S05.37: Fated Mates Live
In March, we had the absolute best time with some of our favorite people at Fated Mates LIVE in Brooklyn! Here, for your enjoyment, is the recording of the wacky, wild night, which we spent with 250 Magnificent Firebirds, including: Tessa Bailey, Andie Christopher, Adriana Herrera and Joanna Shupe, who took the opportunity to announce that evening that she also writes mafia romance as Mila Finelli (*GASP!*)!
We cannot stress this enough: Headphones in!
We were also joined by Amanda Litman, the co-founder and co-executive director of Run for Something, and by Erin Leafe, the host of our sister podcast, Learning the Tropes! Special shout out to Producer Pat from Learning the Tropes, who helped Eric get the whole event recorded beautifully. You can read more about the whole event at Brooklyn Magazine! [PDF here]
We’re approximating the experience of Fated Mates Live every day over on the Fated Mates Discord, which you can access by becoming a Patron of the podcast! Find out more at: fatedmates.net/patreon.
Books By Our Guests
Books Recommended By Our Guests
Bonus! Fated Mates Live in Alexandria, VA
We're on hiatus until September 14, when we'll start Season 5, but you won’t miss us, because this week, we have the recording of Fated Mates Live, our first-ever in-person live! Headphones in for this one, y’all.
We were joined in Alexandria, VA by Kate Clayborn, Adriana Herrera, Tracey Livesay, Naima Simone, Ali Hazelwood, Diana Quincy, Andie J. Christopher, and Sophie Jordan, and we had the best time! This audio is imperfect, but there’s so much laughter here — we hope you’ll join us for the next one (which will hopefully be in the spring)…stay tuned on that front!
Be sure to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting app so you know the moment we return.
Thanks to Fox & Wit, creators of the Foxglove Special Edition Book Box of Kennedy Ryan's Before I Let Go, available for preorder now. The box comes with a special edition cover of Before I Let Go, a signed book plate, and a letter from Kennedy herself.
Season 5 starts in two weeks! Our first read along of the season is Lisa Kleypas’s Marrying Winterborne. Get it at Amazon, Apple Books, Barnes & Noble, Kobo, or at your local indie.
Show Notes
Our first in-person Live event was a smashing success! We welcomed Kate Clayborn, Adriana Herrera, Tracey Livesay, Naima Simone, Ali Hazelwood, Diana Quincy, Andie J. Christopher, and Sophie Jordan. Thank you to Old Town Books for partnering with us on this event.
Thank you to the audience for their participation! We used a platform called Menti, which turned the screen behind us into an interactive platform (like an Instagram Live) where our audience could respond and comment. If we all have a reaction to something you can't hear....it's because someone in the audience said something brilliantly funny using Menti.
The book Sarah accidentally interstitialed during the recording is C.M. Nascosta's Sweet Berries.
Sponsor
This week’s episode of Fated Mates
is sponsored by:
Fox & Wit,
Book subscription boxes delivered right to your door.
Get a beautiful, exclusive edition of Kennedy Ryan’s Before I Let Go
from their Foxglove series of romances at foxandwit.com
Jessa Kane New Year's Eve Extravaganza
WELCOME 2021!
As is customary on Fated Mates, we’re releasing a special New Year’s Eve episode that requires headphones if you’re in mixed company! We brought some of our most favorite people together for a very special crossover episode of Fated Mates and Andie J. Christopher’s Instagram TV Juggernaut: Drunk Romance History, during which we drink a delightful mix of alcohol and talk about a delightful mix of erotic romance by the queen of the quick and dirty novella—Jessa Kane.
We’re talking priests and daddy kink, mafia hitmen, billionaires, husky heroes, stepbrothers and what Joanna Shape refers to as the Kane-Trope-Wheel. Tracey Livesay has a mug with penises on it. Bring in 2021 right. (Also, if you, like Joanna and Jen have read all of the Jessa Kane’s, no worries! She released a new one today—BURLY—just in time for this episode! Shero!)
Head over to Andie’s IGTV channel for the video version.
Next week, we have a special guest episode, and in two weeks, our first read along of 2021, Alexis Hall’s For Real. Get it at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, or Kobo.
Show Notes
One more chance for phone-banking is Monday 1/4/2021 at 5pm central.
Listen to last year's New Year's Eve epsiode on Pegging with special guest, Sierra Simone!
Have we mentioned Drunk Romance History on Andie's Instagram?
We are joined today by our friends: Andie Christopher, Alexis Daria, Adriana Herrera, LaQuette, Tracey Livesay, Nisha Sharma, and Joanna Shupe.
Get Tracey's penis mug here.
Normalize sex toys. Today's guests are big fans of LELO products and recommend: The Ora2, The Sona2, and The Gigi2.
Jessa Kane: Starter Level
The Two Ps, One V Level
The Daddy Level
The Voyeur Level
He’s a Big, Big Man Level
He’s a Bad, Bad Man Level
Books from our Guests
Jennifer Prokop 0:04 / #
Sarah, it's New Year's Eve and you know what that means?
Sarah MacLean 0:06 / #
We have what like, six hours till 2021! We've just got to hold it down you guys.
Jennifer Prokop 0:13 / #
Some of our listeners are already living in that 2021 future.
Sarah MacLean 0:17 / #
My God, is that amazing? Report in Australia, India, Russia! Hello anyway, but what are we doing, because we don't usually release on a Thursday?
Jennifer Prokop 0:31 / #
No, we certainly do not! But it is New Year's Eve. What we do usually do though, around New Year's Eve is release an episode that is going to be the flat out dirtiest one of the year.
Jennifer Prokop 0:43 / #
I don't know the first year, maybe we weren't on this train. But last year, we released our pegging episode, which is probably one of our best episodes ever.
Sarah MacLean 0:50 / #
Aside from 50 shades. I'm pretty sure that episode is our most popular episode.
Sarah MacLean 0:54 / #
And why not? Why would it not be?
Jennifer Prokop 0:58 / #
Start your new year with a new resolution? Try new things. So, we were talking...
Sarah MacLean 1:05 / #
No, you weren't there!
Jennifer Prokop 1:05 / #
So tell us what happened.
Sarah MacLean 1:07 / #
I have a group of friends. You know a lot of them because they've been on the podcast. And we were having a holiday drink via zoom. And during this holiday drink via zoom, and one of those people is Andie Christopher, who is running an Instagram Live fun thing every Saturday called Drunk Romance History, where people drink and then talk about an old romance novel that is bananas. And that's extremely fun. And you should go watch all of them on her Instagram feed. Anyway, so as we were talking, we got into a discussion of Jessa Kane, who we've not talked about, I don't think, on the pod even when we did those quick and dirty episode.
Jennifer Prokop 1:47 / #
I think we mentioned one of them on the mafia interstitial.
Jennifer Prokop 1:52 / #
It's because it's really like a erotica. It's not really quite erotic romance.
Sarah MacLean 1:56 / #
I also feel like we came to Jessica Kane a little later. Because when we did the quick and dirty episode, the fact that we did not reference her would be just very remiss, but maybe we weren't reading her then. I don't know. But the point is, she's very quick and very dirty. And so we started talking about how she really does like, she sort of takes the finger constantly. Like there's just there's no, there's no level of Jessa Kanedom that you can get to where it feels like it's too much.
Sarah MacLean 2:28 / #
It takes the finger and puts it everywhere a finger could go.
Sarah MacLean 2:31 / #
Indeed she does.
Sarah MacLean 2:32 / #
And so we you know, we're drinking at the time, and we were laughing and there was some suggestions and somebody suggested, "Oh, Andie, you should do a just Kane episode of drunk romance history." And I said, "Well, what if we recorded a big zoom conversation about Jesss Kane and our respective favorite books, or the first book we read? Some of them were Jessa Kane virgins. And we all came together this week to record what was an extremely fun zoom about Jessa Kane. It is a crossover episode. So you are about to get Fated Mates - slash - Drunk Romance History. So you can hear the audio right here in your earholes. And then if you want to see LaQuette's face, which is very worth worth watching, to be honest, you can head over to Andie's Instagram account, which is @authorAndieJ. And we'll put links in show notes and you can watch the video version of this very fun hour and a half. As we did last year with the pegging episode, we're going to drop this early in the evening. So if you are staying safe, and masked, and solo New Year's Eve style, you have many hours and many Jessa Kane books to get through.
Jennifer Prokop 3:58 / #
One last serious order of business before we turn it over. It is New Year's Eve. On Monday, which is January 4, we are doing our last Fated States phonebank for Ossoff Warnock with the indivisible team. It will be from five to seven Central, I will drop the link to sign up and show notes. And this is our last big push everybody. A huge number of voters have already voted in Georgia. I will be honest, last time we phonebanked, we talked to a lot of people who said, "I already voted." And so it feels great to just hear all those Georgia voters who have already done their part and maybe we'll catch somebody who hasn't. So if you are looking for one last way to turn this ship we call democracy around, we would love to have you with us phone banking on Monday night
Sarah MacLean 4:45 / #
And if you're in Georgia, vote your Ossoff. I love that phrase.
Jennifer Prokop 4:51 / #
It's actually great.
Sarah MacLean 4:57 / #
I wish there was a vote your Warnock but that's not a thing. Yeah, that doesn't mean anything, but vote your Warnock too. We love you guys. Happy New Year. Thanks for being with us through 2020 it really made the big a big difference for us to have you and to know that you were out there listening. And 2021, is it's gonna be great. I feel great about it. Me too. I got a feeling 21 is going to be a good year. Wait a second. Eric. That's a song.
Music Lyric 5:28 / #
Got a feeling 21 is gonna be a good year. Especially for you and me, seeing it together. So you think 21 is gonna be a good year. Could be good for me and Herman
Andie Christopher 5:50 / #
Drunk Fated Mates?
Nisha Sharma 5:55 / #
Me? I like it.
Sarah MacLean 5:58 / #
It kind of began with Drunk Mates. So, Andie Christopher, why don't you tell everybody what they won. Oh, wait, wait, Hang on. Hang on. Eric wants to check. Oh, okay. All right. We're good. We're good to go. We've been approved.
Adriana Herrera 6:19 / #
Thank you, Eric
Andie Christopher 6:21 / #
This group, I think minus Jen. Jen wasn't able to join us, got drunk a couple of weeks ago to celebrate all the Sagittarius birthdays. And we got to talking about some of our favorite bananas books. And one author that I think most of us discovered this year during the quarantine, is the prolific, the filthy, the bananas, Jessa Kane. And so we thought it would be fun to do a crossover Drunk Romance History/ Fated Mates episode about Jessa Kane in general. Yes. And so some of us are have read all of the Jessa Kanes. Some of us have read some of the Jessa Kanes. Some of us had read like one of the Jessa Kanes
Sarah MacLean 7:19 / #
New to Jessa Kane.
Andie Christopher 7:24 / #
And so we're coming together to just talk about our love affair with these with these books that. I mean,
Jennifer Prokop 7:34 / #
they really defy description in some ways, don't they?
Andie Christopher 7:37 / #
They really do. I mean, they're a shot of ID right into your veins.
Sarah MacLean 7:42 / #
On her website, I just went to her website because I wanted to be an actual professional tonight and have something to say about Jessa Kane. There is no information about her on her website. So whoever you are, thanks for playing! Jessa we love you.
Adriana Herrera 7:55 / #
There's a burner phone feel to it. And I love it.
Sarah MacLean 8:00 / #
Her website says Jessa Kane, and underneath it says "satisfying."
Adriana Herrera 8:09 / #
That's all you need to know.
Sarah MacLean 8:12 / #
That is a flex. She's like, I just have this is the word.
Andie Christopher 8:16 / #
Okay, so so we should all identify yourselves. Yes.
Jennifer Prokop 8:19 / #
Can I call it? Can I call the fucking group to order please? We've gotta do this thing. Okay, so Hi, I'm Jen ReadsRomance. And we are doing a Fated Mates Drunk romance podcast crossover. And we have a group of people with us. So let's have everybody introduce themselves quickly and say, if they think your commentary tonight is stellar and amazing, perhaps they would like to read your book. So tell us more about who you are.
Sarah MacLean 8:49 / #
Well, Jen, there's There are six of them. Okay, you're gonna call on them.
Jennifer Prokop 8:53 / #
Okay, I think that's best I'm gonna call on people. Ok, Alexis, you're first.
Alexis Daria 8:59 / #
I'm Alexis Daria. I write contemporary romance. My latest release is YOU HAD ME AT HOLA. and I'm in New York City. So you might hear some honking
Sarah MacLean 9:09 / #
Wait, and I also think you need to tell everybody where on the Kane spectrum you are...
Andie Christopher 9:16 / #
We need to know that.
Alexis Daria 9:19 / #
Due to the quarantine, my focus is shot so I've been having a hard time just sitting down and reading books lately, so I mostly do audiobooks. So I've only read one Jessa Kane book in full, but I've started a couple others and I have more on my Kindle.
Jennifer Prokop 9:33 / #
Jenny Nordbak, I think has done some audio for Jessica Kane and Jenny Nordbak's voice is like one sex on a stick. She's the wicked wallflowers podcast cohost, so I don't know if she's done all of them. I think she talked about what doing one maybe it's not out yet. I'm not sure so all of you who think oh, could Jessa Kane be sexier. [editorial note: Jen was wrong. Jenny recoreded a Brill Harper book on audio]
Sarah MacLean 9:56 / #
When Jenny reads it. When Miss Scarlet reads it.
Jennifer Prokop 10:01 / #
Exactly. So there you go. I can't, I don't even know if I could listen to it. I think it would, literally I'd have to like... well, you know, I probably could listen to it. it's fine.
Alexis Daria 10:09 / #
Okay, nice listening while I'm washing the dishes.
Jennifer Prokop 10:11 / #
See there you go.
Nisha Sharma 10:15 / #
Hi, everyone. This is Nisha Sharma. I'm back on the pod. My book, THE LEGAL AFFAIR came out in August and pre orders for my second YA, RADHA 7 JAI'S RECIPE FOR ROMANCE are also available. And that comes out in July.
Jennifer Prokop 10:35 / #
And where are you on the Kane scale?
Nisha Sharma 10:36 / #
I'm probably in the middle of the road. I have about, I've finished about five or six Jessa Kane books. And I have to clear my Kindle Unlimited list in order to get the rest of them. So right now it's very dramatic. I'm trying to figure out what I have to like offload in order to download more.
Sarah MacLean 11:00 / #
And this is the problem with that Kindle Unlimited list is you have to be like: am I really ever going to read that thing? Because I want to read HUSKY...
Adriana Herrera 11:08 / #
...or HEFTY.
Jennifer Prokop 11:15 / #
Again, they do let you check out Kindle unlimited books again, everybody.
Sarah MacLean 11:21 / #
But it does feel like Nisha and I are on the same page here, which is once it goes off the list, It's never coming back. Jen probably has a spreadsheet. She's been on, you've been on the phone with Amazon all day yelling at them about...
Jennifer Prokop 11:37 / #
I don't really want to talk about it. That's fine.
Sarah MacLean 11:40 / #
That's private.
Jennifer Prokop 11:42 / #
No, it just wasn't helpful. And then you just feel like you're gaslit by Amazon. And so I had let it go.
Andie Christopher 11:46 / #
It sounds less satisfying than my experience,m spending two hours on the phone with Verizon today just on hold.
Jennifer Prokop 11:54 / #
No, that's not great. At least with that, Because then you can do other things and then kind of leave when it's...
Andie Christopher 12:01 / #
no, I was I was peeing when Verizon finally picked up. So I had to run out of my bathroom.
Jennifer Prokop 12:08 / #
Of course
Andie Christopher 12:09 / #
running across the floor to get the phone.
Jennifer Prokop 12:11 / #
I know you introduced yourself, but I think you can talk again about what book you have out, and your place on the Kane spectrum.
Andie Christopher 12:17 / #
Okay, so I'm again I'm Andie J. Christopher. I am the host of the Instagram Live series probably soon to be podcast, Drunk Romance History. My latest book that I have out-- I put out two books this year, I'm very proud of that. NOT THAT KIND OF GUY came out in April. It is a workplace romance and oops, we got married. There's definitely banging, not as much as the Jessie Kane book. But there's banging and then I have a short, if you're still interested in a little holiday novella, I have a very dirty holiday novella called ALL THEY WANT FOR CHRISTMAS, which is a Snowed-in, MMF bang fest. if you're a fan of Jessa you're going to be a fan of ALL THEY WANT FOR CHRISTMAS.
Jennifer Prokop 13:03 / #
Well speaking of filthy Christmas shorts. I guess we should go to Adrianna, next.
Adriana Herrera 13:12 / #
Hi. Hello. I'm Adriana Herrera, and I write romance. So my release is HER NIGHT WITH SANTA, which is a very short, very dirty novelette about a lesbian, female Santa who hooks up with King Melchior's neice on a secret beach villa in the Caribbean.
Jennifer Prokop 13:36 / #
And a bag of toys.
Adriana Herrera 13:37 / #
And then yes, and a bag of toys.
Andie Christopher 13:41 / #
It's so hot. You guys. It is is scorchingly hot.
Adriana Herrera 13:45 / #
It is what happens with when I go into my head. When I go into my head, there are sex toys. And there's Megan Rapinoe.
