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S04.36: Jude Deveraux: Trailblazer

Our Trailblazer episodes continue this week with Jude Deveraux, an early historical romance author who broke several publishing barriers over her more than forty year career.

In this episode, we talk about her journey through the Wild West of romance in the late 1970s, her publishing career at Avon Books, Pocket Books and Ballantine. We talk about the judgement and misogyny that circles romance, the buying power of readers, and the way the genre and bookselling has changed. We also talk about her writing process, and what it’s like to be Jude Deveraux. This one is a real joy for us, as we wouldn’t be the readers or writers we are without Jude Deveraux.

This episode is sponsored by Avon Books, publisher of Joanna Shupe’s The Bride Goes Rogue, and Amazon’s Kindle Vella, publisher of Eloisa James’s The Seduction Series.

Show Notes

Like many of our trailblazers, Jude Deveraux’s first brush with romance was Kathleen E Woodiwiss’s The Flame & the Flower. The publisher with “the prettiest covers” in the 1970s she references was Woodiwiss’s publisher, Avon Books.

Books of Jude Deveraux’s that we talk about in depth include: The Enchanted Land (her debut novel), A Knight in Shining Armor (early time-travel romance), Sweet Liar, The Providence Falls series with Tara Sheets, The Girl from Summer Hill, Twin of Ice (the twins!!), and “The Matchmakers” a short story in The Invitation collection (featuring Cale & the angel sex scene).

The Four Js were Jude Deveraux, Julie Garwood, Johanna Lindsey and Judith McNaught.

People mentioned in the episode: Kate Duffy, editor at Silhouette Books and Pocket Books; Joan Schulhafer, publicist at Pocket Books; Richard Gallen, publisher & packager; Ronald Busch, publisher of Pocket Books; Robert Gottlieb, agent; Linda Marrow, editor at Ballantine/Doubleday/Dell; Kathryn Falk, publisher of Romantic Times Magazine; Kathe Robin, reviewer at Romantic Times Magazine.

Books Mentioned This Episode

Sponsors

This week’s episode of Fated Mates is sponsored by:

Avon Books, publisher of Joanna Shupe’s The Bride Goes Rogue, available at
Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo or your local independent bookseller.

Visit avonbooks.com

and

Amazon’s Kindle Vella, publisher of Eloisa James’s The Seduction series,
available at amazon.com/kindlevella.

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S04.21: Sandra Kitt: Trailblazer

Annnnd….we’re back! This week, we’ve got a new Trailblazer episode: Sandra Kitt—the first African American author at Harlequin (Rites of Spring, Harlequin American #43)—joins us to talk about the early days of writing category romance in the US, about writing for Vivian Stephens, about launching romance lines at Kensington and BET, and about her longstanding career. She also talks about writing the books that speak to you first and finding an audience for them later.

This conversation is far reaching and could have gone for hours longer — our hope is that it is not the last time Sandra will join us at Fated Mates. We are so grateful to her for making time for us.

Find the full list of trailblazer episodes here. For more conversations with Sandra Kitt, please listen to her episode of the Black Romance Podcast.

Join us LIVE tonight, Feburary 9th, for our special edition IAD celebration/Fated Mates funtime/Munro/Very likely Derek Craven too episode! Tickets are “pay what you wish” at live.fatedmates.net, you’re welcome to join us for free, or make a donation to help offset the costs of transcribing this season’s Trailblazer episodes.

Our next read along will feature some of Sarah’s favorite quick & dirty books by London Hale, the pen name of authors Ellis Leigh and Brighton Walsh. Their Temperance Falls series is full of kinks and tropes and HEAs and while we won’t be talking about all ten books, we’ll definitely be talking about a few of them. Specific titles to follow, but Sarah is for sure going to want you to read Talk Dirty to Me, which is older mayor of the town heroine, younger firefighter and also phone sex operator hero because…obviously. The whole series is free in KU.

TRANSCRIPT

Sandra Kitt 00:00:00 / #: I remember back in the late '80s when I was really just getting started and people were really beginning to know my name.

00:00:06 / #: I once had a teacher said to me that she used to think of romances as being just trashy novels. And then she started reading them and she said, "I realized that my girls in school, these are important books for them to read." Because the stories were always pretty much middle-class and higher, and because there was always a happy ending, she said, "This is their first introduction to what healthy man-woman relationships could be like."

00:00:43 / #: The stories could be perceived as being a little bit of a fantasy, but she said, "These are pretty much on target. This is what we want. This is what we want in a relationship, a guy who's going to respect you, a guy who's going to make you laugh, who's going to talk to you, who's not going to play you." And so if they're 14, 15, 16 years old and they're reading these books, this is a pretty good start on what relationships could be like.

Jennifer Prokop 00:01:09 / #: That was the voice of Sandra Kitt, one of the first authors for Harlequin American under the new line formed by Vivian Stephens. And the first African American author to write for Harlequin.

00:01:23 / #: We are pretty excited to share what comes from this conversation. We're going to talk a lot about category romance and its evolution and some amazing stories.

Sarah MacLean 00:01:35 / #: Yeah, some great stories.

Jennifer Prokop 00:01:37 / #: Welcome to Faded Mates everyone. I'm Jennifer Prokop, a romance reader and editor.

Sarah MacLean 00:01:43 / #: And I'm Sarah McLean. I read romance novels and I write them. And this is Sandra Kitt.

Jennifer Prokop 00:01:55 / #: All right, we're ready.

Sarah MacLean 00:01:57 / #: So thank you so much for joining us. We are really thrilled to have you.

Sandra Kitt 00:02:01 / #: Thank you.

Sarah MacLean 00:02:02 / #: I told Jen right before we started that I had a little taste of ... I know some of your stories because we've had lunch together.

Sandra Kitt 00:02:12 / #: Oh, yes. Great fun. Great fun.

Sarah MacLean 00:02:14 / #: And maybe now-

Jennifer Prokop 00:02:15 / #: All you New Yorkers making new jealous.

Sandra Kitt 00:02:16 / #: I know.

Sarah MacLean 00:02:18 / #: Now that we're all getting vaccinated, it might actually happen again.

Jennifer Prokop 00:02:22 / #: Yeah, I think so.

Sandra Kitt 00:02:22 / #: I hope so. I hope so.

Sarah MacLean 00:02:23 / #: Exactly.

Sandra Kitt 00:02:24 / #: I hope so.

Sarah MacLean 00:02:26 / #: Sandra, let's start at the beginning. How did you become a writer?

Sandra Kitt 00:02:33 / #: Well, I guess I first have to say that I was not looking to become a writer. When this all happened to me, I was very happy in a professional career as an astronomy librarian at the American Museum of Natural History in New York. And it was-

Jennifer Prokop 00:02:52 / #: I love astronomy and the moon. I'm so excited right now.

Sarah MacLean 00:02:55 / #: It's the coolest job.

Sandra Kitt 00:02:58 / #: ... It was a very, very cool job. And working at the museum was just great fun. I met the most amazing people there, beginning with Isaac Asimov, with whom I became very good friends with him and his wife. And illustrated two books for him.

00:03:15 / #: And following through the whole astronaut era of being able to meet them up until, and even now, Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson, with whom I worked for almost 20 years before he went off to become a rock star. And I continued doing women's fiction and romances.

00:03:34 / #: So it was a wonderful` career. And actually what happened was it was very instantaneous and haphazard, really. I got an idea one day for a story. I had never written a story before, but going through school, I wrote a lot of poetry and little romantic scenes. I wouldn't call them stories. And I got this idea for a story, which came to me in my head, fully, fully developed in about five minutes.

00:04:04 / #: And I went home that evening after work and sat down and began writing. I had no idea what I was doing. I wasn't sure what the format of a book was supposed to be like. And I wrote this story in about six weeks, and it was over a 100,000 words. So that tells you how much it just absolutely flowed out of me.

Jennifer Prokop 00:04:23 / #: Amazing.

Sandra Kitt 00:04:24 / #: And this day, to this day, I've always, I still believe that was the book that I was meant to write. And ultimately, it was published as The Color of Love. So that was my seminal book. That's the one that I'm most known for. That's the one that continues to sell.

Sarah MacLean 00:04:44 / #: But that wasn't the first book that you published.

Sandra Kitt 00:04:47 / #: That wasn't the first book that I published.

Jennifer Prokop 00:04:50 / #: It's the first book you wrote.

Sandra Kitt 00:04:50 / #: The very first book I wrote.

Sarah MacLean 00:04:50 / #: Walk us through how that happens.

Sandra Kitt 00:04:55 / #: How it got from the first book to the first published book. Well, I had no expectations of getting published. I really wrote the book for myself. I'd never seen a story like The Color of Love. That was not the working title. It was something else at the time.

Sarah MacLean 00:05:10 / #: For everyone, The Color of Love is about a white police officer and a Black heroine.

Sandra Kitt 00:05:15 / #: Which remains so topical even today.

Jennifer Prokop 00:05:20 / #: Right.

Sarah MacLean 00:05:20 / #: Right.

Sandra Kitt 00:05:21 / #: Yeah. It did have a white police officer. The story took place in New York where I was born and raised. And the heroine was an African American book designer who worked in publishing. They met in a very strange, fortuitous way, purely happenstance, again. And because of the way they met, she came to his aid one morning when she found them outside of her house.

00:05:44 / #: He returned six weeks later to thank her. And he was both stunned that he had done that, and so was she. But it began a friendship. And of course, ultimately what happened with the friendship, once they got over their qualms about being interested in someone of another race, they began to fall in love.

00:06:02 / #: And it's a story about how they overcame all of the obstacles, of which there were many, in order for them to commit to their love and to show each other how much they really believed in each other and loved each other.

00:06:17 / #: I'm very proud of that book. I thought what I wanted to do, besides write an interracial story, because I was looking at the world I lived in, in New York, in the country. And we don't talk about it, but it's not as if interracial couples have never existed before. But I wanted to not only see if I could write a story that was credible about an interracial relationship, I decided to really throw in the kitchen sink by making the hero a cop. Because then, as now, the relationship between law enforcement and communities with people of color has always been tenuous, has always been very, very rocky. So I wanted to see if I could write a story that the readers would believe, that they would believe that this was even possible. And I think I succeeded just in the history of the story itself, and where it is even now, in the history of romances and women's fiction.

Sarah MacLean 00:07:17 / #: You came out of the gate swinging for the fences.

Sandra Kitt 00:07:19 / #: I did.

Sarah MacLean 00:07:20 / #: Ground us. What's the year that we're talking about at this point?

Sandra Kitt 00:07:23 / #: I began writing that story and finishing it in 1980. So I'm also giving my age.

Jennifer Prokop 00:07:30 / #: That's okay.

Sarah MacLean 00:07:31 / #: Barely even born, barely even born. That's fine.

Sandra Kitt 00:07:34 / #: Thank you. Thank you, Sarah. Love you. Love you.

Sarah MacLean 00:07:37 / #: But it wasn't published until-

Sandra Kitt 00:07:39 / #: It was 15 years.

Sarah MacLean 00:07:40 / #: ... 1995, right?

Sandra Kitt 00:07:42 / #: It was 15 years before I could get it published. And that's not to say I didn't circulate it among all of the publishing houses.

Sarah MacLean 00:07:48 / #: Sure.

Sandra Kitt 00:07:48 / #: And what I consistently got back as feedback from the editors is that, "This is a really well-written book. It's really, really interesting, and I don't think we can publish it." And they would say, "We just don't know what we would do with it, because it's such a taboo subject." And that was the word they used, taboo, because it was this whole interracial thing. We take it for granted now in the 21st century.

Sarah MacLean 00:08:14 / #: In 1995, yeah.

Sandra Kitt 00:08:14 / #: Yeah. But in 1980, it was not done. And you should see if there are any other interracial stories around that era, and there really aren't. I can only think of one, but it wasn't considered a romance. It was considered commercial fiction, and it had a different kind of theme.

Jennifer Prokop 00:08:31 / #: Right, yeah. Well, what they had in the '80s were those awful romances with Native American men and historicals.

Sandra Kitt 00:08:39 / #: My feeling about them publishing them with Native American heroes or using Arab sheiks and all that, it was just an excuse to write about someone who was of color. And so it became exotic. You write about Native American falling in love with a white woman. It was always a white woman.

00:09:04 / #: It's all kinds of things. It's exploring an issue that no one ever talked about. So if you write about it in terms of historic fiction, then it's a little bit more acceptable rather than placing it in the 20th or now, the 21st century. If you say this is a story that took place in the 1800s, it's acceptable because it was the past.

00:09:25 / #: So my feeling is that I don't think it was a deliberate intent. But the way I read it, is that this was a way of exploring the whole issue of interracial romances by setting the story, first of all, in a historical period. And then, using other races that were still exotic because we really didn't know a lot about them, including our own Native Americans or the Arab countries. Or people who are Spanish, or people who are South Asian, that kind of thing.

00:09:59 / #: But I just went for the jugular. I just said, "I'm going to set this in America and let's see where the chips fall."

Sarah MacLean 00:10:05 / #: Nice.

Sandra Kitt 00:10:05 / #: Let's see where the chips fall.

Sarah MacLean 00:10:07 / #: Okay, so you have The Color of Love, which is not titled that at the time, but whatever you have this.

Sandra Kitt 00:10:13 / #: No, I think the working title originally was Through the Eyes of Love.

Sarah MacLean 00:10:19 / #: That's also nice.

Sandra Kitt 00:10:19 / #: And then at a second revision, writing through it, I named it Barriers, then it segues, the final title was The Color of Love, and that was just the perfect title for it. It really spoke very specifically about what the book is about. But once I finished it, I put it aside because as I said, I was writing for myself.

00:10:41 / #: I was writing stories that I had not seen in the industry, in the marketplace, in the bookstores, and the story came to me. I said, "This is a great story, the people who would like to read this." So I wrote a second book and I finished it, and then I wrote a third book and I finished it. And it wasn't until I finished that third book that I realized, because I had so many ideas coming to me so fast, I said, "Maybe some of this is publishable."

00:11:11 / #: Now, at the time, 1981, Harlequin had decided to start a new romance line where the stories were set completely in America, because they were a Canadian company. And they then went on the look for American writers to write the American stories, because of course, we knew our own history.

00:11:32 / #: And so, I just happened to come across this article in the New York Times. And they talked about Vivian Stephens, who they had recently hired to head up the New York office for this Harlequin imprint.

Jennifer Prokop 00:11:49 / #: This was Harlequin American Romance for everybody.

Sandra Kitt 00:11:51 / #: That became the Harlequin American Romance. Exactly. So I, being a librarian. I dug up the number for the New York office, and when I called, I got Vivian on the phone. I was totally stunned.

Sarah MacLean 00:12:04 / #: Amazing.

Sandra Kitt 00:12:06 / #: But I didn't know any better. I was so innocent and naive about publishing and people and who they were and how this worked.

00:12:13 / #: She answered the phone. I introduced myself and said, "I just read about you in the New York Times, and I see you're looking for writers." I said, "I don't really know anything about publishing, but I have written three books, and I'm thinking perhaps one of them might interest you for your new line." And she said, "Well, why don't you come on in and meet with me. We'll sit down and have a talk."

Sarah MacLean 00:12:33 / #: Perfect.

Sandra Kitt 00:12:34 / #: And I'm thinking, "All right, this is already sounding good."

Sarah MacLean 00:12:38 / #: At the time you were writing romances, obviously, were you?

Sandra Kitt 00:12:43 / #: No.

Sarah MacLean 00:12:43 / #: You were not?

Jennifer Prokop 00:12:43 / #: No, you weren't.

Sandra Kitt 00:12:44 / #: No, I was not writing romances. I was writing ... I always believed that my stories were a lot bigger in scope and complexity than the romances that I had been reading.

Sarah MacLean 00:12:55 / #: Were you reading them too?

Sandra Kitt 00:12:56 / #: Oh my goodness. I've been reading them since junior high school, but they weren't called romances in those days. They were called Gothic romances because they were all written about England. They were all historicals.

00:13:08 / #: Then you get to the Mills & Boon stories from Harlequin where the stories then began to become more contemporary. But they were still all white characters, all in Europe. There was nothing about America in them at all.

Sarah MacLean 00:13:22 / #: And you were writing something different.

Sandra Kitt 00:13:24 / #: And I was writing totally different. If you've read The Color of Love, how complex that story is. And it's two or three subplots in it, and there's also a second romance going on. So I knew that what I was writing was bigger, deeper, more complex, and longer in terms of the writing. Very, very complex, word count.

Sarah MacLean 00:13:47 / #: Which is a big piece of this at the time. These categories have a very specific word count or no [inaudible 00:13:54 / #].

Sandra Kitt 00:13:53 / #: Exactly. But I didn't know that.

Sarah MacLean 00:13:56 / #: Right, exactly.

Sandra Kitt 00:13:56 / #: I didn't know that. I simply wrote the book. And I figured that I knew that it was long, but I really hadn't paid much attention to the fact that my books were significantly, sometimes twice as long as the typical category or series romance. I just in one ear and out the other.

00:14:15 / #: So Vivian had me come into her office, and it was on Second Avenue. I remember, Second Avenue between 42nd and 41st Street. And her office was so new, she had no furniture. She didn't have a secretary. There was no receptionist. There was just Vivian. And so we went into her office and sat down, and it was an amazing conversation because I said, "This is what I'm doing. I've written these three books. I don't know anything about publishing."

00:14:45 / #: So in two hours, she met with me for two hours, and gave me a quick tutorial on what she looking for, what she wanted to see in romance, yada, yada, yada. At the end of the two hours, she said, "I understand you said that you've written three books." And I said, "Yeah." She said, "Why don't you send me two? Just pick the two of the three that you thought were really different or strong or whatever. Send them to me and let me take a look at them."

00:15:12 / #: So believe me, the next day-

Sarah MacLean 00:15:14 / #: I bet.

Sandra Kitt 00:15:16 / #: ... the manuscripts were in the mail. And she called me 10 days later to say, "I'm buying both books." And the two books that she bought was a Black romance, which was Adam and Eva. And I gave her a story where the main characters were white but had secondary Black characters. And that became the Rites of Spring. And that was the very, very first book that she published. But both books came out in 1984.

00:15:48 / #: So that's how I got started. And basically, once those two books came out, I was off to the races. I was off and running. Everything I wrote after that for many, many years always got published. But just to show you how much I didn't know about the industry, I didn't know that I could have written a proposal or done just three chapters, submit them to a publisher or an editor, and then they would decide that they want it and put me on the contract.

00:16:18 / #: I would write the whole book because I didn't know any better. I wrote the whole book. I was in those days, a pretty fast writer. I was doing them in about three months. And then, so I would show them to an editor at Harlequin and they'd say, "Oh, we want this." And they would buy it. And that would be that.

00:16:34 / #: I think I had written my 10th book before someone said to me, "You don't really have to write the whole book right away." And I'm going, "10, seriously? Were they keeping this a secret?"

00:16:48 / #: So anyway, I was off and running. I felt so fortunate. I felt that, "Wow, this is happening really, really quickly." But even as I began to work with Vivian, on Adam and Eva in particular, I began to get a sense of how certain people in the industry were looking at me as a writer, and looking at my stories.

00:17:13 / #: When she bought Adam and Eva, she told me that the guys, and they were all guys at the time up in Canada, didn't want her to buy the manuscript. And they wanted her to figure out how to reject it, turn it back to me, and get the advance back.

Sarah MacLean 00:17:31 / #: Because the characters were African Americans.

Sandra Kitt 00:17:33 / #: Because the characters were all Black. They were all African Americans, and they didn't want to deal with how their white readership, which was substantial, was going to respond. Because don't forget, at the time, Harlequin's book came out as a subscription series. You join the of subscription-

Jennifer Prokop 00:17:49 / #: You're going to get all of them.

Sandra Kitt 00:17:50 / #: ... Right. And you got four books every month, and you got whatever you got, that's what you got.

00:17:55 / #: So they were already anticipating that there'd be a lot of blow back if one month, one of the books had Black characters on the cover. And to Vivian's credit, and then I give her a lot of credit for this. She told them, "No, we're going to put this book through and we're going to see what happens."

00:18:11 / #: One of the things she said to me when I met with her was, "My goal is to change the way we perceive romances in this country." She said, "I can't do anything about the rest of the world, but I want the books to reflect the way America looks." And so she was actively looking for African American writers at the time, who would break that wall and begin to come in.

00:18:37 / #: And this is where Elsie Washington comes into the story. I did not know Elsie before meeting Vivian. Elsie and Vivian were actually very good friends. Let's face it, there weren't very many African Americans in the field at all. And they all knew each other. They all knew each other. They're very emotionally and psychologically supportive of what they had to go through in order to break into this career.

Sarah MacLean 00:19:02 / #: Maybe you could give listeners an overview of who Elsie is and why she's important.

Sandra Kitt 00:19:09 / #: So Elsie Washington at the time was a journalist. She was writing, working freelance, doing articles. She wrote quite a bit for Essence Magazine. I think that she was a regular columnist for a while. And so what Vivian did was to approach Elsie, because Elsie was a writer.

00:19:34 / #: And she said to her, "I want you to write a book because I'm looking to break in and open up this field to Black writers. We know that there are a lot of talented Black writers out there. We just have to find them." So she asked Elsie if she would write a book.

00:19:49 / #: And Vivian worked very, very closely with Elsie on the book, because as Elsie told me, maybe a year or two later after the book came out, which was called Entwined Destinies, and she wrote under the name of Rosalind Welles, that was her pseudonym. She said it was really, really, really difficult for her to write the book because she says, "I'm not a novelist." She says, "I write freelance. I write nonfiction. I write about beauty. I write about all kinds of things, but I don't write romances."

00:20:22 / #: So Vivian had to really hold her hand through the project. They talked about the story settings. Vivian explained what she wanted in a romance, what the romance should be about. Elsie came up with characters in a setting, and Vivian was like a guidance for her through the process until the book was done.

00:20:45 / #: And that book came out not as a Harlequin American Romance book. It came out under the Candlelight series, which was a Doubleday and print, but it was the first one by a Black writer that Candlelight had ever done. And subsequently, was legitimately the very first Black romance.

00:21:06 / #: So in that regard, Elsie came before me in terms of being the first in that category. I was the first with the American Romance line. As a matter of fact, I think Rites of Spring was number 13 in the whole line of books. And then again, as I said, later that year, 1984, came Adam and Eva. But once Elsie finished that book, she couldn't be persuaded to write another one. She said she found it very difficult because it wasn't her natural forte.

00:21:41 / #: She was a lovely, lovely lady, very gentle, very sweet, very smart, very kind. I liked her a lot. And down the road a few years when I learned that she had died of cancer, there was an obituary in the New York Times for her. I was stunned. I thought she, "Oh my goodness, she's so young. What do you mean she's dead?" But she was gone.

00:22:03 / #: But she did I feel, leave a place in history in the genre, even though a lot of people, most people apparently don't know who she is or know anything about her. There's not a lot written about her either. But I did have an opportunity to know her a little bit for about a two or three year period, and I'm very happy for that.

Sarah MacLean 00:22:25 / #: When Harlequin American Romance as a series, what's your understanding? Was this like Harlequin had this idea and they found Vivian, or did Vivian pitch it as a, "We need an American Romance line?" Do you have any sense of that relationship between that line being founded?

Sandra Kitt 00:22:44 / #: I have a sense that Vivian did not approach them. I think that they came to her. You have to remember that during the era, Harlequin was it.

Sarah MacLean 00:22:53 / #: That was it.

Sandra Kitt 00:22:54 / #: They were the premier and only romance line that was out there. They were doing extremely well worldwide. And there-

00:23:03 / #: ... extremely well worldwide, and their own demographics and focus groups show that American women readers read huge numbers of the Harlequin books and it was always known that it was a Canadian company. I don't think the readers really paid much attention to the fact that it was a Canadian company. They liked the genre.

Jennifer Prokop 00:23:22 / #: Sure.

Sandra Kitt 00:23:22 / #: And I think it was the powers that be in Canada decided, "Wow, these are huge numbers from the American readers. Maybe what we should do is start a whole another line."

Jennifer Prokop 00:23:36 / #: Cater to them.

Sandra Kitt 00:23:37 / #: Right, that not only caters to the American reader, but is set, the story. Otherwise, the stories had never been set in America. The earlier Harlequin books had never been. So they very smartly and very innovatively decided let's start a new line set in America, all the stories, and we'll find American writers to write the American stories. They contacted Vivian and they hired her away from Candlelight because she was so hugely, really successful in developing the Candlelight series. And a lot of people don't know this either, she was the first editor to find Sandra Brown. She was the first one to find Barbara Delinsky. Jayne Ann Krentz. All came through the Candlelight series, which Vivian was the editor of.

00:24:27 / #: So they looked at her record, looked at her numbers, and say, "Wow, we have to have her because she clearly knows what she was doing." And I'd once said to Vivian, after talking to her and learning a little bit more about her, I always thought that she had the purest, very clear sense of what a "romance" was and what it should be and what it should be about, and what women wanted to read.

00:24:53 / #: And I think that the genre has certainly changed since the 1980s, late 1970s, and to the point where I think we almost have to redefine romance because what we read today in romance is not what I had considered romance when I came into the industry, and what appeals to me as a women's fiction romance reader is not like any of the books that I really see coming out today, which is fine, change happens, change is natural, but I think that with change, you have to really revisit what it is you're writing and what is the mission statement, so to speak, of the stories. What is it you're trying to accomplish?

Sarah MacLean 00:25:38 / #: That's really fascinating. Could you talk a little more about that? Are you willing to talk a little more about that with us?

Sandra Kitt 00:25:47 / #: Yeah, sure.

Sarah MacLean 00:25:48 / #: No, because we certainly...

Jennifer Prokop 00:25:48 / #: Yeah, tell us. Yeah.

Sarah MacLean 00:25:48 / #: ... have had this conversation a lot that the genre is always evolving and where's it going now? So what are you thinking?

Sandra Kitt 00:25:55 / #: Okay, so I guess I have to kind of go back a little bit to when I began reading them in junior high school and they were Gothic novels. What appealed to me about the stories was the relationship between the he and the she. How did they actually come together, what drew them together? Now, the stories, the Gothic novels per se, always had an element of suspense about it and always damsel in distress being saved by this hunky hero who was also incredibly wealthy. And I was fascinated by that. 13, 14 years old, what do we know about love or romance?

00:26:32 / #: Then I sort of progressed from that to reading some of the Harlequin books and those, yeah, the Harlequin books, and those appealed to me because they were contemporary stories. Even though they were still set in Europe or set in Canada, they appealed to me because they were contemporary, which was something I could really relate to. Then we started publishing books by historical novels primarily by people like Johanna Lindsey and Kathleen Woodiwis, who was one of my favorites. I just loved her work. And see, there's another writer that I really liked a lot, Georgette Heyer.

Jennifer Prokop 00:27:12 / #: Sure.

Sandra Kitt 00:27:13 / #: Just amazing. And what I liked about their books were that they had a level of intelligence. They weren't just stories about he meets her, she meets him, they fall in love, they argue, they separate, they come back together, and it's the end of the book. Her stories, these stories were very well-developed characters, real sense of history, particularly Georgette Heyer, and her books had very subtle humor that just made me laugh all the time.

00:27:43 / #: And so when I started thinking about the stories that I really liked and appeal to me, they were the stories that had a very strong sense of setting. The characters were very well-drawn and consistent. You understood their motivation. And maybe I was thinking a little bit too intellectually at the time about them, but that's the kind of thing that appealed to me. And when the characters fell in love, you believed it and you believed why they were falling in love.

00:28:14 / #: For me, romance at the time, and don't forget, this was before we had introduced consummation in the stories, and there was the sex between the sheets and all of that, it was all about the emotions. It was all about...

Jennifer Prokop 00:28:32 / #: Feelings.

Sandra Kitt 00:28:33 / #: Right, the wonderful sense you got of meeting someone that you're really attracted to, but he's interesting and he's got a sense of humor or he's really smart. Whatever the case may be, I liked getting back to that primary instant when the attraction clicked and the story takes off from there. And so it's really about the emotion. It's about gaining trust, it's about overcoming doubts and taking chance and risks. So my stories have always been very emotional because that's what appealed to me.

00:29:11 / #: What I think began to happen as the envelope was pushed and writers were able to do a little bit more, then you brought in the sexuality issue, and don't forget, we went through that whole period where we were accused by critics of just writing soft mommy porn because of the sex...

Jennifer Prokop 00:29:32 / #: Still happens, right?

Sandra Kitt 00:29:32 / #: And it still happens occasionally. And of course the people who criticize it don't understand what the romance is all about anyway. Or they'd know that it's about the feelings and emotions that go into people falling in love. It's not about the act of sex, it's much more than that.

