full-length episode, jen and sarah on a rant, romance recommendations, S03 - Interstitials Sarah MacLean full-length episode, jen and sarah on a rant, romance recommendations, S03 - Interstitials Sarah MacLean

S03.06: We Are Grateful For You - Freewheeling with Sarah & Jen

This is a tough week for everyone, so we did what we could do to make ourselves feel a little bit more ourselves despite existential despair—we recorded a podcast. We’re all over the place (we promise this won’t be a theme for the whole season!), but we recommend a TON of books, which is basically all we can do.

We’ve got another episode for you later this week, and next week, we’re deep diving on Alisha Rai’s Serving Pleasure, which is a fantastic erotic romance. Find it at Amazon, B&N, Kobo, Apple Books or Bookshop.org.

Also -- Sarah has a contemporary novella out September 15th! Preorder the Naughty Brits anthology, wherever you get your ebooks: Amazon, Nook, Kobo, Apple, or in print at bookshop.org.

Show Notes

TRANSCRIPT

Ani DiFranco Music Lyric 0:00 / #
My mother was a feminist, she taught me to see the road to ruin is paved with patriarchy. So, let the way of the women guide democracy. From plunder and pollution let mother earth be free. Feminism ain't about women. No, that's not who it is for. It's about a shifting consciousness that'll bring an end to war. So listen up you fathers, listen up you sons. Which side are you on now, which side are you on.

Sarah MacLean 0:38 / #
So we threw our plan out for the week.

Jennifer Prokop 0:40 / #
We did.

Sarah MacLean 0:42 / #
Cuz everything is terrible.

Jennifer Prokop 0:44 / #
Yeah. It's been a bad week.

Sarah MacLean 0:49 / #
Literally, the first thing I texted Jen last night was we got to do a podcast this week. We got to do an episode.

Jennifer Prokop 0:56 / #
Well, because it's September 19. We're recording and last night, Ruth Bader Ginsburg died.

Sarah MacLean 1:03 / #
So I sat on the floor of my bathroom for a little while and cried. And then I walked out of the bathroom and Eric was standing in the hallway. I said, "I feel like this is real existential. This is what existential despair feels like". And he said, "You only just got here."

Jennifer Prokop 1:22 / #
Yeah, there was this Onion article, I guess, it was a tweet. It was sort of like, man who thought he lost all hope realizes he'd really, like really? Now? And that was that was me. Right? I was like, oh.

Sarah MacLean 1:37 / #
But also we had planned to start Joy this week. As a podcast concept. And you know.

Jennifer Prokop 1:46 / #
Maybe...can I suggest that we talk about romance as solace this week, then?

Sarah MacLean 1:51 / #
Yeah. I mean, it's all part and parcel, right? As my mom would say. I don't know. What would we say? We are...I think we are sad. And scared, and mad. And pissed off.

Jennifer Prokop 2:15 / #
Yeah, we're angry. You know? Well, let's say welcome to Fated Mates. Before we move on, we should actually tell people what they're listening to.

Sarah MacLean 2:24 / #
I'm Sarah MacLean. I write romance novels, and I read romance novels.

Jennifer Prokop 2:29 / #
And I'm Jennifer Prokop. I am a romance reader and critic.

Sarah MacLean 2:34 / #
And we are here for you guys this week, because you're here for us this week. I woke up this morning to, a lot of tweets, and DMs. And I just want you guys to know I read a bunch of them out loud to Jen just now. And every one of them is making us feel better.

Jennifer Prokop 2:54 / #
Yeah. I guess what, you know what, here's one other thing I want to say before we start which is. This is like a thing we Ruth Bader Ginsburg dying is, I mean, she was an amazing woman, she, our democracy should not rest upon the life of one 87 year old white woman. This was also a week where we got some really shocking, not... maybe shocking is not the right word, but terrifying news about forced hysterectomies.

Sarah MacLean 3:24 / #
Horrible, monsterous news.

Jennifer Prokop 3:26 / #
Of women in detention by a doctor who is not even a doctor. And I think it's really important, you know, as two women who live in urban areas in blue states, this is, you know, there's a planned parenthood, I drive past all the time, my access to reproductive rights is not a question. That's not really true for women who live in red states. It's not true, where also, I think its not true for poor women. They are the ways in which reproductive rights have stratified based on your geography, based on your income, based on your race. You know, this has been a long time coming. And I think in some ways, I just want to say our existential fear and dread is because now it's everyone. Not just poor women, not just brown and black women, not just women in state, in rural states or rural areas. I mean, so it's really I think it's really hard.

Sarah MacLean 4:24 / #
And not just women.

Jennifer Prokop 4:25 / #
Not just women, right.

Sarah MacLean 4:28 / #
So, yeah, we're having we're having a, we're having a time of it, and I think so are a lot of you. So, we want to talk about how we move forward in this. So we're gonna do our best today. But if this is not a thing that you're ready to listen to, sure, maybe go back and listen to the Rune week episode. I am rereading "Sweet Ruin" for the 83rd time.

Jennifer Prokop 5:08 / #
Can we also talk about how amazing Ruth Bader Ginsburg was. So Little Romance and I one year went, and I dressed as Ruth Bader Ginsburg for Halloween. I, as you all know, teach in the middle school and Little Romance goes to my school. And he was like, "Well, I guess I'll go as a Supreme Court Justice, too." And then he asked a really interesting question, because kids are so funny. And I was like, "Well, you know, there's all these other dudes." And he said, "Well, which one is the most powerful?" I said, "Well, that would be Chief Justice John Roberts." And so he decided that that would be what he would tell people, I mean, he just wore like a black graduation robe. I will put the picture in show notes. It's amazing. Adorable. Um, he was like, "Yeah, I'll just tell everybody I'm John Roberts."

Sarah MacLean 5:55 / #
And imagine at the time you were like, "ugh", but now we're like, "Please God, make Roberts be the sane one in this mix."

Jennifer Prokop 6:04 / #
Yeah. Right.

Sarah MacLean 6:08 / #
Anyway. My Ruth Bader Ginsburg story is that I have a six year old girl, who is six years old in the age of "Good Night Stories for Rebel Girls", which is a really fantastic Kickstarter that became a book series. It was Kickstarted as a hardcover book that is gorgeous. It's a storybook, where it's 50 women throughout the ages from Cleopatra, and Grace O'Malley, a pirate from the 1500s, to Serena Williams, and Malala Yousafzai. And what's amazing is many of these women you have heard of, many of them you have not heard of. And each book, each story is one page long. And then on the facing page is this gorgeous illustration of the the person, whoever the person is. We Kickstarted the first one, and then of course it took off, and now there are I think, three books.

Jennifer Prokop 7:27 / #
That's awesome.

Sarah MacLean 7:28 / #
But they've also started a podcast called, "Good Night Stories for Rebel Girls". We will put links in show notes. I tweeted about it this morning. Because there is a Ruth Bader Ginsburg episode of the podcast, which is fabulous. And this is for like the parents out there. If you are looking for a way to explain Ruth Bader Ginsburg's life and legacy to littles. This podcast is really excellent. So it tells the story, it tells her story, her story of going to graduate school, of going to law school. And being a woman in law school and marrying Marty, and Marty getting cancer and her taking notes for him in class, all while making the Harvard Law Review. But it really is a, sort of, digestible story of Ruth Bader Ginsburg's whole life as a rebel girl.

Jennifer Prokop 8:22 / #
That's awesome.

Sarah MacLean 8:23 / #
And my daughter loves this podcast. And you know, there are all sorts of very, very cool women as part of this podcast. And she's always telling me about these cool women from the podcast. And one day, she came to me about two or three months ago, and she said, "Mom, have you heard of Ruth Bader Ginsburg?" And I said, "I have heard her". And she said, "She is really cool, isn't she?" And I was like, "She really, really is." She's probably listened to that episode of the podcast 25 times. So, we'll put links to it in show notes. It's a great podcast, even for big rebel girls like us.

Jennifer Prokop 9:19 / #
Yeah. I think it's amazing the way in which her life was really celebrated when she was still alive. Like the notorious RBG book or the RBG documentary.

Sarah MacLean 9:33 / #
The Ruth Bader Ginsburg workout book.

Jennifer Prokop 9:36 / #
Oh, yeah. Right. I mean, I had a friend of mine, my friend, she texted me this morning. She's like,' look, I just ordered it because if she could be a badass at that age, then I can be a badass at my age". And I was like, I like it. I like it. So I think there was a way in which we celebrated her life while it was still going.

Sarah MacLean 9:56 / #
Yeah, she knew we thought she was awesome. Which is cool. That's not...that's not something everybody gets, right? I mean, I'm real bummed that we made this poor woman hold together a democracy. At her age she should have been able to live out her golden years. Right? Anyway, it's rough out there everyone, so you want to be gentle with yourselves. And I guess that's where Jen is going with romance as solace. You know, last night, I was sitting on the couch and I was sort of, you know, thousand yard staring at the TV. And Eric looked at me and was like, "What can you do right now? Like, can you read a romance novel?"

Jennifer Prokop 10:47 / #
I love that.

Sarah MacLean 10:47 / #
Like it was medicinal. "Would you like bourbon? Would you like marijuana?"

Jennifer Prokop 10:54 / #
Straight shot. Right? No fooling around.

Sarah MacLean 10:56 / #
"Is there a book you can be reading right now?" And then he was like, " You're an insominac, Jen is an insomniac. Why don't you just record a podcast?" And I was like, "What is happening right now?" He was like casting at straws. What can we be doing? Um, but I think that, you know, that is the point, right? The romance novel. His instinct was, go read a romance novel, because I know they make you happy. And I did actually get into bed and I read half of a romance novel that I can't tell any of you about because it doesn't technically exist. But it's great. And then this morning, you know, I just feel like, today, all I want to do is crawl into bed now with "Sweet Ruin". And you know...cuddle.

Jennifer Prokop 11:49 / #
I think it's really interesting to think about, romance novel is solace, but also the ways in which we approach that, because for me, that's rereading, but it's also for many people, they have the--we joke about the break in case of emergency romance. Right? That one by a favorite author that you have never read that you are like holding for that time. And I will tell you I have never read the Lisa Kleypas with Cam.

Sarah MacLean 12:26 / #
GASP

Jennifer Prokop 12:26 / #
I have been holding that... like it's been on for years. Years, I have been waiting for like a day where I just know that I'm gonna need, need that and I feel like this might be the day. Oh, this might be the day.

Sarah MacLean 12:45 / #
That's a big day. Yeah. I mean, Kresley if you're listening right now, it would be a great time to drop "Munro."

Jennifer Prokop 12:56 / #
God, like Calgon take me away.

Sarah MacLean 13:00 / #
Kresley is like, "These motherfuckers."

Jennifer Prokop 13:02 / #
No, listen. No Kresley loves us.

Sarah MacLean 13:08 / #
Oh, my God. I mean, literally a second before we started recording, I read the tweet that announced--Thank you Twitter for just always taking care of me--someone made sure that I saw that it is it is unconfirmed, but rumored that Tom Hardy is about to become James Bond. And I was like, I'm having a heart attack. I'm MacRieve braining over here. Because I can't handle it. It's...the highs and lows are too much.

Jennifer Prokop 13:45 / #
You know what's really funny is.... I did last night think maybe I should watch a James Bond movie.

Sarah MacLean 13:49 / #
Because you're reading Lee Child!

Jennifer Prokop 13:51 / #
Handsome men blow things up is real solace to me.

Sarah MacLean 13:54 / #
I mean, Tom Hardy taking off his shirt and shooting things.

Jennifer Prokop 13:58 / #
Fine.

Sarah MacLean 13:58 / #
I mean, I'll allow it.

Jennifer Prokop 14:00 / #
He'll have to like roll up his sleeves. Sarah.

Sarah MacLean 14:03 / #
Also, you know what else gave me joy yesterday? Yesterday morning was a very high and low day for me, Jen.

Jennifer Prokop 14:11 / #
That thread!

Sarah MacLean 14:12 / #
You guys, I know. We're all just trying to find hope and joy.

Jennifer Prokop 14:19 / #
Listen coping mechanisms are fine.

Sarah MacLean 14:22 / #
I woke up yesterday morning to a magnificent reader named Melissa to discover that she had spent her evening the night before, and I hope you enjoyed yourself, Melissa. Finding photographs of Tom Hardy that she could pair with Sarah MacLean covers. And then thread was Tom Hardy as Sarah MacLean covers, and it was really, really crazy. "The Day of the Duchess"....

Jennifer Prokop 14:51 / #
"The Day of The Duchess" one is unreal.

Sarah MacLean 14:56 / #
He's such a dirtbag! We are putting that show notes. For sure.

Jennifer Prokop 15:00 / #
Maybe that's all show notes is gonna be.

Sarah MacLean 15:02 / #
What is that picture? The whole picture for this episode should be Tom Hardy as "Day of the Duchess".

