full-length episode, trailblazers Jennifer Prokop full-length episode, trailblazers Jennifer Prokop

S04.05: Radclyffe: Trailblazer

This week, we’re continuing our Trailblazer episodes with Radclyffe—author of lesbian romances and founder of the LGBTQIA+ publisher, Bold Strokes Books. We talk about her path to romance as a reader and an author, and a publisher, about the early days of queer romance, about the importance of independent booksellers to the queer community, and about how readers find themselves in books.

Thank you to Radclyffe for taking the time to talk to us, and share her story.

Transcript available

Our next read along is Uzma Jalaluddin’s Hana Kahn Carries On. Find it at: Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo, or at your local indie.

Show Notes

TRANSCRIPT

Radclyffe 00:00:00 / #: What we're seeing in romance fiction has changed unbelievably from 50 years ago in terms of sexual content, gender diversity, the issues that are dealt with, the power of romance that most people do not appreciate is that you can write about anything. You can write about all the challenges of human life in a way that readers will find approachable, that they will relate to, they will think about, there's nothing else that does that. I'm a little prejudiced, but still it's an incredibly powerful genre.

Sarah MacLean 00:00:38 / #: That was Radclyffe the next in our Trailblazers series. Welcome everyone to Fated Mates. I'm Sarah MacLean. I read romance novels and I write them.

Jennifer Prokop 00:00:49 / #: And I'm Jennifer Prokop. I am a romance reader and critic.

Sarah MacLean 00:00:54 / #: And Radclyffe is the founder of Bold Strokes Books, which is an important LGBTQ publisher. She is a writer and one of the important and long-time voices for lesbian and queer romance.

Jennifer Prokop 00:01:12 / #: Today we'll be talking about her journey to romance, the founding of Bold Strokes Books, why it is important for LGBTQ publishers to exist, and how the romance landscape for queer literature, queer bookstores and queer romance has changed in the many years that she has been reading, writing, and publishing.

Sarah MacLean 00:01:33 / #: Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us, Radclyffe. We're thrilled to have you.

Radclyffe 00:01:41 / #: Well, thank you for asking me. I'm really glad to be here.

Sarah MacLean 00:01:44 / #: So we're really interested in journeys and we've talked so much over the years about our journeys as romance readers and writers. So could we start there? Let's start with how you came to write and write romance.

Radclyffe 00:02:01 / #: I think that part of my story, I'm sure you've heard many times before, which is almost and probably experienced yourself, which is anyone who writes has always written things. For me as a small girl growing up, I will say this, in the '50s, there were very few things that I saw in the world around me that reflected what I wished I could do on television or the books that I read, the games that people played. Although I was fortunate to have an older brother, so I learned to play a lot of sports.

00:02:39 / #: So I started writing things when I was really young, putting girls and then women in the scenarios that I didn't get to see anywhere, including in the books that I read. But I didn't really think about writing anything, "Big," quote, unquote, until I was actually a surgery resident, and I was really, really busy and pressured. And it was a world where I also felt like a little bit of an outsider because I was a woman in surgery when there weren't a lot of women in surgery either. So I started writing just to kind of express the parts of myself that weren't being expressed.

00:03:19 / #: So I wrote my first full-length, what I would now call my first lesbian novel in 1980, with absolutely no anticipation that it would ever become anything except this thing that I had written that pleased me. No one ever read it, no one ever saw it. And I just put it in a drawer. And as the years went by, I did that again and again when I had free time, often on my vacations, I would write another one of those until I had eight of them in my drawer. Maybe my girlfriends of the time would read them or one of my best friends, but no one else ever read them and I never anticipated that I would be a, quote, unquote, "Author."

Jennifer Prokop 00:04:00 / #: The difference between growing up in the '50s and the '80s, did you still feel that there was this dearth of stories that you wanted to read? Even then, there was no little change between growing up and then being a doctor?

Radclyffe 00:04:14 / #: That's a great question. And the answer is there was a change, but it wasn't enough of a change or a big enough of a change. And that's another part of my story, a cool part of my story, actually, when I was 12, I used to read everything I could find. And mostly they were paperbacks that came out of the drug stores and supermarkets and whatever my mom was reading.

Sarah MacLean 00:04:34 / #: Same.

Radclyffe 00:04:34 / #: And I somehow-

Jennifer Prokop 00:04:37 / #: One of us.

Radclyffe 00:04:37 / #: Yeah, I somehow, I don't know how, found this book written by Ann Bannon called Beebo Brinker, and I was 12, and it's the first time I ever read anything that had two women involved in it. And I was 12, and I was starting to realize that I wasn't like everyone else. And this book really made a huge impression on me, but I also knew it was probably something that I wasn't supposed to show anybody else. And I kept it behind the other books in my bookcase.

00:05:10 / #: And I didn't hear the word lesbian until I was 18 years old. So it wasn't that, it was a sense in the world around me that what I was feeling was probably not what I ought to be feeling. But that book made a huge impression on me. And I went to school in Philadelphia where one of the country's oldest gay and lesbian bookstores was established, Giovanni's Room.

00:05:35 / #: And in 1973, I discovered in this bookstore that had two shelves and about 10 books, the first lesbian romance that Naiad Press ever published called The Latecomer by Sarah Aldridge. And it was the first lesbian romance I had ever read, although interestingly from a historical point of view, they did not call them romances. They called them lesbian novels at the time for about another eight years. And I read that book like a million times.

Sarah MacLean 00:06:08 / #: Can you ground us with a date for this?

Radclyffe 00:06:11 / #: 1973?

Jennifer Prokop 00:06:12 / #: Now that's when you found it. Was that also when it was published?

Radclyffe 00:06:15 / #: That's when it was published, 1973. Naiad Press was established in 1972 by Barbara Grier and two other women.

Sarah MacLean 00:06:24 / #: Was Naiad exclusively publishing lesbian novels?

Radclyffe 00:06:27 / #: Yes, Barbara Grier and Sarah Aldridge and Muriel Crawford were the three women who established it. And that went on to be the premier lesbian press until the late '90s when Barbara sold it and it changed names. So I would go there every week looking for another book, and there was never another book. They published one nine months later, and then maybe another nine months, and then eventually they would do three or four a year and then two a month, which was like, but that took years to get there. So I started writing my own and I didn't really think about publishing them.

Sarah MacLean 00:07:05 / #: Can you tell us what kind of stories were these?

Radclyffe 00:07:08 / #: My very first one was a western, of course, because when I grew up, I wanted to be a cowboy. I had a little star and I had six shooters, and I played soldiers a lot too, which actually when I tell you about what I write, you'll probably understand exactly why I write what I write. But I was the girl on the block with all boys, and I had an older brother, so I had six shooters and rifles and badges, and I wanted to be a cowboy. So I wrote a western, and it's called Innocent Hearts. And it's the first one I wrote, it's not the first one that was published. I think it was published probably fourth, and it took place in the west around the 1860s or so.

Sarah MacLean 00:07:57 / #: So like historical western?

Jennifer Prokop 00:07:58 / #: Yeah.

Radclyffe 00:07:59 / #: Yeah. It features an 18-year-old rancher. No, she's about 20. And the young woman she gets involved with came from Boston with her family, and her father was going to start a newspaper there. They're both very innocent. When you write in that era with two young women in particular, you really can't use the language we use today. So anyways, that's the first one I wrote because I wanted to be the one with the horse, the guns and the girl.

Sarah MacLean 00:08:30 / #: Nice.

Jennifer Prokop 00:08:33 / #: And so at the time, you said you started with Ann Bannon, and was there a sense of romance as a genre? Did you know you were writing something called a romance?

Radclyffe 00:08:45 / #: I knew I was writing a love story. I didn't really think of it as a genre because I wasn't really thinking about writing and publishing at all. I was just thinking about writing the stories that really moved me and with the kind of characters and the kind of situations that really touched me and I was writing the characters that I wanted to be. One of the next book I wrote was a police officer, which is Safe Harbor, which was the first book that was published. And so that's the next one I wrote. Then I did a police procedural stories, the Justice series with cops.

00:09:28 / #: So throughout the '80s I was writing these books. And I'll tell you a story, which I have told a couple times. In 1988, I decided I would try publishing one of them. So I sent it to Naiad Press, and the submission procedures was a lot different then. You had to send them a little query and tell them about your book and your writing experience and all that sort of thing. And my only writing experience was medical papers. But the publisher at the time would then call you and say, "I would like to read your manuscript." So she called me on a Sunday morning at 7:30 in the morning.

00:10:03 / #: And I should preface the story by saying that I have a tremendous amount of respect for this person. And without her, many of us would not be here. So she called me 7:30, and I told her I had read every book that they'd ever published. And she said, "Well, send your manuscript and let's see if you've been washed in the blood of Naiad." So, "Okay." And I sent it, right?

Jennifer Prokop 00:10:30 / #: Wow. I'm going to start using that phrase with people, "Have you been washed in the blood of Fated Mates?" "Fine."

Radclyffe 00:10:36 / #: Yeah. So I waited and waited and waited, and I'm doing my office hours one afternoon at the hospital, and my secretary gives me this message and it says, "Barbara Grier called." And I'm like, "Oh." So I run to my office and I call her back and she says, "Well, we're interested in publishing this book." She said, "But it's really not very good." And she said, "You're kind of a mediocre author and you'll probably never be anything more than a mediocre author." And I thought-

Jennifer Prokop 00:11:07 / #: My face right now. I know. I'm like, "Ah."

Radclyffe 00:11:11 / #: Please remember what I said about Barbara Grier.

Jennifer Prokop 00:11:13 / #: No.

Sarah MacLean 00:11:13 / #: Yeah.

Jennifer Prokop 00:11:13 / #: Sure, of course, of course.

Radclyffe 00:11:13 / #: She's one of my heroes, okay? And they didn't like the fact that I opened the book with a scene where the major character is at a party and she is drinking a little too much and has a history of using drugs. Now, this was 1980, right?

Jennifer Prokop 00:11:31 / #: Right.

Radclyffe 00:11:32 / #: Because me, I write dark heroes who are wounded and because eventually the process of falling in love allows them to heal those wounds, they have to start there. She wanted me to change that. And I thought about it, and I didn't want to do that. And I said, "I am really honored that you called me, but I don't think I want to do this." And there was complete and total silence on the line for like 30 seconds. I don't think anybody had ever said, "No."

Sarah MacLean 00:12:06 / #: "Barbara, hello?"

Radclyffe 00:12:07 / #: And so that was that. And I was so mad.

Jennifer Prokop 00:12:08 / #: Yeah.

Sarah MacLean 00:12:08 / #: Of course you were.

Radclyffe 00:12:10 / #: I was so mad that I went home and I wrote another book, so that was really inspiring.

Sarah MacLean 00:12:19 / #: Yeah. Well, but I think this is really interesting. I think for a lot of romance writers, often this story is told, this kind of, "I gave it to a gatekeeper, and the gatekeeper said, 'No, no, you can't come in here with this.'" And I mean, it happens with, "You can't have a character who has a history with drugs." It happens with, "You can't have characters who look, love, et cetera, the way that these characters do." And these gatekeepers often say, "Well that, it just doesn't sell or that's just not what romance is."

Jennifer Prokop 00:12:55 / #: There's no market for it.

Sarah MacLean 00:12:56 / #: It doesn't follow the rules. And those of us who have succeeded, many of us have succeeded because we've said, "No, that's not a good rule. I don't want to be gate kept in that way."

Radclyffe 00:13:08 / #: I think the other thing is if you really believe in what you've written and you've written it because you have something to say in a particular way, then that's not the right place for your book. I think in 1988, maybe it wouldn't have sold. Maybe it wouldn't have appealed. She certainly felt that way, and Barbara was very successful. And in later years we were good friends and she was kind enough to tell me once that I was a mistake on her part. So that was really nice of her.

Sarah MacLean 00:13:39 / #: That's nice.

Jennifer Prokop 00:13:40 / #: Yeah, that is nice. You're the one that got away.

Sarah MacLean 00:13:43 / #: Vindication.

Jennifer Prokop 00:13:44 / #: Yeah.

Radclyffe 00:13:47 / #: So I began sharing the things that I had written through fan fiction which is a roundabout way to answer your question. And that was the first time I had really started sharing the things that I had written with people I didn't know with people that I had no idea how they were going to respond to the things that I wrote. But it was a really energizing kind of exhilarating experience to put the things I had written out there and have people comment on them and like them and I became enthusiastic and developed a big fan fiction following. I was writing X-Files fan fiction.

Jennifer Prokop 00:14:23 / #: Oh, right on. Yeah, sure.

Sarah MacLean 00:14:25 / #: Perfect. A good fandom too to be a part of.

Jennifer Prokop 00:14:30 / #: Sure, right.

Radclyffe 00:14:30 / #: Yeah, it was great. It suited me really well. And I had created fan fiction with an original character called Marshall Black who became Scully's lover. And people afterwards have said, "I started reading watching the X-Files, but I couldn't find Marsh in the stories," because they were looking for her. So I started a website and I put the original fiction that I had written all those years ago on my website.

Sarah MacLean 00:14:56 / #: Does this still exist?

Radclyffe 00:14:58 / #: Yes, it does, on my RedFic.com website. It's still there. Three publishers contacted me and wanted to publish my original fiction just out of the blue. And I really, well, naively number one, I said yes to everybody, which was a bad mistake. And number two, I had to think really hard about whether I wanted to do that. Whether I wanted to hand it over. Whether I wanted to sort of give away ownership of this work because I understood that being published, that's what happens and that is what happens.

00:15:32 / #: And I think that as authors, we have to understand that, that we enter into a partnership that isn't always a partnership because we have similar goals, but not always the same goals. But I said yes, and I loved the process. As soon as I started publishing, I wanted to understand everything about it, and that's what led to me eventually starting my own company.

Sarah MacLean 00:15:55 / #: Yeah. So talk a little bit about Bold Strokes Books and how that came to be?

Radclyffe 00:16:02 / #: It pretty much grew out of my experience with publishing with these small publishers. And I call them small publishers, mostly because of the model, and it's not in a negative way at all, but they were POD publishers, relatively small.

Jennifer Prokop 00:16:16 / #: So that, everybody, means print-on-demand.

Radclyffe 00:16:18 / #: Which is not what it is today. Today print-on-demand pretty much rolls right over into all of the pretty much normal distribution, but at that time it didn't.

Jennifer Prokop 00:16:27 / #: What year do you think this was?

Radclyffe 00:16:31 / #: About 2000. Yeah, and Safe Harbor was published in 2001.

Sarah MacLean 00:16:34 / #: Do the publishers still exist?

Radclyffe 00:16:36 / #: One of them does. That was Regal Crest Enterprises, and it's just this past year changed hands and I believe changed names, but some of the same authors. But the other two, one went out of business very quickly and the other one went out of business after she failed to pay anyone royalties.

Jennifer Prokop 00:16:54 / #: Well, some things-

Radclyffe 00:16:56 / #: That happens.