Sarah MacLean 13:55 / #
I think Adriana knows this already. But this week, obviously we have we have been through Christmas in my house with the seven year old. And I told her that I read this book where the theory about Santa is that it's a family of Santas, and the current Santa is a woman. And she's like, "That's amazing. Tell me more." And I'm like, "that's all I can tell you about that."
Jennifer Prokop 14:21 / #
And where are you on the Kane scale, Adriana?
Adriana Herrera 14:26 / #
I'm pretty far into it. I just I realized that there's a few that I've missed. But I have read quite a few of them. I would say most of them. And I discovered her over Thanksgiving. It was very recent. I bought a new Kindle and got a KU subscription. And I had heard someone talk about her. Maybe it was one of you, I don't know who... I
Andie Christopher 14:51 / #
I think it was me, because I've read all of them and I just remembered I started my first one when I was still working in my office. So this was either like late February or early March,
Adriana Herrera 15:01 / #
It must have been you. I think we were chatting or something and it must have been Andie and I read one of them. And then I read a lot more of them. And I enjoy them. Like it's one of those things where some of the things, some of the elements to them are not particularly my buttons, but it's still so bananas. That I need to know what happens. So, yeah, I'm a fan.
Jennifer Prokop 15:32 / #
Fair enough. Okay, LaQuette, your're next.
LaQuette 15:34 / #
Hey, everyone, I'm LeQuette, but I write romance-- sometimes very steamy. Okay, erotic romance. My next book coming is coming out in February and it's titled Jackson. It's about a hulky, grumpy, Texas Ranger who falls in love with a sassy New Yorker who puts him in his place. It's loads of fun.
Jennifer Prokop 15:58 / #
And you are a newcomer to the Kane family. Yes?
LaQuette 16:01 / #
Yes. I've only read one at this point.
Jennifer Prokop 16:04 / #
That's okay.
Sarah MacLean 16:06 / #
Thanks, y'all.
Jennifer Prokop 16:12 / #
Tracey, what about you?
Tracey Livesay 16:14 / #
Hi, I'm Tracey Livesey. I write contemporary romance. My latest release was LIKE LOVERS DO, which came out in August and is still available. So go buy it. And just saying, I am new to Jessa Kane. During our zoom that Andie mentioned earlier, y'all couldn't stop talking about it. And so then y'all talked about doing this and I was like, I want to come. so I bought a Jessa Kane book. And here we are.
Sarah MacLean 16:57 / #
With your penis mug.
Tracey Livesay 16:58 / #
With my penis mug.
Sarah MacLean 17:00 / #
She came prepared.
Adriana Herrera 17:01 / #
I wish I had a penis mug.
Tracey Livesay 17:03 / #
I'm having a hot toddy in it.
Sarah MacLean 17:04 / #
So she came on brand
Nisha Sharma 17:06 / #
But that's not a Jessa Kane penis, mug, those are too small.
Andie Christopher 17:12 / #
No, a Jessa Kane penis mug would... go All the way around the mug
Adriana Herrera 17:16 / #
You could see it from space.
Tracey Livesay 17:20 / #
If you put them all together like an extension cocks, you know,
Adriana Herrera 17:26 / #
Extension cocks! like Christmas lights?
Tracey Livesay 17:32 / #
If one doesn't work, they all don't work, and you got to figure out which one works and then plug another one in, you know?
Jennifer Prokop 17:41 / #
Joanna Shupe.
Joanna Shupe 17:43 / #
Hi, I'm Joanna Shupe. I write historical romance. If you like Jessa's books, you might like the anthology DUKE I'D LIKE TO F, which I did with Adriana and some others. Those stories are bananas and very, very hot. On the Kane scale, I have read them all. I don't think I would have gone through 2020 without Jessa Kane. I'm just gonna put that out there. I just think they would have been a much different year for me had Jessa Kane not come into my life.
Jennifer Prokop 18:19 / #
I feel that. okay, Sarah MacLean.
Sarah MacLean 18:23 / #
I, Sarah MacLean, write romance novels and I read them and I'm on the "middle of the road" Kane scale. Here's the thing. I just looked at it, I just pulled up Amazon because like I said, all we know from Jessa's website is that she's satisfying and I can confirm it. But on Amazon there are so many of these books.
Joanna Shupe 18:42 / #
So many.
Sarah MacLean 18:43 / #
And like Nisha, I'm compulsive about my Kindle Unlimited list. So there's, I can only spare one slot at a time.
Jennifer Prokop 18:53 / #
Today, we were like, "who's going to talk about which one?" and I was like "yeah, whatever I read them all." I'm a 100 on the Kane scale and Sarah's like, "I read the one about the stepbrothers." And I was like, "that's like seven of them!"
Sarah MacLean 19:05 / #
No, no, I read the one where there are two stepbrothers! THEIR SUMMER INTERN, but then when I got on the website, there is also a HIS SUMMER INTERN, which is similar title but clearly different.
Adriana Herrera 19:21 / #
Not what you would expect.
Sarah MacLean 19:25 / #
Wait, what would I expect?
Adriana Herrera 19:29 / #
You would expect an office building? Yeah? Yeah? No.
Andie Christopher 19:36 / #
I haven't read this one.
Nisha Sharma 19:38 / #
Wait, what are we... this is like cabin in the woods.
Sarah MacLean 19:43 / #
Why would he need an intern in the cabin?
Joanna Shupe 19:46 / #
He doesn't.
Adriana Herrera 19:47 / #
He doesn't.
LaQuette 19:51 / #
You're asking for things to make sense. There's no logic.
Adriana Herrera 19:54 / #
He's a survivalist.
Sarah MacLean 19:56 / #
He's a survivalist who requires an intern? this feels Like a serious like workplace violation
LaQuette 20:04 / #
All of them are workplace violations.
Jennifer Prokop 20:13 / #
I'm gonna call it. I'm gonna run have to run this thing. Everybody we're just gonna let me do this, okay?
Jennifer Prokop 20:16 / #
LaQuette and Tracey, because otherwise it's gonna be nine people talking and Eric will be mad. He'll be like, "that wasn't fun. It's too many people talking." LaQuette and Tracy you have each read one. Which ones have you read?
Sarah MacLean 20:29 / #
Oh, and Alexis, too.
Jennifer Prokop 20:31 / #
Oka, so Alexis, too. I would like to hear about the people who are brand new to the Jessa Kane universe.
LaQuette 20:40 / #
I read HEFTY which I thought was super adorable. I will say that I didn't find it as hot as I expected considering all of the feedback I was getting about Jessica Kane. So I think I'm telling on myself a little bit with what I actually read.
Jennifer Prokop 20:57 / #
My theory actually is that if it's a Jessa Kane that's not about a stepbrother or a daddy. It just feels like regular heat.
Sarah MacLean 21:07 / #
Also HEFTY is about high school students. So let's all settle down.
Jennifer Prokop 21:11 / #
wait, no, that's the one about the model
LaQuette 21:16 / #
That was the one with the model and the bartender. I it was cute. I thought it was hilarious. His especially the hero's perspective I really enjoyed. Because it was really fun. It was really fun to get to read someone who's aware of their size, and not really apologetic for it. Right? Like, he gest caught, he's looking at her. And he's kind of questioning whether she's actually checking him out or not. And he's like, Nah, she wouldn't be after my thick ass, you know? And I was like, Dude, I love this. I love that he was so in love with his own, he was just settled in his own body, he didn't care. And the only time he ever seem to feel uncomfortable, outside of when she's teasing him, so to speak. But the only time he's ever uncomfortable is when someone, when the I guess you can't call them a villain, her. But the antagonist in the story, her best friend, is the only time that you see him feel some sort of insecurity about his size. And it's not because he feels that, but it's because someone else has that thought about him. And I think that's a very important distinction because there are a lot of romances that I've read with plus size heroines, not plus sized heroes, but there's always this thread of this person feeling like they can't be loved, or there's something wrong with them. Because they are plus size. And I love that he knew he was thick, he didn't care. And it was just and I love that she loved everything about him. And through her eyes, you get to fall in love with this man. And I think that's that's how you write a plus size person. You allow them to be comfortable in their own skin, as well as allow the person or people who love them to adore everything about them, including their 3x size.
Adriana Herrera 23:32 / #
Yeah, and I appreciate her writing plus size men because you never see never, never see plus, larger men in romance. I mean, the reality is that most people are married to larger size men. So the idea of both HEFTY and HUSKY. Like the heroine is specifically into their bodies, like they find them sexy. They find them attractive. But it's for and, and HEFTY, It's baffling to her that the other girls in the school aren't so into him because to her he's so attractive. And so
Andie Christopher 24:22 / #
I mean, what I really love about these books is how much emotion she packs it sometimes Yeah, we can pack into like 60, 70 pages. Oh yeah, like there's a lot
Adriana Herrera 24:33 / #
There's a lot of skill there like with HEFTY the the high schoolers. Like I'm like, Okay, these are high schoolers with the heat. It was a little harder for me but this romance
Sarah MacLean 24:44 / #
We should say they're both over 18
Adriana Herrera 24:46 / #
They both are over 18.
Sarah MacLean 24:49 / #
Very clear, very important that they are 18.
Nisha Sharma 24:52 / #
Do you know what I love about Jessa Kane? In these situations is that you see a lot of people try to tackle these issues. Or not even issues like these concepts in romance, and they skirt around it, because they're afraid of saying what everyone already knows. Jessa Kane is not afraid of just saying it and just putting it on the page. And I just love it because it feels so much more authentic. And so like the emotion is just so raw in it because she's just flat out just puts it all out there and I love that.
Joanna Shupe 25:28 / #
There's no fear. Of any topic, at any level. Any subject, any kink, no fear.
Adriana Herrera 25:36 / #
Yeah, and I think it's, and I wonder how how it is for her to write those books. Because it feels to me like I was really saying this about the novelette that I wrote, HER NIGHT WITH SANTA, was everything that is, I was like, here are my ID-list things. So let me just write it. And that just poured out of me because it was so satisfying and delicious for me to write about it. Because this stuff I love to read. And I find super hot. So I and I think for me, even the books that don't quite work for me in terms of the kinks. I still enjoy them because I can tell the enjoyment that was happening when those stories were being written.
Sarah MacLean 26:16 / #
Yeah, it doesn't feel the same way as I mean, we should say for those of you who've never read Jesse Kane, like these are shorts.
Jennifer Prokop 26:23 / #
They are! Oh, yeah.
Adriana Herrera 26:26 / #
It's a one hour read.
Sarah MacLean 26:28 / #
Yeah, exactly. And so you can really tear through them. I mean, I read like seven and a night one night. But the what's interesting about that is that it really does feel like she just sits-- I wonder, I mean, I wonder how long she actually, I wonder if it's just a one sitting story because it does sort of feel like she just opens up a vein and, there now you've got this.
Jennifer Prokop 26:53 / #
There's not a lot of attention to plot. It is really all about like emotions and about
Sarah MacLean 26:58 / #
Well the plot is twisty turny like this, the the stepbrother one. THEIR SUMMER INTERN, Oh, okay. You guys.
Jennifer Prokop 27:09 / #
Yeah, we talked about the cute stuff. No, I think we're like: yeah, it's kind of normal. Then You have THEIR SUMMER INTERN.
Sarah MacLean 27:17 / #
The Plot of THEIR SUMMER INTERN is this woman, that the heroine-- all her heroines, I think, somebody, Joanna and Jen, correct me if I'm wrong, but her heroines are always very young, right?
Sarah MacLean 27:29 / #
I they all get bred by the end.
Adriana Herrera 27:31 / #
Usually virgin, enthusiastically bred.
Jennifer Prokop 27:37 / #
You know what, she does do some virgin heroes, too
Sarah MacLean 27:43 / #
These two heroes are not virgins. Just to be clear.
LaQuette 27:47 / #
What I what I appreciated about the about HUSKY anyway, was that you have this hero who is and in most of our books, we read these books where the hero is so virile, and, you know, and his stamina is ridiculous. And this guy is just like, Look, I'm not gonna make it. It's not gonna happen. This is gonna be a 1-2-3 pump kind of situation. And I thought that was so refreshing that they weren't having this hour long love fest and that it was just quick and dirty. And I thought it was so hilarious that he was like, "fuck it. You can laugh at me later. But for the rest of my life, I'm going to hold on to this scene where I got to be with you. It doesn't matter that I only lasted three seconds."
Andie Christopher 28:41 / #
He made up for it like with the coat on the boardwalk.
LaQuette 28:48 / #
Still, it was great to read that because I think so often, we get caught up in the fantasy of the romance, of sex. And we don't really portray it always in a realistic fashion. Because, you know...
Nisha Sharma 29:05 / #
Let me tell you, that is not the typical Jessa Kane, the ones that I read it was like, Oh, this is what you have to deal with when you're sitting on a nine inch cock.
Sarah MacLean 29:22 / #
That's not realistic?
Sarah MacLean 29:27 / #
They're all the size of a two liter bottle of Coke.
Adriana Herrera 29:33 / #
Yes, I mean, they are for breeding. Um, so one thing I would say is there's this very raw. And again, it's a slice of America that sometimes, it's a little jarring for me as a naturalized citizen of the United States. I think... Like what? What always gets me about it, I was re-reading PREACHER MAN this afternoon because Andie mentioned it
Andie Christopher 30:09 / #
It's my favorite, it's my first
Adriana Herrera 30:12 / #
And I'm like you know
Sarah MacLean 30:13 / #
I'm so surprised by that, by the way Andie, definitely that's your Id.
Jennifer Prokop 30:17 / #
I'm pretty sure I told Joanna about Jessa Kane because I really... I remember Joanna being like... THE MOBSTER'S MASSEUSE? I'm in!
Joanna Shupe 30:25 / #
I'll be right back in two hours.
Sarah MacLean 30:30 / #
Isnt' PREACHER MAN , the one where he watches her through the window?
Andie Christopher 30:34 / #
Oh, it's five different books.
Sarah MacLean 30:38 / #
She masturbate during his sermon, too?
Andie Christopher 30:41 / #
She masturbates while he watches her through the window. And he masturbates outside.
Sarah MacLean 30:47 / #
And she's wearing like a white nightgown the whole time?
Andie Christopher 30:53 / #
A slip to get baptized. That's later she..
Adriana Herrera 30:57 / #
That's before we find out he's actually a mafia assassin. Her mom hires him to give her an exorcism
Andie Christopher 31:10 / #
on the edge of the woods in her Mississippi town.
Sarah MacLean 31:12 / #
I forgot about the exorcism,
Adriana Herrera 31:16 / #
There's an exorcism
Andie Christopher 31:18 / #
that he does with his mouth on her pussy.
Adriana Herrera 31:22 / #
Exercises that right out of her
Sarah MacLean 31:25 / #
I mean, they take the finger every one.
Adriana Herrera 31:33 / #
Completely up. I mean, I think that's what I find very, I think that's why I connect and I don't read a lot of like bananas bonkers super taboo stuff. I really don't. But first of all, I think it's because it's that quick shot, it's so short, I don't need to read 40 different kidnappings. You know, like, there's one.
Nisha Sharma 32:01 / #
That's my entire Kindle! Like all the kidnappings, me and Joanna, we're like, oh, did you read this?
Adriana Herrera 32:12 / #
It's not my thing! But if it's one short one, I can handle it.
Sarah MacLean 32:17 / #
But if it's a kidnapping on top of an exorcism on top of stepbrothers, then you're like, Okay!
Adriana Herrera 32:22 / #
But it's moving. It's moving. The momentum is moving.
Jennifer Prokop 32:29 / #
I really want to hear from Tracy and Alexis, who just look disturbed by all of it.
Jennifer Prokop 32:36 / #
Tracy, what did you read?
Joanna Shupe 32:40 / #
Tracey is like, is it too late to back out?
Sarah MacLean 32:47 / #
Tracey came With a cock mug, it's fine. She can handle that.
Tracey Livesay 32:53 / #
Um, I've read SACRIFICED TO THE BEAST.
Andie Christopher 32:57 / #
Oh, that's such a good one.
Tracey Livesay 33:02 / #
Okay. So I'm going to start off despite my facial expressions by saying like, LaQuette, it was not, It was a little tame for me. And that might be telling about me, but it was a little tame for my reading. And I wondered if, as she was writing, she delved deeper into her Id. I wonder if that came before the preacher book because I want to read that, or the Intern book. Like, I want to read that. So I don't know if that was like, progression.
Jennifer Prokop 33:38 / #
Ok, well I have a theory. Do you want to hear my theory about this? Yeah, yeah. Those of us that are that are Jessa Kane One Hundreds would like to bring people on board to the Jessa Kane train, but you can't start them with THEIR SUMMER INTERN, you have some that are like kind of normal-ish. And so that, okay, the beauty and the beast one it's fine, right?
Tracey Livesay 33:59 / #
I did I read something called SACRIFICED TO THE BEAST. So I don't know, like, what kind of on-roading do you like?
Adriana Herrera 34:09 / #
Yeah, the one with HIS SUMMER INTERN, with the survivalist on the cabin.
