S06.07: Happy Halloween: Devils in Romance Novels
Jen’s been asking for this for six literal years, and we’re finally doing it! It’s Halloween and we’re talking Devils! Sure, we’ll touch on demons, but aren’t the scariest Devils the granite-jawed feelingless scoundrels who are definitely never going to fall in love? We’re talking Wicked Cynsters in Winter, Scoundrels of Downtown, Deals in Bed with Hades. You’re going to love it. All trick, no treat.
If you want more Fated Mates in your life, please join our Patreon, which comes with an extremely busy and fun Discord community! Join other magnificent firebirds to hang out, talk romance, and be cool together in a private group full of excellent people. Learn more at patreon.com.
Show Notes
The Las Vegas Aces won the WNBA championship for the second year in a row, and twitter was actually fun for a few days.
Jen ranted about this dumb Washington Post article about Lee and Andrew Child.
We have some documentaries to recommend: Sarah liked Beckham on Netflix and Jen liked The Supermodels on Apple Plus. Linda Evangalista’s “We don’t get out of bed for less than $10,000 a day” has aged better than Kate Moss’s, “Nothing tastes as good as skinny feels.” Either way, GenX has some body issues.
Devils are just morality chain when you think about it.
There actually is a place in VA called the Devil’s Bathtub! I wonder if there are any camps nearby.
Here’s a handy explainer on the difference between homophones, homographs, and homonyms from the good people at Merriam-Webster. Looks like Cynster and Sinister would be homophones.
Speaking of Cynsters, listen to our deep dive of Devil's Bride.
Here’s the video about the audiobook of Unhinged.
Are you in Florida? Sarah will be at the Off the Page Book Festival in Sarasota in November.
Books Mentioned This Episode
Sponsors
Monique Fisher, author of Hot for Teacher,
available at Amazon, or with a monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited
and
Alyxandra Harvey, author of The Countess Caper,
available at Amazon, or with a monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited
and
Megan Montgomery, author of Undertaking Love
available at Amazon, or with a monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited
S03.48: The Ted Lasso Interstitial: Is Roy Kent a Romance Hero?
“Hang on,” we can hear you saying, “isn’t this a romance novel podcast?” It absolutely is, and that’s why we’re dropping a very special episode about the character who is the most perfect on-screen version of a romance hero that ever there was: Captain of the AFC Richmond team, Roy Kent. Added bonus, we’re joined by Jen’s brother Erik to talk sports stories (and check in on Jürgen Klopp).
Spoilers abound, so if you haven’t watched Season 1, do that first!
Our next read along is Cat Sebastian’s wonderful Unmasked by the Marquess. Get it at Amazon, Apple Books, B&N, Kobo, or Bookshop.org.
Thank you, as always, for listening! Please follow us on your favorite podcasting app, and if you are up for leaving a rating or review there, we would be very grateful!
Show Notes
Ted Lasso season two starts this Friday, and the reviews look great. Also, if you haven't read this GQ profile of Jason Sudeikis, you are missing out.
In season 2, we talked about Cinnamon Roll heroes, as compared to Alpha heroes. Grunting is definitely an alpha hero trait.
We love Hannah Waddingham (Rebecca) and Juno Temple (Keeley) and that’s all we have to say about that.
Apparently, there are ways to watch Apple TV Plus shows even if you don’t have an Apple Device. Who knew!
You, too, can bake Ted’s biscuits.
USAians have a different relationship with Soccer than the rest of the world. Perhaps you need a primer on the Premier League, promotion and relegation, the average age of Premier League players, and just how popular is Premier League football really is.
Fated Mates has a favorite team, it’s Liverpool, and it’s basically because of our favorite stern brunch daddy TM, Jürgen Klopp. Stern Brunch Daddy(tm) is the invention of Andie J. Christopher, friend of the pod, who has a new book out this week!
Richmond is a fake team, but that won’t stop you from buying gear to show your team spirit. This year, London was home to six Premier League teams: Arsenal, Chelsea, Crystal Palace, Fulham, Tottenham, and West Ham United.
Yes, Jen hates it when young characters make ancient pop culture references in romances, but in this case, Indiana Jones is appropriate for people our age! Go ahead and write I Love You on your eyelids!
More about the story of how Brett Goldstein got the part of Roy Kent.
Jen’s sister-in-law Janine writes for TV and she’s kind of a big deal!
Susan Elizabeth Philips was a guest a few weeks ago, and she talked about the trope of the grizzled veteran at the end of his career and how it’s a hallmark of the Chicago Stars series.
Jen mentioned a series of soccer romances--it’s the Atlanta Skyline series by Rebecca Crowley.
You know, Roy Kent really should have tried to get that Rolex back.
In a New York Times article about adapting romance to TV and film, Outlander showrunner Matthew B. Roberts “found that voice-over sequences left actors standing around with nothing to play against. Interior monologue has to become exterior dialogue. ‘That’s our biggest challenge always.’
“It’s witched” was a joke from our very first episode, in case you’re into that sort of thing.
That German word (phrase?) is sturm und drang and it means turmoil.
Maureen Murdock’s Heroine’s Journey is an archetype that values community building over individualism, we like the latest iteration from Gail Carriger.
Rupert Mannion is the woooooorst. That darts scene is awesome though, and if you want to read a contemporary romance set in a pub that includes darts playing, Sarah wrote one!
Other sports TV shows and movies we mentioned: Friday Night Lights, Sports Night, The League, Bull Durham, and Major League.
Maybe you didn’t know that the character of Ted Lasso originated in a series of TV commercials for NBC.
Bill Lawrence was a producer for Spin City and Scrubs, which were other funny workplace comedies.
In the past few weeks, Italy won the Euro 2020 and Argentina won the Copa America. And the Olympics football competition will be interesting since men’s teams are limited to players under 23 years of age. FYI, the US Soccer Federation is pretty awful.
For Generation X and Millenials, soccer was a big deal. If you are interested in a family friendly sports outing, maybe your city has a professional soccer team! The Chicago Fire is awesome, and New York has two teams!
The 1994 World Cup was played in the USA, and Sarah remembered the name of defender Alexi Lalas. Now he’s a commentator and we would like him to do better.
So there are trick plays in football and . . . well, football.
The last few decades of television have focused on the antihero, and lots of people wonder if that didn’t help create our recent political moment.
It’s hard to beat the fan experience of singing You’ll Never Walk Alone at Anfield; but Erik recommends this 2019 video of the team and fans singing after Liverpool defeated Barcelona. The version in the last episode of season 1 of Ted Lasso is this one by Marcus Mumford.
Follow AFC Richmond, Ted Lasso, Hannah Waddingham and Brett Goldstein on Twitter. Jürgen Klopp does not have Twitter because "he is a grown man with a job."
You can also follow Brett Goldstein's podcast.
You can preorder signed copies of Bombshell from Word in Brooklyn, buttons and stickers from Best Friend Kelly, and Fated Mates merch from Jordan Dene.
S03.33: Age Gap Romance
Silver foxes, May/December, older heroines/younger heroes. Look, Sarah’s buttons were installed young, OK? We’re talking age gap romances, how they played out in the early days of the genre, how they remain popular today, and what has happened (or not!) in the books to make them viable in 2021. We try to keep this one taboo but not dark, sexy but not erotic…but by the end, we’re not making any real promises.
Check all your Content Warnings before you begin with these books!
Whether you're new to Fated Mates this month or have been with us for all three seasons, we adore you, and we're so grateful to have you. We hope you’re reading the best books this week.
Next week, we’re reading Kresley Cole’s debut, The Captain of All Pleasures. Neither of us have read it, so we’re all jumping into the deep end without a mask on this one! Find it at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Kobo, or Apple Books. Or find it from your local indie via bookshop.org.
Show Notes
You can buy Iris Johansen’s mansion in Cartersville, GA for a cool 8 million.
Maybe Chaotic Evil isn’t the best writing plan.
Here’s some pop psychology about the May December romance. By the way, the phrase May-December romance apparently dates back to Chaucer. In The Merchant’s Tale, a young woman named May marries a much older man and a confusing idiom was born.
As it turns out the “half your age plus 7” rule is not something Jen made up, because once you google it, you get charts and graphs and articles and everything.
Sarah’s reference to “Every terrifying post on that reddit board” is r/relationships, although r/amitheasshole is always available with some new tale of terrifying bad behavior.
This problems presented from lack of sex ed are pervasive though historical romance, but how much better are we doing by our kids?
Jen was talking about Marvin Gaye when she mentioned "Everybody wants their own piece of clay" shit.
Diana Palmer has a long, storied romance career, and none of it involves that kind of DP. The first book in the Long Tall Texans series, Calhoun, was published in 1988, and the latest one is #57 in the series, Texas Proud, and was published in October of 2020.
All joking about the Pioneer Woman aside, she does have some great recipes.
It turns out that the “boiling frog” analogy is just a myth, so keep on reading!
The movie Carol is based on Patricia Highsmith’s The Price of Salt.
The Jessa Kane book with the dirty version of the talk is called His Prize Pupil, in case you want to read it yourself. For science.
Our next read-along episode will be The Captain of All Pleasures by Kresley Cole. If you want more Kresley, all of Season One is for you.
Books Mentioned in This Episode
S03.31: Morality Chain Romance
We’re so thrilled to be talking morality chain romance! We’ve owed this episode to Katee Robert for nearly a year, and we have no excuses for how long this has taken, except that time in 2020 was a flat circle. Here, we get down to business—we tackle the definition of Morality Chain, and how it differs from Dark Romance, how it connects with mafia, criminals, pirates, highwaymen, and the original Alpha.
Check all your Content Warnings before you begin with these books!
Whether you're new to Fated Mates this month or have been with us for all three seasons, we adore you, and we're so grateful to have you. We hope you’re reading the best books this week.
Next week, we’re reading Alexis Daria’s You Had Me At Hola, one of our Best Books of 2020! Find it at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Kobo, or Apple Books.
Show Notes
One very important note: we highly recommend doing a thorough search for content warnings for all the books and movies we mention this week.
We love Katee Robert, who we had on as a guest for the menage interstitial. Katee bid on this item at Kennedy Ryan’s Lift 4 Autism auction. It happens every spring, so keep an eye on this page for the 2021 auction if you’d like to pick the topic for a future interstitial.
This week, Katee released Seducing My Guardian, the 4th book in her SUPER HOT Touch of Taboo series. If you'd like to read a morality chain romance written by Katee, we recommend The Bastard's Bargain.
“In springtime, the only pretty ring time” is from Shakespeare’s As You Like It. It's also possible Sarah knows it from Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. She would like you to believe that it's from the former, but we'll leave you to draw your own conclusions. Either way, “If you liked it then you shoulda put a ring on it,” is from Beyonce.
As it turns out, Chicago is a great town for beach volleyball.
It’s hard not to talk about morality chain & dark romance together, but we think they are inverse tropes. The internet definition of Morality Chain is “is a character who is the reason another character is Good.” Jen and Sarah’s current definition is that in morality chain romance, the Love Interest pulls a hero towards humanity and goodness, while in dark romance, the love interest is pulled down into the hero’s lawless world.
Some examples in pop culture are Spike from Buffy and maybe Barney in How I Met Your Motherr. Also, check out a movie called The Professional, where a child (played by Natalie Portman!) befriends the assassin next door. The Jason Statham one with a kid is called Safe.
The Hero’s Journey is very common character archetype in literature and pop culture, but Sarah and Jen are both very taken with Gail Carriger’s description of the alternative archetype, The Heroine’s Journey.
If you want more about morality chain, so many of Kresley’s books from The Immortals After Dark series will work, so please listen to season one! Our favorites are Dark Needs at Night’s Edge, Lothaire, and Sweet Ruin.
We were divided on whether the character has to be a danger to others in order to qualitfy as morality chain. In the Gamemaker series: The Professional is about an assassin who is a danger to others, while in The Player he’s only a danger to himself.
Jen Porter wrote a long thread about what she thinks of as PEA, or problematic ever after, romance.
Mickey is "kind of a Fagin-y" as a character, but without the antisemitism. In interesting historical facts, Dickens rewrote Oliver Twist later in life to remove all anti-Semitic characteristics from Fagin, after he'd been criticized for the portrayal of the character. Of course, it's not that simple. Read more about it from Deborah Epstein Nord.
Scottie is the main character of Managed, and is classified more as grumpy one/sunshine one, which we argue is just morality chain dialed down.
More about how most writers have a “core story."
Next week, we'll be reading You Had me at Hola by Alexis Daria
MUSIC: Cardi B - Money
S02.40: A Kingdom of Dreams by Judith McNaught: A Romance Reader's Romance
It’s the last read-along of Season Two! We’re reading Judith McNaught’s A Kingdom of Dreams, which is the actual book that blooded Sarah when she was wee. This week we’re talking old-school romance, what McNaught was doing with this book and this hero who is so unlike all the heroes who came before him, and why (book) Jennifer is the perfect namesake for (our) Jennifer.
We might not be doing read alongs until August, but that doesn’t mean your TBR won’t still be groaning under the weight of our recommendations — we’ve got a bunch of rec episodes lined up for summer….oh, and did you know Sarah has a book out in three weeks? Order it from Amazon, Kobo, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Books-a-Million or from your local indie, or order it signed from her local indie, WORD Bookstore, and get a special edition Fated Mates sticker with your purchase!
As summer approaches, if you are up for leaving a rating or review for the podcast on your podcasting app, we would be very grateful!
Show Notes
Marty McFly, played by Michael J. Fox, was the main character in an excellent 1985 time-traveling movie called Back to the Future.
Sarah's next book, Daring and the Duke, comes out at the end of the month. Preorder from WORD in Brooklyn and you'll recieve a limited edition yellow Fated Mates sticker.
Whitney, My Love is an early McNaught historical romance that the author changed because in the original text, the hero rapes and horsewhips the heroine. The hero of A Kingdom of Dreams, Royce Westmoreland, is one of Clayton's ancestors, but we think he is McNaught correcting the record on the Alpha hero. In the IAD novella episode, we talked about the changes in Whitney, My Love. Whitney also came up in the Alpha episode that started the season, because it's impossible to talk about the primordial alphas without talking about the early Alpha.
More on the four books that comprise the Westmoreland series.
Who do we talk to get A Kingdom of Dreams on audio? Oh, you can email a request to Audible.
Jen learned about 1497 on Wikipedia. As one does.
Margaret Tudor was Henry VII's eldest daughter, married to James IV of Scotland to bring peace to the border. Fun fact, once James IV died (thanks for nothing, Henry VIII, you were the worst), Margaret acted as Regent until James V of Scotland, but when that didn't work out, she married two other dudes and also staged a coup, so we don't really know why we don't all sing her praise always. Yeah, we do. Patriarchy. Anyway. Sarah didn't learn about Margaret Tudor on Wikipedia, but you can.
All about the bliaut. Sarah would like you to know she looked up bliauts on Wikipedia after we recorded and now she's an expert. High-fives to all Wikipedia editors. Nothing without you.
Tinctures, tonics, and teas is Fated Mates shorthand for historicals where medicine women knew various herbal remedies for preventing or ending pregnancy. Or in this case, causing life-long impotence.
We talked a little bit about the freedom of setting a romance in Medieval times on our Scottish Romance episode, so head over and listen to that if you're interested.
Jen's obsessed with the idea of the Vietnam Hero, but doesn't know where to start. Probably with finishing the Ken Burns Vietnam documentary.
What would Jurgen Klopp say?
While we're talking about Judith McNaught and Wikipedia, do not sleep on her page. Divorce celebrations, Coors Brewing Company tie-ins, the invention of the non-clinch romance cover, moving to Dallas after going there on book tour...it has it all.
Support Black Lives Matter and bail funds in your city or state.
Register to vote. Already registered? Double check.
S02.14: Indigo: Ride the Beverly Jenkins Train
Get ready for Hester, one of Sarah’s favorite heroines of all time — and Beverly Jenkins’s Indigo, which Jen just read for the first time! We’re talking historical romance, the way romances feel important, sex and intimacy, and all the reasons why everyone should read Beverly Jenkins right now.
Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, please leave us a like or a review!
Next week, it’s the second half of our book recommendation, stump Sarah & Jen AMA. The following week we’ll release a tiny little stocking stuffer for our Christmas Day episode, but we’re back in business on January 1, with the seasonally appropriate (at least in title) Born in Ice, by none other than the queen herself, Nora Roberts. Read Born in Ice at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo or your local indie.
Show Notes
Jen now has critic crushes on Diego Baez and Walton Muyumba. Liz Taylor who is kind of a big deal in the book world wrote an amazing book about Chicago's first Mayor Daley called American Pharaoh.
Thanks to the Lincoln RI public library for being awesome.
There's actually a lot of great resources for how to teach slavery to kids, so do better white teachers.
Here at Fated Mates, we are LaQuette stans. Listen to her talk about discomfort and how important it is in her RITA speech last year.
Colson Whitehead's Underground Railroad is an absolute tour de force. Here is a cool site mapping the world of the novel.
If you don't know about America's history of lynching, you should learn all about Bryan Stevenson, who spearheaded the effort to create a Lynching Museum. The site Without Sanctuary preserves the history of these postcards (Content warning on that site for obvious reasons.)
Gone with the Wind is an example of the pervasive and terrible "happy slave" narrative, which appears over and over again. Know and reject this narrative, not just in adult books, but in those written for kids. And while I'm on the subject, that goes for picture books about monkeys, too.
This amazing One Dot One Person map is a stark look at how the legacy of slavery and segregation still impacts where Americans live today.