Jennifer Prokop 00:16:56 / #: That will happen [inaudible 00:16:57 / #], yeah.

Radclyffe 00:16:58 / #: That does happen. So I very quickly realized that the model wasn't going to work because it limited distribution and it limited exposure of the titles. And I learned that from going to some bookstores, particularly in Provincetown. And one of my first books was set in Provincetown, it's Safe Harbors, the first in the Provincetown Tales, and they wouldn't order it or couldn't order it because of the way it was being produced. And I thought, this is not right.

Jennifer Prokop 00:17:27 / #: And it's worth saying Provincetown is like a premier vacation destination in the summer for many gay and lesbian Americans.

Radclyffe 00:17:37 / #: That is true.

Jennifer Prokop 00:17:37 / #: This is like my brother and his partner were there this summer. It's ground zero.

Radclyffe 00:17:41 / #: So was I, everybody went back as soon as we could get out.

Jennifer Prokop 00:17:44 / #: And that's it. So what I'm saying, this is what I want people to understand, if Provincetown couldn't get their hands on this book. So I just think it's really important to place that in-

Radclyffe 00:17:53 / #: Yeah, the context. And that said to me that this model is not going to work. And it wasn't just about my books, it was about all of our books because if queer authors didn't have access to the same kind of distribution and exposure and marketing that everyone else got, we would not reach our readership. And that to me has always been critical.

Sarah MacLean 00:18:17 / #: To that end, can we talk about what we would call traditional publishing today? The kind of big five, at the time there were many more than five, but the big houses.

Radclyffe 00:18:27 / #: Now there's like four and a half or something.

Jennifer Prokop 00:18:27 / #: Yeah.

Sarah MacLean 00:18:30 / #: Right, it's just the numbers are dwindling. What did romance look like there?

Jennifer Prokop 00:18:36 / #: Or queer fiction even?

Sarah MacLean 00:18:37 / #: Or, yeah-

Jennifer Prokop 00:18:38 / #: I mean maybe-

Sarah MacLean 00:18:38 / #: ... I mean-

Jennifer Prokop 00:18:38 / #: ... queer romances and even-

Radclyffe 00:18:40 / #: In the mainstream?

Jennifer Prokop 00:18:40 / #: Yeah.

Sarah MacLean 00:18:41 / #: Yeah.

Jennifer Prokop 00:18:41 / #: Or did it exist at all?

Radclyffe 00:18:43 / #: Not much. I mean, if I think back to that time, I will say this, in the late '60s and early '70s, mainstream publishers were publishing mostly in paperback. And there were a lot of works featuring both lesbians and gay men for a brief period of time. Fawcett and the paperbacks, that's where Anne Bannon's books were published. One of the very first lesbian romances, a Place of our Own was actually published, and I don't remember which mainstream publishers, but then it disappeared and I'm not sure why.

Jennifer Prokop 00:19:22 / #: When was Sarah Waters writing? When was Tipping the Velvet?

Radclyffe 00:19:26 / #: I would say in the '90s. Remember, it's also British and-

Jennifer Prokop 00:19:31 / #: Not short.

Radclyffe 00:19:32 / #: ... not traditionally romance. Her books are historical works, and that's how they were marketed well.

Jennifer Prokop 00:19:38 / #: That's how they kind of... okay.

Sarah MacLean 00:19:38 / #: And then Anne Allen Shockley was writing for Avon before Avon was HarperCollins, but when Avon was a pulp fiction house?

Radclyffe 00:19:47 / #: Yes. And that was 1971, I think.

Sarah MacLean 00:19:51 / #: The early '70s. Yeah.

Radclyffe 00:19:52 / #: Right, so it was a very small window. And I don't know what actually happened culturally, socially, at around that time to basically say to publishers, "We're not going to sell enough of them." Maybe they just didn't sell enough of those books. I do know that over the years when there were several very, very, very popular lesbian authors, for example, particularly writing mysteries, and they got picked up by mainstream publishers, they didn't make it. They didn't sell enough to continue to publish with them. And I think part of it is audience size, and I just think it's a smaller audience.

Sarah MacLean 00:20:35 / #: Okay. So we have these small publishers in the early thousands, early 2000s that are trying to make a go of it, but they can't get the print on demand books into stores. And then you think to yourself, what?

Radclyffe 00:20:50 / #: I think we need the same model that everybody else has. So I very naively, since I don't know anything about publishing except what I've been doing, decide I'm going to start a publishing company, but the very first thing I did was figure out how to get distribution. And I was very fortunate that at just about the same time, another lesbian publisher of size had decided that she wanted to start a distribution company. So she said-

Sarah MacLean 00:21:17 / #: And who is that?

Radclyffe 00:21:18 / #: Bella Books, Linda Hill. And I'm just a small fry. So Linda said, "If you're interested, I'm going to start this distribution company and we can, essentially, umbrella your books into our distribution system." And I said, "Yes," which from the get-go gave me mainstream distribution.

00:21:37 / #: So all of our print books have always been distributed like everybody else's. And then the challenge became getting the people at the other end to actually buy them. That's a different story.

00:21:50 / #: So we've had mainstream distribution from the beginning and that gave the authors that I signed I think, the best chance for international exposure and to get into bookstores and libraries and places that they couldn't at the time.

Sarah MacLean 00:22:04 / #: So how were you finding authors at this point? Because obviously there's no shortage of authors to find, but what's the vision at this point for you?

Radclyffe 00:22:14 / #: I'll tell you the mission statement. There were two things that I wanted to do. I wanted to publish quality queer fiction, and I did not want to only publish lesbian fiction. So my goal was always to publish queer fiction. That was good stuff, and I wanted to create a platform to support authors and help them with their careers. So those were my two goals, and that's what we've worked on since the company has started.

00:22:47 / #: Early on, most of the authors that I signed were people that I had met at conventions and FanFic places, so a lot of them came out of fan fiction that first year. I think every single one of the authors I signed had been writing fan fiction.

00:23:03 / #: And then as we began to create a profile and our books were out there and we were going to events and people were getting to know us, we began to expand. And it's been years since and some of the authors still write fan fiction, because they really like it, but they're not coming out of the fan fiction community anymore. Not in any large numbers at all for at least a decade, probably more.

Jennifer Prokop 00:23:27 / #: I think one of the things that's really changed is if you had asked me in 2000 if a lesbian romance was for me, I probably would've said like, "No." But now I do feel like that romance readers who love romance read all kinds of romance as those times have changed. Or maybe you feel like they haven't. Do you still think there's the perception that the queer fiction and romances that you are publishing are only for queer readers? Do you see that that's changed on your end or is that just me being like pie in the sky?

Radclyffe 00:24:00 / #: It's hard because as you know, from a demographic point of view, you can't pinpoint who is buying a book. But I think overall, there's not very much crossover. I know that there is some, there's certainly, when I was writing fan fiction, I know that there were people who would write and say, "I'm straight," so that I would know that and say, "But I love it."

00:24:21 / #: People tell me that they give their books, my authors tell me they give their books to people in the office, and some of them really like it. But I don't know that those are people who are seeking out these works. But it's very much like if you look at how do people find books, it's very often word of mouth or personal recommendation. And I think that you're probably far more aware of what's out there. I think the average reader would still think, "This is not for me. I won't to understand it, or I won't relate to it, or it's not my life."

Jennifer Prokop 00:24:56 / #: And I just want to say, I don't want to suggest that you should be writing for the straight gaze, but I just was curious if in the 20 years you have seen a difference. So I just wanted to not sound like a [inaudible 00:25:09 / #].

Radclyffe 00:25:09 / #: I mean, I can tell from our reading community because we have a really vibrant web store and we sell a lot online, and we've really pushed for direct to customer sales, that it's mostly still queer. But again, I don't know, but I think it's probably a tiny percentage. I would love it if it wasn't, I mean, people have often said, "Oh, well, probably it's men buying your books." Hallelujah. I would love for men to buy my books. Please buy my books. But it isn't, it's lesbians and other queers.

Sarah MacLean 00:25:44 / #: We're sponsored this week by Radish, Romance that Feels You. Radish is a comprehensive romance fiction library penned by talented, popular writers, bottomless content, one cute app. So what I think is interesting about Radish is that aside from being a kind of huge catalog based on many, many, many tropes, it's really, really well-structured.

Jennifer Prokop 00:26:06 / #: Oh, it is a romance reader's dream. I mean, honestly, if you haven't played around with it, it has everything so clearly organized and really easy to understand. And I feel like at Radish, they really have the finger on the pulse of what a romance reader wants to read and the most popular tropes.

Sarah MacLean 00:26:27 / #: Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of conversation right now in romance, in the romance ether about tropes and why we love them so much and why we're also compulsively brought to them. And I think Radish gets that, but also I think it's a pretty cool system. So the way that Radish works is you pay per episode, which is a little bit like a chapter, but you don't actually pay for the whole book. You just pay for usually about the first 10 or 15 chapters or 10 or 15 episodes are free. And then there are coins to pay for the rest of the book if you want them to go quickly or you can just wait.

Jennifer Prokop 00:27:06 / #: Right, or you can just wait because the new episode will release every hour. And that's really great. I think I found that I really love Radish when I'm running errands, I'm waiting for the car wash, things where I can just, I only have a minute or two to read something and I can get to the end of the chapter. But oh, then I'm home and the next chapter is available for me.

Sarah MacLean 00:27:26 / #: Yeah, and if you are a chaotic reader like me and you read lots of books at the same time, this is actually pretty great because Radish will remind you when a new chapter is available of any of the 25 stories that you're reading. So anyway, if you're a romance reader and we know you all are and you've never tried Radish or you've been thinking about Radish, give it a try.

00:27:49 / #: Our friends there are offering 24 free coins when you sign up through the special link radish.social/fatedmates, you can use those coins to read a book that we've recommended here on another episode, or you can try one of their exclusive episodic series that just go on and on like soap operas. Either way, we think it's something any enthusiastic romance fan will want to check out.

Jennifer Prokop 00:28:15 / #: Thanks again to Radish for sponsoring our show.

Sarah MacLean 00:28:21 / #: At this point, you're really starting to leave a mark, right? I mean, this is your one of Bold Strokes becomes a premier queer publisher, one of the ones that people in the industry have heard of and know and trust. And so I'm curious at this point, who's your community here? Who are the authors who you are feeling are your family here? Who are the other people in publishing who are supporting you?

Radclyffe 00:28:53 / #: There are. When I started, there was a lot of support. I think there was when I started Bold Strokes Books, it was 2004. So queer publishing was still very fragmented and small. There was one big gay male publisher, Alyson, and then there was Naiad out here, and then Bella was Naiad's. Naiad became Bella when Linda bought it, and little here and little there.

00:29:18 / #: So everybody kind of felt like more of a community than we do today in a different way. It was fragmented then because we were geographically separated and probably financially separated, and we didn't have the avenues of marketing that we have today. So there was a fair amount of support from other publishers. Most of the authors came out of the reading community, they were reading these books, they wanted to write these books, and that's where they came from.

00:29:47 / #: Now they're coming, I think, primarily, again, they're all readers, but they're coming internationally, not people that I have individually met early on. Many of the authors I met at events and conferences and could talk to them and they would pitch to me. So there was a much more one-on-one very early. But now we're bigger and we get lots more submissions. So I don't personally know everyone. Our authors are super tight.

00:30:14 / #: When we have a newbie, all of our authors contact them, we put them in contact right away. It's really important, as I'm sure you know, when you write, it's a very solitary experience and we really try to create a community. I want them to know that this is a real company. It doesn't exist out there in the ether somewhere. This is a real entity. There are people behind it that work to help them publish their works, help them better their craft. We introduce them to everyone.

00:30:48 / #: For me personally, my wife, who basically when I said, "Well, I think I'm going to retire from medicine and start this company, and I have no idea if it's going to do anything." And she was just finishing her postdoc. And so we had to move. So we sold our car and we sold our house, and I didn't make any money from the company for almost three years. Just put money in because you got to put money in to publish those books and nobody pays you for a long time.

00:31:18 / #: And I was really fortunate, the people that are with me now have been with me from the beginning. Many of them, my editors, my graphic artists, the authors, we have a very low attrition rate. People do not leave. Thank you. I mean, people stop writing, their life moves on, or they find that maybe the model doesn't suit them, but not many. I mean, I looked at our attrition rate and it's really low.

Jennifer Prokop 00:31:46 / #: So you've talked about the authors, but what do Bold Strokes' readers tell you about what it feels like to have this space for them?

Radclyffe 00:31:55 / #: I know that they're very devoted. All of the authors and myself have really active social media platforms, so we hear from them all the time. But more importantly, we try to do as many in-person events as we can so that we can meet the readers. And it's really important to do that. And for example, every Women's Week, which is a week in Provincetown, starting with Columbus Day, we do a book event for five days.

00:32:23 / #: And we have many readers who come back year after year after year. It's all free. We do readings, we do panels, we do signings, we do chats, whatever we can do that they enjoy, it's for them. So we get a lot of positive feedback. And for me personally as an author, I've received countless emails from people of all ages who've said how important it is for them to see in fiction the life they wish they had or the life they do have that others don't know about.

00:33:03 / #: It's tremendously important for marginalized communities to be able to see themselves in a positive way. Probably one of the earliest and neatest experiences I ever had was I was in Saints and Sinners, which is an event in New Orleans, and it was one of the first erotica readings I did in public, and it was okay. It was a mixed group too. So, "Okay, I'm reading to the guys and I'm reading to women."

00:33:25 / #: And afterwards this young woman who was probably 15, came up to me with her mother to tell me how much she loved my books. And she said, "Oh, Above All, Honor, is one of my favorites." And I'm thinking, "Oh man, it starts with this graphic sex scene in chapter one." And it was awesome. I mean, it was so incredibly gratifying to know that this young person was there with her mom and had found this book and it meant something to her. And all of us, all the authors that I publish have experiences like that.

Sarah MacLean 00:34:03 / #: So let's talk about challenges though. So it's not easy to start a business. It's not easy to start a publishing business, that is for sure. And then you have on top of it, starting a romance business in a romance world that can be very gatekeep-y and conservative, I think we would say, in a lot of ways. So can you talk a little bit about how it is to be Radclyffe in the world of romance?

Radclyffe 00:34:34 / #: Well, first of all, I was nobody to start. I think that almost everyone has to adjust their expectations. And I didn't have any. I didn't set out to be a bestselling author. What I wanted to be was a good author. I wanted to get the books to people who wanted to read them. That was my goal. My goal was not to sell 50,000 books or 500,000 books or to make a lot of money, because I honestly did not think that I would.

00:35:05 / #: So I didn't have the expectations that I think sometimes other authors do, particularly today. I think that a lot of authors think they're going to sell a whole lot of books and make a whole lot of money, and generally that doesn't happen. I wanted my company and my authors, and I'm being a little possessive here, to have everything that everybody else had. So I thought, well, I should be part of the RWA. So that's one of the first things that I did.