Tracey Livesay 34:15 / #
Okay, so SACRIFICED TO THE BEAST was beauty in the beast. And it starts off with her father and the villagers pretty much taking her to the forest to be sacrificed to the beast. And I have to admit that throughout, as I was reading the story, the soundtrack to the Disney Beauty the Beast kept playing in my head. So I kept imagining the villagers like: "he will make off with your children," with singing and torches and stuff. That was just that was just my mind. Um, and so they so apparently in the village, This is modern day, but it goes back and forth between modern day and feeling like the 1950s, I don't know. But anyway, so the village animals have been slaughtered. And so they have had this happen before and they say, it's a beast that lives in the woods. And so to appease the beast, so he won't slaughter their animals.
Adriana Herrera 35:23 / #
They need human sacrifice.
Sarah MacLean 35:27 / #
This is 2020 like modern, you're like... we need to sacrifice a virgin
Adriana Herrera 35:35 / #
We need to sacrifice the virgin.
Tracey Livesay 35:41 / #
She's the only one...
Tracey Livesay 35:42 / #
The only virgin?
Nisha Sharma 35:46 / #
If I was in that town, I'd be getting like laid in the eighth grade just to make sure that I wouldn't be...
Adriana Herrera 35:59 / #
I think maybe her dad gives her away. I think her dad is okay with it.
Tracey Livesay 36:04 / #
the entire village! He's like, yes.
Sarah MacLean 36:07 / #
So on the Id list, the Jesse Kane Id list is: dads who are like: "fuck off. I don't care."
LaQuette 36:12 / #
I think that's on everyone's Id list.
Tracey Livesay 36:16 / #
They tie her to a tree and leave her and, and then the beast is silhouetted against the night and he roars and it's very scary. And I'm thinking, "oh my god, is it like an actual beast?" Which I don't know! And it was not an actual beast. It was just a big man. He's like seven feet tall. Apparently, he's very hairy, he might need a haircut and a shave, but they don't do that in the book.
Tracey Livesay 36:54 / #
And, um, and so yeah, they have sex.
Sarah MacLean 36:58 / #
So she just had sex with this hairy beastie dude.
Tracey Livesay 37:01 / #
Yeah, she puts up a you know, she goes against him for the evening. But then the next day they just do it.
Andie Christopher 37:09 / #
Doesn't he go down on her first? isn't that kind of sweet?
Adriana Herrera 37:15 / #
He doens't really know, he's like: I feel like this would be nice for her.
Tracey Livesay 37:24 / #
he was very sweet. Very nice and sweet. He was not beast-like at all. He's very nice, sweet, and he fell in love with her and her long blonde hair. And so he was very sweet and as tender with the virgin as you could be when you have a 12 inch. 12 inch!
LaQuette 37:49 / #
Yeah, I'm right with you, and I appreciate
Sarah MacLean 37:51 / #
For the people who are just listening to the podcast, Tracy just pulled out a ruler, as though she had come prepared for this.
Tracey Livesay 38:04 / #
Like the subway footlong, and she's a virgin.
Adriana Herrera 38:10 / #
a foot Long
Jennifer Prokop 38:16 / #
so you enjoyed it but not as dirty as you liked. Okay.
Tracey Livesay 38:19 / #
Yes, yes,
Tracey Livesay 38:23 / #
They will be a scene, because there was a scene where she like-- I shouldn't be too loud, my kids are up-- but there was a scene where she goes down on him in front of these like evil guys.
Jennifer Prokop 38:35 / #
There is a voyuerism angle in a lot of them
Sarah MacLean 38:40 / #
there's another one like that and somebody I can't remember later one but it's it's in a cabin and he makes her dad watch it too. Yeah
Nisha Sharma 38:54 / #
And he puts her on the table.
Sarah MacLean 38:56 / #
And LaQuette is like, now what?
Adriana Herrera 38:59 / #
Which one is that one?
LaQuette 39:04 / #
Tell me which one that one is, because I cannot read that.
Sarah MacLean 39:07 / #
which one is that one?
Nisha Sharma 39:08 / #
It's called THE FIGHTER'S PRIZE and he races in to save her because the dad wanted to marry her off to this other dude. And she's like, "no I'm with you!" and he's like "well then prove it" and basically does her on the table, is like watch me claim this woman.
Adriana Herrera 39:25 / #
Okay, first of all, I just want to premise this by saying that her dad was total trash and sold her
LaQuette 39:31 / #
I don't care!
Sarah MacLean 39:37 / #
There's also one where the cabin one.
Andie Christopher 39:40 / #
There's also when where, shit, where the heroine gets auctioned off because she went to a party with her friends
Joanna Shupe 39:47 / #
SUDDENLY HIS! SUDDENLY HIS!
Nisha Sharma 39:49 / #
I love SUDDENLY HIS! that one was so good.
Joanna Shupe 39:55 / #
That one doesn't leave my Kindle. I don't ever return that one, that one is a perma-lend.
Sarah MacLean 40:07 / #
isn't there one more there in a cabin? And the he brings in a priest to watch?
Jennifer Prokop 40:12 / #
Okay, that one, listen is the one with Alexa Riley so it is no longer available on KU. You have to get that one on iBooks. Ask me how I know. it's like the Russian... Wait, I'd have to look at up [TAKEN BY THE RUSSIAN.]
Joanna Shupe 40:29 / #
Wait , I haven't read that one.
Sarah MacLean 40:30 / #
Oh Joanna get going. Joanna has to go
Jennifer Prokop 40:33 / #
In the middle of the wedding ceremony, She's whispering dirty stuff to him. And he basically starts fucking her while the priest is marrying them. And he says to her, he says to the priest, he says, make her my wife while I make her a mother.
Sarah MacLean 40:49 / #
Yeah. That is some weird shit.
Sarah MacLean 41:07 / #
Nisha is like, get it in my veins. Here's the thing, everybody that listens to the podcast knows that all I care about is when writers do like crazy, when they're like, I'm just gonna do it. We're just gonna see if this works. I love it. I will always buy your next book if you try that? That is some weird shit.
Adriana Herrera 41:26 / #
That is some weird stuff.
Alexis Daria 41:28 / #
What if we cross referenced all of the tropes? Like this is the one that has voyeurism in it and we can reference, okay, these are the five that have that and these are the ones that involve kidnapping.
Sarah MacLean 41:42 / #
Yes, Alexis, you're in charge now
Alexis Daria 41:46 / #
Some are gonna hit your buttons.
Adriana Herrera 41:52 / #
Now there's a lot of recurring themes in her in her stories, I mean, "enthusiastically bred" is in almost every one, Hello.
Sarah MacLean 42:01 / #
"I'm gonna put a baby in you" is like...
Andie Christopher 42:04 / #
or three in her! and I'm like, that can't be comfortable.
Sarah MacLean 42:07 / #
And then there's the firemen one where its, "I wonder which one of us is going to be the dad." And it's like, that feels weird.
Adriana Herrera 42:15 / #
that's weird.
Tracey Livesay 42:18 / #
What was that one called?
Jennifer Prokop 42:19 / #
And also in THE FARMER'S DAUGHTER and also THEIR SUMMER INTERN, I think has that "who's gonna be the father since we're both fucking her."
Sarah MacLean 42:28 / #
It's HER 2 PROTECTORS, number two, Her 2 protectors.
Adriana Herrera 42:32 / #
Her 2 protectors, So there's two possibilities.
Joanna Shupe 42:37 / #
He's obsessed with the heroine from the jump.
Alexis Daria 42:40 / #
The one that I read...
Adriana Herrera 42:41 / #
It's Alexis's turn. Eric is gonna have so much fun with this. Sorry, Eric.
Alexis Daria 42:50 / #
So I read QUEEN SIZED, which is technically like, maybe a fantasy romance.
Adriana Herrera 42:59 / #
It should be time travel
Alexis Daria 43:00 / #
Medieval times-y era in like, a place that is not a real place except people say Jesus Christ. Yeah, the guy's like "Jesus Christ. She's so hot."
Sarah MacLean 43:18 / #
it's not actual Jesus Christ?
Alexis Daria 43:24 / #
I mean, this book could be set on a reality show, it could be set at a Ren faire. Who knows where?
Adriana Herrera 43:32 / #
I've said this before, he should have been, it should have been time travel. He should have been a bouncer from Queens who goes through a portal and ends up in the medieval times.
Alexis Daria 43:43 / #
Yeah, and he becomes the king of this, like one kingdom, that's
Sarah MacLean 43:46 / #
in New Jersey,
Adriana Herrera 43:48 / #
in Hollis, Queens.
Alexis Daria 43:51 / #
They're having this like event between the two kingdoms called the joining, which is kind of what it sounds like. Celebrating the peace or something like that. But a lot of people end up hooking up and, you know, going off with each other and getting married after joining.
Tracey Livesay 44:07 / #
is the orgy on the page? is the orgy on the page?
Alexis Daria 44:12 / #
I know. I also felt like it was a little
Sarah MacLean 44:15 / #
Tracey's like, I got it.
Alexis Daria 44:17 / #
...other things that I've read or what I had been led to believe. But also the heroine is a virgin and she's trying to stay a virgin throughout the story because she is a farmer and she's got two sisters. She has to take care of them and she's like, I need a husband. We haven't had good crops last two years, and I need to marry a guy with money so that my sisters can be provided for
Sarah MacLean 44:39 / #
That's just sensible.
Alexis Daria 44:43 / #
And the king, he's like this giant warrior looking guy, of course. And he's walking with his friend and his friend is like, "you know, you really should think about getting a wife and if you ever want to talk about your traumic childhood, I'm here for you." And he's like, "No, I don't want to talk about my feelings. And I definitely don't want a wife. I'm so not into that--- Oh my God, Who is she?" And he's just been saying all the reasons why he doesn't want anything. And then he's like, "Oh my God, Who is she? I love her." So he goes over to her, and she tells him to drop dead. And he
LaQuette 45:22 / #
Does she know he's the king?
Alexis Daria 45:23 / #
So hilarious.
Jennifer Prokop 45:25 / #
She doesn't know, he just thinks he's too much for her, right?
Alexis Daria 45:29 / #
No, She's just, she doesn't know who he is, for one thing,
Jennifer Prokop 45:34 / #
Random man, I have things to do right now! Right?
Alexis Daria 45:37 / #
I'm here to find a husband. And I'm not gonna mess around with you going for a walk by the water. Sure. I know what that means. And she finds out he's the king and she's still just kind of like, Alright, fine, I'll go with you. And she's very much. He's like, "I don't want a wife. You're gonna be my mistress." And she's like, "Hell no, I'm not gonna be your mistress." But then he goes down on her and she goes down on him, like over in a cave. And then she's like, I gotta find a husband.
Adriana Herrera 46:10 / #
as you do!
Tracey Livesay 46:10 / #
it's compromising they're compromising already. It's...
Adriana Herrera 46:14 / #
....meeting halfway.
Tracey Livesay 46:17 / #
Yeah, it'll work.
Sarah MacLean 46:19 / #
So what I love about this is she's like, Alright, they have to have sex where they're gonna have sex. There must be a cave nearby
Alexis Daria 46:24 / #
A cave! They're like...
Sarah MacLean 46:25 / #
In my lifetime, I have never stumbled upon a cave
Adriana Herrera 46:33 / #
Everybody knows medieval times are full or caves, okay.
Alexis Daria 46:37 / #
The thing about this book was how how funny it was. So she tells him at one point like, well, Your Majesty, it's like you're between a loch and a hard place because you're there walking along the line. I laughed out loud.
Sarah MacLean 46:50 / #
She's funny. That's crazy. It was very funny. these books are great. They're very well written, she's a good writer.
Alexis Daria 47:00 / #
The first third was kind of out there. Like with setting everything up. There's not a ton of world building. But I think that if you like things like Reign or A Knight's Tale or stuff like that, where it's kind of old timey but not completely. You would like this.
Sarah MacLean 47:18 / #
You like men in armor.
Jennifer Prokop 47:20 / #
On Heaving Bosoms, they call it like England times. This world building is like medieval times....
Adriana Herrera 47:27 / #
they're wearing chain link and...
Sarah MacLean 47:29 / #
somebody eating a turkey leg with just their teeth.
Alexis Daria 47:35 / #
So they have a couple of these competitions for the women to compete so that the men can pick a wife.
Sarah MacLean 47:44 / #
And what do they have to do?
Alexis Daria 47:45 / #
So the first one is a pie pie baking competition. And she's like, I can't believe I have to make this fucking pie for these men. But it's a good ass pie. I was thinking, "This woman has better things to do than making a pie. She's busy." Her pie is next to this other lady's, who clearly needs help and is in more dire straits than she is. And her pie sucks. So she swaps her pie. And he notices that, he's like, "Oh my god, she's amazing." And then the other thing is carrying water, and she helps the woman carry the water. So she's very good-hearted. But from there on, It's just the emotions really get you. She's got these two younger sisters. And the king starts to really think they're adorable, too. And she's very concerned about what values she's showing her sisters, which is why she won't be his mistress. She's like: not that there's anything wrong with that. But that's not what I'm trying to do.
Jennifer Prokop 48:41 / #
One of the things that's really interesting about these books is in a typical romance setup, there's the seeds of misunderstanding are sown, And then the hero doesn't believe the heroine, right? But in these books, the hero always is like, "she would never fucking do that. So something else must be going on." Like, there's not just like, instant love, but there's also instant trust. And so there's one for example where I think it's called, Oh, THE PERFECT GIFT, where her sisters are like, "you have to go catch this really rich man and trap him." And she is like, "but I'm in love with him." Right? She falls in love with him. And he, and then they're texting her like, "have you done it yet?" And, and she is so freaked out. She's like, "I'm going to go see my sisters and tell them that I'm not going to do this." And he finds the phone with these really incriminating texts. And he's like, instantly like, MMMM, And he's like, "wait, no, she would never do this." Right. And so then he goes down and to prove his love to her, He fucks her in front of the sisters.
Adriana Herrera 49:49 / #
Yeah, as you do.
Sarah MacLean 49:52 / #
very reasonable.
Nisha Sharma 49:54 / #
are these young children?
Adriana Herrera 49:57 / #
Okay, no.
Andie Christopher 49:57 / #
they are evil olders sisters
LaQuette 50:10 / #
I have brothers and sisters this is not somthing that would ever happen.
Alexis Daria 50:15 / #
"So of course she doesn't want to be my mistress. Yeah, like, how could I have just asked her out right like that, that was so rude of me" So he goes, and he's like, I had a terrible childhood. And she's like, I feel so bad for you someday you're gonna find a woman you can really love without that. And then she leaves, because she's still not going to be his mistress. I would say the first third was very funny and a little bit silly. But then after that, I was just completely hooked in the story, because all of the emotional beats are there.
Sarah MacLean 50:46 / #
This is the crazy thing. Yeah, this is the wild thing about these books is, so HER 2, Her number 2 PROTECTORS, which is about a girl whose father was in the mafia, and her house gets set on fire, and she's asleep and like half naked asleep, and in come two brawny firemen who collect her and they're together when they see her. So they see her at the exact same time, right?
Sarah MacLean 51:21 / #
Exactly LaQuette, because we know that that's how it works.
Adriana Herrera 51:27 / #
It's like there's an imprinting that happened
Sarah MacLean 51:30 / #
It's fated mates. Every one of these books,
Nisha Sharma 51:33 / #
every single one of them.
Sarah MacLean 51:35 / #
And so the two of them [HER 2 PROTECTORS] So one carries her while the other one axes his way out of the burning building. And then they're like-- and the dad's dying. And he's like, "you got to take care of her." And they're like, yes. And so they just immediately take her to one of their houses and then all three of them are living together. And there's some kind of, swords do not cross in this, or the other one, well because they're brothers. I read both of the menages
Jennifer Prokop 52:02 / #
I will say, though, it is highly implied in the one with the actual real brothers [SUDDENLY THIERS] and then the step sister that they're crossing off page.
Sarah MacLean 52:13 / #
Oh, boy.
Jennifer Prokop 52:18 / #
it was too much for me!
Sarah MacLean 52:23 / #
No, but in this firemen one. So here's the thing, so I'm reading it and I'm like, Okay, cool. And then there's a little bit of, I wish she was mine alone. I wish she was mine alone Alpha douchebaggery. but then she's like, I need you both, You both give me different things. And then the older one is like, "I'll be your daddy and he could be your brother." And I'm like, "Oh, what?!" I was not prepared for this by the group! , but I'm gonna read the rest of it. I don't even know Myself.
Adriana Herrera 52:52 / #
That's me like 89% of the time reading these stories. I'm like, this is not okay. But I will continue to read this.
Jennifer Prokop 53:01 / #
Right? Yeah, sure. So
Andie Christopher 53:03 / #
we're talking about starter Jessa Kanes. There is one series that I think it's A PINCH OF SUGAR, which is a program and they're super filthy. When they're not.
Jennifer Prokop 53:20 / #
There's, um, they're all strangers to each other.
Andie Christopher 53:25 / #
They're all strangers. They see each other.
Adriana Herrera 53:34 / #
The series is called Lights, camera, Instalove.
Sarah MacLean 53:38 / #
I'm getting them.
Jennifer Prokop 53:40 / #
There you go. clear up some room in Kindle Unlimited.
Sarah MacLean 53:42 / #
Joanna? What about you.