00:29:49 / #: And so I sort of began to feel this is what I'm interested in when I read a book about relationships, it's really the core of it is about the relationship. The story is something else that kind of advances the relationship between the characters and pushes it forward, but it all comes down to emotion. It all comes down to what do they feel and believe about each other in their hearts and how can they nurture it and make it something that's permanent and you have a happy ending.

00:30:21 / #: I think what's happened is once we began to allow sexuality into the stories, the envelope began to be pushed even further. And it seemed to be that became much more of a focus in the story, and there were a lot of readers who were really into that. They just wanted to get right to it and find out what they were doing in bed together. And so the emotional part of it began to take a back seat. And while I understand the fascination and appeal to the sexual part of it, because let's face it, if it's well written, you're going to get hot. And I once heard a writer say that, "If you don't get turned on writing your own love scenes, then you're not doing it right."

00:31:09 / #: So that's all good and fine and it's part of the relationship, part of human nature, part of procreation, part of all of that. But I don't think we can get away from the fundamentals, which is the relationship...

Jennifer Prokop 00:31:25 / #: Feelings.

Sandra Kitt 00:31:26 / #: What are they feeling about...

Jennifer Prokop 00:31:26 / #: Feelings.

Sandra Kitt 00:31:27 / #: ... each other. And I really kind of feel that not only have we kind of gotten away from that basis, that foundation for the stories, I don't think we spend enough time talking about what does it mean when you're asking, how do they feel about each other? When I write a love scene, a thesaurus is my favorite writing tool because I find words to describe feelings because I want to feel what she's feeling, the heroine, when a guy touches her. When he suddenly puts his hand on the back of her neck or runs his hand down her arms or turns her to face him and they're looking into each other's eyes. It doesn't always come down the sex, it comes down to that visceral...

Jennifer Prokop 00:32:14 / #: A connection.

Sarah MacLean 00:32:14 / #: Intimacy, yeah.

Sandra Kitt 00:32:15 / #: ... connection, which is hard to describe. The intimacy. Thank you. And so I do think that we need to look at romances where they are now, and heaven knows where they're going to be in five or 10 years if you keep pushing the envelope back. I wonder if at some point we begin to circle back to what they used to be and what really got the audience to begin with, what drew them in to begin with. Because the stories appealed to readers before the sex was introduced. So you don't necessarily need that, and you don't have to call it inspirational or sweet romance just because it doesn't have sex. It all comes down to emotion. So I do think we really need to revisit that and we decide what we're going to do about it.

00:33:07 / #: I only knew Vivian as an editor for about 18 months. She was only with Harlequin for about 18 months, and then she left. I'm not sure if she left or if they let her go, but she wasn't there anymore. And so I was turned over to one of the other editors in the company and continued to write for them for the next nine years. And what was interesting about them giving me such a hard time about writing stories with Black characters is that I eventually got an editor in 1993, I believe, '94, who they were doing an anthology about Thanksgiving and it was called Friends, Families, and Lovers. And they asked me to do one of the stories in which the couple was interracial. And I'm thinking, "Really?"

Sarah MacLean 00:34:02 / #: You're like, "I have a book for you. I have a book for you."

Jennifer Prokop 00:34:05 / #: "Let me tell you where I was 15 years ago," right?

Sandra Kitt 00:34:09 / #: No, I didn't even think to show them The Color of Love. I wrote another story for them called Love is Thanks Enough, and it was a Thanksgiving theme. But I was just so stunned that out of the blue 10 years later, they're now coming around to asking me to do something that's new and that's different. And the one thing I will give to Harlequin is that they were always able to come up with innovative new imprints.

Sarah MacLean 00:34:33 / #: But Sandra, in that interim period after Vivian left and until that Thanksgiving short, it sounds like you were writing books about two white people falling in love, right?

Sandra Kitt 00:34:45 / #: I was, and I got a lot of flack about that from the Black readers.

Sarah MacLean 00:34:50 / #: Was that because the publishers basically said you had to?

Sandra Kitt 00:34:55 / #: No, no, no. The publishers had nothing other than not accepting a story if I submitted it with Black characters. They really didn't tell me what I should write. I kind of figured it out.

Sarah MacLean 00:35:05 / #: But quietly told you what you should write.

Jennifer Prokop 00:35:06 / #: Like, "Really."

Sandra Kitt 00:35:08 / #: They very, very non-verbal, very, very non-verbal which was...

Jennifer Prokop 00:35:13 / #: You were like, "It's a little math. Let me put two and two together."

Sandra Kitt 00:35:15 / #: Yeah, I think I can figure this out. No, what happened was I had always considered myself somewhat of a switch-hitter as a writer, and that means I write the story as they come to me. And with The Color of Love, the story came to me as an interracial story. The next book that I wrote that came out after that was called Significant Others. This was when I was writing for Penguin Putnam, and that was a story about an African American woman who was so fair she could pass for white, but she didn't. She knew she was African American. She claimed it, this is what I am. But being the way people perceived her because of the way she looked complicated her love life. So she was always having these mixed signals and messages coming to her from men that she met, whether it was a Black man or a white man, and she wasn't looking for either. It's just she was who she was and she had to deal with it.

00:36:18 / #: So I was always mixing up the genre and trying to write things that no one else had been writing about. Then there was Between Friends in which these two girls who were childhood friends, one was Black and one was white, and they grew up together in the same community. And when the white woman had a child, the Black friend became the godmother to the white child. But then the hero was someone who had saved the heroine, who was African American, when they were teenagers when she was about to be raped, and he literally saved her life. Then he goes off and lives his life and she's living hers. When he is reintroduced to the community, then there is competition between the two girls over the guy who is white.

00:37:10 / #: My stories, I was raised in New York, which is arguably one of the most integrated cities in the universe, and this is the world I've always known. I've always been part of multi-mixed community since the time I was in elementary school, junior high school. Some of the friends that I met in junior high school are my friends today, and they are Hispanic, they're Asian, they're Jewish, one guy is Hungarian who's white.

00:37:40 / #: So this is not unusual to me. I looked at the world that I lived in New York, and that's where I began to draw on my stories because I didn't ever see anything written about the reality of the city, let alone the country which was beginning to change. The country was beginning to move towards a level of diversity that was noticeable. And all of my stories looked towards the future, and that's why I write contemporary stories rather than historical. I'm interested in the times we're living in because in writing about where we are now, I'm absolutely preparing for the future and where we're going in the future.

Sarah MacLean 00:38:24 / #: So did the Thanksgiving anthology lead you to get on the radar of, oh, what was his name who founded Arabesque?

Sandra Kitt 00:38:35 / #: Oh, Walter Zacharius.

Sarah MacLean 00:38:36 / #: Walter, thank you. Sorry.

Sandra Kitt 00:38:38 / #: Right.

Sarah MacLean 00:38:38 / #: I was like, "Zachary," and then I was like, "No, that's not right. It's Zacharius. Okay.

Sandra Kitt 00:38:41 / #: You were close. You were very close. He was a sweetheart. But Walter was one of the few people who put his money where his mouth was. He understood that the industry was changing. He understood that the genre was changing. And we've had talks about it. He'd say, "I don't understand why other publishers don't realize that there's a whole market out there that they've been ignoring just because the readers may all be Black." He said, "Give them what they want, and then you get what you want, which is that you sell more books and you make more money."

00:39:16 / #: So he started Arabesque. It was actually called Pinnacle, Arabesque under the Pinnacle imprint because he said, "I think it's time. I think that if we put a line out there where the target audience is going to be African American," he says, "I think it's going to be a success."

00:39:32 / #: And he came to me and my agent at the time and said, "I'm going to start this line. This is what we're going to call it, and I want Sandra to be my lead-off writer for the line." Because I was still at the time the only one out there who was doing these stories. I think in 1995, '96, that's when Beverly Jenkins may have come in on the scene, but she was doing historicals. And that's where she made her bones and made her imprint because there were no Black historical romances. So she just cornered the field and she was a good writer and she was a history buff, so she certainly did her homework. But that was the start of the market really beginning to open up and be accepting to Black voices.

00:40:23 / #: I liked the idea because I knew that there were other writers out there looking to get in. I was a little bit resistant to the idea of a separate imprint just for African American readers because to my thinking it smacked of segregation again. I had hoped that when the lines came out, first there was Arabesque Pinnacle, and then down the road a little ways came Kimani.

Sarah MacLean 00:40:52 / #: Kimani.

Sandra Kitt 00:40:53 / #: Because again, Walter had passed away at that point. They had sold Pinnacle Arabesque to BET, Black Entertainment Television. Then Harlequin had picked it up for a while. And I knew that when Harlequin picked it up, it's because they really saw what it was they were missing in the marketplace. And I had a feeling that what they were going to do was acquire Arabesque, work with the current contracts that came in, and then they were going to kill off Arabesque and start their own line, and that's what they did. They brought in Kimani.

00:41:32 / #: Someone once said to me though, "When you were there, they had you first. Why didn't they see after nine books what you were capable of and use you as the impetus for growing a line or integrating Black writers into what Harlequin already had?" I can't answer that question. I can't answer it because they've never really addressed it. And why should they? It's kind of controversial. But that's the way it kind of developed.

00:42:07 / #: But after the anthology from Harlequin, that's when I was approached by Penguin Putnam and Jennifer Enderlin. If you remember, Jennifer Enderlin...

Sarah MacLean 00:42:18 / #: Of course.

Sandra Kitt 00:42:18 / #: ... was a really hot shot editor and eventually became a vice president for the line. She was the one who gave me my first two-book contract, which included The Color of Love.

Sarah MacLean 00:42:32 / #: Until this, you've been selling one at a time?

Sandra Kitt 00:42:35 / #: Until then I was selling one book at a time for 10 years.

Jennifer Prokop 00:42:38 / #: Wow.

Sandra Kitt 00:42:39 / #: Even Harlequin never said, "We're going to put you on the contract for two or three books because clearly your stories are selling." That's a whole other story. Don't get me started on that. But Jennifer offered me the contract and she bought The Color of Love. She says, "I really like this story." And then the second book, she says, "I want another book for you." And that's when I came up with the idea for Significant Others about the young African American woman who was so fair she could pass for white and the complications that gave her life, particularly in the era of romance.

00:43:13 / #: But then after those books came out, I got another two-book contract from them, and that became Between Friends, the story of the two girls who had grown up together. And I think another book from that was She's the One which was about a firefighter. And then the last two books was Family Affair about an ex-con. Again, I was always trying... What if I had a hero who was an ex-con? Can I pull that off? I was always asking myself...

Sarah MacLean 00:43:46 / #: Swinging for the fences. Yeah.

Jennifer Prokop 00:43:48 / #: Yeah. Right.

Sandra Kitt 00:43:48 / #: Yeah, just go for it. I mean, the worst that can happen is that they'll turn you down and okay, I've had to face that. And then the last book I did, which was also very popular for that particular line was called Close Encounters. Again, an interracial story where the hero was again a cop and the heroine was an art teacher. And I can give away some of... I can do a reveal here because the book is really out of print right now. She ends up getting shot by the hero.

Sarah MacLean 00:44:25 / #: What?

Sandra Kitt 00:44:25 / #: He was on a sting, a drug sting with his team. I think he was a lieutenant in the police department and they had this elaborate sting set up. And her dog started getting fidgety and she decided at four o'clock in the morning to take the dog out for a walk. And the dog sensed, because dogs do, that there was something going on and he kept pulling her in the direction of what was going on. And before the undercover cops could realize that there was a pedestrian on the scene, action started popping, guns started firing, and they're after the bad guys, and she gets shot.

00:45:06 / #: And they didn't know right away who had shot her. Everybody was firing guns at everybody else. But in the subsequent investigation, it came out that the hero, Lee, had been the one to shoot her. And he felt enormous guilt. It was clearly an accident. She was in the wrong place at the wrong time. And he really emotionally responded to the fact that he was almost responsible for killing a civilian and a Black woman at that.

00:45:35 / #: And so that's how they met. He went to the hospital to see if she was okay and the development. And that's what I do with my stories. I don't make them predictable. I don't think there's much fun in making them predictable. I'm always, always trying to challenge myself.

00:45:53 / #: One of the points I was going to make that I got off of when I was talking about the Black stories versus the white stories is I always wrote the stories as they came to me and...

00:46:03 / #: I always wrote the stories as they came to me. And because I grew up in a culture that was so diverse and integrated, sometimes the stories came to me with white characters. The Rite of Spring, the very first book that was published had a white heroine and a white hero. But sometimes they came to me as Black characters. Now you're talking Adam and Eva, which not only have Black characters, it takes place on a Caribbean island, which is all Black. But I did have some Black readers accuse me of writing white stories because I knew that's how I would get published. And I was actually kind of hurt by that because that wasn't giving me enough credit for just being creative. But I did get accused of that, and I didn't even address it because I knew that wasn't true. I just kept writing the stories that came to me and trying to write the best stories that I could.

Sarah MacLean 00:46:55 / #: But as we're talking about readers, I want to talk about the other kind of readers, the readers who clearly you have met over your career, who have loved your books and seen themselves in your books. There is this very real sense about romance, that we are a rich community of readers who value the access that we have to authors and to storytellers. So I wonder if there are any stories that you have from these early days where you realize how committed and intense, sometimes intense, the romance community is and how... I mean, not to put too fine a point on it, but how awesome we are.

00:47:43 / #: Fair.

Sandra Kitt 00:47:43 / #: Well, one of the things I realized is that romance readers, women romance readers are absolutely devoted to the stories because of what it gives them, what all the stories gives them, which is a sense of what relationships can really be like, that it is possible to have a happy union and commit to it and hopefully have your happy ending. And the fact that it always, even today, outsells every other genre in publishing says volumes about relationships, the way boys and girls, men and women come together in relationships. And so when they read books about it where we make it successful, and we do, we make the story successful, they love that because it gives them hope. It gives them hope that if they don't have such a relationship now, it's absolutely possible that they could have it in the future. Or if they've had it once, it's possible to have it again if the first one doesn't work.

00:48:43 / #: So I think that what we as writers contribute to the culture of relationships and romance and love is significant. I remember back in the late '80s when I was really just getting started and people were really beginning to know my name, I once had a teacher said to me that she used to think of romances as being just trashy novels. And then she started reading them and she said, "I realized that my girls in school, these are important books for them to read because the stories were always pretty much middle class and higher, and because there was always a happy ending." She said, "This is their first introduction to what healthy men-women relationships could be like. The stories could be perceived as being a little bit of a fantasy."

00:49:42 / #: But she said, "These are pretty much on target. This is what we want. This is what we want in a relationship, a guy who's going to respect you, a guy who's going to make you laugh, who's going to talk to you, who's not going to play you. And so if they're 14, 15, 16 years old and they're reading these books, this is a pretty good start on what relationships could be like."

00:50:04 / #: And I really appreciated her telling me that. As a matter of fact, a podcast that I did last year through DePaul University, I think Sarah probably is aware of it, with Dr. Freeman Moody. And the reason why she reached out to me, I was the first person she taped for that library series. And she says, "I have been using your books in my sociology classes for years." Because she teaches it to Black students about relationships, about Black men and women and relationships. And I was so thrilled and honored. I mean, I had no idea that anyone was doing that.

00:50:46 / #: So clearly, what we do as writers really has a significant contribution to our development as human species who fall in love, break up, fall in love again. But love is always, always what it's about, is how do we connect to people and care for people? And the romantic part of it between a man and a woman, and of course today, it's between a man and a man and a woman and a woman and all kinds. I mean, the stories have really grown quite a bit in that area, but it's always about love and people just wanting to find someone to love them. So I'm very proud that I've contributed to that.

00:51:32 / #: Editors came to realize fairly quickly, and I've had several of them say this to me, "You're not really a romance writer." Again, because my stories were so much bigger, in-depth, complicated, different, very, very different. And someone at Harlequin, an editor I had at Harlequin, halfway through my nine years with them, said to me, this was interesting, she said, "Harlequin is never going to tell you this." She said, "You are one of their top 25 selling authors."

00:52:08 / #: And I didn't know that. Again, one of those things that you learned through the industry, but I just didn't know. I didn't know any better. I didn't know how you found out that kind of information, but an editor shared that with me because she said, "I love your stories." She says, "I'll tell this to you because Harlequin will never tell you, that you are one of their 20 best-selling writers." And that was, at the time, obviously things did change about that, but things like that made me... It gave me confirmation, it gave me affirmation that I really was on the right track, that I really was writing stories that had worth and that the readers loved and that were selling. I went to a conference once, I don't know if it was RWA or Kathryn Falk's Book Lovers Convention, which was a whole different species of conferences.

Sarah MacLean 00:52:59 / #: A real ride.

Sandra Kitt 00:53:02 / #: Oh, my God, talk about partying hard. And I had just done a workshop and I stepped out of the room into the corridor in the hotel. And it was very busy, women going back and forth, changing rooms for the next session. And there was this one woman who was standing off to the side, and she just kept staring at me. And she was white, very petite, she wore glasses, I remember exactly what she looks like. And she stepped up through the crowd to me, and I smiled at her. I just said, "Hi." And she says, "Are you Sandra Kitt?" And I said, "Yes, I am." And she stared at me. She said, "I didn't know you were Black." And I said, "Okay. Is that supposed to matter?" And she said, "I love your stories." And that was a revelation for me as well.

00:53:50 / #: She didn't know what I looked like, but she liked my stories and she had been reading them. What I always wanted to do and what I hoped to do was to always from the beginning, appeal to an audience of readers. I didn't care if they were Black or white, and my stories were never deliberately, specifically geared towards a target audience of Black readers or white readers. Since I wrote both kinds of stories, if they went out there into the universe and found readership, that's what I wanted. I have men readers. I just got an email two weeks ago from this guy in... Oh, my God. Oh, he lives in someplace like Iowa or Indiana.

Sarah MacLean 00:54:39 / #: An I state.

00:54:39 / #: The middle.

Sandra Kitt 00:54:40 / #: Right.

Sarah MacLean 00:54:41 / #: Oh, look, I'm in Illinois, so let's not one-line the I states, everybody. My goodness.

Sandra Kitt 00:54:48 / #: My lips are sealed, no more will be said. And he contacted me on LinkedIn because I have a LinkedIn account because I was a former librarian. And he said, "I just read your latest book and I want to tell you how much I really, really..." And he was white, by the way. He says, "I really, really enjoyed it." He says, "It was so well-done, and I believe the characters." He said, "Good job, good job. Keep it up. I'm looking for your next book."

Sarah MacLean 00:55:14 / #: "Keep it up."

Sandra Kitt 00:55:15 / #: Women don't talk about male readers who read their books. And I remember going through a period when I would have cops who read the book because someone said, "You got to read this book. It's about a white cop." So every now and then, I'd get an email or a letter from a cop who would say to me, "You got it good. You got the voice down. You got the culture." I did a lot of research on the cop culture, and I actually became very friendly with a few of them when I still lived in Brooklyn because they were very good about letting me come in and interview them whenever I was working on a new story.

00:55:50 / #: That for me, as a writer, is the best kind of testimony you can get as to whether or not your books work, when it's about people who understand the culture and come to you and say, "You did it. You got it right." Or people that I don't even know who take the time to reach out to me and say, "This is a really good book. I really enjoyed it. Thank you. I'm looking for the next one." I mean, that is gold, absolute emotional gold to me as a writer. And when I used to begin to feel a little bit insecure and wondering if my stories were still relevant, if readers were still reading them, something like that would come in to let me know, "There are readers out there who absolutely love your work." I still get letters from women who say, "I love The Color of Love. I read it six times. I still have it. My book is falling apart. What am I going to do? I need to get a new copy."

00:56:50 / #: That's why you do it. You do it for the readers who get your voice, the ones who you've managed to reach. You don't reach everybody, and I understand that, and that's okay. That's not my goal in life, is to come up to that kind of standard. But the ones who write me with such wonderful feeling and sincerity, that's what makes it all worthwhile. And that's where, for me, I've succeeded.

Sarah MacLean 00:57:21 / #: Yeah. So let's talk about some of... We're always very interested in communities of writers, and especially when you have a long-standing career like yours, surely there are people who have lifted you up along the way and who you turn to. Who are those people? And they are probably different now than they were then, but we're curious.

Sandra Kitt 00:57:45 / #: They are kind of. Don't forget that when I came into the industry, either as a young adolescent reader or eventually as a writer, I was still only reading books by white writers who were writing white characters. And as I've already said, Kathleen Woodiwiss, I absolutely loved her historicals. She didn't write that many, maybe six at the most. And then there was Georgette Heyer, whom I just adored.

00:58:12 / #: After that, I discovered Patricia Veryan. No one talks about Patricia Veryan. She was a British writer who wrote stories about different kinds of English history, whether it was Regency or some other period. She also was one who was well-versed in her own history. She eventually came to America after she began publishing, and she married an American. She lived in the Seattle area. She's been gone now for probably close to 20 years. But her books, her stories are priceless. They're probably hard to come by, but I just loved her stories because of the realism of the characters and how consistent they were.

00:58:57 / #: When I talk about how I actually began to become consistently a writer and wanting to continue to be a writer after those three books that sat on my shelf for so many years, I think of Janet Daly. I began reading Janet Daly, and I was drawn to her immediately. Her stories are fairly simple, but there's always a twist in the theme or the setting. Her stories were very, very much American story, I mean, about cowboys and the Midwest and all of that. But what I also liked about her stories is that they weren't founded on fantasy or too much of things happening in the story that, to me, was a stretch.

00:59:48 / #: These were people who were just everyday people. They could be your neighbors, people you work with, went to school with. And she was so good about developing characters that I always believed her characters, no matter what her story was. And she was really creative in the kind of story she told, and I really admired that. And of course, she was very prolific. At one point, she was Harlequin's top-selling writer.

Sarah MacLean 01:00:15 / #: Oh, yeah. Remember those 50 states? Did you read those 50 states books?

Sandra Kitt 01:00:18 / #: Exactly. Read every one.

Sarah MacLean 01:00:20 / #: I was obsessed with those.

Sandra Kitt 01:00:22 / #: Yeah, yeah, so was I. And I wanted to see if she was going to do all 50 states, and she did, which is quite an accomplishment, really, because it meant that she either had to know a little bit about or do research about what made each state unique. So to me, she was a good writer of the genre for her era. And one year, Harlequin... Not Harlequin, RWA had its national conference in Hawaii. It was the first time they'd ever gone out of the country for that. But what they were trying to do was to occasionally set the conferences in a part of a country where it made it easy for other people to get there. They didn't always have to come from California or all the way to New York, or they didn't have to come from New Mexico all the way to Chicago. And they set it in Hawaii so that people on the West Coast could come to the conference.

Sarah MacLean 01:01:13 / #: Everybody had to go, sure.

Sandra Kitt 01:01:14 / #: Everyone had to go. And also, because it was Hawaii.

Sarah MacLean 01:01:14 / #: And also, Hawaii. Right, I mean...

Sandra Kitt 01:01:14 / #: Exactly.

Sarah MacLean 01:01:18 / #: "I have to go to Hawaii for work," is a pretty [inaudible 01:01:21 / #].

Sandra Kitt 01:01:20 / #: Yeah, and then you write it off your taxes.

Sarah MacLean 01:01:21 / #: Exactly.

Sandra Kitt 01:01:24 / #: So I was at the conference and I was headed back to my room, and there was a woman waiting at the elevator. And as I approached the elevator, the doors opened and she walked in and I walked in. And I realized it was Janet. And while I had her in the elevator, I debated with myself for a few seconds, "Should I interrupt her? Should I introduce myself?" And I finally did. I said, "I just want to let you know how much I love your stories, and I wanted to let you know that I began writing and publishing because of your stories." And she just sort of... I don't know even know if she even said anything beyond, "Thank you." But she just stared at me as if she couldn't realize that someone was actually saying that to them. I don't want to read into it too much more than that.

Sarah MacLean 01:02:11 / #: Well, you know this very well, but the answer is, if you are ever in an elevator with an author and you want to say, "I love your work," you definitely should say that because we like that a lot.

01:02:15 / #: You should do it. Go for it.

Sandra Kitt 01:02:22 / #: Absolutely. So I was always happy that I got a chance to tell her that, particularly when I also felt that she passed away way too young. I was always happy that I was able to tell her what an inspiration her books and her writing was to me, and what allowed me to keep going in my voice and not try to write to trends or ideas or other authors, or even to readers. Just write your own story. Today, when I try to think about writers that I particularly like or who influenced me, of course, Jayne Ann Krentz comes to mind because she's just so amazing.

Sarah MacLean 01:03:01 / #: She's terrific, yeah.

01:03:01 / #: Incredible.

Sandra Kitt 01:03:02 / #: She really is. I like Jayne Ann. She and I go back a long way because she also was a librarian, and she likes to tell people that. "Sandy and I know each other because we were both librarians." So she was an influence on me.

01:03:17 / #: There was another writer... Oh, her name was... She doesn't write anymore, and she didn't really write that many books. Her name was Anita Richmond Bunkley, African-American. And it was interesting, when she came into the industry long after I had been writing, her first three books immediately went to hard cover, and she was writing about unusual African-American history in the country. I think her first book, which she self-published, was called The Yellow Rose of Texas. And it was all about this Black family in Texas who discovered, I think it was oil on their property, which was very kind of unusual. But then it's what happens with the family and with other people trying to get the land away from them. And I remember reading this and thinking, "This is so well-done." And I was very pleased about seeing this new kind of story out there, Anita Richmond Bunkley. Then she wrote a couple of other books and kind of faded out from sight.

01:04:21 / #: And Sarah made note of the fact that a lot of writers who started out back in the day, many of them eventually stopped writing, for whatever reason. Maybe they had no more stories, maybe there were one book wonders, maybe life took a turn for them, or maybe they lost interest. Who knows? But there were many who really did very well for a short period of time, and then the candle burned out. I started out in the Arabesque line with a writer, and it's interesting, she had a pseudonym. Her pseudonym was Eboni Snoe, African-American.

Sarah MacLean 01:04:56 / #: Oh, yeah, sure. I've seen that name.

01:04:57 / #: I know that name, yeah.

Sandra Kitt 01:05:00 / #: It's terrible, but I can't remember her real name. I just remember that she had such a strong pseudonym.

Sarah MacLean 01:05:07 / #: Yes, it was perfect.

Sandra Kitt 01:05:10 / #: Right, it was perfect. And she had... Her signature piece was, whenever she appeared in public, she would dress very elaborately in long period dresses and big, big, big southern hats with plumes of feathers. She was a very, very pretty lady, and she was petite, so she could carry it off. So I'd do a signing with her, and there I am in my little mini skirt and little top and my jewelry, and there is Ebony in this huge hat and this lovely long close-fitting dress all the way to the floor. And I'm thinking, "They're not even going to look at me." But it was fun because again, she was a lovely lady, just very, very charming. I liked her very, very much and loved doing programs with her. We were actually good foils for each other because our stories were so different, and we did get a lot of attention when we did the programs. Donna Hill.

Sarah MacLean 01:06:11 / #: Oh, sure.

Sandra Kitt 01:06:13 / #: Donna Hill and I go back a long, long way, and actually, Donna began writing what they called... You know the romance magazines that used to come out?

Sarah MacLean 01:06:24 / #: With the photographs? Like the... Yeah.

Sandra Kitt 01:06:27 / #: Yeah. Well, she started writing for that in the late '70s, early '80s, but they... I don't know if I could consider them romances. It was a magazine.

Sarah MacLean 01:06:37 / #: Yeah, they were like fiction serial... They were fiction magazines. You would get them, and they were the size of an old Life magazine.

Sandra Kitt 01:06:44 / #: Exactly, exactly.

Sarah MacLean 01:06:46 / #: And they had photographs. They had clearly staged these elaborate photoshoots. I'm going to confess, Joanna Shupe, who is a wonderful writer, gave me one for Christmas last year that's like a very kind of Falcon Crest-y, this scandalous family on a vineyard, and it's magnificent. Anyway, so she wrote... Donna Hill wrote for those first.

Sandra Kitt 01:07:10 / #: She wrote for those first and then-

Sarah MacLean 01:07:12 / #: We have to get her on too.

Sandra Kitt 01:07:13 / #: Oh, she's fun. She's lovely. And as a matter of fact, I had reached out to her and she was kind enough to recognize me at a program recently, and she says, "Well, one of the people who was really there for me when I was trying to break into publishing," she said, "was Sandra Kitt. She would really take the time to talk to me." I did the same thing for Gwen Foster, who is now... I actually mentored her, and she passed away about six or seven, eight years ago. I've mentored Marcia King-Gamble, who is a multi-published writer who lives in Florida in Fort Lauderdale. So I'm proud of that also, of having mentored a lot of people.