Jennifer Prokop 15:07 / #
I can make that happen, I can do that. I have the power. Oh, you know all the chapter images this week will just be those from that.

Sarah MacLean 15:17 / #
Oh my god. So anyway, thanks so much somebody else had done Henry Cavill as Sarah MacLean covers the day before ... you are out there doing the Lord's work for me this week. So thank you. I mean, yeah, I pulled up that Jurgen Klopp, tweet thread last night I was on the phone with you and I'm gonna go read that Jurgen Klopp tweet--This is where I'm at you guys-- I'm finding old Twitter threads to like just suck out the marrow of joy. But you know, then tonight we're hanging out with our friends, we have a plan for tonight to hang out with our good friends and watch this dumb 50 Shades movie.

Jennifer Prokop 16:09 / #
I don't even care. Listen, I don't know that we've updated everyone.

Sarah MacLean 16:13 / #
I'm enjoying it more than I really should, I think.

Jennifer Prokop 16:15 / #
Okay, so we watched number two with everyone now. Okay, so wait here's --everyone-- I have a secret.

Sarah MacLean 16:21 / #
If they're not listening--it's a secret? Jen we have tens of thousands of listeners.

Jennifer Prokop 16:27 / #
No, no this part isnt a secret, we know this part, no listen. If you listen, we talked about...Sarah watched the first one with the RITA writers room.

Sarah MacLean 16:39 / #
Really we don't have to refer to them that way anymore. How about... let's do it this way. Okay, just name them.

Jennifer Prokop 16:45 / #
So Alexis Daria, Adriana Herrera...was LaQuette watching it the first time around?

Sarah MacLean 16:50 / #
No, but LaQuette's on the thread because she just likes to mock us.

Jennifer Prokop 16:54 / #
Her text notification the next morning must be insane. Nisha Sharma, Tracey Livesey, and then Andie Christopher.

Sarah MacLean 17:01 / #
And so, here's the fun thing. So Tracey is basically cruise directing this whole thing. You all know this if you listened to the Tracey episode, we talked about this. So she's cruise directing and Nisha comes in. I mean, wearing the full...I mean, 50 Shades head to toe, she's got you know, Christian Grey sneakers. And then we go through the first movie. We watch together, then Jen joins us for 50 Shades...Freed?

Jennifer Prokop 17:32 / #
Okay, so here was the thing...

Sarah MacLean 17:33 / #
No. Darker.

Jennifer Prokop 17:36 / #
I watched the first one on my own I was like, I gotta catch up so that next time they watch...

Sarah MacLean 17:40 / #
Tell everyone this is a confession.

Jennifer Prokop 17:42 / #
Okay, this actual part it's a confession. It's not a secret it's a confession. So

Sarah MacLean 17:46 / #
Jen is a traitorous betrayer.

Jennifer Prokop 17:48 / #
Right so Tracey and I watched the second one together.

Sarah MacLean 17:52 / #
Tracey is a traitorous betrayer.

Jennifer Prokop 17:55 / #
Cuz I was like, I'm kind of obsessed with this. I really want to watch the next one. And I had never read the books. So it was all new to me. Meanwhile, the entire time I was like, Tracey, does this happen in the book? Tracey? Does this happen in the book? Because she was like, "I don't know". It's fine. But, I did secretly watch the second one. And then we watched it all together. But tonight, I'm going in cold on 50 Shades Freed. Is that what it was called?

Sarah MacLean 18:19 / #
Allegedly.

Jennifer Prokop 18:20 / #
What do you mean? allegedly?

Sarah MacLean 18:21 / #
Allegedly.

Jennifer Prokop 18:22 / #
Oh you think I'm lying.

Sarah MacLean 18:22 / #
You lied to me once before. How can I ever trust you when it comes E.L. James? Jamie Dornan and his weird leprechaun head?

Jennifer Prokop 18:32 / #
And his bow tie!

Sarah MacLean 18:34 / #
Ok! I'm gonna ruin 50 Shades Darker for you guys. You ready? The masquerade ball? which everybody knows I love a masquerade. I mean...come on now. Every romance, right? Oh, we should talk about masquerades and like the promise of the masquerade. We've never done that. And that's a fun conversation.

Jennifer Prokop 18:50 / #
Right.

Sarah MacLean 18:50 / #
But I'm gonna ruin it first. So the 50 Shades masquerade in the second book. Like it's sexy, right? He gives her mask and then they go to his parents' house and then they like, do a lot of naughty stuff in his parents house which, Alexis Daria, was not on board, nor was Adriana Herrera, not on board with it. Not Okay. Um, but mainly Adriana is not okay through...I would say 80%.

Jennifer Prokop 19:19 / #
Okay, except for the amazing scene where he flips her.

Sarah MacLean 19:22 / #
Oh, the flip. Forget it. It's real hot.

Jennifer Prokop 19:25 / #
I rewatched that several times. I was like, how is there no GIF of this. And then Adriana was like, "sorry, I'm behind! I had to go back and watch that flip a few times".

Sarah MacLean 19:31 / #
Yeah Adriana just peaced out of the watch from all of us. And like went back to rewatch the flip, which is great. I mean, I support your choices. Anyway, we're watching it. And the masquerade comes on and you guys, Christian's bow tie in this masquerade scene is like a baby's bow tie. It's like a child's bow tie. And I literally throw into text thread--We have an ongoing text thread-- we're watching this and like, why is his bow tie so tiny? And then I kind of ruined it for Tracey, because she'd never noticed.

Jennifer Prokop 20:07 / #
And then you can't not know.

Sarah MacLean 20:09 / #
Now once I've said that to you, you can't not notice it's just a tiny little bow tie.

Jennifer Prokop 20:13 / #
I'm gonna admit something too. So I love a masquerade scene in a book, but I'm always like, how do these mfer's not fucking recognize each other?

Sarah MacLean 20:22 / #
The have to know? Right?

Jennifer Prokop 20:23 / #
Right? They have to know. And then we are watching it with me and Tracey -- sorry -- and I was like, who is this blonde woman talking to Christian? Is it her friend and she's like, no, it's a sister. And I was like, God, reader me is like, "How do they not recognize each other?" Watcher me is like, "Who the fuck is this? Again? She's got a mask on. I don't know."

Sarah MacLean 20:40 / #
Everybody's in a mask. They're just invisible now. Yes, it's except, except the hero always knows who the heroine is.

Jennifer Prokop 20:49 / #
Sure.

Sarah MacLean 20:50 / #
I mean, always.

Jennifer Prokop 20:52 / #
Always.

Sarah MacLean 20:53 / #
Cuz that is... I get the most positive response to the first line in "Daring of the Duke" of the masquerade from his point of view, because I think the first line of that chapter is like, he knew it was her the moment she entered.

Jennifer Prokop 21:06 / #
Right. And she doesn't think he knows.

Sarah MacLean 21:08 / #
Right and cuz she's like, masked. she's wearing a wig. She's like masked. He's like, doesn't matter. No, he's like, I smell you. Like he smells her. Fated Fucking Mates.

Jennifer Prokop 21:18 / #
I was just saying it's like that old category where the guy can smell pregnant women. What was it? What was that one?

Sarah MacLean 21:28 / #
"Warrior"! You guys. I'm gonna reread "Warrior" this week.

Jennifer Prokop 21:33 / #
See? There you go.

Sarah MacLean 21:34 / #
Today, because he can smell women pregnant.

Jennifer Prokop 21:37 / #
He'd definitely know how to identify someone at a masquerade.

Sarah MacLean 21:40 / #
For romance reasons.

Jennifer Prokop 21:42 / #
Here's the other thing -- I was thinking about several things...

Sarah MacLean 21:46 / #
I would... wait, I'm sorry. I want to go back to "Warrior" for a second. Because Nevada --the hero of "Warrior" who can smell women pregnant-- Elizabeth Lowell does some real solid foreshadowing work. Jennifer. Um, was that this episode? No different episode.

Jennifer Prokop 22:03 / #
One day it'll makes sense. We're foreshadowing a future joke about foreshadowing.

Sarah MacLean 22:08 / #
So Elizabeth Lowell does some really great foreshadowing work because he smells pregnancy in like four books before that book. And then she's looking at her, at her notes on him. And she's like, oh, he smells pregnancy. So bam. I know how this is gonna go.

Jennifer Prokop 22:23 / #
Here's the thing about this masquerade scene though. Like, I'm not really a person to pay attention to continuity things... but, before the masquerade, Ana is dressed in some very lovely lingerie. It is truly beautiful. In fact, it only... you know it also remind me of? Season One of Deadwood. Remember when Alma finally gets it on with the--what's his name?

Sarah MacLean 22:46 / #
Crazy eyes. Timothy Olyphant.

Jennifer Prokop 22:47 / #
Yes. She is also wearing some beautiful undergarments. I remember really being like, wow, that is lovely. Do you remember that?

Sarah MacLean 22:54 / #
I don't remember it. But I'm gonna...

Jennifer Prokop 22:56 / #
Find it and I'll like,

Sarah MacLean 22:57 / #
It's a really nice corset.

Jennifer Prokop 22:59 / #
Yes, but it's like kind of black lace and it's very sheer.

Sarah MacLean 23:03 / #
It's mourning undergarments.

Jennifer Prokop 23:05 / #
Sure, sure. Anyway, Ana is wearing this beautiful lingerie, and then she puts on a dress and I was like, wait, you just took all that stuff off!

Sarah MacLean 23:15 / #
A silk dress. I mean the argument--did she take it off?

Jennifer Prokop 23:20 / #
She couldn't have been... literally the straps would have shown.

Sarah MacLean 23:22 / #
Here's my thing about that lingerie. She's all very put together. But she's wearing her garter belts over her undies, which is, I mean, how it looks really perfect. But the reality is, is that if you wear your garter belts over your undies, anytime you have to pee, have sex or have ben wa balls inserted into you. This is important. This is a PSA you guys. You have to undress yourself! I mean, clearly the fantasy is held during the 50 Shades film.

Jennifer Prokop 23:58 / #
Sorry, my seventeen year old just appeared at a real awkward time, but he couldn't hear what you were talking about.

Sarah MacLean 24:04 / #
"Hi!". I'm really glad he couldn't hear what I was talking about. "Hi, Little Romance!"

Little Romance 24:07 / #
I don't know what's happening. So I'm gonna leave now.

Jennifer Prokop 24:09 / #
Okay, bye.

Sarah MacLean 24:09 / #
"Okay, bye". Look at you. He brought you breakfast.

Jennifer Prokop 24:15 / #
Yeah, Mr. ReadsRomance went to Dunkin donuts.

Sarah MacLean 24:18 / #
Oh, I love a Dunkin'.

Jennifer Prokop 24:20 / #
Me too. Can we talk about masquerades? The promise of the premise. That's what we're going to do right now.

Sarah MacLean 24:25 / #
All right. So the promise of the premise of the masquerade. One is, they don't know who the other is. So this is early days in the book, right? Like, if it's in the first couple of chapters, then it has to be sort of like a mystery of who this person is. Although, I mean, I don't know. I'm thinking. So, wait. Are we talking masquerades themselves or the mask itself? Because I think about that, um, delicious Elizabeth Hoyt book. Did you read all those Elizabeth Hoyt books? The Prince books?

Jennifer Prokop 24:59 / #
I think so.

Sarah MacLean 25:00 / #
Tiger Prince, Raven Prince, Serpent Prince. The Raven Prince is the one where he goes to the sex club. And she meets him there. He's going as like a client and she goes and is wearing a mask and she is the sex worker. And she's masked -- but that's another example of she thinks he doesn't know who she is -- And he of course knows right away. Of course. FYI guys we had no intention. We were just going to get it. We just decided we were going to freewheel today. So here we are.

Jennifer Prokop 25:42 / #
Well, we started off with my RBG Halloween costume and we're back to costume. So I feel like it's all a closed circut. Okay, here's my question about masquerades. Do you think this is a historical only trope?

Sarah MacLean 25:56 / #
Well, I mean, it's in 50 Shades, which arguably is...

Jennifer Prokop 25:59 / #
Yeah, but I was like, but other than 50 Shades.

Sarah MacLean 26:01 / #
100 million copies. Were we not clear enough.

Jennifer Prokop 26:05 / #
Right? But they go together.

Sarah MacLean 26:07 / #
Right, because Christian Grey is so an old fashioned, right? He's basically like... What's his name? Rochester. PS Christian Grey would absolutely keep his old wife in the attic.

Jennifer Prokop 26:20 / #
Um, hello? Yes.

Sarah MacLean 26:22 / #
1,000%

Jennifer Prokop 26:23 / #
Like in the book the whole part with like Leila, or no, the movie.

Sarah MacLean 26:28 / #
Yeah, the second book is like some serious Jane Eyre fanfic.

Jennifer Prokop 26:32 / #
For sure.

Sarah MacLean 26:33 / #
It's, you know, a big problem. Adriana...