Joanna Shupe 53:48 / #
So I think my, my favorite one, my gateway was THE MOBSTER'S MASSEUSE which I know is
Nisha Sharma 53:56 / #
don't be touching my book, Joanna.
Sarah MacLean 53:58 / #
It's a weird title.
Joanna Shupe 54:01 / #
What I love is like every title is exactly what You get. The titles are spot on. The covers are spot on. I also love that. When you read it... I will read a description of a Jessa Kane book and I'll be like, is that really? Is that for me? And then I'll start reading it. And there's another four tropes in there that are me that were not in the description. It's like she has a trope wheel in her writing room and she spins it and sees what it lands on. She's like "billionaire," done. Spin again. "Exhibitionism," spin it again, "daddy kink," done, spin it, done. And it works! So like, SUDDENLY HIS is my favorite, which is the one where she goes out with her girlfriends. They take her to a sex auction. Then they find out she's a virgin and she can't leave. So she's got to sell her virginity because she needs the money. And guess what? There's a billionaire who's secretly in love with her and he shows up and buys her, and they have to have sex in front of his buyer.
Andie Christopher 55:10 / #
His butler calls him because he's been following her.
Sarah MacLean 55:14 / #
Butler?.
Adriana Herrera 55:15 / #
Saturday night in Manhattan.
Joanna Shupe 55:17 / #
It's a PI. It's a private investigator that's trailing her. He's like, Hey, you got to get over here but
Sarah MacLean 55:22 / #
I'd rather it was a butler, honestly.
LaQuette 55:28 / #
Just thinking it's like Albert calling Bruce Wayne.
Joanna Shupe 55:35 / #
It's his Man, his man is there.
Andie Christopher 55:41 / #
Like, it could be Batman fanfic.We don't know.
Adriana Herrera 55:45 / #
It could it be his consigliere because it couldn't be a mafia boss. It doesn't matter.
Alexis Daria 55:57 / #
You know what I though, if she rewrote the same story on reality show or at a Ren faire? I would still read it both ways.
Joanna Shupe 56:04 / #
Yeah, absolutely.
Adriana Herrera 56:06 / #
Yeah, QUEEN SIZE is time travel. Tessa, If you're watching this. Give me the time travel.
Sarah MacLean 56:16 / #
Time travel! She just needs to add time travel to the trope wheel.
LaQuette 56:21 / #
I want An alien
Sarah MacLean 56:23 / #
[laughs] an alien.
Jennifer Prokop 56:24 / #
Alien seems destined for the trope wheel? Oh, wait, Nisha, you want to talk about THE MOBSTER'S MASSEUSE? Since it was brought up?
Nisha Sharma 56:32 / #
I took notes.
Adriana Herrera 56:34 / #
Of course you did?
Andie Christopher 56:38 / #
We know you. Of course you took notes. We love it.
Sarah MacLean 56:41 / #
Nisha's in charge always
Nisha Sharma 56:42 / #
I love THE MOBSTER'S MASSEUSE because it exactly exactly speaks to my Id. First of all, yes, there's obviously mafia involved. But it's, the the hero goes in for a massage. That his best friend got him for his birthday. And he has no intention of taking the massage. He's like, oh, she'll just play on her phone in the corner. And I'll sit in the corner and just work and we'll pretend that we got it because I would never turn my back to the door or be vulnerable. I can never be vulnerable. I love that. So he sees her, Fated Mates instant love. And he's like, will you grant me the honor of massaging you?
LaQuette 57:29 / #
from the waist down.
Sarah MacLean 57:33 / #
It's just a service. It's him being magnanimous and wanting her to have pleasure. That's it has nothing to do with him. Yeah.
Nisha Sharma 57:41 / #
He gives her, he's like, I'll give you whatever money you want. And she's like, okay,
Andie Christopher 57:47 / #
To massage her!
Alexis Daria 57:50 / #
And a massage.
Nisha Sharma 57:51 / #
Wait, what?.
Alexis Daria 57:52 / #
She's getting money and a massage?
Nisha Sharma 57:54 / #
She's getting money and a massage... on her vagina.
Tracey Livesay 58:00 / #
that's a Massage
Nisha Sharma 58:01 / #
It is obviously orgasmic and she's a virgin. And she's like, "if this is what I've been missing, and you know, obviously, yes, let's go all the way." And fabulous because Jessa Kane, she writes in the story this one line that I kind of think epitomizes a lot of the way that she uses language across all of her books, which is "I say the things that I say to shock her into remembering me forever." And it's like, Okay, well that makes sense to me. Because the way that Jessa Kane uses language in a lot of these high tension / high passion scenes is very much shock value and I 100% remember it. It's like, she calls a vagina a gash multiple times. And it's like, what?
Adriana Herrera 59:02 / #
it's very primal.
Jennifer Prokop 59:03 / #
Yeah, well.
Nisha Sharma 59:05 / #
I'm like, Oh, this is, well hello. And it's great. And then the best part about THE MOBSTER'S MASSEUSE is okay, instant love. Then of course she's in danger. And then he goes to her. He's like, ride my-- there's like a bunch of stuff that happens, romance things happen-- And then there's a scene towards the end where they've declared their love for each other. And he's like, "ride me. I just killed someone for you." And she's totally turned on by it. And like, just score and she's like, "yes, you killed someone for me. I'm all about it." And then he's like "you have to call me your king." And she's like, "yep I'm on it. Yes." calling you King. And he's like, "I'm going to fill you up with your your tummy's favorite juice."
Tracey Livesay 1:00:03 / #
No, thank you.
Sarah MacLean 1:00:07 / #
Wait! Actually the word "Tummy."
Nisha Sharma 1:00:11 / #
I have to do a search for it.
Jennifer Prokop 1:00:13 / #
Oh my god,
Adriana Herrera 1:00:14 / #
But you know what? I was thinking yesterday when I was trying to explain to my spouse Jessa Kane. I was like, imagine if 80s movies had just a lot of sex. Like imagine Grease with a ton of boning. Shit is happening, a crazy ass thing is happening, like there's a car coming down from the sky. Oh, there's Frankie Valli. And then there's...
Nisha Sharma 1:00:38 / #
She actually uses the word "Tummy" like I highlighted it. It's "eat it all up. There you go gorgeous. Take it down. Let it work its magic in your tummy."
Tracey Livesay 1:00:50 / #
That's not how it works.
Nisha Sharma 1:00:57 / #
at the end, the last line of the book, in the epilogue is she tells him "breed me, my king."
Adriana Herrera 1:01:06 / #
But hey, let's be honest. What is this be exactly, Let's say, how Sonny Corleone would be with his mistress?
Adriana Herrera 1:01:17 / #
This is literally what Sonny...
LaQuette 1:01:22 / #
He would have more finesse.
Adriana Herrera 1:01:26 / #
No. Sonny would!?
LaQuette 1:01:30 / #
He was very crude, but he was he wasn't that corny is what I'm saying.
Sarah MacLean 1:01:35 / #
He would never say "tummy." Sonny Corleone would not say tummy.
Adriana Herrera 1:01:40 / #
He would not say "tummy." that would be Fredo.
LaQuette 1:01:48 / #
Fredo, yes.
Adriana Herrera 1:01:49 / #
Oh, okay. Great. This is Fredo's story.
Jennifer Prokop 1:01:52 / #
I will say, if you are ever are unsure of how to define "daddy" for someone Jessa Kane has done it for us in the book HIS PRIZE PUPIL. I literally, when I read this, and I was like, "I'm gonna go ahead and highlight this because if I ever need to describe to anybody I will." So she's of course about to sell her virginity, same dealeo, right? She goes into this room, and the madam is giving her essentially a crash course in Daddy, and she is like, what is this gonna mean? And so Estelle, that's the madam says, "Look dear. I don't have time for a long psychology lesson. So here's the condensed version. A father is an accountant in a sweater vest who yawns through her dance recitals. A daddy pulls your hair, fucks you on your hands and knees, then buys you a pretty necklace. There's a difference. You're allowed to enjoy it."
Sarah MacLean 1:02:42 / #
That's a great line.
Andie Christopher 1:02:43 / #
I'm addending that to the definition of stern brunch Daddy, a Daddy who buys your brunch? And then does the rest of that. Yeah.
Jennifer Prokop 1:02:58 / #
But I was like, there it is, right there. I mean, so this is like, someone who is very in touch with exactly what it is. Like when we, especially those tropes because there really is a core story here. Or there's several of them, I think, but a lot of it is just like, like the Fated Mates instant lust. Like we will instantly both fall in love with each other. Nothing will stand in our way
Sarah MacLean 1:03:25 / #
I have questions about MY HUSBAND, MY STALKER, which I have not read
Andie Christopher 1:03:31 / #
I read that.
Sarah MacLean 1:03:31 / #
Largely because the title freaks me out.
Joanna Shupe 1:03:35 / #
Yeah, but on Amazon It has the most reviews of any of her books, that is the most highly reviewed.
Sarah MacLean 1:03:44 / #
So tell me about it, Joanne Shupe.
Jennifer Prokop 1:03:53 / #
Okay, this one, again, I was like, I'm gonna read them all. Because I know that even if I'm like, "there's no fucking way!" I'm gonna be like, "Alright, it was fine." He is, he saw her on TV, I think. And instantly Of course, fell in love with her.
Sarah MacLean 1:04:08 / #
Yep.
Jennifer Prokop 1:04:09 / #
And what is... then he essentially finds a way to essentially meet her. And marry, He meets her and marries her.
Joanna Shupe 1:04:19 / #
He tells her he's an insurance salesman or something.
Jennifer Prokop 1:04:22 / #
Yeah, exactly. And, and really, he's a hitman, I think right? And so I was like, he's a cop?
Adriana Herrera 1:04:28 / #
That was a TV show in the 80s.
Sarah MacLean 1:04:31 / #
They are always also a hitman. All of them are also a hitman.
Jennifer Prokop 1:04:35 / #
That's it. This woman [Jessa Kane] is definitely my age, these 80s tropes are really in their heart. Yes. So essentially, he dates her under this assumed identity and marries her. And she doesn't realize that he essentially kind of stalked her, like he fell in love with her from afar. And then when she goes off to work and does her things during the day if he does not have any assassinations planned, he will instead follow her around and keep an eye on her.
Adriana Herrera 1:05:17 / #
Can we just, I wish that the people listening could see Jen face, because she's got her full on middle school teacher. Right now as she's talking about this Hitman stalker.
Jennifer Prokop 1:05:31 / #
I know, I'm like and then the symbolism is...
Sarah MacLean 1:05:35 / #
she's like animals are symbols.
Jennifer Prokop 1:05:36 / #
All animals are gonna fall in love with you.
Adriana Herrera 1:05:41 / #
I would really like to talk about THE KINGPIN'S WEAKNESS.
Jennifer Prokop 1:05:48 / #
Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 1:05:49 / #
Look at Nisha! Yeah!
Joanna Shupe 1:05:51 / #
that's a good one.
Jennifer Prokop 1:05:53 / #
My favorites.
Adriana Herrera 1:05:55 / #
I think it's the one that's, other than HEFTY, which I've discussed and I enjoyed very much and that was really sweet. THE KINGPIN'S WEAKNESS was so mind blowing to me, because it is so it's like, okay: you're telling me he's a kingpin, but you're presenting me with an angsty cinnamon roll. That's like, that's what I'm getting. You can tell me he's the greatest criminal mind in modern time.
Sarah MacLean 1:06:30 / #
Wait, can we talk about his name, which is Easton Brawn with a W?
Adriana Herrera 1:06:36 / #
Easter Brawn
Sarah MacLean 1:06:39 / #
Because name is destiny.
Adriana Herrera 1:06:39 / #
Who thinks of himself as the greatest criminal mind in modern history. And he is at the MMA fight in his box. I personally have never been to an MMA fight, so I don't know if they have VIP boxes, I assume they do. So he sees her, then asks his man to bring her up to him, which you know, checks out very 80s, very 80s, very 80s. I imagine him in a shiny gray suit. So they bring her up to him. And then immediately, you know, he wants her but she's,
Nisha Sharma 1:07:22 / #
you have to start with her passing out.
Adriana Herrera 1:07:26 / #
she passes out when she realizes it's him because everybody knows Easton is the greatest criminal mind in modern history. She passes out.
Jennifer Prokop 1:07:37 / #
She read a profile of him from New York magazine or something.
Adriana Herrera 1:07:40 / #
She passes out?
Sarah MacLean 1:07:41 / #
Wait, she read a profile of him.
Adriana Herrera 1:07:44 / #
Everybody knows. Everybody knows him.
Sarah MacLean 1:07:47 / #
I don't know, Jen. It all feels plausible.
Adriana Herrera 1:07:50 / #
He's from the underworld, but everybody knows him. Everybody knows about him. and he's so handsome too. Like, he should not be this... anyway. So she goes up, she passes out then you know he wants to fuck her of course. But then she tells him she's a virgin. So he was like, Well, let me take you out on a quick date first.
Sarah MacLean 1:08:14 / #
Somebody should buy you dinner.
Adriana Herrera 1:08:16 / #
I don't want to take your flower without buying you dinner. So they go and they get in the car.
Sarah MacLean 1:08:22 / #
What a gentleman!
Andie Christopher 1:08:24 / #
Do they unshell the lobster while they're still on the way to the restaurant?
Adriana Herrera 1:08:30 / #
On the way to the date, she's like, "oh, shoot, my sister. My dad sold her. So if the one guy wins the fight, she has to go with him. And can you find out who won the fight?" So I'm like, okay, but your sister like you left her? so anyway...
Nisha Sharma 1:08:51 / #
It crosses with THE FIGHTER'S PRIZE.
Adriana Herrera 1:08:53 / #
The FIGHTER'S PRIZE, right?
Sarah MacLean 1:08:54 / #
That's where they fucking in front of the priest later?
Nisha Sharma 1:08:57 / #
No, they fuck in front of the dad and the competitor.
Sarah MacLean 1:08:59 / #
Dad.
Adriana Herrera 1:08:59 / #
Yes. Yeah. But I mean, in hindsight, the stakes were a little bit different so it was not... anyway, so her sister could have been sold but she was on a date. She was gonna check in.
Sarah MacLean 1:09:14 / #
It worked out fine.
Nisha Sharma 1:09:16 / #
they didn't like the date place. So they went to like her watering hole
Adriana Herrera 1:09:20 / #
her watering hole
Nisha Sharma 1:09:21 / #
She is like 18 years old, By the way.
Adriana Herrera 1:09:23 / #
Everybody knows her because her dad who's like a deadbeat who sold her sister was like a patron in this watering hole type pub. Everybody knows it's him. But they're like, oh, look how sweet he is with her. So I guess it's fine that he's the greatest criminal mind in modern history. He's dating this little, I can't even remember, she'll be 19
Sarah MacLean 1:09:47 / #
they are all 18
Adriana Herrera 1:09:49 / #
she's in college.
LaQuette 1:09:50 / #
She's 19 maybe
Sarah MacLean 1:09:53 / #
they have to be...
Jennifer Prokop 1:09:55 / #
The sisters is 18
Sarah MacLean 1:09:56 / #
Super fertile because the id list, I mean like the only thing that is on every one of these id lists is she's got to get bred and I
Adriana Herrera 1:10:06 / #
happen like, waiting nights.
Sarah MacLean 1:10:09 / #
I know anybody who has children is like no thank you
LaQuette 1:10:13 / #
I feel like there's just, Jessa Kane, we have to talk about some of these things that she's been writing.
Sarah MacLean 1:10:19 / #
But this breeding thing is really to me, we've never talked, we've talked about it sort of vaguely on the podcast, the breeding thing, but like, it is a thing. It is like a real kink. That like a lot of
Adriana Herrera 1:10:31 / #
like, the omega verse is all about being bred like, yeah, it's literally millions of people read these.
Jennifer Prokop 1:10:42 / #
I'm gonna tell you I had to take to my bed when I had this realization. This is not an exaggeration. I read all these fucking books. And the one that is like a hardcore no go for me is the one where they're in high school. Now, part of this is because I have a son in high school and I was like, this is really fucking gross. And then I was like, these are the only two that are actually age appropriate. This is age appropriate for this eighteen year old to be with another eighteen year old, but I'm so grossed out by it, and instead I'm reading all the books where she is 18 and he is like 30 and then I had to like lay down
LaQuette 1:11:11 / #
You just have to come to terms with that.
Adriana Herrera 1:11:16 / #
No no HUSKY, their age difference.
Sarah MacLean 1:11:19 / #
What did you say? Alexis?
Alexis Daria 1:11:20 / #
In HUSKY, she's like, 21 Oh,
Sarah MacLean 1:11:24 / #
In QUEEN SIZED, she's 21. She's practically on the shelf.
Alexis Daria 1:11:27 / #
An old lady.
Adriana Herrera 1:11:29 / #
She's a
Sarah MacLean 1:11:31 / #
spinster.
Andie Christopher 1:11:32 / #
So okay, so can I just interject? I'm just, I'm just sitting here thinking about after this pandemic is over, after we can leave our houses again, after I can date again. I'm gonna have to tell Adriana about my dates.
LaQuette 1:11:53 / #
Why is it that only Adriana gets to hear though?
Sarah MacLean 1:11:56 / #
Yeah, I mean, why can't we just do this?