01:07:56 / #: I remember when Brenda Jackson used to send me fan mail, and we would see each other, and she would always say how much she enjoyed my writing. And of course, she's gone on to be a stratospheric superstar. But it's nice to know that I've had that connection to so many other writers. Donna is definitely someone that you should talk to, and she's a lovely person. I think you can learn a lot and get a lot of history from her perspective. There's one who's... And I'm sorry for this, that I used to know. She was a Black writer, and she wrote for, I think it was a silhouette book that she did, but it was suspense and mystery.

01:08:39 / #: And she actually got nominated for an Edgar Award for the Best First Mystery, and she happened to have been the first Black writer who had been nominated for that. She didn't get it, but the fact that she was nominated was a huge coup for all of us, all of us writers. I really apologize for not remembering. Her last name was West...

01:09:00 / #: [inaudible 01:09:00 / #] not remembering her last name was West. Oh my God, it's on the tip of my tongue. And then in terms of just going back to Harlequin for a moment, they also had another black writer who came about in the mid- to the late-1980s. She was African-American, she was from Maryland or Virginia. She wrote under a pseudonym, and she wrote mysteries and suspense, and I think she wrote about four or five books for Harlequin. Once again, after that, she just disappeared. Don't know what happened to her, but she was African-American, and no one knows who she is because we were all under the radar to some extent. I think I was the only one for quite a long time where everybody in the industry knew who I was because I was the first. Everything that was happening at that time, I would be the first person at the table, the first person there. I was being interviewed extensively by television and radio and magazines, Glamour magazine, Essence. So I was out there. I had a most definite... I had a profile.

Sarah MacLean 01:10:13 / #: At the time, did it feel like you were leaving such a mark? Because it feels like, I mean, when Brenda Jackson and Donna Hill and others are all saying, "Oh, well, Sandra Kitt was my inspiration." I mean, clearly there is a Sandra Kitt mark.

Sandra Kitt 01:10:27 / #: And I didn't know that. I wasn't aware of that for many, many years because it wasn't something that I was consciously set out to do, leave my mark on history. I was just trying to maintain a career in writing and made sure that I was visible and that my books were being received and published and read. And so it was really a number of years later that people began to refer to me as a pioneer and the first and all of that. I've gotten several awards from Romantic Times for being a pioneer. And then it began to hit me when I thought about my history going all the way back to Vivian, that I said, "Oh yeah, you were the first to do this, and you were the first to do that."

01:11:19 / #: And then it began to click that I had a substantial footprint that had taken place in the genre. And I began to be... I was very proud of that once it really clicked in my head that I had that kind of a history. I was pleased about that for sure, and certainly pleased when someone like Donna or Gwen, they're doing a program and they said, "I just want to acknowledge Sandra Kitt because when I was first trying to get published, she mentored me and spent a lot of time with me talking about whatever." And it was unexpected, so it was wonderful. It really made me feel very, very good to know that maybe I had an impact.

Jennifer Prokop 01:12:03 / #: When you think about all the books you've written, what's the one that's your favorite or that you hope will outlive you?

Sandra Kitt 01:12:15 / #: Well, for sure Color of Love, because it was the first book I've ever written, and I wrote it from such a pure place. I didn't know anything about writing. I didn't know anything about publishing. I simply had a story, and I was very pleased and proud that when I finished that book at over 100,000 words, it was the story I intended to write. It had the trajectory for the characters, the ups and the downs, and the ending that I wanted, and I was just enormously pleased that I had been able to do that. Certainly the rest of my career I was very proud of just because of what I accomplished and just from being able to stay in the game for as long as I've been able to. But that one is definitely going to be the one that I'm going to take to my grave as the one that I remember.

01:13:09 / #: The other one that I'm very proud of was Adam and Eva because it was the first black romance that came out. And despite Harlequin's hesitancy about bringing the book out, and it did come out, it did very well for them. And then it went on to be published in Italy, they did a translation in Italy. So all of that's important. And at one point I was told, well, they now consider that one of Harlequin's early classics, Adam and Eva, because it was the first black romance that they had published by a black writer. So they did recognize that, and I was very pleased about that.

01:13:51 / #: Many, many, many years later, I went on to do a spinoff of the story. There was a little girl in Adam and Eva, and I had her grow up. And so I wrote a book, I think it was 2008, 2009, called Promises in Paradise, which was about little girl who became a doctor. She's an adult now, but it revisits Adam and Eva, who did have their happy ending. So I'm very proud of that story.

01:14:22 / #: More recently, I'm very proud of the book that came out this past April. I started writing for Sourcebooks, and I have a three book contract with them. First book came out in April, second book will come out next year. I'm starting to write the third one now. But the reason why I'm so proud of it is because I did such a good job with the hero and heroine. Whenever I have a chance to sit down and read the story again, I'm equally as surprised. I'm thinking, "Oh, this works. They really are consistent, and they're so cute together, and the hero has this great sense of humor."

01:15:06 / #: And so I was very happy about that because I had a very long hiatus from writing from about 2010 until 2018 when I got this new contract. And of course the first book didn't come out until 2021, just this past April. And so the fact that I was able to sort of get back in the saddle again, almost cold, and write this book and be very happy with it, and the story and the characters, was really very gratifying personally to me. So at this point, that's one of my favorites because it was like I reinvented myself or something.

Sarah MacLean 01:15:44 / #: Sandra, this is fabulous.

Jennifer Prokop 01:15:46 / #: Thank you so much.

Sarah MacLean 01:15:48 / #: I mean, what a joy of a conversation. Thank you so much. I'm so happy we get to bring it to all of our listeners.

Sandra Kitt 01:15:56 / #: Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it. I'm sure I didn't answer all your questions, and believe me, there's a lot of stuff in the... It was a long history, so there are a lot of things, but this was great.

Sarah MacLean 01:16:06 / #: Well, you're always welcome to come back. If you think, "I need to tell them that story," come on again.

Sandra Kitt 01:16:12 / #: Yeah-

Jennifer Prokop 01:16:13 / #: Exactly.

Sandra Kitt 01:16:14 / #: ... I would love to. I would love to.

Sarah MacLean 01:16:15 / #: Let us know, and-

Sandra Kitt 01:16:15 / #: I'll start reviewing it because I know there's a lot of interesting things that happened during my career. I never told you about Fabio.

Sarah MacLean 01:16:22 / #: Oh wait, no, we're still recording. Tell us about Fabio.

Jennifer Prokop 01:16:25 / #: Tell us about Fabio.

Sandra Kitt 01:16:30 / #: Well, he was delightful. He was handsome as anything. Very, very popular as a male cover model for historical novels. However, when I was writing for Harlequin, I did a book called The Way Home, and it came to me that his face, his persona, would be perfect as the cover model for the book. And this was another one of my novels where all the main characters were white. And I said, "But he has long hair" and-

Sarah MacLean 01:17:01 / #: Her face.

Sandra Kitt 01:17:01 / #: Right, and very solemn kind of, and I said, "I'm going to do this."

Sarah MacLean 01:17:07 / #: Oh my gosh, I'm looking at the cover right now.

Sandra Kitt 01:17:11 / #: But it's him. It's him. I don't know if you can tell.

Sarah MacLean 01:17:14 / #: I can, and it's amazing.

Sandra Kitt 01:17:19 / #: I loved it. I turned it into... When I turned in the book, I had his picture and I turned it in to Harlequin to the production company, and I said, "This is my hero. This is the model you're going to follow, but you're going to make him contemporary." So I said, "You're going to need to give him a contemporary haircut. Don't make the hair too short. I want it to kind of brush the collar of his shirt," and I said, "It's still his beautiful face," And I said, "He's going to have on dark glasses because he has a sensitivity to light because of an accident that happened to him."

Jennifer Prokop 01:17:54 / #: Was it a bird on a rollercoaster?

Sandra Kitt 01:17:58 / #: No.

Jennifer Prokop 01:17:59 / #: Sorry, couldn't help it.

Sarah MacLean 01:18:01 / #: So rude. She's so rude.

Jennifer Prokop 01:18:04 / #: I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

Sandra Kitt 01:18:05 / #: I'm with it. I'm with it.

Jennifer Prokop 01:18:05 / #: I'm a lot of fun at a party.

Sandra Kitt 01:18:08 / #: And it came out, I was very happy, because I said, "Oh my God, it really is him, except he's got short hair." And so I was at another conference. This time it was a Romantic Times conference, and I don't know why I keep running into people in the elevator.

Sarah MacLean 01:18:24 / #: The elevator's where to be in all of these.

Jennifer Prokop 01:18:26 / #: Yeah.

Sandra Kitt 01:18:26 / #: Well, people are coming and going. Of course you stand outside one long enough, you're going to run into six people that you want to say hello to. And I was with Katherine, Katherine Falk, who has been amazing in my career. From the very beginning, she was on my side, incredibly supportive, included me in everything that Romantic Times was doing, so I give her really big thumbs up.

01:18:51 / #: But I was with her because we were going up to one of the suites where there was a party going to take place. And she says, and this guy was walking ahead of us surrounded by women, and she grabbed his arm and pulled him back. She says, "Fabio, you have to come with us. We're going to this really cool party." And I looked at him and I said, "You're on the cover of my next book." I said, "It's not historical, but I want you to know it's your face, because I made sure that they did it in the production." And he looked at me and he said, "Well, thank you." He didn't speak a lot of English at the time, but I had my little encounter with Fabio. He was perfectly charming, very nice guy. And he did come up to the party.

Sarah MacLean 01:19:35 / #: Listen, living the dream, a romance novelist who got Fabio on her cover, so...

Sandra Kitt 01:19:39 / #: I got Fabio on a cover, yes.

Jennifer Prokop 01:19:41 / #: Amazing. What a perfect way to end this conversation, honestly.

Sarah MacLean 01:19:46 / #: The best. Well, thank you so much, Sandra. We are-

Sandra Kitt 01:19:53 / #: Thank you.

Sarah MacLean 01:19:53 / #: I mean, this was the best.

01:19:59 / #: Listen. She's so cool.

Jennifer Prokop 01:20:01 / #: She's super cool. I know.

Sarah MacLean 01:20:03 / #: And also super stylish. You guys couldn't see the video, but at one point I was like, "I want to grow up and be Sandra Kitt," basically.

Jennifer Prokop 01:20:14 / #: Yeah, I felt a little bad because I really did come to the table dressed for Deadlands, so...

Sarah MacLean 01:20:20 / #: But it's fine. It's fine.

Jennifer Prokop 01:20:22 / #: It's not about us.

Sarah MacLean 01:20:24 / #: Listen.

Jennifer Prokop 01:20:25 / #: So before we start, actually-

Sarah MacLean 01:20:27 / #: Oh, okay.

Jennifer Prokop 01:20:27 / #: ... here's what I want you to tell us, because you invited Sandra Kitt to speak at the 2019 RWAs.

Sarah MacLean 01:20:35 / #: Yeah.

Jennifer Prokop 01:20:35 / #: So was that something like... You really, I feel like, put her on my radar, and maybe that's true for a lot of people. So-

Sarah MacLean 01:20:42 / #: I think-

Jennifer Prokop 01:20:43 / #: How did that come to be?

Sarah MacLean 01:20:44 / #: Yeah, gosh, that's a bummer. It's a real bummer that helped to put her on the radar for people, because I feel like I knew about Sandra Kitt for a long time, and I don't if it's because... I don't know why. I know if it's because I was reading Harlequin Americans back in the day and she was writing them, and it wasn't... Those were old, those books, those first books, but I sort of always knew she existed, and I always knew she was an African-American writer who was writing for Harlequins. I didn't know she was first.

Jennifer Prokop 01:21:22 / #: Okay.

Sarah MacLean 01:21:22 / #: That helped... We should probably name the people who were part of that group when Adriana Herrera and Alexis Daria and Tracy Livesey and LaQuette and Joanna Shupe and Sierra Simone and-

Jennifer Prokop 01:21:37 / #: Nisha.

Sarah MacLean 01:21:39 / #: ... Andie Christopher... Sorry?

Jennifer Prokop 01:21:41 / #: Nisha.

Sarah MacLean 01:21:42 / #: Oh, sorry. No, Eric can maybe stitch this in. And Andie Christopher and Nisha Sharma and I all got together to work on that RITA ceremony, which at the time was so important because we really wanted to talk about who built the house, which is what I've been saying this whole season. I went to Steve Amidon and I... Because I didn't know a ton about categories at the time, and so we put together this list and Sandra was so obviously the first. I mean, there was Elsie Washington, who unfortunately we lost, and Sandra, I didn't know-

Jennifer Prokop 01:22:28 / #: That was the first time I'd heard that story, right.

Sarah MacLean 01:22:28 / #: ... that she just wrote that first book and then just didn't want to do it anymore, although God knows I don't blame her. This is really very different than journalism. But I felt like... And then somebody said she's in New York, and it was just... I took her to lunch. I called her up and I said, "Can I take you to lunch?" And she came. And we went to lunch on the Upper West Side at this place... I can't even remember what it was called, but it was like we were in a corner. It was very New York. It was like a corner padded booth, and it had a white tablecloth and it felt very... We were having a business meeting. And she told me a few stories like the ones that she told today, and it just... What a glorious person she is, full of memories of people. She was the one who pointed me in the direction of Eva Rutland, who actually she didn't talk about today, but Eva Rutland was a black writer of Harlequin Historicals.

Jennifer Prokop 01:23:43 / #: Oh, interesting.

Sarah MacLean 01:23:44 / #: Or no, she wrote Regencies for Harlequin Historical. And I mean, they were Regencies with white characters. No one knew that Eva Rutland was a black woman who was also in her almost 80s and legally blind.

Jennifer Prokop 01:24:00 / #: Wow.

Sarah MacLean 01:24:02 / #: Yeah, and was writing these Regencies that people really loved. And so this made me think about... There are so many people. There are so many names.

Jennifer Prokop 01:24:16 / #: Yes, so many names.

Sarah MacLean 01:24:18 / #: And so whenever we talk to somebody like Sandra and others who are on our list... I'm so excited about some of these people. And when they say, " Oh, you should know about this person who very few people have talked about..." And she's so great, and I was so glad that she got to talk about Elsie Washington.

Jennifer Prokop 01:24:44 / #: Yeah, me too. And also about Vivian Stevens, because even though we've heard bits and pieces from people, I feel like it just adds that little bit of information every single time-

Sarah MacLean 01:24:58 / #: Yeah, and-

Jennifer Prokop 01:24:59 / #: ... about who she was and what she was trying to do.

Sarah MacLean 01:25:02 / #: Yeah, I mean, maybe at some point in the future, we really should put together-

Jennifer Prokop 01:25:06 / #: Like a supercut.

Sarah MacLean 01:25:06 / #: ... an episode that's just about Vivian Stephens, because I feel like we... I mean, you should all go. If you haven't gone and listened to the Vivian Stephens interview at the Black Romance Podcast, you absolutely should. We'll put links in show notes. But you start to see a very real picture of this wonderful editor come into play.

01:25:31 / #: You know, one of the things that has come up over a few interviews, and I think we've never kind of hit it hard on the outros, is the power of Romantic Times.

Jennifer Prokop 01:25:45 / #: Yes, and Katherine Falk.

Sarah MacLean 01:25:46 / #: And people probably don't even really know... I will say this. I think maybe when we recorded our Vivian Stevens episode with Steve Amidon, we mentioned Katherine Falk, but this woman was a powerhouse, but she was independent of publishing. She had this magazine, right?

01:26:09 / #: As far as I know, she was a fan. She just loves romance just like us. And she started a magazine called Romantic Times that then became RT Book Reviews. And when I first started, I mean, if you didn't get a good review in RT, you were toast.

Jennifer Prokop 01:26:28 / #: Yeah.

Sarah MacLean 01:26:30 / #: Because book buyers all across the country would use RT. And so they were the tastemakers. And I remember I started, and my dream was to be on the cover of RT because it was a real glossy magazine, and it would be like you'd get it and it would have Cathy Maxwell on the cover, or... And so it was like superstar time. And Katherine was... I've met her a couple of times. By the time I met her, she was an older woman. She, to my knowledge, is still alive, and she just loved this.

01:27:11 / #: And she had this annual conference, RT, that was the antithesis of RWA. RWA was a bunch of authors, very professional, going to be professional with each other, and RT was like, wear crazy hats, meet your fun fans, spend time with readers, go to parties, learn to make fascinators with Miranda Neville. It was a really different kind of thing. Fabio was always there in the early days. Apparently they had cover model contests. It was a scene. But Katherine Falk, she keeps coming up as a really supportive voice who lifted up authors who might not have gotten a publisher lift.

Jennifer Prokop 01:27:57 / #: Yeah. So interesting.

Sarah MacLean 01:28:02 / #: And I think... I don't know. I'm going to try and find her email address, I guess.

Jennifer Prokop 01:28:07 / #: Yeah, I think she's on our list.

Sarah MacLean 01:28:11 / #: Yeah, now she is. Yeah. Well, I think she's always been on our list, right?

Jennifer Prokop 01:28:14 / #: She's always been on our list. Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah MacLean 01:28:19 / #: But gosh, and Sandra Kitt just dropping Isaac Asimov's name. Oh, he's staying up with Asimov and his wife.

Jennifer Prokop 01:28:27 / #: Neil Grasse de Tyson.

Sarah MacLean 01:28:29 / #: Listen-

Jennifer Prokop 01:28:30 / #: Neil-

Sarah MacLean 01:28:31 / #: These women, they all have great stories.

Jennifer Prokop 01:28:34 / #: Neil Tyson deGrasse. I can say words, everybody. I'm a little tired today.

Sarah MacLean 01:28:37 / #: Neil deGrasse Tyson. That's right.

Jennifer Prokop 01:28:39 / #: I said it wrong the first time.

Sarah MacLean 01:28:41 / #: You did it.

Jennifer Prokop 01:28:43 / #: Yeah, well, and you know what else I really loved is I... It's funny because today we talked a lot about the librarian connection... Or no, sorry, the lawyer connection.

Sarah MacLean 01:28:55 / #: Yes.

Jennifer Prokop 01:28:55 / #: But back then it was like all these really cool authors were librarians.

Sarah MacLean 01:28:59 / #: Everyone was a librarian.

Jennifer Prokop 01:29:00 / #: So cool. Yeah.

Sarah MacLean 01:29:02 / #: Listen, I'm for it.

Jennifer Prokop 01:29:04 / #: I am too. I am too. It's amazing.

Sarah MacLean 01:29:07 / #: So all of this is to say Sandra Kitt was as cool visually as she is orally, and Jen is going to come to New York, and we're all going to go out together.

Jennifer Prokop 01:29:17 / #: Yeah, it's going to happen. We'll take pictures and you'll all be jealous because it was amazing. And I just think-

Sarah MacLean 01:29:24 / #: She's really fun.

Jennifer Prokop 01:29:25 / #: Again, Sarah and I get off these calls and just look at each other like, "Oh my God, that was amazing," and we hope that you had the same experience.

Sarah MacLean 01:29:35 / #: This is Fated Mates. You can find at FatedMates.net. You can find us on Twitter at Fated Mates. You can find us on Instagram at FatedMatesPod, or you can find Jen and I just sort of wherever books are being talked about, generally. We hope you're reading something fabulous this week. We hope you enjoyed this episode, and if you just came to us for this particular Trailblazer episode, please don't miss all the others, which are equally as awesome. Every one of these interviews, every one of these conversations is magnificent. And otherwise, we will see you next week with something.

Jennifer Prokop 01:30:14 / #: Who knows?

Sarah MacLean 01:30:15 / #: We've got something up our sleeve; check show notes. And otherwise, have a great week.

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S04.14: Elda Minger: Trailblazer

The Trailblazer series continues this week with Elda Minger—author of contemporary and historical romances, including Untamed Heart, which is the first contemporary romance to feature condom use on the page.  

Elda talks about writing for Vivian Stephens, about writing about women’s bodies, about reproductive choice and about the way romance made space for women during the 70s and 80s. She shares a collection of gorgeous stories about her life as a reader and writer (and a particularly wonderful detour as a bookseller). About the boom of category and contemporary romance in the 1980s, and about the way writing made her who she is. 

We are thrilled to have found Elda, and that she took time to speak with us and share her wonderful perspective on the genre with us. We can’t think of a better week to share this episode with you.

Transcript available.

There’s still time to buy the Fated Mates Best of 2021 Book Pack from our friends at Old Town Books in Alexandria, VA, and get eight of the books on the list, a Fated Mates sticker and other swag! Order the book box as soon as you can to avoid supply chain snafus.

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Next week, we’re reading Nalini Singh’s Caressed by Ice, number three (and Jen’s favorite) of the Psy-Changeling series. Get it at Amazon, Apple, Kobo, B&N or at your local indie.

Show Notes

TRANSCRIPT

Thinking about those early days, it actually brought me such a sense of joy, and I was so grateful that I lived through it. And I was so grateful that I got to have this career. I still had this career where most of the people I know, my contemporaries, they hate their jobs, they're now retiring. They're kind of not knowing what to do. They're having bad retirements because they were like, all structured, going to job, coming home, you know, and I've been so darn lucky, because I literally would get up, make a cup of coffee, walk to my desk, start creating with all these people. And with all my animals, you know, my family, just, just home. I'm a real homebody too. And I just loved it. And then all I ever wanted and it's funny because people always say, “Do you think you're a big success?” All I ever wanted was to give to readers, what writers gave to me. That was it, and I got that.

Jennifer Prokop 0:58 / #
That was the voice of Elda Minger.

Sarah MacLean 1:01 / #
Author of Untamed Heart, which is known in romance history as the first contemporary romance to feature condom use on the page.

Jennifer Prokop 1:10 / #
Elda was edited by Vivian Stephens. She tells the story of working with Vivian and also Carolyn Nichols, another storied romance editor, and amazing, amazing perspective on Woodiwiss, on the early days of romance and what it was like to be a part of a company of women, for which she is still really proud to be part of.

Sarah MacLean 1:38 / #
This one is pretty perfect. Welcome to Fated Mates, everyone. I'm Sarah MacLean. I read romances, and I write them.

Jennifer Prokop 1:46 / #
And I'm Jennifer Prokop, a romance reader and editor. Off we go.

Elda Minger 1:55 / #
I grew up in a house of readers, all teachers, my mom, my dad, my grandmother. I knew how to read before I went to school. Books were always the most coveted, like Christmas was like ripping open, and it wasn't socks, it wasn't underwear, it wasn't toys. It was books. And I mean, I remember, I remember, my mother's family was so funny. They were like, "You let your kids read comic books?" My dad was like, "I don't care what they're reading so long as they're reading, you know?"

Jennifer Prokop 2:22 / #
Yes.

Elda Minger 2:23 / #
And we just read and read and talked books, and my great aunt and great uncle, they had a limited income. So they'd search all year for used books, that was our interest and tie them with twine. And I remember I had a girlfriend who said, "What a horrible gift. Those books kind of smell, and they didn't even wrap them with paper." And I remember thinking, "You just don't get it. You just don't get it, and that's cool."

Jennifer Prokop 2:46 / #
That's amazing.

Elda Minger 2:47 / #
But I always, you know, we had tons of books in the house. I remember when we lived in Illinois, a plumber came and he looked around, he goes, "You read all these books?" to my dad. And my dad said, "Nah, they're just really good insulation." You know against the snow, but I mean, you know, I just always loved the written word. I always loved books. And I never thought about being an author because my dad wrote three books, and my uncle wrote a biography of Mozart, and my mother published some poetry, but I always saw my dad when he would get like rejection letters, and he'd get so depressed, and he'd have a couple of drinks like, ah shit, this is awful, you know? And I just thought, "I never want to be that person." And so the biggest laugh in my family was when I started writing books, because it was, you know, a lot of us became teachers and I did do a lot of teaching of writing, but I never really thought about becoming a writer and then romance, the way it came to me, because I read Harlequins in high school, and I remember going to Reeves drugstore on Main Street in Antioch, town of 1200 people, right on the Wisconsin border, Illinois to Wisconsin.

Jennifer Prokop 3:53 / #
I'm in Chicago. I know where that is.

Elda Minger 3:55 / #
Okay, it's Chain O' Lakes, that big resort, you know. So there was a big metal spinner, and there was this book there, and I looked at it, it was something in Italy, and I thought that looks good, and I took it home, and I read it, I think I was like 12. And I was just like mesmerized. And of course, it was all like, "his taut thighs and his glowering" and you know, and I didn't know what half of what was going on, but it was a great story. And I went back and I said to the lady, I said, "Are there more of these?" And she said, "Well, there's four every month." And I said, "Oh boy!" And she goes, "I can save them for you." And she said, "I'll put them in a brown paper bag." And I was like, "Why?" And she goes, "Well, I'll put them in a brown paper bag."

Sarah MacLean 4:32 / #
(laughing) You'll understand when you get older!

Elda Minger 4:36 / #
Right away, and it was like, okay, somehow I'm not supposed to be reading these or something, you know, something's a little forbidden. So I kept them hidden in my closet, but I read Harlequins all through high school, and it was, I loved them! And you know, like Violet Winspear and Anne Mather. All the older names.

Jennifer Prokop 4:54 / #
Carole Mortimer was my favorite of those Presents authors.

Elda Minger 4:56 / #
Oh yeah. Oh God, she was great! And, and it was so funny because I remember I had a big box in my closet, I kept them hidden, and it was one of the reasons when I was in college I, when my dad said, he taught at Loyola University, so he said, "Hey, it'd be cheaper for you to go to Rome for a year than for me to pay for your college," because kids, you know, the professor's kids get free. And I said, "Italy, sign me up!" You know, I want to go to England. I want to go to all the places I'd read about in Harlequins. So it was part of my international travel. And so then, you know, my dad was really, there was my older sister, me and my little brother. My dad was great. As far as equality for women, like we sat around the dinner table, and it was like the rose and the thorn, best thing today, worst thing today, I always felt like I could speak up and have opinions and talk to people. And I'd go to friends houses, and this was the Midwest in the '70s, and I remember going to a dinner where the wife and the two girls did not talk at all.

Jennifer Prokop 5:53 / #
Wow.

Elda Minger 4:58 / #
And the father and the brothers talked and it took me a second to realize I wasn't supposed to talk. And then we all got up and cleared the table, and they sat and talked and the father lit a cigarette, and I was like, this was like being on Mars, because my dad would be like, "Okay, what'd you kids learn today? Anything funny? What's going on? You know, tell me what your friends are up to." So I always felt I could always speak up and not be a loud mouth, but just be articulate and have opinions. So I went away to school, I went to Kenyon College, got a degree in English Lit, and it had only been open to women for about five years, six years. And all this does tie into the condom scene, it really does. And I remember a professor who was a real bastard. And he said, "Women cannot write novels. Women cannot write novels." And this one woman in the front she was like, "Anne Bradstreet." And he said, "Poetry and a kind of an anomaly." And somebody else said, "Emily Brontë." And he literally said, "She was insane." This woman was insane. Wuthering Heights. And I'm sitting in the back row thinking, "What's wrong with this guy?" And I got really mad, and I screamed out, "Jane Austen!" And there's this dead silence, and you could see cognitive dissonance, like his face got real red, and he was, because how can you say, "This is a crappy writer," when the Prince Regent said, "The most perfect novel in the English language." Right? And so he's, "Ah, ah, ah." And he just couldn't, and it was great because it was just people were like, "Good for you." Just, "Jane Austen!" You know, so I took my English degree, and there was like women's studies classes back then. And there were women authors, like we were a separate category. We were not writers, we were women writers. And so it was really weird because I never read romance. You know in like '72, The Flame and the Flower came out. I was in college. So I knew nothing of historicals. I knew Harlequins, I knew category, I didn't know historicals.

Jennifer Prokop 7:53 / #
So did you read The Flame in the Flower? Was that?

Elda Minger 7:56 / #
Well, not in college. I mean I was so busy reading like all the male authors and all their point of view and everything, and not that they're bad, but it was like, let's have a little of everybody, you know. And so I read them in Italy. I found the Mills and Boons, that little British bookstore that was there. I came home, now I'd finished school and the worst part, worst part of my life, my dad died three months before I finished college.

Sarah MacLean 8:18 / #
Ohhh.

Elda Minger 8:18 / #
So I was reeling, and I barely, I mean, my professor was great because we had to do orals, we had to, like stand up and really say we knew our stuff. And I remember standing there thinking, "I'm gonna flunk! I, my brain is like, I'm screwed." And he looked at me and said, "Miss Minger." And I said, "Yes." And he said, "Shakespeare." And I thought, "Thank you, God, because I know Shakespeare." I mean he knew that I loved and knew, so I managed to pass. So my sister and I both got a job at Kroch's and Brentano's in Libertyville, outside Chicago.

Sarah MacLean 8:47 / #
What is that?

