I started writing Torpedo Ink and I'm like, "Uh-oh, now I've got two."
Jennifer Prokop 01:01:23 / #:
Yeah. That's hot, everybody. I'm okay with it.
Sarah MacLean 01:01:29 / #:
No, the Leopard series. I mean, I remember coming to the Leopard series and just feeling like nobody had ever done anything like that before.
Jennifer Prokop 01:01:38 / #:
Yeah. So, I think the question we love to end with is... So, it's kind of a two-part question, I guess. One is, there a book that you hear about over and over again from readers? And then, the question we have for you is there a book of yours that's your favorite, the one that you are most proud of?
Christine Feehan 01:01:58 / #:
Well, the one I hear about all the time from Readers is Dark Celebration. Every single person wants me to write that book over and over and over.
Jennifer Prokop 01:02:11 / #:
They can just reread it. They can reread it. Reread it, everybody.
Sarah MacLean 01:02:13 / #:
It slaps every time.
Christine Feehan 01:02:16 / #:
It's so funny.
Sarah MacLean 01:02:17 / #:
And why do you think that is?
Christine Feehan 01:02:19 / #:
I think because it revisits characters they love.
Sarah MacLean 01:02:22 / #:
Yes.
Christine Feehan 01:02:24 / #:
I think that's it.
Sarah MacLean 01:02:25 / #:
It's reader Karen Feeding, right?
Christine Feehan 01:02:28 / #:
So, I think that that's it. What book would I be the most proud of?
Sarah MacLean 01:02:35 / #:
Or the one that's most special to you? People take it in different ways.
Christine Feehan 01:02:41 / #:
Probably the one that's the most special to me is Dark Prince, for obvious reasons. That would probably be the one, I would say.
Sarah MacLean 01:02:49 / #:
Well, thank you for being with us today.
Jennifer Prokop 01:02:51 / #:
This was incredible. Thank you so much. Thank you for joining us and it's really an honor.
Christine Feehan 01:02:59 / #:
I really enjoyed being with you. Thank you for inviting me.
Sarah MacLean 01:03:06 / #:
Every single one of these goes differently.
Jennifer Prokop 01:03:10 / #:
Yeah, it's amazing. I think the thing I liked about our conversation with Christine is how personal it felt. I mean, obviously, not just the stories that she shared, but just you can really feel how reading and writing and thinking about hope and happily ever afters is really something she spent her entire life on. And there's a way that I think that just really came through in that conversation. It was so fascinating.
Sarah MacLean 01:03:39 / #:
Absolutely. She talked a few times about how readers have approached her and talked to her about how special her books are to them and how moving they are and how inspirational and important they are to readers. And every time she told them, I had the same thought, which was, "I think it must be really wonderful to have a conversation, a personal conversation with Christine." She feels like she's present in the moment the whole time, and it was really special.
Jennifer Prokop 01:04:14 / #:
I get very distracted by people. I feel like even in my classroom, I'm kind of constantly doing 800 things at once, but you really feel that she probably is such a great mom and a grandma. You know what I mean? Like the attention that she really gives and the way that she talks about... I mean, I'm fascinated too by people who say, "I am a writer. I've always been a writer. I love writing. There's 300 books under the bed."
Sarah MacLean 01:04:41 / #:
A Compulsive Writer. I love that. The sort of, "I would've written with or without publishing." I loved that story about how she got dragged up to an R.W.A. meeting and everybody was like, "Well, I've been working on the same thing for a while." And she's like, "I have 300 books, but I never intended to do this."
Jennifer Prokop 01:05:00 / #:
I also think that that goes hand in hand then with not really worrying about "the market". So, when you are writing in that way and you've had success writing in that way, and you've had readers respond to you in that way, then I think it's really powerful to see someone stay the course.
Sarah MacLean 01:05:24 / #:
I feel like if you are out there right now and you are looking at a manuscript and you think it won't sell you because of the market, hearing Christine talk must be so important and inspirational for you, because we've talked a lot about... We've talked to people like Jayne Ann Krentz, I loved, as she mentioned, Jayne. We've talked about Jayne... When we talked to Jayne, when we talked to J.R. Ward, we've heard the story of people who change genres because, as J.R. Ward puts it, they were fired or it just wasn't selling, so they pivoted. And we've talked so much about how writers have to be nimble to thrive in the genre. And I think what's fascinating is that Christine is nimble and she is full of ideas and shifting and changing, but she stays really true to her brand and to her point of view. And I think that's a really valuable thing to hold onto right now, especially, as we see romance really grappling with those big questions about what comes next and have we oversaturated and these kind of big issues.
Jennifer Prokop 01:06:40 / #:
We didn't have a chance to ask her. She has re-released some of her romances.
Sarah MacLean 01:06:45 / #:
Oh, we meant to ask.
Jennifer Prokop 01:06:46 / #:
I know, as a sort of-
Sarah MacLean 01:06:48 / #:
And then, we got distracted.
Jennifer Prokop 01:06:49 / #:
Author's cuts. With the rise of self-publishing, I think there's a way in which... There's always a market for something. There's always a small dedicated group of readers who are looking for whatever it is that you are selling. It's traditional publishing that has... It can't quite have that leeway to just be like, "Yes." And so, it's really interesting to hear her talk about that Dorchester imprint taking a chance on her and the difference that made. And it's funny because that is not a... I mean, Dorchester, I feel like is not a name I've even ever heard spoken about before in romance.
Sarah MacLean 01:07:36 / #:
I mean, it's really fascinating because I hadn't thought of Dorchester until-
Jennifer Prokop 01:07:42 / #:
We were prepping.
Sarah MacLean 01:07:42 / #:
I was doing research. We were prepping for this episode. You guys, these are the only episodes we actually prep for. We do actually do research before we talk to these people because we are trying to get them to think we're intelligent and so, we know what we're doing. But no, I mean, Dorchester... And now, of course, I want to go back and look a little more at Dorchester. But I was thinking about our conversation with Radcliffe, when we were talking about how these small presses were really the places where big adventures were happening in romance. And obviously, for Radcliffe and for E.E. Ottoman, that was a different kind of thing, that was happening because queer presses had to publish queer books because traditional publishers weren't doing that. But paranormal, I think about those digital-only presses, again, those kind of Ellora's Cave and Sam Haynes and those places that were taking big risks. And so, it doesn't surprise me that one of the mothers of paranormal came up through a place that doesn't exist anymore.
Jennifer Prokop 01:08:56 / #:
This is something I don't... I don't know that I've ever heard any author explicitly state as clearly, which is when you write from a place... When she told that, I mean, heartbreaking story of her son's death, that somehow there are some readers who can plug into that and see a, I don't know, see themselves in that too. And I think that's one of the things, we talk so much about romance being about the genre of hope, about feelings. Romance is about feelings, but it's our feelings as readers too. And I think that this is something that I was really impressed at how clear-eyed it felt like she was about that relationship. If I'm writing from this place, it's going to find the readers in that place.
Sarah MacLean 01:09:55 / #:
And I also think there is... Talk about a fearlessness in terms of character and theme, because she really does write about trauma. And maybe we'll put in the show notes a link to the discussion that Jen and Adriana Herrera have had about writing trauma and how romance and trauma kind of do go hand in hand a lot. But it's interesting because I think writing trauma is a thing that we are talking about a lot in the industry without talking about it, really having conversations about how you put these things on the page so that characters and writers and readers can see it in a raw way. I think she even used that word, raw. And these books are not for the faint of heart. They are rough reads, and she is writing into that space in a way that I think a lot of us are afraid to do. And I think it's because she clearly has seen it, she's faced it. And I loved every minute of that conversation.
Jennifer Prokop 01:11:19 / #:
Romance gives me so much. But when I kind of interact with someone who has the same root causes, and I've talked about this before. I started reading romance after my parents got divorced. The pain of that was the only thing that made me feel hope and better, was reading romance, that there are people out here who have also gone through painful things and they find a way to love each other. And so, it really is interesting, I think, for me, when you talk to someone who, I don't know, talk about the branches of the romance tree. It feels like we were planted in the same ground.
Sarah MacLean 01:12:01 / #:
Yeah. Yeah. Gosh, that was a very cool conversation. I mean, I should have expected it to be, but...
Jennifer Prokop 01:12:10 / #:
A lot of our trailblazers were really pushing for, "Tell us the story of publishing. Tell us your story through that journey." And that's not what her story was about, and I loved hearing it. It was amazing.
S05.27: Teachers and Librarians in Romance
We’re talking about teachers and librarians in romance today, but don’t worry — not hot-for-teacher kinds of teachers and librarians (someday, Sarah will do that one on her own, maybe). Instead, we’re talking about romances with main characters who are teachers or librarians, in honor of the hardworking, committed teachers and librarians who are fighting book bans all across the United States right now.
And speaking of book bans…we’ve got author, activist and our friend Jarrett Dapier back with us this week to talk about the upcoming Spring off-cycle elections that are taking place around the country in the coming weeks…and how book bans are on the ballot in so many places right now. We encourage you to check the dates of your local elections, and make sure that if school or library board positions are on the ballot, you’ve done some research before you head to the polls!
This episode has some unfixable audio deficiencies. Sorry about that.
You can still get tickets to Fated Mates Live! Join us this Friday, March 24 in New York City with Tessa Bailey, Andie J. Christopher, Mila Finelli, Adriana Herrera, and Joanna Shupe! Amazing stories will be told, many laughs will be had, terrific books will be on sale, and there will be a bar! Get tickets now!
Our first read along of 2023 (soon! we promise!) is Tracy MacNish’s Stealing Midnight—we’ve heard the calls from our gothic romance readers and we’re delivering with this truly bananas story, in which the hero is dug out of a grave and delivered, barely alive, to the heroine. Get ready. You can find Stealing Midnight (for $1.99!) at Amazon, B&N, Kobo, or Apple Books.
Show Notes
Welcome Jarrett Dapier, author of Mr. Watson's Chickens, back to the podcast. He was a guest on our first book banning episode, click to listen and see the show notes. This is a time for action, not just being a keyboard warrior. Check our your local paper if you have one, your school district website, and your library’s website.
Wondering if there are upcoming elections in your state? Check out Rock the Vote and click on your state. You can find information about off-cycle elections, which is what non-November election are called (not “off brand” as Sarah accidentally said on the pod.)
Moms for Liberty is bad, actually. These groups trying to ban books continue to ramp up their efforts—they are specifically targeting books with any kind of queer characters, regardless of sexual content, books with people of color, and books that tell the accurate story of our history. Other states are looking to ban books with any kind of sexual content. If you are looking for the big picture, you must follow the censorship tag at Book Riot. Reporter Kelly Jensen has been on the front line of this story for years, and if you’re looking for resources this monster thread she keeps pinned to her twitter profile has ideas for how to take action. You should also check out this list to find an anti-censorship group to join in your area.
The story about the library board in Niles, Illinois; an exciting new Right to Read law making it’s way through the Illinois state congress could be duplicated in your state! Call your local rep and senator and tell them you support the freedom to read. Author Laurie Halse Anderson is a model for how you can show up.
As for book recommendations this week, check out the list of romances about librarians from SuperWendy, and this list from Jessica Pryde, Hot for Teacher (but not Mine). And last but not least, Jen’s list of Who Did it Better in the Library.
Books with Teachers and Librarians
Sponsors
Marie Blanchet, author of Skin Deep
Get it at Amazon, Kobo, or Barnes & Noble
and
Lumi Labs, creators of Microdose Gummies
Visit microdose.com and use the code FATEDMATES
for 30% off and free shipping on your order
S05.24: Technology in Romance Interstitial
It feels like you can’t turn around these days without stumbling into a story that’s a little unsettling about technology and how we’re all living our lives in this post (sort of) pandemic world. Between Twitter dramz, TikTok explosions and the rise of AI, it’s a lot. So, it’s probably to be expected that we are talking about how technology is impacting romance novels. We’re talking about texting, about FaceTime, about podcasting, and yes…even about robots. If you can use it to fall in love, there’s a romance using it…and we’re recommending a few we really enjoyed.
You can still get tickets to Fated Mates Live! Join us on March 24 in New York City with Tessa Bailey, Andie J. Christopher, Mila Finelli, Adriana Herrera, and Joanna Shupe! Amazing stories will be told, many laughs will be had, terrific books will be on sale, and there will be a bar! Get tickets now!
Our first read along of 2023 (soon! we promise!) is Tracy MacNish’s Stealing Midnight—we’ve heard the calls from our gothic romance readers and we’re delivering with this truly bananas story, in which the hero is dug out of a grave and delivered, barely alive, to the heroine. Get ready. You can find Stealing Midnight (for $1.99!) at Amazon, B&N, Kobo, or Apple Books.
Show Notes
This New York Times article called When the Novel Swiped Right doesn't mention a single romance novel, of course. But don't worry. We've got you. Sarah wrote about tech in romance back in 2019 in the Washington Post.
We are very excited about Ted Lasso season 3, which premiers on March 15, 2023. This is a very nice little teaser is a masterclass in character work, but here’s the trailer.
Also in the New York Times, this creepy article about interviewing the Microsoft Bing AI. Maybe that thing has love on the brain because Microsoft fed the AI a bunch of romance novels at some point. Seems legit. But then this New Yorker article came out and said that ChatGPT is just like a blurry jpeg, so everyone calm down.
Match.com was invented in 1995, but it was the invention of the dating app a decade ago in 2013 that really changed the game. And if you’re famous, you can get on Raya.
Kevin Costner is relevant again! Everyone, time to reread Perfect.
The pager situation was wild, but Sky Pager is a truly great song by A Tribe Called Quest, off of The Low End Theory, one of Jen’s all time favorite albums. Poet Hanif Abdurraqib has written an entire book about A Tribe Called Quest called Go Ahead in the Rain for the fans out there.
Watch this cute video about the guy who built a house for the frog living on his fence. And when it comes to the internet, cats rule and dogs drool.
Books Mentioned This Episode
Sponsors
Jo Brenner, author of You Can Follow Me
Get it now from Amazon, or with a monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited.
and
Lumi Labs, creators of Microdose Gummies
Visit microdose.com and use the code FATEDMATES
for 30% off and free shipping on your order
S05.08: Iris Johansen: Trailblazer
Our Trailblazer episodes continue this week with Iris Johansen, who began writing category romance in the heyday of the format at Loveswept. During her varied career, she’s written categories, historicals and now writes thrillers and crime novels.
In this episode, we talk about the founding of Loveswept, about how she learned to write, and about the power of storytelling. We also talk about the way her career has grown and evolved—about transitioning to thrillers, about writing the Eve Duncan series for 28 books, and about keeping it in the family and writing with her son. We had a wonderful time hearing these stories. Thank you to Iris Johansen for making the time for us.
Thanks to Callie Chase, author of Dishonor Among Thieves and Sara Wetmore, author of The Christmas Script, for sponsoring the episode.
Our next read along is Claire Kent’s HOLD. It’s a prison planet romance, so…you know…enter at your own risk. Get it at Amazon or in Kindle Unlimited.
Show Notes
People Iris Mentioned: Loveswept editor Carolyn Nichols, Agent Andrea Cirillo, Sandra Brown, Kay Hooper, Fayrene Preston, Roy Johansen, Catherine Coulter, Linda Howard, Kathleen Woodiwiss, Johanna Lindsey, Jayne Ann Krentz, Ann Maxwell.
The story of Roy Johansen's visit to the submarine at Chicago's Museum of Science and Industry.
Sponsors
This week’s episode of Fated Mates is sponsored by:
Callie Chase, author of Dishonor Among Thieves,
available at Amazon.
Visit calliechase.com for more information and signed books!
and
Sara Wetmore, author of The Christmas Script,
available at Amazon.
Visit sarawetmore.com
S04.21: Sandra Kitt: Trailblazer
Annnnd….we’re back! This week, we’ve got a new Trailblazer episode: Sandra Kitt—the first African American author at Harlequin (Rites of Spring, Harlequin American #43)—joins us to talk about the early days of writing category romance in the US, about writing for Vivian Stephens, about launching romance lines at Kensington and BET, and about her longstanding career. She also talks about writing the books that speak to you first and finding an audience for them later.
This conversation is far reaching and could have gone for hours longer — our hope is that it is not the last time Sandra will join us at Fated Mates. We are so grateful to her for making time for us.
Find the full list of trailblazer episodes here. For more conversations with Sandra Kitt, please listen to her episode of the Black Romance Podcast.
Join us LIVE tonight, Feburary 9th, for our special edition IAD celebration/Fated Mates funtime/Munro/Very likely Derek Craven too episode! Tickets are “pay what you wish” at live.fatedmates.net, you’re welcome to join us for free, or make a donation to help offset the costs of transcribing this season’s Trailblazer episodes.
Our next read along will feature some of Sarah’s favorite quick & dirty books by London Hale, the pen name of authors Ellis Leigh and Brighton Walsh. Their Temperance Falls series is full of kinks and tropes and HEAs and while we won’t be talking about all ten books, we’ll definitely be talking about a few of them. Specific titles to follow, but Sarah is for sure going to want you to read Talk Dirty to Me, which is older mayor of the town heroine, younger firefighter and also phone sex operator hero because…obviously. The whole series is free in KU.
Show Notes
People Sandra mentioned: Vivian Stephens, Elsie Washington/Rosalind Welles, Georgette Heyer, Walter Zacharias, Beverly Jenkins, Jennifer Enderlin, Julie Moody Freeman, Kathryn Falk, Kathleen Woodiwiss, Patricia Veryan, Janet Dailey, Jayne Ann Krentz, Anita Richmond Bunkley, Eboni Snoe, Donna Hill, Gwynne Foster, Marcia King-Gamble, Brenda Jackson.
Sandra Kitt 00:00:00 / #: I remember back in the late '80s when I was really just getting started and people were really beginning to know my name.
00:00:06 / #: I once had a teacher said to me that she used to think of romances as being just trashy novels. And then she started reading them and she said, "I realized that my girls in school, these are important books for them to read." Because the stories were always pretty much middle-class and higher, and because there was always a happy ending, she said, "This is their first introduction to what healthy man-woman relationships could be like."
00:00:43 / #: The stories could be perceived as being a little bit of a fantasy, but she said, "These are pretty much on target. This is what we want. This is what we want in a relationship, a guy who's going to respect you, a guy who's going to make you laugh, who's going to talk to you, who's not going to play you." And so if they're 14, 15, 16 years old and they're reading these books, this is a pretty good start on what relationships could be like.
Jennifer Prokop 00:01:09 / #: That was the voice of Sandra Kitt, one of the first authors for Harlequin American under the new line formed by Vivian Stephens. And the first African American author to write for Harlequin.
00:01:23 / #: We are pretty excited to share what comes from this conversation. We're going to talk a lot about category romance and its evolution and some amazing stories.
Sarah MacLean 00:01:35 / #: Yeah, some great stories.
Jennifer Prokop 00:01:37 / #: Welcome to Faded Mates everyone. I'm Jennifer Prokop, a romance reader and editor.
Sarah MacLean 00:01:43 / #: And I'm Sarah McLean. I read romance novels and I write them. And this is Sandra Kitt.
Jennifer Prokop 00:01:55 / #: All right, we're ready.
Sarah MacLean 00:01:57 / #: So thank you so much for joining us. We are really thrilled to have you.
Sandra Kitt 00:02:01 / #: Thank you.
Sarah MacLean 00:02:02 / #: I told Jen right before we started that I had a little taste of ... I know some of your stories because we've had lunch together.
Sandra Kitt 00:02:12 / #: Oh, yes. Great fun. Great fun.
Sarah MacLean 00:02:14 / #: And maybe now-
Jennifer Prokop 00:02:15 / #: All you New Yorkers making new jealous.
Sandra Kitt 00:02:16 / #: I know.
Sarah MacLean 00:02:18 / #: Now that we're all getting vaccinated, it might actually happen again.
Jennifer Prokop 00:02:22 / #: Yeah, I think so.
Sandra Kitt 00:02:22 / #: I hope so. I hope so.
Sarah MacLean 00:02:23 / #: Exactly.
Sandra Kitt 00:02:24 / #: I hope so.
Sarah MacLean 00:02:26 / #: Sandra, let's start at the beginning. How did you become a writer?
Sandra Kitt 00:02:33 / #: Well, I guess I first have to say that I was not looking to become a writer. When this all happened to me, I was very happy in a professional career as an astronomy librarian at the American Museum of Natural History in New York. And it was-
Jennifer Prokop 00:02:52 / #: I love astronomy and the moon. I'm so excited right now.
Sarah MacLean 00:02:55 / #: It's the coolest job.
Sandra Kitt 00:02:58 / #: ... It was a very, very cool job. And working at the museum was just great fun. I met the most amazing people there, beginning with Isaac Asimov, with whom I became very good friends with him and his wife. And illustrated two books for him.
00:03:15 / #: And following through the whole astronaut era of being able to meet them up until, and even now, Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson, with whom I worked for almost 20 years before he went off to become a rock star. And I continued doing women's fiction and romances.
00:03:34 / #: So it was a wonderful` career. And actually what happened was it was very instantaneous and haphazard, really. I got an idea one day for a story. I had never written a story before, but going through school, I wrote a lot of poetry and little romantic scenes. I wouldn't call them stories. And I got this idea for a story, which came to me in my head, fully, fully developed in about five minutes.
00:04:04 / #: And I went home that evening after work and sat down and began writing. I had no idea what I was doing. I wasn't sure what the format of a book was supposed to be like. And I wrote this story in about six weeks, and it was over a 100,000 words. So that tells you how much it just absolutely flowed out of me.
Jennifer Prokop 00:04:23 / #: Amazing.
Sandra Kitt 00:04:24 / #: And this day, to this day, I've always, I still believe that was the book that I was meant to write. And ultimately, it was published as The Color of Love. So that was my seminal book. That's the one that I'm most known for. That's the one that continues to sell.
Sarah MacLean 00:04:44 / #: But that wasn't the first book that you published.
Sandra Kitt 00:04:47 / #: That wasn't the first book that I published.
Jennifer Prokop 00:04:50 / #: It's the first book you wrote.
Sandra Kitt 00:04:50 / #: The very first book I wrote.
Sarah MacLean 00:04:50 / #: Walk us through how that happens.
Sandra Kitt 00:04:55 / #: How it got from the first book to the first published book. Well, I had no expectations of getting published. I really wrote the book for myself. I'd never seen a story like The Color of Love. That was not the working title. It was something else at the time.
Sarah MacLean 00:05:10 / #: For everyone, The Color of Love is about a white police officer and a Black heroine.
Sandra Kitt 00:05:15 / #: Which remains so topical even today.
Jennifer Prokop 00:05:20 / #: Right.
Sarah MacLean 00:05:20 / #: Right.
Sandra Kitt 00:05:21 / #: Yeah. It did have a white police officer. The story took place in New York where I was born and raised. And the heroine was an African American book designer who worked in publishing. They met in a very strange, fortuitous way, purely happenstance, again. And because of the way they met, she came to his aid one morning when she found them outside of her house.
00:05:44 / #: He returned six weeks later to thank her. And he was both stunned that he had done that, and so was she. But it began a friendship. And of course, ultimately what happened with the friendship, once they got over their qualms about being interested in someone of another race, they began to fall in love.
00:06:02 / #: And it's a story about how they overcame all of the obstacles, of which there were many, in order for them to commit to their love and to show each other how much they really believed in each other and loved each other.
00:06:17 / #: I'm very proud of that book. I thought what I wanted to do, besides write an interracial story, because I was looking at the world I lived in, in New York, in the country. And we don't talk about it, but it's not as if interracial couples have never existed before. But I wanted to not only see if I could write a story that was credible about an interracial relationship, I decided to really throw in the kitchen sink by making the hero a cop. Because then, as now, the relationship between law enforcement and communities with people of color has always been tenuous, has always been very, very rocky. So I wanted to see if I could write a story that the readers would believe, that they would believe that this was even possible. And I think I succeeded just in the history of the story itself, and where it is even now, in the history of romances and women's fiction.
Sarah MacLean 00:07:17 / #: You came out of the gate swinging for the fences.
Sandra Kitt 00:07:19 / #: I did.
Sarah MacLean 00:07:20 / #: Ground us. What's the year that we're talking about at this point?
Sandra Kitt 00:07:23 / #: I began writing that story and finishing it in 1980. So I'm also giving my age.
Jennifer Prokop 00:07:30 / #: That's okay.
Sarah MacLean 00:07:31 / #: Barely even born, barely even born. That's fine.
Sandra Kitt 00:07:34 / #: Thank you. Thank you, Sarah. Love you. Love you.
Sarah MacLean 00:07:37 / #: But it wasn't published until-
Sandra Kitt 00:07:39 / #: It was 15 years.
Sarah MacLean 00:07:40 / #: ... 1995, right?
Sandra Kitt 00:07:42 / #: It was 15 years before I could get it published. And that's not to say I didn't circulate it among all of the publishing houses.
Sarah MacLean 00:07:48 / #: Sure.
Sandra Kitt 00:07:48 / #: And what I consistently got back as feedback from the editors is that, "This is a really well-written book. It's really, really interesting, and I don't think we can publish it." And they would say, "We just don't know what we would do with it, because it's such a taboo subject." And that was the word they used, taboo, because it was this whole interracial thing. We take it for granted now in the 21st century.
Sarah MacLean 00:08:14 / #: In 1995, yeah.
Sandra Kitt 00:08:14 / #: Yeah. But in 1980, it was not done. And you should see if there are any other interracial stories around that era, and there really aren't. I can only think of one, but it wasn't considered a romance. It was considered commercial fiction, and it had a different kind of theme.
Jennifer Prokop 00:08:31 / #: Right, yeah. Well, what they had in the '80s were those awful romances with Native American men and historicals.
Sandra Kitt 00:08:39 / #: My feeling about them publishing them with Native American heroes or using Arab sheiks and all that, it was just an excuse to write about someone who was of color. And so it became exotic. You write about Native American falling in love with a white woman. It was always a white woman.
00:09:04 / #: It's all kinds of things. It's exploring an issue that no one ever talked about. So if you write about it in terms of historic fiction, then it's a little bit more acceptable rather than placing it in the 20th or now, the 21st century. If you say this is a story that took place in the 1800s, it's acceptable because it was the past.
00:09:25 / #: So my feeling is that I don't think it was a deliberate intent. But the way I read it, is that this was a way of exploring the whole issue of interracial romances by setting the story, first of all, in a historical period. And then, using other races that were still exotic because we really didn't know a lot about them, including our own Native Americans or the Arab countries. Or people who are Spanish, or people who are South Asian, that kind of thing.
00:09:59 / #: But I just went for the jugular. I just said, "I'm going to set this in America and let's see where the chips fall."
Sarah MacLean 00:10:05 / #: Nice.
Sandra Kitt 00:10:05 / #: Let's see where the chips fall.
Sarah MacLean 00:10:07 / #: Okay, so you have The Color of Love, which is not titled that at the time, but whatever you have this.
Sandra Kitt 00:10:13 / #: No, I think the working title originally was Through the Eyes of Love.
Sarah MacLean 00:10:19 / #: That's also nice.
Sandra Kitt 00:10:19 / #: And then at a second revision, writing through it, I named it Barriers, then it segues, the final title was The Color of Love, and that was just the perfect title for it. It really spoke very specifically about what the book is about. But once I finished it, I put it aside because as I said, I was writing for myself.
00:10:41 / #: I was writing stories that I had not seen in the industry, in the marketplace, in the bookstores, and the story came to me. I said, "This is a great story, the people who would like to read this." So I wrote a second book and I finished it, and then I wrote a third book and I finished it. And it wasn't until I finished that third book that I realized, because I had so many ideas coming to me so fast, I said, "Maybe some of this is publishable."
00:11:11 / #: Now, at the time, 1981, Harlequin had decided to start a new romance line where the stories were set completely in America, because they were a Canadian company. And they then went on the look for American writers to write the American stories, because of course, we knew our own history.
00:11:32 / #: And so, I just happened to come across this article in the New York Times. And they talked about Vivian Stephens, who they had recently hired to head up the New York office for this Harlequin imprint.
Jennifer Prokop 00:11:49 / #: This was Harlequin American Romance for everybody.
Sandra Kitt 00:11:51 / #: That became the Harlequin American Romance. Exactly. So I, being a librarian. I dug up the number for the New York office, and when I called, I got Vivian on the phone. I was totally stunned.
Sarah MacLean 00:12:04 / #: Amazing.
Sandra Kitt 00:12:06 / #: But I didn't know any better. I was so innocent and naive about publishing and people and who they were and how this worked.
00:12:13 / #: She answered the phone. I introduced myself and said, "I just read about you in the New York Times, and I see you're looking for writers." I said, "I don't really know anything about publishing, but I have written three books, and I'm thinking perhaps one of them might interest you for your new line." And she said, "Well, why don't you come on in and meet with me. We'll sit down and have a talk."
Sarah MacLean 00:12:33 / #: Perfect.
Sandra Kitt 00:12:34 / #: And I'm thinking, "All right, this is already sounding good."
Sarah MacLean 00:12:38 / #: At the time you were writing romances, obviously, were you?
Sarah MacLean 00:12:43 / #: You were not?
Jennifer Prokop 00:12:43 / #: No, you weren't.
Sandra Kitt 00:12:44 / #: No, I was not writing romances. I was writing ... I always believed that my stories were a lot bigger in scope and complexity than the romances that I had been reading.
Sarah MacLean 00:12:55 / #: Were you reading them too?
Sandra Kitt 00:12:56 / #: Oh my goodness. I've been reading them since junior high school, but they weren't called romances in those days. They were called Gothic romances because they were all written about England. They were all historicals.
00:13:08 / #: Then you get to the Mills & Boon stories from Harlequin where the stories then began to become more contemporary. But they were still all white characters, all in Europe. There was nothing about America in them at all.
Sarah MacLean 00:13:22 / #: And you were writing something different.
Sandra Kitt 00:13:24 / #: And I was writing totally different. If you've read The Color of Love, how complex that story is. And it's two or three subplots in it, and there's also a second romance going on. So I knew that what I was writing was bigger, deeper, more complex, and longer in terms of the writing. Very, very complex, word count.
Sarah MacLean 00:13:47 / #: Which is a big piece of this at the time. These categories have a very specific word count or no [inaudible 00:13:54 / #].
Sandra Kitt 00:13:53 / #: Exactly. But I didn't know that.
Sarah MacLean 00:13:56 / #: Right, exactly.
Sandra Kitt 00:13:56 / #: I didn't know that. I simply wrote the book. And I figured that I knew that it was long, but I really hadn't paid much attention to the fact that my books were significantly, sometimes twice as long as the typical category or series romance. I just in one ear and out the other.
00:14:15 / #: So Vivian had me come into her office, and it was on Second Avenue. I remember, Second Avenue between 42nd and 41st Street. And her office was so new, she had no furniture. She didn't have a secretary. There was no receptionist. There was just Vivian. And so we went into her office and sat down, and it was an amazing conversation because I said, "This is what I'm doing. I've written these three books. I don't know anything about publishing."
00:14:45 / #: So in two hours, she met with me for two hours, and gave me a quick tutorial on what she looking for, what she wanted to see in romance, yada, yada, yada. At the end of the two hours, she said, "I understand you said that you've written three books." And I said, "Yeah." She said, "Why don't you send me two? Just pick the two of the three that you thought were really different or strong or whatever. Send them to me and let me take a look at them."
00:15:12 / #: So believe me, the next day-
Sarah MacLean 00:15:14 / #: I bet.
Sandra Kitt 00:15:16 / #: ... the manuscripts were in the mail. And she called me 10 days later to say, "I'm buying both books." And the two books that she bought was a Black romance, which was Adam and Eva. And I gave her a story where the main characters were white but had secondary Black characters. And that became the Rites of Spring. And that was the very, very first book that she published. But both books came out in 1984.
00:15:48 / #: So that's how I got started. And basically, once those two books came out, I was off to the races. I was off and running. Everything I wrote after that for many, many years always got published. But just to show you how much I didn't know about the industry, I didn't know that I could have written a proposal or done just three chapters, submit them to a publisher or an editor, and then they would decide that they want it and put me on the contract.
00:16:18 / #: I would write the whole book because I didn't know any better. I wrote the whole book. I was in those days, a pretty fast writer. I was doing them in about three months. And then, so I would show them to an editor at Harlequin and they'd say, "Oh, we want this." And they would buy it. And that would be that.
00:16:34 / #: I think I had written my 10th book before someone said to me, "You don't really have to write the whole book right away." And I'm going, "10, seriously? Were they keeping this a secret?"
00:16:48 / #: So anyway, I was off and running. I felt so fortunate. I felt that, "Wow, this is happening really, really quickly." But even as I began to work with Vivian, on Adam and Eva in particular, I began to get a sense of how certain people in the industry were looking at me as a writer, and looking at my stories.
00:17:13 / #: When she bought Adam and Eva, she told me that the guys, and they were all guys at the time up in Canada, didn't want her to buy the manuscript. And they wanted her to figure out how to reject it, turn it back to me, and get the advance back.
Sarah MacLean 00:17:31 / #: Because the characters were African Americans.
Sandra Kitt 00:17:33 / #: Because the characters were all Black. They were all African Americans, and they didn't want to deal with how their white readership, which was substantial, was going to respond. Because don't forget, at the time, Harlequin's book came out as a subscription series. You join the of subscription-
Jennifer Prokop 00:17:49 / #: You're going to get all of them.
Sandra Kitt 00:17:50 / #: ... Right. And you got four books every month, and you got whatever you got, that's what you got.
00:17:55 / #: So they were already anticipating that there'd be a lot of blow back if one month, one of the books had Black characters on the cover. And to Vivian's credit, and then I give her a lot of credit for this. She told them, "No, we're going to put this book through and we're going to see what happens."
00:18:11 / #: One of the things she said to me when I met with her was, "My goal is to change the way we perceive romances in this country." She said, "I can't do anything about the rest of the world, but I want the books to reflect the way America looks." And so she was actively looking for African American writers at the time, who would break that wall and begin to come in.
00:18:37 / #: And this is where Elsie Washington comes into the story. I did not know Elsie before meeting Vivian. Elsie and Vivian were actually very good friends. Let's face it, there weren't very many African Americans in the field at all. And they all knew each other. They all knew each other. They're very emotionally and psychologically supportive of what they had to go through in order to break into this career.
Sarah MacLean 00:19:02 / #: Maybe you could give listeners an overview of who Elsie is and why she's important.
Sandra Kitt 00:19:09 / #: So Elsie Washington at the time was a journalist. She was writing, working freelance, doing articles. She wrote quite a bit for Essence Magazine. I think that she was a regular columnist for a while. And so what Vivian did was to approach Elsie, because Elsie was a writer.
00:19:34 / #: And she said to her, "I want you to write a book because I'm looking to break in and open up this field to Black writers. We know that there are a lot of talented Black writers out there. We just have to find them." So she asked Elsie if she would write a book.
00:19:49 / #: And Vivian worked very, very closely with Elsie on the book, because as Elsie told me, maybe a year or two later after the book came out, which was called Entwined Destinies, and she wrote under the name of Rosalind Welles, that was her pseudonym. She said it was really, really, really difficult for her to write the book because she says, "I'm not a novelist." She says, "I write freelance. I write nonfiction. I write about beauty. I write about all kinds of things, but I don't write romances."