00:35:33 / #: One of the very first things that I did to get exposure was join the RWA and go to the RWA, which was terrifying because I didn't know anybody. I didn't look like everybody else for the most part. I didn't write what everybody else was writing. Nobody was talking about what I was writing. And this was just another one of those experiences where you don't fit.

00:35:58 / #: But it was also exhilarating because I went to the classes and the seminars and this is the stuff that I needed to know. So it was amazing. And so then I went through all the hoops so that the RWA would recognize Bold Strokes as a legitimate publisher because we ticked all their boxes. And I made sure that we ticked all their boxes so that we could begin to build a profile as a legitimate, significant publisher of queer fiction.

00:36:31 / #: And every chance I got, every venue that I could go to, I fronted the company. I went there and I said, "This is who we are. This is what we do. We're really good at it." And I think that's my job. My job is to create a profile for this company so that the authors who sign here will have that benefit.

Jennifer Prokop 00:36:54 / #: So looking forward then, do you feel like we're on the precipice of anything? What are your hopes for what romance will look like in five or 10 years? I mean, have you seen positive change that you think will continue?

Radclyffe 00:37:09 / #: Oh, I think romance has changed tremendously. I mean, and as historians, if we're looking at the history of romance fiction, we can go back to Jane Austen, but really it's very compressed in terms of what we as contemporary readers are looking at 50 years maybe. I mean certainly for queer romances, we're looking at 50 years. That's just a little tiny piece of time. And yet so much has been crammed in there.

00:37:36 / #: And for us, for queer romance writers and queer authors in particular, our entire industry really parallels social change. I mean, the more visibility, the more exposure, the more authors, the more work, the more things we're writing about that are relevant to the community. So I think that what we're seeing in romance fiction has changed unbelievably from 50 years ago in terms of sexual content, gender diversity, the issues that are dealt with.

00:38:08 / #: The power of romance that most people do not appreciate is that you can write about anything. You can write about all the challenges of human life in a way that readers will find approachable, that they will relate to, they will think about, there's nothing else that does that. I'm a little prejudiced, but still it's an incredibly powerful genre.

00:38:35 / #: And that's been very true in terms of queer romances where initially we were dealing with the challenges of coming out. What it meant professionally for someone to be queer, to have a queer relationship that wasn't hidden. How do you deal with families? How do you deal with religious prejudices? And then that began to change, and you don't see as many coming out stories. We still do. We still write them because people are still coming out and people are still coming out in places where it's not safe.

00:39:07 / #: But romance has expanded and now we deal with gender diversity and challenges for YA, queer youth. And I think that's only going to continue. I mean, nothing is ever going to stop the romance genre because it deals with human relationships. It deals with what's most critical in our experience are the relationships in our lives. So it's never going to stop, but I think it will continue to transform as the issues that we face as a community, as a civilization change too.

Jennifer Prokop 00:39:44 / #: We say all the time, that romance really iterates on the time that it's in. When it was the AIDS crisis, was queer romance responsive to... I mean, again, did queer romance even exist in the same way? Especially as a doctor, did you see the way that there was fear about HIV? Did that play out in queer romance?

Radclyffe 00:40:12 / #: It played out in queer fiction, but I think that if you look at queer romance, it's just like romance in the mainstream. It's predominantly female oriented. Predominantly written by women with the expectation that the readers will be women. So that the men were writing about it, but that you were seeing it more in the context of the mysteries that they were writing or the general fiction that they were writing.

00:40:38 / #: And I'm not going to say that I didn't see a lot of it in lesbian fiction. Certainly I think in the non-fiction, in the essays and the other works. But in the fiction per se, I would say, it was secondary. And there is that divide, but there's that divide always in romance, what women are writing about and what men are writing about or what women are writing for men to read.

Sarah MacLean 00:41:05 / #: So you said earlier that, "I didn't have expectations," but I'm curious because at some point you did become a name that people know in the world of romance. And I wonder if there's a moment or at what point did you realize like, "Oh, I'm Radclyffe, I'm doing a thing and people know who I am?" And I asked this, and I've asked this of several of the people who we're interviewing for this series, when did you know you were amazing? Because we are, right? You are.

Radclyffe 00:41:42 / #: Okay. I don't know that I'm amazing. People tell me that I am one of the most determined and self-directed people that they know. And I think that that is true. I also have a sense of my own worth, which I think is probably why I said no to Barbara Grier back in the 1980s. But I didn't know what I would become as an author or a publisher. I only knew that I would do my best to do it right and that if anyone could do it, then I could do it.

00:42:14 / #: I mean, that's like we have a saying in surgery, "There's always room at the top," and I believe that. It's hard for someone who didn't train to be a writer, who doesn't either have no background in writing or literature or any of those things to believe. You kind of have that imposter syndrome a little bit at the beginning because I came out of a totally different world. So external recognition of my work for me personally was important and it bothered me. Now, do you know what the Lammy's are?

Sarah MacLean 00:42:55 / #: The Lambda Literary Awards?

Radclyffe 00:42:58 / #: The Lambda Literary Awards are like The RITAs. And it really bothered me the first few years that I was publishing that I didn't get nominated, really bothered me.

Sarah MacLean 00:43:06 / #: So can you explain how does the Lambda work? Because we of course in romance know how The RITA works and it has a lot of problems along the way. But how do you get nominated?

Radclyffe 00:43:18 / #: Well, you can submit your book just like you do to The RITAs, which are now the Vivians. And then basically, if you nominate it, they'll review it pretty much the same way.

Jennifer Prokop 00:43:31 / #: Was there always a romance category? Because that was my question, if this is a category they had to add?

Radclyffe 00:43:37 / #: There wasn't at the very beginning, there were only a few categories, but there has been for many years. And there's always been a little bit more of a literary event, a literary bent as opposed to genre fiction bent in those awards. But they do have genre categories. So if you send your books in, they will review it and then you become a finalist and then you win.

00:44:06 / #: And so I never got to be a finalist, and I couldn't figure out why that was. And it wasn't until really the company got bigger and the company had some recognition and more of my titles were out there and they knew who we were that I won a Lammy. I can't remember the first year, 2005, 2006. That meant a lot to me. Now, some people say those things, you know what they say about awards.

Jennifer Prokop 00:44:36 / #: They are great. That's what they say about them.

Sarah MacLean 00:44:38 / #: It's fun to put them on your shelf.

Radclyffe 00:44:40 / #: It meant something to me because it said to me, at least the people who are looking at similar works see this, they see me. I became visible. So that was important.

Sarah MacLean 00:44:51 / #: And I also have to say that I think that there is a massive difference between the Lambda Literary Award and The RITA or the Vivian in that the discoverability of queer, if I'm looking for great queer romance, I'm going to go to the Lambda Award and look at the winners there. I don't really feel like romance readers feel like, "I'm looking for great historical romance, I'm going to go check out the Vivians." Not because those books aren't maybe great, but-

Jennifer Prokop 00:45:21 / #: Right. They're going to go to the bookstore and look at the table. Right.

Radclyffe 00:45:25 / #: Well, I will tell you that one of the things that made the biggest impression on me was winning The PRISM because that's not my audience. That made a difference to me. They didn't know me at all, I'm a name on a book that they would not recognize. So I knew that when I won that, that said that my work was a good work. And that meant a lot to me as an author.

00:45:54 / #: In terms of, I guess, the thing that makes me feel like I've made an impression in the publishing and the world of queer fiction is all the authors that I've published and how well they've all done. They have surpassed me on every level hundreds of times. And when people say, "What's your legacy?" That's my legacy. They are. And so it doesn't matter if I'm forgotten, they won't be, because there's too many of them.

Jennifer Prokop 00:46:28 / #: When we do think about your books though, do you think there's a hallmark of what makes a Radclyffe romance?

Radclyffe 00:46:35 / #: I've thought about that because we talk about branding a lot, and I think so. I remember that I read at the York Lesbian Arts Festival in the UK or in the mid-2000s I guess, and I read, and the person who was moderating said, "Oh, it's all about the characters for you, isn't it?" And I looked at her and I said, "Of course," because I think that is, to me, what it's all about is the characters. And I think that that's what pulls the reader in and holds the reader.

00:47:11 / #: So I think that they remember. I know that readers remember my characters because they write to me and they talk about them by name, like they're real people. I think that when I think of my work, then I don't know that readers will actually recognize it, but I write archetypes. I specifically write hero archetypes, and I always have. And that gets back to the little kid who wanted to be the sheriff and who wanted to be the one.

00:47:39 / #: I wanted to put women in positions of authority and power. So I write about positions of responsibility more than power. I like to write about people who are responsible for others at cost to themselves. To me, that makes a hero. So many of my works, and they're not all military or law enforcement, but they're people who have assumed responsibility and they're generally wounded. So I write wounded heroes who are saved by love.

Sarah MacLean 00:48:10 / #: I love it.

Radclyffe 00:48:11 / #: Because that to me is a romance. That's what I wrote, read as a kid, and that's what I write. I mean, is there anything better than that?

Jennifer Prokop 00:48:18 / #: No.

Radclyffe 00:48:19 / #: No?

Jennifer Prokop 00:48:20 / #: I'm a simple woman.

Radclyffe 00:48:21 / #: Yeah, totally.

Jennifer Prokop 00:48:22 / #: No, is the answer.

Sarah MacLean 00:48:24 / #: So do you have a book that is the most popular with your readers? You have one that is a fan favorite?

Radclyffe 00:48:33 / #: I totally do. I totally do. I mean, they always-

Jennifer Prokop 00:48:36 / #: And we all do. We all make that face.

Radclyffe 00:48:39 / #: And is it like one of the first ones you ever wrote?

Jennifer Prokop 00:48:40 / #: It's the first one.

Radclyffe 00:48:43 / #: Because mine is, yeah. And it's like, "What happened after that? You just fell apart?"

Jennifer Prokop 00:48:48 / #: This makes me feel better.

Radclyffe 00:48:50 / #: Mine is Fated Love. I wrote it. It was one of the first ones that was really widely disseminated, so that may be part of it, but it was published in 2004 and absolutely almost everybody picks that book.

Jennifer Prokop 00:49:07 / #: I'm going to tell you two why you all are crazy. It's because when a person who has been reading for a long time decides to finally write a romance what they are doing, and every single person who has gone on to write many books after that first one has said, "I wrote in this book the things I wanted to see."

Radclyffe 00:49:30 / #: It's true.

Jennifer Prokop 00:49:32 / #: And I am going to tell you right now, that is why they resonate with readers, not because it's the best book you've ever written, because it is the book of your heart. And our hearts are all looking for a lot of similar things. So it's not that we don't think you've grown and changed and written great books. It's that first book is often so steeped in the kind of longing for the story that you desperately wanted to read. That is why we love them.

Sarah MacLean 00:50:02 / #: It is, it's a love letter.

Radclyffe 00:50:03 / #: So why can't we do it again?

Jennifer Prokop 00:50:04 / #: I know, "What have you done for me lately, Jen?"

Radclyffe 00:50:06 / #: Why aren't we doing that every time?

Jennifer Prokop 00:50:07 / #: Well, because, look, then you all are like, "Okay, but now there's a market and now there's the possibility of disappointing readers. And now I have to find new readers." It's, right-

Radclyffe 00:50:16 / #: And I have to write better sentences.

Jennifer Prokop 00:50:18 / #: Yes.

Sarah MacLean 00:50:20 / #: That's nonsensical.

Radclyffe 00:50:20 / #: And I have to pay attention to my point of view.

Sarah MacLean 00:50:22 / #: Exactly.

Jennifer Prokop 00:50:23 / #: Sorry.

Sarah MacLean 00:50:23 / #: Head hopping, what's that?

Jennifer Prokop 00:50:24 / #: Sorry for explaining the world to you two. I don't know what is even going on.

Radclyffe 00:50:30 / #: It's the first book I wrote with a kid, and I think that it was one of my earliest books, but I didn't want to write children because I was absolutely certain that I couldn't write children, but I decided that I would. Not a young child, but I think when I started, she was nine. I've written five in this universe since then because these characters are so popular.

00:50:51 / #: And it was a book about family, and I think that that's what people really loved. I mean, it was a romance, a really emotional romance, but it was also about family and community. So it hit a lot of buttons. That's the one that people like the most. I think one of your questions was, if I could pick one book to be remembered by, I think it would be one of the ones I wrote most recently, because I think it's better written. So I'd rather be remembered by that. And it also kind of comes full circle for me. It's my take on du Maurier's Rebecca, which is one of the most formative books of my life. I read a lot of gothic romance when I was young.

Sarah MacLean 00:51:38 / #: That's why you love a wounded hero, Radclyffe.

Radclyffe 00:51:40 / #: Totally.

Jennifer Prokop 00:51:41 / #: Serious, hello?

Sarah MacLean 00:51:41 / #: Right there. That's imprinted on you.

Jennifer Prokop 00:51:46 / #: Okay, is the cover a woman running away from a house? Because-

Radclyffe 00:51:47 / #: It should be.

Jennifer Prokop 00:51:47 / #: ... that is my paragram.

Radclyffe 00:51:47 / #: No, it isn't. As a matter of fact, it's this one right here. It's this one.

Jennifer Prokop 00:51:56 / #: Unrivaled, yeah.

Radclyffe 00:51:56 / #: It's a medical romance, but it has many of the themes of Rebecca. Actually, the other one is Jane Eyre. And one of the first books I wrote is called Love's Melody Lost. So one of the very first ones I wrote is based on Jane Eyre, and this one is du Maurier, 66 books just there in between. But yeah, I really like gothic romances.

Sarah MacLean 00:52:22 / #: Well, the book is Unrivaled. Because you feel like Bold Strokes is such a part of your legacy, I wonder if you could talk... I have the same question about Bold Strokes that I did about your own books. Is there one moment of Bold Strokes that you can point to as, "This is the time when we knew we would succeed at this, we knew that we could make this work. This is the book that we knew or the author?" Is there some sort of turning point for you that you can point to? The answer may be no, but-

Radclyffe 00:52:57 / #: I think the answer is no. Really. It's an organic sort of body of people and work that simply has grown and never stopped. But from the very beginning when there were just five of us and then there were 10 of us, and then 25 of us, we were connected. And I think that that's what made me realize and our books were really good and people really liked them. And I think the success of our early titles sort of confirmed for me that we were on the right road.

00:53:36 / #: And we've continued to really push and have a lot of the most popular authors that are publishing, writing queer stuff today. And we're expanding all the time, and we have many more diverse authors and diverse stories. So we're growing. We never have stagnated.

Jennifer Prokop 00:53:54 / #: So you talked about the discoverability problem and print on demand. And so when the Kindle came online, when eBooks really became a thing, and for those of you who are five years old or whatever, I'm sorry, I don't mean that I'm old. I remember for years they were like, "There's going to be digital books one day," and we were all like, "Whatever." And then boom there were. Did that help with discoverability? Did that change your business model when books became available directly to people?