Andie Christopher 1:12:02 / #
Adriana is gonna be the one who is like, wait, he took you where?
Sarah MacLean 1:12:06 / #
No, it's gonna be like that one time. Do you guys remember the one time
Adriana Herrera 1:12:10 / #
Where did he take you before you gave him your flower?
Andie Christopher 1:12:17 / #
the pandemic flower
Sarah MacLean 1:12:19 / #
No, everyone, there was a time when LaQuette was like I have something to say. And literally, it was like, Oh, I envision the video of that montage in the film of us all, like leaping over furniture to get to our zoom. It's gonna be like that, Andie, every time you have a date, we're gonna leap over furniture to get to the zoom.
Adriana Herrera 1:12:40 / #
We're gonna have to start a whole new texting thread just for your date.
Sarah MacLean 1:12:43 / #
Because we don't have enough
Nisha Sharma 1:12:46 / #
Can we get back to THE KINGPIN'S WEAKNESS where he basically is like, I killed for you. And she's like, I'm so turned on! Andie, just make sure it's not that
Sarah MacLean 1:13:00 / #
I've got to say though, that works for me, if somebody killed for me, I probably do the same. It's hot.
Adriana Herrera 1:13:08 / #
if you're dating, if you're dating the greatest criminal mind.
Sarah MacLean 1:13:14 / #
He better kill For me, he better kill for me. It's Chekov's Gun is right there on the table.
Jennifer Prokop 1:13:21 / #
I could come back from the dead. She would thank him after he killed all those people. That is just how it goes.
Alexis Daria 1:13:28 / #
Yep. Yeah. As an aside, I was listening to Joanna's book. What was the third one in the Uptown Girls trilogy?
Jennifer Prokop 1:13:36 / #
The Devil of Downtown.
Alexis Daria 1:13:36 / #
I was listening to the audio book without headphones on while doing a puzzle, and my boyfriend was in the room, and they were describing him, Jack?
Adriana Herrera 1:13:51 / #
He dirty.
Alexis Daria 1:13:52 / #
He was the biggest criminal mastermind in all of New York City. And he also spoke 12 languages and played the piano like a god and my boyfriend was like...what?!
Sarah MacLean 1:14:03 / #
I mean when Jack killed you're like, what can we do? Can I get On top of him right now? Yeah, jack doesn't have to say it though. I would know I'd be like, Jack I saw what you did.
Andie Christopher 1:14:16 / #
I need to see the Uptown girls on Netflix.
Adriana Herrera 1:14:20 / #
Oh my god. Oh, yeah, please, please.
Sarah MacLean 1:14:23 / #
Where do I sign that change.org petition
Adriana Herrera 1:14:26 / #
The only person I would let have Henry Cavill for that part Is you, for Jack.
Jennifer Prokop 1:14:36 / #
Another really weird thing I love about Jessa Kane books that has nothing to do with any of the sex stuff. A lot of these bitches have real interesting jobs. And I just appreciate that. There is one where the woman wants to be a roller coaster designer,
Jennifer Prokop 1:14:54 / #
You know what, this is fucking great because again, it reminds me a lot of 80s romances where they all have, they want to go to school, you know what I mean? And not all of them, sometimes they're just ingenues, but this one with the roller coaster designer I was like that is so nice and specific.
Sarah MacLean 1:15:10 / #
In THEIR SUMMER INTERN, she is a bungee jumping tester. She tests the bungee jumping harness.
Adriana Herrera 1:15:21 / #
You know Jessa is watching National Geographic and being like I'm gonna make the next one a bungee jumper,
Sarah MacLean 1:15:27 / #
But, you guys it all ties together, it's just very clever. She's testing the harness and then their evil mother, she rigs the harness and there she is just dangling off the edge of a bungee cord. Luckily, she has upper body strength for days, able to hang on and twist herself into it like an aerialist. And then they pull her up, and they're so upset and then they go fuck her. They take her home, they fuck her, they go after their mother who then like somehow escapes jail, or makes bail and gets out, and then finds her and tries to drown her in a swimming pool. But then, they get there, too.
Alexis Daria 1:16:08 / #
Which book is this?
Sarah MacLean 1:16:10 / #
THEIR SUMMER INTERN.
Tracey Livesay 1:16:14 / #
I was like, it could be HER 2 PROTECTORS, it's all, it all of them. Are
LaQuette 1:16:17 / #
Are there any like relatives in this with the intern?
Sarah MacLean 1:16:20 / #
Yeah, two brothers! LaQuette, I know. I'm so sorry. I'm very gauche.
Andie Christopher 1:16:32 / #
I literally read these and I'm like, Oh, that's gonna be a problem for me. And by the end of the book it's not.
Sarah MacLean 1:16:37 / #
And then I'm like, sure.
Adriana Herrera 1:16:39 / #
You know what, I feel like there's just, first of all, and again, this is what I have discovered about myself with taboo romance. You give it to me, in short, short, small portions. I can roll with most things.
Sarah MacLean 1:16:53 / #
You can't put it down, that the trick. If you put it down, you're not going back.
Alexis Daria 1:16:57 / #
I was thinking about how we're telling a lot about these stories, but we're barely scratching the surface of what is happening in these books. And they're a dollar!
Alexis Daria 1:17:11 / #
99 cents or you can get it for free on KU.
Adriana Herrera 1:17:14 / #
In HIS SUMMER INTERN, she escapes and asylum! they've been keeping her captive!
Sarah MacLean 1:17:23 / #
WHAT! and then she becomes an author's
Jennifer Prokop 1:17:25 / #
No, she runs away and she stumbles across his cottage
Joanna Shupe 1:17:29 / #
in the woods.
Jennifer Prokop 1:17:30 / #
And he thinks, Oh, this is my intern.
Adriana Herrera 1:17:34 / #
And he's like, wait a minute, she's not but I'm not gonna tell her I know, because I'm really into her.
Alexis Daria 1:17:40 / #
Because now he's in love with her already.
Adriana Herrera 1:17:42 / #
He's imprinted on her
Alexis Daria 1:17:45 / #
there's a lot of cabins in the woods.
Sarah MacLean 1:17:47 / #
As a Life PSA, you should not be interning with a survivalist author in the woods. Like if you get that internship you need to not go
Joanna Shupe 1:17:59 / #
that's the unabomber right there.
Adriana Herrera 1:18:01 / #
Yes, yes.
Andie Christopher 1:18:03 / #
Can we talk about THE LONER'S LADY, with like the girl who went to her like, Oh, she was pretending to be this, young gay man's. She was a beard.
Jennifer Prokop 1:18:17 / #
Right. Wait, it's her and her best friend.
Andie Christopher 1:18:19 / #
It's her and her best friend, going to visit his dad because he didn't think his dad would accept him for who he was. But it turns out that the dad knew [he was gay] and he was like, "that's cool, whatever." And but then the dad was like, but I want to fuck your best friend.
Jennifer Prokop 1:18:39 / #
Yeah, and the best part is the friend kind of sees the attraction between these two and pretends to have a bunch of homework. So those two can get it on all over the woods.
Sarah MacLean 1:18:50 / #
Is this another Jessa Kane book that we're talking about? [it is! The Loner's Lady]
Adriana Herrera 1:18:53 / #
Yes. Yes. And also there's a lot of having sex on the grass.
Jennifer Prokop 1:18:58 / #
Yes. Oh, God she can do anything
Sarah MacLean 1:19:00 / #
Very outdoors, against the house. against a tree.
Adriana Herrera 1:19:05 / #
Yeah.
Andie Christopher 1:19:08 / #
A lot of things that would chafe.
Adriana Herrera 1:19:10 / #
There's a line, there's a line in PREACHER MAN when he tells her, "I've come so many times against your house, like the wall of your house, I've worn down the paint." And I told myself, "the quarantine has done things to you Adriana."
Tracey Livesay 1:19:39 / #
It's not healthy.
Adriana Herrera 1:19:44 / #
Look at Tracey! It's not healthy, it's not.
Sarah MacLean 1:19:47 / #
Tracey is concerned about his liquid intake.
Tracey Livesay 1:19:53 / #
Also, they have a lot. There's always like there's so much
Adriana Herrera 1:19:58 / #
Oh yeah. Mmm, hmm. there's a very like Pornhub feel to it.
Sarah MacLean 1:20:04 / #
Like a sprinkler like a garden sprinkler.
Tracey Livesay 1:20:07 / #
A gusher. Yeah.
Jennifer Prokop 1:20:12 / #
A friend of mine read some romance for the first time and she was like, there's a lot of really weird things about romance like, but one is the idea that like individual jets of sperm can be felt.
Adriana Herrera 1:20:28 / #
we roll with it.
Andie Christopher 1:20:31 / #
LaQuette is Done with all of us. She's like,
Sarah MacLean 1:20:36 / #
I would like my voice removed, my track removed.
Adriana Herrera 1:20:41 / #
Take My square out.
Sarah MacLean 1:20:43 / #
LaQuette is president of RWA
LaQuette 1:20:46 / #
I am not the president of RWA, I am the president elect of RWA
LaQuette 1:20:52 / #
either way, If you like it, I love it.
LaQuette 1:20:55 / #
I don't you know, I don't yuck on other people's yum.
Jennifer Prokop 1:20:59 / #
Back when we did the pegging episode, Sarah. Yeah. I just feel like maybe this is like our New Year's plan is
Sarah MacLean 1:21:10 / #
Oh, well, this is what I was gonna say. Right? Well, yeah, we we are putting this episode out on New Year's Eve as like, last year, we did pegging on New Year's Eve and we put it out a little early on New Year's Eve. So this year, we'll do the same and it'll be like the fun kind of raunchy episode for New Year's Eve, but it was really fun. And maybe we just have this crew back every year.
Joanna Shupe 1:21:34 / #
I don't think Jessa has pegging on the trope wheel.
Andie Christopher 1:21:37 / #
She doesn't!
Adriana Herrera 1:21:39 / #
She should put it in.
Nisha Sharma 1:21:40 / #
Yeah, I want to call her and tell her aliens and pegging
Sarah MacLean 1:21:43 / #
time travel pegging. I'd have
Adriana Herrera 1:21:47 / #
Barbs. pegging aliens.
Alexis Daria 1:21:50 / #
I thought QUEEN SIZE was gonna go there because she was like, can't get my virginity because I got to participate in the stupid wife auction. And like, they kind of like skirted around that like, oh, maybe this, but like they didn't do that they did something else instead.
Adriana Herrera 1:22:06 / #
I mean, if she needs to take it to pegging, she should just take it and normalize it
Jennifer Prokop 1:22:14 / #
it's 2021 So yeah, that's, I guess. Okay.
Jennifer Prokop 1:22:18 / #
And so we have time travel , pegging , aliens , Barbs, those go together.What else?
Sarah MacLean 1:22:24 / #
Wait, can I ask the teacher one is HIS PRIZE PUPIL but they're not really teacher student.
Joanna Shupe 1:22:29 / #
So they are.
Andie Christopher 1:22:30 / #
they eventually are. Yeah.
Joanna Shupe 1:22:33 / #
Not at first
Jennifer Prokop 1:22:33 / #
She's taking a photography class from him. And he is her
Joanna Shupe 1:22:37 / #
she's got to sell her virginity. So she ends up at the town, Like madam's, you know, place.
Sarah MacLean 1:22:45 / #
every town has a madam.
LaQuette 1:22:47 / #
It's Always transactional, like why?
Adriana Herrera 1:22:55 / #
I honestly think Jessa has her ID list, laminated and on the wall of her desks. And it's like, it's like 10 things and that's what she's doing.
Jennifer Prokop 1:23:07 / #
It's like a deck of cards and she just shuffles.
Alexis Daria 1:23:09 / #
So that's all of our homework assignment is to like print out our ID list.
Joanna Shupe 1:23:13 / #
Yeah, make me into a wheel.
Adriana Herrera 1:23:17 / #
I don't have a wheel but I might do that. That's a good idea.
Joanna Shupe 1:23:27 / #
For whatever you come up with, take three or four of them, make them work somehow
Sarah MacLean 1:23:32 / #
that moment when you get stuck at the end of a chapter and you're like what comes next just spin the wheel done.
Nisha Sharma 1:23:38 / #
So for...
Sarah MacLean 1:23:39 / #
virginity sale
Nisha Sharma 1:23:41 / #
I think what we should do is we should get our ID list together and create summaries of stories and in 2021 be like, is this a Jessa Kane book or not? Or is that like part of Nisha's ID?
Sarah MacLean 1:23:54 / #
Yes, very fun. Anyway, we hope that Jessa Kane, This episode was really done out of love. Jessa if you are listening, we really do love you and we're we think that you're fabulous. If you've never read a Jessa Kane book, you can get them all on Kindle Unlimited, except for the one where they fuck in front of a priest, which you have to get on iBooks.
Sarah MacLean 1:24:26 / #
Sorry, what did you say Jen?
Jennifer Prokop 1:24:29 / #
There is a second Jessa Kane / Alexa Riley crossover book that is also available on iBooks only because Alexa Riley, you know,
Sarah MacLean 1:24:36 / #
isn't in Kindle so you can do that. They are all on Kindle Unlimited, but you don't have to have Kindle unlimited. You can also buy them for 99 cents a pop on your Kindle.
Jennifer Prokop 1:24:51 / #
This is like, you know, deplatforming of certain Jessa Kane books out of your Kindle unlimited library. They just stay there forever. Yeah, I believe
Andie Christopher 1:25:01 / #
These books literally became a part of my soul during quarantine. I mean they probably really are really going to send me to hell.
Andie Christopher 1:25:10 / #
but we are also
Adriana Herrera 1:25:16 / #
There's no Hell in Jessa Kane's universe.
Sarah MacLean 1:25:18 / #
No, no, no. We are releasing this early on New Year's Eve. So if you have nothing to do this New Year's Eve if you are in your house quarantining and being safe, we hope you are being safe and everybody's being healthy and wearing their masks and if you're in your house and you're looking for something to do, you can read like five or 10 of these tonight.
Andie Christopher 1:25:42 / #
Charge your Lelo vibrators before you download.
Nisha Sharma 1:25:49 / #
Plug everything in, sanitize, please.
Adriana Herrera 1:25:55 / #
Be sanitar!
Tracey Livesay 1:25:57 / #
I just went Oh boy.
Sarah MacLean 1:26:00 / #
No, this has been Andie Christopher and Joanna Shoop and Alexis Daria and Nisha Sharma and Tracey Livesey and LaQuette and Adriana Herrera. I'm Sarah MacLean. Jen is Jen reads romance. And this has been a very special episode of drunk romance history and Fated Mates, watch drunk romance history at Andie's Instagram feed. Andie, where can people find you?
Adriana Herrera 1:26:28 / #
ATauthor AndieJ. Almost everyone on this chat has been on drunk romance history. Joanna is scheduled in January, Alexis, we're still putting you down. You're gonna get Valentine's Day just so you know.
Alexis Daria 1:26:45 / #
I still have to pick a book.
Sarah MacLean 1:26:47 / #
But we will put on show notes for Fated Mates. We will put links to everybody's drunk romance history. We'll put links to everybody's website so that you can find all these people in their amazing books. These are some of our favorite people. And we are so excited. Thank you all for making time for us this week on a holiday week.
Jennifer Prokop 1:27:05 / #
Yeah. I'm gonna get off the phone and we're gonna make the Jessa Kane trope wheel, have you have that. And then to help us with the making the spreadsheet pretty and that's all going to be amazing.
Sarah MacLean 1:27:17 / #
And you can find us at Fated mates.net and Happy New Year everyone makes 2021
S03.14: Our 100th Episode! Fated Mates Live
ONE HUNDRED EPISODES!
You’ve seen us through Immortals After Dark, through Books that Blooded Us, and through a presidential election, so if there was any doubt that you’re stuck with us, put that right out of your mind! We love you so much for listening…and we hope you have as much fun listening to this episode as we had recording it!
Thanks to Tracey Livesay, Andie J Christopher, Kate Clayborn, Christina Lauren, Adriana Herrera, Nisha Sharma and Joanna Shupe for joining us, and to Steve Ammidown for popping in to say hi!
Next week, we have an interstitial coming, and the following week, we’re back on read alongs with Sally Thorne’s The Hating Game! Get it at Amazon, B&N, Kobo, Apple or at your local indie via bookshop.org.
Show Notes
In between when we recorded and when you're listening, something great happened.
How did Hollywood Squares work? What did the theme song sound like? What does Whoopi Goldberg have to do with it?
Fated States will be back! One of our dedicated phone bankers and the head of the OSRBC-IAD book discussion, Caroline, had an amazing experience when she was phone banking the week before the election. And we are not at all jealous about her amazing gift basket from Kresley Cole!
Check out Milla Vane on the Wicked Wallflowers podcast.
Andie Christopher hosts Drunk Romance History on her Instagram feed every Saturday and it’s hilarious. Sarah joined her Saturday after a full day of Election drinking to talk Suddenly You.
Do you know the book where a wave causes accidental penetration for a couple on a beach? NEITHER DO WE!
Here’s the link to all the slides for Fuck, Marry, Kill and Would Derek Craven. And here are all the Title Smash slides.
We invented a holiday. No big.