So you want to read all the books about the LeVeq clan? Start with Through the Storm. and although Sarah said "kids" she meant that Hester and Galen's descendents are the main characters in the Edge of Midnight series. One of our favorite romance people is When Fumni Met Romance, and you should definitley read her talking about her love for Indigo and Beverly Jenkins.
The internet makes it so much easier to read the stories of enslaved people. Along with the rather amazing (but imperfect) WPA interviews, you can read any number of slave narratives. Remember it was illegal to teach slaves to read, so it's an especailly powerful experience to read slave narratives. If you've never read Frederick Douglass, you should, but Jen also recommends Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl by Harriet Jacobs.
If you are looking for more resources to learn about American slavery, the New York times 1619 Project is amazing. If you are a listener, Jen recommends you listen the Yale open course about The Civil War with professor David Blight.
Jen liked an early 80s novel called The Chaneysville Incident, which is about a historian trying to discover the truth about how his family's past intersects with a local legend about the Underground Railroad. Here's a recent interview with author David Bradley when the book was converted to an eBook.
The history of the Underground Railroad is part legend, part myth, and part fact. This site talks specifically about the route people fleeing took north through Michigan on the way to Canada.
Night Song was the first novel by Beverly Jenkins.
All about the Fugitive Slave Act, why it was so terrible, and how we are seeing echoes of it today.
Some interesting sites that talk about indigo cultivation and the role of enslaved people in making the dye. A 2013 book called Red, White, and Black Make Blue discusses the relationship of slavery and indigo production in South Carolina.
A thread from Adriana Herrera about why historical romance must grapple with how problematic white women upheld slavery.
Colorism is an issue that Beverly Jenkins weaves into Indigo.
Looking for more romances with carriage sex? Of course you are.
The Blessings series is a contemporary series by Beverly Jenkins that takes place in the town of Henry Adams, KS.
The Biblical story of Daniel and the Lion's Den is why Galen's nickname is The Black Daniel.
Sex euphamisms, anyone?
Robert E. Lee was pretty terrible.
Jen's favorite novel by Beverly Jenkins is Forbidden, which was recently optioned for TV! Sarah reviewed it for the Washington Post in 2016. Jen has no idea what movie she saw with a character who was passing, but Sarah recommends Nella Larsen's 1929 Passing.
In 2018, they made a movie of Deadly/Sexy. Fun fact, the actor in the movie, Travis Cure, was then the cover model for her next book, Rebel.
The book recommended by Walton Muyumba is called Wayward Lives, Beautiful Experiments.
Buy Fated Mates buttons from Kelly at the shop on Jen's site, and Sarah's t-shirts and other swag here.
Jan 1, 2020, we'll be discussing Born in Ice by Nora Roberts.
S02.12: Lord of Scoundrels: Reel or be Reeled
It may be Thanksgiving week in the US, but that didn’t stop us from recording a monster episode about one of our (and all of Romance’s) favorite books of all time! It’s Lord of Scoundrels week! We’re talking gloves and fans and prologues and why Jessica is one of the best heroines of all time! All that, and Sarah is on a rant about Byron…so don’t miss it!
Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, please leave us a like or a review!
In two weeks, we’re moving across the pond to Beverly Jenkins’s Indigo, with one of Sarah’s favorite heroines ever—Hester Wyatt, Underground Railroad conductor! Read Indigo at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo or your local indie.
Show Notes
Lord of Scoundrels has its own wikipedia page, which in case you're curious, is kind of unusual.
Just look at this gorgeous Lord of Scoundrels embroidery.
If you haven't listened to our episode on Dreaming of You, what are you waiting for?
Maybe you want to find out what you first ordered in your Amazon account.
Jessica Trent is not a Mary Sue.
Erin from Heaving Bosoms is famous for not liking epilogues, but it's a pretty good reason why. But prologues are fine.
You've been lawyered is from How I Met Your Mother.
Sarah wrote the prologue to a new edition of The Transformation of Philip Jettan.
Love's Sweet Arrow is a romance-only bookstore in the Chicago suburbs. It's awesome.
Gentle Rogue started too late.
More about Russian religous icons, but maybe you want to buy some.
The gloves scene in the Age of Innocence movie. All that repressed longing from Daniel Day Lewis! In the book, it's this chapter where Newland Archer "bent over, unbuttoned her tight brown glove, and kissed her palm as if he had kissed a relic."
If you want to know about demon seals and the Wroth brothers, then listen to season one of Fated Mates.
What does it even mean to dance a waltz in the Continental style? Probably not this Continental-style.
The Beverly Jenkins book where the heroine shoots the hero is Tempest.
Reading the banns and a list of people who were married at Saint George Hanover Square.
You'll be shocked to know that Jen has some theories about internal vs. external conflict.
When they're at the wrestling match, Dain says his friend could have "stayed comfortably at home and pumped his wife."
She Walks in Beauty Like the Night is a glorious poem, but that doesn't make Byron any less of a scumbag. That Ada Lovelace was Byron's daughter is kind of wild, but we're glad she's known for being her own person. Despite Sarah trying to create an authorship question for Byron, that's not really a thing. There's no such person as the Duke of Summerville. Jen just made that up.
If you're interested in The Romantics, you can find Jen's old college syllabus here. Lots of Wordsworth, but no Bryon, which is just fine. But we still love the way Loretta Chase used Don Juan in the text of Lord of Scoundrels.
Friend of the pod Adriana Herrera has been reading Lord of Scoundrels for the first time and her tweets about it are honestly the most amazing thing.
Maybe you want to buy some romancelandia buttons or some of Sarah's t-shirts.
Coming up next on December 11, 2019, Indigo by Beverly Jenkins
S02.07: That's Spelled J-E-H-N: Dark Lover
Woof, you guys. Woof. This week we’re talking a whole different kind of Vampires (not a single one chained to a radiator…we love u, Conrad) — with JR Ward’s Dark Lover — the first in the Black Dagger Brotherhood Series! We’re talking a LOT this week about toxic masculinity, about the world post 9/11, about what we expect from heroines, about the entire BDB series, and about what the heck is going on in these books. We also get all the titles wrong, as usual.
Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, please leave us a like or a review!
In two weeks, we’re getting more current! The read is Sarah’s Pick, Sierra Simone’s Priest, which is an erotic romance in first-person hero POV, featuring a priest and an exotic dancer (NB: She is not Catholic). If sex in church is your concern, maybe skip this one, but also know that there’s a lot fo religious allegory in here that is fascinating and brilliant. Get it at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo or your local indie.
Show Notes
JR Ward's first pen name was Jessica Bird.
Despite Jen's joke about Proust, she's never actually read him.
Some of the most famous vampire books in fiction were Anne Rice's Interview with a Vampire and Queen of the Damned. And let's not forget Twilight.
In romance, you should check out the Argeneau series by Lynsay Sands, or any number of books by Jeaniene Frost. Nalini Singh's Guild Hunters series has a vampire hunter. Sherrilyn Kenyon also has lots of books in this category. In urban fantasy, of course there was the Sookie Stackhouse series, and it's TV adaptation True Blood.
In fact, the 90s were full of vampires in the movies and on TV: Keanu Reeves in Bram Stoker's Dracula, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and if you've never seen it, the opening scene from Blade that Jen mentioned.
Sarah would like you to consider the fact that very few people know who Mary Shelley is, but Francis Ford Coppola made a blockbuster movie with Bram Stoker's name in the actual title because patriarchy is a helluva drug.
Is it romance or urban fantasy?
The JR Ward interview was in Louisville Magazine.
The Wicked Wallflowers interviewed JR Ward and it's just terrific.
Jen read all the RITAs, and she reviewed Consumed in the romantic suspense category and Dearest Ivie in the paranormal category.
All about sawed-off shotguns.
Sarah said John Michael, but OF COURSE she meant John Matthew. Maybe you should read Lover John Matthew and Xhex.
Mary Bly's article about the Black Dagger Brotherhood appears in New Approaches to Popular Romance Fiction.
The Lessers as Incels.
Caldwell is like the world of Gotham... and why it seems so nihilistic.
Beth and Wrath's story continues in The King, or as we like to call it here at Fated Mates, Lover Wrath and Beth Part 2.
It's Lover Phury and Cormia, and then Lover Rhevenge and Ehlena, and Lover Quinn and Blay.
The Susan Faludi book Sarah mentioned is called The Terror Dream: Myth and Misogyny in an Insecure America.
We don't think Beth is a Mary Sue, and JR Ward doesn't either.
A guide to the waves of feminism.
Wellsie is maybe a stand in for Smith vs. Wellesley.
Jen was reading Native Son in college when her professor told her blindness is always a symbol. Oedipus blinded himself, and oracles are seers are often blind. Daredevil is blind and can still kick your ass. The other most famous Blind King Jen could find is in Assassin's Creed.
Next up is Priest by Sierra Simone.
S02.06: Cinnamon Roll Heroes with Andie Christopher
We heard you! You wanted to talk about Cinnamon Roll Heroes, so here we are, and we’re bringing in an expert on the topic (in real life and in fiction) — Andie Christopher. We’re talking about the evolution and popularization of the beta in the 90s, why they became such a powerful force then, why they’re back now, and why they work so well for some readers! We’ll also talk about dating in 2019, recommend some books (obviously), and talk about Andie’s upcoming, Not the Girl You Marry, which is out November 12!
Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, please leave us a like or a review!
Next week, we’re going back to paranormal with the first book in JR Ward’s Black Dagger Brotherhood series, Dark Lover. It’s a whole ride. Strap in. Get it at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo or your local indie (it’s currently only $2.99 in ebook!).
Show Notes
We're so excited to have Andie on the podcast -- her book, Not the Girl You Marry, is out November 12th. Preorder now!
Do you know the importance of a Sky Pager?
The Pegging Crew is a nickname we use with love for the folks who bought a change to decide a Fated Mates interstitial topic.
If you're looking for romances with the Great British Bake Off energy, Sarah recommends Louisa Edwards.-
Last summer, Jen interviewed Andie for Kirkus.
Nancy Pelosi is taking care of business.
Olivia Dade has a great list of cinnamon roll heroes, but this piece from The Onion originated the term.
The Simone Scale is very different from the Clayborn Curve.
I guess you can decide for yourself if Father Bell is a cinnamon roll (whispers: especially because this will be a season 2 book that blooded us).
The only person who can ask for flowers is Barbra Streisand.
Every time Jen mentions a fainting couch, she's thinking of this most excellent pinterest board by friend of the pod @bandherbooks.
Some really thoughtful tweets that were in response to our alpha episode: Charlotte talking about lust and care, and Cat talking about baggage.
The original stern brunch daddy tweet.
Toxic masculinity is like acid rain, not rain rain.
The "I'm baby" meme.
Jess & Marie are pretty great.
Andie said Gen Z doesn't fuck, but it sounds like they just don't date.
The romance trailblazer video from this year's RITAs is so great.
TRANSCRIPT
Sarah MacLean 0:00 / #
Okay, so we're just popping this in at the beginning of the cinnamon / # roll interstitial with Andie Christopher, give us a couple minutes, you guys Andie's on her way. But we have a plan and we're very excited about it.
Jennifer Prokop 0:13 / #
It's really exciting. Sarah made me try it. So we know it works.
Sarah MacLean 0:18 / #
It's true. So we have set up a voicemail box for you guys.For old school level, like you can basically page
Jennifer Prokop 0:30 / #
Oh my god, it's like A Tribe Called Quest song.
A Tribe Called Quest 0:33 / #
Enter your Telephone number or other numeric message.
Sarah MacLean 0:43 / #
So we're going to give you a telephone number, a United States telephone number for international listeners. And you're going to get to call and it's going to go right to voicemail. And you will hear my voice asking you to tell us about the book that blooded you, Jen, what do we want them to tell us?
Jennifer Prokop 1:03 / #
Okay, so I think here's the important thing. We are hopefully going to actually play these audio clips on future podcasts. Yeah,
Sarah MacLean 1:11 / #
you're by giving us voicemail, by leaving us a voicemail you are consenting to us putting it on the podcast.
Jennifer Prokop 1:18 / #
Yeah. So I think it's really important that you probably should just say you're like your first name. You don't have to give us your full name, address please or phone number. Please don't do that.
Sarah MacLean 1:26 / #
Please don't.
Jennifer Prokop 1:27 / #
None of us would like any of your data we we want you to be pleasantly anonymous. Anyway. So you're going to tell us your name. If you would like to-- where you live. That's kind of fun when you started reading romance, some small biographical details, I think to get the flavor. And then I want you to tell us the book and it's really great if its title and author.
Sarah MacLean 1:49 / #
Yes, please. And tell us why.
Jennifer Prokop 1:51 / #
Yeah, like Sarah story where she read Gentle Rogue her desk, right? I think what we're looking for is not like your review of the book, but your memory of the reading of it. right?
Sarah MacLean 2:02 / #
We're interested in like the prime on this of this book. Why this is the book that brought you to romance and kept you here? Um, so that is the story. That is what we're doing. The telephone number is [redacted]. And we are not putting this-- you have to write it down, you guys. We're not putting on the internet because the last thing I need is like cranky readers leaving me voicemail about my books. Don't leave me voicemail about my books.
Jennifer Prokop 2:41 / #
You know what I'll say? Yeah, it's if it's, if it's anything other than like, kind of what we described, we'll probably just delete it. And you know, we're not trying to be mean, but this isn't, you know, there's lots of ways to talk to us on Twitter or whatever. This is really specifically the books to blooded us hotline.
Sarah MacLean 3:01 / #
Okay, we're gonna give you the telephone number during episodes too, but like I said, we're not gonna put it in show notes. We're not gonna tweet it. It's really it's just between all us all US friends.Yeah, you know, 10,000 closest friends. So if you leave us-- pegging crew! Don't leave us messages about pegging.
Jennifer Prokop 3:32 / #
Oh my god. I'm excited about all of it.
Sarah MacLean 3:36 / #
I'm really excited to I can't wait. Tell us about the books that you love-- from the past from the present. Call multiple times. Tell us about multiple books.
Jennifer Prokop 3:48 / #
Sure. And you know, we're not sure exactly how we're how we're going to use this yet. So you know, we don't know exactly how it'll work. So it could be that we get inundated with calls and keep it up for a week or two and take it down. It could be something that goes on for a long time. So no promises anybody, maybe we don't, but we just think it'll be really fun to hear. Yes,
Sarah MacLean 4:09 / #
this could be a very big mistake to we haven't talked, but
Jennifer Prokop 4:13 / #
I don't think it'll be a mistake. I'm just worried it's too much. Like we won't be able to get everybody on right. I mean, you know, you guys seem cool though. I think
Sarah MacLean 4:21 / #
I think we're all gonna we're all grown ups. We're all going to be able to, you know, hold hold firm. I'm very excited that I'm making you all do something old fashioned, like pick up the phone and leave us a voicemail like a a civilized human being.
Jennifer Prokop 4:38 / #
No dick pics.
Sarah MacLean 4:41 / #
Note Yeah, impossible to leave us a dick pic.
Sarah MacLean 4:45 / #
Okay, And we can't wait to hear your voices in our ear holes.
Jennifer Prokop 4:55 / #
Yes, that's right.
Sarah MacLean 4:57 / #
Stay tuned for Andie Christopher and cinnamon / # rolls.
Sarah MacLean 5:02 / #
Well, we made a lot of people mad.
Jennifer Prokop 5:06 / #
They haven't even heard the Derek Craven episode yet, so I don't even know what the hell's going on Sarah
Sarah MacLean 5:13 / #
Well, welcome to Fated Mates everyone it is a beta cinnamon / # roll soft hero week. It's a little late Great British Bake Off.
Jennifer Prokop 5:26 / #
We actually just got an amazing-- someone tweeted us right now and was like, Is there a book where it's essentially set during the Great British Bake Off? Only I don't watch that show. And so it said #GBBO, and I didn't know what it was and I go look it up. So I'm like the wrong person to ask I guess.
Sarah MacLean 5:45 / #
I am the exact right person to ask about that. I don't know about a baking one. But Louisa Edwards did a like Top Chef style romance series which we will play in show notes. More importantly, we should introduce our guest.
Sarah MacLean 6:05 / #
Before we're too far down the rabbit hole. Welcome, Andie Christopher.
Sarah MacLean 6:12 / #
we are so excited to have you. I can't believe it's taken us until season two.
Andie Christopher 6:17 / #
It's it's taken a long time, but we did record that one episode that Just didn't make it.
Sarah MacLean 6:24 / #
It's actually not that it didn't make it. It's that someone was terrible at recording themselves.
Jennifer Prokop 6:31 / #
Wait, you have no idea everybody Sarah, I'm about to tell you a story you don't even know only Andie and I know-- which is I fucked up the recording the first time it was the three of us and actually accidentally had this master reverb thing on, which was essentially it made me sound like I was in a soccer stadium. And then-- here's what you don't know. I also recorded an interview with Andie because I interviewed her for Kirkus earlier this summer, and at literally 10 minutes before our scheduled phone call. My child-- who we were in Dallas for his volleyball tournament-- played volleyball day then ate a bunch of stuff and then literally barfed all over the hotel room. And I had to clean it all up, and then call and Andie and be like, "Hi, sorry. Thank God you're not in this room with me because it's disgusting." So I'm going to go with Third time's a charm.
Andie Christopher 7:22 / #
I hope so. I hope so.
Jennifer Prokop 7:24 / #
Nobody's gonna barf right now. And I'm not in a soccer stadium.