Radclyffe 00:54:25 / #: Yeah, totally. Actually, I'm a big numbers person. I believe in the numbers. And so I've looked at a lot of these things and presented some of these things. And when the Kindle came out, and then the iPad shortly after, it became very apparent to me that we needed this platform. And I asked our eBook tech, who at the time was just making PDFs that we were selling from a web store. So I got a contract with both Amazon and iTunes right away, and I said, "Tony," I said, "We need to convert our catalog." Well, we had 800 titles then, and she did it in six weeks.

Sarah MacLean 00:55:06 / #: What?

Jennifer Prokop 00:55:07 / #: Oh, wow.

Sarah MacLean 00:55:08 / #: That's unbelievable.

Jennifer Prokop 00:55:09 / #: And there you go, right? There you go.

Radclyffe 00:55:13 / #: And see, when you're an independent publisher, you can move.

Sarah MacLean 00:55:15 / #: So nimble. Yeah.

Radclyffe 00:55:15 / #: The next year, we saw a 30% increase in our backlist sales, in our backlist title sales.

Sarah MacLean 00:55:21 / #: Now what year do you feel like this was?

Radclyffe 00:55:25 / #: 2010, 2011.

Sarah MacLean 00:55:26 / #: Yeah, it was right. I mean, that felt like that it was electric that time.

Jennifer Prokop 00:55:30 / #: It was electric.

Sarah MacLean 00:55:30 / #: And it was the Wild West in a lot of ways in that if you had a Kindle or if you had a Sony eReader, which is what I had to start, you were just reading whatever there was. I mean, I think people who now come to romance and come to independent publishing have no frame of reference for how little there was at the beginning, which is why so many of these authors and publishers who were on the early crest of this wave-

Jennifer Prokop 00:56:02 / #: Early adopters.

Sarah MacLean 00:56:03 / #: ... were making so much money. I mean, because we would read everything.

Radclyffe 00:56:09 / #: The thing that was so important for us is that we could reach the community that didn't have access to us before. It's been both a blessing and a curse for queer publishing because I think that digital publishing has destroyed the network of queer bookstores. In the '70s and '80s and '90s, there were probably 1,200 feminist and queer bookstores in the United States, and now there's probably less than 10. I mean, they just cannot survive because there's not enough concentration of readers.

00:56:48 / #: Womencrafts in Provincetown is one of the oldest still existing, and I mean, they're still going strong, but Giovanni's is gone. I mean, in all the major cities, they're gone. Because there's not enough in that one place to buy print. So we're reaching more readers, but it's flipped the paradigm. So eBooks are selling much more than print, which is true for genre fiction and romance in particular, which everybody knows. And that's a loss. That's a tremendous loss for us not to have those bookstores anymore.

Sarah MacLean 00:57:23 / #: Where is the community finding books?

Radclyffe 00:57:26 / #: Well, they find them online like most readers, but very fortunately for us, they find them with us because we have our own web store. We send out all our new release newsletters, we discount our titles so that they can find them. We do daily bargains. We do every possible thing we can to get our books to our readers. But interestingly enough, the vast majority of readers are still getting them outside of our direct connections. They're still getting them. They're looking on the internet. They're hopefully going to bookstores and finding them there, because we still do release all of our titles in print and libraries. We have a pretty good library distribution, both eBook and paperback. So they find them the way everybody else finds them.

Sarah MacLean 00:58:19 / #: Yeah, but it is sad to lose the community of booksellers.

Radclyffe 00:58:23 / #: It's very tough.

Sarah MacLean 00:58:25 / #: And also, we didn't talk about this, but you have one of the largest collections of lesbian romance in the world, in your house, behind you.

Jennifer Prokop 00:58:35 / #: [inaudible 00:58:35 / #] behind you.

Radclyffe 00:58:35 / #: There's 2,000 books right there behind me.

Sarah MacLean 00:58:38 / #: I feel like we should take a picture of this. I'm going to take a picture of you. Let's take this, yeah.

Radclyffe 00:58:42 / #: This is a little tiny piece of the set, eight bookcases, that I started collecting every single one that I could find throughout the country after that first book in 1972. And then I went back and found some of the older ones. And then very honestly, probably eight or nine years ago, one, I ran out of space. Number two, very happily, there were so many coming out that I couldn't read them all at once.

Jennifer Prokop 00:59:08 / #: You couldn't do it anymore, yeah.

Radclyffe 00:59:08 / #: And so a lot of them now, I just read on Kindle or I read on the iPad, but I have them, they're 40 years old now, some of them. But this is the lifeblood behind me. This is what, for our community-

Sarah MacLean 00:59:28 / #: This is what you've bathed in the blood of?

Radclyffe 00:59:29 / #: ... this is life giving. That's I am bathed in the blood.

Sarah MacLean 00:59:31 / #: I love that.

Jennifer Prokop 00:59:35 / #: Well done. What a way to end.

Sarah MacLean 00:59:38 / #: Radclyffe, this was amazing. Thank you so much for joining us.

Jennifer Prokop 00:59:38 / #: It was amazing.

Sarah MacLean 00:59:41 / #: Thanks for telling us your stories.

Radclyffe 00:59:43 / #: I hope it was enjoyable for everybody who's listening too.

Jennifer Prokop 00:59:48 / #: If people aren't interested in this, then they just aren't us because I can't get enough of it.

Radclyffe 00:59:53 / #: I know, I could talk about it forever.

Jennifer Prokop 00:59:53 / #: Forever. Forever.

Sarah MacLean 00:59:56 / #: Yeah, yeah. I have a feeling that every one of these interviews is just going to be-

Jennifer Prokop 01:00:03 / #: They're amazing.

Sarah MacLean 01:00:04 / #: ... better than the next. It's crazy how great they all are.

Jennifer Prokop 01:00:07 / #: It really is amazing. I think one of the things that really struck me, there are so many about this conversation is once again, the real importance of representation.

Sarah MacLean 01:00:18 / #: Yeah, and also the idea of how she thinks about her own books and the archetypes that she writes, reflecting herself and other people. And talk about somebody who understands why she's sitting down every day. And I think that is a struggle for some of us, but it's not for her. And interestingly, I mean not to spoil who else we have coming and what else we have planned, but I think one of the things that I'm already seeing just so early in the conversations that we're having is these people all know why they sit down every day, and that is a huge piece of the puzzle, I think.

01:00:56 / #: I do just want to shout out, also, we talked about this during the Sandra Brown episode or after the Sandra Brown episode, but again, this sense of community. This idea that the work for so many of these trailblazers is to lift up other voices and to help other people come to the table. And that's really cool.

Jennifer Prokop 01:01:15 / #: This question of the losing of queer bookstores, we talk a lot about, okay, the Kindle revolution has meant that your reading can be private, but that in this particular case, it has also taken away a space that has been so powerful in the queer community.

01:01:37 / #: And when she talked about not being able to put books on the shelves in P-Town, right? And so that whole question of books on the shelves is one, I think, that you and I offline talk about all the time, "Where are people finding romance on the shelves?" And that is something that is even more urgent. And I think really is so interesting to hear that perspective from Radclyffe.

Sarah MacLean 01:02:04 / #: Well, and this idea of losing queer bookstores being scary in a lot of ways. Like this idea that these bookstores, and we all know this intuitively as readers, that bookstores, libraries, these are usually safe spaces for us to do our exploration around identity. But for queer kids, for LGBTQIA+ kids, these are spaces that when they're lost, they are a loss, a more powerful loss.

Jennifer Prokop 01:02:36 / #: This is also one of our first Trailblazer episodes where someone had a really different full-time job and was writing on the side. So you don't know who else we've interviewed or those people didn't talk about their other job. But being a doctor and then becoming a romance writer is sort of just for-

Sarah MacLean 01:02:58 / #: And publisher.

Jennifer Prokop 01:02:59 / #: And publisher, right? And so that journey, I think also just goes to show that romance is so powerful for so many people that it's a way of really expressing something that's deep in our hearts. And I was just really interested in hearing that, I really liked that.

Sarah MacLean 01:03:21 / #: Can I also say Radclyffe was the first writer we've had who we've talked across all four seasons where we talked about writing, and she spoke about it as something that she did to relax that she never expected anybody to look at?

Jennifer Prokop 01:03:40 / #: Right, right.

Sarah MacLean 01:03:41 / #: And I'm really charmed by that. And I know that she's not the only one out there, but often we fall into this mythology of like, well, people write in order for other people to read. But Radclyffe was really writing for herself first. And I think that also gets back to this question of representation and identity and experience. But I think that's really fabulous. And I think if you're out there and you're just writing for yourself, that's fine too.

Jennifer Prokop 01:04:08 / #: Yeah, and I think one of the things, and we have had Christina and Lauren on to talk about FanFic. We have talked with Adriana and Alexis who are also big FanFic people. And Adriana especially has talked really explicitly about how fan fiction, these are spaces where marginalized characters can get the full treatment of their humanity.

01:04:33 / #: And so it was also really interesting to think about the ways in which those are avenues where we are going to have so many amazing writers coming up through as, "I wrote this for me, because I wanted to see these characters have a happily ever after, or I wanted to see them experience love the way I feel love." So just really, I think, that was not a surprise to me at all to hear that she'd had a little dabbling in FanFic also in her story.

Sarah MacLean 01:04:59 / #: Yeah, those cowboy books. I love it, I want them. Anyway, everyone, this is Fated Mates. You have been listening to a Trailblazer episode. We're doing those in addition to our regular read-alongs and interstitial episodes over the course of season four and maybe beyond.

01:05:16 / #: We're trying very hard to add to the romance history here, along with other podcasts that are doing the same thing. You should head over, speaking of other podcasts that are doing the same thing, to Julie Moody-Freeman's Black Romance podcast where she has been doing this for several seasons with Black romance writers.

01:05:34 / #: And you can otherwise hang out with us, FatedMates.net. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at FatedMates and at FatedMatesPod respectively. You can find gear and stickers and links to other cool stuff at the website. And otherwise, head over to your pod catching app, your favorite one, and like and follow us there. And you will never miss an episode of us in your ear holes.

Jennifer Prokop 01:06:02 / #: Have a great week, everybody.

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S03.41: Spy Romance with Nana Malone

You are in the right place! Your eyes do not deceive you! We’re actually talking about spy romances this week and no Sarahs were harmed during the discussion, but that’s probably because it was a discussion with one of her favorite people, the fantastic Nana Malone!

We talk about Nana’s immense career, about how she took matters into her own hands and started making the covers she wished to see in the world, about her Brown Nipple reading challenge, about her latest book, a Kobo original, The Spy in 3B, and about porny ferris wheels. Real ordinary stuff. We also get to the bottom of why Sarah doesn’t like spy romances generally, but why she can’t get enough of Mr. & Mrs. Smith retellings.

Our next read along in some number of weeks (three? four?) is Kylie Scott’s Lead, one of our longtime favorites. Get it at Amazon, Apple Books, B&N, Kobo, or Bookshop.org!

Thank you, as always, for listening! Please follow us on your favorite podcasting app, and if you are up for leaving a rating or review there, we would be very grateful!

The Spy Books

Notes

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S03.08: Serving Pleasure by Alisha Rai: He didn't buy curtains, so frankly it's on him.

This week, we’re talking about a book and author who has given both of us a whole lot of joy — Alisha Rai! We’re reading Serving Pleasure, which is the story of the most relatable of heroines and the outrageously hot painter who moves in next door! Voyeurism, sex positivity and family in romance are all on the table here. We love it.

We’re putting read alongs on hold for a bit to spend the next five weeks hanging out with some of our favorite people and talking about books and tropes that give us joy, so we hope you’ll join us and keep a pen handy so you can add to your TBR list as needed!

Also! We had our first Fated States phonebanking session with Indivisible.org on Saturday — it was great and we loved seeing so many of your amazing faces! Please join us, fellow Fated Maters, and special guests for Fated States Phonebanking Part 2 this Saturday, October 3rd at 3pm Eastern to call North Carolina! It’s easy, not scary, and there will be prizes!

Thank you, as always, for listening! If you are up for leaving a rating or review for the podcast on your podcasting app, we would be very grateful!

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S02.25: Asking For Trouble: Tessa Bailey is the Queen of Dirty Talk

This week we're mixing it up, talking about an author more than a specific book -- the Queen of Dirty Talk herself, Tessa Bailey. But we're not just talking about the sexybits -- we're also talking about working class heroes, women and worry and how awesome it is to watch authors evolve.

We love having you with us! — subscribe on your favorite podcasting platform and like/review the podcast if you’re so inclined!

In two weeks, we’re reading a book that blooded both Sarah and Jen — and approximately 50% of Romancelandia, we think -- Stephanie Laurens's Devil's Bride, starring Devil Cynster, who also happens to be the only romance hero Sarah's husband can name (yes, even now). Find it at: Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo, or your local indie.

Show Notes

TRANSCRIPT

Sarah MacLean 0:00
Yeah, I'm big mad. I told Eric we were we were having a late addition to the to the podcast schedule this week.

Jennifer Prokop 0:14
I told Darryl the same thing. I was like, look, so I'm recording tonight and he's like, "only one episode?" I was like, "Yes, it will be roughly 800 hours long."

Sarah MacLean 0:22
I know. You'll never see me again.

Jennifer Prokop 0:24
My fury will not be contained.

Sarah MacLean 0:30
Body autonomy, Jennifer.

Jennifer Prokop 0:33
It's all a girl wants

Sarah MacLean 0:37
I'm just a girl standing in front of the world, asking for you to get your hands out of my uterus.

Jennifer Prokop 0:44
You know, I used to say "my uterus" a lot like people be like, "Why do--" "I'm like my uterus!" And I think back then there are some men in my life who thought it was like charming or funny. I'm like, "Did you think I was kidding? Motherfucker. Get your hands out of my fucking uterus."

Sarah MacLean 1:03
Yeah. Well, Victoria Dahl had this great tweet today about hysteria. And how hysteria is the truth that they always spoke of, but never really wanted to see. And I was like that feels right to me today. So you guys the world is aflame again. It's 2019. So like, again still, I was on the subway today and someone said to me, "I just sometimes wonder like, Am I drinking tea on the Titanic? And is it before or after we hit the iceberg?" Like, this is all fair.

Jennifer Prokop 1:40
Yeah, it's how it feels, right? There's a thing that we talked about at school where it's like, like "the bomb face," right? Something goes so wrong that you just have that thousand-yard stare. And I feel at some point, it's me and every woman I know. And I just want to say I think a lot about the women who live in states where, this, they're on the front lines.

Sarah MacLean 2:07
Yeah. So wait. I think we should, You probably know by now what we're talking about and who we are. If not, this is going to be a crash landing into Fated Mates with Sarah and Jen. I'm Sarah MacLean. I write romance novels. I read romance novels. I like to talk about romance novels.