Jennifer Prokop 26:37 / #
She about had a heart attack. She was like, "Wait, what?" Go back and watch that flip again. Skip over this.

Sarah MacLean 26:45 / #
We should publish the chats. We could make a fortune. Okay, the contemporary masquerades. I mean, there have got to be--It's such a classic trope. Right? Right. This is why we don't usually like truly prepare, but we usually say, oh, we're gonna do an episode on masquerades and then we at least think about it. Yeah, they have to. Everybody at home is like screaming titles at us right now. You know that, right?

Jennifer Prokop 27:16 / #
I do. That's fine. I feel like in some ways, the Naima Simone blackout ones function similarly.

Sarah MacLean 27:26 / #
Like galas, like balls, right. Like, that sort of feel. I mean, I just wrote... the "Naughty Brits" anthology and its connected by a gala, which I think gives it a real romancey feel... that anthology. I mean, I love an anthology. We're going to take a little detour. But I love an anthology that links together. We've talked about this on the podcast, like, I much prefer an anthology where, you know, either some kind of trope, or there's a similar thing, or like all of them interconnect. "Naughty Brits", all of the all of the episodes, all of the stories interconnect at a gala at the British Museum, but it's not a mask.

Jennifer Prokop 28:09 / #
So in a masquerade, it's the whole like, we're strangers to each other, but of course, he recognizes her. But in a modern one. I feel like it's the gala. And it has like that pretty woman effect of the the glow up?

Sarah MacLean 28:27 / #
Yeah, it's like a Cinderella story. You mean? Yeah, I think that's probably reasonable.

Jennifer Prokop 28:36 / #
And not just for women. I think for men, too, right. Like, Oh, my God, look at you and your three piece suit.

Sarah MacLean 28:42 / #
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. You know, I can't think short of 50 Shades. I can't really think of like a, a masquerade, romance, a contemporary masquerade romance. And I think that that's, I think that's probably... Oh, you know, who does it? It's not a masquerade though. So in Nikki Sloane's sex club books, the heroines are always the the walkers are always masked. So there's like a sense of

Jennifer Prokop 29:21 / #
They're blindfolded.

Sarah MacLean 29:23 / #
Oh, their blindfolded. So it's not masks. That's a different thing. I mean, the whole series is called, "The Blindfold Club". So as it is, well, I wonder why. I mean, I guess is it because it's too much fantasy? Because historicals allow, like, here's the thing about historicals is a mask on unlocks the characters right? Like, so where in a historical you're always writing this really fine line between what is allowed, like what we'll get like ruination is always on the table in a historical, I mean, maybe not always, but like 90% of historicals. Ruination is one of the like, the fears, right? This idea because we've talked 1000 times about like patriarchy and what historicals are doing around patriarchy. And the truth is ruination is fucking nonsense is what it is, right? And like, it's about women and sexuality and perception and the way society tries to keep women from pleasure. And it's all those things. And so ruination as a threat is just like always a low level kind of bubbling threat. So masks give us an opportunity. I mean, how many times have I said, I love an identity. What I love about romance is identity, always. And so masks like, there's the one piece which is playing with identity. But there's also that second piece that frees women from the binds and constraints of propriety, because if she's wearing a mask, no one knows who she is. So if she's, like, slutty in the garden.

Jennifer Prokop 31:05 / #
It doesn't matter.

Sarah MacLean 31:06 / #
Yeah. So it's a shorthand for sexual freedom. But also, but without removing patriarchy, right. So because once the mask comes off, like everything goes to shit.

Jennifer Prokop 31:20 / #
So I wonder if that's why it doesn't need to function the same way in a contemporary.

Sarah MacLean 31:24 / #
Because if women just have sex, and it's fine, right? I mean, I was doing. Yeah, so maybe it just doesn't have purpose.

Jennifer Prokop 31:34 / #
I think it's different, right. So in like I said,

Sarah MacLean 31:36 / #
I do love that moment, where he's like, where everyone's like, "Who's that?" And he's "That's my goddess".

Jennifer Prokop 31:45 / #
Right? Well, cuz he's the only one who knows her. He's literally bringing into our world she's never seen before. Right? And I do think that that's how galas often function because we have so many billionaire/millionaire heroes or whatever, right? And so often the woman's appearance into this world... It's not really about patriarchy, as much as it is about class.

Sarah MacLean 32:09 / #
Yes. In contemporaries. Yeah. It's usually it's either it's fish out of water, it's an awareness of like, a whole world that we haven't, that she has not had access to until now.

Jennifer Prokop 32:23 / #
Well, and I think so I think also the payoff is really different and or he? Yeah, sure. I'm thinking okay, so you and I both love Charlotte Stein. Right. And one of my favorite Charlotte Stein's -- and I'm gonna have to look because of course, god knows what the hell are, you know, are titles -- So hold on, while I look at this title, there's one I love, one of my favorites. And like, I feel like no one ever talks about it. But it is like absolutely one of my favorites. And I don't remember the title hold on its "Run to You" is the name of the book. And it starts off with a woman who she her roommate, she figures out essentially is doing these, like assignation she calls them. So she shows up in this hotel room, she doesn't really know what's going to happen. And it turns out that it's like, kind of like, this man's gonna be there. Right. And at the end, though, she falls in love with him. His name's Yanos like, I don't scand, I don't remember where he from. And at the end, though, he takes her he like takes her to the spa, and she gets the full treatment and she wears this whole gown. And he takes her to this ball and she thinks he's trying to change her. And she actually like sort of, she can't deal with it. She's like, I wanted him to want me for me. I didn't want him to like, make me over. And I thought it was a really clever play on the glow up right like instead of the Pretty Woman moment being like, yes, look, you can fit in anywhere. Is her saying I actually just wanted to I wanted you to love me for me. I didn't want you to have to make me something I'm not in order to fit in with your world. Of course it was all a misunderstanding. It was fine, but

Sarah MacLean 34:13 / #
Fine.

Jennifer Prokop 34:14 / #
I did really like so I do. I think the gala and the ball is just different in a, in a modern romance. I think it has different stakes.

Sarah MacLean 34:22 / #
I think also that I do think you're right that I think that it's it's often about money. I think about that scene. In the Sylvia Day series helped me Help me the "Crossfire".

Jennifer Prokop 34:37 / #
"Crossfire". I was like the to you series.

Sarah MacLean 34:39 / #
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So there's, there's that great scene, which is there's a scene in that series that's also at a gala or like a fundraiser, and they are sitting together and she is an and the dynamic is very much like he's a billionaire. She's not, She's like a young ingenue. And the they are having the moment at the table where there is a lot of like there's it's clear that like she is left out of the conversation or being manipulated in the conversation because she is not their kind, right? Like she's not their people. And it's a very class focused moment. And she uses her safe word at the table.

Jennifer Prokop 35:30 / #
Oh, wow, that's intense.

Sarah MacLean 35:31 / #
Have you read that book.

Jennifer Prokop 35:33 / #
I think I read the first one.

Sarah MacLean 35:34 / #
I don't know if it's the first one or the second one, somebody will tell us. But she's safe words him at the table during the conversation. And he instantly stops like, on a dime. And that and it's like, an incredible moment of like, power. And like this conversation around identity and power and, yeah, and how sex is more than just what happens between two people in private. Like, Yes, there is. It is a magnificent scene because of the way it balances power. And I think you're right, I think, you know, I think about um, you know, there are so in Lisa Kleypas in her contemporaries, and this is unsurprising, right? Like, Lisa is a historical Queen, right? Well, arguably the best of us in history. And so like when she right went, but when she came to her contemporaries, there were a lot of these like kind of Texan balls that happened, and like gave opportunities to have these conversations. What is interesting about this for me, though, is that it is so completely fantastical for most of us, like I always do every year, I make the same New Year's joke, right, which is I've been living in New York City for 20 years, and no one has ever invited me to a "When Harry Met Sally" style New Year's Eve party, like I have never been invited to have, you know, Eric run in the rain and say,

Movie Dialogue 37:12 / #
"I love that you get cold when it's 71 degrees. I love that it takes you an hour and a half to order a sandwich. I love that you get a little crinkle above your nose when you're looking at me like I'm nuts. I love that after I spend the day with you, I can still smell your perfume on my clothes. And I love that you are the last person I want to talk to before I go to sleep at night."

Sarah MacLean 37:32 / #
I think that fantasy of it's really old fashion, there's like a comfort to it. There is Yeah, because readers, we sort of know what happens at a ball. Like we know that ball is where like gentle courtship, there's something soft about it, even when it's not soft.

Jennifer Prokop 37:49 / #
Well, I also think it's really embedded in like the Cinderella trope, which is so I think it's like impossible to get away from and I think, you know, like going off to the ball and the fairy godmother and then you know, being recognized for who you are, even though no one else can see that. I mean, that's a really powerfully built into, like our society. But I mean, there are Cinderella stories from all over the world right there. This is a story that humanity loves, not just Americans. I think it's also a very visual trope. Yeah. And what I mean by that is, I don't know you guys look at the mirror every morning and I'm like, whatever. You know, like, I mean, same. Like the ugly duckling turning into a swan like that's, I love that. Yeah.

Sarah MacLean 38:46 / #
You know, have you read Theodora Taylor, we read her books.

Jennifer Prokop 38:51 / #
One but I it was a I don't remember though. It was there was not a ball.

Sarah MacLean 38:56 / #
So first of all, these were recommended to me by Kenya Gauri Bell, who is amazing, um, who is like the most wonderful person. Yeah, possibly in romance. She's just a delight. Um, so Kenya and I were in Alabama together immediately before COVID like we did an event in in Alabama, and I did an event with Naima Simone and Kenya was there and we all went out and hung out and talked about romance novels. As you know, you do when you hang out with me. Um, and she recommended this book called Holt, which is written by Theodora Taylor, who in it's like, the series title is like ruthless billionaires or something. And it begins with the heroine turning up at like a skyscraper for a party like very interestingly, like very Naima. Yeah, like this kind of there is this like big party that's happening and she has like, no money at all to her name, and she gets to this party. And it's like, you know, our writhing mass of like people partying. And there is one man who like is above it all, and it's happening at his home. But he's like, kind of bored by it. And I think that's a piece of it, too. Like, this idea that like,

Jennifer Prokop 40:27 / #
I love that. I love it when they're bored of it.

Sarah MacLean 40:29 / #
The hero can have anything in the world, like he can literally it's going back to that it's it harkens back to that Nicki Sloane book that I love so much, right? Where he's like, I'm literally in that book, above it all, looking down, and he can point to the person he wants and say that person, and there are all these remarkable people in the room. But he chooses you. And he chooses you. This is the value of the mask, right? Like he chooses you with, or without the mask. Um, because he can see he can see you he can see all sides of you. So like, it's, it's a really like, and it is like it's exactly what it sounds like. It's like super alpha guy, like, you know, if this is your kink, this book will really work for you. Um, so, you know, but I think about, Oh God, who's that other woman who I love Jean O'Reilly. Is that her name? Have you read Jane O'Reilly ever?

Jennifer Prokop 41:42 / #
It's not Jane O'Reilly. It's,

Sarah MacLean 41:44 / #
You're thinking of Kathleen O'Reilly.

Jennifer Prokop 41:46 / #
I'm thinking Kathleen O'Reilly okay.

Sarah MacLean 41:47 / #
No, I'm not talking about that. I like Kathleen O'Reilly too. And when we do our bartender episode, yes. Okay, as everyone knows that, that's what I'm looking for right now. Um, we will talk about Kathleen O'Reilly because I do love those New York City bartender episodes, but no, hang on. I'm gonna look. Jane O'Reilly. It's true. She's English. And she wrote a book called.

Jennifer Prokop 42:13 / #
Oh, I've read that.

Sarah MacLean 42:15 / #
Yeah, it's not I mean, I recommend I don't think I've ever recommended on the podcast. This actually just became like, just a big, let's just talk about books. We like, fine episode, whatever, who cares?

Jennifer Prokop 42:25 / #
Um, this podcast is free. Everybody so.

Sarah MacLean 42:31 / #
Sorry. Um, so she wrote a book called The pressure plates principle, which is a novella. And it's like, part of again, like part of a series of novellas. But this is a similar thing where the heroine, Oh, God, I love it insecure and insecure about sex heroin, like, the heroin has some some bad I know, I understand that some of my things are deeply problematic, but like, I don't know, it's 2020 leave me alone. So but I love it when like so she said the heroine is coming off like this very bad relationship, where when she broke up with this guy who was terrible to her, he was basically like, you are terrible in bed. Like you suck at sex. And so she's like super insecure about sex. She's in like PR works for some PR company in England is set in England. It's contemporary. I think Jane O'Reilly is English. And the her like, outrageously sexy boss. Hosts these like bacchanals.

Jennifer Prokop 43:35 / #
Great. Great.

Sarah MacLean 43:40 / #
So she turns up at one of them and here we are bored hero. Tired of supermodels.