Sarah MacLean 7:29 / #
I'm really glad and also it's a good day, you guys. It's a really good day, because Nancy Pelosi finally got her shit together and was like, let's impeach the motherfucker.
Jennifer Prokop 7:45 / #
I mean, Yes. I need her to be hard as nails right now.
Andie Christopher 7:50 / #
She was bringing the Big Mom energy during that, during that press conference. She was bringing the "I told you once I told you twice. This is the third time and now we're done."
Sarah MacLean 8:05 / #
You don't get to go to prom. Yeah, if only we actually were prom. And, uh, but basically, what better thing for us to do tonight than to talk about soft, good, sweet heroes who make us happy to be in the world.
Jennifer Prokop 8:27 / #
So true.
Sarah MacLean 8:29 / #
So to a few weeks ago, we released our alpha episode. It was the first interstitial of season two because we decided it was time for us to come, we were going to come hard for all of you with season two. And Jen and I put our stakes in the ground on alphas. And we had, I think, a really thoughtful conversation about alphas and why they exist. And a lot of people on Twitter and in other places asked us a lot of really great questions about: why alphas? and Why not betas? and why not cinnamon / # rolls? And first of all, I just want to repeat something that I feel like we said a bunch on on that alpha episode but clearly needs repeating, and that is that at no point did Jen and I say that romance novels can't exist without alphas. And at no point did Jen and I say that alphas and betas are the only descriptors of heroes. In fact, I think at multiple points we said, this is sort of a dumb way of articulating heroes because they should be more right than one thing. They should have nuance.
Jennifer Prokop 9:43 / #
I don't even know if we said that. I mean, I feel bad. We say it to each other all the time. But on that particular note,
Sarah MacLean 9:48 / #
we definitely did. I went back and checked. I said like good writing requires the hero to be nuance,
Jennifer Prokop 9:54 / #
yeah. characters to be nuanced.
Sarah MacLean 9:57 / #
Exactly. So but what's really the reason why we're here So Jen and I had already started talking about Okay, we're going to have to do, we're going to do a second episode, and we're going to do an episode that'll be about kind of the softer hero. And I don't know, I'm really glad Andie's with us because I think one of the really valuable things for us to talk about, maybe at the very beginning of this, is what makes a cinnamon / # roll versus a beta. I'm not sure I understand all the terms. So can we do that first and really sort of establish what we're talking about? And then I want to talk a little bit about history. And then I want Andie to talk about her brilliant thoughts on why cinnamon / # rolls are working now in a way that maybe they weren't a year, a decade ago or five years ago.
Jennifer Prokop 10:44 / #
So I feel like we should talk about like the origin of that cinnamon / # roll like it comes from The Onion, right? Isn't that what it is? Like?
Andie Christopher 10:53 / #
It's like, it's like this sweet cinnamon / # roll of a human is too good and sweet for this world.
Jennifer Prokop 10:57 / #
Yes. And there's Also a really funny tweet. I should find that-- Yeah, I think it's funny because a lot of people like why cinnamon / # rolls? And I think it's actually a it comes from this Onion piece and I think it's just sort of pervasively became this really funny thing that everyone just really glommed on to as being a great way to describe a certain kind of character. And the fact that, I feel like one of, a pioneering person in terms of like defining it was Olivia dade. And we linked to her list of cinnamon / # roll heroes a bunch of times. But what she says is, "Cinnamon / # roll heroes are supportive, kind people who do their best even when they make mistakes." And so that is what it is that she defines as being a cinnamon / # roll hero. And then she made out, got a whole bunch of people to crowdsource the list and so if you're looking for heroes like this, after we talked about it today, we will link to this list because it is amazing and has, I don't know, 70 or 100 books on it that you might want to check out.
Andie Christopher 12:07 / #
Yeah, I think a couple of my books are on that too, but I'm not sure if those books are quite accurately as cinnamon / # roll-y as I thought they were.
Jennifer Prokop 12:14 / #
interesting.
Andie Christopher 12:15 / #
I mean, I think they are just not quite... I'm not going at.. I'm not on the Simone scale. I'm somewhere on the Claybourne curve.
Sarah MacLean 12:29 / #
I'm gonna go ahead and say that cinnamon / # roll heroes don't even make Simone scale. Her zero point on the access is Darcy, who is not a cinnamon / # roll. So,
Andie Christopher 12:43 / #
Okay, but I was thinking about this today. And I think Father Bell [hero of PRIEST by Sierra Simone] is in some senses.
Sarah MacLean 12:51 / #
What are you saying right now?
Jennifer Prokop 12:57 / #
You Gotta start over again. Time Out. Recalibrate.
Sarah MacLean 13:02 / #
Oh my god no
Jennifer Prokop 13:03 / #
Andie!
Sarah MacLean 13:04 / #
I'm pretty sure Sierra Simone is in London right now at Rare London, and I feel like she just woke up at like 5am and was like there's a disturbance.
Andie Christopher 13:15 / #
she would love me for saying something blasphemous...
Sarah MacLean 13:18 / #
But I will hear your arguments. Miss Christopher.
Andie Christopher 13:24 / #
Okay. For me, the cinnamon / # roll hero's number one priority is the heroine's emotional, mental, and or spiritual well being, physical well being. So that kind of overrides everything else and I think, Father Bell, because we're so in his head, expends a lot of the conflict of the book is trying to put the heroine's emotional, physical and spiritual well being over his own wants and desires that he has attempted unsuccessfully to sublimate.
Sarah MacLean 14:04 / #
Okay, so I think this is really interesting because I guess that all makes that all makes sense to me but what I don't understand is like how is that different than what any romance hero wants? Like? I think about Derek Craven, right? Who was our first book of the of the season or frankly most Kresley Cole heroes-- I mean not, okay, pbviously not Lothaire. But like, you know, there are others. Like all those werewolf heroes. I mean like werewolves...are they, are werewolf cinnamon / # rolls?
Andie Christopher 14:45 / #
I think the were-- of Kresley levels-- the werewolf in "A Hunger Like No Other" I'm his name is escaping me right now. He's not a cinnamon / # roll, I would say, and like MacReive is not a cinnamon / # roll
Jennifer Prokop 14:59 / #
See! Because I'm like, none of them are, Andie! What the hell are you talking about?
Sarah MacLean 15:03 / #
She's not wrong. Because what about about Lucia and...
Andie Christopher 15:06 / #
Declan.
Jennifer Prokop 15:07 / #
Declan! He's the vivisector!
Andie Christopher 15:11 / #
Sorry!
Sarah MacLean 15:15 / #
Well, we're the same way with all those heroes. Lucia and help, help me.
Jennifer Prokop 15:21 / #
Garreth.
Sarah MacLean 15:21 / #
in the Amazon
Andie Christopher 15:22 / #
Garreth. Yes,
Sarah MacLean 15:23 / #
Garrett?
Jennifer Prokop 15:24 / #
Garreth. Is it Garreth?
Sarah MacLean 15:26 / #
Yeah. Is he a cinnamon / # roll?
Andie Christopher 15:29 / #
I think he's a little bit of a cinnamon / # roll.
Jennifer Prokop 15:31 / #
I feel like I have to log off and go lay on a fainting couch. I don't understand anything anybody? Like, Oh,
Sarah MacLean 15:40 / #
All right. So this is really interesting-- somebody, but somebody else tweeted at us. A person named Charlotte, @romansdegare on Twitter, tweeted "I've still got that Fated Mates episode on the brain as I read "Damaged Goods" and starting to wonder if cinnamon / # roll conflict is often I'm caring for you emotionally so I can't lust after you. While alpha conflict is the reverse. I'm lusting after you so I can't care for you." And Jen and I sort of discussed this privately. And like there's something maybe here this, and you said it too. I think Andie when you said: you care about her like emotional and spiritual well being. Then you said, the third thing you said was physical, and I wonder if that's part of it. Like, where the relationship starts versus where it ends.
Jennifer Prokop 16:39 / #
So here's here's what I'm going to suggest, because I right now think-- as my blueprint-- is when I think of cinnamon / # rolls, to me, the pinnacle of cinnamon / # roll-dom is "Rafe" by Rebecca Weatherspoon. And I kind of felt, I literally was like, "I should reread part of it today to like, make sure I'm all on point." And I fell right back into the book. And I think there's a really interesting part. And there's also a really interesting thread someone tweeted us from her, a woman named Kat C, And what she said is cinnamon / # roll heroes are, not cinnamon / # rolls, but she "likes reading books where people are dealing with their baggage in not so aggressive ways." And I think what "Rafe" -- so there's this part in "Rafe" where he is essentially interviewing for the job to be her nanny, Sloan's nanny or her twin girls bailed-- literally, it's like horrifying as a mother-- she basically comes home and finds her six year old girls home alone. And the nanny left the keys to the car and the house keys with a note that said, "I quit. I just don't want to do this anymore." So she's really scrambling to find someone and she ends up getting Rafe, who's been essentially nannying, He's like in his early 30s, for like 10 or 12 years. And Rafe, at the interview says to her, "Um, I think we Have a problem. I've never, I've never nannied for a single mom I'm this attracted to before." And he just has, he's a grown up who can lay it out on the table and put it in front of her, as opposed to.... I don't know, like, stomping around and not admitting he has feelings. So to me a cinnamon / # roll is like, I have feelings, and I actually am aware of them. And I know what to do with them. I don't know you guys like. And the thing is, that to me is the it's because of course, alphas care for people! We talked about that. The difference I think, is
Sarah MacLean 18:36 / #
the emotion. The emotion sneaks up on an alpha.
Jennifer Prokop 18:39 / #
and a cinnamon / # roll person is like, Yes, I have feelings. Duh, who doesn't. And I'll tell you what, it's funny. I'm going to say one more thing. I there are parts of this book. I didn't do a lot of highlighting. There's this one part where they sort of like they kiss and she's like, "I'm not sure I really want to do this" and he's like, "okay, we're gonna leave it up to you." And then he's like, "What do you want?" And she says, "I want you to make this easy on me." And I was like, there you go. He was like, you're right. His communication skills are through the roof. That to me is what makes a cinnamon / # roll a cinnamon / # roll. Being able to communicate,
Andie Christopher 19:17 / #
yeah, can use this words as opposed to like, I want to punch someone.
Jennifer Prokop 19:20 / #
Okay. And in the case of brief, also his cock fine.
Andie Christopher 19:24 / #
I sort of reject the premise that any romance hero that I'm really going to fall in love with does not have a quasi-magical penis. Like, I want I want to be like, I'm vomiting out unicorns the next day thinking about the hero and what he can do with his magical member.
Jennifer Prokop 19:53 / #
I'm just giggling
Sarah MacLean 19:54 / #
I don't think you're alone in this.
Andie Christopher 19:57 / #
I just 100%... I hate, I don't like it when a book has an awkward sex scene between the hero and the heroine. That is the opposite of what my ID wants. Like my ID wants him to like, bang it out, make her see stars
Jennifer Prokop 20:14 / #
into next week!
Andie Christopher 20:15 / #
into next week, every single time. I need it. That's just it's a baseline.
Jennifer Prokop 20:24 / #
Rafe can get it, you guys! I just want you to know. I think part of the reason Rafe is particularly-- I don't read a whole lot of cinnamon / # roll books. This one really worked for me. And I think there are a couple reasons why. One is because I hate cooking and cleaning. And I did not like raising my child. I love my son, you guys, but I didn't... those years when he was really young were really hard for me. I still hate cooking and cleaning and always well. But the idea that a competent man is going to appear and like take over those tasks for me in my house. And also Fuck me into next week. Hello. Sign me up. I mean, I'm sorry. Maybe that's not everyone's fantasy, but I'm going to tell you right now. It is hot. It worked for me.
Sarah MacLean 21:11 / #
Okay, so here's my thing, right? So I was trying to come up with cinnamon / # rolls, who I have loved. And this obviously is a challenge for me. But I, here are two who I've loved. And ironically, it's the same trope, right?
Jennifer Prokop 21:31 / #
Okay, interesting.
Sarah MacLean 21:32 / #
I loved the hero and Helen Hoang's "The Kiss Quotient."
Andie Christopher 21:38 / #
Love him.
Sarah MacLean 21:39 / #
And I loved the hero in Claire Kent's "Escorted." And in both of those cases, we're talking about soft heroes, who are all the things that you are saying-- Able to vocalize emotion, able to understand like their emotional relationship with the world, They've been through therapy, or they have these big families. But at the same time, they're male escorts and highly-- Here you are, Jen--able to bang you into next week
Sarah MacLean 22:25 / #
But also I think there's something, but at the same time, like in that particular dynamic, I think the reason why both these heroes work well for me, is because there is sort of, there is a power structure here. Like they are deeply competent, and sort of teaching the heroine something. And so maybe they're not cinnamon / # rolls at all. I don't know are they?
Jennifer Prokop 22:53 / #
Clearly we're the three wrong people to be talking about this.
Andie Christopher 22:57 / #
I mean, I definitely think--I I haven't read "Escorted." But I definitely think Michael in "The Kiss Quotient" is a cinnamon / # roll. Um,
Sarah MacLean 23:06 / #
I mean, he's got that big family. He cares so much about his sisters and his mom. I mean, He's amazing.
Andie Christopher 23:13 / #
I think there's an interesting sort of layer of conflicts there because like, I think at first, he's not trying to let her into that part of him. So he is a cinnamon / # roll, but he has this, this sort of layer that he keeps between himself, his true self, and his clients. And so I think, you know, part of the conflict and part of them overcoming their conflict is she penetrates that. And the way I think, yeah, so it makes sense,
Jennifer Prokop 23:44 / #
you guys, I'm doing my best.
Andie Christopher 23:48 / #
It's my... I think, penetrate is the right word, because like she's a little bit sort of the alpha in that, in that power dynamic. She really, she gets under his skin. You know, I think in a way, more quickly than... and then he gets under hers.
Sarah MacLean 24:11 / #
Yeah, it's just it's a really interesting question because... so it takes us, So that is the second piece of the question is, is a cinnamon / # roll and a beta the same? Or like is that even worth having -- like do betas even exist? But then I think they kind of do, right? So we talked a little bit about the history of the alpha when we talked about alphas, and we're doing a lot of conversational romance history as we do this season. And so I think it's valuable for us to talk about the history of the beta, right? And again, I think it's important and I just want to qualify when we talk about the history and we say like early books, or we say "the first" right, we're not obviously it's almost never the actual first
Jennifer Prokop 24:58 / #
Yeah, right.
Sarah MacLean 24:59 / #
Like the last six months of my life have been researching romance novels for the RITA award ceremony and Andie was doing that with me, and the most illuminating thing about it was that every time we thought we'd found the first like, five days later, we found an earlier first. So, I think we need to talk about betas and we need to talk about Julia Quinn because while she may not have written the first beta, she definitely is responsible for the popularizing of the beta. And that is because she wrote the Bridgerton series which, if you haven't heard of it, you soon will because Shonda Rhimes is turning it into a Netflix series literally as we speak. And the Bridgertons were this kind of, so Julia had written a couple of books beforehand, but sat down and sort of and wrote this really big boisterous family. Eight children who were named in alphabetical order, and they lived in, they were the children of a viscount. And they lived with their single, their widowed mother, in like a big house in London and they had a big country house and they sort of had these like, bright sparkling dialogue... scenes filled with sparkling dialogue and like, not a ton of plot happens in these books. It begins with a book called "The Duke and I." The plot of "the Duke and I," it's a very streamlined, straightforward plot. It doesn't have a lot of like, complex twists and turns and it doesn't have to because the dialogue is so beautiful and the characters are so bright. There's something very soft and wonderful about these books. But what's interesting is that prior to Julia-- historicals looked like, I mean, literally looks like Derek Craven, right? They, they look like, like these big bananas historicals. And then Julia came in and she wrote this family that was something very different. And the first Bridgerton book, which was "The Duke and I" was published in 2000. And I've spoken to I checked this data with Julia before we recorded because I wanted, I have a theory and I wanted to make sure that it checked out. And she confirmed that "The Duke and I" and "The Viscount Who Loved Me" and "An Offer From a Gentleman," which were published in 2000, 2000, and 2001, we're all very, did very well but like did not blow the doors off. "The Duke and I" did not come out like "50 Shades," although often we think about that as being one of those books now. In fact, the fourth book in the series, which is "Romancing Mr. Bridgerton" is the book that sort of really was the sort of leap into huge for that series. And that book came out in 2002. And I have a theory that, you know, we've talked on this on this podcast and I've talked a lot in the world about post 9/11. There being this kind of boom in paranormal because readers were looking for these like big, huge alphas who could literally save the universe. And they were like, that was safety in fear and sort of existential fear that Americans were feeling post 9/11. But I'm actually wondering if at the same time, we weren't also going through a period where books were getting softer. And there was room for these like soft heroes who were the antithesis of every romance hero we'd seen before. And I'm wondering if we're seeing that now, too. The sort of rise of dark romance on one side, these kinds of like, truly bananas books that are taking the finger on one side, and something else entirely that's happening now in the world.
Andie Christopher 29:13 / #
I -think you're right. I think that actually that jives with my theory of the cinnamon / # roll and why they're appealing
Sarah MacLean 29:21 / #
so do that.
Andie Christopher 29:23 / #
Okay, so I think they're particularly appealing to sort of millennial and Gen Z. single women, or women who have recently been dating, because the cis hetero men that we are dating are fucking terrible.
Jennifer Prokop 29:43 / #
I'm Sorry I laughed.