Jennifer Prokop 2:28
Yeah, and I'm Jennifer Prokop. And I talk about romance on Twitter, and I'm a teacher and I basically believe that nobody's business what's going on in anybody's uterus.

Sarah MacLean 2:42
Yeah, I got it. I agree. Can I just cosign that? And are we done now? Four minutes in? And that's where we stand.

Jennifer Prokop 2:49
here's here's where I think we came up with this idea is what we did was kind of

Sarah MacLean 2:54
it's a what date is it? It's May, it's May something 15?

Jennifer Prokop 2:59
No. 16

Sarah MacLean 3:00
I think 16th but yesterday was May 15, and some real shitty laws were passed in, or a law was was passed in Alabama. Regarding abortion,

Jennifer Prokop 3:12
well, and by the time you hear this, which which should be next Wednesday, the 22nd. It might be that these laws have passed in Missouri and in Michigan. I mean, like these are laws that are like making their way through states.

Sarah MacLean 3:28
Yeah, the Republicans are coming for Roe. And Jen and I are big mad.

Jennifer Prokop 3:36
Yeah, well, and I think the way that we're always both interested in talking about things is like, how does romance-- which is like a genre we both profoundly love-- like help us understand where women are, where women have been, and what our future will be. Kind of in a relationship with our bodies. And I think that, you know, one thing -- We really want to be sensitive for sure. I think there's a lot of like, "if, you know, men could be pregnant, there'd be, you know, like abortion kiosks at every Walgreens" or whatever. And we're not looking to be that has like, I think it that's language is really trans-exclusionary, right. But at the same time, we were really interested in talking about this without talking about gender?

Sarah MacLean 4:34
Yeah. Well, I want to acknowledge the trans men are extra terrified right now and have every right to be. yeah. And I think, you know, I said earlier today to somebody, this is a conversation that needs to be had about every person with a uterus and so I think both of us just want to set that set that out at the start, but this is gonna it's a tough conversation to have without using gendered Yeah. language so forgive us, for..

Jennifer Prokop 5:01
We want to be sensitive to it and we want our listeners to be sensitive to it, too. And so it's a like mea culpa in advance, we're going to try to do our best but we like really welcome feedback, I guess, from for us like, it's important to us to be inclusive, but it's also like a conversation that so tied into the way gender and women's bodies and like actual, like physical parts are seen in the world and perceived in the world that it's hard to imagine that we won't. Like we were just going to do our best, everybody. But we're also, I think it's urgent to talk about it, especially in romance because, as we've talked about many, many weeks, this is the place where, like the interior life of a woman is really like the most fully developed. And for, for I think every woman these concerns about like reproductive organs and how they sometimes feel like they betray us, is one that I think is we're really interested in talking about.

Sarah MacLean 6:12
Yeah, so this episode is going to be different than all of our other episodes, it's still going to have a lot of books in it, where we encourage you to get a pen. Show notes will be extensive, but we're going to talk about bodies and, and the female body, and the parts of it and the things that happen inside us and the reasons why romance has always seemed to be a place where that's a safe conversation and a safe dialogue. For us to have but a big, the big I think reason why we're doing this this week is because yesterday, I asked on Twitter for people to hive mind a list of romances where... in which the heroine has a abortion, has an abortion without shame. And I think we got, what, like 15 books? And I think that is the thing that we should talk about. So we're going to talk about-- so content warning, we're going to obviously talk about abortion. We're going to talk about miscarriage. We're going to talk about stillbirth. We're going to talk about contraception. What else we're going to talk about?

Jennifer Prokop 7:31
My rage.

Sarah MacLean 7:32
A lot of rage, you guys asked for it! See, be careful what you wish for our listeners. Um, so where do you want to begin? You want to begin with [Fanny!] Fanny Hill. "Fanny Hill: Memoirs of a Woman of Pleasure," which is an erotic novel, written in 1748. Don't, don't be expecting this to be like Sierra Simone style.

Jennifer Prokop 8:02
I actually am really curious to read it in the light of that statement, a little levity.

Sarah MacLean 8:08
Wikipedia calls it "an erotic novel." That's what I have opened in front of me, because I wanted all the dates in front of me. It's written by a man named John Cleland. And it was published a serialized, So Jen would have loved it {on brand.} In 1748, I did not know this. So 1748 I'm going to repeat that because, holy crap. I did not know this, but John Cleland wrote it while he was in debtor's prison. And, it is considered I'm now just reading from Wikipedia, but "it is considered the first original English prose pornography and the first pornography to use the forum of the novel." It is one of the most banned books in history but is considered by many, including Maya Rodale, to be a primordial romance novel, to use a Kresley Cole term.

Jennifer Prokop 9:13
I actually love that. I love calling it a primordial romance novel.

Sarah MacLean 9:16
I mean, I and I think it probably is. So Fannie Mae-- Fannie Mae, that's a that is where you get your college loans from, which is a different rage. If any Fannie Mae or Sallie Mae? I don't know. Anyway, doesn't matter. Maybe we'll skip all that.

Jennifer Prokop 9:34
So we're never good with titles! How is that not on brand for us?

Sarah MacLean 9:39
There are there are a lot of editions. If you can find an edition of Fanny HIll with illustrations, they're super graphic. And also you can go on Wikipedia and there are several very graphic illustrations. So you know, enjoy yourselves. Enjoy yourselves. So okay, um, she writes letter there. It's written, it's epistolary, she is telling her own story to, uh, to to the recipient of two letters. And it's basically Fanny's life account, and I'm not going to get too deep into it, but essentially, her parents die, and she goes to London and she gets lured into a brothel. And it's the story of, sort of, her life in the brothel. And the reason why we're bringing up Fannie Mae--Fannie Mae, goddamnit! The reason why we're bringing up Fanny Hill is because, like, ultimately, she gets married to Charles the hero. And so that's why we call it a primordial romance novel. It does end with Fanny in happiness. There's, warning, a whole lot of like, problematic representation or prostitutes in this book, it was written in the 1740s, and it can be, like, very preachy about that. So, obviously, you know, consider the date of publication. Fun fact.

Jennifer Prokop 11:09
I'm gonna retcon this, this that like Sarah from Dreaming of You, that that's what she wrote. Matilda, right? I'm sure that's probably what it is.

Sarah MacLean 11:19
Yeah, yeah. Um, there is a lot of, just to talk about like etymology for a second, there is some discussion that the reason why like, you can call it, like some people call it vagina a Fanny is because of Fanny Hill. Um, so you know, fun facts, just fun little, you know, historical facts. But Fanny, importantly, spends a lot of time in a brothel, working in a brothel, where she loses her virginity. There's a bisexual Madam, I want to say in this book, and you know, there's a lot of sex in all different forms and all different places. And there are a lot of prostitutes who have to terminate pregnancies, and they do it on the page and Fanny sort of articulates how it's done. It's not super graphic if I, you know, if I recall correctly, but it is like abortion is on the page in this book, because of course it is! Contraception is on pages book, because of course it is! And it's 1750, so, let's set aside this idea that any of this is new. Because, as I've said, multiple times ad nauseum over the last few days, like women have been dealing with..

Jennifer Prokop 12:32
Unwanted pregnancies.

Sarah MacLean 12:33
Yeah. Since pregnancy began.

Jennifer Prokop 12:37
Sure. And you know what, it's really interesting because I feel like-- and you and I were chatting about this before we started recording-- that I'm pretty sure like my first introduction to abortion was like women and historical romances. Like somebody knew somebody who knew the right cup full of tea to drink. Yep. Right. And, and even though I can't name specific ones. Like, I just feel like I imprinted on that idea that there was, like there was a woman somewhere in the village who knew how to take care of this business. Yeah. And and that's who you went to see.

Sarah MacLean 13:12
I mean, and she was a midwife, right? Because so one of the things that we talked about all the time, you and I, and I mean, I'm sure we talked about it here, but like, the romance novel, from its very origins, has been a place where, at the beginning, a subset of women, right, like written for women, white women, white cishet women, right? Right, were able to have a dialogue in an enclosed space away from the prying eyes of patriarchy, right. So and we've talked about this over time, as romance has become more inclusive of marginalized people, is has become the literature of happiness and joy, and hope and how Happily ever after. And now in 2019, that's a political act, And it was frankly a political-- It's always been a political act, right, for marginalized people to live happily. Women have been marginalized as a block. ...forever. And so I think what's really interesting here is that when we talk about pregnancy, on the page, and we talk about abortion, on the page, you and I both have the same experience, which is when we were young, and we were reading those historical romances, it was a midwife in the village who was in charge of birthing children and taking care of it, if you didn't want one. And I don't just mean abortion. I mean, like contraception, too. Like it was midwives who had tinctures and tonics and teas. And [Yep] I'm the same way, Jen. Like, I'm pretty sure that I didn't... that my first understanding of abortion came from romance novels, like there was a trick to not getting pregnant.

Jennifer Prokop 15:06
Yeah. And this was something, in pop culture for me, that moment was the movie "Fast Times at Ridgemont High." Now it came out in 1982. And I did not see it, then I would have been too young. But at some point, like later on, right, I mean, I was I was 10 then, right? It's around nine or 10, or whatever. At some point later on, I saw it and there's this like, really matter of fact, like scene where the brother essentially takes, you know, takes this his sister into the clinic and she gets an abortion, and that's that. But I would say, like those to me, but like, really that that didn't even stick out to me the way the romance novel and the sense that like women took care of each other in these moments, was like really powerful for me. Like I often remember it, although you have an example we're going to talk about I

Sarah MacLean 15:57
have a really interesting example. Yeah

Jennifer Prokop 16:00
But for me, it was like women, you know, it's like a woman went to another woman or like whispered among the maids, like somebody knew who this person was. And in that sense, like one of the most powerful like, romances I've read with a miscarriage is called "The Mayor's Mission" by Piper Huguely, where she actually experiences, she has a miscarriage. And Virgil, who's the hero, is kind of like wanting to help Mandy, his wife, and he's like, sort of like, told by, essentially, the the midwife in their village like this is Women's Business. And I think that the reason it stuck out to me is because that very much felt like, I felt that, right? When that midwife says that to Virgil, "this is Women's Business," that even though I feel differently about it today in terms of like how men and reproduction things happen, that ultimately, that was how I imprinted on this idea.

Sarah MacLean 17:03
I mean, I think that it's certainly I feel differently. It's complicated. That should be a show title of this. It's complicated. So I just turned 40. And like, my body's doing all sorts of weird shit. I'm like, I think about all the ways that like, something strange happens, and I think to myself, like, "oh, Is that normal? Like, is that is this just a thing that happens now?" And I don't like say anything to my husband, I call my friends or I asked my sister, or like, I, I sort of reference it in passing to someone who is, you know, has the same parts as me and I say, like, hey, "Has this ever happened to you?" And then suddenly, you have these moments where you're like, "Oh, wait, that has happened to me" and we never... women, I think all the time about Emily Nagoski's "Come As You Are." So, Emily writes, Emily's amazing. Right now, she's sort of everywhere in romance, because she, she wrote these wonderful contemporary romances under the name Emily Foster. The first one is called "How Not to Fall" and the second is called "How Not to Let Go." It's a duology, you have to read both, but they're both published. But she's also a sex educator, and has a PhD in human sexuality. [Oh, wow.] First of all, you want to know who writes a hot hot hot sex scene? Somebody with a PhD in human sexuality like, yeah. Emily's first book, non fiction book, written as Emily Nagoski, is called "Come As You Are," and it's basically like a informational guide to women and sex. And I bought it and it taught me so much about like, what's normal 'cause No one sits women down and says like, no,"here's what sex is like. Here's what's normal. Here's what's not normal. Like, frankly, everything is kind of normal." So and I think and I read this book and it was like, a revelation for me and I was 36 or 37 like, way too, and I've been reading romance novels since I was 11. My God, like, it's something revalatory about, like, lady bits? The fact that I got to it at 36 or 37? I went to Smith, we spent a lot of time talking about lady bits there! So anyway, I think a lot about that and I think a lot about the fact that like, romance has always for me been a place where like women's issues can be discussed without,

Jennifer Prokop 19:41
without fear or shame,

Sarah MacLean 19:42
Without fear, without shame and also with no shrouding, like there's no like, you know, you can go to the woman, the midwife, and she will give you a tincture and it will take care of the business.

Jennifer Prokop 19:55
I also have been reading romance since I was like, you know, a teen, a young teenager. And, but I went to Catholic schools and then I went to a Catholic... I went to Villanov.

Sarah MacLean 20:07
That is the opposite of Smith, I would guess.

Jennifer Prokop 20:10
Yes! In fact, I still have very vivid memories, and I don't remember her name. So you know, I can't name shame, but I remember meeting girls on my floor my freshman year of college, who, like literally didn't really even understand why they got a period,

Sarah MacLean 20:28
Jesus Christ.

Jennifer Prokop 20:29
And I just remember being like, what in fuck are you doing? What are we? And this was, you know, a long time ago, because I'm 45. And I think, I think a lot about like, abstinence only education.. and one of the things I think a lot about is, even though it is not the job of romance to teach sex ed, we are fooling ourselves if we don't understand that many, many readers are are learning about sex. Literally learning.

Sarah MacLean 21:03
Yes.

Jennifer Prokop 21:03
Through this genre.

Sarah MacLean 21:05
Yes.

Jennifer Prokop 21:05
And that is that's a responsibility. I think that we like you can

Sarah MacLean 21:10
Absolutely. You're 100%. Right. And I mean, that's not we didn't have a different, we don't, that's not different between us. I learned about sex from romance novels, without question. And I've told this story before, that I read Beatrice Small's "All the Sweet Tomorrows" when I was 14 and I was like, "Oh shit, I'm gonna get in trouble if my parents see that I'm reading this." You know, I had lactation porn. It was a ride!

Sarah MacLean 21:41
Yeah, you're 100% right. And I do think like, I think romance in those early days didn't shy away from---interestingly, yes, it had purple prose, and yes, there was a lot of euphemism, and what the hell is a throbbing member, and where did what go, and who's what --- But at the same time, you know Jane Feather's "Vixen," which actually was posted 1996, so it's much later than I would have expected. So Jane Feather's "Vixen," this is real old school ones you guys, the hero is just awful. He's awful. It's Guardian / ward. Um, and he's a real, the hero's real bad. But like if you're into like, really rough alphas who are impenetrable and ultimately end up loving their ward. It's you know, solid choice if that's your old school kink. But what's really interesting is so they have sex. He's drunk, he's like real drunk, and he comes home to his manor, and she's there. And he didn't he doesn't know who she is. She's just like, beautiful young woman in his house. And so, and he's super drunk and they have sex. And in the morning after, he's like, "Oh shit, like, what have I done?" And he makes her a tonic and brings it to her and says, and we'll put this image in show notes will put the quote in show notes.

Jennifer Prokop 23:12
It's an amazing thing. Honestly.