Elda Minger 8:47 / #
It was a bookstore chain, a really nice bookstore chain, almost like, like Barnes and Noble, like gifts and things, but mostly books. And it was right outside Chicago, and Chicago, their readers, Phil Donahue, always advertised books. It was before Oprah, but I mean, talk shows would do books and you'd fix the table up front with that book, and all the women, the women were the great readers, they'd come in and buy the book. So I remember about three weeks after I got there to work there, our manager, Karen, who was just great, best boss I ever had. She said, "We are having a phenomenon. We need to talk after work. 15 minutes. You need to be prepared." So we go in back and there are all these crates marked "Shanna." (laughter) She said, "We are going to be selling this book. It's going to be very different." Than of course this was the killer. She goes, "Elda, you're the best cashier, you're going on the front register. You will be there all day. You will signal if you need a bathroom break."

Sarah MacLean 8:48 / #
Wowwww!

Elda Minger 9:41 / #
"You will get a full lunch break, but we will not even sticker these books. You are going to memorize the SKU, it will be taped up on the register. And you will be like, your fingers will be flying, and you will be selling these books." And I was listening, but it wasn't that I was a smartass, but I was like, "Yeah, yeah. How bad can it be?" Okay.

Jennifer Prokop 9:58 / #
Wow.

Elda Minger 9:59 / #
We get there, we're there at 7:30 / # in the morning, by eight o'clock, it's like a rock concert.

Sarah MacLean 10:07 / #
(gasps) Wait, was she there? Or was it just the book?

Elda Minger 10:10 / #
No, no, no. This was just selling Shanna. And we had unpacked the book and Karen said, "Don't even shelve it. Stack it on your counter. Just stack it up." We're stacking it on the tables, and it's like, we literally had clerks, who their whole job was to give the book out, just give the book out. Here's Shanna. Here's Shanna. I was almost scared when they opened the door because it was like (she makes a whizzing sound) and this stampede of women came in and they were so alive and so excited in their eyes and their energy. And I was like, "What is this? What is this?" Now remember I'm here screaming, "Jane Austen. Come on women writers!" I have no idea what this is. So about 11 o'clock before my lunch break, I took a copy. I knew we were going to run out, and I hid it like under the counter. And on my lunch break I went back and put it in my locker because I thought, "I'm buying this, whatever this is. I don't know what it is, but it's something. It's something."

Sarah MacLean 10:59 / #
Had she described it to you?

Elda Minger 11:04 / #
She said it was a historical romance. And I was like, "What's that?" I've never heard of any of that because I was like in a bubble in Gambier, Ohio, tiny little college town. You know, there was barely a drugstore in Mount Vernon. And so where did you get books? You had your college bookstore and they sure didn't carry historical romance. So I go home, we make dinner. I crack open this book, and oh my god, I cannot stop reading. And I'm reading and I'm reading and I'm like, "I love this woman. She's not a nice girl. She's not a perfect woman. She's not a paragon of virtue. She's not the angel of the house. She's real. She doesn't want to get married. She's gonna pull a fast one over on her dad, which I was very, that was one of my specialties." And I was like, "Oh my God!" So I read and I probably got about half of it done and I fell asleep at four in the morning, dragged my ass to work, sold another whole huge day of Shannas. We were shipping them in from Chicago, because we'd run out. Unbelievable. I have never, I've never in my life seen a book sell like Shanna. It was unbelievable.

Sarah MacLean 12:03 / #
Well, just for our listeners, to give people a little bit of a frame of reference. Shanna is by Kathleen Woodiwiss, who wrote The Flame and the Flower. It was published in 1977, which is five years after The Flame and the Flower. So at this point, everybody who listens to the podcast knows that The Flame and the Flower sold two million copies in the first year. So Kathleen Woodiwiss is a rock star at this point.

Elda Minger 12:30 / #
She's a phenomenon.

Sarah MacLean 12:31 / #
Millions and millions of women and men who are waiting for that book to come out.

Elda Minger 12:37 / #
Yeah, it's a phenomenon. And so I finished the book, and I said to my friend, Janet, who worked at the bookstore, I said, "Are there more like this?" And she goes, "Oh, please!" She leads me down to the whole big bookshelf and she goes, "Get this, this, this." So number two I read The Wolf and the Dove. Loved it. Number three Sweet Savage Love. Loved it. I mean just, I went through everything. I went through Rosemary Rogers and Kathleen Woodiwiss, and Shirley Busbee, and Laurie McBain and I, oh my God, just on and on and on. And I'm like, "What is this?" I just fell in love. And I had a story in the back of my head. And this is really interesting because I was at the Writers Guild when Stephen Gaghan talked about Traffic, and how he wrote the movie script. And he is from St. Louis, and he said, "Three weeks after my father died, I started writing." And he said, "I don't know why. But that was it." And I was in the front row and I just stopped writing, I took little notes for friends, but I was like, "Oh my God, three weeks after my father died, I started writing the story that was in my head." And this is the weird part, it was a historical romance. And I didn't even know the genre. I did not know the genre. So I thought, "That's interesting." And he said, "I think it was my desperate attempt to control what I couldn't control." And I thought, "Yep. Bingo! You nailed me. Doesn't take Freud to figure that one out." So I'm writing this historical romance, I'm reading them like crazy. I end up driving to LA, because we ended up, after my dad died, we moved back to the west coast because all the rest of our family was there. And so Harlequin used to have an office on Sunset Boulevard. And the woman who ran it was named Evelyn Grippo. And she would have these things where she'd set up chairs and have cookies and coffee and talk about romance. And she'd say, "I'm always looking for writers." And I didn't think about writing a Harlequin then because I was writing my historical. So I finished it. And then there was a thing called the California Writers Conference. And Florence Feiler, a very ancient older lady, was there, an agent. And my, my claim to fame with her was that she had gotten the manuscripts beforehand, and she had read my first historical and when I came in to meet her, I was so nervous that I hyperventilated. Then she had to give me a bag and I was like breathing into the bag (makes frantic deep breathing noises.) And she was like, "Calm down, honey, calm down." And I'm like (makes frantic deep breathing noises again.) And she goes, "First of all, you can write. So that's the good news." She said, "Secondly, here's the bad news. The historical market is dead. Do you know what a Harlequin is?" And I said, "I do! I love them!" And she goes, "Good. Tonight at the dinner, go up to Fred Kerner and tell him I told you to tell him to send you a box of Harlequins." And I said, "Okay." So Fred Kerner was this very flamboyant guy at Harlequin who wore a white suit and they did those parties for women readers. This is like ancient history, but he was a nice guy. And I went up to him and I said, "Florence Feiler asked me to ask you to send me a box of Harlequins." He goes, he took a business card, "Write down your address, honey. Okay. It will be to you." So I told my mom and my mom was like, "Hmm." Because my mother was like a Capricorn and a very business oriented woman. So three weeks later to the day, this big box comes crashing down on my apartment step, like a huge 46 paperback count box, filled with Romance and Presents and my mother was like, "I'll be damned." The first one I picked up Janet Daily, No Quarter Asked. So I'm reading and I'm going and see I came from a theater background, so I'm like, "God, this is like a really intense one act play. This is harder than it looks."

Sarah MacLean 15:59 / #
Oh, it's so interesting that you frame it that way.

Elda Minger 16:02 / #
That was the way my mind worked, and I began breaking it down and breaking it down. And I was taking a writing class with Marilyn Lowery who was a great influence on me. You could not get in her Saturday morning class unless you had your 10 pages, no ifs, ands, or buts. So that really taught me discipline. But anyway, so I read them all and I wrote one and I sent it to London. And I remember I was so upset. I was like puking practically because I was so nervous. And I remember my brother said, "Why do you have to mail it? I'll mail it." I was like, "Good. Go do it. I can't do it. I'm too scared." So I got a little thin letter from England, from Frances Whitehead that said, "Dear Miss Minger, Though your story was entertaining, it is not suitable for our list, and we already have our American writer. But thank you so much for considering -"

Sarah MacLean 16:45 / #
Our American writer who is Janet Dailey.

Elda Minger 16:47 / #
Janet Dailey. And so I remember thinking, "Alright, our list. What does that mean?"

Sarah MacLean 16:50 / #
Wait, we heard this. Did we hear this story?

Jennifer Prokop 16:53 / #
Nora Roberts is famous for saying that.

Elda Minger 16:56 / #
Everybody got this letter. Everybody got this letter. Not right for your list. And I was like, "Not right for my list."

Sarah MacLean 17:03 / #
We have our American writer.

Elda Minger 17:04 / #
Well my brother was like, "I think it means they don't want it." And I was like, "Yeah, I think you're right." So I kept writing and then Orange County -

Sarah MacLean 17:10 / #
But if you have to be in a club, Elda, you want to be in a club with Nora Roberts and Jayne Ann Krentz.

Elda Minger 17:15 / #
Oh yeah. Oh my God. Exactly. Exactly. And so Orange County was exploding at that point, because I read a book about romance, and it was interesting because Vivian was a pivotal part of it. It was like these men did not know what they had. They did not know what they had. But they knew they wanted more of it because it was making money. And so all this exploded and editors were literally, every month major editors from New York were flying out to LAX. Now down in Orange County they're like, "We don't want to drive up into LA, but hey El, you live in LA. Can you go to LAX and pick up the editors?" And they were like, "Don't you dare pick their brains. You're like a chauffeur. We'll give you gas money, but you just drive them down."

Sarah MacLean 17:55 / #
Well you seem like the kind of person who wouldn't be chatty at all.

Elda Minger 17:59 / #
Exactly. But the funniest part was, I remember I picked up Jacqui Bianchi, who I adored, she was with Mills and Boon. And so she was like, "Okay, fire away!" With that little British accent. She's like, "Fire away. Ask me anything." And I said, "Well, I'm not supposed to ask you anything." And she was like, "Oh, bollocks. Just ask me whatever you want. You know, just, we're in the car for an hour. Let's go." And she was great. And so these editors would come and they would, they had like the tip sheets, and they had all this stuff. I mean they had, they were so well organized. It was like, "Here's what we want. Here's what we need." It was so exciting, because everybody and their mother wanted romance, and everybody was trying to write it. And like Orange County had up to three, four hundred members at a time. And they were wonderful presentations, like the morning would be a local author, but the afternoon would always be like an editor, or an agent, and they were great.

Sarah MacLean 18:46 / #
We should say that the Orange County Chapter of RWA, until you know recently, has been one of the most vibrant chapters of RWA from the very start.

Elda Minger 18:56 / #
Yeah, it is THE chapter. I think Texas, Texas is important. California. I mean not that the others aren't, but like they're the major chapters. But it was just an amazing time. And so I did get an agent. And then it was funny because I wrote one romance. And I remember my agent said, "The next book," she said, "I'll send this one out, but the next one, try to think of something really interesting, like unusual, that'll set you apart." So my sister at the time was training exotic animals, and I thought that's pretty interesting.

Sarah MacLean 18:57 / #
That's a perfect Harlequin job.

Elda Minger 19:05 / #
Nobody had done that, and so I got information from her, and I wrote Untamed Heart. And so I was working at UCLA managing Ackerman Union and it was a really difficult job because professors would make students buy their $60 textbooks that were just like good for doorstops and much not else. And we'd be shipping them back and forth to the publishers constantly, like shipping them over, then shipping them back. It was like the biggest waste of postage ever. So I was in charge of that, and I'm back there in my my camouflage pants and my gray t-shirt, my hair up in a bun with a pencil through, my army boots, you know, and I'm shipping these boxes back. And it was really funny because I remember my agent called and she said, "Okay, Silhouette turned it down." And I said, "Okay, what was wrong with it? What do I need to improve?" And she goes, "No. Elda, I don't want to read you this letter." And I said, "No, no, I'm, you know, I can learn from criticism. I want you to tell me what's wrong with the book." And she was like, "I really don't want to." And I began to get suspicious, and I said, "Read it to me." And she said, "Well, okay. "I hate this book.""

Sarah MacLean 20:31 / #
What?

Elda Minger 20:32 / #
"I hate Hollywood people. I hate the industry."

Sarah MacLean 20:36 / #
(gasps) Please.

Elda Minger 20:36 / #
"This woman needs, this woman needs to stop. She should not consider a career as a writer." And I'm like, I'm like on the phone, before cellphones, gutted. Tears coming into my eyes, and I'm saying, "Okay, okay. Don't send it out. Don't send it out."

Sarah MacLean 20:51 / #
This is Untamed Heart that we're talking about, because Untamed Heart is about a Hollywood star.

Elda Minger 20:57 / #
Yeah. Yeah. It's about a director directing a movie in Puerto Rico. She's the animal trainer, and it was just like, "I hate these people. I hate Hollywood. It's a horrible, you know, tell her to stop." And see that was the part, I mean it's fine if you say, "We don't really care for Hollywood books. It's not our cup of tea." But tell her, "Stop the career." And I was like, "She's got to know. She's an editor."

Sarah MacLean 21:17 / #
Oh god. I hope you one day walked right up to her and said, "Look at me. I'm amazing!" (laughs)

Elda Minger 21:23 / #
Later on at this conference, this woman said to me, "Why have you never chosen to write for Silhouette?" And I thought, "Well if you only knew. If you only knew."

Sarah MacLean 21:31 / #
You know, we've heard, nobody will name this editor, and I'm not going to ask you to, but we've heard about this Silhouette editor before.

Elda Minger 21:37 / #
Yeah. Yeah. Bad letters.

Sarah MacLean 21:39 / #
I assume it's the same Silhouette editor that we've heard from other people.

Elda Minger 21:39 / #
Oh yeah.

Sarah MacLean 21:43 / #
So, you know.

Elda Minger 21:46 / #
Oh, yeah. And so I begged my agent. I said, "Please don't send it out. I'll give you another book. Please don't send this out." I was like crying on the phone, people at work, I mean it was like back in the bowels of the receiving and the docks and the trucks and all, but still, a couple of my students were looking at me like, "What's going on?" And she goes, "Well, I've already sent it out. Harlequin American Romance is looking for authors, and I sent it to Vivian Stephens." And I was so pathetic. I was like, "Get it back! Please get it back!" And she's like, "Oh, honey, one editor likes it, one editor doesn't." So literally two days later, she calls me at work, "You just sold your first book." And I'm like, "What?" This is like total cognitive dissonance.

Jennifer Prokop 22:25 / #
Like whiplash.

Elda Minger 22:25 / #
Cognitive dissonance. "What? The same book?" And she goes, "Yeah. Yeah. Vivian Stephens said, "Oh my God, I've just found my action adventure writer."

Sarah MacLean 22:25 / #
(gasps) Yay!

Elda Minger 22:27 / #
And I went -

Jennifer Prokop 22:43 / #
That's amazing.

Elda Minger 22:38 / #
And I hung up the phone, and at the time, it was a $6,000 advance, and that was close to what I made in a year at that time. And I thought, "I'm quitting my job, and I'm going to write the next book. I'm going to give it 100%." So I went to my boss to quit, to basically give her two weeks notice or a month's notice, and she goes, "Oh to hell with your notice." And she goes, "Shut that door. I'm ordering a pizza. How the hell did you sell a book? I want to sell a book." It's like every, every you know, we're all book people working in bookstores. We all love to read. Within the next two weeks, I was working there before I left, almost everyone in every department came up to me and said, "Tell me how you did this. How did you do this? How did you sell this book?" So it was hilarious, but Vivian was great.

Jennifer Prokop 23:20 / #
Yeah, tell us about working with Vivian.

Elda Minger 23:24 / #
She was so far ahead of her time, she and Carolyn Nichols both, and I think, they again, exuded that energy. They had that, just that magnetism. They were, they were almost like little rock stars in their own right, because like an editor would get up and talk about stuff, and you'd be kind of like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." Carolyn and Vivian, they'd command the stage, they'd say, "This is what I want." They were absolutely 100% sure in what they were doing and what they wanted.

Jennifer Prokop 23:48 / #
At this time Carolyn was working for her Harlequin. Later, so for everyone who's listening, later, she goes on to essentially be the founding editor of Loveswept.

Elda Minger 23:59 / #
Right.

Jennifer Prokop 23:59 / #
At this point, she was a Harlequin editor.

Elda Minger 24:01 / #
I don't know, I don't remember Carolyn at Harlequin. But Vivian, I was working with Vivian, and she was starting this new line, American Romance. She had come to talk to us about it, and she said, "The hero can be 20 pounds overweight, you know, that they can be a little balding. She can be realistic, you know, make them real people." And I really kind of liked the concept. And so I remember she said to me, "I want the books to be you. You know, I want you to write what you want to write. I want it to be your voice, your ideas, your imagination, just go wild. I will, you know, tell me your idea and nothing is too crazy. I'll help you shape it, but just go. You know, just go." And she liked Untamed Heart a lot, and I remember the reason I put in the condom, and this is funny 'cause I hadn't thought about this in years, this will sound like the Stone Age to you guys because you're much younger. I grew up in a town, I went to high school in a town of 1200 people. It was still very much a, I would call it a boy's town, like lots of hunting, fishing, ice fishing, skiing, sledding. Women were, you know, married young, had their kids and kind of disappeared is the only way I can put it. They disappeared. And marriage, I remember Jessie Bernard once said, a sociologist, she said, "Marriage is a great deal for men and children, but not so great for women." And I remember reading that and thinking, "Yep." When women did not have access to birth control, and biologically, the sex drive is strong. I had numerous friends who got pregnant, and back in the day, there was no abortion. If you could find a doctor you could go, you could get someone to do the job, and then if you started bleeding out, you went to the emergency room. And I had two friends, older sisters, they told me later on, it was like the most terrifying experience of their lives, which is why abortion must always be safe and legal. But you had two choices. And I had two girlfriends in high school who, their beginning of their senior year or summer of their junior year, whatever, they went to visit their aunt, and they came back and they looked gutted. And I never forgot the look in their eyes, like dead eyes, because they had had their baby and given it up for adoption, because that was the option or you cornered the guy and married him, and if he thought he was trapped, it was not a good marriage, and it usually ended up in divorce. So birth control back then, I worked at a drugstore and the condoms were in a glass case behind the pharmaceutical counter. You could only buy them if you were married. This is how bad things were. You know, when I look back, it's like God, it was like the Stone Age. But the thing was, I couldn't in good faith, and all the romances, the historicals of course, they would have sex and then she'd be pregnant and there'd be a big brouhaha, but in the end he would love the baby. But with a contemporary I thought, "I can't do this. I can't do this." And I had interesting parents because my mother is from Puerto Rico, staunch Roman Catholic, could not have the sex talk with me. So my dad was like, "This is very embarrassing, but we're going to have the sex talk, and I don't think I can look at you while we do this, but you need to be protected." And I remember he told me, "Teenage boys will do anything. They would do a knothole in a plank. You have to understand this about male nature. And he said, "They will tell you, "I love you." They will promise you the moon and you are a very romantic girl, and you will have sex with him. And Monday morning he will be telling all his friends at school and you will be brokenhearted." And that did happen to one of my girlfriends, where she gave it up to a guy, and she was the town pump for the last two years of high school, and she never had a boyfriend because she didn't dare. And I remember thinking, "God, that's awful!" But you know, my dad taught college and he said, "Many a woman's college career was derailed because some guy said, "I love you. I'll be with you forever." And she ended up raising the baby with her and her mom and dropping out of school. And he said, "I don't want that for you. I don't know how more plainly to put it." And I was like, "Got it, Dad. Got it." Because he was pretty, I mean he said, "I don't expect you to be a virgin when you're married. It's different times, but pick a man who likes women." And I was at 16, so stupid, 14, "Daddy, all men like women." And he's like, "No, they don't. Pick a man who really does like and treasure women." So when I approached Untamed Heart, I thought, "Okay, I've got to somehow put birth control into it." And I said to Vivian, "Can I do that?" And she said, "If you can figure out a way to make it work, I'm all for it." She was like, what Vivian gave us more than anything was she trusted us as writers. She trusted our skill. I mean I was still a pretty raw beginner, but she gave me wings. You know she trusted me. She trusted me. She said, "You can do it." She gave you confidence.

Sarah MacLean 28:47 / #
I just want to say, I want to interrupt, because I re-read Untamed Heart this week, and I marked the page because I think it's important. I mean a lot of people, I bought a copy on eBay so that I could read it.

Elda Minger 29:04 / #
I have my copy.

Sarah MacLean 29:05 / #
There is this, I mean, first of all the hero, Ryan, is so, that first scene. Jen, I don't think you've read this book, and let me tell you, you're going to love it because they're in a sleeping bag in the first scene.

Jennifer Prokop 29:09 / #
Oh, I love that.

Sarah MacLean 29:20 / #
I mean, that's Jen’s kink.

Elda Minger 29:24 / #
(Laughing) I love it!

Sarah MacLean 29:25 / #
So they're in a sleeping bag, and it's very romantic, and he doesn't expect them to be in a sleeping bag together, and he says, “I can't, we can't have…” He brings her to orgasm, and then she's like, “What about you?” And he's like, “We can't have sex because I can't protect you.” And he says it just like that, “I can't keep you safe.” And it is great! And then when they finally do do it, it's so well done. I mean you basically begin what we have all done in contemporaries, where you know, the drawer opens and closes, and he turns away, and then he turns back and then they do it.

Jennifer Prokop 30:12 / #
Right.

Sarah MacLean 30:12 / #
And it's really, I mean you put it, you put it on page! So, Elda, I want to talk, so first of all, I mean Vivian was absolutely right to trust you. You did a magnificent job. It's so romantic and beautiful, and I want to ask, because I know that you also wrote, you ended up writing a piece about condom usage for RWA magazine, and I'm curious if you could talk a little bit about the response to it, because I know not every writer was super excited to put safe sex on page.

Elda Minger 30:50 / #
Well some women said, “It completely destroys the romantic fantasy.” And then a friend of mine quipped -

Sarah MacLean 30:56 / #
It’s so romantic.

Elda Minger 30:56 / #
Well the thing that was funny, a friend of mine quipped and said, “No, the real fantasy is that the guy would offer the protection.” And I was like, “Now, now, let's not go there, you know, let's not do that.” I just, I think I was lucky in a weird kind of way, because my mother being from the Caribbean, she had a different take on sex, she was very prudish and couldn't give me the talk, because she could not imagine me having sex in high school or even early college. But at the same time she was like, “It is a universal experience when you're with the right man. It's the most wonderful feeling in the world. It's fabulous. Don't be ashamed. Don't be, you know, don't have any shame or trepidation or fear. It's a wonderful thing. It gives you babies, you know, it's wonderful.” And so I think in some ways, I had a, a healthier attitude towards sex, because I had a lot of female friends who were like, and it really made me sad. It was like, “I can't even touch myself down there. It's so disgusting.” And I'm like, “What do you mean? What do you mean? That's you. That's you.” And then of course, Our Bodies Ourselves, and that was blowing up at the same time. And so we were all kind of learning at the same time, but I felt, I just kept saying, “I think it's intensely romantic if a man protects a woman, and if he looks out for her. It's intensely romantic and intensely beautiful, you know? And I never ever thought, it's so funny, and I'll tell you something you guys did for me. I wasn't going to put up my first four books on ebook, my first four Americans. And after I got your letter, I sat down and I thought, “No, I need to and I'm not going to.” Because people said, “Change and put in cell phones, make them different.” And I thought, “No.” I was going to call them “Blast from the Past”. And then I thought, “No, they're so badly written. I don't know if I want to put them up.”

Sarah MacLean 30:59 / #
They’re not badly written. They’re so romantic.

Elda Minger 31:03 / #
But then I thought, “Well, they're part of history.” I re-read Untamed Heart, and it was like, “God, Ryan's kind of a, God he's forceful!” But then I realized like halfway through the book he says, “I love you. It's different for me. This is different for me. Trust me and all the bullshit in the tabloids, you know.” So it was a very weird experience for me. And I thought, “No, I'm going to put these books up.” So you guys are responsible for that, the first four books.

Sarah MacLean 33:00 / #
I’m so glad to hear that!

Jennifer Prokop 33:01 / #
That’s amazing.

Sarah MacLean 33:02 / #
So they're coming soon.

Elda Minger 33:03 / #
Yeah, they're coming.

Sarah MacLean 33:05 / #
Oh, I'm so glad.

Elda Minger 33:06 / #
I will get Untamed Heart up really soon. The other thing about the back alley stuff was that a lot of girl’s first time out, couldn't have a baby, got abortions and became sterile. And that's a terrible thing for a woman to have to go through. They got infections. They got sterile. It's so unnecessary. And you know, people think like, I think a lot of people think it's like, "Well have an abortion! Have two!" And it's not like that. It's not that simple a thing because my girlfriend's older sister, she had three children, they were struggling, they could barely feed the third one. They were using birth control, she got pregnant and she said "It was most horrible decision of her life, because she's already a mother." She knows, you know, but she knew that they wouldn't survive with another child. And you know life can be very grim and very tough. And so you know, people who say women who have abortions, yeah, I'm sure they're women who use it as birth control. There are irresponsible women. Sure. But I think the vast majority, it's a really hard decision to make and it's nothing they take lightly, or think is just a walk in the park. You know it's not, it's not an easy thing. And so to me, birth control, have it there. You know, a young girl could read, I felt like a young girl could read Untamed Heart, the way I read those Harlequins when I was in high school. And she would be, when he says, "We're not protected." She would know what that, I'm sure she would figure out that's birth control, "Wow, that's what a hero does." And I've had women come up to me, like younger women and say, "I never knew men could be that way with women. When I read your books, I never knew men could care that much for women." And I'm like, "Oh, my God!" So you know a lot of authors go, "Eh, we're not curing cancer." But we are affecting people, we are affecting people who read our books.

Sarah MacLean 34:51 / #
You know that reader response, I never knew that this was a thing I could expect when we talk about expectations and romance. That's what we're talking about, is it shouldn't be a high expectation, an unrealistic expectation and should be -

Elda Minger 35:08 / #
Exactly.

Sarah MacLean 35:09 / #
An expectation.

Elda Minger 35:11 / #
Exactly. Exactly.

Jennifer Prokop 35:13 / #
It's funny, Elda, because I'm 47 and a lot of the stories you told about high school and no, this isn't about me, but I'm going to tell a story about my mom. And when I was in high school, I went to a Catholic high school, and there were a lot of girls who were pregnant, who got pregnant and like you, some of them gave the baby up for adoption. Some of them got married really young, and I will never forget this is a moment where, you have that moment where you're like, "This was when my parents did the best job parenting." So there was a girl in my neighborhood who was, I was a sophomore in high school and this girl was a senior. She was my older brother's age. And she was walking by, my mom and I were in our driveway for some reason, this girl walked by with her baby in a stroller, and my mom looked at me and she was like, "Look, I don't ever want that to be you. So if you're going to have sex, I want you to know I will take you to the doctor and you can go on birth control." And then there was this long pause and she said, "Okay, I'm not going to do it, but one of my friends will." (laughter)

Elda Minger 36:20 / #
What a great mom! What a great mom!

Jennifer Prokop 36:23 / #
I will never forget that moment, but this was, you know, this was almost 1990 when we would have had this conversation.

Elda Minger 36:31 / #
And we're still not protecting our girls. We are still not protecting our girls, because you look at rapes on college campuses. You look at girls going, oh, a great dad story. My dad was exceptional. I never knew it until I began talking to other women. When I went away to school, and again, because he was a college professor, he saw all this. He said, "When you go to a frat party, don't drink the punch." And I'm like, "What do you mean? Like Hairy Buffalo where they put all the alcohol, all the different bottles, right?" And he goes, "You don't know what's in it." And he said, "What you do is you ask for a can of Coke, and you watch them open it up. And honey, when you go to the bathroom, you take that Coke can with you." And I'm like, "Daddy, you are like, I'm going to be, I'm never going to be married. I'm going to be like a widow. I'm going to be like that maiden aunt up in the garret the way that you're doing my love life, you know." And he said, "Trust me on this." So my first frat party at Kenyon, I got, I remembered my dad, I got my Coke. Didn't take it to the bathroom. So I'm peeing in the bathroom, and I'm thinking, "I should have taken my Coke, but what the heck." So I come back and the guy hands it to me and he says, "Here you go." And I just had this weird, I always follow my gut, just had this weird feeling, and I said, "Why don't you take a sip first?" And he hesitated and I was like, "You bastard." And I went and I opened up another can of Coke, because you know, date rape drugs, maybe they weren't date rape, like the actual drug, but you know they could put stuff in to make you pass out or whatever. And I remember I cracked open another Coke, and I was just looking him like thinking, and then all of a sudden I thought, "Why am I here? Why am I here?" And I left and I never went to another frat party. But it's like, I have friends who, oh God, the stories I could tell you. And the two pregnancies that affected me the most were a girlfriend I had, two years ahead of me, senior year got pregnant. Her father made the guy marry her and they rented a house across the street from us, and during the summer, my bedroom window was open. And I was reading my Harlequins and I could hear them fighting, and they had been so in love. And they were fighting because they had no money. And her dad was paying for stuff. And her husband was like, "How do you think it makes me feel that your dad's paying for everything?" And you know, just endless fights. And I remember thinking, "This is so sad." And they did end up getting divorced. And the other one was my best friend from high school. She got pregnant, and her mom was like, "That's it. You're out." So she walked down to our house and looked at my mom. And I remember my mom said, "Elda, you need to leave the room, just for now." So I snuck over to the stairway and I sat in the stairway and I listened. And my girlfriend told my mom, "I'm pregnant." And my mother said, "Your mother loves you. She'll come around. Until then you'll stay here with us." And I still remember my dad grading papers, walking around, this, this was the era, a Lucky Strike hanging out of his mouth and rocking the baby because he wouldn't sleep. You know, but it's like, both lives derailed and not that children aren't wonderful, but the ability to time your family, and to be sure that the man is marrying you for the right reasons, you know what I mean? Like you're getting off to a good start. There are people who make it work and God bless them, but you know, a lot of times it doesn't. So it was so funny, I had never thought of this, but I just remember having a, it was like an ethical dilemma. I couldn't write a love scene where they just did it, and then nothing happened to her or she got pregnant, and it all worked out, you know, even though that's a huge romance trope, but I couldn't do it, you know?