Sarah MacLean 29:44 / #
Break it down for us Andie
Andie Christopher 29:46 / #
all we want is a nice guy, who we don't have to raise, who doesn't hate us because we don't want to have sex with them right away. Or doesn't think we're a slut if we do who can use his words and cares about whether we have an orgasm-- in a larger sense of than what it says about his own ego. Someone who can actually be a partner instead of someone who is going to destroy your like--who's gonna take your finger. But I think on the other, on the other side of that, you also if you don't if you're dating a lot of, you know, softer gentlemen, who can't make a plan to save their lives. There's an appeal to reading about a man who wants you so much he will, he will plan an abduction. And I think this was like the first thing I said..
Sarah MacLean 29:56 / #
He will plan...nice
Andie Christopher 30:39 / #
..to Kristin Ashley and I did make her laugh. I was like, I think the appeal of like abduction fiction because I think she was talking about alpha heroes. Like, at least this guy can plan a date.
Jennifer Prokop 31:06 / #
Oh my god,
Sarah MacLean 31:08 / #
don't abduct women, male listeners!
Andie Christopher 31:12 / #
Do not, don't abduct women, but, you know, make a dinner reservation. Don't say, yeah, like where do you want to go? say I want to try this restaurant-- What do you think? it's all about the balance.
Jennifer Prokop 31:26 / #
Can I ask a question? I'm going to throw it out there. I, I do not read, I don't read much inspirational romance unless it's written by Piper Huguley. But I am wondering if the rise of Amish romance, and sort of Christian romance, around the same time-- because my understanding is it's also came about at the same time. If cinnamon / # rolls are essentially a secular version of of a like a more...Like a inspirational hero?
Sarah MacLean 32:05 / #
I don't know. I don't know and I don't know enough about inspirational to be able to speak really thoughtfully on it.
Jennifer Prokop 32:13 / #
I mean, well, maybe we'll just throw it out there for our listeners to do
Sarah MacLean 32:16 / #
if you do. I would love to hear that. You know, Andie thinks that Sierra Simone is out there writing betas.
Andie Christopher 32:24 / #
I didn't say he wasa Beta, I said he was like a little bit of a cinnamon / # roll.
Sarah MacLean 32:30 / #
He's the Conrad Wroth of...
Jennifer Prokop 32:32 / #
Yeah, yeah. He's gonna use that icing for Lub, I mean, I don't know.
Andie Christopher 32:37 / #
Can we talk about stern brunch Daddies.
Jennifer Prokop 32:39 / #
Oh, yeah, sure.
Andie Christopher 32:41 / #
Okay, so this is this is all Sarah's fault.
Sarah MacLean 32:44 / #
It's Andie's genius, though.
Andie Christopher 32:47 / #
Yeah, I did come up with the term. So Sarah posted this picture of Oscar Isaac sitting at like a table, at what looks like a restaurant, like holding a fork and like staring intently at the camera, and she's like, okay, Andie, I see him now. AI was like, Oh, I get what you like you like a stern brunch daddy. A guy who is gonna make sure your Mimosa never goes empty, but then he'll like spank you until you cry later.
Jennifer Prokop 33:11 / #
Sure, sure.
Sarah MacLean 33:13 / #
I mean, he would never allow you to be seated by the kitchen.
Andie Christopher 33:16 / #
Never. Like never he wants to talk to the manager.
Sarah MacLean 33:21 / #
It's true. This is only because I have Chris Evans blindness, meaning if he doesn't look Stern, I don't see him. I'm unable to see him and I have that problem with Oscar Isaac too, because I feel like if he doesn't look Stern, I don't even know what I'm looking at us like a blank face.
Andie Christopher 33:39 / #
Yeah, I mean, he has to serve up a little bit of Derek Craven for you to feel it.
Sarah MacLean 33:43 / #
Precisely. Which is why we're doing this podcast, this episode, because I don't I truly want to understand it. Because it's interesting and I think that what we're coming to is that it is in actual fact a exactly two sides of the same coin. Because everything that, you know, every way that we're articulating this in terms of like care and comfort and protection-- or not protection-- but care and comfort and like ease, right, like softness is ultimately what we want from the alpha on the other side. But it's it's almost like we're talking about when you get to see it in the book, like,
Andie Christopher 33:44 / #
Yeah,
Sarah MacLean 33:44 / #
do you see the transformation in the book? And if you do, it's like that. Then you've started as you know, I'm air quoting. You can't see it, but
Andie Christopher 34:40 / #
right.
Jennifer Prokop 34:41 / #
I don't know. I. I feel like because where
Sarah MacLean 34:45 / #
does the transformation come from the storm brunch?
Andie Christopher 34:47 / #
He just is
Jennifer Prokop 34:48 / #
I feel like cinnamon / # role heroes don't transform--- I feel like heroines do. Their romantic partners transform not them.
Sarah MacLean 34:56 / #
So when you think about Rafe, what's the transformation in the book?
Jennifer Prokop 35:00 / #
It's not, that's, okay. So I think the transformation in the book is for the heroine who in this case her ex husband is real dirtbag. And this is it's the only man she's ever been with. And so to be with Rafe to be with someone who respects, her who--she's this amazing surgeon, right? Who, who she can say, "I want you to make this easy for me" and he listens to her. I mean, it is just a transformitive-- like Andie was saying-- it's a transformative experience for her because she has been used to men disrespecting her and now she does not have to suffer that in her home. Right? And, and, and deep dicking into next week. I mean, this guy really knows how to take care of her in every way. So, but he, I do not see him as being a character who really undergoes change. He is--
Sarah MacLean 35:51 / #
Would we say like, they're, they're perfect from the start? Because Michael in "The Kiss Quotient" is pretty fucking perfect.
Jennifer Prokop 36:00 / #
Well, here's here's what I would suggest, because I actually don't know that I think they're opposites as much as I think it's just trying to achieve something different. And you're, as you were talking, I guess I would say this: to me, the alpha is like, I am pursuing what I want and that's also going to end up being what the heroine wants, we're going to figure it out together. But to me, a cinnamon / # roll hero-- if it's male, female romance-- is like, I know who I am. And I'm pretty happy and I'm wildly attracted to this woman. So my goal is to make sure she's getting what she wants. And I do think that those are different. That's, that's how it reads to me. When it works.
Jennifer Prokop 36:43 / #
I mean, that's what Michael wants, right for Stella in "The Kiss Quotient." He's like, what do you need from me? What what, how can I move you along this path that you're on? Now? I think he does undergo a journey.
Sarah MacLean 36:54 / #
Okay. But here's the thing, A lot of people came at us on Twitter about this and they were like, they were like, The problem with alphas, the problem with alphas is that they never want, they never want to hold up women and give women what they need. Right? They don't want women to have jobs. They don't want women to, you know, they don't want to support women in their careers or whatever. Right. And I think that that's a really interesting, and that's sort of what you're not saying, You're not in the extreme like that. But like, you're sort of dancing around that too. And that doesn't make very much sense to me in a modern role, like maybe the old romances? In a modern romance-- I've never written a hero who's like, "now you stay home, you don't get to keep running your bar" instead Haven has office in the bar now.
Jennifer Prokop 37:39 / #
So to me, if that's what an alpha is, I don't like it.
Sarah MacLean 37:44 / #
Yeah, well, if there's a parity issue that I think like gets lost in the argument here. Like,
Jennifer Prokop 37:51 / #
I just think alpha heroes if if we're comparing them and I don't even honestly know if it's that useful. Like maybe it's just different things entirely.
Sarah MacLean 38:00 / #
Maybe we're just spinning our wheels.
Andie Christopher 38:01 / #
I think it's hard to write like a really, really close to pure alpha in a contemporary romance Are you like you believe that you want, you would want to be in that same kind of relationship? And so to a certain extent, you know, there's still like alpha heroes and contemporary romance, obviously. But I think they're tempered to a certain degree. If your goal is to write a book that isn't like escapist.
Sarah MacLean 38:31 / #
right Right, right. Yeah. Fantasy right like if it's not you know, 50 shades like billionaire
Andie Christopher 38:40 / #
or like a motorcycle club. If it's not, it's not like um, you know, sort of a world you don't live in right?
Sarah MacLean 38:47 / #
It's not a Harlequin presents,
Andie Christopher 38:49 / #
Right. I mean, I think you can even write like, more pure alphas if you're writing sports romances. You're writing about like, larger than life.
Jennifer Prokop 38:59 / #
I want to go back to me like this really foundational moment in "Rafe" right? She says, "I want you to make this easy for me." And he as a cinnamon / # roll understands that what that means is I'm My job is to figure out what she needs and give it to her. I think if you said to an alpha, I want you to make this easy for me, he'd be like, "great, Just do what I want." And I don't think that means like, don't have a job. I think that just means like, Don't make me feel feelings. Right? Like let's just like have all the sex and stuff. I don't know!
Sarah MacLean 39:31 / #
I don't think it would be, "Don't." I don't think it would be "don't-- just do what I want." I think it would be like "Fine. Who do I pay to fix this problem?"
Jennifer Prokop 39:42 / #
Yes, Right.
Sarah MacLean 39:43 / #
Who do I punch to make you feel better? Like for an alpha he's he's a battering ram. He's like, "What do I have to break to make you happy?"
Jennifer Prokop 39:55 / #
When she says this to Rafe, and I like I said, I think this moment, To me it really spoke to, At its core what it was, when she said, "I just want you to make this easy for me." He understand that. That meant she meant,
Sarah MacLean 40:06 / #
emotionally
Jennifer Prokop 40:07 / #
I'm a little, I'm a little afraid of making decisions. I'm a little tentative, I'm not sure. And his response was, like, "come down here. We're going to figure it out together." Right, which I'm going to tell you it really works for me. I think it's really sexy at every level, but just in a totally different way.
Sarah MacLean 40:24 / #
Yeah, no, I mean, who doesn't want that?
Jennifer Prokop 40:26 / #
Yes. Right.
Sarah MacLean 40:27 / #
That's great.
Jennifer Prokop 40:29 / #
I'm just saying, I think how if I said to Derek Craven-- just make this easy for me-- He's like, good! Leave and go back to Greenwood Corners, so I don't have to think about you because you're freaking me out.
Andie Christopher 40:43 / #
And I mean, like St. Vincent would be like, maybe we should bone. An orgasm will make you feel better.
Sarah MacLean 40:50 / #
Right? But in real life, I mean, this of course, makes perfect sense. In theory, it's it's the moment where you say, I have words Or I have concerns or I have, you know, whatever. And the response is I want I hear that and I want to act to fix them. Like that's a, that's a noble thing. Like, I wish we all had that every day.
Jennifer Prokop 41:15 / #
Well, and I mean, maybe that's the fantasy: that they never tire of us being needy. I mean, I don't know, I mean, I think it's, I liked what Andie said a lot. It's not this idea that someone if we said-- I just want you to make it-- sometimes I literally say to Darrell, he's like, "what do you want for dinner" and I say, "I just want you to decide, that's what I want." Like, literally, that's what I want. I want you to decide I want you to make that decision. I just want you to make dinner appear in front of me. That is what care looks like to me right now.
Andie Christopher 41:48 / #
I mean, there's that there's that meme that you just say "I'm baby." So there's that like, you sometimes just want to like walk in the door and be like, I'm Baby, I get all of the like love and attention and coddling; as opposed to, I feel like, this like applies to some of my friends who you know are in relationships, especially hetero relationships that they feel like they're doing a lot more work.
Jennifer Prokop 42:23 / #
You know what this reminds me of. Okay, so back when I did TFA right after I was out of college, I had a roommate named Amy. And Amy would say the thing that, the first time she said it, I was like, that's the truest fucking thing I've ever heard. She'd had a fight with her boyfriend. And I don't remember exactly how it came up. She was fighting with him, she had this really tumultuous relationship. And she said to me, she's like, "you know, you can't ask for flowers." And like what it meant was if you have to ask for the flowers in order to get them, they mean less. A gesture-- a romantic gesture-- has to be driven by the other person. They have to know that what you need or want is flowers, or that right it comes out of nowhere. And I feel like you would never have to ask a fucking cinnamon / # roll for flowers. You would have to say though, to many alpha heroes: flowers are an actual sign of affection and every once in a while if you bring them to me, I will be happy
Sarah MacLean 43:29 / #
Well, it's it's interesting because there's also I'm sort of like dancing around in my I'm like playing over and over my head this idea that like there's something here about toxic masculinity. Which is these heroes lack that kind of toxicity. They are masculine without toxicity. I retweeted somebody today who was trying to explain, just because we don't want toxic masculinity doesn't mean we don't want masculinity. We don't want acid rain, but We still want rain. I think that's a really useful, Shit. What's a call from the SATs?
Jennifer Prokop 44:10 / #
An analogy?
Andie Christopher 44:12 / #
metaphor?
Sarah MacLean 44:14 / #
With the blank colon blank
Jennifer Prokop 44:16 / #
An analogy.
Sarah MacLean 44:18 / #
Yeah, whatever. It's a really useful one of those-- I think there's something there, essentially it's pure, it's and I do think it's contemporaries more than anything else that are doing, this because I mean, if Andie to Andie's point--- it's terrible out there, right? It's like that mement in "When Harry Met Sally" when You know, Carrie Fisher leans back and turns to Bruno Kirby and is like,
movie dialogue 44:52 / #
Tell me I'll never have to be out there again.
Jennifer Prokop 44:54 / #
Yes, that's right.
Sarah MacLean 44:57 / #
This is the moment
Andie Christopher 44:59 / #
I feel like there's all these studies that people, like millennials and Gen Zers or is are literally not fucking. Like Gen Z does not fuck
Jennifer Prokop 45:13 / #
Sad.
Andie Christopher 45:15 / #
I mean it's it's real sad, it's sad for me...on a personal level. But that's why I'm glad we have Sierra Simone in the world. Anyway, but it's real bad, and so it like you just want like a guy who is like, I was thinking-- I want a guy who's gonna open my door for me, and like smack my ass on the way out, but he's gonna know he has permission. Um, he's already he's gonna make sure that's okay. But not like in a needy or clingy way.
Jennifer Prokop 45:50 / #
Yeah, I mean, there are no consent issues with...
Sarah MacLean 45:53 / #
but this is such a fantasy. I mean, what you just asked for Andy is like fucking impossible
Jennifer Prokop 45:59 / #
That is more of a fantasy than anything else, right?
Sarah MacLean 46:01 / #
And that's more, that's more of a fantasy than any of these fucking alphas. The idea that-- well, I want him to get consent, but I want to make sure but he can't be too weird about getting consent, it can't feel needy or unsexy, right? You want it to be both sexy and also very clear. And you know, I wanted to smack my ass, but also respect me. And that's not to say that all of this isn't totally reasonable. But here's what's interesting. That takes, in real life, a long time to build with a partner. But like in these books, these guys just have it all.
Andie Christopher 46:38 / #
Yeah, that's what I mean. I that's when I went when I was like writing the hero in "Not the girl you Marry," I specifically set him up as he has been the perfect boyfriend his entire life, and he's failed at relationships. And that's kind of where he starts. So I tried to like have a cinnamon / # roll with a journey. But I still wanted him to be virtually perfect.
Jennifer Prokop 47:06 / #
Of course I think about um, you know, so many of Christina Lauren's recent heores have been this way-- this kind of truly perfect guy who just hasn't fit right.
Andie Christopher 47:21 / #
And I feel like a lot of Kate Clayborn's heroes are that way, they have either definitely flawed and human and layered, but they're not, you never question that they respect the heroine. That's never of question, and and see her as an equal.
Sarah MacLean 47:42 / #
I'm wondering if this is part of why we're seeing, that we've seen so so many fake engagement stories, too, recently? Yeah. Because you know, in our fake engagement episode, Jen and I talked about the fact that like the fan, the fake engagement is like Like, play acting that fantasy relationship. And in order for that to happen, well, cinnamon / # roll hero can do that.
Andie Christopher 48:11 / #
Yeah, and it's also like a cinnamon / # roll hero like you're faking that perfect relationship. Plus he acts like a human Flak Jacket at something like a wedding.
Jennifer Prokop 48:21 / #
Yeah. You know what I keep thinking? When we talked about alphas, the thing we said was it's the fantasy of the alpha is that the patriarchy can be tamed. I think the fantasy of the cinnamon / # roll is that the patriarchy does not have to be trained. They already come in, they're coming fully trained, but they're fully human. Right? Like, there's no way in which-- they have their feelings, they, they understand consent, like they help, you know, literal helpers around the home and whatever way. I mean, you know, maybe that's it. It's like taming versus training.
Sarah MacLean 49:00 / #
Or maybe I would go one step further maybe this fantasy is the patriarchy doesn't exist.
Jennifer Prokop 49:08 / #
They are still masculine.
Sarah MacLean 49:11 / #
Well, that doesn't mean that --it's not, Again, they're just not acid rain?
Andie Christopher 49:17 / #
It doesn't exist within this one human. It hasn't like it hasn't rotted that person to his core. You don't have to send them to therapy for 10 years before you can even talk to him.
Jennifer Prokop 49:28 / #
Yeah. Or that the Yeah, maybe that's right. The patriarchy has not ruined them.
Andie Christopher 49:36 / #
Yeah, cuz like a lot of the ones you get you know, if you're just trolling on Tinder you're like, Oh, wow. Oh, wow, you're-- this is this is spoiled. I'm just so mean. I'm so mean. That that's why I'm single is because I mean. You're like, oh, your shirtless picture with like the, you know, sleeping tiger. Just show that you're dick is huge. That? That's rotted to the core. I'm not a cinnamon / # roll and not an alpha really either.