00:20:22 / #: So Vivian had to really hold her hand through the project. They talked about the story settings. Vivian explained what she wanted in a romance, what the romance should be about. Elsie came up with characters in a setting, and Vivian was like a guidance for her through the process until the book was done.
00:20:45 / #: And that book came out not as a Harlequin American Romance book. It came out under the Candlelight series, which was a Doubleday and print, but it was the first one by a Black writer that Candlelight had ever done. And subsequently, was legitimately the very first Black romance.
00:21:06 / #: So in that regard, Elsie came before me in terms of being the first in that category. I was the first with the American Romance line. As a matter of fact, I think Rites of Spring was number 13 in the whole line of books. And then again, as I said, later that year, 1984, came Adam and Eva. But once Elsie finished that book, she couldn't be persuaded to write another one. She said she found it very difficult because it wasn't her natural forte.
00:21:41 / #: She was a lovely, lovely lady, very gentle, very sweet, very smart, very kind. I liked her a lot. And down the road a few years when I learned that she had died of cancer, there was an obituary in the New York Times for her. I was stunned. I thought she, "Oh my goodness, she's so young. What do you mean she's dead?" But she was gone.
00:22:03 / #: But she did I feel, leave a place in history in the genre, even though a lot of people, most people apparently don't know who she is or know anything about her. There's not a lot written about her either. But I did have an opportunity to know her a little bit for about a two or three year period, and I'm very happy for that.
Sarah MacLean 00:22:25 / #: When Harlequin American Romance as a series, what's your understanding? Was this like Harlequin had this idea and they found Vivian, or did Vivian pitch it as a, "We need an American Romance line?" Do you have any sense of that relationship between that line being founded?
Sandra Kitt 00:22:44 / #: I have a sense that Vivian did not approach them. I think that they came to her. You have to remember that during the era, Harlequin was it.
Sarah MacLean 00:22:53 / #: That was it.
Sandra Kitt 00:22:54 / #: They were the premier and only romance line that was out there. They were doing extremely well worldwide. And there-
00:23:03 / #: ... extremely well worldwide, and their own demographics and focus groups show that American women readers read huge numbers of the Harlequin books and it was always known that it was a Canadian company. I don't think the readers really paid much attention to the fact that it was a Canadian company. They liked the genre.
Jennifer Prokop 00:23:22 / #: Sure.
Sandra Kitt 00:23:22 / #: And I think it was the powers that be in Canada decided, "Wow, these are huge numbers from the American readers. Maybe what we should do is start a whole another line."
Jennifer Prokop 00:23:36 / #: Cater to them.
Sandra Kitt 00:23:37 / #: Right, that not only caters to the American reader, but is set, the story. Otherwise, the stories had never been set in America. The earlier Harlequin books had never been. So they very smartly and very innovatively decided let's start a new line set in America, all the stories, and we'll find American writers to write the American stories. They contacted Vivian and they hired her away from Candlelight because she was so hugely, really successful in developing the Candlelight series. And a lot of people don't know this either, she was the first editor to find Sandra Brown. She was the first one to find Barbara Delinsky. Jayne Ann Krentz. All came through the Candlelight series, which Vivian was the editor of.
00:24:27 / #: So they looked at her record, looked at her numbers, and say, "Wow, we have to have her because she clearly knows what she was doing." And I'd once said to Vivian, after talking to her and learning a little bit more about her, I always thought that she had the purest, very clear sense of what a "romance" was and what it should be and what it should be about, and what women wanted to read.
00:24:53 / #: And I think that the genre has certainly changed since the 1980s, late 1970s, and to the point where I think we almost have to redefine romance because what we read today in romance is not what I had considered romance when I came into the industry, and what appeals to me as a women's fiction romance reader is not like any of the books that I really see coming out today, which is fine, change happens, change is natural, but I think that with change, you have to really revisit what it is you're writing and what is the mission statement, so to speak, of the stories. What is it you're trying to accomplish?
Sarah MacLean 00:25:38 / #: That's really fascinating. Could you talk a little more about that? Are you willing to talk a little more about that with us?
Sandra Kitt 00:25:47 / #: Yeah, sure.
Sarah MacLean 00:25:48 / #: No, because we certainly...
Jennifer Prokop 00:25:48 / #: Yeah, tell us. Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 00:25:48 / #: ... have had this conversation a lot that the genre is always evolving and where's it going now? So what are you thinking?
Sandra Kitt 00:25:55 / #: Okay, so I guess I have to kind of go back a little bit to when I began reading them in junior high school and they were Gothic novels. What appealed to me about the stories was the relationship between the he and the she. How did they actually come together, what drew them together? Now, the stories, the Gothic novels per se, always had an element of suspense about it and always damsel in distress being saved by this hunky hero who was also incredibly wealthy. And I was fascinated by that. 13, 14 years old, what do we know about love or romance?
00:26:32 / #: Then I sort of progressed from that to reading some of the Harlequin books and those, yeah, the Harlequin books, and those appealed to me because they were contemporary stories. Even though they were still set in Europe or set in Canada, they appealed to me because they were contemporary, which was something I could really relate to. Then we started publishing books by historical novels primarily by people like Johanna Lindsey and Kathleen Woodiwis, who was one of my favorites. I just loved her work. And see, there's another writer that I really liked a lot, Georgette Heyer.
Jennifer Prokop 00:27:12 / #: Sure.
Sandra Kitt 00:27:13 / #: Just amazing. And what I liked about their books were that they had a level of intelligence. They weren't just stories about he meets her, she meets him, they fall in love, they argue, they separate, they come back together, and it's the end of the book. Her stories, these stories were very well-developed characters, real sense of history, particularly Georgette Heyer, and her books had very subtle humor that just made me laugh all the time.
00:27:43 / #: And so when I started thinking about the stories that I really liked and appeal to me, they were the stories that had a very strong sense of setting. The characters were very well-drawn and consistent. You understood their motivation. And maybe I was thinking a little bit too intellectually at the time about them, but that's the kind of thing that appealed to me. And when the characters fell in love, you believed it and you believed why they were falling in love.
00:28:14 / #: For me, romance at the time, and don't forget, this was before we had introduced consummation in the stories, and there was the sex between the sheets and all of that, it was all about the emotions. It was all about...
Jennifer Prokop 00:28:32 / #: Feelings.
Sandra Kitt 00:28:33 / #: Right, the wonderful sense you got of meeting someone that you're really attracted to, but he's interesting and he's got a sense of humor or he's really smart. Whatever the case may be, I liked getting back to that primary instant when the attraction clicked and the story takes off from there. And so it's really about the emotion. It's about gaining trust, it's about overcoming doubts and taking chance and risks. So my stories have always been very emotional because that's what appealed to me.
00:29:11 / #: What I think began to happen as the envelope was pushed and writers were able to do a little bit more, then you brought in the sexuality issue, and don't forget, we went through that whole period where we were accused by critics of just writing soft mommy porn because of the sex...
Jennifer Prokop 00:29:32 / #: Still happens, right?
Sandra Kitt 00:29:32 / #: And it still happens occasionally. And of course the people who criticize it don't understand what the romance is all about anyway. Or they'd know that it's about the feelings and emotions that go into people falling in love. It's not about the act of sex, it's much more than that.
00:29:49 / #: And so I sort of began to feel this is what I'm interested in when I read a book about relationships, it's really the core of it is about the relationship. The story is something else that kind of advances the relationship between the characters and pushes it forward, but it all comes down to emotion. It all comes down to what do they feel and believe about each other in their hearts and how can they nurture it and make it something that's permanent and you have a happy ending.
00:30:21 / #: I think what's happened is once we began to allow sexuality into the stories, the envelope began to be pushed even further. And it seemed to be that became much more of a focus in the story, and there were a lot of readers who were really into that. They just wanted to get right to it and find out what they were doing in bed together. And so the emotional part of it began to take a back seat. And while I understand the fascination and appeal to the sexual part of it, because let's face it, if it's well written, you're going to get hot. And I once heard a writer say that, "If you don't get turned on writing your own love scenes, then you're not doing it right."
00:31:09 / #: So that's all good and fine and it's part of the relationship, part of human nature, part of procreation, part of all of that. But I don't think we can get away from the fundamentals, which is the relationship...
Jennifer Prokop 00:31:25 / #: Feelings.
Sandra Kitt 00:31:26 / #: What are they feeling about...
Jennifer Prokop 00:31:26 / #: Feelings.
Sandra Kitt 00:31:27 / #: ... each other. And I really kind of feel that not only have we kind of gotten away from that basis, that foundation for the stories, I don't think we spend enough time talking about what does it mean when you're asking, how do they feel about each other? When I write a love scene, a thesaurus is my favorite writing tool because I find words to describe feelings because I want to feel what she's feeling, the heroine, when a guy touches her. When he suddenly puts his hand on the back of her neck or runs his hand down her arms or turns her to face him and they're looking into each other's eyes. It doesn't always come down the sex, it comes down to that visceral...
Jennifer Prokop 00:32:14 / #: A connection.
Sarah MacLean 00:32:14 / #: Intimacy, yeah.
Sandra Kitt 00:32:15 / #: ... connection, which is hard to describe. The intimacy. Thank you. And so I do think that we need to look at romances where they are now, and heaven knows where they're going to be in five or 10 years if you keep pushing the envelope back. I wonder if at some point we begin to circle back to what they used to be and what really got the audience to begin with, what drew them in to begin with. Because the stories appealed to readers before the sex was introduced. So you don't necessarily need that, and you don't have to call it inspirational or sweet romance just because it doesn't have sex. It all comes down to emotion. So I do think we really need to revisit that and we decide what we're going to do about it.
00:33:07 / #: I only knew Vivian as an editor for about 18 months. She was only with Harlequin for about 18 months, and then she left. I'm not sure if she left or if they let her go, but she wasn't there anymore. And so I was turned over to one of the other editors in the company and continued to write for them for the next nine years. And what was interesting about them giving me such a hard time about writing stories with Black characters is that I eventually got an editor in 1993, I believe, '94, who they were doing an anthology about Thanksgiving and it was called Friends, Families, and Lovers. And they asked me to do one of the stories in which the couple was interracial. And I'm thinking, "Really?"
Sarah MacLean 00:34:02 / #: You're like, "I have a book for you. I have a book for you."
Jennifer Prokop 00:34:05 / #: "Let me tell you where I was 15 years ago," right?
Sandra Kitt 00:34:09 / #: No, I didn't even think to show them The Color of Love. I wrote another story for them called Love is Thanks Enough, and it was a Thanksgiving theme. But I was just so stunned that out of the blue 10 years later, they're now coming around to asking me to do something that's new and that's different. And the one thing I will give to Harlequin is that they were always able to come up with innovative new imprints.
Sarah MacLean 00:34:33 / #: But Sandra, in that interim period after Vivian left and until that Thanksgiving short, it sounds like you were writing books about two white people falling in love, right?
Sandra Kitt 00:34:45 / #: I was, and I got a lot of flack about that from the Black readers.
Sarah MacLean 00:34:50 / #: Was that because the publishers basically said you had to?
Sandra Kitt 00:34:55 / #: No, no, no. The publishers had nothing other than not accepting a story if I submitted it with Black characters. They really didn't tell me what I should write. I kind of figured it out.
Sarah MacLean 00:35:05 / #: But quietly told you what you should write.
Jennifer Prokop 00:35:06 / #: Like, "Really."
Sandra Kitt 00:35:08 / #: They very, very non-verbal, very, very non-verbal which was...
Jennifer Prokop 00:35:13 / #: You were like, "It's a little math. Let me put two and two together."
Sandra Kitt 00:35:15 / #: Yeah, I think I can figure this out. No, what happened was I had always considered myself somewhat of a switch-hitter as a writer, and that means I write the story as they come to me. And with The Color of Love, the story came to me as an interracial story. The next book that I wrote that came out after that was called Significant Others. This was when I was writing for Penguin Putnam, and that was a story about an African American woman who was so fair she could pass for white, but she didn't. She knew she was African American. She claimed it, this is what I am. But being the way people perceived her because of the way she looked complicated her love life. So she was always having these mixed signals and messages coming to her from men that she met, whether it was a Black man or a white man, and she wasn't looking for either. It's just she was who she was and she had to deal with it.
00:36:18 / #: So I was always mixing up the genre and trying to write things that no one else had been writing about. Then there was Between Friends in which these two girls who were childhood friends, one was Black and one was white, and they grew up together in the same community. And when the white woman had a child, the Black friend became the godmother to the white child. But then the hero was someone who had saved the heroine, who was African American, when they were teenagers when she was about to be raped, and he literally saved her life. Then he goes off and lives his life and she's living hers. When he is reintroduced to the community, then there is competition between the two girls over the guy who is white.
00:37:10 / #: My stories, I was raised in New York, which is arguably one of the most integrated cities in the universe, and this is the world I've always known. I've always been part of multi-mixed community since the time I was in elementary school, junior high school. Some of the friends that I met in junior high school are my friends today, and they are Hispanic, they're Asian, they're Jewish, one guy is Hungarian who's white.
00:37:40 / #: So this is not unusual to me. I looked at the world that I lived in New York, and that's where I began to draw on my stories because I didn't ever see anything written about the reality of the city, let alone the country which was beginning to change. The country was beginning to move towards a level of diversity that was noticeable. And all of my stories looked towards the future, and that's why I write contemporary stories rather than historical. I'm interested in the times we're living in because in writing about where we are now, I'm absolutely preparing for the future and where we're going in the future.
Sarah MacLean 00:38:24 / #: So did the Thanksgiving anthology lead you to get on the radar of, oh, what was his name who founded Arabesque?
Sandra Kitt 00:38:35 / #: Oh, Walter Zacharius.
Sarah MacLean 00:38:36 / #: Walter, thank you. Sorry.
Sandra Kitt 00:38:38 / #: Right.
Sarah MacLean 00:38:38 / #: I was like, "Zachary," and then I was like, "No, that's not right. It's Zacharius. Okay.
Sandra Kitt 00:38:41 / #: You were close. You were very close. He was a sweetheart. But Walter was one of the few people who put his money where his mouth was. He understood that the industry was changing. He understood that the genre was changing. And we've had talks about it. He'd say, "I don't understand why other publishers don't realize that there's a whole market out there that they've been ignoring just because the readers may all be Black." He said, "Give them what they want, and then you get what you want, which is that you sell more books and you make more money."
00:39:16 / #: So he started Arabesque. It was actually called Pinnacle, Arabesque under the Pinnacle imprint because he said, "I think it's time. I think that if we put a line out there where the target audience is going to be African American," he says, "I think it's going to be a success."
00:39:32 / #: And he came to me and my agent at the time and said, "I'm going to start this line. This is what we're going to call it, and I want Sandra to be my lead-off writer for the line." Because I was still at the time the only one out there who was doing these stories. I think in 1995, '96, that's when Beverly Jenkins may have come in on the scene, but she was doing historicals. And that's where she made her bones and made her imprint because there were no Black historical romances. So she just cornered the field and she was a good writer and she was a history buff, so she certainly did her homework. But that was the start of the market really beginning to open up and be accepting to Black voices.
00:40:23 / #: I liked the idea because I knew that there were other writers out there looking to get in. I was a little bit resistant to the idea of a separate imprint just for African American readers because to my thinking it smacked of segregation again. I had hoped that when the lines came out, first there was Arabesque Pinnacle, and then down the road a little ways came Kimani.
Sarah MacLean 00:40:52 / #: Kimani.
Sandra Kitt 00:40:53 / #: Because again, Walter had passed away at that point. They had sold Pinnacle Arabesque to BET, Black Entertainment Television. Then Harlequin had picked it up for a while. And I knew that when Harlequin picked it up, it's because they really saw what it was they were missing in the marketplace. And I had a feeling that what they were going to do was acquire Arabesque, work with the current contracts that came in, and then they were going to kill off Arabesque and start their own line, and that's what they did. They brought in Kimani.
00:41:32 / #: Someone once said to me though, "When you were there, they had you first. Why didn't they see after nine books what you were capable of and use you as the impetus for growing a line or integrating Black writers into what Harlequin already had?" I can't answer that question. I can't answer it because they've never really addressed it. And why should they? It's kind of controversial. But that's the way it kind of developed.
00:42:07 / #: But after the anthology from Harlequin, that's when I was approached by Penguin Putnam and Jennifer Enderlin. If you remember, Jennifer Enderlin...
Sarah MacLean 00:42:18 / #: Of course.
Sandra Kitt 00:42:18 / #: ... was a really hot shot editor and eventually became a vice president for the line. She was the one who gave me my first two-book contract, which included The Color of Love.
Sarah MacLean 00:42:32 / #: Until this, you've been selling one at a time?
Sandra Kitt 00:42:35 / #: Until then I was selling one book at a time for 10 years.
Jennifer Prokop 00:42:38 / #: Wow.
Sandra Kitt 00:42:39 / #: Even Harlequin never said, "We're going to put you on the contract for two or three books because clearly your stories are selling." That's a whole other story. Don't get me started on that. But Jennifer offered me the contract and she bought The Color of Love. She says, "I really like this story." And then the second book, she says, "I want another book for you." And that's when I came up with the idea for Significant Others about the young African American woman who was so fair she could pass for white and the complications that gave her life, particularly in the era of romance.
00:43:13 / #: But then after those books came out, I got another two-book contract from them, and that became Between Friends, the story of the two girls who had grown up together. And I think another book from that was She's the One which was about a firefighter. And then the last two books was Family Affair about an ex-con. Again, I was always trying... What if I had a hero who was an ex-con? Can I pull that off? I was always asking myself...
Sarah MacLean 00:43:46 / #: Swinging for the fences. Yeah.
Jennifer Prokop 00:43:48 / #: Yeah. Right.
Sandra Kitt 00:43:48 / #: Yeah, just go for it. I mean, the worst that can happen is that they'll turn you down and okay, I've had to face that. And then the last book I did, which was also very popular for that particular line was called Close Encounters. Again, an interracial story where the hero was again a cop and the heroine was an art teacher. And I can give away some of... I can do a reveal here because the book is really out of print right now. She ends up getting shot by the hero.
Sarah MacLean 00:44:25 / #: What?
Sandra Kitt 00:44:25 / #: He was on a sting, a drug sting with his team. I think he was a lieutenant in the police department and they had this elaborate sting set up. And her dog started getting fidgety and she decided at four o'clock in the morning to take the dog out for a walk. And the dog sensed, because dogs do, that there was something going on and he kept pulling her in the direction of what was going on. And before the undercover cops could realize that there was a pedestrian on the scene, action started popping, guns started firing, and they're after the bad guys, and she gets shot.
00:45:06 / #: And they didn't know right away who had shot her. Everybody was firing guns at everybody else. But in the subsequent investigation, it came out that the hero, Lee, had been the one to shoot her. And he felt enormous guilt. It was clearly an accident. She was in the wrong place at the wrong time. And he really emotionally responded to the fact that he was almost responsible for killing a civilian and a Black woman at that.
00:45:35 / #: And so that's how they met. He went to the hospital to see if she was okay and the development. And that's what I do with my stories. I don't make them predictable. I don't think there's much fun in making them predictable. I'm always, always trying to challenge myself.
00:45:53 / #: One of the points I was going to make that I got off of when I was talking about the Black stories versus the white stories is I always wrote the stories as they came to me and...
00:46:03 / #: I always wrote the stories as they came to me. And because I grew up in a culture that was so diverse and integrated, sometimes the stories came to me with white characters. The Rite of Spring, the very first book that was published had a white heroine and a white hero. But sometimes they came to me as Black characters. Now you're talking Adam and Eva, which not only have Black characters, it takes place on a Caribbean island, which is all Black. But I did have some Black readers accuse me of writing white stories because I knew that's how I would get published. And I was actually kind of hurt by that because that wasn't giving me enough credit for just being creative. But I did get accused of that, and I didn't even address it because I knew that wasn't true. I just kept writing the stories that came to me and trying to write the best stories that I could.
Sarah MacLean 00:46:55 / #: But as we're talking about readers, I want to talk about the other kind of readers, the readers who clearly you have met over your career, who have loved your books and seen themselves in your books. There is this very real sense about romance, that we are a rich community of readers who value the access that we have to authors and to storytellers. So I wonder if there are any stories that you have from these early days where you realize how committed and intense, sometimes intense, the romance community is and how... I mean, not to put too fine a point on it, but how awesome we are.
Sandra Kitt 00:47:43 / #: Well, one of the things I realized is that romance readers, women romance readers are absolutely devoted to the stories because of what it gives them, what all the stories gives them, which is a sense of what relationships can really be like, that it is possible to have a happy union and commit to it and hopefully have your happy ending. And the fact that it always, even today, outsells every other genre in publishing says volumes about relationships, the way boys and girls, men and women come together in relationships. And so when they read books about it where we make it successful, and we do, we make the story successful, they love that because it gives them hope. It gives them hope that if they don't have such a relationship now, it's absolutely possible that they could have it in the future. Or if they've had it once, it's possible to have it again if the first one doesn't work.
00:48:43 / #: So I think that what we as writers contribute to the culture of relationships and romance and love is significant. I remember back in the late '80s when I was really just getting started and people were really beginning to know my name, I once had a teacher said to me that she used to think of romances as being just trashy novels. And then she started reading them and she said, "I realized that my girls in school, these are important books for them to read because the stories were always pretty much middle class and higher, and because there was always a happy ending." She said, "This is their first introduction to what healthy men-women relationships could be like. The stories could be perceived as being a little bit of a fantasy."
00:49:42 / #: But she said, "These are pretty much on target. This is what we want. This is what we want in a relationship, a guy who's going to respect you, a guy who's going to make you laugh, who's going to talk to you, who's not going to play you. And so if they're 14, 15, 16 years old and they're reading these books, this is a pretty good start on what relationships could be like."
00:50:04 / #: And I really appreciated her telling me that. As a matter of fact, a podcast that I did last year through DePaul University, I think Sarah probably is aware of it, with Dr. Freeman Moody. And the reason why she reached out to me, I was the first person she taped for that library series. And she says, "I have been using your books in my sociology classes for years." Because she teaches it to Black students about relationships, about Black men and women and relationships. And I was so thrilled and honored. I mean, I had no idea that anyone was doing that.
00:50:46 / #: So clearly, what we do as writers really has a significant contribution to our development as human species who fall in love, break up, fall in love again. But love is always, always what it's about, is how do we connect to people and care for people? And the romantic part of it between a man and a woman, and of course today, it's between a man and a man and a woman and a woman and all kinds. I mean, the stories have really grown quite a bit in that area, but it's always about love and people just wanting to find someone to love them. So I'm very proud that I've contributed to that.
00:51:32 / #: Editors came to realize fairly quickly, and I've had several of them say this to me, "You're not really a romance writer." Again, because my stories were so much bigger, in-depth, complicated, different, very, very different. And someone at Harlequin, an editor I had at Harlequin, halfway through my nine years with them, said to me, this was interesting, she said, "Harlequin is never going to tell you this." She said, "You are one of their top 25 selling authors."
00:52:08 / #: And I didn't know that. Again, one of those things that you learned through the industry, but I just didn't know. I didn't know any better. I didn't know how you found out that kind of information, but an editor shared that with me because she said, "I love your stories." She says, "I'll tell this to you because Harlequin will never tell you, that you are one of their 20 best-selling writers." And that was, at the time, obviously things did change about that, but things like that made me... It gave me confirmation, it gave me affirmation that I really was on the right track, that I really was writing stories that had worth and that the readers loved and that were selling. I went to a conference once, I don't know if it was RWA or Kathryn Falk's Book Lovers Convention, which was a whole different species of conferences.
Sarah MacLean 00:52:59 / #: A real ride.
Sandra Kitt 00:53:02 / #: Oh, my God, talk about partying hard. And I had just done a workshop and I stepped out of the room into the corridor in the hotel. And it was very busy, women going back and forth, changing rooms for the next session. And there was this one woman who was standing off to the side, and she just kept staring at me. And she was white, very petite, she wore glasses, I remember exactly what she looks like. And she stepped up through the crowd to me, and I smiled at her. I just said, "Hi." And she says, "Are you Sandra Kitt?" And I said, "Yes, I am." And she stared at me. She said, "I didn't know you were Black." And I said, "Okay. Is that supposed to matter?" And she said, "I love your stories." And that was a revelation for me as well.
00:53:50 / #: She didn't know what I looked like, but she liked my stories and she had been reading them. What I always wanted to do and what I hoped to do was to always from the beginning, appeal to an audience of readers. I didn't care if they were Black or white, and my stories were never deliberately, specifically geared towards a target audience of Black readers or white readers. Since I wrote both kinds of stories, if they went out there into the universe and found readership, that's what I wanted. I have men readers. I just got an email two weeks ago from this guy in... Oh, my God. Oh, he lives in someplace like Iowa or Indiana.
Sarah MacLean 00:54:39 / #: An I state.
Sandra Kitt 00:54:40 / #: Right.
Sarah MacLean 00:54:41 / #: Oh, look, I'm in Illinois, so let's not one-line the I states, everybody. My goodness.
Sandra Kitt 00:54:48 / #: My lips are sealed, no more will be said. And he contacted me on LinkedIn because I have a LinkedIn account because I was a former librarian. And he said, "I just read your latest book and I want to tell you how much I really, really..." And he was white, by the way. He says, "I really, really enjoyed it." He says, "It was so well-done, and I believe the characters." He said, "Good job, good job. Keep it up. I'm looking for your next book."
Sarah MacLean 00:55:14 / #: "Keep it up."
Sandra Kitt 00:55:15 / #: Women don't talk about male readers who read their books. And I remember going through a period when I would have cops who read the book because someone said, "You got to read this book. It's about a white cop." So every now and then, I'd get an email or a letter from a cop who would say to me, "You got it good. You got the voice down. You got the culture." I did a lot of research on the cop culture, and I actually became very friendly with a few of them when I still lived in Brooklyn because they were very good about letting me come in and interview them whenever I was working on a new story.
00:55:50 / #: That for me, as a writer, is the best kind of testimony you can get as to whether or not your books work, when it's about people who understand the culture and come to you and say, "You did it. You got it right." Or people that I don't even know who take the time to reach out to me and say, "This is a really good book. I really enjoyed it. Thank you. I'm looking for the next one." I mean, that is gold, absolute emotional gold to me as a writer. And when I used to begin to feel a little bit insecure and wondering if my stories were still relevant, if readers were still reading them, something like that would come in to let me know, "There are readers out there who absolutely love your work." I still get letters from women who say, "I love The Color of Love. I read it six times. I still have it. My book is falling apart. What am I going to do? I need to get a new copy."
00:56:50 / #: That's why you do it. You do it for the readers who get your voice, the ones who you've managed to reach. You don't reach everybody, and I understand that, and that's okay. That's not my goal in life, is to come up to that kind of standard. But the ones who write me with such wonderful feeling and sincerity, that's what makes it all worthwhile. And that's where, for me, I've succeeded.
Sarah MacLean 00:57:21 / #: Yeah. So let's talk about some of... We're always very interested in communities of writers, and especially when you have a long-standing career like yours, surely there are people who have lifted you up along the way and who you turn to. Who are those people? And they are probably different now than they were then, but we're curious.
Sandra Kitt 00:57:45 / #: They are kind of. Don't forget that when I came into the industry, either as a young adolescent reader or eventually as a writer, I was still only reading books by white writers who were writing white characters. And as I've already said, Kathleen Woodiwiss, I absolutely loved her historicals. She didn't write that many, maybe six at the most. And then there was Georgette Heyer, whom I just adored.
00:58:12 / #: After that, I discovered Patricia Veryan. No one talks about Patricia Veryan. She was a British writer who wrote stories about different kinds of English history, whether it was Regency or some other period. She also was one who was well-versed in her own history. She eventually came to America after she began publishing, and she married an American. She lived in the Seattle area. She's been gone now for probably close to 20 years. But her books, her stories are priceless. They're probably hard to come by, but I just loved her stories because of the realism of the characters and how consistent they were.
00:58:57 / #: When I talk about how I actually began to become consistently a writer and wanting to continue to be a writer after those three books that sat on my shelf for so many years, I think of Janet Daly. I began reading Janet Daly, and I was drawn to her immediately. Her stories are fairly simple, but there's always a twist in the theme or the setting. Her stories were very, very much American story, I mean, about cowboys and the Midwest and all of that. But what I also liked about her stories is that they weren't founded on fantasy or too much of things happening in the story that, to me, was a stretch.
00:59:48 / #: These were people who were just everyday people. They could be your neighbors, people you work with, went to school with. And she was so good about developing characters that I always believed her characters, no matter what her story was. And she was really creative in the kind of story she told, and I really admired that. And of course, she was very prolific. At one point, she was Harlequin's top-selling writer.
Sarah MacLean 01:00:15 / #: Oh, yeah. Remember those 50 states? Did you read those 50 states books?
Sandra Kitt 01:00:18 / #: Exactly. Read every one.
Sarah MacLean 01:00:20 / #: I was obsessed with those.
Sandra Kitt 01:00:22 / #: Yeah, yeah, so was I. And I wanted to see if she was going to do all 50 states, and she did, which is quite an accomplishment, really, because it meant that she either had to know a little bit about or do research about what made each state unique. So to me, she was a good writer of the genre for her era. And one year, Harlequin... Not Harlequin, RWA had its national conference in Hawaii. It was the first time they'd ever gone out of the country for that. But what they were trying to do was to occasionally set the conferences in a part of a country where it made it easy for other people to get there. They didn't always have to come from California or all the way to New York, or they didn't have to come from New Mexico all the way to Chicago. And they set it in Hawaii so that people on the West Coast could come to the conference.
Sarah MacLean 01:01:13 / #: Everybody had to go, sure.
Sandra Kitt 01:01:14 / #: Everyone had to go. And also, because it was Hawaii.
Sarah MacLean 01:01:14 / #: And also, Hawaii. Right, I mean...
Sandra Kitt 01:01:14 / #: Exactly.
Sarah MacLean 01:01:18 / #: "I have to go to Hawaii for work," is a pretty [inaudible 01:01:21 / #].
Sandra Kitt 01:01:20 / #: Yeah, and then you write it off your taxes.
Sarah MacLean 01:01:21 / #: Exactly.
Sandra Kitt 01:01:24 / #: So I was at the conference and I was headed back to my room, and there was a woman waiting at the elevator. And as I approached the elevator, the doors opened and she walked in and I walked in. And I realized it was Janet. And while I had her in the elevator, I debated with myself for a few seconds, "Should I interrupt her? Should I introduce myself?" And I finally did. I said, "I just want to let you know how much I love your stories, and I wanted to let you know that I began writing and publishing because of your stories." And she just sort of... I don't know even know if she even said anything beyond, "Thank you." But she just stared at me as if she couldn't realize that someone was actually saying that to them. I don't want to read into it too much more than that.
Sarah MacLean 01:02:11 / #: Well, you know this very well, but the answer is, if you are ever in an elevator with an author and you want to say, "I love your work," you definitely should say that because we like that a lot.
01:02:15 / #: You should do it. Go for it.
Sandra Kitt 01:02:22 / #: Absolutely. So I was always happy that I got a chance to tell her that, particularly when I also felt that she passed away way too young. I was always happy that I was able to tell her what an inspiration her books and her writing was to me, and what allowed me to keep going in my voice and not try to write to trends or ideas or other authors, or even to readers. Just write your own story. Today, when I try to think about writers that I particularly like or who influenced me, of course, Jayne Ann Krentz comes to mind because she's just so amazing.
Sarah MacLean 01:03:01 / #: She's terrific, yeah.
Sandra Kitt 01:03:02 / #: She really is. I like Jayne Ann. She and I go back a long way because she also was a librarian, and she likes to tell people that. "Sandy and I know each other because we were both librarians." So she was an influence on me.
01:03:17 / #: There was another writer... Oh, her name was... She doesn't write anymore, and she didn't really write that many books. Her name was Anita Richmond Bunkley, African-American. And it was interesting, when she came into the industry long after I had been writing, her first three books immediately went to hard cover, and she was writing about unusual African-American history in the country. I think her first book, which she self-published, was called The Yellow Rose of Texas. And it was all about this Black family in Texas who discovered, I think it was oil on their property, which was very kind of unusual. But then it's what happens with the family and with other people trying to get the land away from them. And I remember reading this and thinking, "This is so well-done." And I was very pleased about seeing this new kind of story out there, Anita Richmond Bunkley. Then she wrote a couple of other books and kind of faded out from sight.
01:04:21 / #: And Sarah made note of the fact that a lot of writers who started out back in the day, many of them eventually stopped writing, for whatever reason. Maybe they had no more stories, maybe there were one book wonders, maybe life took a turn for them, or maybe they lost interest. Who knows? But there were many who really did very well for a short period of time, and then the candle burned out. I started out in the Arabesque line with a writer, and it's interesting, she had a pseudonym. Her pseudonym was Eboni Snoe, African-American.
Sarah MacLean 01:04:56 / #: Oh, yeah, sure. I've seen that name.
01:04:57 / #: I know that name, yeah.
Sandra Kitt 01:05:00 / #: It's terrible, but I can't remember her real name. I just remember that she had such a strong pseudonym.
Sarah MacLean 01:05:07 / #: Yes, it was perfect.
Sandra Kitt 01:05:10 / #: Right, it was perfect. And she had... Her signature piece was, whenever she appeared in public, she would dress very elaborately in long period dresses and big, big, big southern hats with plumes of feathers. She was a very, very pretty lady, and she was petite, so she could carry it off. So I'd do a signing with her, and there I am in my little mini skirt and little top and my jewelry, and there is Ebony in this huge hat and this lovely long close-fitting dress all the way to the floor. And I'm thinking, "They're not even going to look at me." But it was fun because again, she was a lovely lady, just very, very charming. I liked her very, very much and loved doing programs with her. We were actually good foils for each other because our stories were so different, and we did get a lot of attention when we did the programs. Donna Hill.
Sarah MacLean 01:06:11 / #: Oh, sure.
Sandra Kitt 01:06:13 / #: Donna Hill and I go back a long, long way, and actually, Donna began writing what they called... You know the romance magazines that used to come out?
Sarah MacLean 01:06:24 / #: With the photographs? Like the... Yeah.
Sandra Kitt 01:06:27 / #: Yeah. Well, she started writing for that in the late '70s, early '80s, but they... I don't know if I could consider them romances. It was a magazine.
Sarah MacLean 01:06:37 / #: Yeah, they were like fiction serial... They were fiction magazines. You would get them, and they were the size of an old Life magazine.
Sandra Kitt 01:06:44 / #: Exactly, exactly.
Sarah MacLean 01:06:46 / #: And they had photographs. They had clearly staged these elaborate photoshoots. I'm going to confess, Joanna Shupe, who is a wonderful writer, gave me one for Christmas last year that's like a very kind of Falcon Crest-y, this scandalous family on a vineyard, and it's magnificent. Anyway, so she wrote... Donna Hill wrote for those first.
Sandra Kitt 01:07:10 / #: She wrote for those first and then-
Sarah MacLean 01:07:12 / #: We have to get her on too.
Sandra Kitt 01:07:13 / #: Oh, she's fun. She's lovely. And as a matter of fact, I had reached out to her and she was kind enough to recognize me at a program recently, and she says, "Well, one of the people who was really there for me when I was trying to break into publishing," she said, "was Sandra Kitt. She would really take the time to talk to me." I did the same thing for Gwen Foster, who is now... I actually mentored her, and she passed away about six or seven, eight years ago. I've mentored Marcia King-Gamble, who is a multi-published writer who lives in Florida in Fort Lauderdale. So I'm proud of that also, of having mentored a lot of people.