Jennifer Prokop 43:51 / #
I cannot get enough of that bullshit. I really cannot. It's a great.

Sarah MacLean 43:55 / #
And he's and she asks him for sex lessons. Like she's basically like, I'm bad at sex. And he's like, I feel confident that that is not the case. Never and then he's like, but yes, I will give you sex lessons. So it's like educational kissing, which is another trope we love and should do an episode about but like, again, like this sort of bored. I don't know. Why are we doing this today? I don't know. Why isn't this it's

Jennifer Prokop 44:22 / #
Where we are. Sarah, where we are.

Sarah MacLean 44:25 / #
You know why? Because I'm an insecure heroine right now. I'm like, I don't know. I want a bored. I want a bored person to just be like,

Jennifer Prokop 44:34 / #
Fix this. Like, yeah

Sarah MacLean 44:35 / #
I will teach you about sex. And also I see you and it's all gonna be okay.

Jennifer Prokop 44:41 / #
So, you know, this is a perfect opportunity to mention our favorite Derek Craven, who does not recognize Sarah when she comes to the masquerade.

Sarah MacLean 44:49 / #
No, dummy

Jennifer Prokop 44:52 / #
His factotum does danger you dummy. You know why? Cuz They think we just want the world to be different right now. I think it's perfect. I'm always looking for a way to make the metaphor work everybody sorry,

Sarah MacLean 45:06 / #
Shout out to every person who is selling witch romance is right now. Because there are which romance is like every two days. So for those of you who are not in publishing, there's this email list that you can get on you have to pay for it, but, and I, and it's called publishers lunch, and you get a email every day about the deals like the new publishing deals that are coming out. And for the last like, three months, it's just been like, witch series, after witch series, after witch series in romance and like, I am here for it. Oh, like, in a huge way, because I just feel like I don't, I don't want real life like I don't. I want to read historicals. I want to read paranormals. I want to read things where like, power. I want to read about power. Yes. I want to read about power, but I want to read about power.

Music Lyric 45:55 / #
I can break you will, I can make you kneel. I can force you to crawl and to lick my heels. Cause the power is mine. Power is mine.

Sarah MacLean 46:03 / #
Like where like men has to be like, broken down. Yeah. And I want that, because I want power redistribution in the world.

Jennifer Prokop 46:16 / #
Yeah, me too.

Sarah MacLean 46:19 / #
You know, RBG has that famous quote about like, people always ask her like, when will When will the supreme she be happy with the the way the Supreme Court is broken up? And she says when you're alive? Because there have been nine men on the court for so long. And nobody's ever questioned that. And it just feels like, that's how it should be.

Jennifer Prokop 46:40 / #
Maybe it's naviete, maybe it's just like the access we have to the world. But I've never thought the world was fair. But the way in which is so blatantly unfair now. Right. And the that feels, aggressive.

Sarah MacLean 47:00 / #
The other book I was thinking about this morning, and, you know, was night and Nalini Singh's "Slave to Sensation", which we've never talked about, because we spent so much time in the first season talking about paranormals that I write, like, we write, just have sort of, we've never talked at length about other paranormals. And we should, you know, probably rectify that this season. But like, the premise of slave to sensation, the heroine has emotions, right? And like, the universe that Nalini has created in that, in that book, is a universe where emotions are, are devalued. Like they like it's a weakness, um, which, I mean, it's like, it just feels like, that's real patriarchy. Right? And, yeah, but the hero actually, like, feeds on them, like he can. He gets sustenance from emotions. And so she's, you know, there, she's in hiding. And there's this real sense of, like, power just being so codified in that relationship, and how, how emotion how, like, emotions in women, and like, things that are considered to be softer and weaker, are actually incredible power. And I feel like that's where we are, you know, it's like that. It's that Rebecca Tracer books, you know, like, "Good and Mad", "Good and Mad". And, Mona Eltahaway's "The Seven Necessary Sins of Women and Girls", and it just feels like, anger is all we have now. Yeah. And I, I mean, I think they're, weirdly, we just talked about a bunch of romance novels that are not about women's anger, like they are about, you know, I don't know, sex deals and masquerades. But, but also, I think, like, maybe maybe they aren't, are about about maybe that's part of it, too, like that mask as like, we're all wearing masks all the time. And maybe it's time for us all to take them off and like show the world that we're furious.

Jennifer Prokop 49:09 / #
Like my fury, in my mid 40s is not as threatening, you know, I'm a white lady like, right? Like, I mean, I'm a school teacher. I mean, I just feel like the whole thing too, about like, who gets to be mad. Right, and how that madness is how your anger is perceived as threatening or not. I mean, it's also Rosh Hashanah. So Happy New Year to all of our listeners. And my friend Julie mentioned that she went to services last night, like on zoom or whatever, and that her Rabbi said, "despair is not a strategy". And I was like, that's really good for me to remember. Because it's like people, like people have fought to make the world better for a really long time.

Sarah MacLean 50:01 / #
Yep. So what do we do, Jen? What is a strategy? Call your senators? Yes. Even if you live in blue states, Jen and I live in blue states, I have two blue senators, they have both said like, but I mean, my senators are in line, but like, call your senators make sure they know that you are expecting them to fight with every fiber of their being, even if even though it feels like that is, I mean, we are despairing. If you live in a swing state in a place that has either one blue and one red senator or in a state where your senator, your red senator is up for reelection? Mm hmm. Call your senators. Um, you know, I think this is especially true in places like Maine, where like Susan Collins might win her seat back if she steps up here. So call your senators.

Jennifer Prokop 50:57 / #
If I think act blue reported last night that it was making money hand over fist for swing states and for campaigns, I think Arizona is going to be really important because the reelection there because essentially that Senator, whoever wins is going to get seated faster because of the way like that election is working. I can't remember the details like whatever.

Sarah MacLean 51:26 / #
Jon Favreau, who used worked for Barack Obama, a speechwriter runs on a PAC. I mean, I don't know if we call it a PAC. But it's a it's a fund. And it's called "Get Mitch or Die Trying". And we will put links to it in show notes. That is the pack that raised something like $10 million in three hours last night, because democrats are mad, people are fired up. So call your senators, also do what you can if you don't have money, because a lot of us don't, because it's real hard out here. And we are like, there's also a pandemic on and we understand the burden that that has caused on a lot of families. You can text bank, you can phone bank. Last night, I tried to get addresses from postcards to voters, and there was only one campaign that had addresses still. So I think a lot of people are doing now. So sign up, sign up, sign up for all that stuff. I actually have a text bank training this afternoon at two o'clock for Wisconsin. But you can sign up in individual states if you want to. If you are planning to vote by mail, vote early so that your vote is already counted. By the time the election comes.

Jennifer Prokop 52:42 / #
Well, Virginia had early voting start to speak and they've never seen lines like that. So I have to assume that voters are really motivated and we just need to stay that way like now is, now is the time right if you've been like saving your energy for the final stretch like it's the sprint now it's not a marathon any more.

Sarah MacLean 53:03 / #
Well, here Look, this is the possible gold, gold's lining silver line gold at what, what color is silver lining?

Jennifer Prokop 53:10 / #
So like Anna's dress up at the ball.

Sarah MacLean 53:14 / #
The lining is silver. But the silver, the possible silver lining here is look, we all know that Joe Biden is like, not the most exciting like a lot of us were hoping for someone else. But here we are. And Ginsburg, we have to like honor her legacy here. And like get fired up for the court, get fired up for the Senate, get fired up for the future. We are really, in get fired up for the those families on the border, and for black families across America and for women across America and Trans people across America. And stay try and do what you can to stay fired up for the next 40 whatever days. We are going to be here with you every step of the way. We are going to try and stay fired up we are going to try and keep let's try and keep each other fired up. Take care of yourselves and remember self care but you know also we got to push through.

Jennifer Prokop 54:20 / #
Yeah, the thing it was really funny and people the things that you find solace in besides reading romance like, Eric last night was like there's more of us than there are of them. That's why they need to cheat.

Sarah MacLean 54:32 / #
By the millions there are really literal millions more of us than there are of them.

Jennifer Prokop 54:36 / #
Yeah. And that is really important for me to remember I feel like one of the down, I mean social media is like so amazing my life in a lot of ways. I found all of you through social media but

Sarah MacLean 54:47 / #
I mean Tom Hardy as Sarah MacLean covers.

Jennifer Prokop 54:50 / #
Right it's really hard sometimes to not focus on the all the like those bad stories that bubble up but you know, most of us are out here like trying to do the right thing wearing our masks, we want to vote, we want to help the election. We want to like restore, we can have democracy, we want people to have their civil rights. And I just feel like that helps me. It helps me to remember that.

Sarah MacLean 55:13 / #
It's hard out here. But it is it is easier for us than it has been in the past for a lot of people. You know, I hold tight, I hold tight to President Obama saying like, it is better now than it was, like it is always better. And you know, watching the DNC it's clear, the President Obama is real mad. Yeah. And I'm glad for it. It's right. Um, but there is, but that's where we are.

Jennifer Prokop 55:44 / #
Yeah, I think one last thing I guess I want to say is like, cling to your personal happiness, wherever you find that. One thing that we say all the time in romance is that like, the past didn't need to be perfect that people found personal happiness, even in times of great struggle. That's like the cornerstone of the whole thing. But I feel like one of the things that we see all the time, right is when you know, people, you know, some of our fellow white ladies will say things like, well, how could so and so be happy back then. And I just feel like this is why you have to cling to your personal happiness now, right? Whatever it is in this world right now that is bringing you joy. That is a positive net effect good thing, and none of us should feel bad about those things, whatever they are, right. Like my friend, Ernie and his husband have their new baby this week. And he had a baby and the baby next were remote controlled for like scale. And I was like the baby so tiny. Joy, it's joy to joy.

Sarah MacLean 56:50 / #
Yeah, it is joy. And also you guys like, don't let Twitter get you down. If like, if you're happy about the James Bond casting, or the Juergen Klopp thread, or the video that Rex Chapman is that his name Rex Chapman, it posted today of like, whatever adorable animal thing. Like, you're allowed. You're allowed. We have to suck the joy out of out of everything. Right? To be able to power to keep going the fight. And it's, you know, I feel like there's that. Did you ever watch the Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt that show?

Jennifer Prokop 57:34 / #
I'm a bad watcher Sarah?

Sarah MacLean 57:35 / #
I know you don't watch TV. Um, but anyway, so there's there is this comedy that was on for a little while. And it was, you know, kind of adorable. And she had this thing where she was like, you can do anything for 10 seconds, right? Like, I feel like we can do anything for 45 days. Yeah. And we'll tackle it on November 4.

Jennifer Prokop 57:56 / #
Yep. We will.

Sarah MacLean 57:58 / #
We'll have an episode on November 4. We will. That's what we can promise you. It will be here November 4. Yep. After that. Who knows? Cuz, Jen, Jen exhausts me. Um, all right. We love you guys.

Jennifer Prokop 58:16 / #
Be strong.

Sarah MacLean 58:17 / #
And yeah, we're here where we're thinking of you. We're really grateful for you. How about that? We you are keeping, you are keeping us going?

Jennifer Prokop 58:26 / #
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's the thing. Again, I say it a lot like romance was such a solitary thing I loved and now it doesn't have to be and it is really amazing that that's how my world is now.

Sarah MacLean 58:43 / #
Yep. All right. This is Fated Mates. And what else you can find us at Fatedmates.net. There you can find all sorts of information about merch and transcripts and a link to the Spotify playlist of all the music that gets played during these episodes. We are produced by Eric Mortensen. Next week, we are reading Alicia Ries "Serving Pleaure", which is a book that gives both of us a whole lot of joy. Yes. And we hope it will give you a lot of joy to it is real sexy, and a great fun read for this week. So get on that.

Jennifer Prokop 59:30 / #
And we were all over the place. So tell us where you are. That's all.

Sarah MacLean 59:37 / #
I mean, this is the second week in a row we were all over the place. You understand that? Yeah. Adriana on Twitter, but Adriana texted us a GIF of the way she imagined our brains working during the "Heart of Blood and Ashes", episode. And it was not wrong. And we're kind of sorry.

Jennifer Prokop 59:58 / #
I'm not sorry about any of it.

Sarah MacLean 1:00:01 / #
You know, feels like in season three, we should be better at this.

Jennifer Prokop 1:00:05 / #
Times are rough though, Sarah, I feel like you know, I? Well, one of the things I say at school a lot, is I'm always asking this question, right, which is like, what is really, I'm an English teacher right? So, it's like what is the most important thing right now is like how do I get kids engaging and reading and writing? Like everything else falls away? Like what is the core of your discipline? And I feel like, you know, the core of our discipline in this podcast is that we just fucking love these books so goddamn much that our brains are like, just neurons firing all the time.

Sarah MacLean 1:00:39 / #
I mean, to be honest, I think that you all kind of love these books, too. So yeah, I mean, they wouldn't still listen, we know they're listening. I can see the data.