We love Philadelphia. Gritty was an unexpected hero of the 2020 election. Now you know all about the Philadelphia Left.
The Danielle Steele thread from Steve Ammidown at the Browne Pop Culture Library.
We really need to talk about the 80s blockbusters The Thorn Birds, Clan of the Cave Bear, and Flowers in the Attic (and powdered donuts).
It was Buffy and Spike in the mausoleum, not Buffy and Angel.
We can't find the TikTok of Paul Rudd and his son, but instead we'll discuss if anyone knows where Michael J. Fox got his cloning machine?
We’ll leave you to contemplate the whole “hero pooping” theory on your own, but we all know for sure that Elvis poops.
S02.06: Cinnamon Roll Heroes with Andie Christopher
We heard you! You wanted to talk about Cinnamon Roll Heroes, so here we are, and we’re bringing in an expert on the topic (in real life and in fiction) — Andie Christopher. We’re talking about the evolution and popularization of the beta in the 90s, why they became such a powerful force then, why they’re back now, and why they work so well for some readers! We’ll also talk about dating in 2019, recommend some books (obviously), and talk about Andie’s upcoming, Not the Girl You Marry, which is out November 12!
Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, please leave us a like or a review!
Next week, we’re going back to paranormal with the first book in JR Ward’s Black Dagger Brotherhood series, Dark Lover. It’s a whole ride. Strap in. Get it at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo or your local indie (it’s currently only $2.99 in ebook!).
Show Notes
We're so excited to have Andie on the podcast -- her book, Not the Girl You Marry, is out November 12th. Preorder now!
Do you know the importance of a Sky Pager?
The Pegging Crew is a nickname we use with love for the folks who bought a change to decide a Fated Mates interstitial topic.
If you're looking for romances with the Great British Bake Off energy, Sarah recommends Louisa Edwards.-
Last summer, Jen interviewed Andie for Kirkus.
Nancy Pelosi is taking care of business.
Olivia Dade has a great list of cinnamon roll heroes, but this piece from The Onion originated the term.
The Simone Scale is very different from the Clayborn Curve.
I guess you can decide for yourself if Father Bell is a cinnamon roll (whispers: especially because this will be a season 2 book that blooded us).
The only person who can ask for flowers is Barbra Streisand.
Every time Jen mentions a fainting couch, she's thinking of this most excellent pinterest board by friend of the pod @bandherbooks.
Some really thoughtful tweets that were in response to our alpha episode: Charlotte talking about lust and care, and Cat talking about baggage.
The original stern brunch daddy tweet.
Toxic masculinity is like acid rain, not rain rain.
The "I'm baby" meme.
Jess & Marie are pretty great.
Andie said Gen Z doesn't fuck, but it sounds like they just don't date.
The romance trailblazer video from this year's RITAs is so great.
TRANSCRIPT
Sarah MacLean 0:00 / #
Okay, so we're just popping this in at the beginning of the cinnamon / # roll interstitial with Andie Christopher, give us a couple minutes, you guys Andie's on her way. But we have a plan and we're very excited about it.
Jennifer Prokop 0:13 / #
It's really exciting. Sarah made me try it. So we know it works.
Sarah MacLean 0:18 / #
It's true. So we have set up a voicemail box for you guys.For old school level, like you can basically page
Jennifer Prokop 0:30 / #
Oh my god, it's like A Tribe Called Quest song.
A Tribe Called Quest 0:33 / #
Enter your Telephone number or other numeric message.
Sarah MacLean 0:43 / #
So we're going to give you a telephone number, a United States telephone number for international listeners. And you're going to get to call and it's going to go right to voicemail. And you will hear my voice asking you to tell us about the book that blooded you, Jen, what do we want them to tell us?
Jennifer Prokop 1:03 / #
Okay, so I think here's the important thing. We are hopefully going to actually play these audio clips on future podcasts. Yeah,
Sarah MacLean 1:11 / #
you're by giving us voicemail, by leaving us a voicemail you are consenting to us putting it on the podcast.
Jennifer Prokop 1:18 / #
Yeah. So I think it's really important that you probably should just say you're like your first name. You don't have to give us your full name, address please or phone number. Please don't do that.
Sarah MacLean 1:26 / #
Please don't.
Jennifer Prokop 1:27 / #
None of us would like any of your data we we want you to be pleasantly anonymous. Anyway. So you're going to tell us your name. If you would like to-- where you live. That's kind of fun when you started reading romance, some small biographical details, I think to get the flavor. And then I want you to tell us the book and it's really great if its title and author.
Sarah MacLean 1:49 / #
Yes, please. And tell us why.
Jennifer Prokop 1:51 / #
Yeah, like Sarah story where she read Gentle Rogue her desk, right? I think what we're looking for is not like your review of the book, but your memory of the reading of it. right?
Sarah MacLean 2:02 / #
We're interested in like the prime on this of this book. Why this is the book that brought you to romance and kept you here? Um, so that is the story. That is what we're doing. The telephone number is [redacted]. And we are not putting this-- you have to write it down, you guys. We're not putting on the internet because the last thing I need is like cranky readers leaving me voicemail about my books. Don't leave me voicemail about my books.
Jennifer Prokop 2:41 / #
You know what I'll say? Yeah, it's if it's, if it's anything other than like, kind of what we described, we'll probably just delete it. And you know, we're not trying to be mean, but this isn't, you know, there's lots of ways to talk to us on Twitter or whatever. This is really specifically the books to blooded us hotline.
Sarah MacLean 3:01 / #
Okay, we're gonna give you the telephone number during episodes too, but like I said, we're not gonna put it in show notes. We're not gonna tweet it. It's really it's just between all us all US friends.Yeah, you know, 10,000 closest friends. So if you leave us-- pegging crew! Don't leave us messages about pegging.
Jennifer Prokop 3:32 / #
Oh my god. I'm excited about all of it.
Sarah MacLean 3:36 / #
I'm really excited to I can't wait. Tell us about the books that you love-- from the past from the present. Call multiple times. Tell us about multiple books.
Jennifer Prokop 3:48 / #
Sure. And you know, we're not sure exactly how we're how we're going to use this yet. So you know, we don't know exactly how it'll work. So it could be that we get inundated with calls and keep it up for a week or two and take it down. It could be something that goes on for a long time. So no promises anybody, maybe we don't, but we just think it'll be really fun to hear. Yes,
Sarah MacLean 4:09 / #
this could be a very big mistake to we haven't talked, but
Jennifer Prokop 4:13 / #
I don't think it'll be a mistake. I'm just worried it's too much. Like we won't be able to get everybody on right. I mean, you know, you guys seem cool though. I think
Sarah MacLean 4:21 / #
I think we're all gonna we're all grown ups. We're all going to be able to, you know, hold hold firm. I'm very excited that I'm making you all do something old fashioned, like pick up the phone and leave us a voicemail like a a civilized human being.
Jennifer Prokop 4:38 / #
No dick pics.
Sarah MacLean 4:41 / #
Note Yeah, impossible to leave us a dick pic.
Sarah MacLean 4:45 / #
Okay, And we can't wait to hear your voices in our ear holes.
Jennifer Prokop 4:55 / #
Yes, that's right.
Sarah MacLean 4:57 / #
Stay tuned for Andie Christopher and cinnamon / # rolls.
Sarah MacLean 5:02 / #
Well, we made a lot of people mad.
Jennifer Prokop 5:06 / #
They haven't even heard the Derek Craven episode yet, so I don't even know what the hell's going on Sarah
Sarah MacLean 5:13 / #
Well, welcome to Fated Mates everyone it is a beta cinnamon / # roll soft hero week. It's a little late Great British Bake Off.
Jennifer Prokop 5:26 / #
We actually just got an amazing-- someone tweeted us right now and was like, Is there a book where it's essentially set during the Great British Bake Off? Only I don't watch that show. And so it said #GBBO, and I didn't know what it was and I go look it up. So I'm like the wrong person to ask I guess.
Sarah MacLean 5:45 / #
I am the exact right person to ask about that. I don't know about a baking one. But Louisa Edwards did a like Top Chef style romance series which we will play in show notes. More importantly, we should introduce our guest.
Sarah MacLean 6:05 / #
Before we're too far down the rabbit hole. Welcome, Andie Christopher.
Sarah MacLean 6:12 / #
we are so excited to have you. I can't believe it's taken us until season two.
Andie Christopher 6:17 / #
It's it's taken a long time, but we did record that one episode that Just didn't make it.
Sarah MacLean 6:24 / #
It's actually not that it didn't make it. It's that someone was terrible at recording themselves.
Jennifer Prokop 6:31 / #
Wait, you have no idea everybody Sarah, I'm about to tell you a story you don't even know only Andie and I know-- which is I fucked up the recording the first time it was the three of us and actually accidentally had this master reverb thing on, which was essentially it made me sound like I was in a soccer stadium. And then-- here's what you don't know. I also recorded an interview with Andie because I interviewed her for Kirkus earlier this summer, and at literally 10 minutes before our scheduled phone call. My child-- who we were in Dallas for his volleyball tournament-- played volleyball day then ate a bunch of stuff and then literally barfed all over the hotel room. And I had to clean it all up, and then call and Andie and be like, "Hi, sorry. Thank God you're not in this room with me because it's disgusting." So I'm going to go with Third time's a charm.
Andie Christopher 7:22 / #
I hope so. I hope so.
Jennifer Prokop 7:24 / #
Nobody's gonna barf right now. And I'm not in a soccer stadium.
Sarah MacLean 7:29 / #
I'm really glad and also it's a good day, you guys. It's a really good day, because Nancy Pelosi finally got her shit together and was like, let's impeach the motherfucker.
Jennifer Prokop 7:45 / #
I mean, Yes. I need her to be hard as nails right now.
Andie Christopher 7:50 / #
She was bringing the Big Mom energy during that, during that press conference. She was bringing the "I told you once I told you twice. This is the third time and now we're done."
Sarah MacLean 8:05 / #
You don't get to go to prom. Yeah, if only we actually were prom. And, uh, but basically, what better thing for us to do tonight than to talk about soft, good, sweet heroes who make us happy to be in the world.
Jennifer Prokop 8:27 / #
So true.
Sarah MacLean 8:29 / #
So to a few weeks ago, we released our alpha episode. It was the first interstitial of season two because we decided it was time for us to come, we were going to come hard for all of you with season two. And Jen and I put our stakes in the ground on alphas. And we had, I think, a really thoughtful conversation about alphas and why they exist. And a lot of people on Twitter and in other places asked us a lot of really great questions about: why alphas? and Why not betas? and why not cinnamon / # rolls? And first of all, I just want to repeat something that I feel like we said a bunch on on that alpha episode but clearly needs repeating, and that is that at no point did Jen and I say that romance novels can't exist without alphas. And at no point did Jen and I say that alphas and betas are the only descriptors of heroes. In fact, I think at multiple points we said, this is sort of a dumb way of articulating heroes because they should be more right than one thing. They should have nuance.
Jennifer Prokop 9:43 / #
I don't even know if we said that. I mean, I feel bad. We say it to each other all the time. But on that particular note,
Sarah MacLean 9:48 / #
we definitely did. I went back and checked. I said like good writing requires the hero to be nuance,
Jennifer Prokop 9:54 / #
yeah. characters to be nuanced.
Sarah MacLean 9:57 / #
Exactly. So but what's really the reason why we're here So Jen and I had already started talking about Okay, we're going to have to do, we're going to do a second episode, and we're going to do an episode that'll be about kind of the softer hero. And I don't know, I'm really glad Andie's with us because I think one of the really valuable things for us to talk about, maybe at the very beginning of this, is what makes a cinnamon / # roll versus a beta. I'm not sure I understand all the terms. So can we do that first and really sort of establish what we're talking about? And then I want to talk a little bit about history. And then I want Andie to talk about her brilliant thoughts on why cinnamon / # rolls are working now in a way that maybe they weren't a year, a decade ago or five years ago.
Jennifer Prokop 10:44 / #
So I feel like we should talk about like the origin of that cinnamon / # roll like it comes from The Onion, right? Isn't that what it is? Like?
Andie Christopher 10:53 / #
It's like, it's like this sweet cinnamon / # roll of a human is too good and sweet for this world.
Jennifer Prokop 10:57 / #
Yes. And there's Also a really funny tweet. I should find that-- Yeah, I think it's funny because a lot of people like why cinnamon / # rolls? And I think it's actually a it comes from this Onion piece and I think it's just sort of pervasively became this really funny thing that everyone just really glommed on to as being a great way to describe a certain kind of character. And the fact that, I feel like one of, a pioneering person in terms of like defining it was Olivia dade. And we linked to her list of cinnamon / # roll heroes a bunch of times. But what she says is, "Cinnamon / # roll heroes are supportive, kind people who do their best even when they make mistakes." And so that is what it is that she defines as being a cinnamon / # roll hero. And then she made out, got a whole bunch of people to crowdsource the list and so if you're looking for heroes like this, after we talked about it today, we will link to this list because it is amazing and has, I don't know, 70 or 100 books on it that you might want to check out.
Andie Christopher 12:07 / #
Yeah, I think a couple of my books are on that too, but I'm not sure if those books are quite accurately as cinnamon / # roll-y as I thought they were.
Jennifer Prokop 12:14 / #
interesting.
Andie Christopher 12:15 / #
I mean, I think they are just not quite... I'm not going at.. I'm not on the Simone scale. I'm somewhere on the Claybourne curve.
Sarah MacLean 12:29 / #
I'm gonna go ahead and say that cinnamon / # roll heroes don't even make Simone scale. Her zero point on the access is Darcy, who is not a cinnamon / # roll. So,
Andie Christopher 12:43 / #
Okay, but I was thinking about this today. And I think Father Bell [hero of PRIEST by Sierra Simone] is in some senses.
Sarah MacLean 12:51 / #
What are you saying right now?
Jennifer Prokop 12:57 / #
You Gotta start over again. Time Out. Recalibrate.
Sarah MacLean 13:02 / #
Oh my god no
Jennifer Prokop 13:03 / #
Andie!
Sarah MacLean 13:04 / #
I'm pretty sure Sierra Simone is in London right now at Rare London, and I feel like she just woke up at like 5am and was like there's a disturbance.
Andie Christopher 13:15 / #
she would love me for saying something blasphemous...
Sarah MacLean 13:18 / #
But I will hear your arguments. Miss Christopher.
Andie Christopher 13:24 / #
Okay. For me, the cinnamon / # roll hero's number one priority is the heroine's emotional, mental, and or spiritual well being, physical well being. So that kind of overrides everything else and I think, Father Bell, because we're so in his head, expends a lot of the conflict of the book is trying to put the heroine's emotional, physical and spiritual well being over his own wants and desires that he has attempted unsuccessfully to sublimate.
Sarah MacLean 14:04 / #
Okay, so I think this is really interesting because I guess that all makes that all makes sense to me but what I don't understand is like how is that different than what any romance hero wants? Like? I think about Derek Craven, right? Who was our first book of the of the season or frankly most Kresley Cole heroes-- I mean not, okay, pbviously not Lothaire. But like, you know, there are others. Like all those werewolf heroes. I mean like werewolves...are they, are werewolf cinnamon / # rolls?
Andie Christopher 14:45 / #
I think the were-- of Kresley levels-- the werewolf in "A Hunger Like No Other" I'm his name is escaping me right now. He's not a cinnamon / # roll, I would say, and like MacReive is not a cinnamon / # roll
Jennifer Prokop 14:59 / #
See! Because I'm like, none of them are, Andie! What the hell are you talking about?
Sarah MacLean 15:03 / #
She's not wrong. Because what about about Lucia and...
Andie Christopher 15:06 / #
Declan.
Jennifer Prokop 15:07 / #
Declan! He's the vivisector!
Andie Christopher 15:11 / #
Sorry!
Sarah MacLean 15:15 / #
Well, we're the same way with all those heroes. Lucia and help, help me.
Jennifer Prokop 15:21 / #
Garreth.
Sarah MacLean 15:21 / #
in the Amazon
Andie Christopher 15:22 / #
Garreth. Yes,
Sarah MacLean 15:23 / #
Garrett?
Jennifer Prokop 15:24 / #
Garreth. Is it Garreth?
Sarah MacLean 15:26 / #
Yeah. Is he a cinnamon / # roll?
Andie Christopher 15:29 / #
I think he's a little bit of a cinnamon / # roll.
Jennifer Prokop 15:31 / #
I feel like I have to log off and go lay on a fainting couch. I don't understand anything anybody? Like, Oh,
Sarah MacLean 15:40 / #
All right. So this is really interesting-- somebody, but somebody else tweeted at us. A person named Charlotte, @romansdegare on Twitter, tweeted "I've still got that Fated Mates episode on the brain as I read "Damaged Goods" and starting to wonder if cinnamon / # roll conflict is often I'm caring for you emotionally so I can't lust after you. While alpha conflict is the reverse. I'm lusting after you so I can't care for you." And Jen and I sort of discussed this privately. And like there's something maybe here this, and you said it too. I think Andie when you said: you care about her like emotional and spiritual well being. Then you said, the third thing you said was physical, and I wonder if that's part of it. Like, where the relationship starts versus where it ends.