01:07:56 / #: I remember when Brenda Jackson used to send me fan mail, and we would see each other, and she would always say how much she enjoyed my writing. And of course, she's gone on to be a stratospheric superstar. But it's nice to know that I've had that connection to so many other writers. Donna is definitely someone that you should talk to, and she's a lovely person. I think you can learn a lot and get a lot of history from her perspective. There's one who's... And I'm sorry for this, that I used to know. She was a Black writer, and she wrote for, I think it was a silhouette book that she did, but it was suspense and mystery.
01:08:39 / #: And she actually got nominated for an Edgar Award for the Best First Mystery, and she happened to have been the first Black writer who had been nominated for that. She didn't get it, but the fact that she was nominated was a huge coup for all of us, all of us writers. I really apologize for not remembering. Her last name was West...
01:09:00 / #: [inaudible 01:09:00 / #] not remembering her last name was West. Oh my God, it's on the tip of my tongue. And then in terms of just going back to Harlequin for a moment, they also had another black writer who came about in the mid- to the late-1980s. She was African-American, she was from Maryland or Virginia. She wrote under a pseudonym, and she wrote mysteries and suspense, and I think she wrote about four or five books for Harlequin. Once again, after that, she just disappeared. Don't know what happened to her, but she was African-American, and no one knows who she is because we were all under the radar to some extent. I think I was the only one for quite a long time where everybody in the industry knew who I was because I was the first. Everything that was happening at that time, I would be the first person at the table, the first person there. I was being interviewed extensively by television and radio and magazines, Glamour magazine, Essence. So I was out there. I had a most definite... I had a profile.
Sarah MacLean 01:10:13 / #: At the time, did it feel like you were leaving such a mark? Because it feels like, I mean, when Brenda Jackson and Donna Hill and others are all saying, "Oh, well, Sandra Kitt was my inspiration." I mean, clearly there is a Sandra Kitt mark.
Sandra Kitt 01:10:27 / #: And I didn't know that. I wasn't aware of that for many, many years because it wasn't something that I was consciously set out to do, leave my mark on history. I was just trying to maintain a career in writing and made sure that I was visible and that my books were being received and published and read. And so it was really a number of years later that people began to refer to me as a pioneer and the first and all of that. I've gotten several awards from Romantic Times for being a pioneer. And then it began to hit me when I thought about my history going all the way back to Vivian, that I said, "Oh yeah, you were the first to do this, and you were the first to do that."
01:11:19 / #: And then it began to click that I had a substantial footprint that had taken place in the genre. And I began to be... I was very proud of that once it really clicked in my head that I had that kind of a history. I was pleased about that for sure, and certainly pleased when someone like Donna or Gwen, they're doing a program and they said, "I just want to acknowledge Sandra Kitt because when I was first trying to get published, she mentored me and spent a lot of time with me talking about whatever." And it was unexpected, so it was wonderful. It really made me feel very, very good to know that maybe I had an impact.
Jennifer Prokop 01:12:03 / #: When you think about all the books you've written, what's the one that's your favorite or that you hope will outlive you?
Sandra Kitt 01:12:15 / #: Well, for sure Color of Love, because it was the first book I've ever written, and I wrote it from such a pure place. I didn't know anything about writing. I didn't know anything about publishing. I simply had a story, and I was very pleased and proud that when I finished that book at over 100,000 words, it was the story I intended to write. It had the trajectory for the characters, the ups and the downs, and the ending that I wanted, and I was just enormously pleased that I had been able to do that. Certainly the rest of my career I was very proud of just because of what I accomplished and just from being able to stay in the game for as long as I've been able to. But that one is definitely going to be the one that I'm going to take to my grave as the one that I remember.
01:13:09 / #: The other one that I'm very proud of was Adam and Eva because it was the first black romance that came out. And despite Harlequin's hesitancy about bringing the book out, and it did come out, it did very well for them. And then it went on to be published in Italy, they did a translation in Italy. So all of that's important. And at one point I was told, well, they now consider that one of Harlequin's early classics, Adam and Eva, because it was the first black romance that they had published by a black writer. So they did recognize that, and I was very pleased about that.
01:13:51 / #: Many, many, many years later, I went on to do a spinoff of the story. There was a little girl in Adam and Eva, and I had her grow up. And so I wrote a book, I think it was 2008, 2009, called Promises in Paradise, which was about little girl who became a doctor. She's an adult now, but it revisits Adam and Eva, who did have their happy ending. So I'm very proud of that story.
01:14:22 / #: More recently, I'm very proud of the book that came out this past April. I started writing for Sourcebooks, and I have a three book contract with them. First book came out in April, second book will come out next year. I'm starting to write the third one now. But the reason why I'm so proud of it is because I did such a good job with the hero and heroine. Whenever I have a chance to sit down and read the story again, I'm equally as surprised. I'm thinking, "Oh, this works. They really are consistent, and they're so cute together, and the hero has this great sense of humor."
01:15:06 / #: And so I was very happy about that because I had a very long hiatus from writing from about 2010 until 2018 when I got this new contract. And of course the first book didn't come out until 2021, just this past April. And so the fact that I was able to sort of get back in the saddle again, almost cold, and write this book and be very happy with it, and the story and the characters, was really very gratifying personally to me. So at this point, that's one of my favorites because it was like I reinvented myself or something.
Sarah MacLean 01:15:44 / #: Sandra, this is fabulous.
Jennifer Prokop 01:15:46 / #: Thank you so much.
Sarah MacLean 01:15:48 / #: I mean, what a joy of a conversation. Thank you so much. I'm so happy we get to bring it to all of our listeners.
Sandra Kitt 01:15:56 / #: Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it. I'm sure I didn't answer all your questions, and believe me, there's a lot of stuff in the... It was a long history, so there are a lot of things, but this was great.
Sarah MacLean 01:16:06 / #: Well, you're always welcome to come back. If you think, "I need to tell them that story," come on again.
Sandra Kitt 01:16:12 / #: Yeah-
Jennifer Prokop 01:16:13 / #: Exactly.
Sandra Kitt 01:16:14 / #: ... I would love to. I would love to.
Sarah MacLean 01:16:15 / #: Let us know, and-
Sandra Kitt 01:16:15 / #: I'll start reviewing it because I know there's a lot of interesting things that happened during my career. I never told you about Fabio.
Sarah MacLean 01:16:22 / #: Oh wait, no, we're still recording. Tell us about Fabio.
Jennifer Prokop 01:16:25 / #: Tell us about Fabio.
Sandra Kitt 01:16:30 / #: Well, he was delightful. He was handsome as anything. Very, very popular as a male cover model for historical novels. However, when I was writing for Harlequin, I did a book called The Way Home, and it came to me that his face, his persona, would be perfect as the cover model for the book. And this was another one of my novels where all the main characters were white. And I said, "But he has long hair" and-
Sarah MacLean 01:17:01 / #: Her face.
Sandra Kitt 01:17:01 / #: Right, and very solemn kind of, and I said, "I'm going to do this."
Sarah MacLean 01:17:07 / #: Oh my gosh, I'm looking at the cover right now.
Sandra Kitt 01:17:11 / #: But it's him. It's him. I don't know if you can tell.
Sarah MacLean 01:17:14 / #: I can, and it's amazing.
Sandra Kitt 01:17:19 / #: I loved it. I turned it into... When I turned in the book, I had his picture and I turned it in to Harlequin to the production company, and I said, "This is my hero. This is the model you're going to follow, but you're going to make him contemporary." So I said, "You're going to need to give him a contemporary haircut. Don't make the hair too short. I want it to kind of brush the collar of his shirt," and I said, "It's still his beautiful face," And I said, "He's going to have on dark glasses because he has a sensitivity to light because of an accident that happened to him."
Jennifer Prokop 01:17:54 / #: Was it a bird on a rollercoaster?
Jennifer Prokop 01:17:59 / #: Sorry, couldn't help it.
Sarah MacLean 01:18:01 / #: So rude. She's so rude.
Jennifer Prokop 01:18:04 / #: I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
Sandra Kitt 01:18:05 / #: I'm with it. I'm with it.
Jennifer Prokop 01:18:05 / #: I'm a lot of fun at a party.
Sandra Kitt 01:18:08 / #: And it came out, I was very happy, because I said, "Oh my God, it really is him, except he's got short hair." And so I was at another conference. This time it was a Romantic Times conference, and I don't know why I keep running into people in the elevator.
Sarah MacLean 01:18:24 / #: The elevator's where to be in all of these.
Jennifer Prokop 01:18:26 / #: Yeah.
Sandra Kitt 01:18:26 / #: Well, people are coming and going. Of course you stand outside one long enough, you're going to run into six people that you want to say hello to. And I was with Katherine, Katherine Falk, who has been amazing in my career. From the very beginning, she was on my side, incredibly supportive, included me in everything that Romantic Times was doing, so I give her really big thumbs up.
01:18:51 / #: But I was with her because we were going up to one of the suites where there was a party going to take place. And she says, and this guy was walking ahead of us surrounded by women, and she grabbed his arm and pulled him back. She says, "Fabio, you have to come with us. We're going to this really cool party." And I looked at him and I said, "You're on the cover of my next book." I said, "It's not historical, but I want you to know it's your face, because I made sure that they did it in the production." And he looked at me and he said, "Well, thank you." He didn't speak a lot of English at the time, but I had my little encounter with Fabio. He was perfectly charming, very nice guy. And he did come up to the party.
Sarah MacLean 01:19:35 / #: Listen, living the dream, a romance novelist who got Fabio on her cover, so...
Sandra Kitt 01:19:39 / #: I got Fabio on a cover, yes.
Jennifer Prokop 01:19:41 / #: Amazing. What a perfect way to end this conversation, honestly.
Sarah MacLean 01:19:46 / #: The best. Well, thank you so much, Sandra. We are-
Sandra Kitt 01:19:53 / #: Thank you.
Sarah MacLean 01:19:53 / #: I mean, this was the best.
01:19:59 / #: Listen. She's so cool.
Jennifer Prokop 01:20:01 / #: She's super cool. I know.
Sarah MacLean 01:20:03 / #: And also super stylish. You guys couldn't see the video, but at one point I was like, "I want to grow up and be Sandra Kitt," basically.
Jennifer Prokop 01:20:14 / #: Yeah, I felt a little bad because I really did come to the table dressed for Deadlands, so...
Sarah MacLean 01:20:20 / #: But it's fine. It's fine.
Jennifer Prokop 01:20:22 / #: It's not about us.
Sarah MacLean 01:20:24 / #: Listen.
Jennifer Prokop 01:20:25 / #: So before we start, actually-
Sarah MacLean 01:20:27 / #: Oh, okay.
Jennifer Prokop 01:20:27 / #: ... here's what I want you to tell us, because you invited Sandra Kitt to speak at the 2019 RWAs.
Sarah MacLean 01:20:35 / #: Yeah.
Jennifer Prokop 01:20:35 / #: So was that something like... You really, I feel like, put her on my radar, and maybe that's true for a lot of people. So-
Sarah MacLean 01:20:42 / #: I think-
Jennifer Prokop 01:20:43 / #: How did that come to be?
Sarah MacLean 01:20:44 / #: Yeah, gosh, that's a bummer. It's a real bummer that helped to put her on the radar for people, because I feel like I knew about Sandra Kitt for a long time, and I don't if it's because... I don't know why. I know if it's because I was reading Harlequin Americans back in the day and she was writing them, and it wasn't... Those were old, those books, those first books, but I sort of always knew she existed, and I always knew she was an African-American writer who was writing for Harlequins. I didn't know she was first.
Jennifer Prokop 01:21:22 / #: Okay.
Sarah MacLean 01:21:22 / #: That helped... We should probably name the people who were part of that group when Adriana Herrera and Alexis Daria and Tracy Livesey and LaQuette and Joanna Shupe and Sierra Simone and-
Jennifer Prokop 01:21:37 / #: Nisha.
Sarah MacLean 01:21:39 / #: ... Andie Christopher... Sorry?
Jennifer Prokop 01:21:41 / #: Nisha.
Sarah MacLean 01:21:42 / #: Oh, sorry. No, Eric can maybe stitch this in. And Andie Christopher and Nisha Sharma and I all got together to work on that RITA ceremony, which at the time was so important because we really wanted to talk about who built the house, which is what I've been saying this whole season. I went to Steve Amidon and I... Because I didn't know a ton about categories at the time, and so we put together this list and Sandra was so obviously the first. I mean, there was Elsie Washington, who unfortunately we lost, and Sandra, I didn't know-
Jennifer Prokop 01:22:28 / #: That was the first time I'd heard that story, right.
Sarah MacLean 01:22:28 / #: ... that she just wrote that first book and then just didn't want to do it anymore, although God knows I don't blame her. This is really very different than journalism. But I felt like... And then somebody said she's in New York, and it was just... I took her to lunch. I called her up and I said, "Can I take you to lunch?" And she came. And we went to lunch on the Upper West Side at this place... I can't even remember what it was called, but it was like we were in a corner. It was very New York. It was like a corner padded booth, and it had a white tablecloth and it felt very... We were having a business meeting. And she told me a few stories like the ones that she told today, and it just... What a glorious person she is, full of memories of people. She was the one who pointed me in the direction of Eva Rutland, who actually she didn't talk about today, but Eva Rutland was a black writer of Harlequin Historicals.
Jennifer Prokop 01:23:43 / #: Oh, interesting.
Sarah MacLean 01:23:44 / #: Or no, she wrote Regencies for Harlequin Historical. And I mean, they were Regencies with white characters. No one knew that Eva Rutland was a black woman who was also in her almost 80s and legally blind.
Jennifer Prokop 01:24:00 / #: Wow.
Sarah MacLean 01:24:02 / #: Yeah, and was writing these Regencies that people really loved. And so this made me think about... There are so many people. There are so many names.
Jennifer Prokop 01:24:16 / #: Yes, so many names.
Sarah MacLean 01:24:18 / #: And so whenever we talk to somebody like Sandra and others who are on our list... I'm so excited about some of these people. And when they say, " Oh, you should know about this person who very few people have talked about..." And she's so great, and I was so glad that she got to talk about Elsie Washington.
Jennifer Prokop 01:24:44 / #: Yeah, me too. And also about Vivian Stevens, because even though we've heard bits and pieces from people, I feel like it just adds that little bit of information every single time-
Sarah MacLean 01:24:58 / #: Yeah, and-
Jennifer Prokop 01:24:59 / #: ... about who she was and what she was trying to do.
Sarah MacLean 01:25:02 / #: Yeah, I mean, maybe at some point in the future, we really should put together-
Jennifer Prokop 01:25:06 / #: Like a supercut.
Sarah MacLean 01:25:06 / #: ... an episode that's just about Vivian Stephens, because I feel like we... I mean, you should all go. If you haven't gone and listened to the Vivian Stephens interview at the Black Romance Podcast, you absolutely should. We'll put links in show notes. But you start to see a very real picture of this wonderful editor come into play.
01:25:31 / #: You know, one of the things that has come up over a few interviews, and I think we've never kind of hit it hard on the outros, is the power of Romantic Times.
Jennifer Prokop 01:25:45 / #: Yes, and Katherine Falk.
Sarah MacLean 01:25:46 / #: And people probably don't even really know... I will say this. I think maybe when we recorded our Vivian Stevens episode with Steve Amidon, we mentioned Katherine Falk, but this woman was a powerhouse, but she was independent of publishing. She had this magazine, right?
01:26:09 / #: As far as I know, she was a fan. She just loves romance just like us. And she started a magazine called Romantic Times that then became RT Book Reviews. And when I first started, I mean, if you didn't get a good review in RT, you were toast.
Jennifer Prokop 01:26:28 / #: Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 01:26:30 / #: Because book buyers all across the country would use RT. And so they were the tastemakers. And I remember I started, and my dream was to be on the cover of RT because it was a real glossy magazine, and it would be like you'd get it and it would have Cathy Maxwell on the cover, or... And so it was like superstar time. And Katherine was... I've met her a couple of times. By the time I met her, she was an older woman. She, to my knowledge, is still alive, and she just loved this.
01:27:11 / #: And she had this annual conference, RT, that was the antithesis of RWA. RWA was a bunch of authors, very professional, going to be professional with each other, and RT was like, wear crazy hats, meet your fun fans, spend time with readers, go to parties, learn to make fascinators with Miranda Neville. It was a really different kind of thing. Fabio was always there in the early days. Apparently they had cover model contests. It was a scene. But Katherine Falk, she keeps coming up as a really supportive voice who lifted up authors who might not have gotten a publisher lift.
Jennifer Prokop 01:27:57 / #: Yeah. So interesting.
Sarah MacLean 01:28:02 / #: And I think... I don't know. I'm going to try and find her email address, I guess.
Jennifer Prokop 01:28:07 / #: Yeah, I think she's on our list.
Sarah MacLean 01:28:11 / #: Yeah, now she is. Yeah. Well, I think she's always been on our list, right?
Jennifer Prokop 01:28:14 / #: She's always been on our list. Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 01:28:19 / #: But gosh, and Sandra Kitt just dropping Isaac Asimov's name. Oh, he's staying up with Asimov and his wife.
Jennifer Prokop 01:28:27 / #: Neil Grasse de Tyson.
Sarah MacLean 01:28:29 / #: Listen-
Jennifer Prokop 01:28:30 / #: Neil-
Sarah MacLean 01:28:31 / #: These women, they all have great stories.
Jennifer Prokop 01:28:34 / #: Neil Tyson deGrasse. I can say words, everybody. I'm a little tired today.
Sarah MacLean 01:28:37 / #: Neil deGrasse Tyson. That's right.
Jennifer Prokop 01:28:39 / #: I said it wrong the first time.
Sarah MacLean 01:28:41 / #: You did it.
Jennifer Prokop 01:28:43 / #: Yeah, well, and you know what else I really loved is I... It's funny because today we talked a lot about the librarian connection... Or no, sorry, the lawyer connection.
Sarah MacLean 01:28:55 / #: Yes.
Jennifer Prokop 01:28:55 / #: But back then it was like all these really cool authors were librarians.
Sarah MacLean 01:28:59 / #: Everyone was a librarian.
Jennifer Prokop 01:29:00 / #: So cool. Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 01:29:02 / #: Listen, I'm for it.
Jennifer Prokop 01:29:04 / #: I am too. I am too. It's amazing.
Sarah MacLean 01:29:07 / #: So all of this is to say Sandra Kitt was as cool visually as she is orally, and Jen is going to come to New York, and we're all going to go out together.
Jennifer Prokop 01:29:17 / #: Yeah, it's going to happen. We'll take pictures and you'll all be jealous because it was amazing. And I just think-
Sarah MacLean 01:29:24 / #: She's really fun.
Jennifer Prokop 01:29:25 / #: Again, Sarah and I get off these calls and just look at each other like, "Oh my God, that was amazing," and we hope that you had the same experience.
Sarah MacLean 01:29:35 / #: This is Fated Mates. You can find at FatedMates.net. You can find us on Twitter at Fated Mates. You can find us on Instagram at FatedMatesPod, or you can find Jen and I just sort of wherever books are being talked about, generally. We hope you're reading something fabulous this week. We hope you enjoyed this episode, and if you just came to us for this particular Trailblazer episode, please don't miss all the others, which are equally as awesome. Every one of these interviews, every one of these conversations is magnificent. And otherwise, we will see you next week with something.
Jennifer Prokop 01:30:14 / #: Who knows?
Sarah MacLean 01:30:15 / #: We've got something up our sleeve; check show notes. And otherwise, have a great week.
S04.18: Jayne Ann Krentz: Trailblazer
Our Trailblazer episodes continue this week with Jayne Ann Krentz, who has done it all: writing for Vivian Stephens, writing historicals, writing contemporaries, writing space-set, fantasy, and paranormal romance, writing nonfiction about romance. In addition to managing life as JAK, Amanda Quick, Stephanie James and more, she’s also a legend of the genre because of her vocal resistance to the way society, literature and academia talks about romance novels.
In this episode, we talk about her journey and the way she continually reinvented herself to keep writing, about the importance of writers’ core stories, about genre and myth making, and about the role of romance in the world. We could not be more grateful to Jayne Ann Krentz for making time for Fated Mates.
Next week, our first read-along of the year will be Lisa Valdez’s Passion, an erotic historical published in 2005 that is W-I-L-D. There is a lot of biblical stuff at the world’s fair. Also some truly bananas stuff that…sticks with you. Get it at Amazon, Apple, Kobo, or B&N.
Thank you, as always, for listening! If you are up for leaving a rating or review for the podcast on your podcasting app, we would be very grateful!
Show Notes
Welcome Jayne Ann Krentz, she has had lot of pen names, including Jayne Taylor, Jayne Bentley, Stephanie James and Amanda Glass. Now she publishes under 3 names: Jayne Ann Krentz (contemporary), Jayne Castle (speculative fiction romance), and Amanda Quick (historical). She has said, “I am often asked why I use a variety of pen names. The answer is that this way readers always know which of my three worlds they will be entering when they pick up one of my books.”
We read Ravished for the podcast in 2021, or three decades ago. You know how it goes in these pandemic times.
People mentioned by Jayne: editor Vivian Stephens, author Barbara Delinksy, author Amii Loren, agent Steve Axelrod publishing executive Irwyn Applebaum, author Susan Elizabeth Phillips, author Kristin Hannah, author Debbie Macomber, author Christina Dodd, author Rachel Grant, author Darcy Burke, editor Leslie Gelbman, editor Cindy Hwang, editor Patricia Reynolds Smith.
Jayne Ann Krentz 0:00 / #
The thing about genre, the reason it even exists at all, is because it's the device and the mechanism by which we send our values down to the next generation. It's the way we affirm them to ourselves throughout our life, and it's the way a culture keeps its culture intact. It's the myth of the core value of that civilization, whatever it may be, that is going to go down through history and it survives or it doesn't survive, and that's what genre does, it carries the myth.
Sarah MacLean 0:35 / #
That was the voice of Jayne Ann Krentz. I am so excited! (laughs)
Jennifer Prokop 0:42 / #
Jayne Ann Krentz has written, probably, hundreds of romance novels at this point. Her major pen names right now are Jayne Ann Krentz, under which she writes kind of contemporaries, Jayne Castle is where she kind of puts all of her kind of speculative fiction novels, and Amanda Quick is what she writes historicals under, but she has been around for a really long time. She's going to start off by talking about her many pen names, which also include Jayne Taylor, Jayne Bentley, Stephanie James and Amanda Glass.
Sarah MacLean 1:13 / #
Amazing. This conversation, I've had the absolute joy of, you know, sharing meals with Jayne Ann Krentz, and so she is, I knew she was going to be remarkable, but this conversation really, gosh, I felt better for it at the end. I felt smarter about romance at the end, and I felt motivated in a way that I haven't felt motivated in a long time.
Jennifer Prokop 1:13 / #
Yeah, absolutely. Welcome to Fated Mates, everyone. What you're about to hear is our conversation with Jayne Ann Krentz which we recorded last fall in 2021.
Sarah MacLean 1:52 / #
Thank you so much for coming on and making time to join us for this. We're really thrilled to have you! We are avowed Jayne Ann Krentz, Amanda Quick, Jayne Castle fans. Stephanie James fans here! (laughter)
Jayne Ann Krentz 2:09 / #
Wait, let's not name all the names, that just makes me feel like I've been around forever. (laughter) I will say that was never the plan at the start. That was not part, there was no plan to be honest, but if there are any aspiring writers out there, one piece of advice for your takeaway today is for crying out loud, do not use a bunch of different pseudonyms! (laughter)
Sarah MacLean 2:34 / #
Well wait, so let's talk about that, because why not? You have, how many were there? How many are there total?
Jayne Ann Krentz 2:43 / #
Too many and the reason was because back in the old days, a lot of the contracts tied up your name, and if you signed one of those contracts, which of course I did early on, because I just wanted to be published, and it was like no big deal. Everybody writes under a pen name. And then there were two pen names. Because once you leave that house, they've got the name. It stays behind. I don't, I doubt that that appears in modern contracts, I have not heard of that for a long time. But back at the start of the romance rush in publishing, that was not an uncommon feature in a contract. So that's how it started, but it got worse because at some point, I managed to kill off a couple of names including my own. And you do that by low sales, you know, bombed out sales, which we'll get to when we talk about what a fool I was to go into science fiction romance, but it was a good way to kill off your career that time and I did because I wrote under my Jayne Ann Krentz name. So when I destroyed that, I destroyed my contemporary career, and it was at that point that I had to really retrench and figure out how to restart and reinvent myself and that was when Amanda Quick came along. So Amanda Quick is a legitimately acquired pen name, I did that to myself. Jayne Castle happens to be my birth name. I managed to sign that away for awhile, and then Jayne Ann Krentz is my married name. So I'm just under those three now.
Jennifer Prokop 4:28 / #
Now it's just the three, right?
Jayne Ann Krentz 4:30 / #
Yup. (laughs)
Jennifer Prokop 4:32 / #
So I was just thinking, was this only in romance? Did this happen to mystery writers or other genres?
Jayne Ann Krentz 4:41 / #
I don't know, but I'm willing to bet that it was pretty common in the paperback side of the market.
Jennifer Prokop 4:45 / #
Yeah. Okay.
Jayne Ann Krentz 4:46 / #
I don't, yeah, I think it was just kind of a common thing. If you look back, a lot of writers who are writing mystery and suspense today acquired a pen name at some point along the way.
Sarah MacLean 4:57 / #
So I always wondered, you know, you and I have had a lot of conversations over the years, Jayne, about patriarchy and romance, and I always thought the pen names were because of the books, but I guess mystery and sci-fi writers also did the pen name thing.
Jayne Ann Krentz 5:14 / #
The thing about a pen name, if you can get, if the publisher can get that into the contract, all a writer has is her name, and if they tie that up, you're tied to the house. It was just hard business, hard business is what it was.
Jennifer Prokop 5:29 / #
Well and I remember is an early reader of romance in the '80s, when you finally figured out, "Wait, this person is this person?"
Sarah MacLean 5:38 / #
Oh, it would blow your mind!
Jennifer Prokop 5:39 / #
Yeah, because then you were like, "Wait, there's a whole new someone I can look for in the bookstore," or the used bookstore especially, right?
Sarah MacLean 5:47 / #
Wasn't there a Romantic Times, somebody published, every year there was a publication that was like an encyclopedia of the romance novelists and it would say the names, all the names that that particular person was writing under, which when I started, maybe I started 12 years ago, and that was the time when if you wrote in different genres, which I feel like is the Jayne Ann Krentz way, you write a different genre you start a different name, but yeah, now, it's far less common, I think.
Jennifer Prokop 6:17 / #
I think it's common now. I'll tell you how it's different. I think when people self-publish, they sometimes pick a different name, and I think if especially if the heat level is really different, right? So I've had author friends say, "Well I'm going to try my hand at maybe something more erotic, and you know, is this going to interrupt my brand?" So I feel like it's so much more in control of the author, as opposed to control of the house, so that's a big change.
Jayne Ann Krentz 6:47 / #
Yeah, I think that's very true now. This was the way it was just done in the old days, and the rules were different then.
Sarah MacLean 6:54 / #
Yeah, so let's go back before you were picking pen names. So tell us about, we love the journey, so tell us about the journey. How did you become a writer? And how did you become a romance writer specifically?
Jayne Ann Krentz 7:11 / #
You know I think I just, there was never a point along the way at which I felt I could write romance better than books I was reading. I loved the genre. I found the books, I didn't really find the genre in the way we, anywhere near what we would identify it as today, until I was in, after college, until I was in my '20s. And then that's when I stumbled into Harlequin. They were the only game in town and they weren't even in town. And that was, that did me fine for few, I don't know how long it was that when I was reading them intensely that, before I wanted to try writing one. And it wasn't that I thought I could do it better than the big names at the time, I just wanted to tell the story my way. Most of the stories I was reading, well all of them, looking back on it I think, were very much the British take on the fantasy. And that's a very specific and very tweaked different take than what most American readers respond to.
Sarah MacLean 8:16 / #
Well can you explain, can you talk about that? What does that mean?
Jayne Ann Krentz 8:20 / #
Okay, the quick and easy way to understand it, is that in the British romance, your heroine is marrying up. She's marrying the duke or some version thereof. In the American romance, it's much more of a partnership kind of approach to the romance, and what matters is the man's competence. It doesn't matter what he does, he just better be damned good at it, and that's what counts. So it's a different take. There's also more sass in the American romance, and that may come from our good old 1930s movies, you know, those screwball comedies, and the fast chatter-chatter back and forth from the the 1930s romantic, and often romantic suspense films. I don't know where it came from, but it's just, it was in the American romance almost from the get go. The voice is so different, and it's more of a conversational quick repartee. It actually isn't original with us. I mean that's what Georgette Heyer was doing, but it kind of fell away in the British romance that I was reading and came back big time in the American romance.
Sarah MacLean 9:35 / #
And so when you talk about this, the American romance, these books that you were reading, we're talking about categories, the early categories? Or are you talking about historicals from the '70s too?
Jayne Ann Krentz 9:47 / #
I didn't start reading - (laughs) confession time.
Sarah MacLean 9:51 / #
(laughs) Good! Let's do it.
Jayne Ann Krentz 9:53 / #
I never read historicals. I wanted the contemporary story. I wanted romantic suspense and that was to be found in a contemporary setting in those days. So I never was drawn to the historicals until I managed to kill off my Jayne Ann Krentz career and I had to reinvent myself as Amanda Quick, and then I was starting from scratch because I had no idea how those books worked.
Jayne Ann Krentz 10:18 / #
So, but I'm a librarian, so...
Sarah MacLean 10:21 / #
Okay, so were you a librarian when you were reading and writing?
Jayne Ann Krentz 10:25 / #
Yes.
Sarah MacLean 10:26 / #
And so tell us where you were, and you were?
Jayne Ann Krentz 10:31 / #
Well, probably the lowest point of my library career was one year I spent as a school librarian. That's a calling, not a career (laughs), and I was not called. And then spent the rest of my library career at Duke University Library, and then later, a couple of corporate libraries out West here.
Sarah MacLean 10:54 / #
We interviewed Beverly Jenkins for the series, and she, too, was a corporate librarian. So I feel like there are all these little connections.
Jayne Ann Krentz 11:02 / #
Yeah. Well, that was the most boring work, actually, the corporate work. I mean it was a job and I needed a job, but for me it was much more interesting to work with readers, scholars, students, you know, people who were actually after information, not just the latest drawing for that particular gadget that they got to dismantle. But that's just me. I just happen to like the public work better.
Jennifer Prokop 11:32 / #
Jayne, we read your book, Gentle Pirate, and the heroine was a corporate librarian, I think, right? Was that around the time that you had that job? I mean, this would have been like the very early '80s.
Jayne Ann Krentz 11:45 / #
That was the first book I wrote that sold.
Jennifer Prokop 11:47 / #
Okay.
Jayne Ann Krentz 11:49 / #
There was another book that came out, actually a few months earlier, but it was actually sold after Gentle Pirate. Gentle Pirate was sold into the beginning of the Ecstasy line. That was the line that...
Jennifer Prokop 12:03 / #
Vivian Stephens.
Jayne Ann Krentz 12:04 / #
Vivian Stephens founded, Vivian Stephens was, you know, she really turned the whole American romance industry, book publishing industry on its head. She just totally changed everything. If it hadn't been for her. I don't know how it would have developed, but she was a game changer, and because of her, a lot of what we now take as familiar voices in the genre got their start. It started with Vivian Stephens.
Sarah MacLean 12:32 / #
Yeah, it was that first class with Vivian was you and Sandra Kitt, and Sandra Brown and...
Jayne Ann Krentz 12:38 / #
Some other names that have come and gone that were big at the time...Barbara Delinsky. Yeah, but I was thinking of Amy Lauren.
Jennifer Prokop 12:49 / #
We read that one, too.
Jayne Ann Krentz 12:51 / #
She was Book One, in that line, yeah.
Sarah MacLean 12:55 / #
So you were writing, so you sat down, you put pen to paper. Did you have people who were encouraging you? Was it a secret?
Jayne Ann Krentz 13:03 / #
(laughs) Of course it's a secret.
Sarah MacLean 13:04 / #
Of course it's secret! (laughs)
Jayne Ann Krentz 13:05 / #
You're not going to tell anybody you're trying to write a book until you've actually...
Sarah MacLean 13:11 / #
I don't know. I told everyone. (laughs)
Jayne Ann Krentz 13:17 / #
Back in my day it was not something you said anything, you just, the closest you would have gotten. and I tried a couple times and it was disastrous, was to attend a writers group, a local writers group, but I wasn't really welcome there, because I was really flat out trying to write genre fiction. And romance at the time, was of all the genres, the least of them in terms of respect, and everybody else was trying to write a memoir.
Sarah MacLean 13:44 / #
Still, that's still the case. Everyone in the writing group is writing a memoir. (laughs)
Jayne Ann Krentz 13:50 / #
And I didn't see that as very helpful. What changed that landscape, the business landscape, so that I stopped signing stupid contracts that tied up my name was, again, Vivian Stephens, because she was the one that got us all together for the first Romance Writers of America meeting. And that changed everything for all of us in terms of finally being able to learn about the business.
Jayne Ann Krentz 14:16 / #
Because I'll tell you, the publishers did not want you to know about how it worked. We couldn't read contracts. I mean, it's just this gobbledygook. They still are but now, at least, you've got an agent, usually to help you, or you can get a lawyer to help.
Sarah MacLean 14:29 / #
Right, well, this is important. So you didn't have an agent in these early days selling Harlequins?
Jayne Ann Krentz 14:37 / #
I did eventually but not at the very...
Sarah MacLean 14:38 / #
But most people didn't. They just sort of packed up their manuscript and shipped it off?
Jayne Ann Krentz 14:43 / #
I take it back. I had an agent for the first couple of books and she really ripped me off. So I like to forget that, it was not a good experience. And after that I went solo because I didn't trust agents for a while. So I didn't calm down about agents until RWA. The first meeting of RWA when the agent showed up and you could talk to one and, you know, that's how I met my current agent Steven Axelrod. So...
Sarah MacLean 15:09 / #
Who is an agent for many, many, many of the big names of the genre.
Jayne Ann Krentz 15:14 / #
He was at the time because he was one of the few agents who took the genre seriously and saw that it was going to go big once the US publishers got into the business.
Jayne Ann Krentz 15:27 / #
And so he, he just jumped in early. It was timing, good timing on his part.
Jennifer Prokop 15:32 / #
So going back to these first books you wrote, Gentle Pirate you wrote first? Or did you have things in the drawer that didn't sell? What was that sort of journey to actually getting a contract or actually selling those first books? Where did those stories come from?
Jayne Ann Krentz 15:50 / #
Well, the very first book I wanted to write was actually what we would call futuristic romance, and I wrote a futuristic romance. And tip number two, for any authors out there, it does not pay to be too far ahead of the curve.
Jennifer Prokop 16:07 / #
Yeah, not in genre.
Jayne Ann Krentz 16:09 / #
Yeah, you've got to hit the wave just right to make it work. But, um, but that didn't sell. And then what I was actually reading was contemporary romance, because that's all there was. The reason, to backtrack, the reason I actually wrote the first futuristic romance and had hopes of selling it was because I came across, I was on a student cheap ass tour of Europe, and somewhere on some sidewalk, one of those book kiosks, had some American novels and I was out of stuff to read. And the book that changed my life was on that kiosk, and it was Anne McCaffrey's Restoree.