Sarah MacLean 50:09 / #
No Well that's the other thing right? There's this like, perception of alpha as incel. And like that ain't it either.
Andie Christopher 50:17 / #
So no, because an alpha wouldn't-- as opposed to an incel--an alpha would never tell like the heroine she's ugly in order to like, get her to like him, or to get her to care about...
Sarah MacLean 50:33 / #
Yeah, no negging allowed.
Andie Christopher 50:37 / #
Yeah, I think we solved it. You guys, I think.
Jennifer Prokop 50:40 / #
All right, fair.
Sarah MacLean 50:41 / #
Well, now Andie, you have a book coming out with a cinnamon / # roll hero.
Andie Christopher 50:46 / #
I do.
Sarah MacLean 50:47 / #
My favorite kind of heroine, the unlikable kind.
Andie Christopher 50:50 / #
She, so what Jen was saying earlier about like the sort of the cinnamon / # roll hero being A foil to a heroine and who has a bigger journey--. And so a lot of the people who've read early copies of "Not the Girl You Marry," which is out on November 12, have said, most people talk about the heroine, Hannah. And part of that is because I basically poured so much myself into that character. It's a version of the trope in "How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days" with the gender roles updated. The heroine is biracial, It's set in Chicago, which is a place that I've lived. And Jack is a cinnamon / # roll. He's always been the perfect boyfriend. He's a literal, honest to God, choir boy. And he like falls instantly in love with the heroine who is giving him the finger at a bar and He works for like a BuzzFeed like type publication. And he's like a video guy. And he does how- to's. And so his boss tasks him with how to lose a girl, and he, he, the only girl he's met of late is Hannah. And so he sets about losing her by doing all of the terrible things that guys who are spoiled by toxic masculinity do-- like sending dick pics, not being communicative, Trying to make her jealous, all of that dumb shit. And she's an event planner, and she wants to get into weddings, but she's very, very soured on romance and her boss is like, "you don't even believe in love." She's like, "Yes, I do. I'll show you. I just met a guy. I have a boyfriend." And so she like has to continue dating Jack to convince her boss that she's not completely soured on the concept of love. And then high jinks ensue. But her journey really is the more angsty emotional journey. She has to come to believe that she deserves love and belonging from not only jack but from her friends who have been trying to offer it to her. So she has to learn to make herself vulnerable. Jack, on the other hand has to learn to stand up for himself a little bit more and take into account what he wants and, you know, not just surrender to whatever like his girlfriend was. And in that way, he basically has to get Hannah to respect him in a way. Not that he's soft. He's like, I mean, he is soft, but he's not. He's a little like I described him as a cinnamon / # roll from the corner of the pan. He is crusty and
Jennifer Prokop 53:54 / #
that's actually amazing.
Sarah MacLean 53:56 / #
Perfect. Well, so not the girl you marry is out November 12. You can pre order it now from all your favorite bookstores. And we will put links to it in show notes. And Andie, what comes and after that? There's a companion.
Andie Christopher 54:21 / #
There's a second one. So they're both standalone. The second book, it's called "Not that Kind of Guy" has a character from the first book in it and it's actually a workplace romance between assistant State's Attorney in Chicago and her much younger intern who comes from an extremely wealthy, politically connected family. And she sort of just like thinks he's a twerp, like a very attractive twerp. Um, and he is madly in love with on first sight, which is a theme Because that's my id and they're working togethe
Sarah MacLean 55:04 / #
Fated Mates.
Andie Christopher 55:05 / #
It's Fated Mates. I love Fated Mates rope and yeah, high jinks ensue. There's there's a trip to Vegas you know there's a wedding. And yeah, so it's it's still more her journey because she has to like come to terms with the ending of her relationship with her childhood sweetheart and he really just, he needs to learn how to like stand up to his family. Um, so he's he's definitely another cinnamon / # roll because he just, you know, wants to take care of people and he you know, wants people to love him. Um, but he's, he's really hot.
Jennifer Prokop 55:45 / #
Well, that goes will Oh, I mean, that fixes a lot.
Sarah MacLean 55:48 / #
it goes without saying Yeah,
Andie Christopher 55:49 / #
yeah, no, I mean, I fall a little bit in love with him throughout the course of the book. Bridget, the heroine in then the second, in "not that kind of guy" is good friends with her, with the heroine-- becomes good friends with the heroine in the first book. And so there's also that friendship and a sense of found family, which is also it's an id for me in books.
Sarah MacLean 56:21 / #
Well, this is amazing. And I'm so glad that you texted me with your idea about why cinnamon / # rolls work. And I think because I do I mean like, I think you're right. I think Jen and I have been talking-- and not just us, we didn't invent this conversation. But for the last two years we've seen this sort of evolution and romance and it seems to be going so quickly. And there's this sort of sense of people are calling them you know, they're it's you know: is everything a rom com? What's happening with all these illustrated covers? What are we trying to say with these covers? What are we trying to say with the Books? And I think cinnamon / # rolls are somehow wrapped up in this conversation in a really interesting way. And I'm always interested, as you both know, and why things happen and what these books are doing the work that they're doing. And if it is about pure fantasy, first of all, oh, men do better.
Andie Christopher 57:24 / #
I mean, I think it's, I think it's about like convincing readers -- writing the book for me, "Not the Girl you Marry" is about convincing myself that love was possible in a world as broken as this. But my conclusion is, that thesis is, the guy has to be close to perfect. And I think it's like, we don't need to be in relationships. And so I think, why are we in relationships? And I think that's what I think that's what a lot of these books are asking. Like, what are we looking for in partnership? And why bother?
Jennifer Prokop 57:56 / #
You know, the thing I keep thinking about though, the fantasy part, I think is really powerful. And I think romance is really transformative, I think it's often very difficult to sort of, I think the best romances put both characters on a journey. And sometimes that journey happens together and sometimes the journey is a little stronger for one than the other. And I think what I really like about like I said in a cinnamon / # roll, in a male, female, where the cinnamon / # roll is the hero, what I really appreciate the most, is the sense that the heroine's journey is really highlighted. And that it his job to like showcase, what she is capable of and like make that possible. And that to me is--you know, not just that such a man exists but that you know, like self acculizatin, like finding yourself, and in a romantic relationship that your romantic partner makes you better and stronger. I mean, that's something we do all deserve. And I think that this is one really powerful way that romance shows that that can happen. I guess that's what I'd say.
Sarah MacLean 59:11 / #
Well, Andie, thank you so much for joining us.
Andie Christopher 59:15 / #
Thank you for having me. It was so much fun.
Sarah MacLean 59:17 / #
Andy, tell everybody where they can find you online.
Andie Christopher 59:21 / #
I am on I am on twitter @authorandieJ, and I'm on Instagram where you'll mostly see pictures of my dog. My Facebook is also @authorandieJ, and I there you'll see a lot of pictures of my dog. And you know, news about books. but I am I'm mostly shouting on Twitter.
Sarah MacLean 59:48 / #
Well, thank you for coming on Fated Mates. Everyone Next week, we'll be back with another deep dive read from season two, And you can find us on Twitter at Fated Mates or on Instagram at Fated Mates pod. You can buy Fated Mates pins from Kelly @resistancebuttons on Jen's website, jenreadsromance.com. Fated Mates is produced by Eric Mortensen and we will see you all next week. Enjoy your cinnamon / # rolls.
S02.02: The Alpha in Romance Novels
As we lead into Season Two, and consider the fact that some of our faves are definitely going to be problematic, we’re talking about the alpha hero this week — we’re also tackling the beta hero and the cinnamon roll, and why these archetypes largely don’t work for us. We’re talking romance heroes who changed the game for us and the genre, about how hard it is to turn the alphahole around, and how satisfying it is to watch it happen. We’re also talking the female gaze (of course) and the patriarchy (like always).
Next week, we’re digging into one of our original alphas, Derek Craven! You can find Lisa Kleypas’s Dreaming of You at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo, or at your local indie. It's currently $2.99 in digital everywhere, so snatch it up!
Show Notes
The alpha, the beta, and the cinnamon roll.
You should all follow Cora Harrington (lingerie addict) on twitter. It's all so beautiful.
Jen screams about first person a lot, but MOSTLY about first person present.
It was Demon Rumm by Sandra Brown that was all in the male POV, and this review is so great. Jen's going to follow Alaina, the author, on twitter. UPDATE: The Browne Pop Culture Library was able to find the descriptions of Demon Rumm, and as Jen predicted, they were in the back matter of the previous month's books! Thanks, Steve!
Alec Kinkaid, The Montgomerys, James Mallory, and the Westmoreland heroes.
Did you somehow miss us talking about The Professional?
It the Movie may or may not be your cup of tea, but this discussion of Jane Doe with Victoria Helen Stone has some really interesting points about horror and romance.
Bourne from A Rogue by Any Other Name is "Sarah's worst hero" by which she means it was just reall satisfying to break him.
You have to listen to our antiheroes episode if you want to know what it means to "take the finger."
P in V is great, but 2Ps in V is even better.
Hillary Clinton was wrong about romance novels, and Lisa Kleypas explains why.
Adriana Herrera's American Dreamers series is one of our faves.
What it means to be a Kinsey 2.
Romance for Raices has a few more days. Spend enough money and you can pick an upcoming interstitial topic!
TRANSCRIPT
Sarah MacLean 0:00 / #
Umm.....interstitial 2.1 is that what we call them? I don't understand.
Jennifer Prokop 0:05 / #
We're not doing point anything.
Sarah MacLean 0:08 / #
No, we're not using points anymore. That's what that we promised our producer that we would never label anything point anything. But isn't this like season, it's like 201, I don't know, there's like a TV numbering system. We're not going to use it. But it's season two, interstitial one is what it is. No more point five episodes. You guys are gonna have to pay attention to the titles now. I mean, do as we say not as we do.
Jennifer Prokop 0:38 / #
Obviously, you should just listen to everything and not even worry about it. That would be the ideal thing for all of us.
Jennifer Prokop 0:47 / #
So welcome to Fated Mates everyone. Are we rage interstitialing here Sarah?
Sarah MacLean 0:58 / #
I think we are. I'm pretty rage-y about this, and I want to have a talk.
Jennifer Prokop 1:03 / #
I know. Okay,
Sarah MacLean 1:05 / #
Maybe rage is too strong a word.
Jennifer Prokop 1:08 / #
We're unpacking.
Sarah MacLean 1:13 / #
You guys, here's where I'm at. Yesterday, I was walking in the park in Brooklyn, with my dog and my kid, and I had a thought that I didn't love about romance, and I wanted to unpack it. And so I texted Jen this thought, and she immediately called me. It was a Saturday morning at like, 10:30 / #. And she was like, it's too much to text, but these are my thoughts. And we had a whole conversation about patriarchy versus white supremacy versus anti-semitism in romance, and it was like 10:30 / # in the morning, on a Saturday, in my life, and I realized like, this is all I want out of life. Basically to have a thought about romance novels and then be able to fucking hash it out. Like, can we talk it out? And I said to Jen, we're not going to talk that out today, because we're going to talk that out many times over the next, however many episodes, but I said to Jen, recently, I really want to have a conversation about romance in 2019 and how we talk about the alpha. And like what the fuck that is, and why we are so weird about naming alphas and betas or cinnamon rolls or why we obsess over what the hero is in sort of a single word and also like why we resist so much of that character who, as I like to say, scratches an itch in fiction, but who of course we would never date in real life.
Jennifer Prokop 3:14 / #
And what this is really tied into and you and I talked have talked a lot about this, is the fantasy of romance.
Sarah MacLean 3:21 / #
Which is not just the fantasy of the romance novel, but also sort of packed into that is female fantasy, or women's fantasy or marginalized people's sexual fantasies.
Jennifer Prokop 3:38 / #
An example of this is, my favorite thing and romance. is that the heroine's underwear and bra always match.
Sarah MacLean 3:47 / #
Oh, I know. And they set the hero aflame.
Jennifer Prokop 3:52 / #
Yeah. And you know what, I don't think I actually own any matching bras and underwear.
Sarah MacLean 3:58 / #
I think one more time I wore a matching bra and underwear and Eric was like, whoa, what is this? I know. We hit the lottery today.
Jennifer Prokop 4:17 / #
One of my favorite Twitter feeds is that lingerie addict Twitter feed.
Sarah MacLean 4:20 / #
Oh, I don't know that. I'm going to subscribe to it.
Jennifer Prokop 4:23 / #
I think her name's Cora Harrington. I'm not sure. Anyway, and I'm always, these undergarments are gorgeous. I just want to admire them. And in no way in real life do I actually want to wear them. But I love them.
Sarah MacLean 4:44 / #
But also because you and I are, you know, our girls need a house man. They need to be, you know, engineered into clothing. And that sort of floofy frilly perfect underwear, it is not realistic in any way. But man, I love to read about it. I really do
Jennifer Prokop 5:11 / #
I think there's a lot of ways in which romance, and I think you and I agree on this. It's like real, but it's also fantasy. And the intersection of where those things work for some people and not for others is very fascinating to me. And I'm going to tell you, Sarah, I love an alpha. Whatever it is, we're defining that as...I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it.
Sarah MacLean 5:36 / #
And there are very clear reasons why I love it. I mean, you do. Here's the thing, like we've talked for the last I mean, for however many for 39 episodes we talked about, well, not for half of the episodes for 19 or 20 episodes. We talked about "Mine," right? And frankly when you're reading IAD like everybody's the fucking leader of the pack. Everybody's the best, the strongest, the most powerful, the king, the whatever, the primordial. Unbeatable in every way. And these things have often been marked as alpha traits. And I guess they are.
Sarah MacLean 6:27 / #
But that's not why we love them, I don't think. It's part of it. In the immortal words of Sierra Simone, "Power is sexy. I'm sorry, I don't make the rules." And every romance novel is about power, no matter what it is, no matter what kind of hero you're writing, romance novels are about power because relationships are about power. Everybody's relationship, in real life, any relationship you have with anybody else, is about power and parity. And when you have conflict in a relationship in real life or on the page, it's about power.
Jennifer Prokop 7:11 / #
And I would say that romance then to me really fundamentally, when I read it is about figuring outhow to navigate that, how to win at that.
Sarah MacLean 7:29 / #
That's the whole ball game. The navigation of power toward parity is the whole ball game in romance. And so we've talked a lot about the history of the genre on the podcast and as we move forward in season two, we're going to talk a lot more about the history of the genre, and the books that have established themselves as sort of Cornerstone texts in romance, right? How in many of these books, we're dealing with a hero who is in those early days so impenetrable, that literally his point of view is never on the page. We're going to talk about POV much more next week when we talk about "Dreaming of You." But--I'm not talking about first person versus third person here, which is what Jen likes to yell and scream about-- I'm talking about literally the narrator and the reader don't have access to the hero's thoughts at all in these early books.
Jennifer Prokop 8:41 / #
This is like a bit of an aside, It was the first time, and I think it was "Demon Rumm" by Sandra Brown, I was like trying to figure it out, where it was 'this book is only the hero's point of view.' And I'm kind of how did I hear about this? Because there was no Twitter and there's no social media. And it must have been in the back of the book, like coming next month. But I remember that being something worth, like something worth saying like, "Hey, this is happening and it's different and new."
Sarah MacLean 9:13 / #
Yeah. Interesting. But this is the thing right like when you are looking at a hero and those early books, the early Deverauxs, early Lindseys, early McNaughts, early Garwoods, Bertrice Small, we never ever saw the hero. We never saw inside his head. And so we were really dealing in those early days-- in my mind, like, this is me like I'm putting on my scholar hat, now-- in those early days we were looking at distilled patriarchy. The hero was representative of sort of a world that was not accessible to women, not accessible to the heroine, and not accessible to read the reader. And then the heroine starts to chip away at this rigid, stony character and unlocks Alec Kincaid or any number of the Montgomerys or James Mallory or any number of the Westmoreland heroes. And suddenly we have a ball game because we're able to see that the heroine ultimately lays out the hero. To the point, where in some cases, in a McNaught that we will read this season, the hero is literally dying on a battlefield because of the heroine. Because of a promise he made to her and he will not betray that promise because he loves her. So When we see a hero broken to that extent, and then rebuilt in this image of equality, it's delicious for us as readers who subconsciously are keenly aware of our lack of power in many of these relationships.
Jennifer Prokop 11:20 / #
And I think what's really interesting about that is it was so the way I read, I came into romance as a young reader. And yet now, when I read books that are heroine-only point of view, I have to pace myself with them. I can't do it all the time. I find it too hard to get to know the hero, It feels really like a like a bold choice on the part of the author to do such a thing. Because I'm really used now to having access to all of the characters in a romantic relationship in modern Romance and when people go another way it feels like a choice, and a risky one at that. You know, it's just really hard to sell me on the other character without me being able to see inside their head. Whether that be first person or third person it doesn't matter. I'm used to that being something that I get now in romance. I don't know if you feel the same way.