Jennifer Prokop 1:00:48 / #
I know you do love data. You do love data.

Sarah MacLean 1:00:50 / #
I must suck.

Jennifer Prokop 1:00:51 / #
Eric. Eric sends us the data every week. And I just say things like, wow.

Sarah MacLean 1:00:59 / #
And I'm like, can you explain this curve? Yeah. So anyway, you guys we love you. Stay strong, as Elizabeth Warren would say "Fight Only Righteous Fights".

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S02 - Interstitials, interstitial, full-length episode, guest host, romance recommendations Jennifer Prokop S02 - Interstitials, interstitial, full-length episode, guest host, romance recommendations Jennifer Prokop

S02.06: Cinnamon Roll Heroes with Andie Christopher

We heard you! You wanted to talk about Cinnamon Roll Heroes, so here we are, and we’re bringing in an expert on the topic (in real life and in fiction) — Andie Christopher. We’re talking about the evolution and popularization of the beta in the 90s, why they became such a powerful force then, why they’re back now, and why they work so well for some readers! We’ll also talk about dating in 2019, recommend some books (obviously), and talk about Andie’s upcoming, Not the Girl You Marry, which is out November 12!

Transcript Available

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Next week, we’re going back to paranormal with the first book in JR Ward’s Black Dagger Brotherhood series, Dark Lover. It’s a whole ride. Strap in. Get it at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo or your local indie (it’s currently only $2.99 in ebook!).

Show Notes

TRANSCRIPT

Sarah MacLean 0:00 / #
Okay, so we're just popping this in at the beginning of the cinnamon / # roll interstitial with Andie Christopher, give us a couple minutes, you guys Andie's on her way. But we have a plan and we're very excited about it.

Jennifer Prokop 0:13 / #
It's really exciting. Sarah made me try it. So we know it works.

Sarah MacLean 0:18 / #
It's true. So we have set up a voicemail box for you guys.For old school level, like you can basically page

Jennifer Prokop 0:30 / #
Oh my god, it's like A Tribe Called Quest song.

A Tribe Called Quest 0:33 / #
Enter your Telephone number or other numeric message.

Sarah MacLean 0:43 / #
So we're going to give you a telephone number, a United States telephone number for international listeners. And you're going to get to call and it's going to go right to voicemail. And you will hear my voice asking you to tell us about the book that blooded you, Jen, what do we want them to tell us?

Jennifer Prokop 1:03 / #
Okay, so I think here's the important thing. We are hopefully going to actually play these audio clips on future podcasts. Yeah,

Sarah MacLean 1:11 / #
you're by giving us voicemail, by leaving us a voicemail you are consenting to us putting it on the podcast.

Jennifer Prokop 1:18 / #
Yeah. So I think it's really important that you probably should just say you're like your first name. You don't have to give us your full name, address please or phone number. Please don't do that.

Sarah MacLean 1:26 / #
Please don't.

Jennifer Prokop 1:27 / #
None of us would like any of your data we we want you to be pleasantly anonymous. Anyway. So you're going to tell us your name. If you would like to-- where you live. That's kind of fun when you started reading romance, some small biographical details, I think to get the flavor. And then I want you to tell us the book and it's really great if its title and author.

Sarah MacLean 1:49 / #
Yes, please. And tell us why.

Jennifer Prokop 1:51 / #
Yeah, like Sarah story where she read Gentle Rogue her desk, right? I think what we're looking for is not like your review of the book, but your memory of the reading of it. right?

Sarah MacLean 2:02 / #
We're interested in like the prime on this of this book. Why this is the book that brought you to romance and kept you here? Um, so that is the story. That is what we're doing. The telephone number is [redacted]. And we are not putting this-- you have to write it down, you guys. We're not putting on the internet because the last thing I need is like cranky readers leaving me voicemail about my books. Don't leave me voicemail about my books.

Jennifer Prokop 2:41 / #
You know what I'll say? Yeah, it's if it's, if it's anything other than like, kind of what we described, we'll probably just delete it. And you know, we're not trying to be mean, but this isn't, you know, there's lots of ways to talk to us on Twitter or whatever. This is really specifically the books to blooded us hotline.

Sarah MacLean 3:01 / #
Okay, we're gonna give you the telephone number during episodes too, but like I said, we're not gonna put it in show notes. We're not gonna tweet it. It's really it's just between all us all US friends.Yeah, you know, 10,000 closest friends. So if you leave us-- pegging crew! Don't leave us messages about pegging.

Jennifer Prokop 3:32 / #
Oh my god. I'm excited about all of it.

Sarah MacLean 3:36 / #
I'm really excited to I can't wait. Tell us about the books that you love-- from the past from the present. Call multiple times. Tell us about multiple books.

Jennifer Prokop 3:48 / #
Sure. And you know, we're not sure exactly how we're how we're going to use this yet. So you know, we don't know exactly how it'll work. So it could be that we get inundated with calls and keep it up for a week or two and take it down. It could be something that goes on for a long time. So no promises anybody, maybe we don't, but we just think it'll be really fun to hear. Yes,

Sarah MacLean 4:09 / #
this could be a very big mistake to we haven't talked, but

Jennifer Prokop 4:13 / #
I don't think it'll be a mistake. I'm just worried it's too much. Like we won't be able to get everybody on right. I mean, you know, you guys seem cool though. I think

Sarah MacLean 4:21 / #
I think we're all gonna we're all grown ups. We're all going to be able to, you know, hold hold firm. I'm very excited that I'm making you all do something old fashioned, like pick up the phone and leave us a voicemail like a a civilized human being.

Jennifer Prokop 4:38 / #
No dick pics.

Sarah MacLean 4:41 / #
Note Yeah, impossible to leave us a dick pic.

Sarah MacLean 4:45 / #
Okay, And we can't wait to hear your voices in our ear holes.

Jennifer Prokop 4:55 / #
Yes, that's right.

Sarah MacLean 4:57 / #
Stay tuned for Andie Christopher and cinnamon / # rolls.

Sarah MacLean 5:02 / #
Well, we made a lot of people mad.

Jennifer Prokop 5:06 / #
They haven't even heard the Derek Craven episode yet, so I don't even know what the hell's going on Sarah

Sarah MacLean 5:13 / #
Well, welcome to Fated Mates everyone it is a beta cinnamon / # roll soft hero week. It's a little late Great British Bake Off.

Jennifer Prokop 5:26 / #
We actually just got an amazing-- someone tweeted us right now and was like, Is there a book where it's essentially set during the Great British Bake Off? Only I don't watch that show. And so it said #GBBO, and I didn't know what it was and I go look it up. So I'm like the wrong person to ask I guess.

Sarah MacLean 5:45 / #
I am the exact right person to ask about that. I don't know about a baking one. But Louisa Edwards did a like Top Chef style romance series which we will play in show notes. More importantly, we should introduce our guest.

Andie Christopher 6:02 / #
Hi.

Sarah MacLean 6:05 / #
Before we're too far down the rabbit hole. Welcome, Andie Christopher.

Andie Christopher 6:11 / #
Hi,

Sarah MacLean 6:12 / #
we are so excited to have you. I can't believe it's taken us until season two.

Andie Christopher 6:17 / #
It's it's taken a long time, but we did record that one episode that Just didn't make it.

Sarah MacLean 6:24 / #
It's actually not that it didn't make it. It's that someone was terrible at recording themselves.

Jennifer Prokop 6:31 / #
Wait, you have no idea everybody Sarah, I'm about to tell you a story you don't even know only Andie and I know-- which is I fucked up the recording the first time it was the three of us and actually accidentally had this master reverb thing on, which was essentially it made me sound like I was in a soccer stadium. And then-- here's what you don't know. I also recorded an interview with Andie because I interviewed her for Kirkus earlier this summer, and at literally 10 minutes before our scheduled phone call. My child-- who we were in Dallas for his volleyball tournament-- played volleyball day then ate a bunch of stuff and then literally barfed all over the hotel room. And I had to clean it all up, and then call and Andie and be like, "Hi, sorry. Thank God you're not in this room with me because it's disgusting." So I'm going to go with Third time's a charm.

Andie Christopher 7:22 / #
I hope so. I hope so.

Jennifer Prokop 7:24 / #
Nobody's gonna barf right now. And I'm not in a soccer stadium.

Sarah MacLean 7:29 / #
I'm really glad and also it's a good day, you guys. It's a really good day, because Nancy Pelosi finally got her shit together and was like, let's impeach the motherfucker.

Jennifer Prokop 7:45 / #
I mean, Yes. I need her to be hard as nails right now.

Andie Christopher 7:50 / #
She was bringing the Big Mom energy during that, during that press conference. She was bringing the "I told you once I told you twice. This is the third time and now we're done."

Sarah MacLean 8:05 / #
You don't get to go to prom. Yeah, if only we actually were prom. And, uh, but basically, what better thing for us to do tonight than to talk about soft, good, sweet heroes who make us happy to be in the world.

Jennifer Prokop 8:27 / #
So true.

Sarah MacLean 8:29 / #
So to a few weeks ago, we released our alpha episode. It was the first interstitial of season two because we decided it was time for us to come, we were going to come hard for all of you with season two. And Jen and I put our stakes in the ground on alphas. And we had, I think, a really thoughtful conversation about alphas and why they exist. And a lot of people on Twitter and in other places asked us a lot of really great questions about: why alphas? and Why not betas? and why not cinnamon / # rolls? And first of all, I just want to repeat something that I feel like we said a bunch on on that alpha episode but clearly needs repeating, and that is that at no point did Jen and I say that romance novels can't exist without alphas. And at no point did Jen and I say that alphas and betas are the only descriptors of heroes. In fact, I think at multiple points we said, this is sort of a dumb way of articulating heroes because they should be more right than one thing. They should have nuance.

Jennifer Prokop 9:43 / #
I don't even know if we said that. I mean, I feel bad. We say it to each other all the time. But on that particular note,

Sarah MacLean 9:48 / #
we definitely did. I went back and checked. I said like good writing requires the hero to be nuance,

Jennifer Prokop 9:54 / #
yeah. characters to be nuanced.

Sarah MacLean 9:57 / #
Exactly. So but what's really the reason why we're here So Jen and I had already started talking about Okay, we're going to have to do, we're going to do a second episode, and we're going to do an episode that'll be about kind of the softer hero. And I don't know, I'm really glad Andie's with us because I think one of the really valuable things for us to talk about, maybe at the very beginning of this, is what makes a cinnamon / # roll versus a beta. I'm not sure I understand all the terms. So can we do that first and really sort of establish what we're talking about? And then I want to talk a little bit about history. And then I want Andie to talk about her brilliant thoughts on why cinnamon / # rolls are working now in a way that maybe they weren't a year, a decade ago or five years ago.

Jennifer Prokop 10:44 / #
So I feel like we should talk about like the origin of that cinnamon / # roll like it comes from The Onion, right? Isn't that what it is? Like?

Andie Christopher 10:53 / #
It's like, it's like this sweet cinnamon / # roll of a human is too good and sweet for this world.

Jennifer Prokop 10:57 / #
Yes. And there's Also a really funny tweet. I should find that-- Yeah, I think it's funny because a lot of people like why cinnamon / # rolls? And I think it's actually a it comes from this Onion piece and I think it's just sort of pervasively became this really funny thing that everyone just really glommed on to as being a great way to describe a certain kind of character. And the fact that, I feel like one of, a pioneering person in terms of like defining it was Olivia dade. And we linked to her list of cinnamon / # roll heroes a bunch of times. But what she says is, "Cinnamon / # roll heroes are supportive, kind people who do their best even when they make mistakes." And so that is what it is that she defines as being a cinnamon / # roll hero. And then she made out, got a whole bunch of people to crowdsource the list and so if you're looking for heroes like this, after we talked about it today, we will link to this list because it is amazing and has, I don't know, 70 or 100 books on it that you might want to check out.

Andie Christopher 12:07 / #
Yeah, I think a couple of my books are on that too, but I'm not sure if those books are quite accurately as cinnamon / # roll-y as I thought they were.

Jennifer Prokop 12:14 / #
interesting.

Andie Christopher 12:15 / #
I mean, I think they are just not quite... I'm not going at.. I'm not on the Simone scale. I'm somewhere on the Claybourne curve.

Sarah MacLean 12:29 / #
I'm gonna go ahead and say that cinnamon / # roll heroes don't even make Simone scale. Her zero point on the access is Darcy, who is not a cinnamon / # roll. So,

Andie Christopher 12:43 / #
Okay, but I was thinking about this today. And I think Father Bell [hero of PRIEST by Sierra Simone] is in some senses.

Sarah MacLean 12:51 / #
What are you saying right now?

Jennifer Prokop 12:57 / #
You Gotta start over again. Time Out. Recalibrate.

Sarah MacLean 13:02 / #
Oh my god no

Jennifer Prokop 13:03 / #
Andie!