Jennifer Prokop 16:39 / #
So here's here's what I'm going to suggest, because I right now think-- as my blueprint-- is when I think of cinnamon / # rolls, to me, the pinnacle of cinnamon / # roll-dom is "Rafe" by Rebecca Weatherspoon. And I kind of felt, I literally was like, "I should reread part of it today to like, make sure I'm all on point." And I fell right back into the book. And I think there's a really interesting part. And there's also a really interesting thread someone tweeted us from her, a woman named Kat C, And what she said is cinnamon / # roll heroes are, not cinnamon / # rolls, but she "likes reading books where people are dealing with their baggage in not so aggressive ways." And I think what "Rafe" -- so there's this part in "Rafe" where he is essentially interviewing for the job to be her nanny, Sloan's nanny or her twin girls bailed-- literally, it's like horrifying as a mother-- she basically comes home and finds her six year old girls home alone. And the nanny left the keys to the car and the house keys with a note that said, "I quit. I just don't want to do this anymore." So she's really scrambling to find someone and she ends up getting Rafe, who's been essentially nannying, He's like in his early 30s, for like 10 or 12 years. And Rafe, at the interview says to her, "Um, I think we Have a problem. I've never, I've never nannied for a single mom I'm this attracted to before." And he just has, he's a grown up who can lay it out on the table and put it in front of her, as opposed to.... I don't know, like, stomping around and not admitting he has feelings. So to me a cinnamon / # roll is like, I have feelings, and I actually am aware of them. And I know what to do with them. I don't know you guys like. And the thing is, that to me is the it's because of course, alphas care for people! We talked about that. The difference I think, is
Sarah MacLean 18:36 / #
the emotion. The emotion sneaks up on an alpha.
Jennifer Prokop 18:39 / #
and a cinnamon / # roll person is like, Yes, I have feelings. Duh, who doesn't. And I'll tell you what, it's funny. I'm going to say one more thing. I there are parts of this book. I didn't do a lot of highlighting. There's this one part where they sort of like they kiss and she's like, "I'm not sure I really want to do this" and he's like, "okay, we're gonna leave it up to you." And then he's like, "What do you want?" And she says, "I want you to make this easy on me." And I was like, there you go. He was like, you're right. His communication skills are through the roof. That to me is what makes a cinnamon / # roll a cinnamon / # roll. Being able to communicate,
Andie Christopher 19:17 / #
yeah, can use this words as opposed to like, I want to punch someone.
Jennifer Prokop 19:20 / #
Okay. And in the case of brief, also his cock fine.
Andie Christopher 19:24 / #
I sort of reject the premise that any romance hero that I'm really going to fall in love with does not have a quasi-magical penis. Like, I want I want to be like, I'm vomiting out unicorns the next day thinking about the hero and what he can do with his magical member.
Jennifer Prokop 19:53 / #
I'm just giggling
Sarah MacLean 19:54 / #
I don't think you're alone in this.
Andie Christopher 19:57 / #
I just 100%... I hate, I don't like it when a book has an awkward sex scene between the hero and the heroine. That is the opposite of what my ID wants. Like my ID wants him to like, bang it out, make her see stars
Jennifer Prokop 20:14 / #
into next week!
Andie Christopher 20:15 / #
into next week, every single time. I need it. That's just it's a baseline.
Jennifer Prokop 20:24 / #
Rafe can get it, you guys! I just want you to know. I think part of the reason Rafe is particularly-- I don't read a whole lot of cinnamon / # roll books. This one really worked for me. And I think there are a couple reasons why. One is because I hate cooking and cleaning. And I did not like raising my child. I love my son, you guys, but I didn't... those years when he was really young were really hard for me. I still hate cooking and cleaning and always well. But the idea that a competent man is going to appear and like take over those tasks for me in my house. And also Fuck me into next week. Hello. Sign me up. I mean, I'm sorry. Maybe that's not everyone's fantasy, but I'm going to tell you right now. It is hot. It worked for me.
Sarah MacLean 21:11 / #
Okay, so here's my thing, right? So I was trying to come up with cinnamon / # rolls, who I have loved. And this obviously is a challenge for me. But I, here are two who I've loved. And ironically, it's the same trope, right?
Jennifer Prokop 21:31 / #
Okay, interesting.
Sarah MacLean 21:32 / #
I loved the hero and Helen Hoang's "The Kiss Quotient."
Andie Christopher 21:38 / #
Love him.
Sarah MacLean 21:39 / #
And I loved the hero in Claire Kent's "Escorted." And in both of those cases, we're talking about soft heroes, who are all the things that you are saying-- Able to vocalize emotion, able to understand like their emotional relationship with the world, They've been through therapy, or they have these big families. But at the same time, they're male escorts and highly-- Here you are, Jen--able to bang you into next week
Sarah MacLean 22:25 / #
But also I think there's something, but at the same time, like in that particular dynamic, I think the reason why both these heroes work well for me, is because there is sort of, there is a power structure here. Like they are deeply competent, and sort of teaching the heroine something. And so maybe they're not cinnamon / # rolls at all. I don't know are they?
Jennifer Prokop 22:53 / #
Clearly we're the three wrong people to be talking about this.
Andie Christopher 22:57 / #
I mean, I definitely think--I I haven't read "Escorted." But I definitely think Michael in "The Kiss Quotient" is a cinnamon / # roll. Um,
Sarah MacLean 23:06 / #
I mean, he's got that big family. He cares so much about his sisters and his mom. I mean, He's amazing.
Andie Christopher 23:13 / #
I think there's an interesting sort of layer of conflicts there because like, I think at first, he's not trying to let her into that part of him. So he is a cinnamon / # roll, but he has this, this sort of layer that he keeps between himself, his true self, and his clients. And so I think, you know, part of the conflict and part of them overcoming their conflict is she penetrates that. And the way I think, yeah, so it makes sense,
Jennifer Prokop 23:44 / #
you guys, I'm doing my best.
Andie Christopher 23:48 / #
It's my... I think, penetrate is the right word, because like she's a little bit sort of the alpha in that, in that power dynamic. She really, she gets under his skin. You know, I think in a way, more quickly than... and then he gets under hers.
Sarah MacLean 24:11 / #
Yeah, it's just it's a really interesting question because... so it takes us, So that is the second piece of the question is, is a cinnamon / # roll and a beta the same? Or like is that even worth having -- like do betas even exist? But then I think they kind of do, right? So we talked a little bit about the history of the alpha when we talked about alphas, and we're doing a lot of conversational romance history as we do this season. And so I think it's valuable for us to talk about the history of the beta, right? And again, I think it's important and I just want to qualify when we talk about the history and we say like early books, or we say "the first" right, we're not obviously it's almost never the actual first
Jennifer Prokop 24:58 / #
Yeah, right.
Sarah MacLean 24:59 / #
Like the last six months of my life have been researching romance novels for the RITA award ceremony and Andie was doing that with me, and the most illuminating thing about it was that every time we thought we'd found the first like, five days later, we found an earlier first. So, I think we need to talk about betas and we need to talk about Julia Quinn because while she may not have written the first beta, she definitely is responsible for the popularizing of the beta. And that is because she wrote the Bridgerton series which, if you haven't heard of it, you soon will because Shonda Rhimes is turning it into a Netflix series literally as we speak. And the Bridgertons were this kind of, so Julia had written a couple of books beforehand, but sat down and sort of and wrote this really big boisterous family. Eight children who were named in alphabetical order, and they lived in, they were the children of a viscount. And they lived with their single, their widowed mother, in like a big house in London and they had a big country house and they sort of had these like, bright sparkling dialogue... scenes filled with sparkling dialogue and like, not a ton of plot happens in these books. It begins with a book called "The Duke and I." The plot of "the Duke and I," it's a very streamlined, straightforward plot. It doesn't have a lot of like, complex twists and turns and it doesn't have to because the dialogue is so beautiful and the characters are so bright. There's something very soft and wonderful about these books. But what's interesting is that prior to Julia-- historicals looked like, I mean, literally looks like Derek Craven, right? They, they look like, like these big bananas historicals. And then Julia came in and she wrote this family that was something very different. And the first Bridgerton book, which was "The Duke and I" was published in 2000. And I've spoken to I checked this data with Julia before we recorded because I wanted, I have a theory and I wanted to make sure that it checked out. And she confirmed that "The Duke and I" and "The Viscount Who Loved Me" and "An Offer From a Gentleman," which were published in 2000, 2000, and 2001, we're all very, did very well but like did not blow the doors off. "The Duke and I" did not come out like "50 Shades," although often we think about that as being one of those books now. In fact, the fourth book in the series, which is "Romancing Mr. Bridgerton" is the book that sort of really was the sort of leap into huge for that series. And that book came out in 2002. And I have a theory that, you know, we've talked on this on this podcast and I've talked a lot in the world about post 9/11. There being this kind of boom in paranormal because readers were looking for these like big, huge alphas who could literally save the universe. And they were like, that was safety in fear and sort of existential fear that Americans were feeling post 9/11. But I'm actually wondering if at the same time, we weren't also going through a period where books were getting softer. And there was room for these like soft heroes who were the antithesis of every romance hero we'd seen before. And I'm wondering if we're seeing that now, too. The sort of rise of dark romance on one side, these kinds of like, truly bananas books that are taking the finger on one side, and something else entirely that's happening now in the world.
Andie Christopher 29:13 / #
I -think you're right. I think that actually that jives with my theory of the cinnamon / # roll and why they're appealing
Sarah MacLean 29:21 / #
so do that.
Andie Christopher 29:23 / #
Okay, so I think they're particularly appealing to sort of millennial and Gen Z. single women, or women who have recently been dating, because the cis hetero men that we are dating are fucking terrible.
Jennifer Prokop 29:43 / #
I'm Sorry I laughed.
Sarah MacLean 29:44 / #
Break it down for us Andie
Andie Christopher 29:46 / #
all we want is a nice guy, who we don't have to raise, who doesn't hate us because we don't want to have sex with them right away. Or doesn't think we're a slut if we do who can use his words and cares about whether we have an orgasm-- in a larger sense of than what it says about his own ego. Someone who can actually be a partner instead of someone who is going to destroy your like--who's gonna take your finger. But I think on the other, on the other side of that, you also if you don't if you're dating a lot of, you know, softer gentlemen, who can't make a plan to save their lives. There's an appeal to reading about a man who wants you so much he will, he will plan an abduction. And I think this was like the first thing I said..
Sarah MacLean 29:56 / #
He will plan...nice
Andie Christopher 30:39 / #
..to Kristin Ashley and I did make her laugh. I was like, I think the appeal of like abduction fiction because I think she was talking about alpha heroes. Like, at least this guy can plan a date.
Jennifer Prokop 31:06 / #
Oh my god,
Sarah MacLean 31:08 / #
don't abduct women, male listeners!
Andie Christopher 31:12 / #
Do not, don't abduct women, but, you know, make a dinner reservation. Don't say, yeah, like where do you want to go? say I want to try this restaurant-- What do you think? it's all about the balance.
Jennifer Prokop 31:26 / #
Can I ask a question? I'm going to throw it out there. I, I do not read, I don't read much inspirational romance unless it's written by Piper Huguley. But I am wondering if the rise of Amish romance, and sort of Christian romance, around the same time-- because my understanding is it's also came about at the same time. If cinnamon / # rolls are essentially a secular version of of a like a more...Like a inspirational hero?
Sarah MacLean 32:05 / #
I don't know. I don't know and I don't know enough about inspirational to be able to speak really thoughtfully on it.
Jennifer Prokop 32:13 / #
I mean, well, maybe we'll just throw it out there for our listeners to do
Sarah MacLean 32:16 / #
if you do. I would love to hear that. You know, Andie thinks that Sierra Simone is out there writing betas.
Andie Christopher 32:24 / #
I didn't say he wasa Beta, I said he was like a little bit of a cinnamon / # roll.
Sarah MacLean 32:30 / #
He's the Conrad Wroth of...
Jennifer Prokop 32:32 / #
Yeah, yeah. He's gonna use that icing for Lub, I mean, I don't know.
Andie Christopher 32:37 / #
Can we talk about stern brunch Daddies.
Jennifer Prokop 32:39 / #
Oh, yeah, sure.
Andie Christopher 32:41 / #
Okay, so this is this is all Sarah's fault.
Sarah MacLean 32:44 / #
It's Andie's genius, though.
Andie Christopher 32:47 / #
Yeah, I did come up with the term. So Sarah posted this picture of Oscar Isaac sitting at like a table, at what looks like a restaurant, like holding a fork and like staring intently at the camera, and she's like, okay, Andie, I see him now. AI was like, Oh, I get what you like you like a stern brunch daddy. A guy who is gonna make sure your Mimosa never goes empty, but then he'll like spank you until you cry later.
Jennifer Prokop 33:11 / #
Sure, sure.
Sarah MacLean 33:13 / #
I mean, he would never allow you to be seated by the kitchen.
Andie Christopher 33:16 / #
Never. Like never he wants to talk to the manager.
Sarah MacLean 33:21 / #
It's true. This is only because I have Chris Evans blindness, meaning if he doesn't look Stern, I don't see him. I'm unable to see him and I have that problem with Oscar Isaac too, because I feel like if he doesn't look Stern, I don't even know what I'm looking at us like a blank face.
Andie Christopher 33:39 / #
Yeah, I mean, he has to serve up a little bit of Derek Craven for you to feel it.
Sarah MacLean 33:43 / #
Precisely. Which is why we're doing this podcast, this episode, because I don't I truly want to understand it. Because it's interesting and I think that what we're coming to is that it is in actual fact a exactly two sides of the same coin. Because everything that, you know, every way that we're articulating this in terms of like care and comfort and protection-- or not protection-- but care and comfort and like ease, right, like softness is ultimately what we want from the alpha on the other side. But it's it's almost like we're talking about when you get to see it in the book, like,
Andie Christopher 33:44 / #
Yeah,
Sarah MacLean 33:44 / #
do you see the transformation in the book? And if you do, it's like that. Then you've started as you know, I'm air quoting. You can't see it, but
Andie Christopher 34:40 / #
right.
Jennifer Prokop 34:41 / #
I don't know. I. I feel like because where
Sarah MacLean 34:45 / #
does the transformation come from the storm brunch?
Andie Christopher 34:47 / #
He just is
Jennifer Prokop 34:48 / #
I feel like cinnamon / # role heroes don't transform--- I feel like heroines do. Their romantic partners transform not them.
Sarah MacLean 34:56 / #
So when you think about Rafe, what's the transformation in the book?
Jennifer Prokop 35:00 / #
It's not, that's, okay. So I think the transformation in the book is for the heroine who in this case her ex husband is real dirtbag. And this is it's the only man she's ever been with. And so to be with Rafe to be with someone who respects, her who--she's this amazing surgeon, right? Who, who she can say, "I want you to make this easy for me" and he listens to her. I mean, it is just a transformitive-- like Andie was saying-- it's a transformative experience for her because she has been used to men disrespecting her and now she does not have to suffer that in her home. Right? And, and, and deep dicking into next week. I mean, this guy really knows how to take care of her in every way. So, but he, I do not see him as being a character who really undergoes change. He is--
Sarah MacLean 35:51 / #
Would we say like, they're, they're perfect from the start? Because Michael in "The Kiss Quotient" is pretty fucking perfect.
Jennifer Prokop 36:00 / #
Well, here's here's what I would suggest, because I actually don't know that I think they're opposites as much as I think it's just trying to achieve something different. And you're, as you were talking, I guess I would say this: to me, the alpha is like, I am pursuing what I want and that's also going to end up being what the heroine wants, we're going to figure it out together. But to me, a cinnamon / # roll hero-- if it's male, female romance-- is like, I know who I am. And I'm pretty happy and I'm wildly attracted to this woman. So my goal is to make sure she's getting what she wants. And I do think that those are different. That's, that's how it reads to me. When it works.
Jennifer Prokop 36:43 / #
I mean, that's what Michael wants, right for Stella in "The Kiss Quotient." He's like, what do you need from me? What what, how can I move you along this path that you're on? Now? I think he does undergo a journey.
Sarah MacLean 36:54 / #
Okay. But here's the thing, A lot of people came at us on Twitter about this and they were like, they were like, The problem with alphas, the problem with alphas is that they never want, they never want to hold up women and give women what they need. Right? They don't want women to have jobs. They don't want women to, you know, they don't want to support women in their careers or whatever. Right. And I think that that's a really interesting, and that's sort of what you're not saying, You're not in the extreme like that. But like, you're sort of dancing around that too. And that doesn't make very much sense to me in a modern role, like maybe the old romances? In a modern romance-- I've never written a hero who's like, "now you stay home, you don't get to keep running your bar" instead Haven has office in the bar now.
Jennifer Prokop 37:39 / #
So to me, if that's what an alpha is, I don't like it.
Sarah MacLean 37:44 / #
Yeah, well, if there's a parity issue that I think like gets lost in the argument here. Like,
Jennifer Prokop 37:51 / #
I just think alpha heroes if if we're comparing them and I don't even honestly know if it's that useful. Like maybe it's just different things entirely.
Sarah MacLean 38:00 / #
Maybe we're just spinning our wheels.