Jayne Ann Krentz 16:11 / #
Which was, yes, futuristic romance. And I don't think it did her career any good either, because she never wrote another. She moved on to dragons.
Jennifer Prokop 17:05 / #
To great success, right? To great success.
Sarah MacLean 17:07 / #
I mean, who didn't love a dragon.
Jayne Ann Krentz 17:09 / #
But she wrote a really, what we would call today is, you know, straight up what I'm doing with Harmony, and the Jayne Castle name, very much. So that was the life changing thing about that. But after that realized that I couldn't really make a living on the futuristic books, but the thing I was actually reading was contemporary. And that's what I backed off and plunged into.
Sarah MacLean 17:32 / #
So, then walk us through...I have lots of questions. So you're there with Vivian Stephens, and you're the first book, Stephanie James has the first book in one of the lines, right? You have one of the number ones, correct? Or am I making that up?
Jayne Ann Krentz 17:48 / #
I can't remember.
Sarah MacLean 17:49 / #
I might be making that up, but I'm pretty sure you're number one somewhere. So you're writing categories, and you're how many, I mean, this is one of the things that I love about people who were writing categories. How many books? How many publishers are you working for? How many books are you writing a year? What's this look like?
Jayne Ann Krentz 18:07 / #
Well, keep in mind the books are a little shorter than what we think of as a full-length paperback novel. They were probably about 68,000 words. They weren't novellas by any means.
Jayne Ann Krentz 18:18 / #
They were not as long as a full length novel. So and the other thing factored into it, is that you couldn't make a living unless you did three or four year. I mean, if you're trying to make a living at it, you're gonna, and you couldn't build a brand.
Sarah MacLean 18:33 / #
Right. You have to feed the beast. That's what we've been talking about so much. And then at what point do you think to yourself, alright, well maybe, does single title, the bigger books come later?
Jayne Ann Krentz 18:47 / #
Well, there was no market for single title except historicals.
Jayne Ann Krentz 18:51 / #
And I had resisted writing those because I didn't read them, with the exception of Georgette Heyer, which I had read those long in my teenage years, and I didn't think they were modern romances.
Sarah MacLean 19:01 / #
Sure. Well, and they're not, right. They don't have sex in them. They're not quite the same as the modern romance.
Jayne Ann Krentz 19:07 / #
No, not at all. So then after I was a success in category, category, as the publishers were starting to do one-offs. They were starting to experiment with the single title, and they wouldn't let me do it because I was not quite ready.
Sarah MacLean 19:26 / #
Oh, those words, that you're not ready. You hear that all the time from people because there was this idea, would you explain to everybody kind of how the system worked?
Jayne Ann Krentz 19:35 / #
I think the editors didn't have a sense of what really worked in the books with the exception of people like Vivian Stephens. But most of the editors I worked with were not real fans of the genre. They didn't read the books, it was a job and they did it as much as possible by the numbers, because they didn't know, they didn't react to the books themselves. I think that limits your vision of, and then they read outside the genre, and it wasn't romance. So they had a vision of what books outside the genre was and it wasn't romance. So they were probably, in hindsight, were looking for something more along the lines of what we would call women's fiction. You know, big, big book, women's fiction.
Sarah MacLean 20:18 / #
To kind of break you out of romance? The idea was eventually you would be "good enough" and I'm using air quotes for everyone, to get out of romance.
Jayne Ann Krentz 20:27 / #
Yeah, but I didn't want to get out of it. I wanted to write romance.
Sarah MacLean 20:29 / #
Thank you for that.
Jennifer Prokop 20:32 / #
Yeah, thanks.
Jayne Ann Krentz 20:34 / #
And then what happened was, it was a publisher. It was Simon and Schuster, Irwyn Applebaum. He was a publisher at Simon and Schuster. What was the name? What was the imprint?
Sarah MacLean 20:50 / #
Are you talking about Pocket?
Jayne Ann Krentz 20:52 / #
Yeah, Pocket books. Yeah, yeah. He took the first risk of publishing romance writers in big book format and in hardcover, and they just went through the roof. And so he really, eventually, I was published by him, but back at the start I didn't have that good luck. But he's the one that I think, in hindsight, really opened up that market and basically proved to New York publishing that, yes, these women readers will pay full price for a novel.
Sarah MacLean 21:27 / #
So what is your first single title? At what point do you make that switch?
Jayne Ann Krentz 21:33 / #
Well, I guess the first single title will be the one, the science fiction that failed.
Sarah MacLean 21:36 / #
Right. So I'm going to hold it up. This, Sweet Starfire, this is what we're talking about. This is, I'm sure you know about this, The Romance Novel in English which is a catalogue from Rebecca Romney. She's put together a collection of first editions and important works from the genre. She's a rare books dealer, and we're obsessed, Jen and I are obsessed with this.
Jennifer Prokop 21:55 / #
Yes, we are.
Sarah MacLean 21:57 / #
So Sweet Starfire is, I mean, it's not the first time anybody's ever written science fiction in romance, but this is it, right? This, this feels like a moment.
Jayne Ann Krentz 22:08 / #
I think because it was it was a true romance, in the American style. It had everything that the contemporaries had, just a different backdrop.
Jayne Ann Krentz 22:20 / #
And what that brought to the plate was you could do different kinds of plots. You could open up the plots.
Sarah MacLean 22:27 / #
Well, the argument being that Sweet Starfire opens the door to paranormal, as we know it, right?
Jennifer Prokop 22:34 / #
Well done.
Sarah MacLean 22:35 / #
I mean, which is a thing, it's major! There, and, you know, maybe we would have gotten there probably to vampires and everything else, but we got there, I think more quickly, because of you. So it's my podcast, so I get to say it. (laughter)
Jayne Ann Krentz 22:51 / #
I've always divided what's, okay, what Sweet Starfire had and what all my science fiction has is a very psychic vibe.
Sarah MacLean 23:00 / #
Mm hmm.
Jayne Ann Krentz 23:01 / #
And I have always drawn a very bright line between the psychic and the supernatural. So when you say paranormal, I tend to think of the supernatural, I tend to shapeshifters and vampires and witches, which I love to read, but I can't write. They're not, they don't fit my core story. So I've always thought of it as a separate area, and then there's the psychic romance or whatever you want to call it.
Jennifer Prokop 23:27 / #
Which you're still, I mean, those are still the Fogg Lake trilogy, which the, is it the third one comes out in January?
Jayne Ann Krentz 23:36 / #
I just want to take a moment here to say to anybody in the audience, this proves I can finish a trilogy.
Jennifer Prokop 23:42 / #
Well done. But that, it is psychic. It's you know essentially, everybody, the conceit is a fog goes over this town from a mysterious governmental entity and a whole towns full of people develop sort of psychic powers. And then it's like the next generation and the fallout. So it's interesting to hear you draw that line all the way back to books you're writing in the '80s.
Jayne Ann Krentz 24:10 / #
Yeah, I've always felt that difference, but I don't know that readers see it. It's just as a writer, I'm aware of it. But I think the reason I've been attracted to the psychic vibe from the very beginning, is because for me, it enhances the relationship. It gives that extra level of knowing between two people, and connection and bond. And it gives me other plots to play with. It gives me a little outside the box plot sort of thing, I think. But I also think it has a, it works because it's just one step beyond intuition, and most people can get into intuition. Most people believe in intuition. So asking them to take the psychic thing is just that one step beyond, whereas they may not be able to do the vampire thing or the supernatural thing, that may be a step too far for a lot of readers. But I think a lot of readers are fine with the psychic vibe, because everybody thinks they've got one.
Jennifer Prokop 25:10 / #
Right. Fair.
Sarah MacLean 25:12 / #
Wait, I want to go back to it doesn't fit my core story. So you might be the first person who ever explained core story to me, at a lunch at RWA, which I'm sure you do not remember. But I want you to talk about what core story is for, I mean, for everyone, but also, let's talk about yours. Because you seem to know very clearly what your core story is.
Jayne Ann Krentz 25:39 / #
I think I'm pretty familiar with it, because I had to understand it at that earlier point, when I killed off my science fiction career and had to reinvent myself as Amanda Quick, and I had never written a historical. So what I did was, I looked at that science fiction book, the last science fiction book, which was Shield's Lady. And I stepped back and I said, you know, duh, if you take out the rocket ships, and the funny animals and the other planet stuff, what you're really looking at here is a marriage of convenience. And then I thought, well dang, I know where those fit. So, so it was understanding a marriage of convenience, built on mutual trust, is what led me down the road to historicals. And then I realized it's what I always do. And I think it's important for writers to have a sense of their core story. And if you know your core story, you can sum it up in two or three words max. That's how elemental it is, because it has nothing to do with backgrounds, it has nothing to do with plots, it has nothing to do with the eras that you're writing in, it's all about the emotions you're working with, and the conflicts that you're working with. My core story is always founded somewhere on trust. And that's, like, I can write forever about it, because that's pulled from the inside. It's just a deep, deep thing that I am always curious about, interested in, everybody gets violated at one point or another, has their trust violated, everybody's been through that experience. Everybody has taken the risk of trust. You have to do it daily, basically. So it's a risk we're all familiar with, um, and it can wreck a life or it can change a life. And to me, that's all I need. That's just plenty to work with. So I think once you find the conflicts and the emotions that you love to work with, you're going to be able to explore, that's your universe, is what it comes down to. That is your universe, and you're going to write in every corner of that universe, some corner, every corner, for the rest of your career. I think. (laughs) That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.
Sarah MacLean 28:00 / #
I think it's a great theory. And it also makes so much sense that you weren't interested in leaving romance, because trust and love go hand in hand so well, that it makes sense. So when you, I want to get to Amanda Quick, the choice to do the Amanda Quick switch. So you say you've killed off your science fiction career. You're not writing contemporary single titles at this point. Is that because they don't exist generally, or you're just not?
Jayne Ann Krentz 28:31 / #
You know I don't think so. I think they were all historical.
Sarah MacLean 28:33 / #
Still at this point.
Jayne Ann Krentz 28:35 / #
Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 28:35 / #
Okay, and so you decide, because this is the late '80s?
Jayne Ann Krentz 28:40 / #
Yeah.
Jennifer Prokop 28:40 / #
Yeah, it feels like the only person I could think of who might have been writing an occasional single title...who wrote Perfect?
Sarah MacLean 28:45 / #
Contemporary.
Jennifer Prokop 28:50 / #
Yeah, contemporary. It was Perfect and...
Sarah MacLean 28:52 / #
McNaught.
Jennifer Prokop 28:50 / #
Yeah, Mcnaught had a couple. And there were a couple...
Sarah MacLean 28:58 / #
But that's a different angle into it, right, because McNaught was writing those big epic historicals and then, so the idea of her being asked to cut 100,000 words out of her books to write category is, I mean, she just wouldn't.
Jennifer Prokop 29:12 / #
Sure. Not going to happen.
Sarah MacLean 29:13 / #
I think Judith McNaught's amazing, but I doubt she'd be very quick to be like, "Yeah, I can write it in a third of the words." So you, at what point do you know you've killed your career?
Jayne Ann Krentz 29:27 / #
The same way you always know it. I couldn't get another contract with that publisher.
Jayne Ann Krentz 29:31 / #
When they stop giving you contracts, that's a pretty big sign.
Sarah MacLean 29:34 / #
Pretty good sign.
Jayne Ann Krentz 29:37 / #
And that's when an agent really earns their keep, in a sense, because it was my agent who sold me as, I had to come up with a proposal he could work with, and it was the Amanda Quick proposal, for my first Amanda Quick book. And he just did a dang good job selling it to Bantam Books at the time, and he sold them without telling who it was.
Sarah MacLean 30:02 / #
That is a story you hear all the time.
Jennifer Prokop 30:05 / #
Yeah.
Jayne Ann Krentz 30:07 / #
And then once they committed to the book, then he could say, "Well, that's Jayne. Yeah, that's Jayne." So, but that's, that's, you know, he did a miraculous job of resurrecting my career at that point.
Sarah MacLean 30:20 / #
Not just resurrecting your career, I mean, suddenly, Amanda Quick, you know, is everywhere. Amanda Quick is one of, Jen and I both...
Jennifer Prokop 30:29 / #
Oh, yeah.
Sarah MacLean 30:30 / #
This is one of the names that we came to romance with.
Jayne Ann Krentz 30:34 / #
I think, I think what I just realized too late, probably should have realized earlier, was that the Regency, which is where I started, it is the perfect background for my voice, and it works just like the '30s is working now for that voice. It's a very similar kind of voice or of conversation and dialogue, just suits my style. Both eras suit my style.
Jennifer Prokop 30:59 / #
So as a writer, you're choosing to do something that's really out of your comfort zone, it sounds like. So how was that experience for you? Was it generative? Did you find yourself really? Or was it always like a I would love to get back to my roots? How did that, how did it go for you?
Jayne Ann Krentz 31:19 / #
Well I hadn't been there, so there was no roots to go back to, except the realization that the story I was telling fit that Regency in the way that the old Georgette Heyer had, that I kind of, that's what I clung to. What I worried most about because I was, am, are a librarian, was the research. And that was, to tell you the truth, is the reason I hadn't gone into the historicals in the first place. I had majored in history. I knew how complicated it was, but the lesson I learned very fast, was that when you write, when you write genre, you are writing not the real history, but you're writing the myth. And the myth of the Regency was already there because Georgette Heyer had created it so I just wrote on that.
Sarah MacLean 32:12 / #
So one of the things, when we read Ravished on Fated Mates, we did a deep dive episode on the book, and you know, we love it. And one of the things that we talked about was how, you didn't invent the bluestocking, obviously, Heyer was there before you but there is a difference. Amanda Quick comes on the scene, and suddenly it's like a door opens on historicals. And I'm wondering if you, does that, I mean, first of all, do you think that that's a good read on what was going on? Because it feels like prior to that, you know, you had all of the big, you know, the four J's and you had kind of other historicals that were doing a kind of different thing. And then in comes the Amanda Quick historical with the smart, you know, savvy heroine, the bluestocking, the hero who is her true partner from the start. I mean, going back to your core story now that you've said that, of course, right.
Jennifer Prokop 33:15 / #
Of course. Exactly. That's how I felt too.
Sarah MacLean 33:16 / #
But at the same, and so I, you know, I reread all of your pieces in Dangerous Men and Adventurous Women in preparation for this conversation, and we'll get there. But one of the things that you talk about is this idea of the hero as both hero and villain. He plays both roles. And I think that is really true prior to you in historicals, but he doesn't become the hero until much later in those earlier historicals, versus, you know, when you think about the hero of Ravished, he's a decent dude from the jump. And I think that is really, it feels like a Jayne Ann Krentz or an Amanda Quick Regency suddenly was doing a little bit of a different thing. Was that intentional? Or was it you were just doing the different thing?
Jayne Ann Krentz 33:19 / #
It was just intuitive.
Jayne Ann Krentz 33:26 / #
Because that's, that's the kind of character I'd always written. If you read my books from the beginning, my heroes haven't changed much over the years. You know, pretty much my heroes, they do what they do, and that they're infused with my core values in what I think works in the hero and same with the heroines. And I think if you respond to my books or any author's books, it's because, you're not responding so much to the story, the plot, the characters, you're responding to the core values infused into the primary characters. And if and if you respond to those values, you're probably going to go back to those books, that author again and again. If you don't respond to him, it's a boring book, and I think that's how it works. So if you read my books, it's probably because you got my sense of humor. And you have the same, you share a lot of the same core values. The thing about genre, the reason it even exists at all, is because it's the device and the mechanism by which we send our values down to the next generation. It's the way we affirm them to ourselves throughout our life. And it's the way a culture keeps its culture intact. It's the myth of the core value of that civilization, whatever it may be, that is going to go down through history, and it survives or it doesn't survive. And that's, that's what genre does, it carries the myth.
Jennifer Prokop 35:40 / #
I love that.
Jayne Ann Krentz 35:42 / #
That's my theory.
Jennifer Prokop 35:46 / #
That I think is really true. And when I think about myself as a romance reader for 40 years, or however long it's been. It's not that quite that long. I feel like I really do see that, like those arcs. But at the same time, I feel like there's so many ways I can talk about how romance has changed. So for you, what are the things, like they're still the big things that are the same? What are the things that have changed in romance, do you think?
Jayne Ann Krentz 36:15 / #
Those dang cell phones. (laughter) You laugh, but I'm telling you. I know, I know what you mean. And one of the tricks to success in this business is trying not to tie your story down to a particular era, unless you're really telling that era's story. I mean, if, you know, when you do the 1930s, you do the 1930s. But, but if you want the books to have a long life, it's best not to put in any gadgets or...
Sarah MacLean 36:48 / #
Celebrity names.
Jayne Ann Krentz 36:50 / #
Celebrity names, politician's names, history, local ongoing history. Keep it, the more you limit it to the myth and the mythical side of the story, the longer that story is going to survive. But that's, that's a whole other issue here. Clearly, the surface changes all the time. And that's just true of any genre. But the underlying power of the genre that you love to read, whatever that genre is, doesn't change very much. And so I'm still writing relationships that have to overcome the hurdle of trust, and it's not going to change. You know, that has nothing to do with politics or history or social problems. I think the more you deal in social problems, the more you move away from genre, in a sense, because you're dealing with the superficial again, you're back to what's current now, but 20 years from now, that won't be an issue. Some things will be issues, because they're they're universal things. I'm thinking now about women's voting, getting the right to vote. It's an interesting historical detail, and it's an important historical detail. And you can tell stories around it, because the Suffragette movement was so important, but it is, it's a different take. It's, I think what happens when you do that is like, it's like, okay, it's clear to see it set in, in a war. Any book you write set in World War Two, no matter what you do, the war is going to be the primary character. Nothing. In the end, there will be sacrifices, and everything will be sacrificed to doing the right thing in the war. Because that's the other thing that genre does, which is call upon its characters at one point or another, to do the right thing. And we have a sense of, a sense of what a real hero does when the chips are down. We have a sense of what a heroine is supposed to do when push comes to shove, and they do the right thing. That's how, that's, that's all that matters. And that works big time if you're setting the story against an overwhelming backdrop like a world war. It's Casablanca. You never see, you never see any fighting or shooting. It was one gun but you know what I mean.
Sarah MacLean 39:21 / #
War is everything.
Jayne Ann Krentz 39:23 / #
Right. Everybody sacrifices for the war effort. And it's just, I'll never write that story because it's not mine. That does not fit. It doesn't come back to the trust between two people that I want to write about. I can admire it, you know, it's not that, but it's not my story.
Sarah MacLean 39:40 / #
As you're writing, in your career, you know, you've spanned, you know, you started with categories, you've written single titles, you've written sci-fi, you've written historicals, you've written, you write contemporaries now, still. At what point in this journey are you thinking, "Oh my gosh, romance is a big deal. I mean, it's really, there are millions and millions of women out there who are reading these books, largely women."
Jayne Ann Krentz 40:09 / #
Guess when the big checks started coming. (laughter) You know, once the American publishers got into the market, it became a big business really fast, because that's just how the American market works. If it works, it explodes. You know what I mean?
Sarah MacLean 40:22 / #
Everyone's throwing books out all the time.
Jayne Ann Krentz 40:25 / #
You can clutter up the market in a hurry, you know, but that's kind of a normal process. And yeah, I just think that the process of becoming a big business happened really quickly, and simultaneously, or concomitantly, or whatever, right along with it, came the foundation of Romance Writers of America, which gave the romance writer access to information about the business. So we grew up with it, in a sense, that first generation of romance, American romance writers grew up learning fast.
Sarah MacLean 41:03 / #
Because at the time Romance Writers of America was about the business, right? It was about professional writers coming together to share, to information share.
Jayne Ann Krentz 41:12 / #
It was networking.
Jayne Ann Krentz 41:14 / #
We didn't, we didn't have that word for it, but that's what it was. And a lot of the friends I have today, I made back in those early days of networking.
Sarah MacLean 41:21 / #
So talk about that. What was this community like? Who were they? What were you getting from them? How are you interacting?
Jayne Ann Krentz 41:30 / #
Back at the beginning, only published writers were in the group. It later opened up to unpublished writers, but back at the time, we all had the same interests because we were all published, we're all dealing with publishers, we're all dealing with contracts, we're all trying to find agents, you know, that there was a lot of business to discuss, and the other organization, Novelists, Inc., also came along about that time. And gradually, I think people realized that romance writers had a lot of, all the same concerns and interests as the writers in the other genres. So there was some cross networking there too. It wasn't always comfortable, but you knew that there were other writers groups out there that had the same issues and and you could learn from them. So I just think it was the networking thing that today happens online. So it isn't maybe so necessary to have the organizations that, that we just didn't have that online option. I didn't know any other published writers until I went to that first meeting of the RWA, the very first RWA.
Sarah MacLean 42:38 / #
Yeah. Who is the group of people who keep you going?
Jayne Ann Krentz 42:43 / #
Well, Susan Elizabeth Phillips. Kristen Hannah. A lot of it is, are friends I know here, like Debbie Macomber, because we have a lot of us happen to end up in the Pacific Northwest. Christina Dodd. More newer friends who've come along right now, for example, Rachel Grant, who is doing a really interesting, modern, very modern version of the heroine who is an archaeologist, and it's kind of the new Amelia Peabody, but except very modern. And Darcy Burke.
Sarah MacLean 43:18 / #
Were there editors who you feel were essential to the growth, your growth as a writer?
Jayne Ann Krentz 43:26 / #
Yes, and to the genre, because I said back at the beginning, a lot of the editors were not people who actually loved the genre. For a lot of editors, it was a starting point in their careers, which they hoped to move on to other kinds of books, I suppose. But years ago, it's been a few decades now, I can't remember when, editors started coming into the genre, who like Vivian Stephens just loved the books, just have a gut way to buy the books, they can buy them by intuition, because they read the books, they knew how they worked. So editors like Leslie Gelbman, and my editor today, Cindy Hwang, who pretty much invented the whole paranormal publishing industry.
Sarah MacLean 44:14 / #
We should say Leslie Gelbman also edits Nora Roberts. So you've you've probably read something by Leslie Gelbman's authors before.
Jayne Ann Krentz 44:23 / #
And those editors, and they have in turn mentored a group of younger editors coming up, and they choose their people now. They choose their editorial staff knowing that they need writers, they need authors, they need these editors to bring in authors who will work long term, and that takes an editorial eye that loves the basic story.
Sarah MacLean 44:50 / #
Right. So there's this, it feels like there's this editorial mindset of building a career, of buying an author and shepherding. them through the journey.
Jayne Ann Krentz 45:01 / #
Yeah. Yeah. It won't probably last a lifetime, but their careers and the writer's careers in that kind of publishing are very intertwined. There is no getting around it. On the other side of the coin is the self-publishing, the indie published authors, who don't have that kind of connection, and it's a very different publishing world for them. It's an interesting, it's an interesting thing that's happened in the industry, because I think between the two, the writers finding editors who love the books, and the independent writers who don't need gatekeepers, which basically New York editing is a gatekeeping job. And agents are gatekeepers too. But the indie crowd doesn't have to worry about gatekeepers. So between those two groups, they kind of have revolutionized the whole romance genre, in that they have allowed an almost unlimited variety of experiments. And that has kept the genre, keeps it fresh, it keeps reinventing itself because it keeps going new places. Some of the other genres can't say that. They're much more hidebound, much more rigid, in what's acceptable. If you put a vampire cop into a traditional murder mystery, it's not gonna sell. They don't want vampires in there. They know what they want in their murder mysteries and it ain't vampires, but a romance reader will look at it. She may not like that book, but she'll give that story a chance. So the readers were inclined to be experimental too. They'll try something new. And that's, that's just been an amazing thing for the whole genre, because it keeps churning, it keeps changing. It keeps adding and experimenting, and one of the reasons we were able to do that, even in the early days, was because nobody cared enough about romance to make any rules.
Jayne Ann Krentz 47:08 / #
We skated under the radar, and it was very useful for those of us who didn't know there were rules. It's like, "Oh, okay." (laughs)
Sarah MacLean 47:16 / #
So let's talk about this, Dangerous Men and Adventurous Women, because I would like to hear the story of how this came to be in 1992.
Jayne Ann Krentz 47:30 / #
I think at that point in my career, I was very successful. I knew a lot of other successful writers. And as the saying goes, we didn't get any respect. And it wasn't that I wanted people to love my books. I understood, I don't read a lot of other people's books too, you know. I have no problem that you don't want to read the books, but the criticism was not proper criticism. It was not literary criticism. It was blowing off not just the the writers, but the readers, and the implication was, they're not well educated. They don't have a lot of money. They're, it just wrote everybody off from from the consumer through the writer.
Sarah MacLean 48:10 / #
And are you talking about specifically academics at this point? Or because there's a very famous late '80s study that came out about romance readers that presents them in this way?
Jennifer Prokop 48:22 / #
Is this Radway?
Sarah MacLean 48:24 / #
The Radway.
Jayne Ann Krentz 48:25 / #
No, I read the book and it's, okay, one of the things I learned about going into academic publishing, which I did one time and we will never do it again (laughter), is that you are expected to take a, what would be the right word, of philosophical slant, and then bring in the proof that shows that your take on it is correct. I've always felt that didn't really, wasn't very helpful, because you can make anything look right, if you bring in the evidence that you want to bring. (laughter)
Jayne Ann Krentz 49:01 / #
Yeah, so I didn't, I didn't, and that was what passed for serious academic criticism. That was nothing compared to the jokes in the newspapers on Valentine's Day.
Sarah MacLean 49:11 / #
Sure. I mean, which still persist.
Jennifer Prokop 49:13 / #
Yeah.
Jayne Ann Krentz 49:14 / #
No, it ranged across the whole scale. So at that point, I was still in my feisty mode, I guess. (laughter)
Sarah MacLean 49:22 / #
I love it.
Jennifer Prokop 49:23 / #
We're still in our feisty mode, so pass the baton right over. (laughter)
Jayne Ann Krentz 49:28 / #
Just go. Run with it. Run with it. But I had been in the business long enough to know that there was one editor out there who straddled both the academic and the genre, and that was Patricia Reynolds Smith. I had met her while she was working for Harlequin. And then eventually she moved into academic, she went back to her roots, which was academic publishing, and was with the University of Pennsylvania Press. So I called her up, and I told her what I had in mind, and I said, "Where would I take a book like this?" And she said, "Right here."
Sarah MacLean 49:29 / #
Terrific.
Jayne Ann Krentz 49:29 / #
So she really is the one I give full credit to for that book, because she knew how to organize it so that it looked academic, so that it was acceptable to an academic reader, and that it met their standards, as well as told our side of the story.
Sarah MacLean 50:25 / #
And it's interesting, because at the beginning of this book, the first line of this book is, "Few people realize how much courage it takes for a woman to open a romance novel on an airplane." And it felt, I mean, I read that again, you know, this week, and it just felt like a shot to the heart because it, I mean, we've all been there, right?
Jennifer Prokop 50:44 / #
And people still feel this way, right? And this 30 years later.
Jayne Ann Krentz 50:49 / #
Why do you think romance readers were early adopters of ebooks? (laughter)
Jennifer Prokop 50:53 / #
Exactly. None of your business, right? None of your business.
Jayne Ann Krentz 50:57 / #
Yup.
Sarah MacLean 50:57 / #
But the idea, this kind of transformational idea of turning the text around and saying you're missing the point. This is for the reader. This is about these women, these, largely, women who are experiencing these books, the mythology of these books, the power of these books themselves, privately, had to have been kind of earth shattering for academics, because that's not what they were talking about in those other books, which I also have read.
Jayne Ann Krentz 51:27 / #
Interestingly enough, we have several warmly received reviews from female academics. The harshest critics for that book that I recall, were male.
Jayne Ann Krentz 51:41 / #
And they just didn't get it. It just, even with all our careful explaining, (laughter) apparently we didn't explain it to a lot of men very well, but most of the women I talked to afterward got it.
Sarah MacLean 51:57 / #
Yeah. So you get to, you send out an email, or well, you don't send out an email. (laughter) Wait, how do you get all these people?
Jennifer Prokop 52:08 / #
Exactly!
Sarah MacLean 52:08 / #
Oh my god, what is happening? (laughing)
Jennifer Prokop 52:10 / #
You don't text your friends?
Jayne Ann Krentz 52:13 / #
This, this is that thing called the telephone.
Jayne Ann Krentz 52:16 / #
You dial it.
Jennifer Prokop 52:19 / #
I remember now.
Sarah MacLean 52:20 / #
So you start picking up the phone and calling you know, the biggest names in the genre. Elizabeth Lowell is in here, Mary Jo Putney. Susan Elizabeth Phillips.
Jennifer Prokop 52:28 / #
Sandra Brown.
Sarah MacLean 52:29 / #
Sandra Brown. Stella Cameron. And you say what?
Jayne Ann Krentz 52:34 / #
I tried to explain what I was trying to do. But I've never been the best proposal writer. In terms of explaining, I can write a proposal, but pitching it verbally has always been hard for me. But I, after talking to Pat Smith, the editor, I had a sense of how how to phrase what I was asking for, which is I'm not going to give you a topic. I just want you to tell me what you think makes the books work. What is the appeal of the romance? And 19 authors came back with 19 different essays, that all went together very nicely. It just, they just worked across the spectrum. And that book is still in the libraries today, academic libraries today. And then that was what sort of Pat Smith told me going in, she said, after I was exhausted, because this took a year out of my life.
Jayne Ann Krentz 53:27 / #
You try herding 19 authors! (laughs)
Jennifer Prokop 53:29 / #
Yeah, right. Before email.
Sarah MacLean 53:32 / #
Before email. (laughter)
Jayne Ann Krentz 53:35 / #
And then having to be the one to pass along the edits .
Sarah MacLean 53:39 / #
The notes! How dare you! (laughs)
Jayne Ann Krentz 53:45 / #
Without losing any friendships in the process? You know, it was, but everybody came through and everybody was very gracious about it. So it was an interesting experience all the way around. But she said, "The one thing about this book is that it'll still be around 20 years from now."
Sarah MacLean 54:03 / #
And it is. I mean, it was, I mean, it's been on my shelf since the very beginning of my career. So...
Jayne Ann Krentz 54:09 / #
Thank you.
Sarah MacLean 54:10 / #
I'm really grateful for it. So we talked a lot about what your core story is and what makes a Jayne Ann Krentz novel. I wonder if we could talk about your readers? Do you, I mean, one of the things that really struck me in Dangerous Men and Adventurous Women in your introduction, as I said, was centering the reader. And you're, you have this conversation in the introduction where you talk about reader service. And I wonder, we all know, of course, as readers and writers of the genre that readers are really drawn to romance and it's a very different kind of relationship that writers have with romance readers. Do you have any moments that stick out from across your career of times when you've heard from readers or really understood the power of the genre with them?
Jayne Ann Krentz 55:02 / #
I think the thing that surprises me the most, and other writers I know have the same reaction, is how often a reader will take the time to let you know that your book got them through a tough time. And I think it speaks to the underlying communication of the emotional core of those stories. When you are sitting by a bedside of somebody who isn't doing well, you want you want to read something that is speaking to your heart, and speaking to your emotional core, and affirming your own deep core values. And romance does that for women. It does it for men too, I think, but we haven't really gone there, you know, acknowledge this. I am, I'm always surprised at how many male readers romance writers pick up along the way. That they do respond to the books, and often it's the wife buying the book. And then he reads it at home kind of thing. It's an interesting play. I remember asking one male reader who came through an autograph line, he was really, really into the books that he was buying, and he was very excited. And I asked him what it was he, what spoke to him in the stories and he said, and his son was with him, and he said, "My father just came back from the war." This was, he was a Vietnam vet. And the vet said, "I just don't want any more blood." And so he got a story with a little mystery in it, a little suspense in it, a lot of action, but no really grisly, horrifying things. So there may be more of that kind of reader out there than we realize, because so much of modern romance incorporates an element of suspense, which is also that romantic suspense is a, I think, also a really core American story.
Jennifer Prokop 57:08 / #
Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 57:09 / #
That's fascinating.
Jayne Ann Krentz 57:09 / #
It's just very popular.
Sarah MacLean 57:12 / #
Jen has a whole - Jen, I know you want to talk about Vietnam, and you should ask your question.
Jennifer Prokop 57:19 / #
So my dad fought in Vietnam. And you know, I read, looking back, I am fascinated by how, so I started reading romance when I was probably 12 or 13. And this would have been like the mid '80s. And so many of these heroes were men back from Vietnam. And I am just personally really - and Sarah's whole college thesis was about Vietnam.
Sarah MacLean 57:48 / #
Women on the homefront during Vietnam
Jennifer Prokop 57:50 / #
Right?
Sarah MacLean 57:51 / #
Probably because of romance novels, I mean, of course, because of romance novels,
Jennifer Prokop 57:55 / #
Sure, of course, right? And I think for both of us, I mean for me, it was just really personal. I still don't really understand my father. And when I read books about war by men, I'm reading about combat, but when I read romance about men coming home from war, I'm reading about my family. And I think that, I've always joked, I'm getting a little weepy. It's hard to talk about, because I feel like my dad's really broken and he still is, and no one, love didn't fix him, right? And I know that that's why I get so angry sometimes when people are like, "Women reading romance." I'm like, "Look, I wanted to live out a world where it was possible for my dad to be fixed by love." And romance gives me that. And I think that I'm just really fascinated by the way that those Vietnam heroes, to me, turned into romantic suspense in a lot of ways, right? Like we, we put it back on page. So I don't know if there's a question there. I think it's your heroes meant a lot to me, because I felt like here's somebody who's talking about how hard it was to live with these men who had come back from war, and didn't know how to be parts of families anymore.
Jayne Ann Krentz 59:12 / #
Now, and that is a common story after every war. It's not just Vietnam. It's every damn war that sent them home. And what happens is, these broken men came home, and the women are left to patch them up as best they can. Sometimes you just can't.
Jennifer Prokop 59:27 / #
Yeah.
Jayne Ann Krentz 59:28 / #
You know, the damage is too great. And I think the books acknowledge that. They give a happy ending because that's what we're in the business of providing, is a bit of hope at the end. But even with the happy ending, if you say that's unrealistic, and I don't know that it is for everyone. I mean, that in your case, obviously, it was, for the real life. But what those books gave you was the fact that you were not the only person dealing with this. Women across the country were dealing with this, and not always successfully, and they acknowledge that pain, they acknowledge the problem, they acknowledge the damage. Yes, they've tried to fix it with love, but in a way, that's not why you're...
Jennifer Prokop 1:00:13 / #
That wasn't it, right. It was just that it was there.
Jayne Ann Krentz 1:00:16 / #
Other people acknowledged it.
Jennifer Prokop 1:00:18 / #
I often say that, if you want to read about miscarriage, you should read romance. Because it's another place where it's like, these things happen to people and we go on. And I feel like that's one of the things, to me as a reader, it's the, and I just don't think romance gets enough credit for really...
Jayne Ann Krentz 1:00:38 / #
It doesn't.
Jennifer Prokop 1:00:39 / #
Really saying, "Look at what we go through and yet we still persevere or trust each other or find a way." That's why I read romance. Every every single romance gives me that.
Jayne Ann Krentz 1:00:52 / #
Because it is affirming a positive core value. It is affirming hope, which ultimately is all we've really got. (laughs) But on the respect side, I will tell you one story that has stuck with me for decades now. And that was years ago, I was at a conference, one of those book fairs. Remember the big book fairs? Seattle used to have a big book fair. And I was...