Sarah MacLean 23:14
It's astounding because, he basically says to her "Here. Drink this," He is not a good dude. And he's like, "drink this." And she's like, "why?" And he's like, "because it will take care of any unforeseen problems from last night." And she's like, "what problems?" And he's like, "You're an idiot." I think he calls her "a little fool." And he's like, "you could be pregnant." And she's like, "Oh my god, I didn't even think about that." And she takes the drink, and she knocks it back without hesitation, she's like, I don't want to be pregnant. Like, I'm taking this ... I'm taking herbal PlanB, like Jane Feather Regency PlanB. And It's awesome.

Jennifer Prokop 23:19
It's kind of a great scene.

Sarah MacLean 23:30
There are a lot of problems with this book. But right now, today, I read that scene and I sent a screenshot to Jen. And I was like, This is fucking great! And then she says, "Will it work?" And he says, "it'll work." And that's it. And it does work. She doesn't get pregnant. It works.

Jennifer Prokop 24:20
And, like, what I found fascinating about that scene is it does go against type in the sense that he's the one who knows about it, right?

Sarah MacLean 24:28
He's taught, interestingly enough, he is taught how to make this herbal concoction by his first lover.

Jennifer Prokop 24:37
Yeah, well, and what's really interesting, though, is what is though to type is, the sort of virginal young heroine, I mean, who goes to a man's bed for the first time having no fucking idea what's going to happen. And that's another thing I really vividly remember from like early romance, right? Especially historicals: was you know "it's your wedding night" and you know they get some stumbling half assed explanation, if that!, about what's gonna happen.

Sarah MacLean 25:10
you're gonna bleed and then you know Marlo and no good deed goes unpunished with like a gallon of pig's blood because how much show

Jennifer Prokop 25:18
idea no idea and I mean and I think I do remember being really fascinated by like by this, the stories about like, like women are sent like lambs to the slaughter. right? They have no idea what's going to happen and I just I find that fascinating still, right? Like how much I imprinted on this idea that women were there to teach each other because it was a woman-- It was her mother or her sister-- who told her and if she didn't have that, then she had to rely on the goodwill of this lover, her partner.

Sarah MacLean 25:57
I texted with Lisa Kleypas earlier today because I could only think, one of the only romance novels I could think of where where I can name contraception on the page is one of the Hathaway books, Amelia and Cam, at this point, have already been married and Amelia doesn't want to get pregnant. And so she's taking this like herbal tea, which is basically like, what she's drinking every day. Yeah, and it actually doesn't work in the book and she gets pregnant. And interestingly, I I think that's a real thing, too. Look, I mean, like, the actual pill now, with science, doesn't work 100% of the time, so like, these teas definitely didn't work all the time. I texted Lisa and I I sort of said like, "Do you, Am I missing something else? Have you written this and other books?" Because, you know, Lisa's always-- we've talked about this before about Lisa's like talismans--And Lisa is really like fascinated with the history of stuff and she'll get really interested in like the history of like land management and then suddenly that's like a huge piece of a book. So I asked her, and she actually reminded me, and I had forgotten this, that in "Devil in Winter," Evie asks about pregnancy and Sebastian says, "There are all these ways," like he sort of articulates a number of different ways that you can use contraception and he brings up the use of, Hang on-- I'm going to pull up I'm going to pull it up-- He brings up the use of, quote, "little charms," which were Lisa just said to me today, usually gold or silver or sometimes lead, and which yikes. But they were intra cervical, and sometimes even intrauterine devices that

Jennifer Prokop 27:46
like a pre IUD?

Sarah MacLean 27:48
yeah. [Dang] So the idea that these things are on that like Lisa Kleypas setting this on the page, Jane Feather setting this on the page, is a real dialogue in the 90s about how women, how this is women's work. Contraception is women's work! I mean, [yeah], yes, there is no male birth control pill and there's a reason for it. Right like, [sure]. First of all, you know, it unfortunately it is our work to make sure we don't get pregnant. People with uteruses are responsible with make sure it making sure that we don't get pregnant, which is problematic and in an immense way, but reality.

Jennifer Prokop 28:32
Yeah, well and it but it's also because thousands of years of patriarchy has made it so, right? Well, and I would think to like back in old historicals, like about French letters, right? Like I..

Sarah MacLean 28:46
the French letter!

Jennifer Prokop 28:47
How did I I mean, I totally had to like figure that out from context. There was no Wikipedia, there was no Urban Dictionary.

Sarah MacLean 28:54
And they all have like bows on them and like ribbons and you're like, "What the fuck is this?" And then what was amazing is like, I, I can't believe this is the first time we're ever going to talk about "Harlots" on this podcast because I am in love with "Harlots." The show on Hulu, which is set in a bordello in the 1700s. It's like bordello wars, but the set it's in the 1700s. It's amazing. It's super feminist it has a full female writing staff, a full female, female showrunner. Female directors, like the cast is something like 98% women, the speaking cast, like it's very intersectional, they are queer characters, there are characters of color. It's amazing. If you haven't watched "Harlots" you should. But it said a a bordello, and it's the first time I ever saw anybody, any historical anything, show a French letter the way French letters are, which is... hard. They're dried skin, and they have to be soaked in water to use them. I mean, like you guys, show notes are really going to be rich this week because we'll link, Jen and I will work on them together and we'll link to everything. But basically a French letter is it's just, it's like imagine a dried like sausage casing-- that's literally what it is, tied up sheep intestine. It's tied on one end with like, a string as tight as possible. But it can't be tied until it's softened. So you couldn't just grab a condom and go! You had to soak it for, I don't know how long, 45 minutes an hour I don't know. I don't know how long it takes, let's say an hour,

Jennifer Prokop 30:34
2020, 2021, whatever it takes.

Sarah MacLean 30:36
it's like that scene in The Princess Bride when they say, "don't go swimming for at least an hour!" So imagine Carol Kane as your friendly bordello owner but the you know, like, and that shit doesn't work either like tying up a sheep's intestine with a bit of string does not protect you from pregnancy. Which brings us back to you gotta figure out how to manage pregnancy.

Jennifer Prokop 31:06
You and I have been reading long enough that we watched the condom evolution happen in romance.

Sarah MacLean 31:12
So much.

Jennifer Prokop 31:13
You know, it's funny because part of me is like, I don't know, I don't know where I saw it, I don't know if these were conversations I overheard with people, this was pre-social media, But I remember when, like people started sort of saying, like, "you need to have your characters talk about safe sex. This has to be a conversation that happens before they get into bed." And I remember people being like, "oh, but it's gonna ruin the vibe" and yet-- Like, do you remember this? I mean, yeah, this all happened, right? There still people--

Sarah MacLean 31:47
--Not long ago, a pretty big author said, you know, publicly, "Let's just all agree that my characters are all clean and are having safe sex because I don't want to write condoms anymore." Which, look, fine, It's a it's a bit of like a, you know, I don't write contemporaries, but it's a bit of, I imagine, like, "oh, now we have to pause, pause now for a condom break." But like, some people do it really great, first of all. And second of all, it's just good sense, everyone!

Jennifer Prokop 32:17
One of the most interesting conversations I had on Twitter, though, was that gay men now can take PrEP, right, which is essentially instead of using condoms

Sarah MacLean 32:28
Yes, I've seen ads for these on this on TV.

Jennifer Prokop 32:32
One of the things that's like, really interesting is like that can be part of your, like, your Grindr profile or whatever, if you're on PrEP, and in order to keep on it, you have to be tested, I think every, like, every month or whatever, I will get these details right in show notes. And so, you know, one of the things is like in gay romance, that that like sort of conversation might be changing because it's essentially part of the, like part of the scene already. So it's really interesting to me how even the rules for like, like male / female romances might be different from gay romances or lesbian romances in terms of like that safe sex conversation because the way, essentially the ways we can protect ourselves from sexually transmitted diseases and from pregnancy are so different than they were when Jane feather was writing this historical, right, in 1996. [Right.] So and I just think that's really interesting that contraception the sort of putting on a condom is so normalized now I notice it if it's not there.

Sarah MacLean 33:35
In contemporaries, for sure. I mean, like, I've never, I've never written a condom, in a book.

Jennifer Prokop 33:41
No, of course.

Sarah MacLean 33:43
And I partially that's because of, you know, it's because of sheepskin, and soaking, and all that, but I mean, like, Elizabeth Hoyt has written condoms. Lisa uses has used like half a lemon, I want to say, or a brandy soaked sponge, so like there are certainly contraception becomes a part of it and then--

Jennifer Prokop 34:05
Pulling out, I think is one that happens in historicals.

Sarah MacLean 34:05
yeah, I've used pulling out a lot. [sure] and I just you know assume all my heroes are clean.. But the, but again, in contemporaries have to have to clear a different bar I think then historicals do. And that's because of reality, that's because we live in the same world as characters. I think it's really interesting, look we're doing a whole podcast about Kresley Cole, nobody does birth control like Kresley does, where literally Valkyries have to eat, you know demons have a seal, like they're just so there's so many ways that Kresley tackles contraception in like a important way

Jennifer Prokop 34:11
And fertility, right. Yeah, absolutely. Like it's really coded into the world, but in a way that often where women are in charge, versus women being like victimized by it.

Sarah MacLean 34:59
Well, and that's Classic Kresley, right?

Jennifer Prokop 35:02
on brand.

Sarah MacLean 35:03
Where do you want to go from here, Jen?

Jennifer Prokop 35:05
I mean, I want us to talk about miscarriages. And I want us to talk about abortion.

Sarah MacLean 35:09
Well, let's talk about abortion. Because so, I brought up early in the episode, but aside from those early drafts, yeah, you could just you could drink a thing, and it would magically wave away the problem. [Yeah.] We don't have that in contemporaries anymore. I mean, we've never had that in contemporaries. And again, it's because the bar is higher, right. You have to clear a higher bar when it comes to contraception. But we have a couple of problematic things that happen in contemporaries. And we have a couple of, and we have started really see an evolution. I think, like we have seen the normalization of condoms. And I want to say, I want to give a nod to the normalization of Plan B. [Yeah.] Do you want to talk about Plan B?

Jennifer Prokop 35:55
Yeah, I would love to talk about Plan B. So it's really interesting because in that list of 15 books, it wasn't like 15 books where an abortion happened. I think there were like a handful.

Sarah MacLean 36:04
Yeah, five or six.

Jennifer Prokop 36:06
Yeah. And then there was sort of another group where the heroines use Plan B. And one of them I read is by an author named, by an author, Melanie Greene, who I actually know from the Tournament of Books-- Hi, Melanie! And she's written a book called "Roll of a Lifetime." And I read it today. And it's really interesting because the heroine, Rachel, is a single, like a single mother, but they're divorced fathers in the picture, but he's real... he's a real jerk. He doesn't pay his child support on time, he doesn't always, you know, their daughter is two, he doesn't pick her up or drop her off on time, and Rachel is kind of financially stressed, but also, she you know, she's worried enough about him that she doesn't want him having her address, right? So she has like a very guarded relationship with him. And he has this big Greek American family and so there's like a lot of family obligations, and she ends up dating her ex's boss, this guy, Theo is that hero, but they get together and it's kind of like an just like an affair, like very casual and they have sex, like the first time and then a week or two later they're together again, and the condom breaks. And I will tell you, the scene is so matter of fact. And they're just it's just like this interlude they had an hour or two to be together, and he says to her, okay, you go pick up your daughter, Hannah, and you go put her to bed, and I will go to the pharmacy, and I'll pick up the emergency contraception, and then I'll meet you back at your house and you can take it. And it was... and she's like, "Great, sounds like a plan." And I love the detail. Like, you know, sometimes authors just get that one detail right? And here's what it is. He looked it up on his phone before going into the drugstore, because he wanted to know what it looked like.

Sarah MacLean 37:55
You want to get the right thing.

Jennifer Prokop 37:57
Yes!

Sarah MacLean 37:58
That's dreamy.

Jennifer Prokop 37:59
It was! He buys the name brand, and not the generic, because he really wants her to understand that he was taking this seriously. And then when he gets and then this part's actually kind of romantic. I mean, again like,

Sarah MacLean 38:12
Oh god, you're such a romance reader!

Jennifer Prokop 38:14
No wait! Listen to this! Listen to this! He says to her, "I want to stay. I want to stay overnight. I'm worried. I'm, you know, what if? You know it can be painful. You can have cramping, and your daughter's here." And she's like, "Okay, but I called my friend, so I don't want you to stay." And he's like, "okay." But he wanted to and I'm sorry, that's fucking romantic, everybody.

Sarah MacLean 38:38
No, it's perfect. Its nobility, heroic nobility, right? I've said 1000 times, that the hero's, in every romance novel the hero has to be a king. They don't have to be royal. They do have to be a king, and that's heroic nobility. And like, that is a perfect example. That guy's a king of Duane Reed! [yeah] That's a New York drugstore. The king of Walgreens.

Jennifer Prokop 38:59
Of CVS! Right, but here's my point like, yes, it's like a small moment in the book. And then that's it. It's not a big deal. They don't talk about it again

Sarah MacLean 39:06
No! Becasue really, it really shouldn't be. It's a pill that you took after you had sex. It's fine.

Jennifer Prokop 39:12
Yeah, it's fine. And the fact that it is coded as a romantic moment, to me, was really meaningful in this book, because what it's saying is, this is a decision, like we made together, right?

Sarah MacLean 39:26
Its partnership, [Yes.] Look. romance novels are about finding equal partnership, about standing shoulder to shoulder with somebody who you want to spend the rest of your life with, right? Happily ever after in a romance novel involves partnership. And we have seen over the years, a whole lot of books about partnership around pregnancy, partnership around babies-- like the secret baby trope is about noble men who quote, "do the right thing" and marry the girl. Right? And, and are our solid, sound partners in a relationship. And this is also really wonderful partnership. It's, "we're in this together, you are not wholly responsible for not getting pregnant, I'm responsible, too." And like that's real sexy.

Jennifer Prokop 40:24
It was! And you know what? I think it's it, and that's why, I think our conception of that first time you saw a condom-- and it felt fumbling and awkward and weird, right? no, because it's like us saying, it's the couple saying, "our safety is important. Your health and safety is important to me." And this is the same thing, right?

Sarah MacLean 40:46
I would really love, and I'm going to text, I'm going to text, I'm going to tweet at Bowling Green and see if the guy, the people there, know. But I would really love it, if you're a listener, and you can sort of think back to your old school experiences, I'd really love to know who started this condom thing. [Yeah.] Because they were not on the page in those early contemporaries.

Jennifer Prokop 41:10
No, they weren't, never.

Sarah MacLean 41:12
No! Who...

Jennifer Prokop 41:13
When did that happen? Yeah.

Sarah MacLean 41:14
Can somebody find a date? I would guess it has something to do with the AIDS epidemic.

Jennifer Prokop 41:20
Yeah, it must have, right.