Sarah MacLean 13:04 / #
I'm pretty sure Sierra Simone is in London right now at Rare London, and I feel like she just woke up at like 5am and was like there's a disturbance.

Andie Christopher 13:15 / #
she would love me for saying something blasphemous...

Sarah MacLean 13:18 / #
But I will hear your arguments. Miss Christopher.

Andie Christopher 13:24 / #
Okay. For me, the cinnamon / # roll hero's number one priority is the heroine's emotional, mental, and or spiritual well being, physical well being. So that kind of overrides everything else and I think, Father Bell, because we're so in his head, expends a lot of the conflict of the book is trying to put the heroine's emotional, physical and spiritual well being over his own wants and desires that he has attempted unsuccessfully to sublimate.

Sarah MacLean 14:04 / #
Okay, so I think this is really interesting because I guess that all makes that all makes sense to me but what I don't understand is like how is that different than what any romance hero wants? Like? I think about Derek Craven, right? Who was our first book of the of the season or frankly most Kresley Cole heroes-- I mean not, okay, pbviously not Lothaire. But like, you know, there are others. Like all those werewolf heroes. I mean like werewolves...are they, are werewolf cinnamon / # rolls?

Andie Christopher 14:45 / #
I think the were-- of Kresley levels-- the werewolf in "A Hunger Like No Other" I'm his name is escaping me right now. He's not a cinnamon / # roll, I would say, and like MacReive is not a cinnamon / # roll

Jennifer Prokop 14:59 / #
See! Because I'm like, none of them are, Andie! What the hell are you talking about?

Sarah MacLean 15:03 / #
She's not wrong. Because what about about Lucia and...

Andie Christopher 15:06 / #
Declan.

Jennifer Prokop 15:07 / #
Declan! He's the vivisector!

Andie Christopher 15:11 / #
Sorry!

Sarah MacLean 15:15 / #
Well, we're the same way with all those heroes. Lucia and help, help me.

Jennifer Prokop 15:21 / #
Garreth.

Sarah MacLean 15:21 / #
in the Amazon

Andie Christopher 15:22 / #
Garreth. Yes,

Sarah MacLean 15:23 / #
Garrett?

Jennifer Prokop 15:24 / #
Garreth. Is it Garreth?

Sarah MacLean 15:26 / #
Yeah. Is he a cinnamon / # roll?

Jennifer Prokop 15:28 / #
No.

Andie Christopher 15:29 / #
I think he's a little bit of a cinnamon / # roll.

Jennifer Prokop 15:31 / #
I feel like I have to log off and go lay on a fainting couch. I don't understand anything anybody? Like, Oh,

Sarah MacLean 15:40 / #
All right. So this is really interesting-- somebody, but somebody else tweeted at us. A person named Charlotte, @romansdegare on Twitter, tweeted "I've still got that Fated Mates episode on the brain as I read "Damaged Goods" and starting to wonder if cinnamon / # roll conflict is often I'm caring for you emotionally so I can't lust after you. While alpha conflict is the reverse. I'm lusting after you so I can't care for you." And Jen and I sort of discussed this privately. And like there's something maybe here this, and you said it too. I think Andie when you said: you care about her like emotional and spiritual well being. Then you said, the third thing you said was physical, and I wonder if that's part of it. Like, where the relationship starts versus where it ends.

Jennifer Prokop 16:39 / #
So here's here's what I'm going to suggest, because I right now think-- as my blueprint-- is when I think of cinnamon / # rolls, to me, the pinnacle of cinnamon / # roll-dom is "Rafe" by Rebecca Weatherspoon. And I kind of felt, I literally was like, "I should reread part of it today to like, make sure I'm all on point." And I fell right back into the book. And I think there's a really interesting part. And there's also a really interesting thread someone tweeted us from her, a woman named Kat C, And what she said is cinnamon / # roll heroes are, not cinnamon / # rolls, but she "likes reading books where people are dealing with their baggage in not so aggressive ways." And I think what "Rafe" -- so there's this part in "Rafe" where he is essentially interviewing for the job to be her nanny, Sloan's nanny or her twin girls bailed-- literally, it's like horrifying as a mother-- she basically comes home and finds her six year old girls home alone. And the nanny left the keys to the car and the house keys with a note that said, "I quit. I just don't want to do this anymore." So she's really scrambling to find someone and she ends up getting Rafe, who's been essentially nannying, He's like in his early 30s, for like 10 or 12 years. And Rafe, at the interview says to her, "Um, I think we Have a problem. I've never, I've never nannied for a single mom I'm this attracted to before." And he just has, he's a grown up who can lay it out on the table and put it in front of her, as opposed to.... I don't know, like, stomping around and not admitting he has feelings. So to me a cinnamon / # roll is like, I have feelings, and I actually am aware of them. And I know what to do with them. I don't know you guys like. And the thing is, that to me is the it's because of course, alphas care for people! We talked about that. The difference I think, is

Sarah MacLean 18:36 / #
the emotion. The emotion sneaks up on an alpha.

Jennifer Prokop 18:39 / #
and a cinnamon / # roll person is like, Yes, I have feelings. Duh, who doesn't. And I'll tell you what, it's funny. I'm going to say one more thing. I there are parts of this book. I didn't do a lot of highlighting. There's this one part where they sort of like they kiss and she's like, "I'm not sure I really want to do this" and he's like, "okay, we're gonna leave it up to you." And then he's like, "What do you want?" And she says, "I want you to make this easy on me." And I was like, there you go. He was like, you're right. His communication skills are through the roof. That to me is what makes a cinnamon / # roll a cinnamon / # roll. Being able to communicate,

Andie Christopher 19:17 / #
yeah, can use this words as opposed to like, I want to punch someone.

Jennifer Prokop 19:20 / #
Okay. And in the case of brief, also his cock fine.

Andie Christopher 19:24 / #
I sort of reject the premise that any romance hero that I'm really going to fall in love with does not have a quasi-magical penis. Like, I want I want to be like, I'm vomiting out unicorns the next day thinking about the hero and what he can do with his magical member.

Jennifer Prokop 19:53 / #
I'm just giggling

Sarah MacLean 19:54 / #
I don't think you're alone in this.

Andie Christopher 19:57 / #
I just 100%... I hate, I don't like it when a book has an awkward sex scene between the hero and the heroine. That is the opposite of what my ID wants. Like my ID wants him to like, bang it out, make her see stars

Jennifer Prokop 20:14 / #
into next week!

Andie Christopher 20:15 / #
into next week, every single time. I need it. That's just it's a baseline.

Jennifer Prokop 20:24 / #
Rafe can get it, you guys! I just want you to know. I think part of the reason Rafe is particularly-- I don't read a whole lot of cinnamon / # roll books. This one really worked for me. And I think there are a couple reasons why. One is because I hate cooking and cleaning. And I did not like raising my child. I love my son, you guys, but I didn't... those years when he was really young were really hard for me. I still hate cooking and cleaning and always well. But the idea that a competent man is going to appear and like take over those tasks for me in my house. And also Fuck me into next week. Hello. Sign me up. I mean, I'm sorry. Maybe that's not everyone's fantasy, but I'm going to tell you right now. It is hot. It worked for me.

Sarah MacLean 21:11 / #
Okay, so here's my thing, right? So I was trying to come up with cinnamon / # rolls, who I have loved. And this obviously is a challenge for me. But I, here are two who I've loved. And ironically, it's the same trope, right?

Jennifer Prokop 21:31 / #
Okay, interesting.

Sarah MacLean 21:32 / #
I loved the hero and Helen Hoang's "The Kiss Quotient."

Andie Christopher 21:38 / #
Love him.

Sarah MacLean 21:39 / #
And I loved the hero in Claire Kent's "Escorted." And in both of those cases, we're talking about soft heroes, who are all the things that you are saying-- Able to vocalize emotion, able to understand like their emotional relationship with the world, They've been through therapy, or they have these big families. But at the same time, they're male escorts and highly-- Here you are, Jen--able to bang you into next week

Sarah MacLean 22:25 / #
But also I think there's something, but at the same time, like in that particular dynamic, I think the reason why both these heroes work well for me, is because there is sort of, there is a power structure here. Like they are deeply competent, and sort of teaching the heroine something. And so maybe they're not cinnamon / # rolls at all. I don't know are they?

Jennifer Prokop 22:53 / #
Clearly we're the three wrong people to be talking about this.

Andie Christopher 22:57 / #
I mean, I definitely think--I I haven't read "Escorted." But I definitely think Michael in "The Kiss Quotient" is a cinnamon / # roll. Um,

Sarah MacLean 23:06 / #
I mean, he's got that big family. He cares so much about his sisters and his mom. I mean, He's amazing.

Andie Christopher 23:13 / #
I think there's an interesting sort of layer of conflicts there because like, I think at first, he's not trying to let her into that part of him. So he is a cinnamon / # roll, but he has this, this sort of layer that he keeps between himself, his true self, and his clients. And so I think, you know, part of the conflict and part of them overcoming their conflict is she penetrates that. And the way I think, yeah, so it makes sense,

Sarah MacLean 23:43 / #
Jen!

Jennifer Prokop 23:44 / #
you guys, I'm doing my best.

Andie Christopher 23:48 / #
It's my... I think, penetrate is the right word, because like she's a little bit sort of the alpha in that, in that power dynamic. She really, she gets under his skin. You know, I think in a way, more quickly than... and then he gets under hers.

Sarah MacLean 24:11 / #
Yeah, it's just it's a really interesting question because... so it takes us, So that is the second piece of the question is, is a cinnamon / # roll and a beta the same? Or like is that even worth having -- like do betas even exist? But then I think they kind of do, right? So we talked a little bit about the history of the alpha when we talked about alphas, and we're doing a lot of conversational romance history as we do this season. And so I think it's valuable for us to talk about the history of the beta, right? And again, I think it's important and I just want to qualify when we talk about the history and we say like early books, or we say "the first" right, we're not obviously it's almost never the actual first

Jennifer Prokop 24:58 / #
Yeah, right.

Sarah MacLean 24:59 / #
Like the last six months of my life have been researching romance novels for the RITA award ceremony and Andie was doing that with me, and the most illuminating thing about it was that every time we thought we'd found the first like, five days later, we found an earlier first. So, I think we need to talk about betas and we need to talk about Julia Quinn because while she may not have written the first beta, she definitely is responsible for the popularizing of the beta. And that is because she wrote the Bridgerton series which, if you haven't heard of it, you soon will because Shonda Rhimes is turning it into a Netflix series literally as we speak. And the Bridgertons were this kind of, so Julia had written a couple of books beforehand, but sat down and sort of and wrote this really big boisterous family. Eight children who were named in alphabetical order, and they lived in, they were the children of a viscount. And they lived with their single, their widowed mother, in like a big house in London and they had a big country house and they sort of had these like, bright sparkling dialogue... scenes filled with sparkling dialogue and like, not a ton of plot happens in these books. It begins with a book called "The Duke and I." The plot of "the Duke and I," it's a very streamlined, straightforward plot. It doesn't have a lot of like, complex twists and turns and it doesn't have to because the dialogue is so beautiful and the characters are so bright. There's something very soft and wonderful about these books. But what's interesting is that prior to Julia-- historicals looked like, I mean, literally looks like Derek Craven, right? They, they look like, like these big bananas historicals. And then Julia came in and she wrote this family that was something very different. And the first Bridgerton book, which was "The Duke and I" was published in 2000. And I've spoken to I checked this data with Julia before we recorded because I wanted, I have a theory and I wanted to make sure that it checked out. And she confirmed that "The Duke and I" and "The Viscount Who Loved Me" and "An Offer From a Gentleman," which were published in 2000, 2000, and 2001, we're all very, did very well but like did not blow the doors off. "The Duke and I" did not come out like "50 Shades," although often we think about that as being one of those books now. In fact, the fourth book in the series, which is "Romancing Mr. Bridgerton" is the book that sort of really was the sort of leap into huge for that series. And that book came out in 2002. And I have a theory that, you know, we've talked on this on this podcast and I've talked a lot in the world about post 9/11. There being this kind of boom in paranormal because readers were looking for these like big, huge alphas who could literally save the universe. And they were like, that was safety in fear and sort of existential fear that Americans were feeling post 9/11. But I'm actually wondering if at the same time, we weren't also going through a period where books were getting softer. And there was room for these like soft heroes who were the antithesis of every romance hero we'd seen before. And I'm wondering if we're seeing that now, too. The sort of rise of dark romance on one side, these kinds of like, truly bananas books that are taking the finger on one side, and something else entirely that's happening now in the world.

Andie Christopher 29:13 / #
I -think you're right. I think that actually that jives with my theory of the cinnamon / # roll and why they're appealing

Sarah MacLean 29:21 / #
so do that.

Andie Christopher 29:23 / #
Okay, so I think they're particularly appealing to sort of millennial and Gen Z. single women, or women who have recently been dating, because the cis hetero men that we are dating are fucking terrible.