Andie Christopher 38:01 / #
I think it's hard to write like a really, really close to pure alpha in a contemporary romance Are you like you believe that you want, you would want to be in that same kind of relationship? And so to a certain extent, you know, there's still like alpha heroes and contemporary romance, obviously. But I think they're tempered to a certain degree. If your goal is to write a book that isn't like escapist.
Sarah MacLean 38:31 / #
right Right, right. Yeah. Fantasy right like if it's not you know, 50 shades like billionaire
Andie Christopher 38:40 / #
or like a motorcycle club. If it's not, it's not like um, you know, sort of a world you don't live in right?
Sarah MacLean 38:47 / #
It's not a Harlequin presents,
Andie Christopher 38:49 / #
Right. I mean, I think you can even write like, more pure alphas if you're writing sports romances. You're writing about like, larger than life.
Jennifer Prokop 38:59 / #
I want to go back to me like this really foundational moment in "Rafe" right? She says, "I want you to make this easy for me." And he as a cinnamon / # roll understands that what that means is I'm My job is to figure out what she needs and give it to her. I think if you said to an alpha, I want you to make this easy for me, he'd be like, "great, Just do what I want." And I don't think that means like, don't have a job. I think that just means like, Don't make me feel feelings. Right? Like let's just like have all the sex and stuff. I don't know!
Sarah MacLean 39:31 / #
I don't think it would be, "Don't." I don't think it would be "don't-- just do what I want." I think it would be like "Fine. Who do I pay to fix this problem?"
Jennifer Prokop 39:42 / #
Yes, Right.
Sarah MacLean 39:43 / #
Who do I punch to make you feel better? Like for an alpha he's he's a battering ram. He's like, "What do I have to break to make you happy?"
Jennifer Prokop 39:55 / #
When she says this to Rafe, and I like I said, I think this moment, To me it really spoke to, At its core what it was, when she said, "I just want you to make this easy for me." He understand that. That meant she meant,
Sarah MacLean 40:06 / #
emotionally
Jennifer Prokop 40:07 / #
I'm a little, I'm a little afraid of making decisions. I'm a little tentative, I'm not sure. And his response was, like, "come down here. We're going to figure it out together." Right, which I'm going to tell you it really works for me. I think it's really sexy at every level, but just in a totally different way.
Sarah MacLean 40:24 / #
Yeah, no, I mean, who doesn't want that?
Jennifer Prokop 40:26 / #
Yes. Right.
Sarah MacLean 40:27 / #
That's great.
Jennifer Prokop 40:29 / #
I'm just saying, I think how if I said to Derek Craven-- just make this easy for me-- He's like, good! Leave and go back to Greenwood Corners, so I don't have to think about you because you're freaking me out.
Andie Christopher 40:43 / #
And I mean, like St. Vincent would be like, maybe we should bone. An orgasm will make you feel better.
Sarah MacLean 40:50 / #
Right? But in real life, I mean, this of course, makes perfect sense. In theory, it's it's the moment where you say, I have words Or I have concerns or I have, you know, whatever. And the response is I want I hear that and I want to act to fix them. Like that's a, that's a noble thing. Like, I wish we all had that every day.
Jennifer Prokop 41:15 / #
Well, and I mean, maybe that's the fantasy: that they never tire of us being needy. I mean, I don't know, I mean, I think it's, I liked what Andie said a lot. It's not this idea that someone if we said-- I just want you to make it-- sometimes I literally say to Darrell, he's like, "what do you want for dinner" and I say, "I just want you to decide, that's what I want." Like, literally, that's what I want. I want you to decide I want you to make that decision. I just want you to make dinner appear in front of me. That is what care looks like to me right now.
Andie Christopher 41:48 / #
I mean, there's that there's that meme that you just say "I'm baby." So there's that like, you sometimes just want to like walk in the door and be like, I'm Baby, I get all of the like love and attention and coddling; as opposed to, I feel like, this like applies to some of my friends who you know are in relationships, especially hetero relationships that they feel like they're doing a lot more work.
Jennifer Prokop 42:23 / #
You know what this reminds me of. Okay, so back when I did TFA right after I was out of college, I had a roommate named Amy. And Amy would say the thing that, the first time she said it, I was like, that's the truest fucking thing I've ever heard. She'd had a fight with her boyfriend. And I don't remember exactly how it came up. She was fighting with him, she had this really tumultuous relationship. And she said to me, she's like, "you know, you can't ask for flowers." And like what it meant was if you have to ask for the flowers in order to get them, they mean less. A gesture-- a romantic gesture-- has to be driven by the other person. They have to know that what you need or want is flowers, or that right it comes out of nowhere. And I feel like you would never have to ask a fucking cinnamon / # roll for flowers. You would have to say though, to many alpha heroes: flowers are an actual sign of affection and every once in a while if you bring them to me, I will be happy
Sarah MacLean 43:29 / #
Well, it's it's interesting because there's also I'm sort of like dancing around in my I'm like playing over and over my head this idea that like there's something here about toxic masculinity. Which is these heroes lack that kind of toxicity. They are masculine without toxicity. I retweeted somebody today who was trying to explain, just because we don't want toxic masculinity doesn't mean we don't want masculinity. We don't want acid rain, but We still want rain. I think that's a really useful, Shit. What's a call from the SATs?
Jennifer Prokop 44:10 / #
An analogy?
Andie Christopher 44:12 / #
metaphor?
Sarah MacLean 44:14 / #
With the blank colon blank
Jennifer Prokop 44:16 / #
An analogy.
Sarah MacLean 44:18 / #
Yeah, whatever. It's a really useful one of those-- I think there's something there, essentially it's pure, it's and I do think it's contemporaries more than anything else that are doing, this because I mean, if Andie to Andie's point--- it's terrible out there, right? It's like that mement in "When Harry Met Sally" when You know, Carrie Fisher leans back and turns to Bruno Kirby and is like,
movie dialogue 44:52 / #
Tell me I'll never have to be out there again.
Jennifer Prokop 44:54 / #
Yes, that's right.
Sarah MacLean 44:57 / #
This is the moment
Andie Christopher 44:59 / #
I feel like there's all these studies that people, like millennials and Gen Zers or is are literally not fucking. Like Gen Z does not fuck
Jennifer Prokop 45:13 / #
Sad.
Andie Christopher 45:15 / #
I mean it's it's real sad, it's sad for me...on a personal level. But that's why I'm glad we have Sierra Simone in the world. Anyway, but it's real bad, and so it like you just want like a guy who is like, I was thinking-- I want a guy who's gonna open my door for me, and like smack my ass on the way out, but he's gonna know he has permission. Um, he's already he's gonna make sure that's okay. But not like in a needy or clingy way.
Jennifer Prokop 45:50 / #
Yeah, I mean, there are no consent issues with...
Sarah MacLean 45:53 / #
but this is such a fantasy. I mean, what you just asked for Andy is like fucking impossible
Jennifer Prokop 45:59 / #
That is more of a fantasy than anything else, right?
Sarah MacLean 46:01 / #
And that's more, that's more of a fantasy than any of these fucking alphas. The idea that-- well, I want him to get consent, but I want to make sure but he can't be too weird about getting consent, it can't feel needy or unsexy, right? You want it to be both sexy and also very clear. And you know, I wanted to smack my ass, but also respect me. And that's not to say that all of this isn't totally reasonable. But here's what's interesting. That takes, in real life, a long time to build with a partner. But like in these books, these guys just have it all.
Andie Christopher 46:38 / #
Yeah, that's what I mean. I that's when I went when I was like writing the hero in "Not the girl you Marry," I specifically set him up as he has been the perfect boyfriend his entire life, and he's failed at relationships. And that's kind of where he starts. So I tried to like have a cinnamon / # roll with a journey. But I still wanted him to be virtually perfect.
Jennifer Prokop 47:06 / #
Of course I think about um, you know, so many of Christina Lauren's recent heores have been this way-- this kind of truly perfect guy who just hasn't fit right.
Andie Christopher 47:21 / #
And I feel like a lot of Kate Clayborn's heroes are that way, they have either definitely flawed and human and layered, but they're not, you never question that they respect the heroine. That's never of question, and and see her as an equal.
Sarah MacLean 47:42 / #
I'm wondering if this is part of why we're seeing, that we've seen so so many fake engagement stories, too, recently? Yeah. Because you know, in our fake engagement episode, Jen and I talked about the fact that like the fan, the fake engagement is like Like, play acting that fantasy relationship. And in order for that to happen, well, cinnamon / # roll hero can do that.
Andie Christopher 48:11 / #
Yeah, and it's also like a cinnamon / # roll hero like you're faking that perfect relationship. Plus he acts like a human Flak Jacket at something like a wedding.
Jennifer Prokop 48:21 / #
Yeah. You know what I keep thinking? When we talked about alphas, the thing we said was it's the fantasy of the alpha is that the patriarchy can be tamed. I think the fantasy of the cinnamon / # roll is that the patriarchy does not have to be trained. They already come in, they're coming fully trained, but they're fully human. Right? Like, there's no way in which-- they have their feelings, they, they understand consent, like they help, you know, literal helpers around the home and whatever way. I mean, you know, maybe that's it. It's like taming versus training.
Sarah MacLean 49:00 / #
Or maybe I would go one step further maybe this fantasy is the patriarchy doesn't exist.
Jennifer Prokop 49:08 / #
They are still masculine.
Sarah MacLean 49:11 / #
Well, that doesn't mean that --it's not, Again, they're just not acid rain?
Andie Christopher 49:17 / #
It doesn't exist within this one human. It hasn't like it hasn't rotted that person to his core. You don't have to send them to therapy for 10 years before you can even talk to him.
Jennifer Prokop 49:28 / #
Yeah. Or that the Yeah, maybe that's right. The patriarchy has not ruined them.
Andie Christopher 49:36 / #
Yeah, cuz like a lot of the ones you get you know, if you're just trolling on Tinder you're like, Oh, wow. Oh, wow, you're-- this is this is spoiled. I'm just so mean. I'm so mean. That that's why I'm single is because I mean. You're like, oh, your shirtless picture with like the, you know, sleeping tiger. Just show that you're dick is huge. That? That's rotted to the core. I'm not a cinnamon / # roll and not an alpha really either.
Sarah MacLean 50:09 / #
No Well that's the other thing right? There's this like, perception of alpha as incel. And like that ain't it either.
Andie Christopher 50:17 / #
So no, because an alpha wouldn't-- as opposed to an incel--an alpha would never tell like the heroine she's ugly in order to like, get her to like him, or to get her to care about...
Sarah MacLean 50:33 / #
Yeah, no negging allowed.
Andie Christopher 50:37 / #
Yeah, I think we solved it. You guys, I think.
Jennifer Prokop 50:40 / #
All right, fair.
Sarah MacLean 50:41 / #
Well, now Andie, you have a book coming out with a cinnamon / # roll hero.
Andie Christopher 50:46 / #
I do.
Sarah MacLean 50:47 / #
My favorite kind of heroine, the unlikable kind.
Andie Christopher 50:50 / #
She, so what Jen was saying earlier about like the sort of the cinnamon / # roll hero being A foil to a heroine and who has a bigger journey--. And so a lot of the people who've read early copies of "Not the Girl You Marry," which is out on November 12, have said, most people talk about the heroine, Hannah. And part of that is because I basically poured so much myself into that character. It's a version of the trope in "How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days" with the gender roles updated. The heroine is biracial, It's set in Chicago, which is a place that I've lived. And Jack is a cinnamon / # roll. He's always been the perfect boyfriend. He's a literal, honest to God, choir boy. And he like falls instantly in love with the heroine who is giving him the finger at a bar and He works for like a BuzzFeed like type publication. And he's like a video guy. And he does how- to's. And so his boss tasks him with how to lose a girl, and he, he, the only girl he's met of late is Hannah. And so he sets about losing her by doing all of the terrible things that guys who are spoiled by toxic masculinity do-- like sending dick pics, not being communicative, Trying to make her jealous, all of that dumb shit. And she's an event planner, and she wants to get into weddings, but she's very, very soured on romance and her boss is like, "you don't even believe in love." She's like, "Yes, I do. I'll show you. I just met a guy. I have a boyfriend." And so she like has to continue dating Jack to convince her boss that she's not completely soured on the concept of love. And then high jinks ensue. But her journey really is the more angsty emotional journey. She has to come to believe that she deserves love and belonging from not only jack but from her friends who have been trying to offer it to her. So she has to learn to make herself vulnerable. Jack, on the other hand has to learn to stand up for himself a little bit more and take into account what he wants and, you know, not just surrender to whatever like his girlfriend was. And in that way, he basically has to get Hannah to respect him in a way. Not that he's soft. He's like, I mean, he is soft, but he's not. He's a little like I described him as a cinnamon / # roll from the corner of the pan. He is crusty and
Jennifer Prokop 53:54 / #
that's actually amazing.
Sarah MacLean 53:56 / #
Perfect. Well, so not the girl you marry is out November 12. You can pre order it now from all your favorite bookstores. And we will put links to it in show notes. And Andie, what comes and after that? There's a companion.
Andie Christopher 54:21 / #
There's a second one. So they're both standalone. The second book, it's called "Not that Kind of Guy" has a character from the first book in it and it's actually a workplace romance between assistant State's Attorney in Chicago and her much younger intern who comes from an extremely wealthy, politically connected family. And she sort of just like thinks he's a twerp, like a very attractive twerp. Um, and he is madly in love with on first sight, which is a theme Because that's my id and they're working togethe
Sarah MacLean 55:04 / #
Fated Mates.
Andie Christopher 55:05 / #
It's Fated Mates. I love Fated Mates rope and yeah, high jinks ensue. There's there's a trip to Vegas you know there's a wedding. And yeah, so it's it's still more her journey because she has to like come to terms with the ending of her relationship with her childhood sweetheart and he really just, he needs to learn how to like stand up to his family. Um, so he's he's definitely another cinnamon / # roll because he just, you know, wants to take care of people and he you know, wants people to love him. Um, but he's, he's really hot.
Jennifer Prokop 55:45 / #
Well, that goes will Oh, I mean, that fixes a lot.
Sarah MacLean 55:48 / #
it goes without saying Yeah,
Andie Christopher 55:49 / #
yeah, no, I mean, I fall a little bit in love with him throughout the course of the book. Bridget, the heroine in then the second, in "not that kind of guy" is good friends with her, with the heroine-- becomes good friends with the heroine in the first book. And so there's also that friendship and a sense of found family, which is also it's an id for me in books.
Sarah MacLean 56:21 / #
Well, this is amazing. And I'm so glad that you texted me with your idea about why cinnamon / # rolls work. And I think because I do I mean like, I think you're right. I think Jen and I have been talking-- and not just us, we didn't invent this conversation. But for the last two years we've seen this sort of evolution and romance and it seems to be going so quickly. And there's this sort of sense of people are calling them you know, they're it's you know: is everything a rom com? What's happening with all these illustrated covers? What are we trying to say with these covers? What are we trying to say with the Books? And I think cinnamon / # rolls are somehow wrapped up in this conversation in a really interesting way. And I'm always interested, as you both know, and why things happen and what these books are doing the work that they're doing. And if it is about pure fantasy, first of all, oh, men do better.
Andie Christopher 57:24 / #
I mean, I think it's, I think it's about like convincing readers -- writing the book for me, "Not the Girl you Marry" is about convincing myself that love was possible in a world as broken as this. But my conclusion is, that thesis is, the guy has to be close to perfect. And I think it's like, we don't need to be in relationships. And so I think, why are we in relationships? And I think that's what I think that's what a lot of these books are asking. Like, what are we looking for in partnership? And why bother?
Jennifer Prokop 57:56 / #
You know, the thing I keep thinking about though, the fantasy part, I think is really powerful. And I think romance is really transformative, I think it's often very difficult to sort of, I think the best romances put both characters on a journey. And sometimes that journey happens together and sometimes the journey is a little stronger for one than the other. And I think what I really like about like I said in a cinnamon / # roll, in a male, female, where the cinnamon / # roll is the hero, what I really appreciate the most, is the sense that the heroine's journey is really highlighted. And that it his job to like showcase, what she is capable of and like make that possible. And that to me is--you know, not just that such a man exists but that you know, like self acculizatin, like finding yourself, and in a romantic relationship that your romantic partner makes you better and stronger. I mean, that's something we do all deserve. And I think that this is one really powerful way that romance shows that that can happen. I guess that's what I'd say.
Sarah MacLean 59:11 / #
Well, Andie, thank you so much for joining us.
Andie Christopher 59:15 / #
Thank you for having me. It was so much fun.
Sarah MacLean 59:17 / #
Andy, tell everybody where they can find you online.
Andie Christopher 59:21 / #
I am on I am on twitter @authorandieJ, and I'm on Instagram where you'll mostly see pictures of my dog. My Facebook is also @authorandieJ, and I there you'll see a lot of pictures of my dog. And you know, news about books. but I am I'm mostly shouting on Twitter.
Sarah MacLean 59:48 / #
Well, thank you for coming on Fated Mates. Everyone Next week, we'll be back with another deep dive read from season two, And you can find us on Twitter at Fated Mates or on Instagram at Fated Mates pod. You can buy Fated Mates pins from Kelly @resistancebuttons on Jen's website, jenreadsromance.com. Fated Mates is produced by Eric Mortensen and we will see you all next week. Enjoy your cinnamon / # rolls.