Sarah MacLean 12:29 / #
Obviously this is why one of my biggest challenges. As much as you're the one who, you know, goes to the mad about first person, the challenge with first person is that sometimes you don't get the important information from the perspective of the person that you need it from. So craft-wise one of the rules that we talk about all the time when you talk about POV and romance, and you talk about writing multiple POVs, is that when you are writing a scene, you should be writing the scene in the point of view of the character who has the most to lose. Interestingly, in these early romances, or in romances where you've got a big, bad impenetrable alpha, the character who has the most to lose in those early scenes, is the heroine because she's navigating this power structure and unable to gain enough footing to get herself into a position of power where he can lose something. However, in books like, well, last year when we talked about "The Professional" part of the challenge with "The Professional" is we never saw-- part of the challenge with all three of those books-- is that we never see the moment when the heroine is leaving from the hero's point of view. We just see him go animal. He goes feral. That first one, Alex, or Alexi, what's his name? I don't even fucking remember anymore. It's like those books are out of my head but in "The Professional," we don't see him go feral. In "The Master" we see Maxim run across the field and take the bullet and he's willing to do anything for her. And so we can sort of perceive his feralness. And I'm using feral in a very specific way here. I'm using it on purpose. That is an intentional use of the word feral. And then in "The Player" we see Dimitri punch the car. He can't control himself. And we talked about it in that episode. That's a problem moment. If that happened in real life, to your friend, you would be like, red flag, get the fuck away from that guy.
Jennifer Prokop 14:55 / #
Yeah. All the flags.
Sarah MacLean 14:57 / #
Holy shit. Call the police. That guy's horrible. But when it's happening on the page in a romance novel it's safer for us to love it. And what does that mean?
Jennifer Prokop 15:09 / #
I sometimes wonder if...you have a heroine-only point of view now, or maybe then, too. Maybe as we read some of these old books we'll dig into that. If you have to make that moment-- for the hero in this case, I feel like this really over time with the alpha hero. It's like, to me it's like very tied into MF romance, where it's like a heroine.-- I wonder if you don't have to make that low moment really over the top, because we have, it's the only way to signal to the reader, just how they really feel. Like you've [the author] cut them off from them [the readers]. And so in order for us to get it, does it have to be bigger, and I don't know the answer to that.
Sarah MacLean 16:00 / #
I think it does. I was looking online and somebody was talking about some book and how the low moment, the sort of dark night of the soul moment, was over-the-top. And we hear that a lot with romance like, oh, it's so over-the-top. I get that as a criticism for my books a lot, the the climactic scene is so over-the-top. And of course it's over the top, you have to break them. They have to be crushed. Look, I love every one of my heroes. Certainly I've written heroes who I've not loved most of the book, but by the time I get to that moment, which is usually, I don't know, 90% of the way through the book, I love those heroes. I really do and I don't want them to be broken, but they have to break. Because we have to see them laid low by the idea that they have lost everything, that they have lost everything of meaning. And the reality is, and you'll never convince me otherwise, that's because all I want is to see the patriarchy destroyed. If there's anything that is is a solid metaphor for patriarchy, it's this story. The fighting for power, the arguments about power, the back and forth about that power and the ultimate dismantling of a system and a man who is representative of that system, so that he can do nothing else but be a person who's looking for equality and a mate.
Jennifer Prokop 17:48 / #
I think a lot about--so what does that really mean in the books where it satisfies?
Sarah MacLean 17:56 / #
At some point I want to talk about the fact that you shouldn't be writing this consciously. That's the problem.
Jennifer Prokop 18:08 / #
Okay, so Darrell is a big horror movie fan. And he went to see "It" this weekend.
Sarah MacLean 18:15 / #
Did he enjoy it? It looks so scary. It looks so scary.
Jennifer Prokop 18:21 / #
He I think has a really high scary threshold, because he's like, it wasn't that scary. But what was really interesting is I was asking him about the ending, because I was like, Is there a way that horror movies always end that leave you-- as the viewer in this case-- right? Like, it's like that, like, what do you need to have a satisfying romance ending I feel like is I'm always interested in these like genre questions. But the thing I think a lot about in romance is that part of the breaking of the hero is that he has to say I love you. It has to be an emotional journey where part of it is this man admitting, "I have feelings."
Sarah MacLean 19:07 / #
Yeah, I'm human.
Jennifer Prokop 19:09 / #
Yes. "I have feelings. I'm human. I have to speak these feelings out loud." It is part of every romance that it's not just enough for a woman or heroine to say I can tell he loves me by the way he acts, part of the breaking of that hero has to be: I have to say it out loud. I have to feel those feelings. And it's different when they're soft cinnamon rolls the entire time.
Sarah MacLean 19:39 / #
Here's where I'm at. And this is going to be a controversial thing. I'm a little afraid to say it but whenever. When we talk about these soft books, and there is a place for them, because like I appreciate that that's part of the fantasy, too. I have so much to say. I have so many thoughts in my head. But here's the thing. When we talk about these soft books and these soft heroes and these cinnamon rolls and how much we love a hero which wants to hold the heroine, and cook for the heroine, and clean for the heroine, and be the heroine's, you know, person. So, okay, personally, this I'm not afraid to say. These books do nothing for me. I can appreciate them on a literary level, on a romance level. I can say that's a finely crafted book, I can say that's a finely written book, this person's a skilled writer, but they do nothing for me in a primal way. And there's a sort of primalness to romance that I will never give up. You will have to pry it from me.
Jennifer Prokop 20:47 / #
I think we are alike in that way.
Sarah MacLean 20:51 / #
Yeah, I mean, we just did a podcast about Kresley Cole, come on. So there is that, but also, from a craft perspective, from an intellectual perspective, if you start the book with two characters who are both fully realized, decent people, who live in the world and are feminist and anti-racist and perfect in every way, they're all dyed in the wool democrats who love each other and can cook perfectly, then where is there to go? I appreciate that as I say those words I can understand intellectually and emotionally that that's a problematic thing. But then I sort of think to myself, and literally I'm speaking my thoughts as they are coming into my head, but like, then I think to myself, but wait a second. Is it that problematic? Because I'm not saying I want to marry Alec Kincaid. I'm not saying I want to marry whatever. I don't know. Who's my worst hero? Borne. Right? But I am saying I want to read Borne breaking. I want to read Devil freezing to death, realizing that he's fucked everything up. Spoiler alert. But my husband is not those things like my husband is a proper cinnamon roll, like, and I love him for it. So why can't I have my cake and eat it too, Jen?
Jennifer Prokop 22:37 / #
I keep coming back to the question about what the fantasy is? The fantasy for you and me is that the patriarchy can be tamed. And that's what we want to read.
Sarah MacLean 22:51 / #
More now than ever before.
Jennifer Prokop 22:54 / #
More now than ever before. Now again, I feel like it's worth us saying that I think both of us are totally aware that taking the patriarchy out of context of capitalism and racism or whatever, that's what we're doing right now. So I think for me, like you, the cinnamon roll fantasy is just not what I personally really need right now. I read about one a year and really enjoy it but I don't want to read them nonstop. And I think part of it is because that fantasy which is the help-meet fantasy, maybe, maybe that's what it is or the we're going to team up together and already be so far advanced. I don't know. Maybe it's just a different fantasy. Maybe we needed someone on who does love those books to tell us what it is that is hitting that primal need in them.
Sarah MacLean 23:59 / #
It's interesting because I had this conversation with a friend not long ago about the fact that post election, all she wants to do is read beta heroes. And also, pause, because I want to say also that I sort of instinctively loathe the, you know, heroes are all either an alpha or a beta or cinammon roll, or whatever. I hate all that discussion. Any decent writer is writing a complex hero who is many things. So, you know, there's that, and I feel I have to have said that over the course of, you know, all those Wroth Brothers. So she was basically saying I just want to read happy, bantery, joyful, fun, soft heroes. And I was like, that's fair. In the wake of the election, all I want to do is read the most bananas stories. I want every author out there taking the finger, as we discussed last season, and I think part of it is because, basically, if your book isn't about dismantling the institutions of power and privilege and hate that we are living with right now, like, why? But this is the thing, I'm also saying I appreciate that that's not fair. Does that makes sense?
Jennifer Prokop 25:37 / #
I think it's something Kelly and I talk about a lot. The work you decide to do in the world--Everybody's work is different. The work of I'm going to tackle this head on by talking about how you break down the most virulent kind of the patriarchy versus other people's work is maybe not taking the finger. Other people's work is just different. And I think that it's okay to to say that. I think what worries me and you is that I don't want to be told that loving the breaking of the alpha makes me a regressive romance reader.
Sarah MacLean 26:26 / #
Yes. Yes.
Jennifer Prokop 26:29 / #
And I feel like that's the narrative, I'm like, Look, I don't understand your work. And you don't understand my work. I don't know. That's the part I think that's hard.
Sarah MacLean 26:42 / #
I think it's a very specific narrative that we're hearing in a very specific place. So I think this is the thing that we hear about a lot on romance Twitter, but interestingly, I run reading book club on Facebook and you don't hear that so much. I think it's a conversation that is happening in very specific circles, and I think it's worthy of happening, I think that often we lose sight of the idea that women's fantasy or the fantasies of people whose gazes are not traditionally presented as fantasy, or who are not often given like a space to fantasize publicly. Policing that fantasy is a terrible, frankly, regressive way of being. My concern is that when we police fantasy, specifically the fantasy of people whose fantasies are never given a place to exist and thrive, which is what romance has always been, it's been a place for sexual fantasy of people who are not given access to sexual fantasy in the world writ large. If you're not cis, het, white, and male--- your sexual fantasies are not on billboards and in movies. But they are in romance novels. And so if we are policing that fantasy, if we're policing the, I don't know, motorcycle club or the BDSM, or the I don't know, the alpha who is broken and then rebuilt, then are we progressing as a genre? Or are we regressing as one? It should be broadening. When I'm in a reading slump, cinnamon rolls are not the answer. But like they might be the answer to someone else and like, go with God.
Jennifer Prokop 29:02 / #
And that's that's exactly I think that's it, I love that we are broadening. I think it's really more expensive as a genre. We always joke with Kate. She's like, "I don't want to read two Ps in V" and I was like, "Yeah, I do!" And I think that part of it is, I feel like there's so many more places that romance is giving us access to so many more fantasies and so many more kinds of fantasies. But my fantasy still that alpha getting broken and crying and being like, I love you. I still want that one, too. I don't want to lose that as we move forward and have so many more fantasies. I still love that old school fantasy. I do. I probably always will. Because I grew up with it. And because of where we are in the world right now.
Sarah MacLean 30:02 / #
Yeah, I mean, and what's really interesting about it is, I don't think anyone would argue that in the early days, the writers I mean, I don't think anyone would argue that most of the writers of the genre are thinking about representing the smashing of the patriarchy in that moment. I don't think. I don't think Judith McNaught was, "All right, I'm gonna write 'Whitney, My Love' and Clayton's gonna be so much of an asshole. That then like when he is broken at the end, everyone will see that it's a metaphor for women's the women's movement." You would knock me directly over if you told me that that was what Judith McNaught was thinking about when she was writing "Whitney, My Love," I think she just opened up ID and poured it onto the page and we got what we got. And so like, I think this whole conversation should be taken in a sense of like, we're doing a lot of thinking about the work of romance in a way that I think does writers a disservice sometimes. And I say this as somebody who like has gotten in her head about, "well, what is the political ramification of this story?" And suddenly you think to yourself, "well now I'm in the weeds like, now I'm frozen, because I'm terrified that I'm going to do this thing wrong. That I'm going to tell the story of smashing of patriarchy wrong or I'm going to tell the story of whatever this political thing that I want to talk and I'm going to do it wrong." Versus like ultimately, writing with conflict and with pacing and with voice and with you know, character that just like is primal. It's fearlessness.
Jennifer Prokop 32:07 / #
I want to be really clear, when we talk about it being wrong, I think the fear is always, always, always, because it's always the charge right? Hillary Clinton talked about a hero to putting a woman over a horse and riding away with her. Here we are as a genre saying like, "no, it's feminist." And yet people outside the genre are looking at it and saying, "no, it's it isn't." And that is always the push pull. I think, a really primal push pull of romances is: Is it feminist? When is it enough? When is it feminist? When is it anti-racist? When is it, when is it progressive versus when is it regressive? And I think that that question is one that maybe we can't tell until 10 or 15 or 20 years later. Who knows, but you can't convince me it's not and yet I have such a hard time explaining to you why it is. And I don't know what to do about that.
Sarah MacLean 33:14 / #
Wait, why romance is feminist?
Jennifer Prokop 33:17 / #
Yeah, I mean, I are like, Why? I mean, I don't know where the line is.
Sarah MacLean 33:25 / #
Here's my thing. For, whatever, 45 years, the genre was accused of being regressive and anti-feminist. The women's movement was moving women forward and romance novels were taking us back. And I have never ascribed to that for all the reasons that you have heard me for many, many hours of expounding on that. Now, I think what we're hearing though, is from inside the house, we're hearing not all these books are feminist and I think that is where things start to get real dicey. Because I have always said that romance is feminist in two different ways: that, On the one hand, it's feminist because there are the texts that are doing something overtly feminist on the page, the breaking down of the alpha hero, the celebration of the cinnamon roll, these kind of moments where we start to see parity as a construct in the novel, like sexual parity or, you know, whatever. Again we're talking about a very specific kind of feminism here. But then on the other hand, you have the books that are written as one-handed reads, for pure pleasure for women, or for people who, again, have never had their pleasure centered by any form of media including pornography. Then you have an entirely different realm of romance that is doing the work of like identifying basic human pleasure beyond cis het white male. And that also has value.
Jennifer Prokop 35:24 / #
Or cis het white female for that matter.
Sarah MacLean 35:27 / #
It's like cis or het or white or Yeah, it's or AND and OR.
Jennifer Prokop 35:42 / #
When we talk about HEA for all, happily everyone after, to use your language. I think the thing that romance novels have taught me foundationally, and you will never convince me that this is an important, is that you deserve ultimate love and acceptance in your relationships with other people, whether they be romantic relationships or not. Whoever that person is on the page, they deserve people in their lives to say I love you the way you are. And that is right, to me is profoundly radical. And as we see more and more romances that are not just about white ladies, and by white ladies, we see a lot of expansion about what that looks like and what that means and I love those fucking books a whole lot.
Sarah MacLean 36:38 / #
Well, it's Adriana Herrera's American Love Story series. You know, it's that sense that she wrote these, that first book "American Dreamer" or like is a male/male romance, but so much of the love on the page is from families.
Jennifer Prokop 36:57 / #
And I think that's the part that I find, as a woman in the world, the ways in which I've tried so hard to fit into boxes and make people happy and take up less space and less room. And in a romance, the people in the romance are allowed to take up however much room they fucking want to. And that's all I want o read. Except for the patriarchy. They're the ones who can't exist the way they come into the storyl
Sarah MacLean 37:33 / #
And if you think about it structurally, if you think about them as a metaphor, if you think about the general arc of the romance novel, from disperate two or three or however many disparate people come together, experience conflict, and end up in happily ever after. If you think about that as a metaphor for like a larger battle in this in society that we are all fighting every day, then, of course at the end like we're Marvel movies, right? At the end, the good guys win, which means the patriarchy doesn't win. What I worry when you start to hear from inside the romance house like well, alphas are the problem. And it's like of course alphas are the problem. That's the point. Alphas are the problem. And then we see them dismantled on the page by the opposite of an alpha, and then restructured as men worthy of love, which, frankly, I mean, if anything is a fantasy.
Jennifer Prokop 38:56 / #
I mean, god, I love my husband, right? But man it's hard sometimes.
Sarah MacLean 39:05 / #
Over the last couple of months I have fired a lot of men in my life. It's misandry hour with Sarah. I have basically like, I have eliminated a lot of men from tangential roles of my life and, and hired instead smart, savvy women. And I said to my husband the other day I was like, I'm just I'm like, slowly, like eliminating men from my life and I was like, you're lucky I'm a Kinsey two, because you'd be out man.
Jennifer Prokop 39:54 / #
I think the thing though that I I really want to talk about is how much I as a reader need conflict. So you talked about a romance now, it's like the relationships puts these people on the page, and it doesn't matter who they are, but what I need is to see that conflict changes people. Conflict changes the way we relate to each other, it changes the way we think about ourselves, and the best romance to me is always going to be rooted in conflict. I think the cinnamon roll books, the reason I don't find them as primal is because the barriers, just the conflict is lower by design, and I get that, I get that how much I value my relationships right now that are sort of lower conflict. That really speaks to me, but in romance, I still really need to see this be The Clash of the Titans.
Sarah MacLean 41:00 / #
Because ultimately, and this is where I'm going to get nerdy about books, but ultimately, isn't the purpose of literature just sort of to mirror our own struggle. I was talking to Sierra Simone about all this not long ago and she said something really, I mean, she Sierra, so of course she said something really smart-- She said something so brilliant to me. And she was basically saying, "when you strip conflict out of a romance novel, what you're basically doing is setting up two people in some sphere of perfect transparent communication and trust from the start." And so as she said to me, and this is direct quote, "it doesn't mirror pain, it doesn't mirror growth, it doesn't mirror joy". I wrote it down because I was like, that's so smart. It's now sticking to my wall. And the reality is, is that , what conflict does is say to a reader, your pain, your growth, your joy is not abnormal. You are okay. This is real, and what you are feeling is real. And look at these two people who are experiencing pain and growth and joy. And frankly, nobody's exploded your boat. So, you know if these two can make it, so can you. And that's powerful.
Jennifer Prokop 42:30 / #
That's all I want.
Sarah MacLean 42:32 / #
Also, there is an argument to be made that like if you have two very, like lovely people on the page together l I don't know. Now I'm sort of thinking like, if you two lovely people on the page together and, are you writing for people who don't have that? Maybe this is...I don't know. Maybe my privilege is showing. I don't know. Maybe my My relationship is, you know, with a person who was kind and decent to me? So why do I want to read about my own life?