Sarah MacLean 1:01:22 / #
Remember when we all went places and stood with other people? (laughter)
Jayne Ann Krentz 1:01:27 / #
Those were the days. But I was standing with a crowd of local writers of all genres, because we just have a lot of local writers here. And there was a very well-known science fiction writer, a very well-known mystery writer, a very well-known memoir writer. I mean, there was just a bunch of us standing around. And somebody started whining about how they didn't get any respect. And I being the only romance writer, and I figured I had the biggest...
Sarah MacLean 1:01:57 / #
Oh boy. Was it a man?
Jennifer Prokop 1:01:59 / #
Bite me.
Jayne Ann Krentz 1:02:02 / #
I kept my mouth shut, because every single one of those genre writers had the same experience.
Sarah MacLean 1:02:08 / #
Yeah.
Jayne Ann Krentz 1:02:09 / #
They might, in turn, have been able to look down on me, but by golly, they felt looked down upon. (laughs) That sense, and that was another insight into the fact that by and large, our country, our culture does not give a lot of respect to genre fiction in general, not just romance. We might get the sharp end of the stick or whatever, but there isn't really a lot of respect for the genres compared to the literary novel. And that, I think, is a huge misunderstanding of the purpose of genres, which, as I said earlier, isn't so much to capture a moment in history, it's to capture values and core cultural beliefs, and affirm them and transmit them. And that's really crucial to a culture. That's more important to a culture, than a piece of snippet of time of that culture, which will never be, will never happen again. So you can write New York City problems or LA problems today or tomorrow, and that's a piece of history that you're doing, but it's the underlying core values that will decide whether or not it's the genre or literary. I think it just has a really important place in our culture. Every culture has a version of genre stories, and that's how humans tell stories, and why they tell them, I think. Because it's really kind of interesting, when you think about why do we tell stories, you know?(laughs) And we, even if you don't read, you're gonna be exposed to stories, you'll be inundated with stories on TV. I mean, it's just roll through.
Sarah MacLean 1:03:48 / #
Well, we talk all the time about, you know, how romance really scratches a kind of primordial itch. It feels, it hits you emotionally first, and then the story waves over you, crashes over you. And I think that's the power of all genre, is this idea that the stories have to be compelling, they have to keep you interested, and you know, keep you turning the pages, in a way that, and I don't, I'm with you. I don't understand why that's somehow less valuable. It feels more valuable in a lot of ways.
Jayne Ann Krentz 1:04:24 / #
RIght. I think it's because there's so much of it. Humans, just in general, tend to blow off anything that's got tons of it around. And there we are inundated with stories from film, from TV, from audiobooks, from books. It's just everywhere, so we tend not to give it a lot of respect.
Jennifer Prokop 1:04:43 / #
So back to your books. Are there books of yours that you're the most proud of or that you hear the most from readers about?
Sarah MacLean 1:04:52 / #
Maybe those are two different books.
Jennifer Prokop 1:04:54 / #
Yeah, could be.
Jayne Ann Krentz 1:04:55 / #
I've always heard a lot about Ravished. And that's because it is the most fundamental version of my core story.
Jennifer Prokop 1:05:02 / #
Yeah.
Jayne Ann Krentz 1:05:03 / #
And that's it's beauty and the beast thrown in with the trust thing.
Sarah MacLean 1:05:08 / #
For me, it's because Harriet says, "Well, it's not like I'm doing anything with my virginity." (laughter)
Jennifer Prokop 1:05:15 / #
A classic line forever.
Sarah MacLean 1:05:16 / #
It's the greatest moment in romance history when Harriet says that! (laughter)
Jayne Ann Krentz 1:05:21 / #
What is this doing, yeah? So I hear a lot about that one. But to tell you the truth, I, the book I love best is always the one I just finished. And I suppose that's because it's the one that I just most recently wrote my heart into, you know. And people tend to quote lines back at me. I'll hear lines from books and forget I wrote the line. I think the only line I really remember writing, and it's only because I heard it quoted so many times after the book came out, which was, "Good news. She doesn't need therapy." (laughter) That was from Perfect Partners, and I've heard that line my whole life. (laughs)
Sarah MacLean 1:06:05 / #
Proof Jayne Ann Krentz is not from New York City. (laughter) So that's great. Do you feel like there is a book that you, is there a book of yours that you wish would outlive you? If you could choose one?
Jayne Ann Krentz 1:06:25 / #
It isn't, I don't think of my own books as being that kind of book that would speak to future generations. I don't, it'd be nice if it did, but I don't have a strong sense, it's not part of what I'm trying to write for. But what I hope outlives and lives on is the genre itself. Because I think the romance genre is probably the core genre from which everything else derives. You can't write any of the other genres without that core story of relationships. At least they won't be very interesting stories if you don't. [include romance] So I hope we never, I hope as a culture, we never lose the romance genre, simply because I think it is, it's a critical voice and a critical kind of story that we need, because it's all about the foundation of a union, a family and a community. And that core value is what holds civilization together. So there we go. We need romance to keep civilization going.
Sarah MacLean 1:07:38 / #
Amen.
Jennifer Prokop 1:07:39 / #
So much pressure.
Sarah MacLean 1:07:42 / #
I think that's a perfect place to end. Jen, do you have anything else?
Jennifer Prokop 1:07:45 / #
No, this was unbelievable. I'm going to go lay in my bed and think for a long time.
Sarah MacLean 1:07:53 / #
It really, it's transformational this conversation. It makes you think. I mean, when she said, "genre carries the myth." Stop it. I just, I immediately wrote it down on a post-it note.
Jennifer Prokop 1:08:05 / #
Yes. Well, I mean, so I said at the beginning that we recorded this months ago, right? We're actually recording the topper the week before it airs and this part. And I have been thinking about that part of the conversation for so long. Not only because I think it's so smart about what genre does and why it works the way it does. You know, specifically the thing that she said too about in genre characters are called upon to do the right thing.
Sarah MacLean 1:08:33 / #
Aww, right! It just makes sense!
Jennifer Prokop 1:08:35 / #
It's just to make sense, right? Like this myth making aspect of it. But next week we are going to be talking about a historical romance called Passion. And one of the things that we ended up talking about and I think we've talked about over and over again, is why it is that so many readers will come after historical authors and say, "That's not true." I think a lot of people look at it about like historical accuracy. But it's, when you think about it instead as being no, they're fighting. They don't like the myth changing on them.
Sarah MacLean 1:09:06 / #
They don't like characters doing the right thing in a way that, you know, they aren't used to.
Jayne Ann Krentz 1:09:11 / #
Or they don't like valorizing characters that they've never thought of as being...
Sarah MacLean 1:09:16 / #
Worthy of valor. Yeah.
Jennifer Prokop 1:09:18 / #
Yes. And so I was thinking about it so much as I was re-listening because I was like, this, to me really helps understand these are not people that are going to be swayed by, "Oh, but the word cunt has been around for, you know, hundreds of years!" Because that's not, it's not about historical accuracy. It's about, "I don't like that I'm not the primary character in this myth anymore.
Sarah MacLean 1:09:42 / #
Right. The hero of it.
Jennifer Prokop 1:09:44 / #
And I think that that then if you think about these changing mores as being these conversations are a proxy for not just how romance is changing, but how society is changing and who we make a place for, and who gets to be the star of the show? Then those conversations just take on a new kind of relevance and importance. One that I think I would approach in a different way, in the future, after thinking about what what Jayne said.
Sarah MacLean 1:10:13 / #
Yeah. I think that there is such power, I mean, clearly we talked about this in the episode with her, but there's such a sense with Jayne that she carried the banner of romance for a while. And she carried that banner because of this, because of her bedrock belief that romance and genre fiction are the successors of the core stories of us as humans.
Jennifer Prokop 1:10:43 / #
And the core stories of us as a society. right?
Sarah MacLean 1:10:46 / #
Yeah.
Jennifer Prokop 1:10:47 / #
I mean, lay me down. Even just saying it I got covered goosebumps, like, "Oh, that's what it is! Of course!
Sarah MacLean 1:10:53 / #
Yeah. I mean, and that's without even talking about core story, which she is so brilliant about. I mean, she was the first person who ever said, "core story" to me, I think. And talk about somebody who just understands her work.
Jennifer Prokop 1:10:53 / #
Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 1:11:04 / #
And never deviates from her path. And even with all, I had no idea that so many of these pen names came because she was quote, "failing," right?
Jennifer Prokop 1:11:25 / #
Yes.
Sarah MacLean 1:11:26 / #
That she had to restart her career so many times. The idea that Jayne Ann Krentz/Amanda Quick/Jayne Castle/Stephanie James had to restart, had to reboot is bananas to me, because I do think of her as being the best of us in so many ways. You know, especially coming off the re-read of Ravished that we did.
Jennifer Prokop 1:11:50 / #
We have talked a lot about the Trailblazers in terms of, offline, what are the things that keep coming up over and over again? Vivian Stephens, the role of those, Woodiwiss, right? The things that really were markers for so many of these writers, but the thing that I keep thinking about is, but what about our listeners or the, you know, new, young, up and coming authors to hear that Jayne Ann Krentz was like, "Yeah, I was a failure." I mean I was like...
Sarah MacLean 1:12:19 / #
"My agent told me I should try historicals, and we didn't even tell them I was the author." That is, aside from just being almost unfathomable, the other side of it is so inspirational!
Jennifer Prokop 1:12:37 / #
Yes.
Sarah MacLean 1:12:38 / #
You know, not to be cheesy about it, but the idea that she, that this kind of rockstar, a true Trailblazer, struggled over and over again and had to reinvent herself over and over again, it's really amazing. Especially because, on the the New Year's Eve episode, I said my sister was looking for an old Stephanie James. Which by the way, we think we found. We'll put in show notes. But there's this idea that failure to the industry also, is, looks very different to readers.
Jennifer Prokop 1:13:19 / #
Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 1:13:20 / #
Then failure to readers, because my sister, who is in her fifties, and read that Stephanie James book in the '80s, does not believe that that book, or Stephanie James are...
Jennifer Prokop 1:13:30 / #
No.
Sarah MacLean 1:13:31 / #
In fact, I had to tell her that Stephanie James was Jayne Ann Krentz. So she was like, "Whatever happened to her?"
Jennifer Prokop 1:13:36 / #
You're like, oh, it's better for you.
Sarah MacLean 1:13:38 / #
She did okay. (laughs)
Jennifer Prokop 1:13:40 / #
She's doing all right. That's the part I think that is really, in a lot of ways, just really almost wildly inspiring. Because I think it is so easy in our modern world, or wherever we are right now to think, if I don't, that it has to be a steady, upward trajectory. And if it's not, you know, if it's not that...
Sarah MacLean 1:14:08 / #
You're not an instant bestseller.
Jennifer Prokop 1:14:10 / #
Then you're a failure, and it really speaks to no, this is a marathon, it is not a sprint, and there are going to be times you're going to fall down. There's going to be times you have to, you know, reinvent yourself come up with a new name, abandon a sub-genre you love because it is not the right time to be on that wave.
Sarah MacLean 1:14:31 / #
Fantasy, I mean, speculative fiction, speculative romance, it still doesn't have a strong foothold, and it's not out of line to suggest that Jayne Ann Krentz is the founder of that particular sub-genre, and you know, still, we're still fighting for that to claim space there.
Jennifer Prokop 1:14:52 / #
So, I mean, I think that that's sometimes the hard part about romance is, you know, I think I'm a deeply pragmatic person, and sometimes I'm like, you know, the things I personally, as an individual reader want, like and think are great, or not what the market will bear right now. And you know what? Oh, well, figure out what is going on in the market right now and enjoy it 'til your thing comes back around. I don't know.
Sarah MacLean 1:14:52 / #
Yeah. And I think that that's kind of what I took away from this conversation, what I have taken away from most of my conversations with Jayne is you can have both, right? You can both write what you love, and write to market. I mean, there is a space for both of those things. But her pragmatism, to use your word, is a lot about sustaining a career. I mean, sometimes you write to market, because that's what the market wants, and you know, you can deliver it and you know, you can succeed with it. And you know, every one of those books makes room for you to write the book, you know, in space.
Jennifer Prokop 1:16:03 / #
The book, that right, eventually you hope to make room for. There was a part where she was talking about, we were like how's romance changed? And she joked and said, "cell phones," and she was really talking about, essentially, if you are right now, if you're talking about celebrities, or politicians or technology that exists right now, that it really limits you, because your, it kind of almost takes away from that mythological aspect.
Sarah MacLean 1:16:34 / #
Sure.
Jennifer Prokop 1:16:34 / #
And one of the things I found myself, everyone has heard me ranting and raving at some point or another about how annoyed I am when people are using really old pop culture only in their books, and I'm like, well, if you think about it as mythmaking, I guess people our age are really trying to entrench Ferris Bueller's Day Off and the American myth or whatever. But it's really interesting to also think about, I personally think still, when we see that disconnect between the author, and their personal myths, or cultural myths versus their characters, and this, so I just, I found this conversation with her to be so generative in thinking new ways about things that I spend a lot of time thinking about.
Sarah MacLean 1:17:21 / #
Yeah. Well, it's also that piece of, you know, the balance of doing the important, romance doing the important work of society, right.
Jennifer Prokop 1:17:32 / #
Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 1:17:33 / #
And also romance placing a character and a love story in a specific time.
Jennifer Prokop 1:17:40 / #
Right,
Sarah MacLean 1:17:40 / #
That, you know, 40 years from now, hopefully, we don't, we don't have that conversation anymore. So I think, I of course, always think about, you know, that is a struggle, that is a particular struggle with contemporaries, but it also is so important for us who don't, for those of us who don't write contemporaries to think about that, because the conversations that our characters are having on page. You know, the the work of the genre is to figure out how to have those conversations without aging the book, dating the book. And maybe sometimes that's impossible, you know, I don't know. I think about that Nora Roberts book we read where the hero smokes all the time.
Jennifer Prokop 1:18:23 / #
Sure.
Sarah MacLean 1:18:24 / #
And it's like, how could she have known?
Jennifer Prokop 1:18:26 / #
Of course. Well, and I mean, I think that's the part where it's like working too hard to make your books out of time sometimes means...
Sarah MacLean 1:18:38 / #
But sometimes, yeah, then you get like, I've been thinking about The Hating Game a lot recently, right? Because as you know, I love The Hating Game so much. And the movie, and one of the things that I think Sally made a real choice about is you have no idea, it's in a city, but the city is very amorphus, right? There's no, there's no city, because she didn't want to place it in, she didn't want to ground it in a place. And I think that there is a reason, that's one of the reasons why The Hating Game is a global success, because everybody can place it in their particular, the city they love the most. And then the movie, put it in New York, and it was like, oh, huh. Now these are New Yorkers in a car, you know?(laughs)
Jennifer Prokop 1:19:25 / #
Right, it changes it.
Sarah MacLean 1:19:26 / #
Why are they driving? (laughs)
Jennifer Prokop 1:19:28 / #
It's and these are I think, really, I mean, I could have this conversation over and over and over again. But I just, like I said, I think the thing that was really interesting for me is, I sometimes get really stuck in this conversation. I'm just you know, annoying the shit out of people saying the same thing over and over again, and I found this conversation with her to really give me new avenues for these questions and new ways to think about the genre itself. Well, I guess I would say also, thank you to everyone for letting me have my Vietnam moment again.
Sarah MacLean 1:19:58 / #
Hey, listen, I will, I will have you and whoever you want to talk to about Vietnam talk about Vietnam anytime. Yeah, but it's interesting because it proves that we don't know what we're doing all the time. It's the Venn, it's that Venn diagram, right? What your English teacher says the author was sure what the author was doing. And we don't know, because we can't, we, you know, that Vietnam thing is a perfect example of we know what we're trying to do sometimes. But when something that massive, you know, and I think about Vietnam or you know, COVID is happening around us, and we're not overtly talking about it, but it's in there, it's in all the text. And so there it is, right, the genre carrying the myth.
Jennifer Prokop 1:20:51 / #
Last week, I ended up reading this book, I actually don't recommend, called Everything and Less: The Novel in the Age of Amazon, and I found myself really having that moment. It's a nonfiction book by a Stanford professor, really disagreeing with a lot of what he said. And of course, then you can just, you know, take it to Twitter. And one of the things that he ended up talking about was the difference between, he admits that genre essentially is working, you can tell what genre's interested in only by looking at the collective.
Sarah MacLean 1:21:27 / #
I don't disagree with that.
Jennifer Prokop 1:21:28 / #
I absolutely agree with it. I was like, okay, we agree with this, but where we disagreed was him saying, essentially, he talked about Virginia Woolf and how, you know, Mrs. Dalloway, of course, is just superior, because it's the singular work of art as opposed to the genre, and I was kind of like, but that's what I'm actually interested in, is how that collective works.
Sarah MacLean 1:21:54 / #
Yeah.
Jennifer Prokop 1:21:54 / #
How does it work, that there is a hive mind where everyone is somehow chewing on the same thing? And I think Jayne answers it for us, right? We're grappling with our own mythmaking. And that is interesting to me, where this guy was sort of like meh, that's, you know, not interesting to him. It's just this totally different perspective. Mrs. Dalloway and genre can exist together. There's no reason to choose one or the other, we can have both. That's what's amazing about it.
Sarah MacLean 1:22:25 / #
One of the things that I've been really struggling with over the last couple of weeks, is, you know, this best of the year lists, right? Not the sub-genre list, not the best mystery of the year, the best romance of the year, but best overall books lists, which a lot of the publishing media are, they're kind of culling together. They, at the end of the year, they cull together what they believe are the best lists, the best of the books of the year, by virtue of what other, what the big critics have all named their ten best books, right? So it's, you know, everybody makes their list of ten, and the ones that are on multiple lists rise to the top. And so of course, if you have, say, The New York Times make a list of the 10 best books of the year, there might be one romance on it. It's rare, but there might be, you know, and other places, too. But that romance or that thriller, or that mystery, or that sci-fi novel, never makes it to that sort of, "and these are the 10 best novels of the year." And so I often think to myself, there's so much missing from these lists, and we know that by virtue of making a list, there's going to be stuff that's missing. But the idea that whole segments of mythmaking text, of myth text, is, are the myths of this time and place and society and culture are missing from these lists and just lost, right? Without Rebecca Romney, they're lost.
Jennifer Prokop 1:22:33 / #
Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 1:22:43 / #
What are we doing?
Jennifer Prokop 1:23:10 / #
So that's it. I mean, I was essentially having the same thought to myself, right. And I think, look, we obviously are genre fans for a lot of reasons, that we love romance for a lot of reasons.
Sarah MacLean 1:24:12 / #
But empirically, right. I don't read sci-fi, but I do think that surely there is a science fiction novel from the year that is remarkable and deserves to be held up as one of the best texts.
Jennifer Prokop 1:24:26 / #
I think, here's my theory. I remember when Stephen King used to be genre, and now he's like literature. And maybe it's just that there has to be, I don't know, maybe you just have to put in your time. I'm not sure.
Sarah MacLean 1:24:46 / #
I don't know. I mean, it's not like Nora hasn't put in her time, you know.
Jennifer Prokop 1:24:51 / #
I think there's a lot of you know, the patriarchy.
Sarah MacLean 1:24:54 / #
Oh, really? Do you think that? (laughs)
Jennifer Prokop 1:24:56 / #
I don't know. Maybe.
Sarah MacLean 1:24:57 / #
Anyway, Dangerous Men and Adventurous Women, it's awesome. And it's, every time we have one of these conversations, I think to myself, we're never going to get them all, right. We're never going to get every person who held the banner. But I'm really, really happy we got Jayne.
Jennifer Prokop 1:25:14 / #
Yeah, me too.
Sarah MacLean 1:25:15 / #
And I hope you all were too. I hope you were all inspired the way we were, and you know, overwhelmed the way we were.
Jennifer Prokop 1:25:23 / #
Oh, god, yeah. Even listening to it again, I was like, I'm just gonna sit here for a while. So brilliant.
Sarah MacLean 1:25:29 / #
We're so, so grateful.
Jennifer Prokop 1:25:32 / #
So before we go, it's worth saying that Jayne has a new book coming out on January 18, called Lightning in a Mirror. It is book three of the Fogg Lake trilogy, of which I have read all of them. I mentioned it actually on the episode. And again, this is part of a series that has to do with intuition and you know, like sort of some of the very things that she was talking about. So if you would like to prepare for that you could read the first two books, The Vanishing and All the Colors of Night and then prepare yourself for Lightning in the Mirror which comes out in a couple of weeks.
Sarah MacLean 1:26:07 / #
We are Fated Mates, you are listening to a Trailblazer episode, which we've been doing for all of Season Three and will likely continue to do until we die. (laughter) And you can listen to all the other Trailblazer episodes at fatedmates.net. You can find us @FatedMates on Twitter and @fatedmatespod on Instagram. Please tell us tell us how you're liking the Trailblazer episodes, shoot us emails if you would like Sarah@fatedmates.net or Jen@fatedmates.net. And tell us what you're thinking and shout about these Trailblazers because they deserve it.
Jennifer Prokop 1:26:51 / #
Next week is Passion with Lisa Valdez
Sarah MacLean 1:26:54 / #
Get ready. It's a ride. (laughs)
S04.04: Ravished by Amanda Quick: The difference between fossils and Fossils
At some point, we were going to have to talk about fossils, right? Ravished is the bluestocking book that started it all for Sarah, and an absolute classic for Jen. On the reread, we absolutely loved it, which just goes to show that Amanda Quick (aka Jayne Ann Krentz) is a total legend. We’ll talk about the appeal of big heroes who know what they want and just go for it, about how difficult it is to write two people who genuinely enjoy each other’s company from the jump, about how awesome it is when a heroine is totally down with doing it in a cave, and about the broad appeal of greatcoats.
Our next read along is Uzma Jalaluddin’s Hana Kahn Carries On. Find it at: Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo, or at your local indie.
Sponsored by Radish: Bottomless content; one cute app. Visit radish.social/fatedmates for 24 free coins and to read your first Radish story.
Show Notes
Ravished was originally published in 1992 by Jayne Ann Krenz, who has a lot of pen names, including Jayne Taylor, Jayne Bentley, Stephanie James and Amanda Glass. Now she publishes under 3 names: Jayne Ann Krenz (contemporary), Jayne Castle (PNR), and Amanda Quick (historical). She has said, “I am often asked why I use a variety of pen names. The answer is that this way readers always know which of my three worlds they will be entering when they pick up one of my books.”
The Bluestocking archetype is about a woman who is interested in science and learning in her own right, and is a reference to the Bluestocking Society, which was founded in the 1750s by Elizabeth Montagu and Elizabeth Vesey.
Some hallmarks of a gothic novel are “the discovery of mysterious elements of antiquity” and also handsome men in great coats.
All about the waltz and why it was so scandalous.
Jen’s thread about fossils, which are just a McGuffin.
Maybe you are more interested than Jen and would like to learn about how to fake a fossil.
Author Vanessa Riley is committed to reviving bananas regency names for men. In A Duke, The Lady, and a Baby, the hero’s name is Busick.
S04.02: Sandra Brown: Trailblazer
The Trailblazers conversations begin this week with the brilliant, fearless Sandra Brown—aka Erin St. Clair and Rachel Ryan. We talk about everything from her first books, acquired by Vivian Stephens for Candlelight Ecstasy, about how Slow Heat in Heaven was her personal game changer, about the beginnings of romantic suspense, and about what makes a Sandra Brown novel, the most recent of which, Blind Tiger, was released last month.
Thank you to Sandra Brown for taking the time to talk to us, and share her story.
We’ve got an interstitial episode coming your way next week, but our first read along (in two weeks) is Amanda Quick’s Ravished—which Sarah describes as “Harriet, in a cave, with a rake.” It’s great. Get reading at: Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo, or at your local indie.
You have two weeks to read, but in the meantime, sit back, relax, and let us give you a preview of what's to come! Don't forget to like and follow in your favorite podcasting platform!
Show Notes
Welcome to our first trailblazer, romance legend Sandra Brown. Her latest release is Blind Tiger, which was her 73rd book on the New York Times bestseller list. Blind Tiger is a thriller set in Texas during the 1920s.
Prohibition went into effect on January 1, 1920. In Texas, the town of Glen Rose was the Moonshine Capital of Texas.
The Ford Model T was the first mass produced American car. Here’s a video of the actual driving experience of the 1915 model. If you’d like to see a bunch of Model Ts in the same place, you can visit the winter home of Thomas Edison in Fort Myers, Florida. Henry Ford visited so often that he eventually bought the home next door. Prohibition and moonshining gave birth to NASCAR.
Sandra’s first books were bought by Vivian Stephens for Candlelight Ecstasy under the pen name Rachel Ryan. She wrote for Silhouette under the name Erin St. Clair, and for Pocket as Laura Jordan. Carolyn Nichols at Loveswept wanted authors to use their real names, and now all of Sandra's books have been rereleased under her own name.
Sandra appeared on the cover of one of her own Loveswepts, The Rana Look, with actor Mclean Stevenson.
Some of the romance authors Sandra mentioned: Paris Afton Bonds, Candace Camp, Mary Lynn Baxer, Nora Roberts, Jayne Ann Krentz, Barbara Delinksy.
Some of the thriller/mystery writers Sandra mentioned: Helen MacInnes, Evelyn Anthony, Gayle Lynds, David Morrell, and Lee Child.
Sandra Brown 0:00 / #
I think there were several of us who say, hey, we have romance roots, but we still love the mystery. We still love the suspense, we still love wartime books, or we still love, you know, spy novels, and so the way I felt about it was that the attraction heightens both elements of the story, because you're never more afraid than when someone you care about is in danger.
Jennifer Prokop 0:28 / #
That was the voice of Sandra Brown.
Sarah MacLean 0:32 / #
Welcome, everyone, to Fated Mates. I'm Sarah MacLean. I read romance novels, and I write them.
Jennifer Prokop 0:37 / #
I am Jennifer Prokop. I am a romance reader and editor.
Sarah MacLean 0:41 / #
And this week, for our first Trailblazer episode of Season Four, we are absolutely beyond thrilled to have had a conversation with absolute fucking legend, as Tom Hardy would say, Sandra Brown.
Jennifer Prokop 0:59 / #
We recorded with Sandra, in August, I think.
Sarah MacLean 1:04 / #
That sounds right.
Jennifer Prokop 1:05 / #
And we will be talking with her today about her life in romance, about her new novel Blind Tiger, about her many, many, many New York Times bestsellers, and just about all the amazing history and story she has, as a romance writer, and how she started in the business and where she is now.
Sarah MacLean 1:28 / #
I think that was the best part of the conversation. This sense that we were talking to somebody who knew everything. Had been there from the start, and really had a lot to say about how the genre has grown and where the genre was and where it could be.
Jennifer Prokop 1:45 / #
So without further ado, here is our interview with Sandra Brown. Enjoy it as much as we did everyone.
Sarah MacLean 1:57 / #
Well, we are thrilled to have with us Sandra Brown. Welcome Sandra.
Sandra Brown 2:02 / #
Thank you very much, Sarah and Jen, I've looked forward to this.
Sarah MacLean 2:07 / #
Well, we're super excited about Blind Tiger, which is, did I see correctly on your Instagram? It is your 73rd New York Times bestseller?
Sandra Brown 2:16 / #
As of yesterday, I found out that it will be on the Times list a week from Sunday, but we find out like 10 days before, as you know, and so yeah, like last night, we had a little celebration here because it's officially my 73rd New York Times bestseller.
Sarah MacLean 2:38 / #
Wow! I mean, living the dream!
Sandra Brown 2:41 / #
Well, thank you. I've been very fortunate and all the people that I've worked with, and my fans have followed me from, you know, one genre to another, one type of book to another, shorter books, longer books and Blind Tiger was the longest book I've ever written.
Jennifer Prokop 3:00 / #
Oh, interesting.
Sandra Brown 3:02 / #
Yeah. So it and in itself, it was so different because I kind of switch, you know, time periods. I went back 100 years. So that was kind of a, you know, leap of faith and a trust that my readers would follow me, and so I'm pleased to say so far it looks like as though they are.
Jennifer Prokop 3:24 / #
So what was it like to go back and do research for a historical again, especially in 1920? Which is, you know, you wrote historical historicals in romance, but to have 1920 be the year.
Sandra Brown 3:38 / #
It was hard, actually, but the reason I did is because when it got time last year, to begin my next book, I thought, how do you write a book where people are wearing masks and the news was so bad every night and I hated even watching the evening news because it always left me so depressed and in a bad mood, and I thought, you know, I want some escape, and I figured if I felt that way that readers would feel that way. So that what was happening 100 years ago, and lo and behold, things aren't that different. (laughter)
Sarah MacLean 4:15 / #
I was going to say, so you went back to a different pandemic.
Sandra Brown 4:17 / #
Right, a different pandemic. There was another women's movement that resulted thankfully and separate. Soldiers were coming home from a very unpopular foreign war with post traumatic stress, but they didn't even know the name -
Jennifer Prokop 4:34 / #
Have a name for that.
Sandra Brown 4:35 / #
At that point in time, and as if things aren't bad enough, nobody could buy a drink because Prohibition had gone into effect January 16th of 1920. So then I did, I just researched what was happening prohibition in Texas, which is where I live and who knew, but 50 miles down the road from where I have lived most of my life, was a town that was nicknamed the Moonshine Capital of Texas. (laughter)
Sarah MacLean 5:09 / #
Perfect!
Sandra Brown 5:09 / #
I thought, Little Glen Rose? And you know, had all these bawdy houses and speakeasies and a lots of moonshining, because geographically, it was perfect for it. So I started doing research on that, the more I got into it, the more fun I started having, but Jen, you asked me about the research. It was so fun in one way, but in another way, it's very time consuming, because I would have to stop and look everything up, you know, it was like, and at one point in time, I said, Laurel, my heroine, floorboarded her Model T. She drove a 1915 Model T, so after I'd written that scene, and I went back thought better do some deeper research how to drive a Model T.
Sarah MacLean 5:55 / #
Sure, because someone is going to email you about this car.
Sandra Brown 6:00 / #
And so, lo and behold, a Model T 1915 model had three pedals on the floor. One was the clutch on the left, in the middle was reverse, on the right is the brake. The accelerator was on the steering wheel. So you actually controlled your velocity, your speed, by levers on how much, you know, gas you gave it, was controlled by a lever on the steering wheel. So I could have made that really terrible mistake had I not gone back and checked that.
Jennifer Prokop 6:34 / #
Done that research.
Sandra Brown 6:36 / #
So I couldn't say that she floorboarded it. (laughter)
Sandra Brown 6:39 / #
My dad lives in Florida and we went to visit, I think it's Edison's Florida home, and there's a huge collection of Model T's there.
Jennifer Prokop 6:47 / #
And the whole time I was reading this book was really thinking, I wonder what it would be like if these moonshiners had access to a Ford F 150 instead? (laughter) Because these things, they really are small. I mean, it's really kind of a miraculous to think about, I mean, it seems so big and fast to them, but you know, to us.
Sandra Brown 7:10 / #
Well, one thing they did, and this was also interesting, Ford would sell the chassis, the main chassis, but people would adapt. Before they started making pickup trucks, per se, people would add beds onto their Model T and kind of customize them. So customizing your automobile is not a new science that we figured out this century. They were already doing it, and so they were very innovative even before Ford started manufacturing all these things. So all of these little facts, you know, came out and then the part about moonshining was really fun to research because most of the stories, the tales that people had to tell, I would just laugh out loud because you'd be like, you can't make this up! I mean it was wild, and in terms of the speed with which they had their cars to go, that's where NASCAR started was because the moonshiners.
Sandra Brown 7:18 / #
That's right. So our NASCAR came to be because moonshiners would soup up their engines to outrun the cars that lawmen had, and that's where NASCAR was born, in the Carolinas, actually, but yeah, so all of this was just fun. You know, it was, it was a fun departure, and I think from a creative standpoint, it's good for writers to try something different, to go at a different pace. I've always, throughout my career, just spanned 40 years now, but just to try something different to challenge myself. And I think the worst thing that a writer can do is to become complacent, and just rely on you know, their history in the marketplace, because the market is constantly changing. It's an evolution every day and it's a learning curve every day. So in order to keep up and to remain vital in the marketplace, I think it's good for writers to challenge themselves. I've never tried this, you know, wonder if I can do that, and at the same time, maintain the expectations of their readers. You know, so I think Blind Tiger, yes, it's set in another century, and yes, I had to do a lot of research on historical facts, but the bottom line is it still has, I believe, the trademarks of a Sandra Brown novel, that when one opens it and starts reading, they more or less know it's still a Sandra Brown novel.
Sarah MacLean 10:02 / #
Oh, 1,000%. We were talking about that before the interview, that we just, I felt like I just fell right into it, to the Sandra Brown world. One of the things that I think is really interesting about this, and you've written historicals before, this is not your first historical. People who listen to Fated Mates know that, and one of the things that I think about a lot as a historical writer is we tend to be judged. There's often a sense in the world that, oh well, when you're writing historicals, you're just writing, you're closing the door on current day and just writing the past, and I mean, we know that's not true. And one of the things that really echoed for me in this book was how current it felt in the sense of, as you said, a hero coming home from war, the Spanish flu. These kind of large scale things that felt so, it's almost impossible to read the pieces where, because Thatcher, our hero, has had the Spanish flu, and it's impossible to read that without thinking, oh my gosh, we're -
Sarah MacLean 11:06 / #
We're doing that now. So I wonder if you could talk a little bit about how modern the book is, too, in that sense. How are you thinking about the world that way?
Sandra Brown 11:16 / #
Yeah, well, thank you for that, but that's how I made my pitch to the editor. (laughter) Guess what? I want to do a historical, you know, and it kind of took him aback, and because he's only edited my contemporary, thrillers or suspense novels, and he said, "Well, like where to?" (laughter) "Where are you going?"
Sarah MacLean 11:44 / #
What are you doing, Sandra?
Sandra Brown 11:46 / #
And so I started drawing for him all of the parallels that we've talked about, and I said, and when you really get down to it, I said, Shakespeare would have made the same pitch to his editors, because the human condition does not change. It hasn't for millennia, you know, and so, when you, when you start talking about human emotions, they're all still there. Greed, lust, jealousy, rage, you know, sorrow, grief, all of these things are still identifiable by every human being, and so I think if you tell a story correctly, and if you reveal to your characters, the emotions, you know, to your readers, the emotions of the characters, then they're going to relate to that. Because if you have, if you lose someone dear to you, beloved to you, you're going to feel the same thing that someone did hundreds of years ago. You know, that hasn't changed. Human heart has not changed. And so even though our devices certainly have, and I can't tell you what a relief it was to write a book without everybody's cellphones. (laughter)
Jennifer Prokop 13:11 / #
I bet. I bet.
Sandra Brown 13:13 / #
Because I think technology, in some ways, has ruined suspense, because you can't make people disappear as easily as you used to. But in answer to your question, Sarah, the emotions, human emotions, if you tell a story well, and you really explore the mind and the heart of your characters, then the story should be relatable, no matter where it's at and what time period. And so I wouldn't give too much credence to someone who says well, you're leaving contemporary life behind, because when you strip it all away, we're people and we've been people for a long time, and we've experienced the same emotions at one point in our lives or another.