Sarah MacLean 37:31 / #
Have you ever written a secret baby book?

Elda Minger 39:54 / #
Oh, yes. Oh, yes. In fact, I wrote, I, you know, I always challenged myself to do something, like Vivian would say like, "You always do these things that are so far out." I did Bachelor Mother and that was, I think it was the first book where a woman asked a man to get her pregnant, because she had a, I read a column in Dear Meg in the Star, and she said, "Dear Meg, I've always known I wanted to be a mother. I have problems with my ovaries. I have six months to get pregnant, and no boyfriend in sight. I'm thinking of asking my best friend to get me pregnant. What do you think?" And Dear Meg was like a staunch conservative and she said, "Do it, honey. Do it. You want that baby, you go for it." And I thought, "There's a book here." So that was one of my most popular Americans because she asked him to get her pregnant -

Sarah MacLean 40:41 / #
I can't wait to read that.

Elda Minger 40:42 / #
And then they fall in love. They fall in love. And then I actually did one for Temptation called Rescue Me. And the review I got on Amazon said, "Elda Minger has written a romance with absolutely no conflict and it works. And I don't know how she did it, but it works." And so I, you know, I like challenging myself. I did Daddy's Little Dividend. I did every other chapter in the past, like, present, past, present past, and then it all tied up at the end, and my editor called and said, "You know you didn't tell me if you were going to do this much. You didn't tell me you were going to do this much flashback." And I said, "Well, you know, what the heck." And she said, "But it does work, so we'll go ahead." And one of the ways I did my career, two things I did that were really crucial that I recommend to all authors. One thing I did was I always turned in full manuscripts, because I saw what happened to romance writers when they did a proposal and then they turned in, the book was sold, so the publisher had you. And then basically they had to rewrite it three and four times because it wasn't quite what they wanted, and it was just month after month after month. So and they were like, "Well, why would you write the whole thing? What if it's wrong?" And I said, "If it's wrong, I'll start another book, but I want the whole book to be there so they see what they see is what they get." And 90% of the time it was fine. And the other thing I've always recommended, my mom, God bless her, when I sold my first book she said, "Now darling, you need a lawyer." And I was like, "What are you talking about?" And she said, "You need a lawyer to look over your contract." And I said, "What?" You know, because I was down in Orange County. Nobody had a lawyer, you know. And she said, "You are now a small business, and you need to protect yourself. Find a lawyer. We're in Hollywood, I'm sure you can find an entertainment lawyer." I found a great lawyer. She did my first three contracts, my first 13 Americans. And she, there was all these clauses and it said, "The rights clause." She said, "Here's where the money is, and here's where you need to protect yourself." And it was very funny, because it was number F, which was appropriate, because it said, "And all other rights that may ever come into existence." And I said, "What the hell is that?"

Sarah MacLean 42:49 / #
I signed one of those, without an agent, first contract.

Elda Minger 42:54 / #
Yep, but it was funny because her name was Susan. And she said, "Honey, what if they somehow figure out a way to project your book on the moon, so that simultaneously everybody can read it? And you get no money from that?" And I was like, "Oh." And so book 14, I think was 13 or 14, Harlequin let my agent know, "We really like Elda. We really like her books, but we don't like her that much." You know, no more of this, like she can't push for anything else, but then when ebooks came into existence, everyone who had signed, "and all other rights that may come into existence," lost their ebooks. And I've gone to conventions, science fiction, fantasy, mystery people have come up to me, "How did you keep your books? How did you end up with all those titles to put up as ebooks?" And it was because of my mom. So good contract lawyer. Full manuscripts. That's, that's just the way I went.

Sarah MacLean 43:44 / #
This is incredible! I love all these stories! So Elda, just walk us through. So at this point you've written, you wrote for Harlequin American. Obviously, Vivian Stephens was only there for about a year and a half.

Elda Minger 44:00 / #
Right.

Sarah MacLean 44:01 / #
Then you moved to, you were moved to a different editor. Who was your sort of long standing editor? Did you have one?

Elda Minger 44:08 / #
I had Vivian, and then I had Debbie Matteucci. She was wonderful. Then I, American had a problem because the problem with American was they kept changing the focus, like one year was small town babies and apple pie. Then the next year, it was something else, and the next year it was something else, and it's really hard, you know, when they have this really distinct way you have to have the book, but they change it every year. Like Desire was like straight through, you could, you could know five years from now Desire would be basically a really sexy book, you know, and a good conflict. And so I remember I called, who did I call? I left a call, I think Randall Toye was, no, I called Debbie and I said, "I want to try and write for a different line. I feel like I'm getting stale. And it was really weird because Randall Toye called me up and said, "No, no, no, you will not go to Silhouette. Where would you like to go?" And I said, "Well, where could I go?" And he said, "How about Temptation?" And I said, "Good. I'll go there". So I loved working with Birgit Davis-Todd.

Sarah MacLean 45:08 / #
Would you explain to everybody the difference? What did Temptation mean at the time?

Elda Minger 45:12 / #
Temptation was like 65,000 words, so middling length, not short, not long, and really sexy. Temptation was like, you know, it's like Oscar Wilde, "I can resist anything but temptation." Right?

Jennifer Prokop 45:23 / #
It was kind of the precursor to Blaze, is what I would say.

Elda Minger 45:28 / #
Yeah. It was a great line. I wish they'd never destroyed it or cut it. I thought it could have gone, I would have written for them forever. But I loved Birgit, she was such a, she was probably at this point the best editor. Well, Vivian was, Vivian was the best as far as innovation and starting out. But as far as, as just editing and getting me to be the best writer, I could be, I would say Birgit Davis-Todd, because she went to McGill University and got a degree in editing. I mean, just an incredible woman, and she could always find that one piece in the manuscript that didn't work, and she'd point it out and you'd go, "Of course! Oh, my God! I didn't even think of that." But she was great. And then I did due two historicals and then I segued into bigger books for Berkeley, and then I went straight to ebooks. The last five or six years have been dicey, because I've had some death in my family and some family stuff. And so it's been a little slower than I would like, but it's like I, you know, it's not a self-indulgent thing. But it's like, when things, when the shit hits the fan, I'm not one who can just sit down and write, you know. But I've enjoyed putting the older books up online, I've gotten good response from them. And I really liked doing the longer books, and it's funny because I, I kind of had a little bit of a friction with Berkeley, as far as the bigger books, a lot of changes with editors and stuff. And I, with The Fling, I had wanted to do the other two women's stories. And now with ebooks, I'm thinking now I can, you know, and there's so many, there's so many people I know who had mystery series, and after three or four, when they didn't sell the way the publisher wanted them to, they're like, "Okay, you're done with that series." And now they're putting them all up online, and readers are buying them. So you know, I like that ebooks are giving publishers a run for their money. I like that.

Sarah MacLean 47:10 / #
Can you talk a little bit about readers? You talked a little bit about this when we talked about readers responding to your human, kind, decent men, but can you talk a little bit about the romance community of readers and how you found them and how they came to you?

Elda Minger 47:32 / #
It is so amazing! I went to my first few writers conferences, and there is no fan that loves you, and I don't even like the word fan, really, but there's no reader who loves you the way a romance reader does. And I thought about this, and I remember back in the day with Presents, I remember all my girlfriends who had babies, they were like, "I'm run ragged all day, but at the end of the day, when the kids are in bed, my husband's snoozing in the reclining chair, that's my time. I get to open my Presents, and I read a chapter or two, and that's my time." And I remember thinking, "Wow!" You know, because I'm a serial monogamist, but I never married, never had kids. But I remember thinking I always had my time. I always had reading time. I always had time. And what would that be like to be so busy during the day that you would read a little bit at night? We'd read a little bit at night, and that was your time and I thought what are these books giving women? And I have a real theory about The Flame and the Flower and the early romance books, because I think with the 50 year Woodiwiss anniversary coming up, we also have to really pay homage to Nancy Coffey, because that woman was a frickin' genius. And I love the story, slush pile, takes it home, can't stop reading, calls her up, edits it, but basically a 600 page, I mean this huge thing, and the thing that she did that was so genius was she said, "I'm going to put this out as a big spectacular." And it was a big print run, big cover, big everything so it was noticed.

Sarah MacLean 49:00 / #
Nancy Coffey was the editor who pulled The Flame and the Flower off the slush pile at Avon books and made essentially romance an Avon, historical romance and mass market romance would not exist -

Elda Minger 49:15 / #
Exactly.

Sarah MacLean 49:16 / #
Without Nancy Coffey at Avon at the time, which was not HarperCollins, it was a pulp publisher.

Elda Minger 49:22 / #
Well, it was funny because they go, "We wouldn't have careers without Kathleen Woodiwiss and Nancy Coffey." I'm always like, "And Nancy Coffey." Then Rosemary Rogers sends her manuscript, she addressed it to the editor who edited The Flame and the Flower, care of Avon books. And Nancy gets that and all these books start coming out and coming out so they have a bad rap. You know, the whole bodice ripper idea, the whole, the whole rape concept idea, and I think people were very uncomfortable with it and men were really uncomfortable with it. Because women were having sex and enjoying sex. And this was a, I know it sounds like I'm a dinosaur, but this was like such a new concept, like Frank Irby and Scarantino and all these guys who wrote before, they would fade to black when the door closed or the cave, you know, the firelight flickered and died or whatever happened, and then the next couple of scenes suddenly she'd be pregnant. And you'd be like, "Oh, I guess they did it." You know, I mean, you never got the sex and Woodiwiss blew open the bedroom door. And so the thing about the rapes, I gave this a lot of thought, and I thought, back in the day, and I'm in a weird generation, because the women before me, like if you got engaged, you could have sex with your, your engaged guy, because that was like you were already going to be married, "What the heck if the baby came a month early, who cared? Or two months early?" But it was like men were very much like, "Where'd you learn that? Where'd you hear about that? What's going on?" You have to remember no internet. no porn, except for guys like, projected in a garage on like a movie thing. Yeah, exactly. But I mean, it wasn't like it is now where everything's at the touch of a button. And so men were very much, "Where'd you learn that? Where'd you hear about that? Wait a minute, who've you been with? What's going on?" So women were very constrained, and they were put in this box, and I think a lot of women's depression is they don't get to be their authentic self. They don't get to be who they really are, because they're afraid that if they are who they really are mother, father, husband, even kids will abandon them. So I think that does cause depression. So then suddenly, this book comes out, and you know, Shanna especially, here's this woman who completely, even though some people found her horrible, she was her authentic self, and she did what she wanted to do. And God knows, you know, Sweet Savage Love, all of Rosemary Rogers' heroines were willful, and, and some spoiled and proud, and they just did what they wanted to do. But then we come to the sex and it's like, okay, how do you have women have sex in an era where nice girls do but may not enjoy it? Or you won't, see a friend of mine said it beautifully, because she said, "You know, we're so screwed up, El, because we're told, keep your knees together, don't have sex. Don't think about things. Even though you know, the hormones are raging, then suddenly a wedding ring's put on your finger and kaboom! You're supposed to turn right on and have multiple orgasms. It doesn't work that way." And I was like, "Yeah, it's true." So how do you get a woman to have sexual enjoyment? And I thought, "Well, you, have the hero." And I said this in Boston RWA, because people were saying these rape sagas are horrible. And I said, "Some of them are rape." I mean, there were books that had pretty awful rapes, but a lot of them I call them forced seduction, because it's like a gorgeous man will not take no for an answer. And then the other little tidbit I dug out from a sexologist was he told me, "The number one fantasy of men and women both is being forced to have sex with someone who's incredibly desirable." And I thought, "Works for me." And I mean, you know, like, okay. And so it made total sense, because it was, it was almost like, I know, it sounds crazy, but it's almost like, the only way women of slightly older than my generation, because it was starting to get liberated when I went to college, that women who were older than me who were the primary readers of the bodice rippers, I don't like the term, but it gave them permission, because it was, it wasn't their fault. They couldn't do anything about it. This guy was overwhelming. He overwhelmed them, and they're, and this is my favorite, every book had some kind of line along this line, "her body betrayed her." That to me was almost like a, not a trope, I'm trying to think of the right word. It was almost like code for we all know, we all want to have great sex. We all know the body is primed for it, your prime reproductive years. It's the whole purpose of nature, if you don't reproduce, I mean, it's like, I always think of Princess Diana, once she had those two boys, she was disposable, unfortunately, but, but it's like, that's the tooth and claw of nature. Once you reproduce, you are expendable. And so everything in nature goes toward making sure that happens. And so you have this incredible drive, and then you have a society that says, "Keep it in check. You're in charge. Don't you let things go too far."

Sarah MacLean 54:11 / #
Well, and it's your fault.

Elda Minger 54:13 / #
And yeah, exactly! And you're the temptress! That was, I think that was a big part of the witch trials, all of it. You're the temptress. You're the one that led him on. And I thought about it, I thought, "What is it like to have an erection when a beautiful woman walks by? Wouldn't you feel kind of out of control?" Because I remember guys I was close to in high school, they were like, "Oh, it's the worst. Oh my God, it's just horrible, it's like I have to wait. Everyone else is filing out into the hallway, and I have to sit there with my book in my lap." And I thought, "Oh, this poor guy!" You know, but, but that's my theory about those books, is that they, you know, we look at them with modern day sensibility, and we forget the condoms behind the counter that only married people can have. We forget the guy saying to the girl, "Where'd you learn that? What's going on here? Who've you been with?" We forget there was a girl who was raped by a guy in town and he got six of his friends to say they'd been with her, and it was all thrown out. And we forget, we forget the frat parties and the stuff still goes on, it's not, I don't think it's as bad, because I think women have more of a voice, but we need to remember. And Woodiwiss, in a sense, I think the reason she is so loved, is that this girl went from being penniless and pretty much an orphan, and scared to death, and the guy think she's a prostitute and basically does rape her, but she's like so scared, she can't even tell him what's going on. But in the end, she comes around to having his love, his respect, his admiration, and she has like her own dignity back. It's like the women were paid attention to these books, and I really think it's important. They were like a stepping stone. I don't think you could sell one now. I don't think the modern day audience would buy any of it, but I think they were a crucial stepping stone, and they need desperately to be looked at, in the context of the time. Because I remember thinking, "This is great. This book is so hot." I mean, now it's like there's stuff out there that's, you know, burn the house down, it's so hot! But back then we read them and were like, "Oh my God! Women actually having sex!" And there, well I remember arguing with a professor and saying, Every damn woman in a book written by a man, if she has sex, she dies." And he's like, "What do you mean?" I said, "Anna Karenina. Madame Bovary." I just, on and on and on. "Charlotte Gilman Perkins, you know, the Yellow Room. Every single book, you know, she has sex, she enjoys it, kaboom, she's dead. It's like the person who goes, maybe we should go into that basement and see if that killer's down there, you always know that person is going to die. It's the same with a woman." And he was like, "I never thought of it that way." But I thought women in all of literature, it's like, 90% of the time they have sex and they're punished. And now we suddenly have a genre where she has sex and no matter what else has happened to her, rape or not, she's not killed. She lives and she lives to tell the tale. So I think it's, you know, we're coming up on 50 years and Woodiwiss just wrote the story she wanted to read. That's what blows my mind. And it changed the world.

Jennifer Prokop 57:07 / #
Did you ever meet her?

Elda Minger 57:09 / #
No, and I wish I had. She had horses. She raised Morgan horses, and there was a big scandal where she had an affair with a stable master, and I love that.

Sarah MacLean 57:18 / #
Really.

Jennifer Prokop 57:19 / #
Good for her.

Sarah MacLean 57:20 / #
Left her left her husband and -

Elda Minger 57:23 / #
Yeah. Yeah. And she had this love affair with the stable master, and I thought, "Only Kathleen, I love her. Only Kathleen." And then of course, Rosemary Rogers was a wild child, so she was great, too, you know, but they were terrific women, you know,

Sarah MacLean 57:35 / #
When you wrote your historicals, so you wrote Harlequin historicals?

Elda Minger 57:43 / #
No, I wrote one for Zebra and one for Berkeley.

Sarah MacLean 57:45 / #
Oh.

Elda Minger 57:46 / #
Big ones. Big fat ones. Oh, and I'll tell you a funny story about Velvet Fire. The editor there, who shall remain nameless, she said, "Just send it to me. It'll be fine." And I knew it wasn't terrific. I mean, I knew it was my first book. I wrote it, handwritten on legal pads with Bic Clics, you know, typed it up on a regular typewriter. I'm really dating myself. But I remember thinking," I've got to really go over it. I've written six Americans. I know a little bit more. I've got to go through it with a red pen." She was like, "No, no, no." And I said, "No, I insist." And so a friend of mine and I, we went through the whole thing, re-edited it, re-typed it, sent it in. So at that point, I think she was so frustrated with me at one point, she called me up and she said, "You know, you effing writers. You think it's what's between the covers that sells the books. Let me tell you something, it's the cover we make. It's the publicity campaign." It was everything, she listed everything but the actual writing. And I thought, "Oh my god, I cannot work with this woman again." So I just kept my mouth shut and the book came out and it did pretty well, but I never forgot that. And there's, there's, you have to be careful, like my dad said, "Find a man who likes women." Find an editor who likes writers, you know, find an agent who likes writers, you know, because it can be brutal out there. It can be tough. It can be tough. And the other thing with Velvet Fire was, the first sex scene she's sold in an auction. She's the Vicar's daughter.

Sarah MacLean 59:13 / #
I love it.

Elda Minger 59:13 / #
Into a bordello. Has to make her way to survive. This is like such a classic bodice ripper and so she's up on stage draped in this white silk and the candles are burning and of course, our hero goes against the villain to buy her and then the villain, that's it, it's a blood feud for the rest of the book. But the mistress of the household, the brothel owner, she looks and thinks, "Oh boy, this girl is going to put up a fight and this guy is not going to like this." So she drugs her. She gives her like an aphrodisiac and so this sex scene is wild in this bedroom, but it's like great sex, and of course she wakes up mortified, and then of course they go on to love each other, but -

Jennifer Prokop 59:51 / #
I'm ordering it now.

Sarah MacLean 59:52 / #
I'm literally going right now to buy it.

Elda Minger 59:56 / #
Well everyone in Antioch read this book, right. So a friend of mine, who shall remain nameless, well, she ran the beauty salon in town, and it was like Steel Magnolias. And she called me up and she said, "El, I know you're going to come home this summer," but she's like, "I don't think you should come home for a while." And I was like, "What are you talking about? What's wrong? What's wrong? I want to come see you guys." And she goes, "Well, um," and I won't say his name, "but you know, this guy, we both know, his wife has Velvet Fire on her bedside table." So she's taking a bubble bath, and he was like, "What's this shit?" You know, this, these horrible little books that my wife is reading, and that smartass Elda, and so the book falls open to the big sex scene, because of course, she's read it so many times and enjoyed it. So the book falls open, and he starts reading it, and I guess he went ballistic, and he called a bunch of his male friends who were married to her contemporaries and said, "Do you know this shit our wives are reading? Do you know what Elda to put in this book? Oh, my God!" You know, and so my girlfriend said, "You're kind of persona non grata around here for a while." And I was like, "Well, okay, I guess I'll come back, like next spring." And she was like, "It may have cooled down by then." But see, it's like there's such a, this is one of the things I think with romance -

Sarah MacLean 1:01:09 / #
This is the wrong way to deal with it, husbands.

Elda Minger 1:01:12 / #
Oh, I know.

Sarah MacLean 1:01:13 / #
If that book falls open to that page that has been read-

Elda Minger 1:01:16 / #
Read it!

Sarah MacLean 1:01:16 / #
Over and over again, read it, take notes, get it together and have a great weekend!

Elda Minger 1:01:23 / #
Exactly, exactly. But he was so, that was my era. Men would be very threatened by women having any sexual knowledge whatsoever, or any thoughts or desires. You know, like I had a girlfriend who told her husband a fantasy she had, and he goes "Where'd you come up with that?" He shamed her. And she said, "Never talked about fantasies again. Ever. Read them in my books, but not in my marriage." So I don't mean to be like, fuddy duddy here, but it happens. It happens. So that, that I thought was pretty funny, though. I did get a laugh out of that, because I know this guy, and I can picture him like, "Ah, what's this crap my wife's reading, and what the hell?" It was pretty funny. Made me laugh. Made me laugh.

Sarah MacLean 1:02:01 / #
Well, I just bought Velvet Fire, and I think we should do a deep dive episode on it. I'm just going to say it.

Jennifer Prokop 1:02:06 / #
We're going to have a great night. Elda, one question we really like to ask people is what's the book that you're most proud of, or a book that you hope outlives you, if there was sort of a, this is my best work?

Elda Minger 1:02:23 / #
I have three, out of my whole group of books, I have three that I really am fond of. I would say the first, Velvet Fire, because it was my first, my baby. When I finished that book, I felt I could conquer the world. And I know you probably know what I mean, Sarah, like, you're like, "Can I do it? Can I do it? Can I do it?" When you hit the end on that first book, so the second book is crucial, because there are a lot of one book wonders. But that first book, when you finish that book, you're like, "Oh my God." And that whole book came to me in a dream. I dreamed the entire damn book, and I just wrote it down. I take no credit. But I love that book. I mean, I was writing it while I was driving out to LA. I was typing it at night when I was, I mean, that I had such a passion for that book. I had to get it done, so I would say Velvet Fire for sure. The second one, strangely enough, is a very strange little book I did called Billion Dollar Baby, and it was about a bulldog that inherited millions of dollars, and I inserted kind of a mystery into an American. And I read it, again the National Enquirer, I read, I read the tabloids in line at the market, and it said, "Racehorse Inherits Millions of Dollars." And then it talked about all these animals that were left money and I thought, "Oh." And I had a bulldog as a kid, so I made it a bulldog. And I love that book, because it said a lot about what I feel about, I do animal rescue, and you know, it had a lot of my philosophy about animals and about broken people and about how anybody can heal. And then I would say the third book, I really, I felt like when it was done, it was like, "Yes! I got what I wanted to say down on the page." And that would be The Fling, because I, that was my first big contemporary, and I just loved it. That book was a joy from beginning to end. I just laughed my ass off writing it and had such a good time. And I had readers tell me, "I'll never make it to Hawaii, but I went there courtesy of The Fling. I've been to Hawaii now because of you." And you know, it's funny because you say the thing about the readers, there were two letters over the years that really touched me. One was Untamed Heart and this 17-year-old wrote me, like lined paper, cursive writing, "Dear Elda Minger," and she said, "I never knew that a girl could train wild animals. I never knew that a girl could even do this." And again, it's the time, you know, I'm dating myself. But she said, "I've always loved animals, and I'm going to find a way to work with them, like Samantha and thank you for showing me it is possible." I'm like bawling. I showed the letter to my sister and she's like, "Oh my God!" And the other letter I loved was, and I know this Midwest sensibility because I went to high school in Illinois and there's this woman in Minnesota and she said, "Dear Elda Minger, You don't know me, but I know you." And she said, "I want to thank you because I finished reading Daddy's Little Dividend." And she said, "Today was a hard day for me. Today was a very hard day for me. The five-year-anniversary of my mom's death." And then she said, "And my youngest son left for college." So she said, "It's all about being a mom and a mother and losing my mother and not being a mother anymore in the same way, and I was so depressed. So I had my TBR pile, and your book was on the top, and I started reading it, and a couple of hours later, you, you just," and this is the Midwest, I love this, I truly love this, "and you just perked me right up! You just perked me right up!" And I'm like reading this letter, bawling my eyes out, and that to me is worth thousands of dollars, any advance, to know that you've touched people. That's what it's all about. You know, that to me that's what it's all about. But I loved that, "You just perked me right up." So Minnesota.

Sarah MacLean 1:05:59 / #
Elda, I am so glad you answered my letter.

Elda Minger 1:06:04 / #
Oh, I am too! This has been so much fun.

Sarah MacLean 1:06:06 / #
Oh, I'm so happy, and I just know our listeners are going to be so riveted to these stories. So thank you so much for joining us.

Elda Minger 1:06:16 / #
Oh, thank you, you guys. I am so touched by the fact that you guys are doing this oral history because I don't want it to die. I want people to know the excitement, the fun, the privilege it was to work with these terrific women. And you know, both Carolyn and Vivian, they were powerhouses. They were women in a world, at that point, that was still pretty much dominated by men, and now publishing has a lot more women in it, and we're used to it. You know, we're used to the all the powerful women in publishing. But they were amazing. I mean, literally, when they got on the stage, it was like they were rock stars, and I'll tell you one Carolyn memory I have. I was at a convention and we were all setting up to autograph. And so you know how they have the U-shape, the U-shape and the bottom of the U is when the people come in the door, and then the two sides and the authors sit on the inside and you'd have your little placards and everything and your piles of books and then you go up to the register and it's for literacy. So a bunch of us were sitting around and there were there four seats on the bottom of the U and Carolyn came in and man, she was a powerhouse. Never mean, but my God, you did not mess with her. And she came up and she said to the women there, she goes, "You have to move. You have to move. You have to move." They were like, "What? What? Oh, okay." They move to the side of the U and she spread out, like remember how Loveswept was like that pinky-purple? She spread a pinky-purple, beautiful cloth and she put flowers up and everything, in all the different things. It was Iris Johansen, Kay Hooper, Fayrene Preston and I think it was Billie Green who might have been the fourth, but it was the four major Loveswept authors and she was, "You sit here. You sit here." There were candy bowls, bowls of candy, everything. It was like, it was like Patton orchestrating a big war. It was just like, it was amazing! And I was a couple of seats down and I just watched, this woman is amazing! They're right at the opening. People come in first thing they see, and I mean, like the big placards, you know what I mean? Like the posters and everything Loveswept! You know, right there. She was like, "Here, here, here, here. You sit here. Smile." You know, and she was like giving them confidence and all, and it was amazing. So they, but they were astounding women! Nobody really knew what they were doing, but they kind of took the ball and ran with it. They were amazing women. Amazing. So it's my honor to talk about them and to remind people of how wonderful they were and are.

Sarah MacLean 1:08:36 / #
Elda, are you still a romance reader?

Elda Minger 1:08:38 / #
Oh God, yes! I just finished - I like Lynne Graham.

Jennifer Prokop 1:08:42 / #
Lynne Graham still writes a lot of Harlequin Presents. They're terrific.

Elda Minger 1:08:45 / #
I love Presents. I will always read them for the rest of my life. But I will tell you, two of the all time greats, if your listeners haven't gotten these books, they need to get them used and read them.

Sarah MacLean 1:08:55 / #
Yeah.

Elda Minger 1:08:56 / #
Harlequin Presents by Roberta Leigh, who was a British writer who wrote for television and movies and Presents called Confirmed Bachelor, and it is one of the funniest books I have ever read. The premise is that she's an editor, and he is a misogynist who writes these horrible books about how men should be in the world. And the opening is his editor can't make it, you have to go to his Caribbean island and she's like, "Oh, no! No way!" (laughter) She is so wonderful! She's a Grace Kelly blonde, and she's a virgin, but she pretends like she's very knowledgeable, a woman of the world, and the funniest part of this book is she has two Scottie dogs. She lives with her parents in England, and they have a place in Scotland, and the dogs are called Alex and Hamish. And so at one point, she's desperate because he's like, "Oh, come on, go to bed with me, whatever." And she's like, "No, no, you're too tame for me. I'm used to two men at a time." And he goes, "Who are these men?" And she says, "Oh, my good friends, Alex and Hamish." And so he's like, "My God! And you won't sleep with me. You think I'm depraved and you're doing that." And so at one point, he's trying to track her down and he gets her mother on the phone, and her mother goes, "Yes." And she's a very nice British lady and blah, blah, blah. And he goes, "Do you approve of what your daughter is doing with Alex and Hamish?" The mother's kind of nonplussed and she says, "Well, I don't see why not. It's excellent exercise." (laughter) I mean you're peeing in pants laughing at this book. So that's a great one. And then the other one, that everyone loved back in the day, was A Candlelight Ecstasy called Video Vixen, and it was by Elaine Raco Chase, and she basically wrote Susan Lucci as a romance character. And this was back Ecstasy, like in the '70s, early '80s, maybe '82 or something. This guy's coming to interview everyone on the soap opera, and they're like, "Vicki, you have to be the one. I mean, you live in a barn in Vermont, you can fruit, you quilt. You're totally like, you have no stains in your past." And one of them was a heroin addict. One of them was an alcoholic.