Jennifer Prokop 43:07 / #
But that goes back to the idea that different people need different things out of romance and different people need different things out of the media that they consume. When I think about why my husband loves horror so much, I have this theory that it's sort of serving the same function as romance. He's just like, I want to know that people are going to either band together or escape evil.
Sarah MacLean 43:31 / #
It's like mystery novels. A mystery novel where the mystery isn't solved is not a very good mystery novel.
Jennifer Prokop 43:38 / #
I love that there's all different kinds of relationships on page. I love it. I love it even though I still want to read about conflict because you know what, even though I we joke that I like to fight, that's something I really had to learn. It's something that still scares me. And so when I see people in a romance that are in high conflict, it's like, you can do this too. It speaks to me because of who I am. 20 year old Jen did not like to fight. 20 year old Jen was afraid of fighting.
Sarah MacLean 44:15 / #
Yeah. Yeah. And I think romance novels continually model that communication. That conversation that has to happen between two people who love each other, or who are working toward loving each other. Love is messy. Relationships are messy. I mean, I've spent a lot of years in therapy, man.
Jennifer Prokop 44:45 / #
I think that's part of the reason why one of the my favorite romances now is marriage in trouble.
Sarah MacLean 44:52 / #
Isn't that funny how that works. As you age and you age into marriage, you're like marriage in trouble is so much more interesting to me now than it was. When I was 20 I cared not a bit about marriage in trouble.
Jennifer Prokop 45:05 / #
No. And that's because of who we are right now. So when we talk about what's primal or foundational, it's always going to be the intersection of who we are as people and readers, where we are in our lives now, but also what we came up through in terms of our romance history. There's always going to be things that ring that bell because it's like Julie Garland's "The Bride" for me. Always.
Sarah MacLean 45:34 / #
And that's the thing. That takes us back to that sort of alpha question, which is, so now you all know how I feel about the alpha like what I feel that alpha is actually doing. But like, that's intellectual Sarah, like that's Sarah's brain saying the alpha represents patriarchy. If I were teaching and I do teach this class, when I talk about like, who is Christian Grey? Why does he scratch the itch? Because God knows Christian Grey scratched the itch for a hundred million readers. Okay? So I don't want to talk about the quality of the writing. I don't want to talk about the story. I want to talk about any of that. All I want to talk about is why Christian Grey worked. Because he did work and he launched 1000 million billionaires.
Sarah MacLean 46:34 / #
So Christian Grey, I can intellectually tell you why Christian Grey works. He is strong. He has immense power. He's incredibly wealthy. He takes care of her. He makes sure she has food in her fridge, that her car works, that she has money in her bank account. He literally buys the business she works for to fire her boss. She can have a happy job life. And then on top of all that, he manages her orgasms to perfection. All these things cognitively work on a specific level, but so to 1000 other billionaires and so do all the Dukes, so do all the vampires. We've seen a billion rich, powerful, great in the sack kind of heroes. But what is it about that that scratches the itch? I don't know. It's just there. It's built in. But I hate saying that.
Jennifer Prokop 47:52 / #
I mean, we grew up in this society. I feel like in a society where women's financial security is always so precarious, it makes sense that he's a billionaire, but it's not that she's gonna quit working.
Sarah MacLean 48:14 / #
Oh, and he's always around. He's never at work.
Jennifer Prokop 48:18 / #
Men don't have to work in romance. Only women do.
Sarah MacLean 48:22 / #
That's a different kind of interstitial. But truthfully, there's that too. It's the fantasy of he's a billionaire and we have all this, we have immense security, but he always there emotionally for me.
Jennifer Prokop 48:37 / #
And that what he wants is for her to be self actualized.
Sarah MacLean 48:43 / #
It's just id man.
Jennifer Prokop 48:46 / #
Of course it is.
Sarah MacLean 48:48 / #
And I think that's the problem. Look, I'm talking about Christian Gray as a sort of a placeholder for 1000 other heroes. I think 50 Shades worked for very specific reasons during the actual moment in history when 50 Shades was written, but it's so primitive that sort of idea that...it feels like it goes back to like days of hunters and gatherers. There's that sort of primitive itch scratch and I don't understand. I want to be evolved but I'm not there. I love "mine." I love that moment where Alec Kincaid says, what when the question is asked what what do we call her and he says "you call her mine."
Jennifer Prokop 49:47 / #
Here's the thing I think about in terms of 50 Shades and a lot of like the old alphas. You don't really see it as much anymore, but it was certainly part of IAD and it was like part of Twilight, I would say too, is that this extraordinary person would look and instantly recognize that this was the person for them. And there's something really appealing about being seen in a crowd by someone that you think is extraordinary. Christian Grey or Edward Cullen or whoever, and that they're going to pick you out. And I don't really read in the way that I'm like, I'm the heroine. But that idea of being seen immediately as you are extraordinary too, that there is
Sarah MacLean 50:44 / #
Fated Mates.
Jennifer Prokop 50:45 / #
Of course it is. There's a reason that we read IAD together.
Sarah MacLean 50:50 / #
But I've said 1000 times I actually don't really like Fated Mates. But even the opposite of Fated Mates feels like in some ways it's enemies lovers. But even in that moment, it's the being seen moment. Enemies to lovers only works if when the first moment that they interact, it just is explosive.
Jennifer Prokop 51:16 / #
And here's my other thing and I think this is similar for us. Enemies t0 lovers, I'm going to take a 999 times over friends to lovers because it's also really high heat. You can't have enemies to lovers at a low simmer. It is always explosive. And that's it. I love conflict. I want the gas turned up under that pot. Immediately. And that's the thing, all of those books really always come with, Come with the heat. They're comin in hot, and I that's what I want.
Sarah MacLean 52:00 / #
I also think that part of the challenge here, I said this earlier, when I said you know, I hate that we distill everything down to well, is it alpha? Is it beta? What is it? Because I do think I often struggle with the perception of the alpha as being incels. As being I hate women. I'm powerfulful. Women are weak. That's, that's not a good alpha. That's not a good alpha from the start and that alpha, the I hate women, women are weak, women exists for my pleasure, women exist for me to own, like, who's ever written that romance hero?
Jennifer Prokop 52:48 / #
No, I don't like that one.
Sarah MacLean 52:50 / #
But I don't think I've ever even read a book with a hero like that.
Jennifer Prokop 52:54 / #
I think it's a I think it's a misreading. Often those original 80s heroes, and we're going to read some of these, are I was a man who was profoundly hurt and it turned me into a misogynist, because I was so hurt by a woman. And I do not want to be hurt again. I fear being hurt again. That seems different to me.
Sarah MacLean 53:20 / #
Yeah, there's that classic trope in historicals where the hero the hero has had a string of mistresses or a string of relationships that mean nothing. And invariably, like that can be perceived as that can be read as he just he's a misogynist. He doesn't care about women and he doesn't care about women's bodies or women's feelings or anything. Then he meets the one. Yeah, and she's not like other girls. In my mind, I can totally see why that's a misread, meaning why people would read that as that's alpha and I hate it. You know, it's interesting because a lot of people have been talking about Whit, the hero of "Brazen and the Beast" as being an alpha and I'm like, wait, what? Because it feels like he's really not any of the things that people missread alphas as, but he's
Jennifer Prokop 54:21 / #
He's taciturn!
Sarah MacLean 54:22 / #
He's super big. And he doesn't really talk. And yeah, when he throws a punch, it lands hard. But he also lives in aapartment filled with pillows and books by women.
Jennifer Prokop 54:35 / #
He carries candy in his pockets! Look, you're not an alpha if you have candy in your pockets all the time! My God!
Sarah MacLean 54:45 / #
He's definitely submissive in the bedroom. And so I don't even know. I just feel like, be more discerning when you're using those words.
Jennifer Prokop 54:58 / #
Let's define the Alpha then like, let's have that be the thing we end this episode with, like, what does it mean when we talk about the alpha?
Jennifer Prokop 55:09 / #
Define it. So for me, like one hallmark of it is emotionally, not like--- they're going to start the book out of touch with their feelings and afraid of their feelings.
Sarah MacLean 55:22 / #
Yeah. I mean, if we have to define it, like I think that when we define it, like when we define it from IAD perspective, or from like, we're about to read "Dreaming of You," like from Derek Craven's perspective or from any of my hero'd perspectives? Yeah, they're like, emotional,
Jennifer Prokop 55:41 / #
toddlers.
Sarah MacLean 55:41 / #
I mean, yeah, they're like I was, yeah, they're like seedlings. and they just can't, they just have no frame of reference for like, the scope of humanity that they are about to experience and when they actually experience that humanity and that emotion They're fucking done for . And uniformly my heroes are done for.
Jennifer Prokop 56:09 / #
That's all I want, Sarah.
Sarah MacLean 56:14 / #
And I don't think that I mean, like, that's not me. That's all these women who I've read my whole life,
Jennifer Prokop 56:20 / #
I've been because, I've been thinking a lot about it right, I think another thing I often associate the alpha is that they are, and you say this all the time, that they are a King. In whatever it is that they have chosen to do, they are the best at what they do. But that they are always taking care of the people under them. At least like at least in a like a financial or security way, but not in an emotional way.
Sarah MacLean 56:51 / #
But what am i catnip scenes and any romance novel is the scene where the hero is like
Sarah MacLean 56:57 / #
befuddled By his feelings. It's like he just can't. He's like I think I'm having. It's like... Things are weird. Like my tummy is weird, and My head feels weird and she said a thing and it made me feel a thing and I don't, I can't identify any of the words, I have no words for any of it. And like a his servant, or his brother, or his Mom is like, What the fuck is wrong with you-- like you're having feelings?
Jennifer Prokop 57:28 / #
Yeah, hello, this is my favorite thing. My absolute all time favorite thing, Is the person who's like, welcome to the world of feelings.
Sarah MacLean 57:38 / #
What's wrong with you?
Jennifer Prokop 57:40 / #
Worthy! I just want to talk about Derek Craven. We're gonna do it next week.
Sarah MacLean 57:45 / #
But it's the best scene in a romance novel when everybody's like, Yeah, Hi. Welcome. And it's because, it just shows what emotional toddlers they are. And there is a joy to that, there's an immense fantasy like, it is an immense fantasy for so many people, including myself, to be able to say like, I'm whatever. Like, I love my husband a whole lot, but we have these moments. Sometimes I have a moment where I'm like, "I'm sad. And I don't know why." And he's like, "I don't, what does that even mean?" And I'm like, "I just, I'm just like, I need to cry. I need to have a cry." And he's like, "what is happening right now?" And I'm like, "I just help." He just can't like patriarchy is a hell of a drug and it has ruined them too.
Sarah MacLean 58:38 / #
and like the idea that you might have a hero who ultimately discovers that those feelings and is able to interact with them is really cool. And as I say that, I think like Well, that's what a cinnamon roll does from the start. But Then what else is happening? Are they on the run? Is there a murderer?
Jennifer Prokop 59:07 / #
Of course not they're cinnamon rolls.
Sarah MacLean 59:09 / #
Oh my god. I mean, what we really should do an interstitial about cinnamon roll heroes that we love because I do have some that I really love
Jennifer Prokop 59:18 / #
I mean, I feel like there's this joke I used to make, I don't really make it anymore because I think it's probably insensitive, I used to joke like, I need a wife. I need someone who's gonna take care of me. That is a very deep rooted fantasy that I think when I read a really perfect cinamon roll book, that's how I feel. o have someone who's going to take care of me, as opposed to like me taking care of them.
Sarah MacLean 59:43 / #
It's interesting because I do think this sort of brings up and we're obviously going over because we...welcome to Fated Mates everyone. But one of the things that I think is really interesting, I have this long conversation and she's going to come back on the pod this this season. Adrianna Herrera and I were talking about trauma and romance novels as you as you guys know who were listening last year. Adriana is a trauma specialist and she came she gave us a lot of really interesting insight about MacRieve. And she was a a guest on the Bowen episode. And one of the things that we were talking about in in terms of trauma we were talking about the end of "American Love Story," and I'm not going to spoil it but there the epilogue of "American Love Story" is like this really interesting. Or one of the final scenes of "American Love Story" is what is really interesting moment of marital of like, like marital idol like relationship idol, between the two heroes, where they are both doing serious emotional work, side by side as partners. And we were talking just about how There is room for the book that is telling this modern iteration of the romance, where it's a really authentic representation of the life, the struggles that we had in life, The heroes of this particular book are an activist and the lawyer. And so, they're just, they're never, it feels like these two people just have completely different worldviews. And so, that kind of relationship-- again, though, I've always said this in the hands of a tremendous author works really well--Also, so much conflict, so much emotional internal conflict in that story, because, ultimately, at their core, they have completely different views of like how life should be and, what their purpose is. Which is cool. So actually, forget everything. I Well, first of all, don't forget everything I just said because that's, that's it's a great book and it's a great read because you have these moments of this moment of, there is so much emotional conflict to unpack there. Unlike relationships where just two people who really super like each other, and which is like fanfic and that's a whole nother story but, we should have somebody on we should see if Cat Sebastian will come on, or somebody will come on who like, is really a fanfic lover. To talk to us about the way fanfic has an informed Modern Romance.
Jennifer Prokop 1:02:33 / #
I mean, I think that's it, like we're just trying to unpack all these different things. But for both of us, this question of the alpha and what it's doing and what it's done through time and why it's still it's always going to scratch that itch for us. Like, I don't, I don't want to lose that. There's something, those stories still really speak to me.
Sarah MacLean 1:02:54 / #
I mean, to be fair, Jen, I don't think you're gonna lose that. Those stories readers, I mean, a massive swath of romance readers, love that as a story. You know, I know that because I have a career. I want Sierra to come back on and I want us to talk about fearless romances this season because I think people I think a lot of writers are real afraid to write directly into ID. And I get that. Yeah, that's a scary, that's a scary thing to do. I have been there.
Sarah MacLean 1:03:39 / #
I'm there currently, you know, with the book that I'm writing. And I think, you know, harnessing, finding fearlessness is really difficult as a writer, especially in 2019, because you don't want to do it wrong. You don't want to harm anybody. But I think there are ways for us to tell the stories that have the Sort of high conflict explosive relationships that in a way that doesn't harm but actually you know, entertains and ultimately, pleasures, readers.
Jennifer Prokop 1:04:14 / #
That's all I want Sarah.
Sarah MacLean 1:04:16 / #
I know Same, same. Well, let's leave it there for today.
Sarah MacLean 1:04:21 / #
It was last ragey I think then it could have been I think we were really put together.
Jennifer Prokop 1:04:28 / #
I agree. I mean, I'm not I'm not mad at anybody. I want everyone to get what they want and what they need out of romance. That's all.
Sarah MacLean 1:04:36 / #
I just don't want anybody to feel like they're wrong for wanting what they want. you can't be both progressive and like an alpha. That's nonsense. Go read your books. That's fine. Like, yeah, you know, and so I think I think that's where I'm at. Like, let's not let-- women's bodies are getting enough policing these days, like let's not police their minds too.
Sarah MacLean 1:05:07 / #
This is Fated Mates everybody. It's the beginning of our new season next week we have our first book, "Dreaming of you" with our favorite, with Jen and mine..?
Jennifer Prokop 1:05:25 / #
With our
Sarah MacLean 1:05:26 / #
Our. I don't know. I don't know you guys I have a copy editor for that stuff
Jennifer Prokop 1:05:30 / #
This is the very reason why possessive pronouns were created.
Sarah MacLean 1:05:33 / #
Exactly why. With our one of our very, very favorite heroes. Top Five for me for sure. Definitely top two! It's Rune and Derek Craven. Anyway, so we will be back next week with a deep dive on that. you will no doubt have a lot of questions and a lot of concerns. If you've never read this book before.
Sarah MacLean 1:05:58 / #
Fine. Jen and I have a list. We're going to talk about it all. Don't worry, you'll be fine.
Jennifer Prokop 1:06:04 / #
We're gonna take care of you.
Sarah MacLean 1:06:05 / #
Yeah. Don't forget to like and subscribe on your favorite podcasting platform. You know, tell your friends about us and find us on Twitter at @FatedMates or on Instagram at @FatedMatesPod. What else? What else you want to say? We are both there's a romance for Raises fundraiser online. I think this is probably the last week of that. So you can head over to the link. We'll put it in show notes. I've got a manuscript critique up for auction. And Jen has a couple of really fun things including a Fated Mates book pack, which is great. So head over and bid on that. All the funds go directly to organizations working on the border. And we are really, really thrilled to be a part of that. Anyway, we love you guys, thank you so much for listening. Go read a book!
Jennifer Prokop 1:07:05 / #
See you next week with Derek Craven
17: Sexclamation Points! - The Player!
Our favorite person, Kate Clayborn, is back with us to wrap up the Game Makers series with THE PLAYER! Join us as Sarah explains all the ways that the damaged hero works for her (Spoiler: It’s Every Single Way), Kate digs deep on Kresley’s liberal use of punctuation, and Jen admits that Sarah was right all along.
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We’re getting down to the wire with IAD, but because we’re completists, we’re tackling the Dacians in two weeks with a two-for-one episode featuring both of these Lothaire spinoff stories, Shadow's Claim (featuring demon-sorceress Bettina and Dacian assassin Trehan) & Shadow's Seduction (featuring Caspion the demon and Mirceo the vampire prince)!
Show Notes
Wecome back, Kate!
The Grassy Knoll isn't much of a knoll, anymore. But if you're ever in Dallas, check out the Sixth Floor Museum.