Jennifer Prokop 29:43 / #
I'm Sorry I laughed.

Sarah MacLean 29:44 / #
Break it down for us Andie

Andie Christopher 29:46 / #
all we want is a nice guy, who we don't have to raise, who doesn't hate us because we don't want to have sex with them right away. Or doesn't think we're a slut if we do who can use his words and cares about whether we have an orgasm-- in a larger sense of than what it says about his own ego. Someone who can actually be a partner instead of someone who is going to destroy your like--who's gonna take your finger. But I think on the other, on the other side of that, you also if you don't if you're dating a lot of, you know, softer gentlemen, who can't make a plan to save their lives. There's an appeal to reading about a man who wants you so much he will, he will plan an abduction. And I think this was like the first thing I said..

Sarah MacLean 29:56 / #
He will plan...nice

Andie Christopher 30:39 / #
..to Kristin Ashley and I did make her laugh. I was like, I think the appeal of like abduction fiction because I think she was talking about alpha heroes. Like, at least this guy can plan a date.

Jennifer Prokop 31:06 / #
Oh my god,

Sarah MacLean 31:08 / #
don't abduct women, male listeners!

Andie Christopher 31:12 / #
Do not, don't abduct women, but, you know, make a dinner reservation. Don't say, yeah, like where do you want to go? say I want to try this restaurant-- What do you think? it's all about the balance.

Jennifer Prokop 31:26 / #
Can I ask a question? I'm going to throw it out there. I, I do not read, I don't read much inspirational romance unless it's written by Piper Huguley. But I am wondering if the rise of Amish romance, and sort of Christian romance, around the same time-- because my understanding is it's also came about at the same time. If cinnamon / # rolls are essentially a secular version of of a like a more...Like a inspirational hero?

Sarah MacLean 32:05 / #
I don't know. I don't know and I don't know enough about inspirational to be able to speak really thoughtfully on it.

Jennifer Prokop 32:13 / #
I mean, well, maybe we'll just throw it out there for our listeners to do

Sarah MacLean 32:16 / #
if you do. I would love to hear that. You know, Andie thinks that Sierra Simone is out there writing betas.

Andie Christopher 32:24 / #
I didn't say he wasa Beta, I said he was like a little bit of a cinnamon / # roll.

Sarah MacLean 32:30 / #
He's the Conrad Wroth of...

Jennifer Prokop 32:32 / #
Yeah, yeah. He's gonna use that icing for Lub, I mean, I don't know.

Andie Christopher 32:37 / #
Can we talk about stern brunch Daddies.

Jennifer Prokop 32:39 / #
Oh, yeah, sure.

Andie Christopher 32:41 / #
Okay, so this is this is all Sarah's fault.

Sarah MacLean 32:44 / #
It's Andie's genius, though.

Andie Christopher 32:47 / #
Yeah, I did come up with the term. So Sarah posted this picture of Oscar Isaac sitting at like a table, at what looks like a restaurant, like holding a fork and like staring intently at the camera, and she's like, okay, Andie, I see him now. AI was like, Oh, I get what you like you like a stern brunch daddy. A guy who is gonna make sure your Mimosa never goes empty, but then he'll like spank you until you cry later.

Jennifer Prokop 33:11 / #
Sure, sure.

Sarah MacLean 33:13 / #
I mean, he would never allow you to be seated by the kitchen.

Andie Christopher 33:16 / #
Never. Like never he wants to talk to the manager.

Sarah MacLean 33:21 / #
It's true. This is only because I have Chris Evans blindness, meaning if he doesn't look Stern, I don't see him. I'm unable to see him and I have that problem with Oscar Isaac too, because I feel like if he doesn't look Stern, I don't even know what I'm looking at us like a blank face.

Andie Christopher 33:39 / #
Yeah, I mean, he has to serve up a little bit of Derek Craven for you to feel it.

Sarah MacLean 33:43 / #
Precisely. Which is why we're doing this podcast, this episode, because I don't I truly want to understand it. Because it's interesting and I think that what we're coming to is that it is in actual fact a exactly two sides of the same coin. Because everything that, you know, every way that we're articulating this in terms of like care and comfort and protection-- or not protection-- but care and comfort and like ease, right, like softness is ultimately what we want from the alpha on the other side. But it's it's almost like we're talking about when you get to see it in the book, like,

Andie Christopher 33:44 / #
Yeah,

Sarah MacLean 33:44 / #
do you see the transformation in the book? And if you do, it's like that. Then you've started as you know, I'm air quoting. You can't see it, but

Andie Christopher 34:40 / #
right.

Jennifer Prokop 34:41 / #
I don't know. I. I feel like because where

Sarah MacLean 34:45 / #
does the transformation come from the storm brunch?

Andie Christopher 34:47 / #
He just is

Jennifer Prokop 34:48 / #
I feel like cinnamon / # role heroes don't transform--- I feel like heroines do. Their romantic partners transform not them.

Sarah MacLean 34:56 / #
So when you think about Rafe, what's the transformation in the book?

Jennifer Prokop 35:00 / #
It's not, that's, okay. So I think the transformation in the book is for the heroine who in this case her ex husband is real dirtbag. And this is it's the only man she's ever been with. And so to be with Rafe to be with someone who respects, her who--she's this amazing surgeon, right? Who, who she can say, "I want you to make this easy for me" and he listens to her. I mean, it is just a transformitive-- like Andie was saying-- it's a transformative experience for her because she has been used to men disrespecting her and now she does not have to suffer that in her home. Right? And, and, and deep dicking into next week. I mean, this guy really knows how to take care of her in every way. So, but he, I do not see him as being a character who really undergoes change. He is--

Sarah MacLean 35:51 / #
Would we say like, they're, they're perfect from the start? Because Michael in "The Kiss Quotient" is pretty fucking perfect.

Jennifer Prokop 36:00 / #
Well, here's here's what I would suggest, because I actually don't know that I think they're opposites as much as I think it's just trying to achieve something different. And you're, as you were talking, I guess I would say this: to me, the alpha is like, I am pursuing what I want and that's also going to end up being what the heroine wants, we're going to figure it out together. But to me, a cinnamon / # roll hero-- if it's male, female romance-- is like, I know who I am. And I'm pretty happy and I'm wildly attracted to this woman. So my goal is to make sure she's getting what she wants. And I do think that those are different. That's, that's how it reads to me. When it works.

Sarah MacLean 36:41 / #
Yeah,

Jennifer Prokop 36:43 / #
I mean, that's what Michael wants, right for Stella in "The Kiss Quotient." He's like, what do you need from me? What what, how can I move you along this path that you're on? Now? I think he does undergo a journey.

Sarah MacLean 36:54 / #
Okay. But here's the thing, A lot of people came at us on Twitter about this and they were like, they were like, The problem with alphas, the problem with alphas is that they never want, they never want to hold up women and give women what they need. Right? They don't want women to have jobs. They don't want women to, you know, they don't want to support women in their careers or whatever. Right. And I think that that's a really interesting, and that's sort of what you're not saying, You're not in the extreme like that. But like, you're sort of dancing around that too. And that doesn't make very much sense to me in a modern role, like maybe the old romances? In a modern romance-- I've never written a hero who's like, "now you stay home, you don't get to keep running your bar" instead Haven has office in the bar now.

Jennifer Prokop 37:39 / #
So to me, if that's what an alpha is, I don't like it.

Sarah MacLean 37:44 / #
Yeah, well, if there's a parity issue that I think like gets lost in the argument here. Like,

Jennifer Prokop 37:51 / #
I just think alpha heroes if if we're comparing them and I don't even honestly know if it's that useful. Like maybe it's just different things entirely.

Sarah MacLean 38:00 / #
Maybe we're just spinning our wheels.

Andie Christopher 38:01 / #
I think it's hard to write like a really, really close to pure alpha in a contemporary romance Are you like you believe that you want, you would want to be in that same kind of relationship? And so to a certain extent, you know, there's still like alpha heroes and contemporary romance, obviously. But I think they're tempered to a certain degree. If your goal is to write a book that isn't like escapist.

Sarah MacLean 38:31 / #
right Right, right. Yeah. Fantasy right like if it's not you know, 50 shades like billionaire

Andie Christopher 38:40 / #
or like a motorcycle club. If it's not, it's not like um, you know, sort of a world you don't live in right?

Sarah MacLean 38:47 / #
It's not a Harlequin presents,

Andie Christopher 38:49 / #
Right. I mean, I think you can even write like, more pure alphas if you're writing sports romances. You're writing about like, larger than life.

Jennifer Prokop 38:59 / #
I want to go back to me like this really foundational moment in "Rafe" right? She says, "I want you to make this easy for me." And he as a cinnamon / # roll understands that what that means is I'm My job is to figure out what she needs and give it to her. I think if you said to an alpha, I want you to make this easy for me, he'd be like, "great, Just do what I want." And I don't think that means like, don't have a job. I think that just means like, Don't make me feel feelings. Right? Like let's just like have all the sex and stuff. I don't know!

Sarah MacLean 39:31 / #
I don't think it would be, "Don't." I don't think it would be "don't-- just do what I want." I think it would be like "Fine. Who do I pay to fix this problem?"

Jennifer Prokop 39:42 / #
Yes, Right.

Sarah MacLean 39:43 / #
Who do I punch to make you feel better? Like for an alpha he's he's a battering ram. He's like, "What do I have to break to make you happy?"

Jennifer Prokop 39:55 / #
When she says this to Rafe, and I like I said, I think this moment, To me it really spoke to, At its core what it was, when she said, "I just want you to make this easy for me." He understand that. That meant she meant,

Sarah MacLean 40:06 / #
emotionally

Jennifer Prokop 40:07 / #
I'm a little, I'm a little afraid of making decisions. I'm a little tentative, I'm not sure. And his response was, like, "come down here. We're going to figure it out together." Right, which I'm going to tell you it really works for me. I think it's really sexy at every level, but just in a totally different way.

Sarah MacLean 40:24 / #
Yeah, no, I mean, who doesn't want that?

Jennifer Prokop 40:26 / #
Yes. Right.

Sarah MacLean 40:27 / #
That's great.

Jennifer Prokop 40:29 / #
I'm just saying, I think how if I said to Derek Craven-- just make this easy for me-- He's like, good! Leave and go back to Greenwood Corners, so I don't have to think about you because you're freaking me out.

Andie Christopher 40:43 / #
And I mean, like St. Vincent would be like, maybe we should bone. An orgasm will make you feel better.

Sarah MacLean 40:50 / #
Right? But in real life, I mean, this of course, makes perfect sense. In theory, it's it's the moment where you say, I have words Or I have concerns or I have, you know, whatever. And the response is I want I hear that and I want to act to fix them. Like that's a, that's a noble thing. Like, I wish we all had that every day.

Jennifer Prokop 41:15 / #
Well, and I mean, maybe that's the fantasy: that they never tire of us being needy. I mean, I don't know, I mean, I think it's, I liked what Andie said a lot. It's not this idea that someone if we said-- I just want you to make it-- sometimes I literally say to Darrell, he's like, "what do you want for dinner" and I say, "I just want you to decide, that's what I want." Like, literally, that's what I want. I want you to decide I want you to make that decision. I just want you to make dinner appear in front of me. That is what care looks like to me right now.

Andie Christopher 41:48 / #
I mean, there's that there's that meme that you just say "I'm baby." So there's that like, you sometimes just want to like walk in the door and be like, I'm Baby, I get all of the like love and attention and coddling; as opposed to, I feel like, this like applies to some of my friends who you know are in relationships, especially hetero relationships that they feel like they're doing a lot more work.

Jennifer Prokop 42:23 / #
You know what this reminds me of. Okay, so back when I did TFA right after I was out of college, I had a roommate named Amy. And Amy would say the thing that, the first time she said it, I was like, that's the truest fucking thing I've ever heard. She'd had a fight with her boyfriend. And I don't remember exactly how it came up. She was fighting with him, she had this really tumultuous relationship. And she said to me, she's like, "you know, you can't ask for flowers." And like what it meant was if you have to ask for the flowers in order to get them, they mean less. A gesture-- a romantic gesture-- has to be driven by the other person. They have to know that what you need or want is flowers, or that right it comes out of nowhere. And I feel like you would never have to ask a fucking cinnamon / # roll for flowers. You would have to say though, to many alpha heroes: flowers are an actual sign of affection and every once in a while if you bring them to me, I will be happy

Sarah MacLean 43:29 / #
Well, it's it's interesting because there's also I'm sort of like dancing around in my I'm like playing over and over my head this idea that like there's something here about toxic masculinity. Which is these heroes lack that kind of toxicity. They are masculine without toxicity. I retweeted somebody today who was trying to explain, just because we don't want toxic masculinity doesn't mean we don't want masculinity. We don't want acid rain, but We still want rain. I think that's a really useful, Shit. What's a call from the SATs?