Sarah MacLean 1:11:05 / #
It had to be Vivian Stephens' day.

Elda Minger 1:11:05 / #
Oh my God, I think it was.

Sarah MacLean 1:11:08 / #
I mean it had to be. You can really tell which books are hers.

Elda Minger 1:11:13 / #
Yes. She always goes further and it is one of the funniest damn books I have ever read. I re-read it like every two years, and then I love Lynne Graham. I love Betty Neels. And I know people think like, "Oh my God," you know, but I had a serious lung problem, and I found it very comforting to read romances where the hero was a doctor. I just love them, you know, so, but I will read Presents to the day I die. I love a good historical. I love Johanna Lindsey. I was brokenhearted, to hear she passed. And I'm so glad you guys are doing this, because my, the generation ahead of me, it's like the generation that's like five to ten years older than me, they are starting to go. And these days anybody can go, you know, I mean, age is not really, a you know, determinable.

Sarah MacLean 1:11:13 / #
We've lost the original Avon ladies, right? There's Bertrice Small and Joanna Lindsey and Rosemary Rogers.

Elda Minger 1:12:04 / #
Yeah.

Sarah MacLean 1:12:04 / #
I mean, they're not here anymore.

Jennifer Prokop 1:12:07 / #
Carolyn Nichols is not, right? There's people that we would have, I mean, Loveswept was like my line, and when I think about it, it would have been amazing to talk to her, so -

Elda Minger 1:12:19 / #
She was amazing. They were brilliant and they were tough. They had to be tough to survive in the world they were in. And oh, oh, there was something, I read an article about Vivian that was amazing. And she said she prepared the whole thing about this romance novel, and because Monday they'd have the book buying meetings, you know, and they'd say, "I'd like to buy this book. This is one I think would work." And so she did a whole big preparation, and she talked about the book and the guy interrupted her and said, "It's a romance. Just buy it." And I just thought, "Oh my God." I mean we thought we were up against stuff, you know, and I find the disparaging romance to be really, first of all people are stupid, because I always say, "Have you read one? Which one did you dislike?" And they go, "No, I've never read one. But I know they're stupid." And I'm like, "Oh, that's a brilliant informed opinion for you, you know." But when I find it coming from other women, that's when I really find it kind of disgusting, and especially sometimes other romance writers who somehow feel their books are better than say, a Harlequin Presents or a, you know, a category romance. So it's just, I think it's lessening though because you did ask me, "What do you think is happening in romance these days?" Nobody can deny that it's Amazon's number one best selling category. Nobody can deny that it's still making money and nobody can deny that it's still reaching women, and even back when I worked at Kroch's and Brentano's, they said 84% of the fiction was bought by women. And the funniest thing, I'll end with this because I can't keep you guys going forever, but I love this, I was at the Santa Barbara Writers Conference and I can't remember the guy who said this, but it was, he'd had a couple of drinks and we were all shooting the shit after dinner, and he goes, "Goddamn women getting into mystery, now we have to do fucking character." And I thought, "I've got to remember that verbatim." Because I mean, think about a lot of the hard-boiled stuff, it was good, but it wasn't real in-depth character. I never forgot that. "Goddamn women getting into mystery, now we have to do fucking character."

Sarah MacLean 1:14:25 / #
(laughter) I love that so much!

Elda Minger 1:14:28 / #
That just made me laugh. I mean I had to run to the bathroom and I always carry, oh, one thing for writers, always carry a notebook or have your phone, your memo pad ready. I would run in the bathroom, in the day it was like a little spiral bound two by three with a little Bic pen. And I would write down, "Goddamn women, now we have to do fucking character." (laughter) Yeah. That is too damn funny!

Sarah MacLean 1:14:48 / #
And perfect.

Elda Minger 1:14:49 / #
And they were pissed. He was truly pissed like, "Now it's a lot of work. Now we just can't smash it out. Now it's a lot of work." And I thought, "Oh please, you know." So. Anyway, this has just been a joy. Thank you so much.

Sarah MacLean 1:15:01 / #
Elda, thank you for coming.

Jennifer Prokop 1:15:02 / #
It's been amazing.

Sarah MacLean 1:15:06 / #
Man! Every one. Every one of them. It's like, I never know what to expect, and then, boom!

Jennifer Prokop 1:15:16 / #
I need you to say the story about how we got Elda.

Sarah MacLean 1:15:18 / #
So we heard about Elda Minger back in the day, when we did our bodily autonomy episode, we started to get really interested - we'll put links in show notes. We just re-ran it recently, but it's worth re-running it every time we're talking about abortion in the world. But when we did that episode, we were really interested in how contraception worked on page for romance novels, and Elda came up as the author of Untamed Heart and Untamed Heart came up as the first, which now in hindsight, and I mentioned this in the podcast in the conversation with Elda, but it makes sense that Vivian Stephens was a part of this book, right?

Jennifer Prokop 1:16:08 / #
Of course.

Sarah MacLean 1:16:09 / #
It really does start to feel like you can pick a Vivian Stephens book out of a lineup at this point,

Jennifer Prokop 1:16:17 / #
Someone's taking risks and someone's doing something interesting, and it was really amazing to hear Elda talk about how she felt trusted by Vivian.

Sarah MacLean 1:16:25 / #
A huge piece of that relationship of the editor/author relationship is about trust, and clearly that's what's happening here.

Jennifer Prokop 1:16:32 / #
What happened at that episode is that Steve Ammidown, who was still with Browne Popular Culture Library, ran actually, I think took some screenshots of the page with the scene, I believe they're in a Twitter feed, an old Twitter feed, and also pulled for us the RWA column that she wrote, sort of talking about why it was important to have condoms on page in romance. So that was kind of when she came on our radar. It was in that episode, but we also, then, actually could look at some of that documentation.

Sarah MacLean 1:17:06 / #
Right. And I would say at that point, I hadn't read Untamed Heart, but now that I've read Untamed Heart, it's so much more beautiful and romantic as I said in the episode, than a screenshot could possibly articulate. So but that said, so we knew, I mean, I don't know what, months ago I texted you and I was like, "We should get Elda Minger." And we have sent that text to each other many, many times, "We should get this person." And it's not always like we then immediately go get those people, because in this case, she was not easy to find. She does not have an easily accessible email address. I started, I asked around, I posted it to the Avon author group chat, "Is there? Does anybody know?" I went to Tessa Dare and I was like, "You're in Orange County. I'm told Elda Minger is in Orange County. Do you know how to find her?" And everybody kind of passed, people were super helpful but I got passed around and around and around, and no Elda. And then I (laughs) -

Jennifer Prokop 1:18:18 / #
I believe you Googled it.

Sarah MacLean 1:18:20 / #
I stalked her a little bit. I got online, and I Googled her, and I was like, well, if this is her real name and there is an Elda Minger in Orange County, California, lo and behold, and I wrote her a letter.

Jennifer Prokop 1:18:34 / #
A letter. Sarah showed it to me.

Sarah MacLean 1:18:37 / #
Jen was like, "What?" (laughter)

Jennifer Prokop 1:18:39 / #
I was like, "Oh, okay, we're doing that now." And it feels like a message in a bottle at this point.

Sarah MacLean 1:18:46 / #
I wrote her, I put a stamp on a fucking envelope, and I used the United States Postal Service.

Jennifer Prokop 1:18:50 / #
You did. Also everybody, it was a dark envelope with a silver sharpie, it was very nice looking. It was, anyone would want to open this letter.

Sarah MacLean 1:18:57 / #
Because I was like, "It can't just be a random, she's going to think it's junk mail." So I actually will tell you now, I'm going to show you, I bought a bunch of colored envelopes for this project, because I was like, if we have to do it again, I've gotta up my game on mail. So I sent her a fucking letter, you guys, in the mail, and that woman, that wonderful, magnificent woman who you all just met, texted me and was like, "Hey, Sarah. I'm Elda Minger.

Jennifer Prokop 1:19:30 / #
"I got your letter."

Sarah MacLean 1:19:31 / #
Yeah. "I'm a romance novelist. I got your letter. I would love to do the podcast." So here we are. So thank you postal service.

Jennifer Prokop 1:19:42 / #
We're the only people thanking the postal service right now but -

Sarah MacLean 1:19:45 / #
For this killer conversation. When she talked about women and reproductive rights, and why contraception is so critical on the page, I mean, it just, we are we are recording this, everyone, on the first day of the Supreme Court hearings on the Mississippi abortion law. And I mean, I just felt like this is what -

Jennifer Prokop 1:20:02 / #
It was a devastating day.

Sarah MacLean 1:20:15 / #
I needed to hear this woman talk about this work. My god, she was amazing. She had so many amazing stories.

Jennifer Prokop 1:20:24 / #
One of the things we like to do is sort of, what stuck with you from that conversation? Maybe it'll change over time, but at the beginning, kind of just as we were starting, one of the things she said is that she had gone back and was taking notes for herself, and how much joy it brought her to just remember. And I really was so moved by that because that is, romance and joy are synonymous for me. And so you know, to have someone who has loved romance for 50 years, and can, you know, tell stories about women buying Shanna in the bookstore? And I mean, I have goosebumps because I'm just so moved to hear that, and and also I think for me, her read of those books in in the context of her time.

Sarah MacLean 1:21:21 / #
Yes, which is so important, because we've talked about that, but what do we know? I mean, when you hear the voice from somebody who was there and who experienced it. I mean that Shanna story blows my mind, not because, I mean, of course if I thought about it, maybe I would have come up with it on my own, but I've never heard that perspective from a bookseller. What a cool experience to hear that! Can we also, Jen, I was so happy for you, in this moment, because when she was talking about jobs, the letter she got from the girl who had never thought that she could work with wild animals. I had a moment of a light bulb going on, because we, you have talked for so many seasons about these books and how these women have these magnificent jobs, these weird, curious, quirky, cool jobs. And we've talked about why that is and what is it about these books? And what is it about why these jobs? And of course, it made so much sense, again, like it just fit together.

Jennifer Prokop 1:22:31 / #
This was formative for me, that women had fascinating, interesting jobs in romance when I was coming up as a romance reader. And yet now, I'm also famous for being the person who's like fossils, jobs are fossils. I don't want to hear about it. I don't want to hear, you know, and it's different. And I think the thing that I have really come to, and the thing I think I'm sort of struggling with, is I feel like when we talk about jobs then, it really felt like these were books that really taught me I could do anything. I mean, you know what else I was thinking, Sarah, when she was talking about how he protected her, and how that was deeply romantic? That is the exact thing that you and I talked about when we did our, when we did that first episode, about tinctures, tonics and teas, and I was talking about a Melanie Greene book where he goes out to get her Plan B and I was like, "This is what caring looks like."

Sarah MacLean 1:23:33 / #
Yep.

Jennifer Prokop 1:23:34 / #
This -

Sarah MacLean 1:23:34 / #
Yes.

Jennifer Prokop 1:23:34 / #
It was deeply romantic to me and to that same feeling from a book that she read or wrote, you know, 45 years ago? Amazing.

Sarah MacLean 1:23:49 / #
Yeah. I mean, I think it's really fascinating. I I want to go back now and read all my favorite contemporaries and pay close, I can't imagine, I don't think I will ever in my life read a contemporary again and not pause for just a heartbeat on that contraception moment and think, "Who is taking care of whom here?" Because for me, her saying that was revolutionary. Like, that is exactly what I want from that moment. And she's so, I mean, Vivian Stephens was right. She can write, right? Because that moment on the page in Untamed Heart, and I'm so glad she's going to release them and ebook and we will, of course, explode all over everything when she does, so that you all know that you can run and buy it. But that moment in Untamed Heart feels like caretaking in a way that, I mean, it's perfect. And now I just want, so if you're out there writing a contemporary right now, think about that. Ask yourself that, in that moment, who is caring for whom? She was great! I would, she should just, her, Vincent Virga, let's just have a party!

Jennifer Prokop 1:25:06 / #
I right now am like, "Let's book our flights to Orange County." We'll crash at Lauren's house. She won't stop us and we'll just go kidnap Elda Minger!

Sarah MacLean 1:25:18 / #
No! Lauren and Christina will come with us.

Jennifer Prokop 1:25:20 / #
Oh my god. And I just want to talk about, I mean, I'm sure we've said this on the podcast before, but when Sarah and I first started kind of being friends on Twitter DM's, there was a point at which one of us said to the other, "All I want to do is talk about romance all day." And the other one of us was like, "Me too." And that is still like, that's what Fated Mates is for me, but also to hear, god, it feels like I climbed up a mountain and sat down at the foot of my elder and heard these amazing words and I just feel so inspired and I just love romance so much!

Sarah MacLean 1:26:04 / #
God, I'm going to go read Velvet Flame right the fuck now. We should do a read-along.

Jennifer Prokop 1:26:12 / #
I just ordered mine from Thriftbooks.

Sarah MacLean 1:26:15 / #
Oh, look at you!

Jennifer Prokop 1:26:16 / #
Because you know, I've got to get there before all the -

Sarah MacLean 1:26:19 / #
Did you find an original? Do you find a first?

Jennifer Prokop 1:26:20 / #
You never know, right, with Thriftbooks. You just never know what you're going to get.

Sarah MacLean 1:26:23 / #
Well, now I've got to go and do that.

Jennifer Prokop 1:26:25 / #
Well, and I didn't have a copy of Untamed Heart. I was buying Harlequin American Romances off of eBay, and I did get a couple of Elda Minger books. One where I think a cat goes missing and they go find it, and then another of her early, earlier Harlequin American Romances.

Sarah MacLean 1:26:42 / #
Well, Jennifer, don't count your chickens before they hatch in the month of December, is what I will say to you saying I don't have a copy of Untamed Heart.

Jennifer Prokop 1:26:54 / #
You know what else I'm about to do, Sarah, is I, okay, this is another thing everybody. I ordered 160 copies of Romantic Times from 1991 all the way to 2008. Sarah is going to get a couple years as her Christmas present. I spoiled it already. And I feel like now I'm going to go back and look through, especially in the '90s. Elda was still writing. So now I feel like when we do these episodes, I can go back and be like, "What was in RT about these authors?" It's going to be interesting.

Sarah MacLean 1:27:24 / #
Eric will love that. Take good photographs, because his whole thing now is that anytime I get a book, thanks Rebecca Romney, but anytime I get one of the books that I've been ordering, after all the Trailblazer episodes, he takes a high resolution photograph and puts it online.

Jennifer Prokop 1:27:42 / #
Yes!

Sarah MacLean 1:27:42 / #
So make sure you take good photographs of the review and stuff and we'll do that too.

Jennifer Prokop 1:27:47 / #
Amazing.

Sarah MacLean 1:27:48 / #
We're doing what we can, Steve and Rebecca. (laughter) We're out here.

Jennifer Prokop 1:27:54 / #
I, you know what, this was an amazing conversation. I could've listened to her, she kept apologizing and I was like, "No. Keep going."

Sarah MacLean 1:28:02 / #
No, she can keep going anytime. Anyway, yeah, let's all, when we go to Lauren's house we're -

Jennifer Prokop 1:28:09 / #
Oh, it's happening.

Sarah MacLean 1:28:09 / #
We're taking Elda out on the town.

Jennifer Prokop 1:28:11 / #
I'm clearing a whole day. We're going to start at brunch, just have it all 12 hours of Elda.

Sarah MacLean 1:28:16 / #
Exactly! Friend, I love you! I know that you're tired, so I'm going to let you go, but, everyone, you're listening to Fated Mates. These are the Trailblazer episodes. We are so incredibly proud to be able to bring them to you. We are so grateful to Elda for sharing her story. You can find us at Fatedmates.net, on Twitter @FatedMates, on Instagram @fatedmatespod. If you are listening to these episodes and enjoying them as much as we hope you are, as much as we're enjoying them, please let us know in all those places. Tell us who you wish we would talk to. We said we would only do a season of these but -

Jennifer Prokop 1:28:58 / #
They're going to be forever.

Sarah MacLean 1:29:00 / #
I think we're just going to do this forever. And next week we are, is it Caressed by Ice? Are we Caressed by Ice next week?

Jennifer Prokop 1:29:08 / #
Correct. We sure are.

Sarah MacLean 1:29:09 / #
Alright. So get reading. That's Nalini Singh. Do you have to read the first books in those Psy-Changeling series to get it?

Jennifer Prokop 1:29:15 / #
I mean, I don't think so. I think you'll be okay. There's a little gloss at the beginning that she gives, it's kind of, I think, what's going on. So unless you're a real completist, I feel like you should probably be able to just dive right into Caressed by Ice. I believe in you all. I believe in you. Elda believes in us, and I believe in you too.

Sarah MacLean 1:29:36 / #
Very exciting. All right. Thank you, everyone. Have a great week!

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full-length episode, guest host, S02 - Interstitials, interstitial Jennifer Prokop full-length episode, guest host, S02 - Interstitials, interstitial Jennifer Prokop

S02.44: Freewheeling with Kennedy Ryan

We’re so excited to have Kennedy Ryan with us this week — someone who was blooded not once, but twice by old school historicals! Listen to us talk powerful heroines, her brilliant Queen Move, how so much romance is political and why those old romances are still worth reading — problematic and all.

Summer is here, and next week is the final episode of Season Two, with a few others to come while we take a few weeks off. To read romance novels. Obviously. Season Three begins in August!

While we’re apart, if you are up for leaving a rating or review for the podcast on your podcasting app, we would be very grateful!

Oh, and did you know Sarah had a book out last week? Daring & the Duke is officially here! Get it at Amazon, Kobo, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Books-a-Million or from your local indie, or order it signed from the wonderful independent bookstore, Savoy Bookshop in RI, where she is for the. month of July!

Show Notes

TRANSCRIPT

Sarah MacLean 0:00 / #
Well, we're almost done with the season but we have saved the best for last Jen.

Jennifer Prokop 0:06 / #
If I could break out into song right now and not scare people away. Maybe I would

Kennedy Ryan 0:13 / #
seriously

Sarah MacLean 0:15 / #
That is the dulcet, melodic, I would think probably tone of Kennedy Ryan one of our very favorites. Welcome Kennedy.

Kennedy Ryan 0:24 / #
Oh my gosh, you guys are my very favorites. I'm always pushing your podcast down people's throats.

Sarah MacLean 0:31 / #
That's what we like to hear.

Jennifer Prokop 0:32 / #
Yes it is.

Sarah MacLean 0:32 / #
T o hear about people just violently requiring people to listen to us.

Kennedy Ryan 0:36 / #
All the time. I was just screenshotting the one you guys did about old school romance. The one you did not too long ago, the Judith McNaught episode, I was shoving down every throat I could find last week so, I'm your pusher.

Sarah MacLean 0:51 / #
I like it. We're here for it. Welcome everybody to Fated Mates. We are really, really excited this week. I didn't know this. I feel Kennedy, you and I, we have just sort of unpacked our friendship to a new level. I had no idea you were such a fan of old school romances.

Kennedy Ryan 1:15 / #
Oh my gosh, yeah, I definitely am. A lot of times people will bring up some of the new stuff. And I'm like, Oh, I haven't read that yet. Sierra Simone and I have a joke because she's like, "how have you read all the old stuff? And there's all this great new stuff you haven't gotten to yet". I just keep rereading the old stuff it's so good. I'm that chick.

Jennifer Prokop 1:40 / #
I'm rereading a lot in these pandemic days. I really am.

Kennedy Ryan 1:44 / #
I have books that are annual rereads for me. Books that are built into my reading schedule. I have to reread this book, once a year. Certain books like, "Flowers from the Storm", like they're just certain books I have to read at least once a year.

Sarah MacLean 1:58 / #
Well, you are a mega Kinsale Stan

Kennedy Ryan 2:01 / #
Oh gosh yes. Mega, Mega. I tell people if you cut me I'm gonna bleed some Kinsale. I adore her. Everybody who knows me knows that.

Sarah MacLean 2:14 / #
Did you start with Kinsale? That how you came to her?

Kennedy Ryan 2:17 / #
No

Jennifer Prokop 2:17 / #
Yeah. Tell us your romance journey. I feel like we should ask everybody this.

Sarah MacLean 2:23 / #
Are we just diving in.

Jennifer Prokop 2:24 / #
Yes.

Sarah MacLean 2:26 / #
We are. I mean, we'll come back around. We're just roaming.

Kennedy Ryan 2:29 / #
I'm ready, roaming romance. I am ready for it. So I think of myself as twice blooded. I started reading romance, well, for me, it's really young. I was in eighth grade. And you have to understand my parents are pastors. So they, they were very careful about what I listened to, what I saw on television, what I read was very much curated in our house. When I was in the eighth grade, one of my friends handed me "A Pirate to Love". I think it was "A Pirate to Love". No, it was "The Wolf and the Dove". And it was this old battered copy. Because I'm, I think I'm older than both of you. This was like, gosh, it was like the late 80s. When I was in the eighth grade because I yeah, I'm 47 so

Jennifer Prokop 3:22 / #
I'm almost 47 so we're very close.

Kennedy Ryan 3:25 / #
I still got you Jen. I still got you.

Sarah MacLean 3:28 / #
I'm so young.

Jennifer Prokop 3:30 / #
It's nice not to be the old lady on the podcast. I guess.

Kennedy Ryan 3:33 / #
I will gladly take the honor of old lady. So I was in the eighth grade. And, you know, I mean, romance was pretty, I mean, as we know it as a genre still really developing. Um, and so she gave me this tattered paperback of "The Wolf and the Dove". Of course, that's what it was. And I just consumed it.

Sarah MacLean 3:57 / #
Yeah,

Kennedy Ryan 3:58 / #
Still Sarah and I talk about it, I think because that was my first romance, medieval still holds a really special place in my heart.

Sarah MacLean 4:06 / #
Well, I mean, we've talked about this. All of us have talked about this. And certainly we've talked about it on the pod. But the these early books like blooded twice, I can't wait to hear who the second blooding is. But blooding twice is really interesting because those early books, I really think they install your buttons, your, you know, Primal sex buttons.

Jennifer Prokop 4:26 / #
I was gonna say plot buttons, but ok.

Sarah MacLean 4:32 / #
Both. Both.

Kennedy Ryan 4:34 / #
Yeah. And I mean, at the time, you know, you're I was in the eighth grade and I had no idea well, this book's kind of rapey or I had no concept of that. It was just like, I'm enjoying this, you know, it was just it was very sensory. I enjoyed the pull. You know, I was reading, you know, Wuthering Heights, or whatever. You know, "Beloved", I was reading literary fiction or whatever they were feeding you in school? And something that was completely pleasure. And also for me, because I was young and I was such a late bloomer, like, don't even ask me when I had my first kiss. It was like 11th grade. For me, it was just all fascinating, honestly, and to see a relationship that way. And there was history, you know, I did, I hadn't known much about the Normans. And, you know, these marriages being, you know, arranged by this king, you know, I didn't know a lot of those things. So I was actually learning those things as I was reading.

Sarah MacLean 5:36 / #
You know, that's one thing that we never talked about is the amount of learning that goes on for romance readers, especially when we're young. I mean, I always joke that like, my SAT scores were really great and verbal and really terrible in math. And the reason why they were great and verbal is because of romance novels, because I knew all the words.

Kennedy Ryan 5:55 / #
Absolutely. And my father, he was the Dean of Students. He's in higher education. And he would, when I was growing up, he would assign, this is gonna sound crazy, he would assign me letters of the dictionary. And I would just read the dictionary and he would come home and he would quiz me on "N", you know, and we would go back and forth until we could stump each other on an "N" word. Oh that sounded bad, bad choice of letters. But you know, and he would say, okay, when you're reading every time you come across a word that you don't know, write it down. And then over the next week, make sure you use it in a sentence.

Sarah MacLean 6:31 / #
You know, what I'm going to start using this for the summer with my daughter, this is such a good idea.

Kennedy Ryan 6:36 / #
It's amazing. And so my dad, that's what he would say, every time you're reading, you come across a word you don't know, write it down, look it up. You try to use it within a week so that it can become a part of your vocabulary. So I was doing that before. Then I started reading romance, you know that. You know,

Sarah MacLean 6:56 / #
You had all different words.

Kennedy Ryan 6:57 / #
All different words. Here's the thing you guys. I didn't know at first to keep it from my parents. I'm walking around, you know, I'm walking around. My mom is like, what is that? And she wanted to take it from me. And so I started smuggling romance novels into my house. I had them stuffed under my mattress, I would go to the library, and I would come out with like, my respectable books, and I would pack my back pack full of all of my, this is what I mean by twice blooded, because when I first came into romance, it was Joanna Lindsey, it was Kathleen Woodiwiss, and then I got into category. So it was Charlotte Lamb. It was Carol Mortimer, it was Robyn Donald, all those one name books by Carol Mortimer, like "Frustration". You're like, I have no idea what that means but I've got to read it. So my bag would be stuffed with all of my romance novels, and I would carry into the house all of my respectable ones. And then I would stuff them into the back of my closet and in my mattresses.

Sarah MacLean 8:02 / #
Oh my god, you turn to a life of crime.

Kennedy Ryan 8:04 / #
I actually did. I turned to a life of crime just to get my kicks.

Sarah MacLean 8:09 / #
The pastor's daughter. It's all there.

Jennifer Prokop 8:12 / #
I'm just like, podcast over.

Kennedy Ryan 8:17 / #
It was awful. It was awful. It was a secret life.

Sarah MacLean 8:20 / #
It was amazing. But you know what, so many of us did that. I don't know if I've ever told this story on the podcast. I've certainly told it in interviews, but I when, you know, when I was young, when I was in middle school, the library was across the Middle School parking lot. And you know, I would go there after school and they kept the romance novels literally in the dark. The lights were turned off in the aisles where they kept romances and I was like, well, this is clearly for me. And I like lurked in the darkness reading, you know, furtively any book that had Fabio on the cover and the reality is its like we are trained from, you know, infancy in romance to hide the reading.

Jennifer Prokop 9:06 / #
Yes. Can I tell you I think we've all had that, that experience. And so the thing that, like hurts me is when fellow romance readers talk about their kids wanting to read romance and them not letting them. And I'm just like

Sarah MacLean 9:22 / #
It's hard.

Jennifer Prokop 9:23 / #
But why? Don't you remember what that was like? Why are you doing that? It's really hard for me and I just keep my mouth shut. I leave romances all over my house. And you all know my extreme effin disappointment that my son cannot be bothered to read them. I'm just like, Oh, my God. I'm always like, Don't you want to take these to your friends?

Kennedy Ryan 9:48 / #
He's like, sure, mom.

Sarah MacLean 9:51 / #
Some day, I hope to have Tessa Dare on the podcast, but one of my favorite Tessa stories, she has a teenage daughter, but right when that you know, 12 or 13, that sort of sweet spot of when you find out that sex exists and you're like, "what is this about"? She got a call, I think from a mom at her school, who was like, all the kids are passing around your books, because they're reading and they're reading all the salaciousness. And Tessa's like, well, I don't know what to say about that. Like, I'm not gonna tell you that it's not a good, like, ultimately, wouldn't you like your kids to know that when they have sex, they should be having it in a thoughtful way with people who care about their pleasure and care about them. Right, and it's a tricky thing. I mean, I get it, I get the hesitance. But yeah, I mean, I can remember just sort of skipping over sex scenes for a long time because I just didn't, yeah, get it. So I mean, especially in those early

Jennifer Prokop 10:59 / #
The year of the euphemism.

Sarah MacLean 11:01 / #
What on earth is going on?

Jennifer Prokop 11:04 / #
What's a velvet cave?

Kennedy Ryan 11:10 / #
What is the member?

Sarah MacLean 11:14 / #
Exactly, like you know it's something is going on.

Jennifer Prokop 11:17 / #
Is this a club that can be joined?

Kennedy Ryan 11:19 / #
I'm still stuck on the velvet cave. Its not so warm.

Jennifer Prokop 11:26 / #
You know satellite radio brings a lot of like, when we used to drive you know back before pandemic times, and had to go places, I heard the song by Sheena Easton and I really remember liking as a kid of sugar walls and almost drove off the road at how filthy it is.