This kind of teabagging does not appear on the Clayborn Scale.
YA Author Carrie Ryan has smart things to say about first person and scary things to say about zombies.
Famous for having a big reveal: The Usual Suspects, The Sixth Sense, and The DaVinci Code. Not famous for a big reveal: Meet Joe Black.
We should have asked Adriana Herrera about Dimitri's trauma.
Rocky was also a self-made man, and you cannot even convince Jen that the person who invented CrossFit didn't rapturously watch this a million times.
Dryer's English is a book that all the writing nerds had a pre-order, and he has strong opinions about exclamation points, but absolutley nothing to say about sexclamation points.
Everyone loves foreshadowing.
But in romance, no one loves an unreliable narrator.
Jen recommends the YA novel One of Us is Lying, or you could kick it old-school and watch Roshomon.
Pre-order Brazen and the Beast! and Love Lettering! And read Jen's interviews with Reese Ryan and Marie Tremayne and Robin Lovett on Kirkus.
In two weeks, we're back to IAD with the Dacian two-fer: Shadow's Claim & Shadow's Seduction!
13: Can Eastern Promises Viggo Mortensen Get It? - The Professional (Game Makers)
The Game Makers Series! Kresley’s first foray into contemporary begins with The Professional, which is some kind of book, y’all. Originally released in three parts over six weeks, The Professional stars Natalie, an American Ph.D. who happens to be the long lost daughter of a Russian mobster, and said mobster’s bodyguard, who can’t get enough of watching her in the tub. Or on his cellphone. Or tied up in a sex club. You’ll see!
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In two weeks, we’re back to IAD, just like the original Kresley fans were! Get ready to have your heart ripped out by these childhood lovers turned enemies turned lovers again! Poor Lanthe has been running from her Vrekener, Thronos since Kiss of the Demon King, and finally she gets her story! Read Dark Skye at Amazon, B&N, Apple Books, Kobo, or from your local Indie.
Show Notes
When we asked about the serialization of The Professional, listener Sarah Asnaashari came to the rescue!
Serialization of novels used to be very common, and although we've all heard the myth that Dickens was paid by the word, in fact he was paid by the installment.
Roxie Rivera is the author of the Her Russian Protector series, relevant to everyone's interests, she also wrote a "prison planet romance" series under the name Lolita Lopez.
Eastern Promises is a great movie.
Scroll down this list for the description of Edward's creepiness in Twilight.
Sookie Stackhouse is a telepath in the books and TV show. This is an interesting essay on why Hollywood should stop talking about telepathy as a disability.
Jen will never get tired of the greatest real estate listing ever.
Real hurricanes form over the Atlantic very similarly to the way Jen describes a hurricane of an alphahole forming.
We want characters to have agency.
The story of Anastasia Romanov is pretty amazing. Jen recommends this YA book called The Family Romanov for both adults and middle school readers.
George Michael's Listen Without Prejudice is an awesome album, and Jen still thinks Freedom is one the greatest music videos of all time. Sarah's theme song is Too Funky.
Jen recommends (in that "this book is terrifying way") The Man without a Face: the Unlikely Rise of Vladimir Putin. But if you just want the quick and dirty version, read this story about how Putin stole a superbowl ring from Robert Kraft.
Romance author Jayne Ann Krentz often talks about how author's have a "core story."
Dark Skye is our next IAD book.
12: Do Not Let the Lykae into the Yankee Candle Store: MacRieve
MacRieve is here and so is friend of the pod, Sierra Simone! We’re so excited to talk about The Full Kresley, what makes erotic romance, The Simone Scale™ of taboo romance, why MacRieve is so tough to read, why Sarah thinks it might be Kresley’s best book, and why Chloe is such a badass. There’s a lot of hysterical laughter, and Sarah is preparing for legal action.
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In two weeks, we’re starting Kresley’s contemporary series The Game Makers (we’re reading the books in original publication order) with The Professional. Get ready for Wroth Brother fanfic that Kresley herself refers to as “way sexier” then IAD. Get The Professional at Amazon, B&N, Apple Books, Kobo, or from your local Indie.
Show Notes
The NECRWA conference always sounds so great!
I don't even know where to start with Andie Christopher and her Chris Evans obssession.
Avengers Endgame, that ol' chesnut.
We stan Sierra Simone, and we love The Sierra Simone Scale™. Check out her two latest, Misadventures of a Curvy Girl and A Lesson in Thorns.
Debbie Macomber is a queen of small town contemporary romance.
You can't stop me, you can only hope to contain me is a play on a very catchy ESPN phrase from back in the day.
Adriana Herrera wrote about how to ethically write about sexual trauma for Smart Bitches. She also joined us to talk about Food Romances & her most recent release.
Adriana Anders' Under Her Skin explores a story of a woman's traumatic past, as does Long Shot by Kennedy Ryan.
Suzanne from Love In Panels wrote a great explainer about content warnings and why we use them.
This is a powerful critique of sexual violence in Game of Thrones.
Just last year, two books about women and anger were published: Rage Becomes Her by Soraya Chemaly and Good and Mad by Rebecca Traister.
More about emotional dysregulation.
The Black Lyon by Jude Deveraux is an old school classic.
Dick flu is definitely some BDE.
You'd be surprised about how much writer's advice you can find about the evils of the info dump.
There's an entire subreddit dedicated to ranting about Comcast.
Yankee Candle will eff a werewolf up.
You can listen to Kresley on the Wicked Wallflowers podcast.
The story of Sir Walter Raleigh throwing down his cape for Queen Elizabeth to walk over is not historically accurate, but it still makes for a great scene in Shakespeare in Love.
The Fifth Element is a completely rewatchable movie.
All about the Mothman, who, it bears pointing out, Lothaire says exists.
Here's the beginning of Sarah's stalking of Sierra after reading (and loving) Priest.
Next time, we're going off road and have decided we'll be reading the first book in The Game Makers series, The Professional. Here's the reading order for the rest of Fated Mates Season One.
Lost Limb Count
Arms and Hands (8)
- Conrad cuts off his own hand with a rusty axe so he escape the "witched" chains his brothers locked him in. (Dark Needs at Night's Edge)
- Cadeon has both of his hands burned off in the same scene where he loses an eye. There's description of what Cade's baby fingers look like as they are re-growing. It's...kinda gross. (Dark Desires After Dusk)
- Sebastian pulverizes most of his right arm during the Hie. He regenerates. (No Rest For the Wicked)
- Lucia peels all the skin off from her hand in order to free herself from some handcuffs. (Pleasure of a Dark Prince)
- In order to retrieve the ring from La Dorada , Lothaire cuts off her finger. (Pleasure of a Dark Prince)
- Lanthe and Carrow cut off Fegley's hand so they can use his thumb to unlock their torques. He's later killed. (Demon from the Dark)
- After receiving Lothaire's heart in a box, Ellie cuts off her middle finger and sends it to him. (Lothaire)
- Chloe's shoulder is dislocated in the escape from her auction (MacRieve).
Chest and Torso (7)
- Omort severs Rydstrom's spine and punches through his torso in a fight. Sabine saves him and enlists Hag to help heal him. (Kiss of a Demon King)
- Lucia's neck is broken. She regenerates. (Pleasure of a Dark Prince)
- On Torture Island, Regin,
- MacRieve,
- and Brandr are vivisected. It's pretty terrible. (Dreams of a Dark Warrior)
- Declan's skin is peeled off by the Neoptera as a child. (Dreams of a Dark Warrior)
- Lothaire rips out his own heart and sends it to Ellie in a box. (Lothaire)
Head, Face, and Eyes (6)
- Bowen loses an eye and most of his forehead during the Hie. Mariketa has cursed him and he can't heal until he returns to her. (Wicked Deeds on a Winter's Night)
- Cadeon loses an eye and part of his forehead and hair when fighting. It all regenerates. (Dark Desires After Dusk)
- During a rugby match, Garreth has his teeth knocked out and swallows them. (Pleasure of a Dark Prince)
- Lothaire kicks out La Dorada's remaining eye and throws her over a cliff. (Dreams of a Dark Warrior)
- In the Bloodroot Forest, the tree grows over Lothaire's lips and tongue. (Lothaire)
- After she gains her immortality, Chloe's hair grows, but she cuts it off every morning. (MacRieve)
Horns (2)
- Cadeon cuts off his own horns to prove to Holly that he is worthy of being her mate. She tells him to let them grow back (Dark Desires After Dusk)
- Malkolm is captured by his enemies in Oblivion and taken to the city of Ash. The publicly cut off his horns and then intend to kill him, but Carrow saves him. (Demon from the Dark)
Legs and Feet (3)
- Lachlain tears off his own leg to reach Emma. He regenerates. (A Hunger Like No Other)
- Mariketa's skull is fractured and her leg is torn from her body. She heals herself after Bowen lays on the ground. Ivy grows over her and heals her. (Wicked Deeds on a Winter's Night)
- Thronos is chasing Melananthe and loses a foot when a portal closes on it. (Kiss of a Demon King)
Beheading as a Romantic Gesture (4)
- The first time Garreth spies Lucia, it's when she shoots an arrow and beheads a kobold. He notices that it's "a fantastical shot" and he's super into it. Later, he helps her pick up the head because he's a real gentleman like that. (Pleasure of a Dark Prince)
- Later in the book, they are under attack from vampires and Lucia asks him to help. Garreth promises to "give her their throats" and beheads two vampires. But she's upset about it because of a previous bad experience with cannibalism. (Pleasure of a Dark Prince)
- Malkolm beheads men that attacked Carrow in Oblvion, and he throws them to prove he's a worthy mate. (Demon from the Dark)
- Declan fights and beheads several creatures as they escape Torture Island, including squeezing one dude so hard his eyes pop out and then he twists his head off. (Dreams of a Dark Warrior)
Beheading as a Non-Romantic Gesture
- Ellie cuts off Lothaire's head, leaving a slender 1/8 of an inch left. It was kind of an accident, but he deserved it. (Lothaire)
Maybe?
- Does Garreth's losing his connection with his mortal soul count? (Pleasure of a Dark Prince)
- When Soroya inhabited Ellie's body, she subjected her to a full Brazilian wax. Ellie doesn't realize it's happened until she takes control of her body again. (Lothaire)
6: Reclaiming the Unlikeable Heroine: Kiss of a Demon King
One of the best loved books in the IAD universe, this week we’re talking about Kiss of A Demon King, the completion of the Demonarchy Duology, starring Rydstrom, the deposed King of Rothkalina, and his fated mate, Sabine, the Queen of Illusions, which is an incredibly handy power.
We’ve got a fabulous guest host this week, Jenny Nordbak from our sister romance podcast, The Wicked Wallflowers Club. Jenny is ride-or-die for Sabine, and she’s got a fabulous personal story about her relationship with the book that we’re thrilled to share with you.
This episode, we’re talking traumatic pasts, horns (I mean, obviously), villains, the unlikeable heroine (a whole lot), and we’ll come back around to Cade & Holly and tackle the unfinished business from their book!
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Novellas are up next! We told you we’d get to the rest of the Wroth Brothers eventually, and eventually is here! Our next read-along episode will tackle both novellas, The Warlord Wants Forever (Nikolai) & Untouchable (Murdoch), available in the Deep Kiss of Winter anthology! This will be the last time we tackle vampires until Lothaire, so get your fill!
A Note: There are two version of The Warlord Wants Forever — you want the most recent version.
Show Notes
Our special guest this week is Jenny Nordbak, author of the memoir, The Scarlett Letters: My Secret Year of Men in an LA Dungeon and co-host of the Wicked Wallflowers Club Podcast.
All about the freudian slip.
Here is Wendy's blog post about the righted world, along with a twitter thread that Jennifer Porter wrote that eloquently talks about the importance of this idea. Teach Me Tonight jumped in with a look at how this same phenomenon plays out in academia.
Jen's friend Liz, the Latin teacher!, loved this book for the sheer number of classical allusions. Here's a report of some of her mort specific findings:
"mors, mortis" means death in Latin, so O-mort means "without death" or "in the way of death."
The Ourbouros is an ancient symbol that shows up in Egyptian traditions.
Finally, the invaders that Omort led into Tornin--the Invidia, Libitinae, and Undines--are also Latin allusions, and they're really evil in the classical world. (Invidia--this Latin word means jealousy and personified envy. Undines-- Latin word for female spirits that inhabit the water. Libitinae--has several meanings: the goddess of corpses (in her temple were kept the funeral apparatus and registries of death), the apparatus of funerals, or death itself.)
Jen's interview with Adriana about Domestic Violence in romance.
The name Sabine might be a reference to Rome's neighbors, the Sabines. The story of the abduction of the Sabine women has been told in art over and over again. It's intersting to consider why this name was used: perhaps to reclaim a story where sex was a weapon used against women?
Melanthe means "dark flower" in Latin, and she was a minor character in the Odyssey.
Gone with the Wind has a very problematic portrayal of the happy slave and the good master. House elves aren't much better.
The Wicked Wallflower's IAD Spreadsheet of Wonder.
All the horn photos are on Instagram.
The Babysitter's Club Summer Special, and all the other amazing goodness of the Scholastic Book Club. And in case you didn't know, the Scholastic Book Club & its Book Fairs are still a thing.
Jenny's book is called The Scarlett Letters: My Secret Year of Men in an LA Dungeon.
That Mr. Too Big (not to be confused with Mr. Big) Sex in the City episode.
The Arcana Chronicles is a YA series by Kresley.
Why yes, both Sarah and Jen have been on the Wicked Wallflowers podcast. When you're done listening to this episode of Fated Mates, head over to listen, and don't forget their interview with Kresley Cole & Gena Showalter!
The Warlord Wants Forever & Untouchable (in the Deep Kiss of Winter anthology) are coming up next.
Lost Limb Count
Arms and Hands (3)
- Conrad cuts off his own hand with a rusty axe so he escape the "witched" chains his brothers locked him in. (Dark Needs at Night's Edge)
- Cadeon has both of his hands burned off in the same scene where he loses an eye. There's description of what Cade's baby fingers look like as they are re-growing. It's...kinda gross. (Dark Desires After Dusk)
- Sebastian pulverizes most of his right arm during the Hie. He regenerates. (No Rest For the Wicked)
Chest and Torso (1)
- Omort severs Rydstrom's spine and punches through his torso in a fight. Sabine saves him and enlists Hag to help heal him. (Kiss of a Demon King)
Face and Eyes (2)
- Bowen loses an eye and most of his forehead during the Hie. Mariketa has cursed him and he can't heal until he returns to her. (Wicked Deeds on a Winter's Night)
- Cadeon loses an eye and part of his forehead and hair when fighting. It all regenerates. (Dark Desires After Dusk)
Legs and Feet (3)
- Lachlain tears off his own leg to reach Emma. He regenerates. (A Hunger Like No Other)
- Mariketa's skull is fractured and her leg is torn from her body. She heals herself after Bowen lays on the ground. Ivy grows over her and heals her. (Wicked Deeds on a Winter's Night)
- Thronos is chasing Melananthe and loses a foot when a portal closes on it. (Kiss of a Demon King)
1: We're Gonna Come Back to Biting - A Hunger Like No Other
Sarah & Jen talk A Hunger Like No Other, why reading Alphas in 2018 is a tricky situation, how Kresley instantly changed the game with Lachlain MacRieve, and why Emma's bite sets the standard for the whole series.
Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, a like would be awesome!
Our next read (in two weeks) will be No Rest for the Wicked — the story of Sebastian Wroth (vampire) and Kaderin the Cold-Hearted (valkyrie), and the beginning of the IAD Amazing Race mini-arc!
Show Notes
Why do people hate the word moist?
There really are catacombs below Paris, and they seem very creepy.
Co-ed is a more dated word than you'd expect. According to the Oxford English dictionary, it's been in use since the 1880s. Game, set, and match to The Independent, which printed the following sentence in 1903: "Any college where the girls are commonly called ‘co-eds’ is not a truly co-educational institution."
The TSTL trope in romance heroines.
The Fated Mates trope.
Maybe you all missed the Kavanaugh hearings. I love myself, so we'll just stick to one informative infographic.
Jen's romance book club at 57th Street Books in Chicago's Hyde Park neighborhood. If you're not in Chicago, bookstores and libraries across the country and online will be participating in The Great Big Romance Read in December 2018. Find your people!
Romance isn't the only genre examining old favorites through the lens of #MeToo. Molly Ringwald looked back at John Hughes and The Breakfast Club in The New Yorker. This podcast from WNYC is about pop culture in the #MeToo era.
The list of RITA award winners, sorted by year.
A million articles have been written about Twilight, but I like this one that looks at the big themes that bubble up time and time again.
Alisha Rai has said lots of smart things about toxic masculinity, as it turns out.
Representation in BDSM matters.
Take a crash course in modernity.
A brief overview of Cassandra from Greek mythology.
The Devil in Winter, because everyone loves to read about a sex deal.
According to The Smart Bitches, a magic hoo-hah is "shorthand for the equally illustrious and many powers of the female sex organ, specifically the vagina. The Magic Hoo-Hoo tames the Mighty Wang, and becomes the magnetized true north for the hero’s trouser compass from the point of their first sexual coupling. The Magic Hoo-Hoo brings the hero to monogamous attachment, because after experiencing it, the hero will not be satisfied with anything or anyone else."
I'm sure everyone wants to learn more about moon phases.
Fury is an actual furie.
When we say Lothaire was a big deal, we mean there was an actual Lothaire bus touring around America.
Are you ready for No Rest for the Wicked?