Sarah MacLean 41:22
I mean, this is, this is me like super spitballing. But I would be very interested. I'm also going to ask Kelly Faircloth at Jezebel if she's done any research on this, because I feel like somebody out there knows where condoms came from in romance--

Jennifer Prokop 41:37
--when it started. Yeah--

Sarah MacLean 41:38
right? And maybe I'm wrong. Maybe they have been there since beginning. Maybe Mills and Boon has been using them forever.

Jennifer Prokop 41:45
I don't. I felt like there was a sea change, though. And I remember it happening, right? And I remember the conversations where people are like, "No way" and then it just happened. And I feel like this Melanie Greene book to me was the perfect example of how Plan B can be used the same way, right?

Sarah MacLean 42:01
Well, that Ruby Lang book. Yes. Which we recommended it on an on a another podcast here, but recently

Jennifer Prokop 42:10
When we did best friend's sibling, right?

Sarah MacLean 42:11
"Clean Breaks." The Heroine is an OBGYN and she, not only does she counsel a character on the page about abortion, the condom breaks. Ruby reminded us today that a condom breaks in that book. And the-- I'm just getting it, I'm just pulling it up-- and the hero basically says like, "I'll marry you." Everyone is like, "Um, no, thank you, first of all. Second of all, like I'm a professional human being. And also a fucking OB, and we're going to get some emergency contraception and it's going to be fine." Right? And, you know, Ruby's awesome and we love her. We stan her hard here.

Jennifer Prokop 42:58
I think the other side of the contraception question, though, is... because Jenny Holiday's whole "Bridesmaids Behaving Badly" series has women dealing with these issues in one way or another. So one of the friends has really severe endometriosis and her period is a plot point, right? Like and how, like how debilitating her pain is. And I've talked about one of those series, she then does get pregnant and has to like really consider: I never thought I'd be a mother. Is this what I want? But Wendy, who's another friend, takes Plan B. And then Jane, another one of them, is... they're going to be childless by choice. And you can only be childless by choice if you have contraception available to you! And so that is a series that aren't fully, for all of them, like weaves in the decisions that women are making-- about who and what they want their futures to be like. And then what, or not, and there's an-- I really like that there's no judgment or blaming. You know, Jane, not wanting kids is not really a thing that-- you know I'm spacing on her name, the one who was like "I would be I would desperately love kids but I have endometriosis"-- She's not mad that her friend doesn't want them. Right. Like it's just women with different choices and they all support each other. And I think that see that whole series is really committed, like Kresley, I think, to really talking about contraception in a, like, a really comprehensive way for different women at different points in their lives and what they want and different couples.

Sarah MacLean 44:39
Yeah, I mean, I think that there is, I think we-- but Jen, you and I've talked so much about the fact that these body issues, these kind of endometriosis, One of my very favorite romance novels of the last few years, is a really beautiful, erotic, friends to lovers romance called "Unconventional" by Isabel love. The heroine, So it's basically like "friends with benefits," like they know each other, they have mutual friends. They are each-- it's like they're the, they're the Marie and Jess in the "When Harry Met Sally" relationship here, they're like,

Jennifer Prokop 45:19
Oh, got it.

Sarah MacLean 45:19
Okay, um, they're like the Carrie Fisher and Bruno Kirby characters. So, and then they sort of meet through this couple, this middle couple. And they have this like beneficial relationship. She's divorced, because she had to have a hysterectomy when she was very young while she was married to another man. And he left her because he wanted to have children. And so she sort of has this sense of, well, there is no future. There's no long term relationship in my future because I can't have children, and like, that's part of a long term future. She has this relationship with with Charlie--that's the hero's name. And they have this like incredibly sexy relationship that involves exhibitionism and voyeurism. You'll love that part. And there's there are threesomes in it. And like, it's really an incredibly sexy relationship. And he starts to fall for her, and she's so panicked by shame. Like, she has such shame for this reality. I mean, like, this happens to women, and she doesn't, she's, she kind of protects herself and protects herrself from loving him because she's so afraid that he'll reject her. Because, you know, she feels in some way "less than" because she's had something happen to her. And he's ultimately, and he wants kids like he sort of is very open about the fact that he wants kids and she's just like, "I, you know, that's never going to happen, that's not going to happen." And then when it finally sort of, when it's when she reveals It, when she's like, "I love you, but I can't be with you because of this. I would never ask you to give up that dream to be with me." He's like, "I love you. Kids are separate from this. Kids don't-- you I love! kids are an imaginary thing."

Jennifer Prokop 47:16
Right? Right.

Sarah MacLean 47:17
And they have their happily ever after. And it's really beautifully done, because it's very honest. You know, we have all, I mean maybe we have not, I don't want to speak for every woman, but I feel like many, many, many, many women, myself included, have felt over time, sort of shame about things with our bodies that we can't control. [Yeah] and this book does that beautifully. And it feels very authentic and honest, and also super sexy.

Jennifer Prokop 47:50
Again, I used that like phrase earlier that sometimes your body betrays you, one. So I want to return to talking about abortion maybe at the end, because there's one book I think that's really interesting by Melonie Johnson. But I want to talk about miscarriage first because I do feel like, and you have written really one of my-- and I, you know I I'm not here to stan for Sarah MacLean all the time--

Sarah MacLean 48:15
--we don't stan for me that often--

Jennifer Prokop 48:18
But "Day of the Duchess" is probably one of my top three favorite romances ever.

Sarah MacLean 48:25
That's very kind.

Jennifer Prokop 48:27
And I think some, but miscarriage is something that romance does put on page. Abortion is something a little different; Miscarriage, it happens a lot. And I, and I actually wrote a whole piece once about it because I was just really curious...what is it that's happening on the page? And like not every miscarriage is sort of doing the same thing. It's mining different like emotional like depths. So I want you to talk about "Day the Duchess," but we can talk.. and I mentioned the Piper Huguley book,

Sarah MacLean 48:57
I should add, "Day of the Duchess" has stillbirth in it. I mean it's a [yeah], it is it's obviously, it's it's a type of miscarriage, but it's a lot. It's very intense. It does happen, it happens right at the very beginning of the book. I know that it, it has, I want, I just want to very strongly content warn this for anybody who who might have trouble with stillbirth as a plot. I mean, I, that book is very personal for me. I have not had a stillbirth. But I have had pregnancy issues. And I was working through some stuff. I wanted to write a book that was about women and the way that we relate to our bodies as failures. And that's because I was going through some stuff. I have had, I-I've had trouble with pregnancy. I've had I had trouble breastfeeding. I have felt a lot of shame about what my body can and cannot do. And I hate that. So many women, one in four women, one in four pregnancies, end in miscarriage and/or stillbirth. And the reality is that we are trained and conditioned to believe that that is a malfunction of our body. And the reality is, is that when 25% of something-- when 25% of times-- something happens, that's not a malfunction. It's just, it's just a thing that happens. And I hate that women are shamed by that. And I hate that it is so emotional and that it is so personal and that it is so private and that we keep it to ourselves and we struggle with so much anger and frustration. [Yeah], and I, that's all in this book. I mean, that's what this book is and yeah,

Jennifer Prokop 51:06
Well and I think the reader's experience is always really different. And one of the reasons that book moved me, right, is like not just because of the grovelling, but because of her journey and--

Sarah MacLean 51:19
You love a grovel.

Jennifer Prokop 51:20
I do love a grovel, but--

Sarah MacLean 51:21
--it is an epic grovel, I will admit.

Jennifer Prokop 51:23
Yeah, yeah, it is, but there's this part in particular where she's basically, she knows something is wrong. And you use, it's like I've called it a miscarriage, but you're, it's like really a stillbirth right?

Sarah MacLean 51:28
She's...very far along.

Jennifer Prokop 51:39
Yeah, she knows something is wrong. And to me, there's this, like the most chilling kind of scene in this book, and it is probably within the first 20 pages, maybe even earlier. She knocks on the door right there. They're separated. And the you know-- whoever answers the fucking door, the footman or whatever-- and she feels like she has to say that there's something wrong with the baby in order to get in the door. That's what I remember, right? And he's like, "there's someting wrong?" And she's like, "With the heir" essentially. And I remember thinking, not only is it this failure of her body, but it was this devastating moment where she knew that this baby was more important than she was in terms of how she was going to get the help she needed. And in that way, I guess, things have not really changed that significantly. But to me it was this, like, heart rending moment. And romance I know delivers those moments. But one of the things I've said to people about this book is: it's the rare romance that starts with the low moment, and it's the lowest of low moments, and then we have to see them recover. And I think it's brilliant and not just because you're sitting here, but

Sarah MacLean 52:59
Well, you're very kind. I mean, I do want to say one thing about that book because it's a-- you know that I struggled with it. Serafina, who is the main character of that book, she's the heroine of that book, believes she's barren. She's told after she loses the child by the doctor-- or the sort of male doctor who's been brought in as a voice of patriarchy-- that she'll never have children again. And so, and she, she has a very specific condition -- medically her stillbirth, her stillbirth is not coincidental. It's medical. It's a condition that actual real human females have. And she ends up believing that she is barren. And at the end, and I'm going to spoil the ending of this book. They have children. And they have them in the epilogue and they have more than one because my-- I realized that I couldn't write, I wanted to write a birth. I wanted to write a live birth. And I couldn't write the next live birth because it would be full of fear.

Jennifer Prokop 54:09
Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Sarah MacLean 54:10
--and terror. So I had to, I had to give them more than one child in that in that epilogue, and I ended up giving them lots of children. But I have received letters-- and I know that there's a lot of discussion in romancelandia about this--the sort of magic child that comes at the end for a barren couple. And I went back and forth. And there are two versions of that epilogue, one where they have children and one where they do not. And we-- my editor and I-- went over it again and again and again. And I actually just pulled the trigger on the epilogue literally the last possible day before it went to print. And I gave them children instead of not giving them children, and I did it for lots of reasons. And I can tell you they were happy either way. And I probably did it for me more than for them. It was this-- "Day the Duchess" is an incredibly personal book for me for many, many reasons. And so for me, it was really important to me that, that experience happened on the page and that they have happily ever after with children. But I want to say that there is there was no reason why they couldn't have happily ever after without children.

Jennifer Prokop 55:34
And it's funny because I know people struggle with that, I don't, I never struggle with it in historicals because I feel like-- some quack told her she couldn't have kids again based on.. what? you know. Yeah. And whereas in a contemporary,I will say the, like, "all of a sudden I just got pregnant because I was with the right man" plot.

Sarah MacLean 55:56
Right. The magic, magic sperm.

Jennifer Prokop 55:57
Yeah, that part -- meh. You can stop that. It's 2019.

Sarah MacLean 56:02
I mean, the baby epilogue is-- it's a lie. It's something that we all sort of need to talk about because it is sort of heteronormative. And there's, you know, there's a lot about it that is, that needs to be unpacked. And I think it's a conversation that it's healthy for us to have as romance, as people who talk about romance. But I also acknowledge that I love a baby in an epilogue, so you know, but I also have a baby and I like baby, so whatever.

Jennifer Prokop 56:30
That's a personal problem.

Sarah MacLean 56:31
If you know-- if your choice is-- it's "your body, your choice", "your marriage, your choice", "your partnership, your choice." And that's all we're just trying to get at.

Jennifer Prokop 56:41
Yeah, there's a lot of books with miscarriages.

Jennifer Prokop 56:44
Yeah, we've talked about that.

Sarah MacLean 56:44
Yeah, I mean, I want to just shout out my favorite Julia Quinn novel, which is "The Secret Diaries of Miss Miranda Cheever." It may not be Miss Miranda Cheever, but "Secret Diaries of Miranda Cheever" there's a miscarriage in that book that is devastating. I honestly believe that is Julia Quinn's best book, it is emotional and intense. And the miscarriage is so important. But again, it's told through the lens of the heroine's experience. And I know you have thoughts about this.

Sarah MacLean 57:16
Women, if it's happening to your body, it's your experience, you own it.

Jennifer Prokop 57:20
Right? Yeah, I believe that I totally do. And I think it also makes sense to me that romance would like, I don't know, mine miscarriage is a possible topic. Because it is so personal and because so much of romance is about, about hope and about.. and so like exploring the ways in which women experience failure, but then bounce back and figure out who they are after that. I think that for many women-- and I also think you're right, like it's not so--it's very hard to talk about. But then in a book, it gives you a way to like have that experience, right? You're with you're this heroine becomes your friend who is going through this experience. And I think that that is something that, it's a way for us to sort of collectively share our miscarriage stories kind of with each other.

Sarah MacLean 58:16
Sure, you know, loss of a child is normalized in romance, and that's valuable. That's valuable for every woman, every one of that 24% or 25% of women, of pregnancies. What's interesting is that 25% of women before they turned -- before they turn 45, in the United States-- will have an abortion. And we have not normalized abortion.

Jennifer Prokop 58:42
No. No, we sure have not.

Sarah MacLean 58:44
--as a genre.

Jennifer Prokop 58:46
Here's the bad way we've normalized it.

Sarah MacLean 58:49
Uhhh, I hate this way.

Jennifer Prokop 58:50
I do, too. And I'm real fucking over it, which is the hero has been traumatized by bad ex who had an abortion that he didn't want her to have.

Sarah MacLean 59:04
Yeah, she either didn't tell him, and then she told him to stick it to him, Or she didn't tell him she was pregnant and then he found out.

Jennifer Prokop 59:11
Yeah, like, it's real bad.

Sarah MacLean 59:13
Fuck. That. Noise. Burn it with fire.

Jennifer Prokop 59:18
That plot really needs to die. And you know what? Those are plots actually to that have been around a really long time. In one way or another.

Sarah MacLean 59:26
I want to, I'm going to confess something, which is 20 years ago, when those plots were everywhere. I liked that, because I was like, oh-- that again!-- it sort of says, it's code, it's codifying like nobility of the hero, right? Like it's codifying maturity, readiness for commitment, willingness to partner, the ability to be a decent father, and like take responsibility. These are all valuable tools

Jennifer Prokop 59:57
Like some deep well of emotional feeling, too, right?

Sarah MacLean 1:00:00
Sure, sure. It was, it's humanity, It's a hero's humanity coded in there. I get it. It's great shorthand, but at the same time, like it's real problematic shorthand.

Jennifer Prokop 1:00:10
Not right now.

Jennifer Prokop 1:00:12
You know it, for me, it was like pre- and post- Smith College. Pre Smith College there was, "Oh, I love theseevil abortion storylines." And after Smith College, I was like, "No. Absolutely not. Abortion is for everyone."

Jennifer Prokop 1:00:26
And I think it also really, I mean, here's the other thing, though, it doesn't just code something for the hero, it codes something for the heroine, right? Which is that she is committed to mothering and family. It's a very patriarchal way of like making sure we understand that this is "a good one," right? That this heroine is going to be different or better-- and better!-- right, and all those things because she would never do that.

Sarah MacLean 1:00:51
She would never do that to him. That's nonsense. A lot of people have very ordinary abortions, in marriages that are otherwise happy.