Kennedy Ryan 11:50 / #
Oh, yes.

Sarah MacLean 11:51 / #
Oh, well, I mean, can we talk about Prince?

Jennifer Prokop 11:53 / #
I'm gonna say Prince wrote that right?

Kennedy Ryan 11:55 / #
Oh god.

Sarah MacLean 11:56 / #
Well, yeah. Sheena Easton. So here's my here's a fun fact. And surely this is about to become the musical theme of this episode. One of Eric's like very favorite things is to like drop Prince protege names just in conversation. Yeah and I so I know Yeah, Sheena Easton was a prince protege and he probably wrote that song for her.

Kennedy Ryan 12:15 / #
I'm pretty sure.

Jennifer Prokop 12:17 / #
He wrote all of those sex euphemisms songs.

Kennedy Ryan 12:20 / #
Darling Nikki.

Sarah MacLean 12:27 / #
Oh my boy. I mean,

Kennedy Ryan 12:32 / #
I think Vanity was one of his protege. All of them and my husband had all of them on his wall growing up, he actually saw Prince like in the bathtub before Prince, you know, stopped doing his nasty stuff live. We got a whole, he calls a door, he calls it a hymn. He refers to a door as our hymn. The full extended version now.

Jennifer Prokop 13:16 / #
You guys just this morning Charis Hodges on Twitter posted the most amazing tweet it says, "I was today years old when I found out that Prince stole Rick James's woman and turned her into Vanity". Prince a hero in every way.

Kennedy Ryan 13:35 / #
He rest in purple.

Sarah MacLean 13:39 / #
Kennedy, you just became Eric our producers favorite romance novelist. Yeah. Period. Hands down. You're gonna have to come back again and again.

Kennedy Ryan 13:50 / #
No effort.

Sarah MacLean 13:51 / #
You said vanity. Oh was a prince protege. And now that's it. You're his favorite.

Kennedy Ryan 13:56 / #
I will not be dethroned. I will figure out how to stay at that top spot.

Jennifer Prokop 14:01 / #
There's no one else. We've never met someone who knew so much obscure Prince trivia. To all of our listeners out there, when the world gets back to normal if you're ever in Minneapolis, please go visit, his studio is now like a tour you can go on and we went as a family and it was honestly one of the best like touristy things we've ever done. It was awesome.

Kennedy Ryan 14:30 / #
I would just die. And you know his family has given Ava DuVernay who I mean I have to genuflect when I say her name because she's a goddess. But the family has given her access to like his full catalogue, like hundreds of songs he never published. And she's working on something about his life. Ava and Prince together. Shut the house down.

Sarah MacLean 14:53 / #
Well, so euphemisms, sex euphemism.

Kennedy Ryan 14:56 / #
Yeah, Like the velvet cave, which sounds very woman.

Sarah MacLean 15:00 / #
Similar to Prince, these early sex scenes, that you might not understand exactly what's going on but you definitely know it's dirty.

Kennedy Ryan 15:08 / #
Yes, yes.

Sarah MacLean 15:11 / #
Yeah, okay, so we have Woodiwiss, you are like blooded by the original.

Kennedy Ryan 15:19 / #
Yeah, I mean

Sarah MacLean 15:20 / #
You're like the most powerful vampire.

Kennedy Ryan 15:22 / #
I a m an original. It was, Woodiwiss, you know, if you've ever read "The Wolf and The Dove" like, it does, it has the rapey overtones because, in the beginning, I was about to say I don't want to spoil "The Wolf and The Dove", I mean come on now.

Sarah MacLean 15:45 / #
It's 50 years old I think its ok.

Kennedy Ryan 15:50 / #
You know, when it first starts she does a great job of, redirecting you, misdirecting you for the entire novel, you know, so you think that I hate that I still know these names. You think that Ragnar has raped her? But he hasn't, you know and then so he hasn't raped her, her mother intervened and put some blood on, you know her kirtle.

Sarah MacLean 16:15 / #
Oh, famous blood. All the blood scenes.

Blood on the kirtle trick was and this wolf God doesn't actually rape her, he instead chained her to the foot of his bed and wants everyone else to think that he's raping her. Because he has his machismo that he has to maintain, but he doesn't actually rape her. And when they come together, member to velvet cave, it's painful and we think it's painful because, hey, she's only had sex one time and Wulfgar is hulking with a huge member, but it's really because she's an actual virgin and she wasn't raped.

And everyone knows sex is never painful after the first time. And the first time you bleed, like a gallon of blood.

Kennedy Ryan 17:03 / #
You have to, even though we dont have to display the sheets anymore. It still gushes from your body.

Jennifer Prokop 17:10 / #
I will say I remember a lot of those old historicals where like people displayed the sheets. I will say there's like, there's like installing your buttons. And then there's like, the anti buttons, whatever you read, and I remember like as a teenager reading those scenes and being like, listen, what the fuck this is not ok.

Kennedy Ryan 17:31 / #
Never okay.

Sarah MacLean 17:34 / #
So yeah, but also there's something. It goes back to we've talked about this, whenever we talk about medievals, right, and then being them sort of having that kind of over the top. Wild bananas storyline. And the reality is, is like something about that is really primal for so many of us. And there's something, but again it sort of strips away all the trappings of gentility and hands you a hero who is just raw patriarchy and has to be just destroyed. And you're what, tell everybody what you're reading right now?

Kennedy Ryan 18:17 / #
Well, I'm usually I'm usually so I have come to a place where my life is just really really hectic and most of the books I consume are through audio. So I'm listening to "Forbidden" by Beverly Jenkins.

Jennifer Prokop 18:31 / #
God one of my favorites.

Kennedy Ryan 18:32 / #
I just finished on audio. I'm just telling people because it's spectacular. It's not even historical. I just finished "Beach Read" on audio, which is fantastic.

Sarah MacLean 18:44 / #
I love that book, I really did. Jen hasn't read it but its so good.

Kennedy Ryan 18:48 / #
It's so good. Jen. The writing like sparkles. Anyway, it sparkles. But I everybody who knows me knows that like historical romance is kind of it's like my favorite. And I have all the Kinsale, all they can sell on audio. Certain books they're so old you can't even get them in audio and I love a lot of those, like "Magnificent Rose".

Sarah MacLean 19:16 / #
Iris Johansen.

Kennedy Ryan 19:17 / #
Iris Johansen and you know what's so funny is I caught I said that I was twice blooded. Like when I was first blooded. I only read romance from the eighth grade until my senior year in high school. So I like five years of romance and a lot of that was category and I didn't know

Sarah MacLean 19:32 / #
Wait, so you stopped reading romance, cold turkey?

Kennedy Ryan 19:37 / #
You know, it's like, I know I went into college and I stopped reading romance and I just I don't know if it was because I was adjusting to so many things and there was so much to read and there was so much to do, but I just lost it. You know, when I started reading other things and doing other things and I just kind of lost romance for a really long time. I didn't pick romance back up until I was close to 40 years old. I had, my son has autism, and I had started a foundation for families who have children with autism. And I was running that foundation. And I was of course, raising a child with special needs. And I was advocating for other families. My whole life, like, it was autism and everything I read, everything I consumed was around special needs and waivers. I was drowning honestly. And I needed something for myself, I needed an escape. I needed something that just was purely pleasure for me. And I just remembered how much I loved romance. And I just picked up, I started going to the library again like just on my own picking up some of the things that I loved before, but I don't even remember, Kinsale I don't even think was in the mix. When I was blooded the first time, when I was first blooded I think Iris Johansen was I don't know if you guys remember she used to write for like Silhouette, some category romance.

Jennifer Prokop 21:01 / #
She wrote for Love Swept. They were so good.

Sarah MacLean 21:05 / #
They were so good.

Kennedy Ryan 21:07 / #
And some of the plots were like whoa, like over the top. I'm trying to think of this one it had like magical realism, I cannot remember the name of it. But she was like a, not a sorceress, but it's just it's some I was like

Jennifer Prokop 21:22 / #
I bet it was, "This Fear Splendor".

Kennedy Ryan 21:24 / #
I bet it was, "This Fear Splendor".

Jennifer Prokop 21:27 / #
And the reason I know that is because that's the one where they have sex on the horse and she's some sort of magical like Jensen expert, an expert I yeah, there was like a whole like kind of series where it was like her and Fayrene Preston and Kay Hooper.

Kennedy Ryan 21:45 / #
Kay Hooper, oh my gosh. When you said Kay Hooper and I remembered.

Jennifer Prokop 21:49 / #
And they would write like the three of them would write these trilogies where they each took one person and they would all come out and they did like the Delaneys which I think is what the but yeah, it was a lot.

Kennedy Ryan 22:04 / #
It was a lot right and so I remember that and so I remembered I liked Iris Johansen and I picked up in this whole reblooding, my second blooding, Kinsale was out and Iris Johansen had written the, "Magnificent Rogue". And that's the one I started rereading. And it is fantastic.

Sarah MacLean 22:27 / #
Also medieval.

Kennedy Ryan 22:29 / #
Again, also a medieval. It's and just to give you for anybody, and also I pride myself on kind of obscure historical romances that went, because it's like my secret pride when people ask for my favorite and I say something like, and some people will know these like "Night in Eden" by Candace Proctor.

Sarah MacLean 22:50 / #
Oh, I don't know that one.

Kennedy Ryan 22:55 / #
You guys, okay.

Sarah MacLean 22:56 / #
I'm reading it right now.

Kennedy Ryan 22:57 / #
Do you know Penelope Williamson?

Sarah MacLean 22:59 / #
Yes. Of course.

Kennedy Ryan 23:01 / #
Okay, so Penelope Williamson.

Sarah MacLean 23:02 / #
Wait, first repeat the other one. Now I got a pen cap in my mouth.

Kennedy Ryan 23:06 / #
I'm gonna start with who have the you know, Penelope Williamson, right. So I read some of hers like she wrote. "Wild Yearning". She wrote, she has a medieval that I love and I can't read the name right off the top, but I will anyway so you know, Penelope Williams, Candace Proctor is her sister.

Sarah MacLean 23:24 / #
What's what?

Kennedy Ryan 23:26 / #
When I found that out my mom was completely blown. And one of my favorite novels is "Night in Eden", and this is written like in '95 '97. And it reminds me and you know, everything in that that period was Regency or Medieval or you know, it was

Sarah MacLean 23:42 / #
It was really, it was the heyday of Medievals the early 90s. Yeah.

Kennedy Ryan 23:48 / #
So this felt so different because "Night in Eden", is about it's in the 1800s I can't remember where in the 1800s maybe mid

Sarah MacLean 23:59 / #
Who cares, yeah, we did a whole episode where we decided readers don't care.

Kennedy Ryan 24:03 / #
Yeah. But I think if I did Regency era, okay, so, um, she, the heroine kills her husband. She had a baby who died. You guys, this is fantastic because it's not even in England. She starts in England. I think she starts in England. And then she gets shipped to New South Wales as a prisoner like

Jennifer Prokop 24:26 / #
Dang.

Kennedy Ryan 24:27 / #
You don't even understand

Sarah MacLean 24:28 / #
Now, I feel like I do.

Jennifer Prokop 24:29 / #
I feel like, I'm like

Sarah MacLean 24:32 / #
Stick to Australia feels real familiar.

Kennedy Ryan 24:35 / #
So good, you guys. And she becomes an indentured servant. And she her baby. She's pregnant. She has her baby in prison. And then she's on the ship on her way to I don't want to give the whole thing away because a lot of people may have never read this.

Jennifer Prokop 24:48 / #
This is probably the first two chapters, who are we kidding I mean.

Kennedy Ryan 24:50 / #
It's at the beginning. I'm not gonna tell you everything because the plot get bananas. The plot gets bananas. You know, we love bananas, but so she gets on the ship. On her way to New South Wales as an indentured servant. Because she killed her husband. She was it was an accident. But of course but

Sarah MacLean 25:08 / #
But what but he was terrible and deserved it surely.

Kennedy Ryan 25:11 / #
But he was terrible. He was cheating on her. Okay, we'll find that out later, so I dont want to spoil things. Anyway, so her baby dies, her baby dies.

Sarah MacLean 25:21 / #
Candace Proctor just breaking rules.

Kennedy Ryan 25:23 / #
Girl, you just, all the rules this is '97.

Sarah MacLean 25:26 / #
Oh my god, it's not that early. Yeah, like to give everybody a frame of reference the Bridgerton's the following year are gonna be out.

Kennedy Ryan 25:35 / #
Wow, I didn't even make that connection.

Jennifer Prokop 25:37 / #
But I do. I feel like there is and I feel like it's true today too, that they're sort of like always a strain of romance that is doing the most.

Kennedy Ryan 25:48 / #
Yeah, yeah.

Sarah MacLean 25:49 / #
Well, it's real fearlessness.

Kennedy Ryan 25:52 / #
You guys you have no idea. This is so fearless. Because the captain who she's going to go work for, you know, work out her term for, he is of course, gorgeous, but he's just lost his wife. He has a baby. She has to nurse the baby. She nurses his baby you guys. Because shes got her milk.

Jennifer Prokop 26:16 / #
Of course she does.

Sarah MacLean 26:16 / #
It's like that Sandra Brown book. That we talked about. There's a old school Sandra Brown from earlier

Jennifer Prokop 26:22 / #
Where shes the wet nurse. Yeah.

Kennedy Ryan 26:23 / #
Yes wet nurse. Yes. That is the technical term.

Jennifer Prokop 26:30 / #
It's also in Romeo and Juliet isn't the nurse of her. It's her wet nurse.

Sarah MacLean 26:36 / #
It's rich people hired wet nurses back in the day.

Jennifer Prokop 26:42 / #
I hired a wet nurse to it was called Enfamil, god damn, people were like, isn't formula expensive? I was like, I'm gonna send this motherfucker off to college one day. I can afford a can of formula a week my god.

Kennedy Ryan 27:12 / #
I love it. The modern wet nurse. So yeah anyway I won't tell any more but it is fan freaking tastic.

Sarah MacLean 27:16 / #
well I know what I'm reading at the beach next month.

Kennedy Ryan 27:19 / #
God it is so good it has to build that's the other thing is I love the stories that really build and so "Flowers from the Storm" that's why I love Kinsale so much it and a lot of my friends when, I feel like I'm all over the place because you asked what I'm reading now I'm rereading "Magnificent Rogue".

Sarah MacLean 27:34 / #
Right thats what I was angling for. Got a better there's a better story in here. Candace Proctor.

Kennedy Ryan 27:41 / #
Oh gosh, Candace Proctor just nice a "Night in Eden". And so with "Magnificent Rogue". I don't know why I picked it up because I'm listening. I'm listening to "Forbidden" now of course, and I will read things and then listen to them. So I'm listening to that. It's amazing, but I just you know, picked up "Magnificent Rogue" again. And I was like, this is all about women's power, like completely and just to give people a setting it is Medieval. It's asked me to blitz like, well,

Sarah MacLean 28:12 / #
It's Scotland, isn't it?

Kennedy Ryan 28:13 / #
Yes, it is. He's a Highlander. He is a Scottish Earl. And he has an island, Cray coo. I'm not may not be pronouncing that. But he basically bends the knee to nobody. And Queen Elizabeth captures him. And this is before Mary, Mary Queen of Scots is executed. It's like right before she's executed. And it is the the plot is so what is woven so tightly and there's so much I love misdirection. There's so much misdirection, and then he is amazing. Like, he is incredible. He's tall, he has dark hair, he's gorgeous. He's arrogant, but not in like a douchey way in like impotence, you know, kind of way. She wants him, she's fought, she has captured him. She's been trying to capture him for years, been watching him for years and realizes that he's the perfect candidate to do what she needs me to do, which is to marry this young girl who is a royal bastard. We are led to believe and I'm not going to say that it's not because someone might read this. And it's too brilliant for me to give away. Even though it's 30 years old. Anyone who's somebody who's reading it for the first time, and we are, you know, she's the bastard daughter of Mary. And of course, there's all this tension between Mary and Elizabeth. And then James is on the throne in Scotland, like it's all of this royal intrigue. And then there's this girl who is somebodies royal bastard, who has been kept by this evil priest who has been like beating her and who has been feeding her all kinds of religious nonsense for her whole life. And it reminds me of, 0kay, this is what reminds me of McNaught's "Kingdom of Dreams". Wait did I just say that right? Yes. Okay, um, all she wants is home. All she wants is family. She feels like she's been starved for that. And when she sees his clan, because he does have to marry her, he marries her. And

Sarah MacLean 30:17 / #
Isn't it a marriage of, it's they make a deal is not going to be

Kennedy Ryan 30:21 / #
Its a hand fast. That's what they do. So it's short, it's supposed to be short. And the reason he does that is because he recognizes she's a political pawn. And she is, he is all about his Island. You know, he doesn't bend the knee to anybody else. He is like, I'm self contained over here. People want me for my trade routes. We got our own money. I don't want to be in nobody's, I don't want to fight anybody's war. Like he's possessively protective of his people. And she goes, I want to belong. You know, she sees the way he takes care of his people, the way he, because the thing that Queen Elizabeth uses to get him to marry her is that one of his kinsmen is with him and he's like, you can do whatever you want to do to me. I don't care. But then she says, I will hang him right now if you don't marry her. And he does. You know, he's like, you can kill me but you can't touch. He says, I protect what's mine. Nobody's ever gonna hurt with mine. And mine, mine mine, mine,

Sarah MacLean 31:21 / #
Mine, mine, mine mine mine.

That's my id, you know mine mine mine mine mine. But it's not even just applied to her. It's applied to anyone who's under his protection. She compares him to a falcon who spreads his wings over his whole clan and she goes, I want to be in the shadow. Oh my god.

Put it in my veins.

Kennedy Ryan 31:44 / #
She starts to find her power. And she is some royals daughter and he start, he knows that. But she starts to realize it. And she starts to realize she has power even when like even when they have sex like for the first time and second time around. Whatever, she starts to articulate the power for own pleasure, and he teaches her that he's like, you have power over me, I can't resist you. Do you know what I mean? It's like, and then

Sarah MacLean 32:12 / #
I'm going to go back and reread this book right now.

Kennedy Ryan 32:15 / #
There's another woman who comes and she's smiling and she's innocent. And as soon as the door like with all the guys, and as soon as the door closes, she's like, okay, here's, here's what we're gonna do. You know, its like power, she understands the patriarchy she's working inside of, and how to leverage her gifts and her power to get around them. You know, she's always, they're always looking for workarounds. And I love that about this book. And if she becomes, in the beginning, she's timid. She's weak on the surface, but she has this like steel backbone, and you begin to see her rise like and the power, by the end of the book is so clearly her novel. It's so clearly her story. It's so clearly she is the most powerful piece on the whole board. And he recognizes that too. I don't want to give it away, the 30 year spoiler, but at the end even he's like, what do you want me to do? I will leave my clan, I will do this, I will do whatever, you know, it's just the joy of it. So empowering.

Sarah MacLean 33:16 / #
You know what's interesting, though, is we talk so much about these crazy like, over the top plots. And the reality is is like, they're not they don't they're not just, they don't just happen to be they're overt and they have, they are there so that stories like this can overtly discuss power and how women have it and how women use it and where power comes from and how it can be wielded. Yeah, when especially when it's obscure power.

Jennifer Prokop 33:49 / #
I think it's about persistence to right like what we see is like this evolution of women in the face of like, you have to keep if you want to outsmart the patriarchy It's gonna take persistent hard work that you're going to keep doing in as many ways as you can until you get what you want and get what you need.

Sarah MacLean 34:09 / #
But these power moves, are they I mean, what's interesting is that these older plots, I mean, they don't really happen as much anymore in current day, but we still have heroines who can make Queen moves, don't we Kennedy?

Jennifer Prokop 34:28 / #
Oh Sarah.

Kennedy Ryan 34:28 / #
Seg to the way.

Sarah MacLean 34:30 / #
Rim shot!

Kennedy Ryan 34:37 / #
You're as smooth as ribbons.

Sarah MacLean 34:43 / #
No, but so I mean, I'm gonna just I'm just gonna like fangirl over "Queen Move" for a little bit here because I think so. You know, Jen talks a lot about when people sort of hit their Imperial period as writers and I feel like I have always loved your writing. I've always felt like you "take the finger" like you lean into fear when you're writing. And I think that and I think you're a magnificent writer. But "Queen Move" is like, elevated to a new. I mean the whole series but like, "Queen Move" is like, I feel like you are, you're writing at the top of the game, not your game, the game.

Kennedy Ryan 35:24 / #
My mouth is hanging open.

Sarah MacLean 35:29 / #
It just feels to me but part of what's glorious about "Queen Move", is this magnificent heroine, who is just, she you back her up against the wall emotionally right from the start from like page one. And then you unpack. I mean, there's a lot to love about this book. It's also really epic, in the way, that some of these old romances of I can see the bones of your blooding and in this book, you know and part of that is because I've just spent a year with Jen like really unpacking, what the bones of romance are. And it's clear to me that you're, you've been taught to write romance by all the people who taught me to write romance, too. So of course, I'm like naturally drawn to your books. But there's something just like

Kennedy Ryan 36:17 / #
Same because I just finished Daring. So fan girl over here. But you already know that I was texting you the whole time.

Sarah MacLean 36:24 / #
This is my turn. This is, it's my podcast, so I get to talk. So this so there's this epicness about the whole story, especially because you also are telling the story of multiple generations. Yeah. But, um, this I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the evolution of this particular heroine and like, and just tell everybody a little bit about where you came, how you came to her?

Kennedy Ryan 36:50 / #
You know, so the heroines name is Kimba. And for anyone who read "All the King's Men" duet, she is the best friend in The first two books of you know, the duet, "The Kingmaker", and "The Rebel King". And Linux is the heroine in that and just to give context, it's kind of like scandalous in the sense that they're like gladiators. You know, they're like white hat girls. So they start their own political consulting firm specifically to install people in power, who they believe will advance the causes of marginalized people. And so our heroine in those the duet is Native American, she's Yabba pi Apache. And Kimbo of course, is black. And so they are like all about the brown girls all about the black girls all about queer people, like they're all about marginalized groups and making sure that we're putting people in power who are going to advance those causes. And so I won't talk about everything that happens in the duet because that is bananas. That is a lot.

Sarah MacLean 37:54 / #
But like magnificently bananas. I'm here for all these. This is my Like I'm here from contemporary 2020 romance to take these risks, because I think we're still having these conversations. The patriarchy still exists. It's still, it's still coming for marginalized groups and women and, and it feels like these big stories deserve to be told now more than ever. So in some ways, they just have to be twisted a little bit.

Kennedy Ryan 38:26 / #
Yeah I think so and I think one thing that was interesting for me was when you talk about you know, how you're blooded, obviously the book that blooded me once and then twice and my twice blooding. My second blooding, that's when I discovered Kinsale, who is I mean, to me, like Kinsale is like the highest bar you can reach, you know, 'Flowers From the Storm", I adore. I found and I know, I just slipped back in historical mode. I'm sorry. I'll get there.

Sarah MacLean 38:57 / #
Come back around. It's fine.

Kennedy Ryan 38:58 / #
"Flowers From the Storm". When I read it, I just kind of sat there like, I can't even process what just happened, you know, because and I think when you talk about who are the writers who inspire you, I'm not even saying that I'm anywhere close or whatever be to Kinsale, but she is like the little angel on my shoulder when I'm writing because she does not pander to readers. She doesn't say, "Oh, they may not know this word", or she doesn't say,"Oh, this might be too hard". Or she doesn't say "wow, they're gonna have to get through this first". She is fearless. And she's like, either you're with me or you're not? Yes, the Duke is gonna have a stroke. And no, he's not going to speak right for the rest of the book. And yes she's a Quaker and she's gonna say "thee and thou" for the whole book deal with it. You know, it's like she is just and the intricacy of the way she writes in the way she developed plots, it affects me. And that kind of just for an example, when you read "Shadow Heart", which again Medieval, you know she has a medieval, not even a duology because they're standalone, but it's "For My Lady's Heart". Yeah, they're companions for my lady's heart and then years later she writes shadow heart and the hero is the best antihero he has an actual assassin.

Jennifer Prokop 40:20 / #
I love assassins I do.

Kennedy Ryan 40:24 / #
I love assassins. Okay, this is the level of assassin this dude is he's tried there and I think street market and he and again it's Medieval and he needs her to shut up and she's screaming and screaming and to me she doesn't get it. He does that like pressure point face and neck. And she faints. She fainted. And He is ruthless. I know it sounds like an asshole but he's amazing.

Sarah MacLean 40:57 / #
I like that. I know he sounds like an asshole.

Kennedy Ryan 40:59 / #
But this is the thing. She becomes again the same as like with the "Magnificent Rogue", she is the heir to something that he and another guy have been fighting for. She's the rightful heir to it. Like she is the princess. And they've been fighting because the throne has been vacant and she takes the throne. But at the beginning she's just like this simple farm girl you know who is kind of stumbling along and doesn't even know her own power. But there are elements Now think about how long ago, this was elements of BDSM strong elements of BDSM in a Mideval.

Sarah MacLean 41:35 / #
Kinsale is real kinky.

Kennedy Ryan 41:37 / #
She is oh my gosh, when I tell you, and this is the brilliance of Kinsale.

Sarah MacLean 41:43 / #
Jen is like "what is happening"

Jennifer Prokop 41:45 / #
I'm enjoying it all.

Kennedy Ryan 41:48 / #
Okay, so it's a Medieval we're going to I'm going to get back to Queen so sorry. It was a Medieval, we're going right we're moving right along and the whole time I'm in love with him like I'm in love with him because he's magnificent and he is fearless, and he's ruthless, but also protective and obviously really into her. And she discovers that she has these dominant kind of tendencies and he who was like so powerful, so alpha has these, you know tendencies where he wants to be dominated in an instance you know, in sexual situations and so they start to play with that. And I'm the whole time I love dual POV and it's it's just her POV, her POV and the whole time like, gosh, I would love to know what he's thinking. Chapter 17 she has him, he's much taller than she is. He's standing against the wall she is she gets on a step so that she can mount him. And all of a sudden, like chapter 17 or something, it switches to his point of view. We have not heard his point of view for 17 chapter.

Sarah MacLean 42:51 / #
Magnificent. That is a baller move.

Kennedy Ryan 42:56 / #
Baller move like drop the mic.

Jennifer Prokop 42:59 / #
This is where I've got to tell you as a reader, I don't like it. I'll tell you why. Cuz now I'm like, listen, you've been keeping this man from me.

Kennedy Ryan 43:13 / #
But you get him for the rest of the book Jen, the rest of the book. It works so hard. Like, because its around chapter 17 somewhere around there. And then he's there for the rest of the book, it switches points of view for the rest of the book. And it is just anyway, it's magnificent. So that kind of just intricacy, of plot, just saying readers, just come with me, you know, I'm not looking over our shoulder like, Are you still with me? Are you still with me? I'm like, okay, either you're coming or you're not like, Yeah, and I really hope that you do. And I'm going to try to make it as easy for you as possible. But I'm not going to compromise on the story that I want to tell. And I see that, that in Kinsale like that is, it's some, it's just magnificent in her.

Sarah MacLean 43:59 / #
I think this is the thing right Jen, Jen and I were talking this morning about a different book. And we were, we were just having conversation about whether or not she's reading a book that I've already read and and whether or not it worked for her and, and I, here's my problem is as a writer, I really like it when someone takes that risk. Like, no one's ever done this thing before. Maybe it won't work, but I'm going to do it and we'll see. Yeah, right. And I think that that, that confidence, and I do think it is con, I think it's learned. I think sometimes you see that in a debut and it's naive. It's not the right word like Yeah, right. It's just that you've never you don't know what you don't know. And so you just sort of, you're just writing into the wind, and you end up writing some sort of book that really sort of pushes the boundaries of the genre in an really interesting way. But often when we see that in a debut, the following books can't keep up with that. Yeah, so but when somebody like Kinsale pulls this behavior or you, Kennedy, then what you're seeing is confidence in skill, in like the writers confidence in their own skill, but also a sort of very clear belief that readers will follow.

Jennifer Prokop 45:16 / #
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I joked or whatever but like, right, I think it all it things work if the craft is there and one of the things I actually like really struggle with and I can't imagine you two as authors do not either, is the sort of narrative that like writing romance is just like, it's always the same. And you know, it's just this like, silly thing when you know, women are well used to be that women do, you know, that it's just a silly genre. And I think that when people take big risks with craft, their craft as authors, right? I want, I want the world to appreciate. I don't really actually maybe care what the world thinks I want romance readers, at least to appreciate that there's work that goes into this right. Like reader that readers are seeing, you know, again, that Imperial period thing like, right, like we are seeing authors that are making really explicit choices and so given what you just described about this book it actually totally makes sense to me like she unlocks him somehow and now he's on the page.