Jennifer Prokop 44:10 / #
An analogy?

Andie Christopher 44:12 / #
metaphor?

Sarah MacLean 44:14 / #
With the blank colon blank

Jennifer Prokop 44:16 / #
An analogy.

Sarah MacLean 44:18 / #
Yeah, whatever. It's a really useful one of those-- I think there's something there, essentially it's pure, it's and I do think it's contemporaries more than anything else that are doing, this because I mean, if Andie to Andie's point--- it's terrible out there, right? It's like that mement in "When Harry Met Sally" when You know, Carrie Fisher leans back and turns to Bruno Kirby and is like,

movie dialogue 44:52 / #
Tell me I'll never have to be out there again.

Jennifer Prokop 44:54 / #
Yes, that's right.

Sarah MacLean 44:57 / #
This is the moment

Andie Christopher 44:59 / #
I feel like there's all these studies that people, like millennials and Gen Zers or is are literally not fucking. Like Gen Z does not fuck

Jennifer Prokop 45:13 / #
Sad.

Andie Christopher 45:15 / #
I mean it's it's real sad, it's sad for me...on a personal level. But that's why I'm glad we have Sierra Simone in the world. Anyway, but it's real bad, and so it like you just want like a guy who is like, I was thinking-- I want a guy who's gonna open my door for me, and like smack my ass on the way out, but he's gonna know he has permission. Um, he's already he's gonna make sure that's okay. But not like in a needy or clingy way.

Jennifer Prokop 45:50 / #
Yeah, I mean, there are no consent issues with...

Sarah MacLean 45:53 / #
but this is such a fantasy. I mean, what you just asked for Andy is like fucking impossible

Jennifer Prokop 45:59 / #
That is more of a fantasy than anything else, right?

Sarah MacLean 46:01 / #
And that's more, that's more of a fantasy than any of these fucking alphas. The idea that-- well, I want him to get consent, but I want to make sure but he can't be too weird about getting consent, it can't feel needy or unsexy, right? You want it to be both sexy and also very clear. And you know, I wanted to smack my ass, but also respect me. And that's not to say that all of this isn't totally reasonable. But here's what's interesting. That takes, in real life, a long time to build with a partner. But like in these books, these guys just have it all.

Andie Christopher 46:38 / #
Yeah, that's what I mean. I that's when I went when I was like writing the hero in "Not the girl you Marry," I specifically set him up as he has been the perfect boyfriend his entire life, and he's failed at relationships. And that's kind of where he starts. So I tried to like have a cinnamon / # roll with a journey. But I still wanted him to be virtually perfect.

Jennifer Prokop 47:06 / #
Of course I think about um, you know, so many of Christina Lauren's recent heores have been this way-- this kind of truly perfect guy who just hasn't fit right.

Andie Christopher 47:21 / #
And I feel like a lot of Kate Clayborn's heroes are that way, they have either definitely flawed and human and layered, but they're not, you never question that they respect the heroine. That's never of question, and and see her as an equal.

Sarah MacLean 47:42 / #
I'm wondering if this is part of why we're seeing, that we've seen so so many fake engagement stories, too, recently? Yeah. Because you know, in our fake engagement episode, Jen and I talked about the fact that like the fan, the fake engagement is like Like, play acting that fantasy relationship. And in order for that to happen, well, cinnamon / # roll hero can do that.

Andie Christopher 48:11 / #
Yeah, and it's also like a cinnamon / # roll hero like you're faking that perfect relationship. Plus he acts like a human Flak Jacket at something like a wedding.

Jennifer Prokop 48:21 / #
Yeah. You know what I keep thinking? When we talked about alphas, the thing we said was it's the fantasy of the alpha is that the patriarchy can be tamed. I think the fantasy of the cinnamon / # roll is that the patriarchy does not have to be trained. They already come in, they're coming fully trained, but they're fully human. Right? Like, there's no way in which-- they have their feelings, they, they understand consent, like they help, you know, literal helpers around the home and whatever way. I mean, you know, maybe that's it. It's like taming versus training.

Sarah MacLean 49:00 / #
Or maybe I would go one step further maybe this fantasy is the patriarchy doesn't exist.

Jennifer Prokop 49:08 / #
They are still masculine.

Sarah MacLean 49:11 / #
Well, that doesn't mean that --it's not, Again, they're just not acid rain?

Andie Christopher 49:17 / #
It doesn't exist within this one human. It hasn't like it hasn't rotted that person to his core. You don't have to send them to therapy for 10 years before you can even talk to him.

Jennifer Prokop 49:28 / #
Yeah. Or that the Yeah, maybe that's right. The patriarchy has not ruined them.

Sarah MacLean 49:35 / #
No.

Andie Christopher 49:36 / #
Yeah, cuz like a lot of the ones you get you know, if you're just trolling on Tinder you're like, Oh, wow. Oh, wow, you're-- this is this is spoiled. I'm just so mean. I'm so mean. That that's why I'm single is because I mean. You're like, oh, your shirtless picture with like the, you know, sleeping tiger. Just show that you're dick is huge. That? That's rotted to the core. I'm not a cinnamon / # roll and not an alpha really either.

Sarah MacLean 50:09 / #
No Well that's the other thing right? There's this like, perception of alpha as incel. And like that ain't it either.

Andie Christopher 50:17 / #
So no, because an alpha wouldn't-- as opposed to an incel--an alpha would never tell like the heroine she's ugly in order to like, get her to like him, or to get her to care about...

Sarah MacLean 50:33 / #
Yeah, no negging allowed.

Andie Christopher 50:37 / #
Yeah, I think we solved it. You guys, I think.

Jennifer Prokop 50:40 / #
All right, fair.

Sarah MacLean 50:41 / #
Well, now Andie, you have a book coming out with a cinnamon / # roll hero.

Andie Christopher 50:46 / #
I do.

Sarah MacLean 50:47 / #
My favorite kind of heroine, the unlikable kind.

Andie Christopher 50:50 / #
She, so what Jen was saying earlier about like the sort of the cinnamon / # roll hero being A foil to a heroine and who has a bigger journey--. And so a lot of the people who've read early copies of "Not the Girl You Marry," which is out on November 12, have said, most people talk about the heroine, Hannah. And part of that is because I basically poured so much myself into that character. It's a version of the trope in "How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days" with the gender roles updated. The heroine is biracial, It's set in Chicago, which is a place that I've lived. And Jack is a cinnamon / # roll. He's always been the perfect boyfriend. He's a literal, honest to God, choir boy. And he like falls instantly in love with the heroine who is giving him the finger at a bar and He works for like a BuzzFeed like type publication. And he's like a video guy. And he does how- to's. And so his boss tasks him with how to lose a girl, and he, he, the only girl he's met of late is Hannah. And so he sets about losing her by doing all of the terrible things that guys who are spoiled by toxic masculinity do-- like sending dick pics, not being communicative, Trying to make her jealous, all of that dumb shit. And she's an event planner, and she wants to get into weddings, but she's very, very soured on romance and her boss is like, "you don't even believe in love." She's like, "Yes, I do. I'll show you. I just met a guy. I have a boyfriend." And so she like has to continue dating Jack to convince her boss that she's not completely soured on the concept of love. And then high jinks ensue. But her journey really is the more angsty emotional journey. She has to come to believe that she deserves love and belonging from not only jack but from her friends who have been trying to offer it to her. So she has to learn to make herself vulnerable. Jack, on the other hand has to learn to stand up for himself a little bit more and take into account what he wants and, you know, not just surrender to whatever like his girlfriend was. And in that way, he basically has to get Hannah to respect him in a way. Not that he's soft. He's like, I mean, he is soft, but he's not. He's a little like I described him as a cinnamon / # roll from the corner of the pan. He is crusty and

Jennifer Prokop 53:54 / #
that's actually amazing.

Sarah MacLean 53:56 / #
Perfect. Well, so not the girl you marry is out November 12. You can pre order it now from all your favorite bookstores. And we will put links to it in show notes. And Andie, what comes and after that? There's a companion.

Andie Christopher 54:21 / #
There's a second one. So they're both standalone. The second book, it's called "Not that Kind of Guy" has a character from the first book in it and it's actually a workplace romance between assistant State's Attorney in Chicago and her much younger intern who comes from an extremely wealthy, politically connected family. And she sort of just like thinks he's a twerp, like a very attractive twerp. Um, and he is madly in love with on first sight, which is a theme Because that's my id and they're working togethe

Sarah MacLean 55:04 / #
Fated Mates.

Andie Christopher 55:05 / #
It's Fated Mates. I love Fated Mates rope and yeah, high jinks ensue. There's there's a trip to Vegas you know there's a wedding. And yeah, so it's it's still more her journey because she has to like come to terms with the ending of her relationship with her childhood sweetheart and he really just, he needs to learn how to like stand up to his family. Um, so he's he's definitely another cinnamon / # roll because he just, you know, wants to take care of people and he you know, wants people to love him. Um, but he's, he's really hot.

Jennifer Prokop 55:45 / #
Well, that goes will Oh, I mean, that fixes a lot.

Sarah MacLean 55:48 / #
it goes without saying Yeah,

Andie Christopher 55:49 / #
yeah, no, I mean, I fall a little bit in love with him throughout the course of the book. Bridget, the heroine in then the second, in "not that kind of guy" is good friends with her, with the heroine-- becomes good friends with the heroine in the first book. And so there's also that friendship and a sense of found family, which is also it's an id for me in books.

Sarah MacLean 56:21 / #
Well, this is amazing. And I'm so glad that you texted me with your idea about why cinnamon / # rolls work. And I think because I do I mean like, I think you're right. I think Jen and I have been talking-- and not just us, we didn't invent this conversation. But for the last two years we've seen this sort of evolution and romance and it seems to be going so quickly. And there's this sort of sense of people are calling them you know, they're it's you know: is everything a rom com? What's happening with all these illustrated covers? What are we trying to say with these covers? What are we trying to say with the Books? And I think cinnamon / # rolls are somehow wrapped up in this conversation in a really interesting way. And I'm always interested, as you both know, and why things happen and what these books are doing the work that they're doing. And if it is about pure fantasy, first of all, oh, men do better.

Andie Christopher 57:24 / #
I mean, I think it's, I think it's about like convincing readers -- writing the book for me, "Not the Girl you Marry" is about convincing myself that love was possible in a world as broken as this. But my conclusion is, that thesis is, the guy has to be close to perfect. And I think it's like, we don't need to be in relationships. And so I think, why are we in relationships? And I think that's what I think that's what a lot of these books are asking. Like, what are we looking for in partnership? And why bother?

Jennifer Prokop 57:56 / #
You know, the thing I keep thinking about though, the fantasy part, I think is really powerful. And I think romance is really transformative, I think it's often very difficult to sort of, I think the best romances put both characters on a journey. And sometimes that journey happens together and sometimes the journey is a little stronger for one than the other. And I think what I really like about like I said in a cinnamon / # roll, in a male, female, where the cinnamon / # roll is the hero, what I really appreciate the most, is the sense that the heroine's journey is really highlighted. And that it his job to like showcase, what she is capable of and like make that possible. And that to me is--you know, not just that such a man exists but that you know, like self acculizatin, like finding yourself, and in a romantic relationship that your romantic partner makes you better and stronger. I mean, that's something we do all deserve. And I think that this is one really powerful way that romance shows that that can happen. I guess that's what I'd say.

Sarah MacLean 59:11 / #
Well, Andie, thank you so much for joining us.

Andie Christopher 59:15 / #
Thank you for having me. It was so much fun.

Sarah MacLean 59:17 / #
Andy, tell everybody where they can find you online.

Andie Christopher 59:21 / #
I am on I am on twitter @authorandieJ, and I'm on Instagram where you'll mostly see pictures of my dog. My Facebook is also @authorandieJ, and I there you'll see a lot of pictures of my dog. And you know, news about books. but I am I'm mostly shouting on Twitter.

Sarah MacLean 59:48 / #
Well, thank you for coming on Fated Mates. Everyone Next week, we'll be back with another deep dive read from season two, And you can find us on Twitter at Fated Mates or on Instagram at Fated Mates pod. You can buy Fated Mates pins from Kelly @resistancebuttons on Jen's website, jenreadsromance.com. Fated Mates is produced by Eric Mortensen and we will see you all next week. Enjoy your cinnamon / # rolls.

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AMA, Bonus Episode Jennifer Prokop AMA, Bonus Episode Jennifer Prokop

Periods, Pizza, and Point of View: Another AMA with Jen & Sarah

Jen and Sarah were together in the same city in the same room and just couldn’t pass up the chance to do a real-deal AMA while looking at each other’s faces! You asked, we answered…but get ready. There are some weird things in here (mainly said by Jen).

Next week, it’s MacRieve week with Sierra Simone! If you think things got weird this week, just you wait! Get MacRieve at Amazon, B&N, Apple Books, Kobo, or from your local Indie.

Show Notes

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