Jennifer Prokop 14:02 / #
Okay, so, my dad was a soldier in Vietnam, and one of the things Sarah and I have talked about, sort of over and over again, and I joke that if I ever got a PhD in romance, it would be about the Vietnam hero returning home. Is a lot of your early romances - most of them, featured men who were, who had been in Vietnam, and Thatcher is a man coming back from World War One, so is this something that is of particular interest to you? Or do you, like me, sometimes think this is just an American story? I mean, maybe it's a story everywhere, but a particularly American story, about a man coming home from war and not knowing where he fits in. Thatcher can't even afford to get home. They've taken his uniform from him, and I was really fascinated to think about that in parallel with some of your early romances.
Sandra Brown 14:57 / #
Well, that and that's true and I have to confess, I guess that's an accidental thing, Jen, because I don't really set out to make any kind of, you know, political statement. That's not my role. I'm a fiction writer. I tell stories, but it's interesting, now that you mentioned it, because I really, really hadn't thought of that. But I suppose because the Vietnam War was so, you know, part of my development, as when I was in, well, I guess, junior high, high school, college, and then early adulthood, I knew people that were lost, you know, in that war and, and it was so much of our culture, and it was so much of a culture change in our country. So I guess, in the background in my mind, that was omnipresent, didn't even recognize it, and it's interesting that you should say, because even recent books, the hero in Thick as Thieves is an ex-soldier. There have been many who have served. The character in Lethal, what was his name? Oh dear? Coburn! (she laughs)
Jennifer Prokop 16:23 / #
73 bestsellers later, you're gonna forget some names, right?
Sarah MacLean 16:26 / #
It's really fine.
Sandra Brown 16:27 / #
I have a little glitch every now and then. (laughter) Yeah, and so that influenced, you know, his character and how he was very tough and cold toward the world until he meets this little five-year-old girl who totally disassembles him. So it's, I think in the back of my mind, possibly, it's kind of that injured male, whether the injuries are physical or emotional or mental. It's kind of that, you know, the beast, that by the end of the book is more or less tamed, but there's a reason for the way he acts. And I think that war and war experiences, you know, play into that in some regard. But it's a subconscious thing. I really never had thought about it until you mentioned it, but now that you do, I can see, oh, there's a pattern there! Thanks for pointing that out.
Jennifer Prokop 16:32 / #
You're welcome.
Sarah MacLean 16:48 / #
It's interesting, because as I was reading Blind Tiger, and knowing we were going to have this conversation, I was thinking a lot about heroes in thrillers and mysteries versus heroes in romance and how that sort of loner archetype really fits both worlds, and what you, I think, do so beautifully, in all of your books, is you deliver your loner hero a community, in a lot of ways. And Thatcher, for me, feels like your romance roots, kind of delivering these thriller heroes a different kind of happiness at the end, a different kind of satisfaction.
Sarah MacLean 18:09 / #
But I also want to talk about your heroines, because for me, a Sandra Brown heroine always has a purpose outside of the hero. That has, I mean, as a reader that inspired me, as a writer. I said on Twitter the other day that you were one of the reasons why I write romance. I think your heroines have really kind of imprinted on me in a lot of ways, the DNA of the Sandra Brown heroine. You know, the heroine who is backed up against the wall, we love, Jen and I love a heroine backed up against a wall -
Jennifer Prokop 18:35 / #
100%.
Sarah MacLean 18:43 / #
Who ends up a bootlegger because that's the avenue and also she's super badass!
Jennifer Prokop 18:56 / #
The minute she learned to drive, but the whole part where she says too, I mean, there's a part, I wish I would have marked it, where she says, once she decided this was her task, she was going to be the best at it, and I was like, "There is a Sandra Brown heroine!"
Sarah MacLean 19:10 / #
That's the Sandra Brown heroine.
Sandra Brown 19:12 / #
Well, I have to admit, when I first pitched the book to my editor, and it was going to be Thatcher's story. It was going to be his story, but once I started writing it, as my characters typically do, they took over, and the book actually turned out to be Laurel's story. Because beyond not, you know, he changed careers from that of a cowboy, and we see the potential in him early on to do more than just go back to the ranch, you know, and do that and he would have been happy to do that for the rest of his life, but he didn't. When the book is ended, he's more or less the same individual that he was. He still thinks the same way, still got that laconic cowboy nature, that code of honor that he lives by. You know, I'm not gonna look for trouble, but you don't mess with me or somebody I care about, or you're going to be in trouble, and so we get that early on, and we still feel that at the end of the book. Laurel is the one who has the character arc. It became her book when she said, "You are teaching me how to drive." And her father-in-law starts sputtering and she says, "Today."
Jennifer Prokop 20:47 / #
Today. (laughter)
Sandra Brown 20:51 / #
We weren't going to and I thought, huh, she's kind of taken over this, and then I loved you know, all of the things that she does. The limbs that she goes out on.
Sarah MacLean 21:06 / #
I mean, the whole operation being her brainchild, the pies and the -
Sandra Brown 21:10 / #
It's not just to survive now, it's not just to put food on the table. It's I'm going to thrive, and if I'm going to do, if I'm going to be a lawbreaker, I'm going to be the best at it. And of course, and another element, which I believe it was one of the questions that that you were going to ask me, what makes a good romance, and we can get to that, but one of the main elements is that they need to be forbidden to each other. And so in every Sandra Brown book that I've ever written, I've tried to make it if he's a fireman, she's got to be an arsonist. For whatever reason, this cannot happen. They cannot possibly get together because they're on opposite sides of something. And in this instance, it was so obvious, you know, when I first started plotting it, and I thought, Okay, can I really do that with a heroine? Can I really do that? And yes -
Sandra Brown 21:21 / #
Laurel was like yes, you know, hell yes, if you're going to write me, then I'm going to take over. And she did. And, you know, I think every reader, I hope every reader, male and female, will admire her gutsiness. You know, they might not admire the enterprise, but they, I think they will admire and can identify with somebody who says, "Okay, I've been knocked down twice, really hard." And that doesn't even count her upbringing, her parents, you know, her domineering father. So, she's refusing and resolved never to depend on anyone to take care of her again, and I think that is a lesson in what contemporary women in our society are learning, is that you know, as much as you love somebody, as kind of someone is to you, but you need to be able, because you don't know what fate is going to throw on your path, you need to be able to take care of yourself. Not depend on other people, anyone.
Sarah MacLean 23:41 / #
It was a joy to read Blind Tiger, and to return to your books, to your historicals. I mean, as an adult, as an avowed, we did a podcast where I said it out loud, as an Another Dawn fan, here we go, yeah! A dusty Texas. I'm ready.
Sandra Brown 24:04 / #
So funny, a little backstory on that. I wrote Sunset Embrace, and I sent it into my editor at the time. They were published by Bantam, and my editor at the time, after a month or so had gone by and the book was in production, and she called me one day and said, "The ladies here in the office have a request." And I thought, you know, signing books for their aunts, their grandmothers, their moms, and she said, "They want you to write another book and make Bubba the hero." And I went, "Ah! Well, let me see what I can do."
Jennifer Prokop 24:54 / #
The ladies in the office always know.
Sarah MacLean 24:58 / #
They know.
Sandra Brown 24:59 / #
So I set out to plot Another Dawn, and it was difficult because I had to age him 10 years because, in Sunset Embrace, it was really kind of a coming of age book for him. So I had to age him 10 years, and I thought, "Do I really want a hero named Bubba? I think I'm going to have to give him a new name." (laughter) And so I did that, and then thinking of the plot, and the plot broke my heart, actually, and I think it broke the heart of a lot of readers.
Sarah MacLean 25:39 / #
Of a lot of readers.
Sandra Brown 25:40 / #
It was essential to his and Banner's book, you know, the plot development there. So anyway, thank you for the compliment. I love cowboys. I'm from Texas. I'm a sucker at cowboys, as Thatcher, as Thatcher is, you know. I loved his bow-legged walk and his cowboy hat and his spurs and all of that.
Jennifer Prokop 26:08 / #
Everything.
Sarah MacLean 26:11 / #
Same. Well, I would love to hear about your journey into romance, because we've talked on the podcast about how you were really there at the start of Harlequin American with Vivian Stephens. We talked about Tomorrow's Promise on the podcast.
Jennifer Prokop 26:25 / #
Loveswept.
Sarah MacLean 26:26 / #
Yeah, the early Loveswept books. So I wonder if you could give us a sense of, paint us a picture of those early years and how you became a romance writer.
Sandra Brown 26:36 / #
My first five books were for Vivian Stephens in another house in another line. It was called Ecstasy, and it was published by Bantam Doubleday Dell. And how all of that happened, first of all, I got fired from my job. And I was working in television, for the ABC affiliate here in Dallas, and they came through one day and fired all of us who were on-air contributors for this magazine show. They said they needed fresh faces. So God bless my husband, who's still my husband. He's put up with me all these years, but he said, "You know, you've always said you want to write fiction, and now you've got time and opportunity to do it." And I had two babies at home. I mean, they were toddlers, my children. And I said, "Gosh, but you know, I don't know how to, I don't know how to do that." He said, "You won't know if you don't try. And you can either keep talking about it or you can do it." So I sat down and proceeded to start writing, and he had a talk show. This is a long story. But anyway, he had a talk show in the morning. He interviewed all the authors who came in on tour. So one was a local woman who wrote romances. Her name was Paris Afton Bonds. She volunteered as a favor for him having her on his show, to read one of my manuscripts, and she said, "You ought to be writing romances." And I was like, "What's a romance?" I didn't know, but you know, and she said, "Well, like a Harlequin romance." And that Harlequin was the only show in town, and they were, of course, a British company, so most of their writers are British, but I went bought 12 or 15 of them, started reading them, I thought, "Yeah, I think I can do this." So I proceeded to and Paris invited me to go with her to Houston to a writer's conference.
Sarah MacLean 28:44 / #
Oh my gosh.
Sandra Brown 28:45 / #
And there I met a woman named Candace Camp.
Sarah MacLean 28:48 / #
Oh my god!
Jennifer Prokop 28:49 / #
Of course!
Sandra Brown 28:51 / #
Who had first published The Rainbow Season, and that was one of the best books I had ever read, and I loved it! I couldn't speak when I met Candace, Candy, I called her. I was just like, "Uhhh!" She wrote that book under a pseudonym, Lisa Gregory. So I met her at that cocktail party, and also at the cocktail party, I met a woman from a small East Texas town, that had a bookstore, Mary Lynn Baxter, who later wrote for Silhouette. And she said, "Well, I've read everything ever written, and I have the ear of every editor in New York. So when you get a manuscript you like, send it to me, and I'll read it and I'll tell you whether or not it's any good." So about three months later, she had given me your phone number, three months later, I called her and said, "Do you remember meeting me and dada - " and, "Yes! What have you written?" And I said, "Well, I'm going to send you something." And she called me a few days later and said, "This is exactly what a woman named Vivian Stephens is looking for, for a new line of romances called Ecstasy."
Sarah MacLean 29:56 / #
Oh my gosh!
Sarah MacLean 29:58 / #
I have shivers.
Sarah MacLean 30:00 / #
I know, this is the greatest story! Do you have five or six hours to stay with us? (laughter)
Sandra Brown 30:06 / #
Vivian bought my first book about two weeks later, and then 13 days, she said, "Do you have another one?" And I said, "Yeah, I'm finishing it up." And she said, "Well send it. Is it same orientation?" And I said, "Yeah." "Same level of heat?" And I said, "Yeah." So she, I sent it to her, and she bought my second book 13 days after the first one. So I sold my first two and then she bought the next three, and then she moved to Harlequin, and that's when she she bought Tomorrow's Promise. And so, by then, at that point in time, every publisher was developing their own line. Jove had a line called Second Chance, and I later wrote for them. Silhouette had a line - Pocket had a line called Silhouette, and then Silhouette Desire, and then, what was the other - anyway, ultimately, I was writing for four different houses under four different names, including my own.
Sarah MacLean 31:12 / #
The pseudonyms. I'd love to talk a little bit about that because, was it four different houses under four different names, because each House wanted a different name?
Sandra Brown 31:20 / #
Right, right. My first pseudonym was for Vivian for the Ecstasy line, and I used Rachel Ryan, because those are my children's names.
Jennifer Prokop 31:32 / #
Oh, okay.
Sandra Brown 31:33 / #
And it was a bribe. If you let mommy work, (laughter) and leave me alone -
Jennifer Prokop 31:41 / #
That's awesome.
Sandra Brown 31:42 / #
We'll go get ice cream, and I'll put your name on every page of the book. (laughter)
Sarah MacLean 31:49 / #
Oh my god.
Jennifer Prokop 31:51 / #
Perfect.
Sandra Brown 31:51 / #
I also felt Rachael Ryan sounded a whole lot more like a romance writer than Sandra Brown, but when I started writing for Carolyn Nichols, for the Loveswept line, Carolyn wanted to, instead of featuring the series, or making the series the selling point, she wanted the authors to be more spotlighted. She wanted the authors to be the prominent name and develop the trademark, of course, but also to really emphasize the individuality of the authors. And so she said, "I want to use your real name." And I said, "It's about time, too." You know, that idea. So that's the history.
Sarah MacLean 32:39 / #
So as we're talking about that question, I feel you you must know what's coming, but the Loveswept line, and them wanting readers to know authors, can we talk about this? Which is that Rana Look!
Sandra Brown 32:53 / #
You mentioned that to me. I had forgotten that. (laughter)
Sarah MacLean 32:57 / #
First of all, I love that you have forgotten this.
Jennifer Prokop 32:59 / #
Imagine being so cool that you forgot that you are your own cover model. That's all I have to say about that.
Sarah MacLean 33:07 / #
And we have lots of serious questions too.
Sandra Brown 33:10 / #
How did that come about? Honest and truthfully, I cannot remember. I just remember being asked.
Sarah MacLean 33:17 / #
I don't think you were alone, because I think Nora Roberts was also on one around the same time. I feel like they they did this with a few people.
Jennifer Prokop 33:25 / #
There were a of couple people, I think. There was another one, I can't remember the name though.
Sarah MacLean 33:28 / #
Beautiful writers got to play model.
Sandra Brown 33:31 / #
My hair has never been that long. (laughter)
Sarah MacLean 33:35 / #
I was going to say is this your actual hair?
Sandra Brown 33:39 / #
And I never had a dress that gorgeous either! So what I think they did, I think what they did is take our picture in that pose, and then they had, you know, the painting done, and it was a really pretty good rendition -
Sarah MacLean 33:57 / #
It's beautiful!
Sandra Brown 33:57 / #
Of my face, but I didn't have the hair -
Jennifer Prokop 34:00 / #
Flowing, locks.
Sarah MacLean 34:03 / #
We've talked about this on the podcast before, but this is McLean Stevenson from MAS*H, right?
Sarah MacLean 34:09 / #
Did you get to pick? Was he a favorite? Or were they just like, "Sorry, Sandra, you're going to have to be here with this guy."
Jennifer Prokop 34:14 / #
He's our local hottie.
Sandra Brown 34:17 / #
I don't know. I don't know how he got selected either.
Sarah MacLean 34:24 / #
He needed the press. He needed to hang out with you. He needed the glow up of Sandra Brown. So going back to those kind of early days, because we always think about that as it must have felt a little like there was an explosion of popularity, because prior to that it was so historic. We know that in the '70s it was big historical times, but this is really the burst of contemporary romance.
Sarah MacLean 34:48 / #
Did did it feel like it to you? Did you feel like you were on the precipice of something?
Sandra Brown 34:53 / #
Yes. In a way, because as I said, all of it up to that point in time, Harlequin published in London and in Toronto, and they had, I think the first American author that they bought was Janet Dailey. And I could be wrong on that, but I think that's right. And so it was like, well, duh, you've got a whole continent over here of women writers yet untapped. The competition among the houses, this is a great time to be starting, I've often said that I hit it at exactly the right moment in time, because the competition among the houses to sew up, you know, the Nora Roberts, the Jayne Ann Krentz, the Barbara Delinski, the -
Sarah MacLean 35:57 / #
Sandra Brown.
Sandra Brown 36:00 / #
I could go on and on and on, all the writers that, you know, came up out of this. And so it was very competitive among the houses to publish quickly. Well, I wrote like a frenzy all the time. I mean -
Sarah MacLean 36:18 / #
I was going to say -
Jennifer Prokop 36:19 / #
It must have been.
Sandra Brown 36:20 / #
When my kids got old enough to go to kindergarten and they were in school, because it was like I need to write without - so I think the year 1983, I think, which, oh gosh, that sounds so long ago. It was so long ago, but I think I had 11 books published.
Sandra Brown 36:46 / #
I had one a month except for one month, and so it was a juggling act. Each line, whether it was Silhouette, Loveswept, Second Chance, the American Harlequins, whether each line had nuances that were uniquely theirs, there was just something you know, a little bit different. And so I would tailor a story, if I thought of a plot, I would kind of tailor the story, oh, that would make a good Desire. Or, oh, that would make a good Loveswept. And then there were some differences in the lengths, so if a story was going to be a little bit longer, you know, I would tailor it. But it was a, kind of a juggling act. And I have to say, one lesson I learned early on, is I didn't talk about my business with anybody. I wouldn't share anything that I had spoken about with one editor with another. I kept very close counsel, and I wound up on speaking terms with everybody with whom I've ever worked. (laughter) I think one reason was because I didn't discuss my business, nor anyone else's with, you know, with anyone. So that might be a word of advice for a starting author. You know, hold your cards close to your vest and concentrate on your business and nobody else.
Jennifer Prokop 38:30 / #
One of the things that's really interesting, is you were just talking about how fertile a time it was for authors, but this is when, Sarah and I both kind of came up reading at this time. I mean, we were young. It's fine. It doesn't matter.
Sarah MacLean 38:45 / #
Barely even born.
Jennifer Prokop 38:46 / #
Doesn't matter. We were reading romances when we were 10, and I don't, I'm not sad about it. But I also think this was an incredibly, then fertile, time to come up as a romance reader. So can you - are there - do you have stories? Do you get letters from fans? These books mean something to people!
Sandra Brown 39:05 / #
Yeah, and it's so humbling. It really is. But before we had email and social media, you know, fan letters, I would collect them from the mailbox. And I would dedicate, you know, like one day a month to answer, you know, by hand, all of these letters. It took a lot of time, but right now social media takes a lot of time. So, you know, but I was always so touched by the stories that people would tell me about how my story affected them. And to this day, it's really humbling and gratifying and validating because I can bang my head against the wall, think nobody is going to read this crap. (laughs) This is just a, just another, unhhh! You know, trying to get it right. And I struggle with that. I struggle with the insecurity of I'll never write another, you know, sentence again. Every day I do that. But when you get a letter that says, "This touched me. It's such a needful time in my life." Whatever it is: an illness, the loss of a partner or child, or something really tragic. And they say, "Your books just saved me through this." And that's when it's like, you know, if that one person is the only person who took something from that labor that I put in, it was worth it. You know, it makes those long hours and days at the keyboard really, truly worthwhile.
Sarah MacLean 40:54 / #
We'll get to the shift, the way that you moved from romance, to thrillers, but I'm curious, particularly about readers and the separate genres, because it often feels when I'm at events, or you know, when Jen is at events, it often feels like people always say, "Oh, romance is totally different than everyone else." The thriller audience isn't like this. It doesn't become as personal. Do you, have you had that experience? Or because you're sort of still Sandra Brown? Your books still feel Sandra Brown-y. Do you still get the feedback?
Sandra Brown 41:28 / #
Sometimes, from really dumb people. (laughter) And I, you know, if someone says, "Well, I don't read those kinds of books." And I say, "Well, have you ever read one?" "No." "Well, then how do you know what kind it is?" (laughter)
Jennifer Prokop 41:46 / #
Right.
Sandra Brown 41:48 / #
You know, I'm less sensitive to it than I once was, because then in the same breath, they'll say, "Gosh, it but it must be really, you know, how do you write a book?" And I'll go, "Yeah, that's, that's kind of tricky." You know if it were easy everybody would be doing it, because the writer's life is a great life. So I kind of dismiss that anymore, you know, and, but because I know how hard it is, and my husband knows how hard it is, and my children and grandchildren know. And my colleagues that I care about deeply know how hard it is, and we commiserate. Sarah, you know how hard it is. And so it's, it's really, I just, I don't bother with that anymore. And also, I fall back on a book that really inspired me, and I thought, "You know what? You can combine thrillers and sex." And the book that did that for me was Eye of the Needle by Ken Follett. That was one of the sexiest books, because you talk about forbidden, and you talk about the isolation, which I always tried to build. You said you bring your character into a community and form a community around that character, is very insightful of you, because I do try to create a world where the rest of the world is kind of just disappeared. It's that world and the characters, it's a microcosm. They have good people, bad people, but their lives are really uninfluenced by much that's going on. It's within that tight community that they're orbiting. And so when I read Eye of the Needle, I thought, here they are. It's got all the elements I loved. They're alone on this island, nobody knows where. The communication is gone. The weather is prohibitive. They're forbidden to each other, and yet that allure, you know, just that allure, and of course, he's an assassin. He's a horrible person, but the love scene -
Sarah MacLean 44:30 / #
We're for it.
Sandra Brown 44:32 / #
You know, it's just great. And so I thought now if somebody like Ken Follett can do this - (laughs)
Sarah MacLean 44:41 / #
What if you did it!
Jennifer Prokop 44:42 / #
What if you did, right?
Sandra Brown 44:45 / #
So that book really influenced me a lot, in terms of you can mix the two, and it has to be, integrated into the story and when people are running for their lives, it's a little bit impractical and implausible to think, "Oh, timeout. We've got to have sex." You know, so - (laughter)
Sandra Brown 45:06 / #
We have a name for that, Sandra, "the danger bang!"
Sandra Brown 45:10 / #
(laughter) I've never heard that term before.
Jennifer Prokop 45:16 / #
You're welcome.
Sarah MacLean 45:18 / #
It's yours now.
Sandra Brown 45:21 / #
Here's the thing, and I've done questionnaires and things on this before and asked, did you realize you were creating a genre or helping create a genre? No. No. It was a subconscious thing and I'm given far more credit than I deserve, because I read Helen MacInnes. I read Evelyn Anthony. I read all of these writers, again, mostly British, who were writing basically books during the Cold War. It was after World War Two, but still that influence, you know, the Nazis, the spies, the all that, and they had wonderful sexy books! Especially Evelyn Anthony was a big influence on me, her books are amazing! And the tension, because here again, the forbidden, and so I really get more credit than I deserve, because I felt like I borrowed, you know, so much from them, from other writers, and from my contemporaries. I think there were several of us who saw, hey, we have romance roots, but we still love the mystery. We still love the suspense, we still love wartime books, or we still love, you know, spy novels, and so the way I felt about it was that the attraction heightens both elements of the story, because you're never more afraid than when someone you care about is in danger. Even more than yourself. So it heightens that suspense. It heightens please don't let anything happen, and it heightens the urgency. If this is going to be the only time we have, then we're going to make the most of it. So it heightens both elements. It heightens the relationship and it heightens the danger, because they work against each other, with each other.
Sarah MacLean 47:35 / #
As you're talking about this community of these other writers who were doing it at the same time as you, because there were, it felt like something broke, meaning the tide broke, and suddenly there was romantic suspense everywhere in the genre. Did you have a community of other writers who were doing the same thing? Who were the members of that community?
Sandra Brown 47:56 / #
Well, I have to say, I have to give credit to International Thriller Writers. I was asked very early on, Gale Lynds asked me, and David Morel, who I didn't know at the time, Lee Child, some of these that were saying, "Would you like to become part of this - we're going to form a league of writers called International Thriller Writers and we're breaking barriers." They did. I mean, it was like, we wanted to incorporate mystery. We wanted to incorporate suspense, it can incorporate fantasy, it can incorporate romance, but every book should be a thriller, no matter what book you're writing, it should thrill your readers. So they were very democratic, you know, in this organization, and I think they possibly as much, if not more, went out of their way to include writers from another genre that wasn't so steeped in espionage, or so, you know, which we called a mind thriller. They had horror writers. It was everybody, and so I really have to credit that organization a lot with bringing everybody in, and recognizing the contribution that women writers had made to the marketplace. They were really a fundamental group that brought to the publisher's attention, "Hey, we got all these great writers over here and guess what, you know, they're women!" (laughs) What a concept!
Jennifer Prokop 50:00 / #
When you look back on your career, is there a book that you can point to where you thought, "Oh, I, I'm feeling my direction change, and I'm moving away from straight romance." Or was it just really a smooth continuum for you? There's not a Slow Heat in Heaven was the one or whatever.
Sandra Brown 50:21 / #
Yeah, well it was Slow Heat in Heaven. (laughter)
Sarah MacLean 50:24 / #
There it is. That's the one we hear about all the time.
Jennifer Prokop 50:28 / #
All the time.
Sandra Brown 50:28 / #
Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 50:29 / #
I mean, it's the book you hear about when somebody says, "Sandra Brown," if you're not us going, "Another Dawn! Tomorrow's Promise!" (laughter)
Sandra Brown 50:37 / #
It was kind of a breakthrough for me, but apparently for a lot of romance readers, it was like, "What happened to that nice girl we used to know?" (laughter)
Sarah MacLean 50:53 / #
Yeah! It was so gritty.
Sarah MacLean 50:54 / #
I can still remember where I was when I read Slow Heat in Heaven. I was in my sister's apartment in Waltham, Massachusetts, sleeping on an air mattress, and there I was.
Sandra Brown 51:06 / #
I've been to Waltham, Massachusetts! Anyway, I remember, I had finished the Texas! Trilogy. Lucky, Chase and Sage, who were the most, they were the most fun books I'd ever written, and they are in their 45th printing domestically. And so they have resonated with a lot of readers, and I love those characters, and they were so much fun. And I think I only wrote one other Loveswept after that. And then I had signed a contract with, it was the Warner books at the time, and they, I had kind of gotten to where I was, like, you know, I've got to stretch. I've got to do - I had written like 45 romances, and I thought I really want to kind of get past these boundaries that you know now, anything goes, but back then it was like, you know, you can't do this, you can't do gun play, you can't, you know, language had to be controlled, and there were certain plots, I was, as I said, always giving my editors heart attacks, because they were going, "(gasp) Sandra!" and you know, one of the characters in Texas! Trilogy, the plot, she was married, and when I told my editor I was going to do that, well, when I told my editor, who was Carolyn Nichols, and when I told her, I said, "I want to do these books from a male point of view." And she said, "Well, you can't do that." And I said, "Well, you kind of can." (laughs) I can!
Sarah MacLean 52:52 / #
Let me show you.
Sandra Brown 52:55 / #
They're thinking such wonderful things. I think this would be and I want to make them longer, and I will throw in a third book. I'll give you a woman point of view, I'll give them a bratty younger sister, and so that's where that came about and -
Sarah MacLean 53:14 / #
That's so fascinating. I mean, that changed the game!
Sandra Brown 53:18 / #
I had to fight for that, and when I told her that the heroine, you know, in Lucky was going to be married, she said, "Your readers will never forgive you, if you use, if you have an adulterous, you know." and I'll go, "Carolyn, how many books have I written for you? You're just going to have to go out on a leap of faith on this." And so, you know, made it that way. But when I, after I finished all those romances, I thought, I want to do something where I don't have any kind of parameter. I'm having to stay with that. No borders. No fences. So I signed this book with, this deal, with Warner, to write a standalone novel, and it was Slow Heat in Heaven, what became Slow Heat in Heaven. And from the get go, I loved Cash Boudreaux. And I said -
Sarah MacLean 54:15 / #
Same. Obviously.
Sandra Brown 54:17 / #
I said, "This is gonna be the Sandra Brown hero. It's the one that needs redeeming.
Sarah MacLean 54:24 / #
And did you know in the moment? Were you like, "Oh, I knew I was writing "the book.""
Sandra Brown 54:30 / #
The minute he showed up with that hoe across his shoulders and then he kills the snake. And I thought, "This is the Sandra Brown hero." And it's the one that, you know, needs love, that needs to be loved. It's hardened by life and the -
Sarah MacLean 54:54 / #
Poor baby. Poor baby. Also, someone else kills a snake.
Jennifer Prokop 54:58 / #
Thatcher kills a snake too. So you're going back to your roots. You might not know, but we do. (laughter)
Sarah MacLean 55:05 / #
We're paying close attention here.
Sandra Brown 55:07 / #
I thought it the minute he walked on the page, and a lot of people, you know, it took them so aback. The sexuality was a whole lot more graphic and everything, but I remember you had Susan Elizabeth Phillips on.
Sandra Brown 55:24 / #
And I definitely remember a, I guess it was Romance Writers of America, some writer's conference, where she and I were both attending, and I think that's first time I met her. I think it was. Maybe not, but anyway, we were both there, and we were very friendly. Love her. Still love her. Sterling lady. And she was making a speech at lunch. She was the keynote speaker. And she was going on about she said, "We as writers have to be fearless. We have to be fearless. We can't be inhibited by our own timidity." And that was her point, you know, be fearless. She said, "I have a post it note on my computer screen, "be fearless."" You know, take the chance. And she said, "Sandra Brown." (laughter)
Sarah MacLean 56:26 / #
She called you out.
Sandra Brown 56:27 / #
Strawberry shortcake is - (laughter) and she said, "She shocked us all with Slow Heat in Heaven." And she said romance readers all over the country were saying, "(Gasp!) How dare she?" And she said they couldn't get enough of it.
Jennifer Prokop 56:53 / #
How dare she. Can I have some more? Yeah.
Sandra Brown 56:56 / #
And so she said and it was kind of, it was definitely a turning point in my career, but it was also a book, that as you both have mentioned, kind of put readers back on their heels with what, I didn't know you could do this, you know.
Sarah MacLean 57:13 / #
It felt different.
Jennifer Prokop 57:14 / #
It did.
Sarah MacLean 57:14 / #
It was different. It's interesting because you brought up the Texas! Trilogy, and I feel like in Texas! Chase, which we did a deep dive episode on, so we read it and thought about it. You were moving into romantic suspense. There are too, there's a whole stalker -
Sarah MacLean 57:34 / #
Threadline through that book, and it's clear that that was the path you were on, even before.
Sandra Brown 57:42 / #
Yeah. I never felt like I've deserted the romance genre. I felt like I learned so much from writing the romances. First of all, when they were, when your page count was dictated you know, you had to be, I had to learn to get into the action immediately, join the scene in progress, and that didn't come with the first several books. I spent a lot of time you know, tiptoeing through the tulips and describing everything and showing off to the reader how much research I'd done about a place. Really what they wanted to know was when are they going to meet, what, you know, what's going on?
Jennifer Prokop 58:25 / #
When are they gonna kiss?
Sandra Brown 58:27 / #
I was learning.
Sarah MacLean 58:28 / #
It feels very real.
Sandra Brown 58:29 / #
And I got better at it, but little tools like that, that I had to learn when writing romance, I brought with me. I don't feel like I deserted anything, and as you say, the books always had shadings. I remember even my fourth book, A Treasure Worth Seeking, was about an FBI agent having to move into the heroine's apartment because her brother is escaped jail or something like that, and they're kind of hiding out hoping he's gonna show up. So there was always that, that thread in there.
Sarah MacLean 59:06 / #
So you move to Warner to publish Slow Heat in Heaven, and so I guess my question is, did you move to Warner because you knew Warner would let you do something that maybe romance wouldn't let you do?
Sandra Brown 59:20 / #
My agent kind of threw the idea out there, and they were the first to, you know, to really bite. I think I did a three book contract, my first one. The first two books, Slow Heat (in Heaven) and Best Kept Secret had basically had a terrible cover on it, and we had a meeting and I said okay, and what they had suggested is that if I was going to establish myself as as a, you know, more suspense or mystery, then perhaps I would rethink writing category romances. And that was a tough, that was a, it was a, that was tough to leave that safety net, than it was, you know, on the high trapeze without one, and I couldn't, you know, I had to make up my mind, and I thought, yeah, this is where I want to go. So that was a career decision. So we had this meeting, and it was so, it looked like a historical recycle cover that had been recycled from historical because you've got the heroine lying back with the bosoms falling out, and the shirtless hero with the biceps and everything, and so, and I said, "This is set on a horse training ranch. I haven't seen any body in West Texas who dresses like this." (laughter) And so I said, "No more bosoms and biceps." I said if you're going to ask me to kind of start edging away from the romance elements into more mystery and suspense, then you've got to give me covers. that also indicate that.
Sarah MacLean 1:01:24 / #
You have to help me succeed.
Sandra Brown 1:01:26 / #
That's exactly right. And so on Mirror Image, they did a completely different type of cover, and guess what? It was my first book on The New York Times bestseller list. So I made my point. And from then on, I didn't have to, you know -
Sarah MacLean 1:01:43 / #
Fight for it.
Sandra Brown 1:01:44 / #
I had a little bit more cool.
Sarah MacLean 1:01:47 / #
Was there any discussion of changing your name?
Sandra Brown 1:01:50 / #
No. No. I wanted to publish under Sandra Brown.
Sarah MacLean 1:01:54 / #
That's great. You hear other people having to, you know, make that switch. It still is a thing that people say in romance. You know, well, if you want to write something else, you need to change your name. I'm just going to tell everybody, "No. Sandra Brown didn't."
Jennifer Prokop 1:02:07 / #
Sandra Brown didn't, you shouldn't have to either.
Sandra Brown 1:02:10 / #
And that also is my real name.
Sarah MacLean 1:02:14 / #
That helps too. So let's talk about Sandra Brown, because we've already talked about you know, what makes the Sandra Brown romance a little bit, but what do you think, kind of is the hallmark of the Sandra Brown romance? What do you think saying to readers?
Sandra Brown 1:02:27 / #
Well I don't know about the same two readers, but I had a, I've worked this out over time. I have four elements to me that are critical, and in every book, and I've carried it over into the suspense novels, but the romance aspect of that. The first one is that the hero and the heroine must be codependent to solve their problem. In other words, they share a problem that each has to try and overcome. They're coming at it from different angles, and willingly, they have to work together in order to solve it. That's the first thing. So build in, if I can, a problem they're going to share, and they're dependent on each other. Not liking it at first, but that's the way it is. The second thing is they've got to share space, and this is the hardest thing to do. Because you got to keep them together. And that, you know, all of the peripheral characters in Blind Tiger, were a lot of people, but I tried as much as possible, even though Thatcher and Laurel were not living with each other. He kept showing up. He was always showing up.
Sarah MacLean 1:03:59 / #
I love it.
Sandra Brown 1:04:01 / #
And so I kept them together as much as possible, but in a romance novel, I think it's almost essential that they're on every page together. The desire is a given. It's going to be chemistry from the get-go. First time they see each other sparks are gonna fly, even though they don't demonstrate it. Sparks can fly in anger. but there's going to be that static electricity, you know, automatically. So that's a given. And then the one that we've touched on in this, I think is as important as any if not the, it can't be easy. They've got to be forbidden, for one reason or another. So you've got them a problem they've got to solve together. You've got them to share space. They're gonna have the desire but they can't give into it.
Jennifer Prokop 1:04:54 / #
This explains everything about the kind of romance reader, I mean, it's just hard wired right into my system. Because I say that a lot, a thing I struggle with, I think, in modern romances, they aren't trying to solve the same problem. They have separate problems, and I'm always like, okay, but I don't care. What are they doing together? And I know that makes me old-fashioned maybe, but I don't care. Solve a problem together. That's what I want to see you do.