Sarah MacLean 46:16 / #
And what a great use of sex to in that moment. Anyway, stop right there I'm cutting Jen.

Jennifer Prokop 46:21 / #
No, no, but I think like that's the part I, the thing about like, the bananas books kind of narrative is, we as insiders to the genre, like see what it's doing, but I sometimes feel like outsiders to the genre use it as like a weapon a snicker. That's, you know, I don't really care but I went inside I just want us to appreciate like, craft choices are our craft choices, and it's not accidental people are making decisions and I do like that, despite my earlier.

Sarah MacLean 46:57 / #
I mean, this is one of those things Jen to where it's so I mean, I'm sure I know I know you well enough now that I know that you are very you are really enjoying this conversation with Kennedy. And I think that part of it is the joy of like talking to somebody who knows the history. You know, we're about to, next week, we have an episode recorded with Steve Ammondon and it talks about somebody who just knows every knows the history of the genre and is able to really unpack why. You know, it's like that scene in "The Devil Wears Prada" where. What's her name? Help me, Help me know the other one. Marianda, what's her name? Sarah, the actress though. Meryl Streep or Meryl Streep says to Anne Hathaway like you're wearing yes, that blue sweater.

movie dialogue 47:51 / #
Oscar de la Renta did a collection of civilian gowns and then I think it was the salary or wasn't it who showed civilian military jackets. I think we need a jacket here.

Sarah MacLean 47:59 / #
Yeah. On the cover of Vogue, yes. Like, like meta, like, yeah, you think this is foolish. But it's not. Because it's all, I can show you how it's built. And I think when you talk to somebody who knows the bones of the genre, you can really unpack these questions of why are, why is switching the POV during a sex scene for the first time, to a man? Yeah, power move for the heroine and for the writer. And, and why like we've never seen we don't see that usually in books.

Kennedy Ryan 48:43 / #
And I, I think that kind of intention. Now it feels very intentional. And she can pull it off like she has the craft back it up.

Sarah MacLean 48:52 / #
And there aren't many who can pull that kind of shift. Oh, 17 chapters and then you get a new POV.

Kennedy Ryan 49:00 / #
Absolutly and he stays with, he stays with you for the rest of the novel, you know, switching back and forth, but

Sarah MacLean 49:06 / #
I mean, it's real bold itself. You know who else has done that? Um, Kennedy, have you ever read Anne Mallory?

Kennedy Ryan 49:13 / #
Yes. I can't remember which of hers.

Sarah MacLean 49:15 / #
You read the one I'm sure you read the one that I told you read, probably which is the one with the chest scene, huh? Have you read that one, where she sells herself to basically like, he wins her in a in a bet from her father. And then they play chess for 70 pages. But there's another Anne Mallory and I'll find it I don't remember the title but I will find it and put it in shownotes that does a similar thing. I mean, clearly as an homage to this Kinsale but does a similar thing where for the first like third of the book, you don't get the hero. And then you get the hero. And it's really I remember reading that and just being like, wow, this is a bold move like but Anne writes like she doesn't write romance anymore. Unfortunately. She's another writer who every book was different. Like every book took a different risk.

Jennifer Prokop 50:06 / #
A generation of romance isn't like the same as a generation of people. Right? And so, you know, we're not talking like 25 years, and these are all in the same group. I mean, I think a romance generation is maybe like, 10 years, maybe. Or, you know, and and so it's like, "50 Shades" since "50 Shades" seems like a generation, right? Since like, "Bet Me" and like between "Bet Me" and "50 Shades" was another one. And I think that the thing too, is like when we think about how, like narrative choices have changed over time, right, like that was, it would be very hard to imagine someone doing that today. And not, you know, like, when I first joked about not liking it, it's because I was thinking about 2020 Jen, right, not thinking like, Hey, that was three generations of romance ago. And yeah, and the books just read differently.

Sarah MacLean 50:57 / #
I mean, that probably shattered some readers. Imagine I mean, I bet what's interesting too is I bet readers were really frustrated by the idea. When was that book? Do you? Do you know, Kennedy?

Kennedy Ryan 51:08 / #
No. Are you talking about are you

Sarah MacLean 51:10 / #
The Kinsale?

Chapter 17, Kinsale.

It's "Shadow Heart".

Let me see, maybe 10 years between the companion novel, and like the first one, it's like maybe 10 years between them because I want this one won. This one won, The Rita, which was let me see

It's first published in 2004. In 2004, we've never seen we really rarely saw single POV romance novels. Until, you know, no, 2010.

Jennifer Prokop 51:46 / #
No, that's not true. It was just always the heroine, like all of early romance was heroin only.

Kennedy Ryan 51:55 / #
Well, I don't know because "The Wolf and The Dove", is double point of view. It is omniscient. But it's well, it's double point of view.

Sarah MacLean 52:03 / #
You know those heroes are hard to crack. Cuz that's the problem, right?

Kennedy Ryan 52:07 / #
Yeah. Well, and I think when you talk about the hero we talk about and this I think goes back to you asking me about "Queen Move". And what imprints us like of course those first novels because I was blooded with like "The Wolf and The Dove" and "Agetting out Pirates Love" now "Pirates Love" is racy. But I mean, it's like that alpha male, you know, that it imprints on you and it kind of changes over the years but I find myself still enjoying that dominance but now as a grown woman, now as a, you know, fully understanding feminist, that, that, that primalness, that archetype still appeals to me, but it's it has to be filtered through my philosophy, my personal worldview, my personal belief system now. So I find myself grappling as a reader and as a writer with that line where I feel like you've crossed into male toxicity, or you, you know, I find myself you know, examining that line a lot in my work. And when I wrote, I had to be super super, super careful when I wrote "The All the King's Men" duet, the duology because the heroine is Native American and the hero is white. And there is such a harmful history where in romance, that relationship that power dynamic has been appropriated, has been harmful, has been stereotypica, has been demeaning, has stripped native women of dignity has stripped uh, you know, indigenous people of their, you know, the culture. So even when I was the research that went into that was, it was the hardest research I've ever done. It was a it was a lot. I literally was consulting a medicine man for parts of that book to make sure that I got it right and course had indigenous sensitivity and responsive readers from that tribe and from other tribes. So it was a whole thing. But then I had this alpha male, and it was like, how am I going to have this alpha male with this Native American heroine and not perpetuate that? And it was such a delicate balance, you know, it was starting the relationship had to evolve over the two books, even their sexual, she first of all, she had to be an alpha female, you know, she, it had for me to feel like I was striking the right balance. She was an alpha female. So she was very assertive. She was very powerful. There was no dominating her, you know, he I didn't ever do you know what I'm saying?

Sarah MacLean 54:43 / #
Yes, of course,

Kennedy Ryan 54:44 / #
But even you know, how you might say something like is a savage kiss or something like that, that that word couldn't be in the whole book. You know, it's like, oh, no, you can't do that. Okay, you know, so you there's like this even tighter filter, and I found myself really having to restructure, what the alpha male looked like in that in that context, and then when I wrote it is very different cuz he is very dominant. And also I think that he becomes more sexually aggressive as the book goes on because we start to trust him as an individual. Do you know what I'm saying? Not as a caricature, but I think he can be more in the beginning. He's sexually aggressive, but not in the way he is, by the end of the book, by the end of the second book, because readers know him as a person, they get to know him as a person and to trust him with her, and see that she can trust herself with him without him perpetuating what we've seen before.

Jennifer Prokop 55:43 / #
Can I ask you a question? Because this, and this is really to both of you, which is I feel like there's a big conversation that I mean, really, in the past couple years that romance has been having about, like, sort of like the cinnamon roll versus the alpha and Kennedy like, what you're sort of seemed to be explicitly saying is if I'm interested an alpha hero and I'm writing male/female romance then what I need to create to balance that out as an alpha heroine.

Kennedy Ryan 56:07 / #
Um, I'm sure that it can be done. I'm sure that someone could do it without doing that, I think for the particular novel that I was writing, and the particular history that came with that ethnic mix in a relationship, I made that choice. But I mean, when I got to "Queen Move", I made a different choice, you know, where he is more, more of a cinnamon roll hero. And she is very, very powerful. And he is powerful. He's very, you know, very sexual in the bedroom, very sexually aggressive, and she's aggressive and she knows what she wants. She's in charge of her, her sexuality and her power and they have a conversation about their number. And he's like eight because he's been in a committed relationship for a long time and she's like, I have no idea what my number is. He is very secure. She needs that she probably makes more money than he does. Her job is higher profile. She's very, very powerful. And he is an educator, you know, he starts a school for underprivileged kids, a private school. So he's like, your zip code should not dictate your education. And he starts his private school that's, you know, funded. So he's an educator, and she is electing presidents. And he is completely secure, in the fact, that she makes more money than he does. He's completely secure, in the fact, that she's, you know, on CNN, commentating and he's not, and he's exactly what she needs. So, I don't know.

Sarah MacLean 57:43 / #
An arguably what the world needs in 2020. I mean, he's a model, right? Which is interesting because he sort of is a model, in the way, that a lot of these heroes have always been models like you establish the the hero who walks through fire for the heroine, the alpha here who walks through fire for heroin, and is sort of broken down and rebuilt for her in an image of like parody and partnership. That is, that is the hero that needed to be modeled for many, many years. And now we need a different kind of hero to model.

Kennedy Ryan 58:21 / #
in some cases, yeah.

Sarah MacLean 58:23 / #
But Ezra also, like Ezra isn't a cinnamon roll to the in the sense of like, there's not he's not just all soft all the time.

Kennedy Ryan 58:33 / #
No, no definitely not. No, um, he's introverted. He is very self contained. One thing that was very important for me, some people would call him a cinnamon roll hero like in reviews or in conversations, but he is Black and Jewish. So he's a man of color. And one thing that I think we don't see enough with men of color, whether that's, you know, black men, Latin x men Whatever it is, we don't see them so often, as fathers, as nurturers and he is a single dad. And I really wanted to unpack because he's very strong. He's quiet and strong. He's in direct contrast to Maxim, from the first from the duet who was like a mogul, you know, sustainable energy. And he becomes, you know, a place just as huge, charismatic, like bigger than life figure. And of course, we fall in love with him. But then there's this other guy who is so content with his life. You know what I'm saying? He's so on mission, his mission and he's not comparing himself or his life or his choices or his mission to anyone else's, and he has his own strength. So I want him to be as big and readers hearts as that, you know, living in Atlanta, running his school, doling out his son's vitamins every morning and making sure he doesn't drink Cokeyou know. Investing in his son, and seeing his son as his mission, raising a good human as his mission. I want that hero to be as big in readers hearts as this other guy who is this huge mogul of sustainable energy and ends up being president. You know, I want both. I want us I want readers to see the value of both and how both are fitted to these women. You know how they complement these women and they're exactly what this woman needs. And that's also the choice. We as women have to decide what we need, you know, the essence of feminism, your choice. And she chooses Ezra, you know, well, they they're fated. Fated mates. You know they're the same day their soul mate.

Sarah MacLean 1:00:41 / #
Clear Fated Mates to, I mean the one of my it's so early in the book I can sort of, I mean, it's chapter one.

Kennedy Ryan 1:00:49 / #
You can read it on Amazon.

Sarah MacLean 1:00:51 / #
But when I yeah, you can read it on Amazon. One of my favorites, I guess it's not chapter one. Oh, yeah, I know it is. I don't know. It's early. You can read it on Amazon. So the but it's but it's the moment where she sees him. I mean, this is the magnificent thing, right? Like she sees him at her. She's at her father's funeral. The book begins with her at her father's funeral. Yeah, the prologue, in comes this man who is the boy she loved as a child. I mean, there it is, right? My pure ID, right? But it's the boy that she loved as a child and he has his child is there and so is this child's mother, who you are led to believe, is this man's perfect, beautiful wife. And it is so heartbreaking for to watch this heroine who is buttoned up like at her father's funeral like, cannot refuse this reveal kind of really any emotion. And here she is kind of whacked in the head by this boy she hasn't seen in years, who was her first love right? And then whacked in her head in the head again by the fact that he has This beautiful wife who's with him. And, and then, and this beautiful child and this like perfect and her family, as you're reading this, her family is also just in shambles, I mean, destroyed by the loss of this father figure. And so like the compare the, I mean, it's just the moment. I mean, you read that that scene and it's just so perfectly balanced. And it's I mean, it's just amazing. And then of course, you know, they're not like the wife is not really a wife. And so like it sort of unravels the way a romance novel should.

Kennedy Ryan 1:02:39 / #
Yeah, well, and you know, I think one thing that people someone interviewed me last week and they were like, you don't usually have weddings in your books. I you know, because my weddings are hard. They are hard, but I think a lot of and I will often do weddings and bonus epilogues as opposed to the actual like cannon of the novel itself, and I, I like writing books where the wedding is not the point, you know, so often it feels like

Jennifer Prokop 1:03:07 / #
Yeah, the wedding is never the point, right.

Kennedy Ryan 1:03:09 / #
You know, like getting to the altar, you know, is the point and I, I wrote a series called the grip series. And in the third book, it's a trilogy with the same couple across three novels. And you're like, What is she going to do in that third book, you know, because they get together at the end of the second book, and they get married pretty early in the third book. So I like writing books where the point can't just be that they're happily ever you know, that they get together. There's all these other things and the series that I'm working on now, all the couples are married, you know, it's like, so the point can't just be to marry each other. You know, and I think for me, it's so much more about the journey, and what that looks like, than just them kind of getting together.

Sarah MacLean 1:03:55 / #
Don't you feel that partially that marriage the marriage book becomes more approachable for you as a reader as you age. Yeah, I can remember that when I was a kid marriage of convenience was just my least favorite trope. I just didn't care about how hard it was to be married. Or a second chance, right? With a married couple, who cares, right? But now I feel like there are certain writers who just do it so beautifully. And it's such a complex way of telling a love story.

Jennifer Prokop 1:04:27 / #
But I also feel like isn't that the greatest thing about romance is that like, there's so much there that as you age and grow and change in your life, in your relationships, like there's romances for you, this isn't a genre you have to lose. Because you're your life is different, right? It's and it's as Kennedy proved, it's a genre people can come back to and that's the part it's there's so much diversity and richness in the genre. And just like the types of stories that you can find yourself attracted to is.

Sarah MacLean 1:04:57 / #
Yeah, Kennedy can I Ask a craft question?

Kennedy Ryan 1:05:03 / #
Of course, I don't know if I'm a craft woman.But yes go for it.

Sarah MacLean 1:05:06 / #
I want to talk about that I want to go back to Queen mu because so I talked earlier about how there's this epic kind of generational story that's going on in this book. And I don't want to spoil anything about it. But you make a really interesting choice. And, and I thought, as I was reading it, you know, I knew "Daring and the Duke" was coming. And I have just done this sort of generation not generational, but like, long, long time love story, right? Like childhood love. I know, I know, I sort of feel like we should do this as an Instagram Live too, and just talk about this for an hour. But so well, I'm in if you are so anyway, but the question that I have specifically is, so you make a choice, and it's about 25% of the Is it about a quarter of the book, like, you mean, we're children. We're in the past we're in we're in the childhood. It's a lot time. And I mean, it's not I don't say that. I mean, I loved every page of it. But it's interesting because I mean, I, that I really struggled as a writer with making the choice of like, how much am I going to give them of the childhood versus the adult romance and I wonder if you had that struggle to or how you sort of came, but I also feel like your story being kind of multigenerational required that much energy. I don't know if this is a real question, but I feel like I want to talk about the choice the craft choice of giving readers the past for so long.

Kennedy Ryan 1:06:42 / #
Yes, it is about 20% of the book. Oh, you're probably right, roughly about 20. I think it's about six chapters. Yeah. And I think that what helped probably for me as I was writing it, is that it's so weird, you know, because you can do these time jumps and you get completely confuse readers, and I wanted to be clear about what I was doing because the part that you were just describing, which was, you know, at her father's funeral, and this boy that she, you know, was our first kiss her first, arguably her first love shows up 20 years later, they're seeing each other first time. That's the prologue. And it literally says, two years before the present, and you're like what the heck is that.

Sarah MacLean 1:07:26 / #
Well, but I love that.

Kennedy Ryan 1:07:28 / #
It was like this. Okay, Rita, you're in the present. This happened two years ago. So the prologue says two years before the present, and we see them as adults. And we know that there is a certain intimacy between them not there's obviously some kind of pull. That's there. And I think I had I put that there for those readers who don't want to have trouble with the childhood. You know

Sarah MacLean 1:07:56 / #
Yeah, I mean, I think it had to be there. Yeah,

Kennedy Ryan 1:07:59 / #
Like here's the promise.

Sarah MacLean 1:08:00 / #
yeah, yeah, eventually it's these two.

Kennedy Ryan 1:08:03 / #
Yes, it's these two. And the reason I felt like I had to go back and then I think it goes the next the first chapters like 1983. And it's in his mother's point of view. Yeah.

Sarah MacLean 1:08:14 / #
It's really cool.

Kennedy Ryan 1:08:17 / #
It's not even in one of their points of view. It's in his view

Sarah MacLean 1:08:21 / #
Babies, their babies. their literal babies.

Kennedy Ryan 1:08:23 / #
Infants in a bathtub. And, you know, she's orienting us, and it's 1983. And it's Georgia. And she's a Jewish woman who has married a black man in 1983, living in Atlanta, because her husband is on scholarship, you know, at Emory for law school. And she has left her her, her community of faith back in New York, very tight knit community that wasn't sure how they felt about her marrying someone, not even someone who was black, but someone who wasn't Jewish. And so she has had she's had tension with her family, but That's repaired. And she's navigating this whole new she feels she says she basically feels alone in the state, you know, in the whole state, when she goes out with her son people, you know, ask is that your son, you know, these are things that are real experiences. And I was fortunate enough to find people who are actually black and Jewish people who have actually negotiated the duality of those identities. And I definitely did not want to write a tragic mulatto story. You know, I didn't want to do that. And I did not go there. But just showing some of the real difficulty that a family living in that context would be navigating. But just as context, and we get and it begins the friendship because there's a couple of things. One of them is found family, their families live next door to each other and they become their families become close. And that was one of the things I really wanted to build in those childhood chapters. There was this foundation for that what becomes their relationship I want people to see from the beginning, the closeness that is kind of the foundation for everything. So we don't just go like it kind of skips fast, like, Yes, they're babies in chapter one, but we get to chapter two, they're 10 years old, you know, in the chapter three, they're 12 and then chapter four and five and six, they're like, 13 they're in the eighth grade. So it accelerates it starts when they're babies within an accelerates but all of these kind of key moments of childhood and adolescence or think she stutters, you know, when he's there for her and then she has her you know, I'll just say that she has he rcycle, you know, all every girl has had that thing of, oh my god, you know, you ruin a pair of pants and you know, and I was like, and people see it and he's protective of her and wrapping his coat around her waist. And you know, it's like all of a sudden they have their you know, their you know, dance right before they're going to high school and, you know, she's with this, you know, this not great guy who wants to be her first kiss. And she's you know, it's just all this stuff you know the all of the adolescent angst before you're in high school, all of that stuff and they're there for each other.

Sarah MacLean 1:11:10 / #
Well, thats what makes when Ezra leaves. Yeah, when Ezra's parents divorce and his mother takes her, takes him back to New York to her family,

Kennedy Ryan 1:11:21 / #
They don't divorce but or they don't divorce but something happens between the two families that explodes the friendship between those two families and they end up moving away

Sarah MacLean 1:11:30 / #
Ezra's family ends up leaving Georgia and going back to New York and it make the rift between the the end of that sort of intense childhood friendships so emotional and so amazing. And I think it's just such an interesting choice because I have done I've done a few of these childhood or young love to older, more seasoned love stories, and I think I always struggle with time. You know how much time to spend where and I just thought it was such a very important and like really cool choice to just lean into the past. I was brought I was reminded of Lisa Kleypas and "Again the Magic".

Kennedy Ryan 1:12:20 / #
I don't even talk about, "Again the Magic".

Sarah MacLean 1:12:27 / #
Where these two are just so intensely in so like for each other, and it's so clear that they're just that their Fated Mates. And then it breaks. And it it's, it breaks the reader's heart to I mean, it's just, it's really, I mean, you know, I love this book, and I just,

Kennedy Ryan 1:12:48 / #
I love books that do that. Have you not like obscure historical romance. So, you know, who nobody ever talks about, and I think it's because she has some tax troubles and not

Sarah MacLean 1:12:58 / #
Are you gonna say Megan McKinney?

Kennedy Ryan 1:13:07 / #
How did you know that?

Sarah MacLean 1:13:09 / #
Meghan McKinney is a real problematic person.

Is she? But I just knew that she kind of disappeared.

Boy she blooded me too. Yeah.

Kennedy Ryan 1:13:19 / #
She has a book called I think "When Angels Fall" and it's that it's the same thing where he works in her parents stables and their nobility and he is a stable man but he's somebody bastard. Yeah always somebodies bastard. And he ends up becoming like the Earl and then her family is destitute. And it's this whole intense, revenge. He thinks it's revenge. But of course, he's just obsessed with her.

Sarah MacLean 1:13:47 / #
Revenge is the best and worst motivation.

Kennedy Ryan 1:13:51 / #
Yes. So have you so have you read we the ground, "The Ground She Walks Upon", I think that's what it is by Mehgan Mckinny?

Sarah MacLean 1:14:00 / #
I mean i'm sure i that is not one I've read everything Meghan McKinney has written. But I mean we should say you can look this up on Wikipedia it's not a secret but she she lived in New Orleans and after Katrina she perpetuated a very large tax scheme of fraud and she went to prison, so I mean if Wikipedia is to believed that is what happened to Mehgan Mckinney.

Jennifer Prokop 1:14:29 / #
Well, I think there's some documented evidence.

Sarah MacLean 1:14:31 / #
There's some there citations.

Jennifer Prokop 1:14:35 / #
Hey, I before we wrap up, though, I actually have a

Sarah MacLean 1:14:38 / #
Jen's like, ladies.

Jennifer Prokop 1:14:41 / #
Like, let me save you from yourself. No, loving the Mehgan McKinney. Um, here's my question. Kennedy, your love for historical romance is so intense. Have you ever thought about writing one?

Kennedy Ryan 1:14:59 / #
Oh, gosh. so intimidated. I mean, I'm so I'm really intimidated by, I mean, my books are research heavy, but they're not like that type of research and I have thought about it. I honestly have. But I just get so scared. I get so intimidated by it. I don't know why.

Jennifer Prokop 1:15:21 / #
Well, it sounds like you do a lot of people research. Everything I've ever heard about you is how much you like talking to people. And I guess yeah, I can't, you know, dig out somebody from 1820 or whatever.

Kennedy Ryan 1:15:34 / #
Well, I mean, I have usually like, especially with a lot of it is and I think it's maybe my journalism background and all the interviews I always had to do, but it's something I lean into is people who have actually lived things that mirror you know what my characters are doing. So a lot of interviews, lots of conversations, but also lots of reading. I read, read lots of memoirs.

Gosh, for all the king's men. I was literally reading anthropological textbooks. I mean, it was just, it was really intense, but I wanted to get it right. So I think I have, I think I have the tools that I could, if I can just get over. First of all, it had to be something that compelled me, because I don't really write unless I feel compelled. And I know that sounds artsy fartsy. But I have to feel compelled by whatever that thing is at the core. And it's usually something that is happening. For me a lot of times something that's happening in the real world that I want to shine light on in the context of an epic love story. So those are the things that kind of get my wheels turning. But if I could find something like that, that is in a different era, it probably would be I don't know when it would be it might be in the 20s or it might be you know, it might be something like that probably is because I have I love a marriage of art and activism and a lot of what I write, and I would

Sarah MacLean 1:17:03 / #
Well Jazz Age New York, man.

Jennifer Prokop 1:17:06 / #
Harlem Renaissance I mean, there's so many Yeah, totally.

Kennedy Ryan 1:17:09 / #
Thats what I keep thinking about so I feel if I did venture into it'll probably be around there. There's a you know, because that's also you know, the explosion of literature and culture and just all the things that you know, that were amazing about that period. So

Sarah MacLean 1:17:29 / #
Well, I'll read whatever you write forever. So, Kennedy, thank you so much. Well, you come on again. This was so fun.

Kennedy Ryan 1:17:39 / #
Oh my gosh. This was so fun.

Jennifer Prokop 1:17:42 / #
It was amazing.

Kennedy Ryan 1:17:42 / #
Thank you guys for having me. I'm such a fan and I was so nervous coming on you guys.

Jennifer Prokop 1:17:49 / #
Well it was so fun.

Kennedy Ryan 1:17:51 / #
I was like, they're so smart. I'm not even gonna know anything.

Jennifer Prokop 1:17:54 / #
No, you were great. You knew all about Prince's many proteges, I was going to say backup singers and I was like that's not the word.

Kennedy Ryan 1:18:05 / #
If no one else wants to be Eric, is it Eric?

Sarah MacLean 1:18:09 / #
That's it you're his new favorite.

Thank you so much, everyone. This is our second to last episode of the season. Jen, tell everyone what they won next week. So I guess I talked about it already.

Jennifer Prokop 1:18:25 / #
Steve Ammidown from the Bowling Green Pop Culture Library is going to be here and we are going to go back and revisit. I'm actually super excited about this. We each read some of the books that were originally acquired by Vivian Stevens. And so we will be talking about some of those early historicals I'm sorry, early contemporaries in that essentially, in in, in series that she like founded and put into place and what those books were doing so we think it's gonna be a really cool episode, and we're gonna all enjoy.

Sarah MacLean 1:18:56 / #
For those of you who've been sort of, you know, curious, whenever we talked about Vietnam, there's a lot of discussion of Vietnam and next week, so, um, you know, get ready for that. And then we're taking some weeks off, but there will be new episodes or at least new content every week. While we are off, but we are back the first week of August with season three. And we are we have a plan. A plan now we have a plan but this is Fated Mates. You can find transcripts for many of our episodes, all the music that's in all the episodes merch and other cool stuff at Fated Mates.net I have a book out came out last week. You can listen you can find "Daring in the Duke" in bookstores, wherever books are sold and listen to last week's episode once you've read "Daring in the Duke" and there's lots of spoilers in there. But most importantly, Kennedy Ryan was with us this week. Her recent book is "Queen Move". It is really truly magnificent. One of the best reads of my You're so far, surely it will be one of the best reads of my year period. Kennedy, where can people find you?

Kennedy Ryan 1:20:07 / #
I'm on Instagram a lot at Kennedy Ryan one and I'm on Twitter and I have a website, you know, all the places, even if you just go to my Instagram and click the link, it takes you all to all the places.

Sarah MacLean 1:20:23 / #
So find Kennedy in all those places and read her books and have a great, have a great couple of weeks.

Unknown Speaker 1:20:35 / #
Hi, my name is Danielle. I am in California and I am a community college teacher. I teach us history. And the book book that blooded me was Jennifer Wilde "Loves Tendered Fury", which now I know is written by a man, that I stole it off my mother was bookcase and read it and then she was like oh, maybe this isn't a good thing for you to read because as you know its a little rapey and then I plowed through like Barbara Cartland and my grandmother's Harlequin series. And eventually I went to graduate school and my grad school friend introduced me to Loretta Chase. And so I'm a big fan of "Lord of Scoundrels". I love your podcast. I love romance novels. They're getting me through the Coronavirus and Trump's presidency. And please don't stop your podcast because I love it. Thanks bye.

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mini-episodes, S02 - TBTBU Jennifer Prokop mini-episodes, S02 - TBTBU Jennifer Prokop

S02.01 Welcome to Season Two

We're Back!

We promised you we'd be back with Season Two in September, and here we are in September, back with Season Two!

We've said farewell to Season One, but we'll never fully be able to quit IAD, so Season Two will be The Books That Blooded Us -- that is, the books that made us the romance readers we are...books that taught us what the genre could be, books that scratched our itch, books that made us lifelong romance readers, books that set us on the path directly to your earholes!

Over the season, we'll tackle 10 (or so) books that blooded each of us -- we'll deep dive, discuss, and delight in each other's picks -- and we've got some fun ideas for how you all can share the books that blooded you!

So...where do we begin? We begin in two weeks with the primordial text for both of us...the one...the only...Dreaming of You. We'll talk Derek Craven's cockney accent, Sara Fielding's legendary novel, Lisa Kleypas's immense skill with talismans, and we'll get to the very bottom of some of the most controversial bits of this glorious book that the two of us love a whole lot.

Get reading, y'all, we've got a lot to say. You can find Dreaming of You at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo, or at your local indie. It's currently $2.99 in digital everywhere, so snatch it up!

We'll be announcing the schedule for the first few reads later this week -- so you'll have time to read ahead, but in the meantime, sit back, relax, and let us give you a preview of what's to come!

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Show Notes

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