Sandra Brown 1:05:18 / #
I think old-fashioned works, if it, you know, if it's written correctly. A contemporary book by contemporary writer and I read them and I love them, eat 'em up. And as I said, the human emotions have not changed. So, you know, we can go back and we can read, you know, books written hundreds of years ago, Dickens, Shakespeare, you know, Wilkie Collins, anybody, and those, those emotions are still there, identified.
Sarah MacLean 1:05:56 / #
I would love to hear - one of the questions we sent you, and I think it's so important for these interviews and for women in general, in publishing, is, when did you know you were Sandra Brown? Right? When did you know you were a big deal? Was there a moment when you were like, oh, no, I'm a thing. I'm leaving a mark.
Sandra Brown 1:06:17 / #
I can't wait for that day. Because I still feel, I mean, very much, a yeoman. I mean, I am, I work hard. And every day when I come to this computer, it's like, I've never done it before. I start from scratch every day. And so I know, I don't think of Sandra Brown as Sandra. In fact, my friends have heard me say before, my family has heard me say, frequently, I've got to go be Sandra Brown today.
Sarah MacLean 1:07:03 / #
A separate entity. Sure.
Sandra Brown 1:07:06 / #
It's like, you know, I don't fluff up every day. And so it's, it's like, I still consider myself, you know, just a, someone who works very, very hard, and has been blessed with the opportunities that I have been given and, and to be able to do what I love doing and, and make a living at it. And I know that a lot of people, you know, just take their jobs, but they're necessary. And I get to do what I love doing and get to have a job out of it. So I'm grateful every day and I never, I think the you know, it's really bad for a writer to start reading the press releases, because when you start getting complacent about what you are, you can get really lazy and so I face, I am very paranoid and very fearful that whatever talent, I don't even like to use that word, but I guess that's the word that has to suffice, but whatever storytelling ability that I may have had or forming a sentence or creating a character yesterday will have left me last night, and I live in the fear of being exposed as the biggest fraud that ever pulled off, you know, a hoax.
Sarah MacLean 1:08:39 / #
That just sounds like you're a writer. This is all very comforting for me, but I think we, Jen and I, will say you are obviously a legend to us and to many.
Sandra Brown 1:08:52 / #
Well, thank you. Thank you. That means a great deal, and I love to, to hear other, I mean, you know, I'm buddies with a lot of other writers and some are, you know, very fearful the same way I am. Some are very, you know, laid back something, you know, gosh, you know, isn't this fun, and I remember being, it was actually at George and Barbara Bush's home in Houston for a luncheon, for one her foundation's literacy programs. And Harlan Cohen and I were there and we had our spouses with us, this lovely lunch. And so we were outside in their garden, having our picture made with him and everything and he, you know, he's very, very tall, and he leaned down and he said, "Do you believe we get to do this?" And I said, "You know, I pinch myself all the time." I mean, telling my stories, writing my stories has enabled me to do amazing things, meet sports stars and movie stars and rock stars and go on two USO tours, an opportunity that would not have been afforded me, had I not been, you know, a writer. And so I'm forever grateful. But yeah, I don't look at you know, Sandra Brown the mom is just mom, believe me, Sandra Brown, the grandmother is just that, you know. And Sandra Brown, the one that goes to work every day is the different one that shows up to make a speech.
Jennifer Prokop 1:10:43 / #
So as we wrap up, though, one question that I think, it's just a reflective question, and you've seen this in advance is, when you think about your body of work, especially romance, since this is a romance podcast, although you're welcome to talk about any one of your books. Do you have a favorite? Do you have a book that you are especially proud of, or that you hope will outlive you?
Sandra Brown 1:11:08 / #
Well, I make, when I'm asked this in a public speech, public arena, I always say my favorite is the one that you're about to buy.
Jennifer Prokop 1:11:23 / #
Great answer.
Sarah MacLean 1:11:24 / #
But let's say you're asked for posterity.
Sandra Brown 1:11:29 / #
I think if, if I hadn't, well, of course, and this is not, I'm not being facetious on this, I was very proud of Blind Tiger. Because it was a, it was a different kind of book, and I hope it has long legs. I hope it, you know, lasts for a long time, I hope that word of mouth will spread, because it is a different kind of story, and it's kind of a yarn, you know, in a way and I want people to read it. I thought there was some very interesting character development in it and social implications in it, and so I'm proud of it. A book that comes around a lot is Envy. People - there's a lot of fan base that say Envy, you know, was one that I really loved. And so I think it might, it might live a longer time. And I think the trilogy will, just because they're so much fun. And they're still wanting an e-book. I can't get them an e-book, and because -
Jennifer Prokop 1:12:41 / #
Oh, yeah! 'Cause we had to order, I had to order paperbacks.
Sarah MacLean 1:12:44 / #
We had to read them in print. Why can't they be an e-book?
Sandra Brown 1:12:47 / #
Well, it's all contractual stuff. I hate that side of it, because, you know, well, I could comment more, but I'm not.
Jennifer Prokop 1:13:02 / #
I'm sure.
Sarah MacLean 1:13:03 / #
That's fine. You can come again, when you're ready.
Sandra Brown 1:13:06 / #
Let's put it this way. As soon as it becomes feasible, I would love to have them available to readers in e-book. Yeah. And I love people that read them. You know, in the whole volume, the one volume, because then they can read it like one thousand page book. Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 1:13:26 / #
I love, I mean, this is such a tiny, tiny thing, but that exclamation point really does a whole lot of work!
Sandra Brown 1:13:33 / #
You know what, I heard you comment on that.
Sarah MacLean 1:13:39 / #
Did you hear me call them sex-clamation points!
Jennifer Prokop 1:13:44 / #
We're teaching you all the good stuff.
Sandra Brown 1:13:47 / #
I may be wrong, but I think you attributed that to the publisher, and that was me! Because I thought when I can't just say "Texas Trilogy" because that doesn't say anything, and so I thought what if I put an exclamation point? And I did and so when I sent the manuscript in -
Sarah MacLean 1:14:08 / #
It's perfect.
Jennifer Prokop 1:14:09 / #
It is.
Sandra Brown 1:14:10 / #
I said now, the exclamation point is part of the title, and it's gonna be on all of the books. So yeah, that was my idea.
Sarah MacLean 1:14:18 / #
We're going to put, I'm going to put a special beginning on the text of that episode to make sure that we get this correct.
Jennifer Prokop 1:14:18 / #
Get it right.
Sarah MacLean 1:14:18 / #
I want to correct the record. Those exclamation points are glorious, and I love them very much.
Sandra Brown 1:14:30 / #
Thank you.
Sarah MacLean 1:14:31 / #
So this is sort of a separate question that I would love for you to answer. But is there anybody lesser known in romance, who, from, you know, who you think, as we're, Jen and I are planning to interview, you know, as many people as we can over the next few years for this kind of a conversation? Is there anybody who you absolutely think we have to talk to? And not just authors.
Sandra Brown 1:14:53 / #
I don't know who you have lined up? I think the contemporaries of mine that I mentioned before, I think Jayne Ann Krentz, because she writes multi-genre, and she does them all extremely well. Nora Roberts, of course.
Jennifer Prokop 1:15:13 / #
We'd love to get Nora Roberts, of course.
Sandra Brown 1:15:16 / #
And Candice Camp, because she has written contemporaries and historicals, and she's been around more than 40 years, and still turning out great books. And so she would be one I would suggest, because they do have that history, you know, they do have that longevity. And recently, not too recently, but someone asked me, "What are you most proud of?" You know, and it can't be your children, and it can't be your long marriage, and it can be anything easy like that, but from a writing standpoint, from your, what, what's the thing you're most proud of? And I said, "My longevity. It's not easy to maintain." And I respect authors, like, you know, like the Dean Koontz's and the Stephen King's, and they were all, they had all just started, you know, when just years, a few years ahead of me. And I read their works as inspiration when I first started out, and, and Dean Koontz is a great plotter. I mean, he just, and he wrote a book on how to write fiction and it became a bible early on. So all of these writers who year after year and decade after decade are still on the bestseller lists. That speaks well of not just their talent, but their work ethic.
Jennifer Prokop 1:16:54 / #
Well, I also think it's nice as a genre reader, to see people I deeply respect becoming more widely respected. I mean, when I was younger, Stephen King was just a horror writer. But now Stephen King is Stephen King.
Jennifer Prokop 1:17:10 / #
And I think that there's a way in which, I appreciate deeply, this, the idea that great storytelling and great writing is isn't just found in literary fiction, right? It's found in thrillers and horror and romance, and I think that that's one of the things that's so nice about seeing those people on those lists and seeing that longevity, is there's readers now who read Sandra Brown that wouldn't read, you know, Demon Rumm, and that's too bad, right?
Sandra Brown 1:17:40 / #
Yeah. You're right. You're exactly right. And so I think there is a, sometimes there is a prejudice there, you know, but it speaks well of a storyteller who can come up with that many stories and over a period of decades, I mean, just decades, and remain a marketable commodity to publishing houses. And so I'm proud of that longevity, and it's work. I mean, it's just work, and it speaks not just to, you know, sit and wait to get inspired, you really have to put your butt in the chair, you know, and get your head out of the clouds and put words on paper. That's the only way I know how to do it. There's no other way that I know to write a book except one word at a time. And I had another brilliant thought, now it's left me, but back to the longevity and just working at it, just working at it. I never aspired to do anything except entertain. I don't care if I win prizes, but my books are collecting dust on somebody's bookshelf. I want to be the book they take to the beach, into the bathtub, you know, to bed with them at night, that have the coffee stain, the Coca-Cola stain, the suntan oil, you know, they're frayed from taking on the subway, because, you know, that's the one you don't want to put down. That's the one you're carrying around with you, and that's the one that keeping you engrossed, and so if I entertain my reader than I can go to sleep at night, that I've done my job for the day. That's, that's the one thing that I always set out to do, is entertain my reader. Tell the reader a story.
Sarah MacLean 1:19:43 / #
Well, you have done it very well. Thank you so much for so many years of fabulous books and writing.
Sandra Brown 1:19:52 / #
Thank you. Y'all are so sweet! I'm very honored.
Sarah MacLean 1:19:56 / #
On a personal level, thank you for inspiring, I mean, you are the reason I write romance, so it is a huge honor to talk to you.
Jennifer Prokop 1:20:06 / #
It is an honor.
Sarah MacLean 1:20:07 / #
We just learned that we have, you have imprinted on our on our reading.
Jennifer Prokop 1:20:13 / #
I was trying to be real cool, but when you described you meeting Candace Camp that was me meeting you. It's fine.
Sarah MacLean 1:20:23 / #
Sandra, this was an absolute delight. Thank you so much.
Sandra Brown 1:20:27 / #
Thank you. It was my pleasure.
Sarah MacLean 1:20:31 / #
Man, when that was over, I was like, that's why that's Sandra Brown. That's why she's Sandra Brown. She was the best.
Jennifer Prokop 1:20:42 / #
I'm like not even really making words. I'm surprised I did when we talked to her because I don't think people realize, this was such a formative author.
Sarah MacLean 1:20:53 / #
We were really, I mean, I think longtime listeners will not be surprised to hear that we were very stressed out about doing this right.
Jennifer Prokop 1:21:03 / #
Y'all, we prepared. We prepared so hard for it.
Sarah MacLean 1:21:06 / #
Almost too much. I was a little worried by how much we prepared.
Jennifer Prokop 1:21:08 / #
Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 1:21:09 / #
I was like, uh-oh, what if we lose our mojo? But it was so great. I loved her. I love just how she - I loved her wisdom. I loved that when she, when we asked her about the hallmarks of a Sandra Brown novel -
Jennifer Prokop 1:21:22 / #
She had a list.
Sarah MacLean 1:21:23 / #
She knew exactly what she wanted, what she was. And she knew exactly how Sandra Brown novels feel. And I mean, the second she said, "And they're pretty fearless." I was like, that's it. That's the whole ballgame. And we've talked so much about that over the last three years, not just about her, but about all the books that we've loved.
Jennifer Prokop 1:21:43 / #
Yes.
Sarah MacLean 1:21:43 / #
Just that there's this sense of fearlessness in them, and so it just reminded me that as writers, our work is to swing for the fences, and maybe we clear them and maybe we don't but you swing.
Jennifer Prokop 1:21:57 / #
We're going to talk a lot this year about the history of romance, and you know, The Flame and the Flower was this really important kind of marker. Romance existed before in a lot of different iterations and a lot of different ways, but you know, sort of genre romance. And the thing that I have been thinking a lot about is, the romance reader you are is really formed by your primordial romance texts. And when Sandra Brown talked about what makes us Sandra Brown romance, it was so, this is what is romance is to me.
Sarah MacLean 1:22:37 / #
Yes! Like she unpeeled you, straight to your core.
Jennifer Prokop 1:22:40 / #
Right there, she made me who I was. But I think the other thing that's really interesting is that can be true at the same time that I can see how romance has really changed.
Sarah MacLean 1:22:40 / #
Yeah.
Jennifer Prokop 1:22:52 / #
And so that's the part that I think continues to astound me, is outsiders to romance are kind of like, aren't the books all the same? And I was like, no. Yes and no, right? Yes, there's something that delivers to me every time and hearing Sandra Brown verbalize what she wants to do in her books really made that clear to me, but also, so much has changed.
Sarah MacLean 1:23:18 / #
Yeah. Well, it was interesting because reading Blind Tiger, which is probably 60% mystery/thriller, 40% romance really gave me a feel for it. There were so many moments where I thought, oh, that's Sandra Brown. That's it. This feels, it's a lesson in authorial voice reading that book, you know, 30 years after I read my first Sandra Brown novel, because I can still hear her in it. And then after meeting her, you sort of have this moment where you're like, oh, it all connects in this really cool way. But also, it feels like the romance there is a Sandra Brown romance, not a romance of an author who just started this year, and that is also very cool. I think, the work of what we have talked about, us wanting this season to be, feels like we're really, in that first interview, it just felt like okay, we're starting to see already the long road, and I'm really excited about that.
Jennifer Prokop 1:24:23 / #
I think one other thing I've been thinking a lot about is, I think I've mentioned a couple times here and there, there's a podcast I really enjoyed listening to with my husband called Hit Parade, which is about pop music. And it talks about, sort of opens with, we're going to talk about disco and Donna Summer, but then it traces back all of the people that sort of influenced that music, and then there's sort of a part where it's like, who has Donna Summer influenced, right? That's a really good episode, everybody, by the way. One of the things I was thinking about as we talked to Sandra Brown was Tia Williams. So we interviewed Tia Williams about her book, Seven Days in June -
Sarah MacLean 1:25:03 / #
Last season.
Jennifer Prokop 1:25:03 / #
Last season, but Tia Williams talked about her love of Slow Heat in Heaven and Sandra Brown. And when I thought about it, it made perfect sense, because I could see sort of the influence. And I think that's the part about knowing I mean, you know, my brain's got to be good for something, I guess, is it is really fascinating. We talk about like the romance family tree and sort of how, who influences who. I think that's another thing we are hoping that these Trailblazer episodes can do is really show you the people who, you know, these things are all connected. Every romance has that common DNA, but some people tune in more to some authors than others, and it's really, that was another fascinating thing for me.
Sarah MacLean 1:25:51 / #
What's remarkable to me is how all of these people that we've talked to have been able to name other authors who inspire them, push them, kept them moving, you know, helped them in the early days of their career. And I think that is, when, as I think about this piece of it, I keep coming back to this heroine's journey question that we've talked about so much when we're talking about the actual books, but the heroine's journey is really the journey of a lot of these writers too. Just finding community, in general, writing is such a lonely road, but I don't think any of us in romance or out of it, get anywhere without a community. So it's really wonderful to hear those names spoken.
Jennifer Prokop 1:26:36 / #
Yes. Yeah. So I hope everyone enjoyed this conversation as much as we did.
Sarah MacLean 1:26:42 / #
It was the best.
Jennifer Prokop 1:26:43 / #
There are some - we have a lot of awesome things teed up for you. We have written some - talk about swinging for the fences. If you even knew the emails we've been sending to people.
Sarah MacLean 1:26:54 / #
We're not clearing all the fences, but we sure are trying.
Jennifer Prokop 1:26:56 / #
We're trying. And you know what? I think the other thing that I will try and do in Show Notes is maybe put some of our favorites of these authors. So they're talking, we've asked about their favorites books that they love, but so, Show Notes I hope will be something else.
Sarah MacLean 1:27:15 / #
That's right. I did just have a moment where I was like, should we read Slow Heat in Heaven when we read the Texas! book, but -
Jennifer Prokop 1:27:21 / #
You know what, I did when we read that book.
Sarah MacLean 1:27:24 / #
Did you reread it?
Jennifer Prokop 1:27:25 / #
That's one re-read when we did Sandra Brown, so I will make sure we link to that episode as well.
Sarah MacLean 1:27:31 / #
That's right. Oh, also, how cool was it that she clearly listened to our Sandra Brown episode?
Jennifer Prokop 1:27:36 / #
I don't even want to talk about it.
Sarah MacLean 1:27:37 / #
It was amazing! It was amazing! She had prepped information about our favorite books and honest to god, what a class act.
Jennifer Prokop 1:27:47 / #
Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 1:27:49 / #
Sandra Brown. You're the best. Thank you so much. Come back anytime. And that's that. You've been listening to Fated Mates. I'm Sarah MacLean.
Jennifer Prokop 1:28:02 / #
I'm Jennifer Prokop. You can find us on Instagram @FatedMatespod, on Twitter @FatedMates and in your earholes every week.
Sarah MacLean 1:28:09 / #
Every week at FatedMates.net or on your favorite podcatcher. You can like and follow us on your favorite podcatcher and you won't miss a single episode. We've got a lot cooking for Season Four. Also at FatedMates.net you can buy merch and stickers from Best Friend Kelly and Jordandené. There's also, ooh, you guys, for Season Four there's a Fated Mates tote bag now and a Fated Mates mug, so don't say we never do anything for you. Have a great week. We hope you're reading something great. Next week is an interstitial week. We haven't talked about the trope yet. We're going to do that now.
Jennifer Prokop 1:28:42 / #
We'll figure it out everybody.
Sarah MacLean 1:28:50 / #
We prepped for Sandra Brown and not for next week. So.
S03.46: Interview with Susan Elizabeth Phillips
We are so excited to have absolute romance legend Susan Elizabeth Phillips with us to discuss every fangirly question we had for her! We talked about her new book, When Stars Collide, the latest in the Chicago Stars series, about her role in inventing the sports romance, about the opera and the way she thinks about her career after a few decades of writing. We had the BEST time.
Our next read along, sometime in July, is Cat Sebastian’s wonderful Unmasked by the Marquess. Get it at Amazon, Apple Books, B&N, Kobo, or Bookshop.org.
Thank you, as always, for listening! Please follow us on your favorite podcasting app, and if you are up for leaving a rating or review there, we would be very grateful!
Show Notes
Welcome Susan Elizabeth Phillips! We talked about an earlier book in the Chicago Stars series, Nobody’s Baby But Mine in season two.
Speaking of amazing stories about opera singers, last week, an opera singer in Pennsylvania gave birth in the car while her husband was driving.
As it turns out, the Opera in Verona is a pretty big deal! If you’re ever in Chicago, go to The Lyric Opera and then let Jen know because she wants someone to go with her. The Chicago Children’s Choir is amazing, too and they often collaborate with the CSO and Lyric Opera.
All you need to know about the totally awesome Chicago Flag, and why it's better than most city flags.
The Dangerous Men, Adventurous Women anthology, which explored the genre from the perspective of romance authors instead of academics, was published in 1992.
Jen was on Learning the Tropes to talk about Kiss an Angel if you want to hear more about it.
There are really cool things and really bad things about the Chicago River.
You can preorder signed copies of Bombshell from Word Bookstore in Brooklyn.
S02.45: Vivian Stephens' Acquisitions with librarian Steve Ammidown
It felt fitting that our final episode of Season 2—during which we celebrated so many of the vintage romances that blooded us—would be with someone we could fully geek out with! We are thrilled to have Steve Ammidown, romance nerd and archivist at the Browne Popular Culture Library at Bowling Green State University, with us today to talk about Vivian Stephens and early category romances. To prepare, all three of us read some of the earliest American category romances, and wow were they a ride! We’re talking women who work, marriage in romance, older heroines, the impact of Vietnam on 1980s romances, and more. Strap in!
We’re on hiatus for the next three weeks, but you’ll hear some great alternative content on Wednesdays — including crossover episodes and interviews we’ve done in other places. Thank you, as always, for listening — we hope you’re having a great (and safe!) summer. While we’re apart, if you are up for leaving a rating or review for the podcast on your podcasting app, we would be very grateful!
Oh, and did you know Sarah has a new book out? Daring & the Duke is officially here! Get it at Amazon, Kobo, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Books-a-Million or from your local indie, or order it signed from the wonderful independent bookstore, Savoy Bookshop in RI, where she is through the end of July!
Show Notes
Welcome Steve Ammidown, the Manuscripts & Outreach Archivist at the Browne Popular Culture Library at the Bowling Green State University in Bowling Green, Ohio.
Vivian Stephens was one of the original founders of RWA and one of the most important editors in romance. At the Browne Pop Culture library, there is a special Vivian Stephens collection. Vivian was instrumental in bringing category romance to America and created the Candlelight Ecstacy Romance line, which put sex on page in a new way. She also created the Harlequin American line.
Category romances are a particular type of romance novel -- usually shorter and published in specific imprints that indicate the content of the book. Think Harlequin Presents or Loveswept. Now most are published by Harlequin, but there were many lines from many different publishers over the years. Rob Imes has a fabulous list of category romance imprints at his blog.
Vivian recruited a series of authors who changed the face of romance: Jayne Castle/Jayne Ann Krentz, Sandra Brown, and later Beverly Jenkins. Here is an early interview with Vivian about her work and the world of romance.
At the last RITAs ceremony--in the future, it will be the Vivians!-- there was a great video of romance firsts. You should watch it.
Dangerous Men and Adventurous Women was a 90s era collection of romance essays by romance writers to combat a lot of not great academic research on romance.
The late 70s and early 80s were a tumultuous time in American history: the return of Vietnam soldiers, a finacial crisis, and a huge divorce boom.
The mall bookstores, B. Dalton and Waldenbooks, were alive and well in the 80s. The buyers at these bookstores, including Sue Grimshaw, were powerful gatekeepers who had a great amount of power over the romance genre.
Kathryn Falk and Romantic Times and Flavia Kngightsbridge was a famous RT columnist, and at RT conventions there was something called the Mr. Romance Competition, and everyone who has ever seen it is like...whoa.
Marisa de Zavala, whose real name is Celina Mullan, also wrote as Ana Lisa de Leon and Rachel Scott. See more about Marisa on this great thread about her from Alexis Daria!
Entwined Destinies was one of the first category romances with Black characters by a Black author, Elsie Washington writing as Rosalind Welles. Although it's very difficult to find a copy of Entwined Destinies, but BGSU has a great photograph of Vivian and Elsie together.
14.5: Space Romance - There Are No Wallflowers in Space!
Well, it was destined to happen sometime—we’re taking the show intergalactic! This week we’re talking about space romance and why it’s totally. fricken. bananas. Discover the series that brought Jen and Sarah together, hear us talk about prison planets, sex planets, the Muppet Show and more. Series by Grace Goodwin, Emmy Chandler, Robin Lovett & Jessie Mihalik.
Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, please leave us a like or a review. Also — if you have a romance loving friend, please let them know that we don’t just talk about vampires & valkyries, and maybe they’d like us, too?
We’re back to the Game Makers in two weeks with Jen’s favorite of the three books, The Master, and one of our favorites, Sophie Jordan! Get ready for chastity belts and string bikinis! Read The Master at Amazon, B&N, Apple Books, Kobo, or from your local Indie.
Show Notes
Who knew there was so much to say about The Muppets? We both loved Pigs in Space, and Sarah mentioned that General Hospital-style skit. The Muppet Show is streaming on YouTube. And they're still making new ones!
How many dudes were in Dead Poet's Society? Well, there was Robert Sean Leonard. Ethan Hawke. And Josh Fucking Charles, of course. And then these other guys.
Josh Charles and his amazing man hands on The Good Wife, kissing Alica in an elevator.
Oh, and Sarah also likes Sports Night even though Aaron Sorkin is definitely a problem.
Muppets from Space. Omg.
A few early space romances were Sweet Starfire and Warrior's Woman.
Formative 80's space and sci-fi movies: Conan the Barbarian. Back to the Future. Star Wars.
We deserved more than one kiss and real snotty offspring.
"Make is So," says Jean-Luc Picard.
Australia was the original prison island.
You should read The Most Dangerous Game. It's an amazing story.
Robin Lovett is reading Dark Skye.
Aurora Blazing doesn't come out until October, but you can read the first chapter here.
Jen recommends The Chernobyl miniseries and the podcast. Sarah thought she was joking when she said I should go to twitter and ask for nuclear romances, like I hadn't thought of that already.
Sarah recommends Booksmart.
The Master is next, and we'll be joined by Sophie Jordan.
The Moon is not a fucking part of Mars. My God.
Transcript
Movie Dialogue 0:00 / #
And now another controvertable episode of
Jennifer Prokop 0:03 / #
Fated Mates. Welcome everybody. We're going to be talking about space romances. I'm Jen Reads Romance.
Sarah MacLean 0:13 / #
I'm Sarah MacLean. I write romance novels and I read romance novels. And all I want is for a pig's in space-style intro to this, where it's like, "Romance in Space!"
Jennifer Prokop 0:29 / #
Oh God, me too Miss Piggy was formative.
Sarah MacLean 0:34 / #
Man. "Pigs in Space" was the best. Also the -- I forget what it was called, but the General Hospital-style soap opera on the Muppet Show? We're super dating ourselves. Now. I'd like everyone to appreciate.
Jennifer Prokop 0:49 / #
I don't even care because it's amazing. She just, everything was so sparkly and silvery when she was in space. I loved it.
Sarah MacLean 0:58 / #
I know. I know. And it's making me want, I wonder if The Muppet Show's on Netflix? "The Muppet Show should be on something I would love to show my daughter The Muppet Show.
Jennifer Prokop 1:10 / #
Yeah, I'm, I'm pretty sure it's somewhere that's I remember going through that when our son was younger, and really being like, "We got to watch the Muppet Show, man." It's good times.
Sarah MacLean 1:19 / #
Well cause also, as a grown up, you come to Sesame Street with your kids. And then you realize all the good muppets are not on Sesame Street. The good smartass muppets, Miss Piggy, uh Gonzo, Fozzie Bear. None of them are on Sesame Street.
Jennifer Prokop 1:41 / #
One of my favorite Muppet movies is the one with Gonzo being from space. God, what was that one? Hold on. I gotta. I don't. Muppet Movie.
Sarah MacLean 1:54 / #
I don't know. But I do feel like this is giving Eric some meat food.
Yeah, there was a there was a movie that was all about Gonzo and you know who else had had? Okay? The guy from The Good Wife and Dead Poets Society that oh makes me bite my fist because he's still fucking handsome.
Are you talking about Robert Sean Leonard?
Jennifer Prokop 2:16 / #
No I'm not. I'm not about fuck that guy. I'm talking about the other guy. You know the one who was on the Good Wife?
Sarah MacLean 2:21 / #
Ethan Hawke.
Jennifer Prokop 2:22 / #
No. I'm talking about that the other guy. God.
Sarah MacLean 2:25 / #
How many other guys are there in Dead Poets Society?
Shut up. The best guy. The one...
Which one?
Jennifer Prokop 2:32 / #
The one who makes out in on The Good Wife, the one who makes out with her in the elevator?
Sarah MacLean 2:37 / #
You keep saying The Good Wife. It's not gonna make me have seen it.
Jennifer Prokop 2:40 / #
Ah, hold on. I'm like, "Google's my friend."
Sarah MacLean 2:46 / #
You guys, welcome to my life.
Jennifer Prokop 2:48 / #
No, stop it. I'm an amazing person. Just because I can't remember people's names.
Sarah MacLean 2:53 / #
Dead Poets Society is a seminal text for me. It's so. I'm confused by which guy, which boy you're talking about.
Okay, wait, I'm trying to find out. So Alicia, the one with Will Gardner. Okay, so Will Gardener is the name of the guy in The Good Wife. And ahhh I'm, you know.
Will Gardener is the guy.
Jennifer Prokop 3:16 / #
Max Overstreet! He's the guy plays Max Overstreet!
Sarah MacLean 3:19 / #
Wait a second. He's not good. He's a bad guy on ah, in a lot of things.
Jennifer Prokop 3:25 / #
Okay, but in this Muppet Movie with Gonzo he also is fine. I'm just telling you.
Sarah MacLean 3:29 / #
Well, he's fine everywhere.
Yeah, well, God, yes. Oh my God. There's a scene with him kissing Alicia Florrick in the fucking elevator.
Oh. Max Overstreet. You're right. And then.
Jennifer Prokop 3:39 / #
Max Overstreet!
Sarah MacLean 3:41 / #
He's the one that goes on the date and Dead Poets Society. And then what does he do? He brings, it's Josh Charles. Josh Charles night. It's from Sports Night.
Jennifer Prokop 3:51 / #
You know, I'm starting to realize that you and I not remembering names and titles is way deeper. There's a lot of layers to it.
Sarah MacLean 3:59 / #
I know. You guys so I know my faves are problematic but I have an obsession with Aaron Sorkin and the things that he writes and Sports Night is magnificent. And you have to appreciate that me saying that Sports Night is magnificent is it must be super magnificent because I know nothing about any thing involving balls. I mean blow up balls. Although. Wait. I mean, throw ball, kick ball.
Jennifer Prokop 4:04 / #
Sportsballs, Sarah.
Sarah MacLean 4:11 / #
Sportsballs. Although I will say that I was at a signing not long ago and a woman came up to me, a reader came up to me, and if you listen reader, please tell us who you are. Please say hi on Twitter or Facebook or somewhere. Um, she came up to me and she said, "Do you know the difference between you and Tessa Dare?" And I was like, "Well, I mean, we're not the same person. So I know a lot of things that are different about me and Tessa Dare." And she said, Tessa Dare writes about balls and you don't.
And I was like, "Oh," and I realized I really don't. I generally don't involve myself with testicles. Apparently Tessa does everyone. So you know if you've never read Tessa Dare and you're into balls she's for you.
Talk about a close fuckin read. I mean damn girl.
But I did come home and I put balls into that book. Cause I was like, "Well, I refuse to be bested."
Well, Sarah, I'll just circle back around to I'm real embarrassed to tell you the name of this fucking movie that you should watch with your daughter is called Muppets from Space. I's not even complicated. How the fuck could I not think of that? Muppets from Space. Jesus Christ.
Amazing. And is it Pigs in Space, but like a whole movie?
It's like a whole movie, Miss Piggy's for sure in it.
It's like the Wayne's World of the Muppet universe?
Jennifer Prokop 6:00 / #
They're trying to figure out where Gonzo's from, if I remember correctly, but it's really fucking cute. It's one of my favorites. It's really, really cute. So I would recommend it. I feel now, it almost feels dirty to somehow segue to romance from there, but you know, whatever.
Sarah MacLean 6:18 / #
Whatever. Romance and space and here's the interesting thing. It's real dirty in space. I feel romance off planet. It's like suddenly everybody's allowed to write whatever the hell they want.
Jennifer Prokop 6:33 / #
We've talked about this with, with paranormal, right, when you remove people from human society on Earth, you get to break a bunch of different rules. That totally makes sense to me.
Sarah MacLean 6:45 / #
Yeah, it, it actually really does. It's a interesting, because so I when we talked about doing this episode, my instant thought was like, 'Oh, well, we're gonna have to we have to talk about those early ones.' But I don't think there were that many super early romances, but they, there was a Jane Ann Krentz called "Sweet Starfire". The cover's pretty great. The heroine has the most perfect, they're basically just metallic boobs underneath there. They're weaponry.
They're they're very. It's not even perky. It's -- they defy gravity.
There very firm. They are incredibly firm breasts. Um. It's basic...so okay, so the heroine has telepathy, she's telepathic and um she is, well or no, I'm sorry she's not telepathic but she's from this world of people who are telepathic and she doesn't have it. There's some reason why she doesn't have it. And she has to figure it out, and then the hero is basically Han Solo. He's a delivery man in space.
Jennifer Prokop 8:08 / #
My theory, and I will get to this later in the show, is that every good character I love in a space romance is basically Han Solo.
Sarah MacLean 8:17 / #
I mean, it makes sense though, right? Especially, because so I don't know what date. I don't know what date this is, but it had to have been early days. Um, and well, I do know what date the other one is, the other one was written in the, so the other one that sort of is instantly imprinted on my mind is Johanna Lindsay's "Warriors Woman", which is in the Ly-san-ter series, which is spelled Ly dash san dash ter because I don't know dash.
That's how you show that you're an alien culture by having some real weird spelling. Gotta use a bunch of punctuation.
Add in punctuation to make it seem real to me, but I am gonna I know last episode I was like, "We're not gonna read the back cover copy" because it sucks but here's the thing: back cover copy has changed a lot over the years because if I had back cover copy like this, I would make everyone read it all the time. So, here it is. In the year 2139 fearless Tedra De Arr sets out to rescue her beleaguered planet, Kystran from the savage rule of the evil Crad Ce Moerr. Experienced in combat but not in love, the beautiful, untouched Amazon flies with Martha, her wise-cracking, free-thinking computer, to a world where warriors reign supreme--and into the arms of the one man she can never hope to vanquish: the bronzed barbarian Challen Ly-San-Ter. A magnificent creature of raw yet, disciplined desires, the muscle-bound primitive succeeds where no puny Kystran male had before--igniting a raging fire within Tedra that must be extinguished before she can even think of saving her enslaved world.
Jennifer Prokop 10:30 / #
That's a whole lot.
Sarah MacLean 10:31 / #
We're gonna read it y'all.
Jennifer Prokop 10:34 / #
I'm kind of ready to read it right now.
Sarah MacLean 10:36 / #
So it's like this is Conan the Barbarian fanfic. And then there's the you know, and it makes sense. Where Johanna Lindsay was an earthy, you know, Schwarzeneggery kinda lady. Jayne Ann Krentz is more of an intellectual. Uh. You know.
Jennifer Prokop 10:58 / #
Han Solo type of snark guy. We should I swear to God, I always say this but now it's summer so maybe I'm, I'm constantly like, "we should be making BuzzFeed quizzes that go along with this." Like, "Which 70s or 80s space hero Do you imprint on?"
Sarah MacLean 11:20 / #
So anyway, that is where so when I say there were space romance is not new. There were definitely I mean these are huge writers. These are the big names of the 80s writing these space romances 80s and 90s. And so certainly there was there, they appeared here and there, but there are more of them now. And there are more that are sort of well-known and respected and, um, real fucking entertaining, frankly.
Oh, God. Yeah. Well, that's, I think that's, I think what it is too. So here's a little secret about me as a reader, which is. Oh, are you okay?
I was just gonna say um, "Warrior's Woman" is was published in 1990.
Jennifer Prokop 12:11 / #
I am a more of a sci-fi person than a fantasy person. Just in general, right? When I move Back to the Future and movies I loved about space travel and aliens and Star Wars, Star Trek, all of that is way more my jam. And so one of the things about space romances is I um, I feel like there's there's world building but it's less maybe? You know, fantasy. I am not a good enough reader. I'm gonna own that. I'm just like, "Oh shit, who is this guy again?" You know what I mean? I feel somehow fantasy, it requires more of me as a reader in a way that I'm like, "Uhh I'm not good at this." So I do think it's that imprinting thing. When I think about Star Wars, Back to the Future, Star Trek, that whole decade where I was growing up and just I couldn't get enough of it. So part of me is like, "Of course I love these space romances. They're amazing." If Han, I mean all we ever get from Han Solo and Princess Leia is that one fucking kiss or whatever, right? We deserve more. We deserve better. We deserve space threesomes.
Sarah MacLean 13:27 / #
Yeah. laughing We deserve sex planets, so let's just make it so.
Movie Dialogue 13:34 / #
"Make it so. Sir? Do it."
Sarah MacLean 13:40 / #
Um, okay, so we're in. We're in a golden age. I would say.
Jennifer Prokop 13:45 / #
Yes. I love it.
Sarah MacLean 13:46 / #
Of space romance. Well, wait, where should we start? Should we just, should should we start with this series that...
Jennifer Prokop 13:53 / #
Brought us together!
Sarah MacLean 13:55 / #
Oh, well, we should start...laugh everyone thinks that it was IAD but it wasn't I mean Jen and I knew each other through the IAD you know universe,
Jennifer Prokop 14:05 / #
But our real bonding happened...
Sarah MacLean 14:07 / #
Yeah, but our real bonding came over Grace Goodwin
"The Interstellar Bride" series.
I'm so embarrassed by this whole episode.
Jennifer Prokop 14:18 / #
No. I'm not. They're fucking awesome.
Sarah MacLean 14:20 / #
They are.
Jennifer Prokop 14:20 / #
But you know what? I was. I was on a family vacation where there were more people than seats in cars. And so somehow I kept always getting left behind, which I swear didn't mean to happen, but it was get the kids and the grandparents there. And I was like, "Whatever you're going to a kid's movie, it's fine." And I read a ton of these fucking books you guys one after the other. I literally could not get enough of them.
Sarah MacLean 14:44 / #
What's the series name?
"The Interstellar Bride" series.
Yeah. Oh my God. So you guys. Okay, so Jen. Picture this. Let me paint you a picture. So Jen and I are not friends yet. I mean, we're friendly. We like each other on Twitter. We're follow, we follow each other on Twitter. But um, I don't know how it fucking happened. I think it probably happened because "Ice Planet Barbarians". So Sophie Jordan, who is joining us next week for "The Master", is a dear friend of mine and she loves a bananas book just more than anybody in the whole world. And she started reading those "Ice Planet Barbarians" books by Ruby Dixon. And we found ourselves down the rabbit hole, the two of us, and it was you know, we I looked up a week later and I've read like 17 of those blue alien books. It's, the whole week is a blur. And, um, and I would recommend the first, you know, however many you want to read until you're ready, you know, at some point, you'll just overdose on them and then you'll just be like, "Okay, I'm done with these blue alien books."
It's like when you're at a bar and you're drinking. It's the first real night nice of summer and you're drinking maybe some kind of frozen cocktail. They're going down real easy. And then all of a sudden you're like, "Whoa, I just did. Wait, I just overdid it."
Exactly. I imagine it's what, I've never done cocaine, but I imagine it's like coke. You're like, "This is great!" And then you're like, "Whoa, I need a nap."
Yeah, that was it. So we had to shift from that to another similar series, right?
Then we started, so then it was just one of those things where, anytime anybody asked, "What's the craziest thing you've read recently?" We'd be like, "Well, have you read Ice Planet Barbarians?" Because it's weird. I mean, a spaceship crashes. A woman out in this ice planet. She comes she stumbles upon a giant blue alien and he immediately goes down on her. And it's crazy. So whatever. Periodically the "Ice Planet Barbarians" comes up online, and like we talk about how crazy it is. Then Jen, DMs me, I think, "Have you read these Grace Goodwin books?" And I was like, "Well no, but obviously I'm in the mood for another drug." So the structure of these books are, first of all, these are not in KU. "Ice Planet Barbarians" are in KU so you sort of feel like it's free. Grace Goodwin has put her books not. You are paying $3.99 for each one of these books. And I mean, I'm not gonna lie. I gave that money to her for a long time. These are probably not in your library either, you guys. So the first chapter you're like, "Hello. Here's the heroine having sex with two men, or whatever it is."
Jennifer Prokop 17:48 / #
But they're aliens, right?
Sarah MacLean 17:50 / #
There's 4000 books in this series. And the first one, all you know is that she's having sex. She's in the middle of sex with this person and you're like, "This feels like a very jarring entry into a book. But okay, Jen recommended it." So. And then she wakes up and you realize that she has been in a machine. In a sort of, uh,
Jennifer Prokop 17:50 / #
An MRI sex machine.
Sarah MacLean 18:14 / #
An MRI sex machine.
Jennifer Prokop 18:18 / #
Sarah, that's what it is. Hello. Instead of it being a big doughnut, it's like a big vagina.
Sarah MacLean 18:28 / #
And then she wakes up and there's a doctor and the doctor's like, "Oh, hey, you've been matched" to an interstellar, a male of a species on another planet and you are a human. You're basically a fertile human, female, and you're basically going to be shipped off to this dude, wherever you are.
Well, and it's always this alien.
With sex compatibility.
Yeah, and the deal is that at least for the ones I've read, this interstellar bride program right, the other the alien planet, they have pairs of alien men essentially agreed to mate this woman or that's how it works on their planet because it's so dangerous that that way if one of them dies, the other one will be able to you know,
Protect her.
Jennifer Prokop 19:29 / #
Protect her and still be there for her. Now none of them ever die. So it's just these, polyamorous, super sexy threesomes.
Sarah MacLean 19:37 / #
But I will say, male female male.
Jennifer Prokop 19:40 / #
Oh always.
Sarah MacLean 19:40 / #
There's no crossing of the swords. Which is a big bummer for me.
Yeah, I think that's why you and I both are like, "Meh." Here's my other thing, is the the woman on earth who's part of the intake process. Her name is Warden A Gara. And as time went on, in these books, it became clear that she had some sort of backstory herself. And I was like, "It's like a year later, has she ever gotten her own book?" And I do not think so. But I bet we cannot be the only people who are like, "Warden A Gara, where is your book?"
Why doesn't she get herself in the machine?
Jennifer Prokop 20:16 / #
Well, I think she had a mate and something went wrong. And so now she's back in the pool and you know, not ready.
Sarah MacLean 20:23 / #
Sure, sure. So, take your time A Gara. Um, but here's what's really interesting because this is it. These really echo. So I'm really fascinated by the space books because I think they're doing some sort of interesting work, as part of the genre. I mean, this is welcome to Fated Mates everyone. We're gonna talk about, we're gonna try and figure out, why these
Jennifer Prokop 20:49 / #
What it's doing, right?
Sarah MacLean 20:50 / #
What, at first glance, feel like real one-handed reads, if you know what I mean, but I think doing some interesting work and what these books are doing is very similar to what medievals were doing in that they're telling a story about each one of these meetings in these Grace Goodwin books is intergalactic because intermarriage between the two cultures solidifies the relationship between the two planets. It's like your Norman female is sold to a Saxon warrior. Or vice vice versa. I don't remember my history. So I think whatever goes. So that's interesting, there's something going on there. But also then there's this very real sense of woman alone, in a world in a threatening world.
Jennifer Prokop 21:44 / #
Yeah, sure.
Sarah MacLean 21:45 / #
And there's something really compelling about that. In 2019 for me, I've been talking a lot about, you and I haven't talked in a ton about how it feels like now, in 2019, you have to options and romance you have the super soft, really gentle calm love story. Or you have like, space prison planet book. And we're gonna get to. The two. I feel like they're scratching the same itch, socially. Because I'm right now not really that interested in a soft book because I want to see threat. I want to see anger. I want to see women and people in marginalized communities triumphing over, you know, the worst. But I think a lot of people are like, "The world is horrible. And I just want to escape into my like, soft cinnamon roll of a book."
And I think that they're two sides of the same coin, which is how when, we think about like, "What does romance?" How does romance approach the patriarchy?" And I think one of the things we've talked a lot about is, we're excited about the way that it you know, I was reading really interesting thread this morning that was when we talk about romance being by women for women, that it that's that used to be true, but now it's also really trying, I think, at least the books I'm interested in trying to be a place for anyone who's on the downside of the gender spectrum, right? Anyone who's not a cis het male. And so therefore, opening up for non binary for queer people, right? And so I think that these books are really pushing against sometimes too gender dynamics, because one of the big differences I think of in these books is that women aren't always just receptacles or receivers. Sometimes they're fighting back. Sometimes they're the heroine. Sometimes they're saving their mate. Sometimes. I feel like there's a lot of ways in which it's, you put, you put people in space and then sometimes their roles. Whether they be gender roles or work related roles or marriage roles. Kind of, "get a chance to change because now you're in a different society." So I do think that that's, that's what it is too. So it's exploring like, "Who are we in relationship to this institution?" Maybe? Whether it be the prison planet, the meeting, the inter bride program, whatever.
Yeah, I agree. I think there's something really interesting to be said for, for just how these books are. It's weird because almost all of them sort of really solidify in some ways underscore that kind of physical difference between the sort of women as the weaker sex
Hmm, yeah right? Well, cause the aliens are always seven feet tall. It's like a monster dash, right?
Even in, so let's talk about let's talk about Emmy Chandler next. So, if you follow me on Twitter you know that I, about three weeks ago went through this massive Emmy Chandler phase. I was on retreat with a bunch of other authors, somebody recommended, we were talking about, I was with Sophie Jordan, Sophie loves a prison book, we're talking about these prison planet books. And now I can't remember the name of that series either. Anyway, and I had never read them. So I picked up the first of the Emmy Chandler prison planet books. The first one is called Guardian. Oh, it's just called Prison Planet, the series. And so the concept is people get shipped off from planet from, again, it's kind of a star trekky kind of futuristic society where there are many different planet many different planetary planets that are in part of some sort of planetary consortium. And if you commit a crime, you are sent to this prison planet where
Jennifer Prokop 26:22 / #
It's Australia.
Sarah MacLean 26:24 / #
Yeah, where there are sectors and each sector has a different kind of criminal in it. And women and men are sent to all the sectors and it's a very intense. Content warning on this. There's a lot of threat of sexual violence in this book. Because obviously, when you are in a position where women and men are imprisoned in a enclosed space, no matter how big the enclosed space like that sexual dynamic is that that dynamic of sex is going to be there between them. And it's overarching. There is a constant threat of sexual violence in these books. But what Emmy Chandler is doing here in that...so the first one is called Guardian and basically a woman is sent to this to this prison planet and then she discovers, she gets to choose her mate, like meat, she gets to choose the man who she is with for 30 days. And then his job is to protect and feed and clothe her and her job is, you know, to pleasure him and he of course, is very noble and heroic. And it all works out sort of fine at the end, although I want to talk about what fine means in the context of some of these books. The second one Hunter is my favorite of them.
Me too. And it's the most dangerous game basically, right?
Yeah. Yeah. So very rich people get to pay money to come down onto the prison planet and hunt killers basically in an enclosed space. So it's like Hunger Games, there's an enclosed space with lots of cameras and things that are monitoring you. In that one, the heroine gets herself put into this enclosed space too. So the hero and heroine are both being hunted by the same man. And the heroine is a technological genius. He is just physical, pure brute physical strength. She is mental. She's just a genius. And so to get so she saves the day in that book with her intellect,
Jennifer Prokop 28:50 / #
Right, and he keeps them safe when they're out in the woods essentially, right? I mean, so it's together they're this unbeatable team. Even against all of the ways in which they're ... the other hunter has weapons has technology as cameras can find them. There's these really terrifying metal dogs that essentially are just if they run into you, they're just gonna rip you to shreds. I mean, it's a classic, like "The Most Dangerous Game" is a classic, short story about a general who essentially creates his own island, right? And he's gonna hunt, the people who get shipwrecked on the island, and he sets up essentially a trap to shipwreck them. And have you read this?
Sarah MacLean 29:38 / #
No. But I mean I know the premise.
Jennifer Prokop 29:40 / #
You know, the trope, right? And it has to be an island the same way this has to be a prison planet, right? You have to be isolated. And even if you can defeat the hunter, how are you going to escape is always the meta question that's kinda underneath, right? There's no real escape from any of it even if you can beat this one, this one guy.
Sarah MacLean 30:04 / #
No. And so the third one, "Champion," is lady gladiator. She gets to choose her, she's sentenced to death, and she gets to choose the way she dies and she chooses fighting as a gladiator on the prison planet for TV. And the only woman who's ever done it. That's real Hunger Games-y. She gets a makeover and she has sponsors. If you loved the Hunger Games, and you wish there had been sex in it, and you are not scared and you are not triggered by sexual violence in any way. Nobody in these books actually, gets raped. But it's ... It's a threat constantly.
Jennifer Prokop 30:51 / #
Or it's happened in the past, right? I mean, in the second one, she's essentially been or no is it?
Sarah MacLean 30:57 / #
I think she kills him before. I mean, you should not, if that is triggering for you at all, you should not read these books. But that third one, "Champion," and you can read these standalone. You do not need to read them in order. But "Champion" is, if somebody said to me like, "I want Hunger Games, but a romance." It's "Champion." Um, anyway, and then they go on from there. But there's something really interesting about these books, especially now in that happily ever after in these books, can't really be happy.
Jennifer Prokop 31:35 / #
Cause the world is not righted.
Sarah MacLean 31:37 / #
They're still on a prison planet. Right? So it's a really odd. There's something very satisfying. They were incredibly satisfying for me as I was reading them. But I really I keep going back to why is because we talk all the time -- one of the big questions that -- I'm sorry, I know I'm talking a lot...One of the big questions we have a lot is it In historical, specifically, is, "Why don't people write poor characters in historical romances?" I mean, in contemporary is too. And the answer has always been well, because it's not, if you're poor, is it happily ever after? If you're more literally worried about where your next meal is coming from. Is it happily ever after? And these people are alone on a prison planet.
Here's what I think it's really about. I think this is the work right? We talk a lot about partnership, right? That's what a romance sort of delivers at the end is, these two individuals have become like a team, right? And now they're going to face whatever struggles to happen together. And I think that's why it ultimately works because even though they're still danger in their future, and we know that. We also know that they have come through something where we trust that whatever their future, right, whatever this future conflict is going to be for them, that they are going to tackle it together. And there's something really appealing about that. Right? And I don't necessarily, by the way, think that that's just a romance thing. I think that's a friendship thing. I think a lot of these books have, build communities of people together, right? I think going back to Ice Planet Barbarians, they all start to work together. And it's literally watching a new society form. Only it's one often where gender differences are irrelevant, or there's more equality. You know, people are essentially literally making a new world for themselves. So I think that's why that's really appealing.
Mm hmm. I agree. And it feels like if they could triumph over these really dark moments. If you can be a lady gladiator and survive, then what can't you do?
Jennifer Prokop 34:12 / #
You got this right? Well, and often I will also point out that almost always those external conflicts are human in nature. Right? So it's you got kidnapped and sent to the ice planet barbarians. These men who set up the the gladiator dome and you're in it or whatever. So they're beating humanity, and then forming something new on this new planet. I mean, I think really profoundly. It's this idea that we're starting over. We're going to do this better. We're not going to end up in 2019. We started there, but we don't have to end up there.
Sarah MacLean 34:53 / #
Yeah, well, what's interesting is that they're not all this kind of gendered? Funkiness and, and that's where I want to go next because I want to go to Robin Lovett's books. Um, Robin Lovett is writing a series called Planet of Desire. The first one is called "Toxic Desire." Fun fact. Johanna Lindsey. No, Johanna Lindsey, wrong. Fun fact, Sophie Jordan and Joanna Shupe both texted me about "Toxic Desire" within 18 hours of each other. I don't think you all have heard Joanna talk about bananas books. You will hear Sophie next week to talk about "The Master." But when they both recommend a book, I know it's gonna be special. So Planet of Desire is Robin Lovett series, where, again, it's futuristic, there's kind of an intergalactic Space Consortium, there's a big bad planet or bad guys.
Jennifer Prokop 36:05 / #
It's the 10 planets Consortium, I think or something right?
Sarah MacLean 36:09 / #
Yeah. Yeah, it's like the EU of space.
Jennifer Prokop 36:11 / #
And the thing that's really interesting, before you launch into this is, all of the, if you're working on one of the 10 planets ships, they demand that you be essentially gender neutral, but what that really means is that you are essentially disguising yourself if you're a woman to present more as a man. And so what happens is they land on this, this sex planet, and the reason it's a sex planet is because there's something literally in the atmosphere, the Desedre or whatever, I don't how to say it.
Sarah MacLean 36:43 / #
Aphrodisiac. The atmosphere itself is an aphrodisiac.
Jennifer Prokop 36:47 / #
And you can't get away from it right?
Sarah MacLean 36:50 / #
You're gonna die. If you don't have sex, you will die.
Jennifer Prokop 36:53 / #
Yeah, masturbating is not enough. It has to be a mutual thing, right?
Sarah MacLean 36:57 / #
Well, masturbating will help for a little bit. Yeah ultimately, you gotta have sex. And it doesn't matter it's can be there it can be. It can be any form of sex with, it's polyamory, queer, queer sex, whatever kind of sex you want.
Jennifer Prokop 37:15 / #
It does not have to be P in V.
Sarah MacLean 37:17 / #
It's about the emotional connection between the two, three, four, however many people.
Then what happens is, people there are as I mean, in the first one, there's an enemy. So the the alien kind of male of the species who's there hates the 10 planets people.
Enemies to lovers. Yeah. Cuz he was on. He was a prisoner on the ship or something? Anyway, he has gold skin. And, and when they when he when anybody has sex with this, this type of creature I mean, not creature but this type of being in the world. Yeah, they then turn gold.
Jennifer Prokop 38:06 / #
I know, it's amazing!
Sarah MacLean 38:06 / #
It's so crazy.
That sex is gonna make you golden.
But that's a really good one because he was this is again, it's a classic old school romance trope. "I was imprisoned by your people. I hate you by virtue of you being those people."
Jennifer Prokop 38:24 / #
And yet here we are together.
Sarah MacLean 38:26 / #
Here we are. We're forced. We are forced together and it's on. It's not only forced proximity, it's for sexual proximity, because if we don't do it, we're gonna die.
Jennifer Prokop 38:37 / #
And this is a whole series then plays around with a bunch of other things. And the second one, there's essentially a sex Olympics, of course.
Sarah MacLean 38:44 / #
Yeah. Well, that also again, we're back to if you like the Hunger Games. Hunger Games read alikes, with Jen and Sarah! Hey scholastic!
Jennifer Prokop 38:59 / #
We're like defiling your intellectual property.
Sarah MacLean 39:03 / #
Um, cuz that second one is sex in an arena. Not gladiators. Fucking.
It's performative. It's in public. It's a voyeuristic. I mean, because then there's...
I really like the whole community though.
Well, the, essentially the people, that alien race that lives on this planet then has developed a certain kind of culture based around this.
The need.
Jennifer Prokop 39:38 / #
I will say this, if you liked the idea of Feveris in Dark Skye. This is this is the series for you. This is your next book after that.
Sarah MacLean 39:50 / #
But I really love it because it's so sex positive. All the people are, "I don't understand. Why are you being so weird about sex?"
Jennifer Prokop 40:00 / #
You know, when we as people on earth travel, I think, at least I would hope most of us have this basic understanding that it's not our place to put our cultural mores on to that new place we're visiting, but to experience, what's going on here? To eat the food of the place, you're going. To try and speak the language, right? We understand that is sort of our responsibility when we choose to travel. But what if when we travel some other world, it really is fundamentally seems wrong with what you've either learned about who you are as a person or your culture. And it's kind of rules and morality. And then it really becomes, again, that conflict level really ramps up because now it's person versus society. And you're like, "Hey, this isn't how I'm supposed to act, but I have to do it in order to survive here." And those kinds of really strong internal conflicts are which are pressure from an external conflict -- that's always a real interesting. I like that. It's real meaty.
Sarah MacLean 41:10 / #
I agree. I mean and I think that's done very well in third book in this series which is just now out is it just out?
Or it, we both just got it from NetGalley let me look.
In the third book in the series, the hero is a person from the homeworld. This is his world. Yes. And because of by virtue of the sex requirement, all the time sex to stay alive on this planet, right? The the characters the people who live on this planet, they don't really believe in love. They don't believe in monogamy. I'm sorry, not love. They don't believe in monogamy. And so the concept of monogamy is incredibly foreign to them, and problematic for them because they're like, "Well, wait a second. Because what if something happens?" Right? Like what if?
You know, your mate has to leave you for a week. You're gonna die. It's just, it's impossible. It's impossible to be monogamous and live on this planet. Right?
Well, and this dude has a special gift.
He's a shaman or something.
Jennifer Prokop 42:20 / #
He's a sex god. He has to share it with the people.
Sarah MacLean 42:24 / #
So yeah. So basically his whole thing is, if you're sick on this planet, he has special energy that he can infuse in you but he has to do it via sex. It's all real bananas. Robin. I mean, what is happening in your head? PS: I love you, Robin. I met you a BA and you're amazing.
Jennifer Prokop 42:46 / #
No, but you know, this is one though, where instead of her just acclimating to his rules. She has. She he acclimates to sort of her culture, right? And she has this real concern about, "It's complicated," of course. But every single one of the conflicts that happens is really about again, "Who am I? Who do I want to be? Should having a sexual relationship with someone make it so that they're my mate for life?" I mean, essentially, it's her drama because of her. You know, she is not even entirely human. She's some other thing too.
Sarah MacLean 43:23 / #
But I think for him, his conflict is really interesting too, because if you're born into a destiny, do you have no other choice? His whole conflict is society versus self. In a very concrete way. "If I take if I do the thing that I want to do for myself, I have to turn my back on this responsibility that I have towards my society." I mean, it's very it is actually very Dark Skye, this kind of in you know if...
Well, Robin is reading Dark Skye right now.
But if Thronos didn't have such a stick up his ass about everything it would be very Dark Skye. So yeah I mean so I've really liked this. I like it for another reason to that I just want to shout out and this is not to say look, most people in romance, are not public about their entire persona. I use a pseudonym. I am Sarah in real life but you know names are all changed and it's funky but a lot of these sex planet books or space books are written under very private pseudonyms. I'm sure partially because they're there is something kind of salacious and scandalous about them at first glance. Robin is very public, she's a public figure. She uses her actual photo and I'm not dissing anybody who doesn't do that, but I just want to give an extra shout out to her for being brave.
She's great. And I think that's what it is, too. I think, fundamentally, you know, I think, sometimes erotic romance gets this really hard rap. "Meh. It's it's just porn." Obviously, no one listening to us thinks that. We don't think that. But I do think books that really examine our sense of self in conjunction with our sexuality and what that means when they aren't necessarily in alignment the way we want them to. That's, that's worth us digging into as a genre. And I think that when you a lot of the books that we've talked about so far already are really doing that and a variety of really interesting ways. And so, yeah, they deserve some credit for pushing against a, I don't know, a boundary that I think a lot of people don't really, it's harder to explore.
Yeah, I really want us to have, as a genre, I want romance, and I think this is something that places like RWA really need to sort, RWA has a lot to sort out, but someday when we get down the list from the really critical things that impact people's actual real lives in the world, I want us to have a real conversation about erotic romance. And, what it means. Why it's valuable. What the difference is between a sexy book and an erotic book. Why we need those books. Why we need to honor those books as as themselves. And I think a lot of these books are doing that work.
Jennifer Prokop 46:27 / #
Yeah, I think so. True. So I want to talk though, because sci fi / space romances aren't always just sex planet books. That's all true and interesting. But there are a couple other ones that I thought that we could talk about. Because I like science fiction so much, maybe I've read more of them. And there's a couple that have come out, in the past year, that I think are worth just mentioning. And then I want to talk about a couple that I just read that I really liked. So I want to talk about "Polaris Rising" by Jessie, is it, Mihalik? I'm not sure how I'm saying her last name correctly.
Sarah MacLean 47:12 / #
That's how I would say it but we apologize.
Jennifer Prokop 47:14 / #
This is a, now I'm gonna be really honest with you, I think this is the kind of romance light. There is a romantic arc. But I think the big arc is for our heroine, Ada von Hasenberg. And she is essentially and this is my catnip, right? So she is the princess essentially in the in the universe. There's three really powerful houses and house von Hasenberg is one of them. And she's the fifth of six children. And she has all these skills but her real job is going to be to marry somebody for her house. So this is the all the aristocracy stuff, but put in space. And a couple of years earlier she got told she was gonna have to marry somebody. And she was all like, "Fuck all y'all," and she takes off. And so she's on this space adventure and she, at the beginning of the book, has been caught kind of accidentally. She was just in the wrong place at the wrong time and someone picked her up who didn't really even know what they had and all of a sudden figures it out. And she gets put in a cell with a guy named Marcus Lock who is essentially the most wanted criminal in the galaxy.
Sarah MacLean 48:27 / #
And hey, Marcus. I wanna say this. He's known as the Devil of Fornax Zero. Which I mean everyone knows if they're called the devil then you definitely are gonna bone 'em. I mean, that's just gonna happen happen right?
And they pretty quickly figure out that they can use each other to essentially escape the ship and she promises like, "Look, I'll pay you a ton of money. If you get me out of here. If you help me get out of here," because she's crazy rich from this crazy rich family and they go on this massive space adventure. And the reason I say it's romance light is, there's a clear romantic arc but I don't think it's the A plot, right? It's like Princess Leia if she didn't have to be fucking dead weighted with Luke and everybody else, right? She is just on her own adventure and it's fucking great. And I loved it because I love, you know she's got blasters, and implants, and she has to go do all this crazy...
The cover. I know that we always joke about covers not being important and whatever read the book, but this covers badass.
And I'm going to tell you I also just read it does not come out till October 1 so maybe this is bad form, but I just read the sequel which is about Ada's sister Bianca. She has been previously married. She went through the house marriage thing. And part of the reason Ada was so sure she didn't want to do it, she saw what happened to her older sister's. Now Bianca's husband is dead. She's back in the house. And there's a big romance between her and the head of house security.
A bodyguard romance!
Jennifer Prokop 50:16 / #
Hello, exactly. And again, I feel like if you go into these books, thinking there's gonna be a romance but it's going to be kind of secondary to this Space Princess plot. Then you like me will be very happy. And I love them cuz they're about competent women.
Sarah MacLean 50:36 / #
I love it. So over the so just to confirm the series is how many books?
Jennifer Prokop 50:42 / #
It's going to be three. The first one is "Polaris Rising." It's out now. And "Aurora Blazing" comes up second.
Sarah MacLean 50:48 / #
And this plot. The meat of the plot is over three by books. It's like Game of Thrones in space.
Jennifer Prokop 50:58 / #
Yep. It sure is. House politics, right? So their house wants something from them. There's all this intrigue between them and the other houses. There's always competition, essentially.
Sarah MacLean 51:12 / #
And each of the books is a standalone romance. It's just the overarching series is the plot.
You know what, I think that people will like that. Because also I do feel like it's more common in science fiction to have the same characters over books, but I like that instead it's like the house. House Van Hasenberg.
Well it flips the script and it makes them more, it actually does make them more romancey. Because, yeah, a romance reader. Well, I mean, Jen, please, if you're recommending these, they have to be complete romances at the end. You're not gonna recommend them if at the end, you're like, "Well, are these two ending up together?"
Jennifer Prokop 51:49 / #
You're gonna get that HEA but what I really liked about it is, I think number two worked for me because they work together more. In "Polaris Rising," there's actually quite a few scenes where they split up and we follow Ada who does her own shit. Saves him a bunch of times. That worked for me too. But, I think if you need them to be on page together all the time, it's not quite the same. But I really like them a lot.
Sarah MacLean 52:20 / #
It sounds like Romancelandia really loves this book. It's on my desk because it's one of my next reads. I mean, it's on my desk with eight other books, but, and I got a puppy this week. I don't know what I'm doing.
Jennifer Prokop 52:30 / #
You're not reading space romances.
Sarah MacLean 52:31 / #
I'm also reading this book. I'm reading this puppy training book that's written by monks. I don't even know who I am.
That's real awkward. Sarah. Real awkward. Are we done?
I think so. No wait. You had a queer space romance.
Jennifer Prokop 52:48 / #
Oh, I do have one I want to shout out it's called "Treason of Truths" by Ada Harper. And it is essentially also a bodyguard romance except, so the queen or the empress, her name Sabine, so of course I was already really into liking her. And then her lover although it's real complicated at the beginning. You can't quite figure it out. Her name is Lyre. L Y R E, is that how you say it? And her job essentially is, she's the spymaster for the empress. But the book opens with her doing some negotiating and you definitely at first like, "Wait is this unrequited love?" Lyre's just super into Sabine but then they get back together and you could tell everybody thinks they're already lovers. It's kind of hidden but there's this great line at the beginning and I was all in where Sabine says something to someone in Lyre thinks, "When she says, 'Thank you,' she can make it sound like, 'Fuck you.'" And I was like, that's my kind of character right there. So that one is one that I I actually have not finished yet. But I've started once I knew we were doing this and I've been really enjoying it but I will admit I'm not there yet. I'm not done yet.
Sarah MacLean 54:08 / #
Oh great. Well I'm glad that we shouted it out. Tell us your favorite space romance because we want to read more of them. I downloaded "Warrior's Woman" like a lunatic earlier so I'm ready. I mean who am I kidding? I'm not reading this monk book. But we are very excited. I'm always jazzed when we can talk about a sub genre of romance that is feels new. Feels fresh. There are just there are only so many wallflower rakes that you know, I mean, I love a wallflower rake. God knows. But
There are no wallflowers in space, Sarah none. And maybe that's why I like it.
I don't think no. This is really fun. It's summer. It's time for space romances. If there were ever a time for space romance. It's summer.
Now, before we go, you wanted to try something new at the end of every episode.
Oh my gosh, I wasn't ready to do it today. But
Do you want me to start?
You start. Yeah. And I've got a thing that I'm yeah, I've got a thing to talk about.
So it's just sharing something fun that we had happened to us or that we did. Is that what it is?
I don't know. No, I'm thinking that it should be a like, "Is there a book that you just recently read that you think is great?" Okay, the recc. Either a book or a movie or show or thing?
Jennifer Prokop 55:38 / #
Oh, okay. So I have been watching Chernobyl on HBO to no one's surprise because everyone knows I know love a nuclear story. But you know, it's been really cool. I know.
Sarah MacLean 55:49 / #
That's so obscure and weird. Oh my god. Have you read Alyssa Cole's mixed signals?
Yeah, but wait, you didn't know that about me. You didn't know
I knew that you, vaguely but I didn't know that it was, you know, a thing you put in your bio. Send me your nuclear romances.
Okay. Actually, there are a few nuclear romances and I have not read them.
Well, that Mixed Signals one, isn't it?
All right. That's Listen, I read nonfiction nuclear books. I've read many, many books about Chernobyl. I know that's real fucking crazy, but I love it. Yeah, so I've read Actually, I'll take a picture. I put it on Twitter. You just don't follow me closely. Enough. I have a whole nuclear shelf anyway,
I have puppy now. I can't I just I can't. I can't Twitter.
Okay, here's what's really cool about if you've watched the show. They also have a podcast that goes along with it. And what's really cool about the podcast is, it's the guy from Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me, which I was on one than once. I was on that once and won. But
You were on what?
Jennifer Prokop 56:55 / #
Wait, I'll tell you that in a minute. Wait, and he's interviewing the writer. And what they do is they kind of go through the episode and talk about what parts are true and where they came from and which parts he essentially wrote in. So it's a really cool way of experiencing the show. Kind of like, if you ever have that question when, you're watching something that's based on real events, you're like, "Which parts real which parts aren't?" The podcast is so fun to listen to, as you watch because that, or after you watch, because then you're like, "Oh, that's a composite character. Oh, that dialogue actually came straight from voices from Chernobyl," so I really recommend the podcast in the show.
You can recommend puppy books, I guess.
Nope. No, I you guys, I so I really love the movies, but I don't go to them enough. And that is the thing that is real. But I went to see Book Smart.
Jennifer Prokop 58:00 / #
Oh, I want to see that!
Sarah MacLean 58:02 / #
My lovely friend Megan Frampton, and Megan and I live five or six blocks from each other and in between our houses - this is what's so great about living in a city - is a movie theater. So we met in the middle and we went to see Book Smart, which is, I said to my husband, "It is the greatest last night of high school movie I've ever seen." Basically if you loved all those high school coming of age movies, this movie is about the very last night of high school. Tomorrow morning is graduation. And the heroine is the valedictorian and her best friend, who is the salutatorian - is that how you say that? Salutatorian. And they are adorable workaholic. Well, the valedictorian is an adorable workaholic nerd. And the salutatorian is mega feminist nerd. And they've done nothing but be each other's friends and study to get into the best possible colleges and to do their amazing things after after high school. And then on the last day of school, she discovers that all the kids who she thinks like, "Well, they've just slacked off and not done anything. And they're all going to, you know, nowhere colleges and she's gonna end up being their boss," turns out, they're all going to Yale and Princeton, Stanford and big colleges, and she realizes in the very beginning of this movie, she's basically missed out on high school because she was so panicked for the rest of her life. So she had that one night to rectify it. It's like a buddy movie. And it has all the beats. There's a little there's a little bit of a romance in it. It has all the beats that you love in these movies. If you love these movies, which I do, and I just highly, highly recommend it. It's written by a woman. Produced, it's got a giant female, lots and lots of women working on it. The crew, and it's written by Olivia Wilde who's, you know, awesome talented. Jason Sudeikis, is in it.
Jennifer Prokop 1:00:30 / #
Hmm, that sounds so good.
Sarah MacLean 1:00:31 / #
So is Lisa Kudrow.
Well, it's summertime it's time for me to get my movie on so I'm here for it.
If you like a high school movie. But you teach high school you well you teach junior high.
I don't. I teach middle school but you know, my son is in high school and I am always telling him, "Just enjoy high school. Stop fucking falling for this crazy idea that your life will only matters."
I want you to watch it with him and then tell me what he thinks.
Jennifer Prokop 1:00:58 / #
I will report back to you.
Sarah MacLean 1:00:59 / #
Yeah, I want to know what real kids - kids on the street - feel. But I really loved it.
Kids on the street are still in bed at 11:30 / # in the morning, fine.
That's a great life.
Jennifer Prokop 1:01:10 / #
It seriously is.
Sarah MacLean 1:01:11 / #
It really is. I would be in bed if I didn't have you know, kids and a dog. And a husband.
Jennifer Prokop 1:01:18 / #
Self-inflicted!
Sarah MacLean 1:01:22 / #
All right, my love's. This was Fated Mates. Don't forget to subscribe, like and subscribe in your favorite podcasting app. Find us on Twitter at Fated Mates. Find us on Instagram at Fated Mates pod. Check out the show notes because Jen is amazing and does beautiful show notes. There will be cover images this year.
Jennifer Prokop 1:01:42 / #
Yeah. Oh yeah. Just a quick reminder everybody that the Moon and Mars are two different places. Have fun in space.
Sarah MacLean 1:02:31 / #
Well masturbating will help for a little bit, but ultimately, you gotta have sex.
Jennifer Prokop 1:02:37 / #
It does not have to be P in V.
Movie Dialogue 1:03:29 / #
Waiter all have with she's having only less pepper