Jennifer Prokop 1:01:01
A book I really recommend that it's not a romance, It's called "Scarlet A: The ethics, law, and politics of ordinary abortion." And this woman, I saw her at the Chicago Humanities Festival. And she was this fascinating speaker where she was like, "we have like these sort of like, myths, these sort of abortion stories we tell. And then when we talk to real women who've had abortions, and none of them are true." It It is a great, great book. But I remember we've talked about our love for like kind of category romances in the 80s, and one of a series I really loved was the series by Barbara Boswell where these brothers all married these sisters.

Sarah MacLean 1:01:39
Oh, I love it already.

Jennifer Prokop 1:01:41
I know the Ramseys and the Bradys-- and here's the thing, in one of them, and I really remember this, and in one of them, Erin is the heroine. And she has like kids already, she's-- of course she's still like, she's 24-- and her, you know, she got pregnant right after high school and got married, and now the Dad's out of the picture. And she gets with this new man, and she they're not using birth control because he thinks he's barren because, from his previous marriage, they weren't able to have kids. And of course, now-- all of a sudden-- Erin's pregnant and he says, "You've been cheating on me!" They run into his ex wife at the mall, and the ex wife is like, "I'm just so glad that this happened. You know, it wasn't that I was barren it was that basically like his sperm and my egg like bad body chemistry"-- some 80s bullshit-- but I remember, I vividly remember this plot and and how angry, like rightfully so, Erin was at this ex wife for like, not ever really being honest with the hero right? But it's also super problematic to imagine that somehow she had medical knowledge that he didn't. Right? it's also crazy and it's this right the bad ex, who either withheld Or aborted a child, or whatever is s ... I... it's an automatic like, first of all, I'm not reading your book anymore. And I'm probably not reading you anymore.

Sarah MacLean 1:03:10
Yeah, yeah. I mean, certainly, you know, somebody on Twitter, I sort of ranted a little bit about this on Twitter yesterday, and somebody on Twitter came forward and was like, "In the 90s, I wrote this book." And I was like, "In the 90s, it was a different time!" We all have to have room to grow, right? We have room. We, I talk all the time about the fact that I've been writing for 10 years, what I wrote in 2009 is not representative necessarily, of what I write now in 2019, and like, that's just life. We have to have room to grow.

Jennifer Prokop 1:03:43
Sure. And that's romance. And that romance, right?

Sarah MacLean 1:03:46
We're moving too quickly. we're iterating on society, the whole time. That's fine. What I want is for us to as writers, as responsible citizens of the genre, for us to just try and do better. That's all we can ask for is that everybody try and do better. Can I just have a fun moment? It hasn't been a lot of fun moments, but I want to give a shout out to the only vasectomy I can think of, Jennifer. Which I had not actually thought about until you told that crazy story about the brothers marrying the sisters and the like, how he thought he was barren. And then he thought she was cheating on him. And that he--

Jennifer Prokop 1:04:24
The 80s! They also owned a mall, so it's all bad.

Sarah MacLean 1:04:28
Sure. Of course they did. Yeah.

Jennifer Prokop 1:04:30
The Ramsey Park. Well, the what their last name is Ramsey, the Ramsey Park Mall.

Sarah MacLean 1:04:36
Oh my god. What?

Jennifer Prokop 1:04:37
I actually bought these books on Amazon because I like right. I was like, I gotta have--

Sarah MacLean 1:04:41
Sure. Seminal texts. So... speaking of seminal texts,

Jennifer Prokop 1:04:48
I was like "ha ha." All right, I love you so much right now.

Sarah MacLean 1:04:53
Air high five. So okay, Jude Devereaux, who everyone knows is like my seminal text, "The Black Lyon," at the beginning of my time in romance, Jude Devereaux wrote a family saga, every book, like every book she ever has ever written has been a Montgomery book. And they have this like intense Montgomery, this Montgomery family tree, and the Montgomerys have a lot of twins. A lot. A lot. You're making a funny face.

Jennifer Prokop 1:05:22
Yeah, no, I'm just curious about like, tell me more. Where's this all going?

Sarah MacLean 1:05:25
FYI everybody, Jen and I have a twin interstitial coming. So, I'm not going to give you too much information about the Montgomery twins because I'm sure we'll talk about the full twin experience then, but this is a good one. So at some point, so "Sweet liar" is this contemporary, like wacky kind of time travel-y? ghosty? like St. Valentine's Day Massacre, Chicago period? Like weird... there's a lot packed into this book "Sweet Liar" Hero's name is Michael. I don't remember the heroines name because it doesn't matter. Michael is a twin. And he's like, he has a lot-- There's a lot-- Michael is pretty dreamy and weird and kind of amazing. But there's this legend in the Montgomery family of one of the cousin's got, he's... here... They're so virile, all the men, all the men in the Montgomery family. Virility is also a big piece of romances of a time, right? And they're so virile, and one of the men had a vasectomy, because his wife is like, "I've had too many of your fucking babies. Like, we're not doing this anymore. You're getting a vasectomy." And so he went off and he got a vasectory and he came back and then they had sex, and she got pregnant, and he was convinced she had cheated on him. And she was like, "Fuck you. I'm getting a paternity test for this baby," which she did. And she was like, "see it is your baby, you're just too virile for vasectomy."

Jennifer Prokop 1:06:42
I am dead over here.

Sarah MacLean 1:07:16
If I remember correctly, he buys her like a Porsche and like a 10 carat diamond ring to apologize--

Jennifer Prokop 1:07:24
for basically having super Montgomery sperm--

Sarah MacLean 1:07:26
For basically having crazy Jude Deveraux sperm.

Jennifer Prokop 1:07:31
Oh, guys, that's some good stuff right there, that really is.

Sarah MacLean 1:07:35
You know what, that's the perfect example of like, some crazy shit and romance novel, that definitely coded some real problematic, like virility issues into my life. However, I really love that a vasectory was on the page. And I love that the heroine was like, "fuck you were getting a paternity test." Like, it was great. This isn't actually the heroine of that book, but whatever it's referenced. It's a story that's referenced in there. I like that the vasectory was just codified like, this is a thing that happens even though in this particular case it didn't work because he has super sperm.

Jennifer Prokop 1:08:07
Well, I mean, Hello Sarah.

Sarah MacLean 1:08:09
But obviously, he's a Montgomery, so stay tuned for our twin episode and more Montgomery shenanigans. Um, what else?

Jennifer Prokop 1:08:17
I want to end this episode by talking about this Melonie Johnson book. So I don't know if we're ready for it yet.

Sarah MacLean 1:08:22
Let's do it. Because we're,

Jennifer Prokop 1:08:24
yeah, we're like, we're over an hour, everyone's like, "Oh my god, stop being so angry!" "No, never." Um, here's the thing. One of the things that was really interesting is when you asked on Twitter about abortion books, like there really were a handful, right? So there's a book by Jenny Trout, one of the Tiffany Reisz-- Nora, I guess in one of the Original Sinners books. But I want to talk about this book by Melonie Johnson called "Once upon a Bad Boy," and it doesn't actually come out until June 25, So I don't want to spoil it entirely. But this is one of the few books-- like among a very small list of books-- we could have where like a heroine has an abortion. And, and in this case, it was something that the heroine and hero were like teenage, dating, dated as teenagers. They broke up, it was very sudden. He broke up with her. And then we get, it's 10-11 years later. So now, you know, they're almost 30, and one of the things that's really fascinating about this book, in terms of-- that the exploration of her journey, like the the abortion, is she does not have any regrets at all. About, I mean, she has moments of like, what-if-ism, right? What if, what if I would have made a different choice? She doesn't have any regrets. She doesn't feel any guilt. She doesn't feel like she did anything wrong. But what she has done is kept it a secret for 10 years because women in our society just don't talk about their abortions. And so that the pressure of keeping that all inside is something that has really-- like right, it's it's not the "what she did" that's the problem. It's the pressure to keep it a secret. And this is something that only her grandmother knows. I don't want to spoil the book, or like necessarily talk too much about why it happened. I was, I will be honest, I was really on the fence with it. I'm kind of ready for the heroine who is like, "Fuck yeah, I had abortion" and we just all0. move on. Right. It as matter of fact as taking Plan B but--

Sarah MacLean 1:10:31
--yeah, but is that really authentic?

Jennifer Prokop 1:10:33
Well, I think.. we certainly.. Well, according to "The Scarlet A" book, It is.

Sarah MacLean 1:10:37
No, no, I don't mean that. I mean, I mean, is it authentic for us to just sort of, for many of us to step forward and say--

Jennifer Prokop 1:10:44
Yes, I like Yeah.

Sarah MacLean 1:10:46
"Fuck yeah, I had an abortion." I mean, right. This is the problem, right? Like, we keep, we've spent the entire episode talking about how we keep our bodies secret.

Jennifer Prokop 1:10:57
Yes,

Sarah MacLean 1:10:57
Like we protect, and it's not It's, I mean, in part, its protection, right? Nobody wants--I spent the last two days like, you know, fighting people on the internet. Not everybody has the bandwidth or the desire to do that work. But the truth is, as long as this is, as long as our bodies, as long as the uterus is politicized, speaking up like that is a risk. And it's a risk that we should not expect any woman to have to take like,

Jennifer Prokop 1:11:33
absolutely.

Sarah MacLean 1:11:34
It's a risk that if you are willing to take it-- Jen and I are here for you! like we, I will, I Sarah, will fight you-- will fight for you. I will fight alongside

Jennifer Prokop 1:11:43
But we shouldn't insist that people have to--

Sarah MacLean 1:11:46
Yeah, and I think like there is a certain sense like look, it takes a lot to get past, codified, ingrained shame. And that is not to say that anybody should feel shame about an abortion. And that is to say that like many, many people in society expect you to. And that's, and like the way patriarchy sucks.

Jennifer Prokop 1:12:07
Well, and, you know, a really powerful piece I saw on Jezebel today was sort of like, okay, so for the past two days, everyone, you know, lots of people--women-- are getting out there and sharing their abortion stories, but we're not changing hearts and minds, the people who are closed to this, the people who, you know, think that it's, you know, who are pro-forced birth. Those people don't care about our stories. And I ended up finding, therefore, Sadie is the heroine of this Melanie Johnson book, I therefore-At first I was sort of like, I want you to feel less conflicted. But as the book went on, I ended up really feeling like it was an honest portrayal of, like, sort of--we all have regrets, right. And regret was, you know, it was a man she loved, it was a relationship that ended suddenly, it was, you know, now someone who's back in her life, it's a secret she kept from her best friend. It's, you know, and I, and I really found that journey to her acceptance of-- not the decision she made, she never regrets that decision-- but like the need to hide it. And that felt, I will be honest with you. I have never read anything like it in romance before.

Sarah MacLean 1:13:31
Well, that is a high praise. No matter, no matter what this book is like, that's, I want to read thing-- that we we owe it to women to tell every possible story. We owe it to all people, to all marginalized people to tell every possible story of happiness. And that is, that's our work as writers--as a genre.

Jennifer Prokop 1:13:53
Well, and I think one of the things I kept thinking about, was we talk a lot about representation matters, right? Like it is really vitally important that if you that we're not sort of saying like, okay, I read this romance with a black character, now I've read romance with black characters. No, you haven't! You read one! And part of the problem with there being so few stories in romance where women have abortions is then we hang our entire like hopes, dreams and needs for that book, that story inromance, on this one book.

Sarah MacLean 1:14:29
Right.

Jennifer Prokop 1:14:29
Right. Are these three books? And that is why we need more of them.

Sarah MacLean 1:14:34
We need more. I mean, the fact that.. Jen is right. I mean, I said 15 books the beginning there, there are maybe 15 books on that list. Many of them are Plan B. Some of them have no abortion at all, but have a doctor in them. So if we're talking about fewer fewer than 10, less than 10 books on this list, hive minded from our romance Twitter people, and old school romance, the book club that I host on Facebook-- Which you can join, If you'd like to--

Sarah MacLean 1:15:02
Yeah, we'll put it in show notes. I'm like, "That's an incredible hivemind." And if we can only come up with this number, like there aren't that many more, there really just aren't, I'm sure of it. I mean, every, if again, we go back to one quarter of all American women under the age of 45 have had an abortion. And there are--that is millions of stories!-- and we're not, and what is happening? I mean, it just takes us back to that original question, which is: why in this genre that has made, carved out, such important domestic space-- and I say domestic as, like female centered, like women's centered space; as a genre, as a matter of course, centering the female gaze and female identity and female politics, or women's politics, I should say-- how have we never, how have we not come to a place where there are at least, you know, 250 we can point to?

Jennifer Prokop 1:15:02
we'll put it in show notes.

Jennifer Prokop 1:16:12
Exactly! I mean, and that's the part where when you see how small the sample size is and you know, this Melanie Johnson book-- I'm about where you're going to hear about it next week-- it's going to be available a month later and we will signal boost it, you know, to high heaven once it actually comes out-- because I do think that I found Sadie's journey as like an individual character, and her moments of sadness, and her her sense that she couldn't... I mean, I found it all very moving and I thought, you know what, we deserve to see a woman who was, "Yeah, I kind of have some regrets and sometimes I wish 'What if' and I still know I did the right thing, and it was still my decision to make."

Sarah MacLean 1:16:56
Well, because bodies are nuanced!

Jennifer Prokop 1:16:58
Feelings are complicated!

Sarah MacLean 1:17:00
It is not an easy discussion, which is clear in the in the world. And it's why Jen and I rage so hard when anybody comes at this with a black and white answer. This is a hard conversation to have. And all I think I'm saying is: I stand with women being able to make their own choices about their own bodies. And that's really all.

Jennifer Prokop 1:17:24
That's it. Right? Well, and I think that that's why we don't, we started out talking about trans men and trans women and and sort of bodies and who we are but-- if you believe in bodily autonomy for women, then I think you have to believe in bodily autonomy for everybody. And I think you have to look at people and say, "I want you to be who you are in the world. And I want the world to accept you and that journey for what it is and if romance cannot be there for that in every way, then romance is not doing what it needs to do to support the people who need it the most."

Sarah MacLean 1:18:07
Right? If it's the genre of hope, and happiness, it has to be the genre of hope and happiness for all of us.

Jennifer Prokop 1:18:17
Yeah, no exceptions. No exceptions.

Sarah MacLean 1:18:21
No.

Jennifer Prokop 1:18:22
Except Nazis. Except Nazis.

Jennifer Prokop 1:18:26
But I mean, and that's the part where I find this conversation and these books, you know, and I know we talked about like a probably 50 different books today. And we didn't even talk about all the books that we could have. But I mean, I think we were really interested in exploring what is it that romance is doing really well? Romance is talking about miscarriage. It's talking about grieving and loss. You know, romance is talking about condoms and safe sex. Romance is talking about preventing pregnancy. But it's not really talking at all about abortion. And this is about to be a right that many of us are not going have access to anymore. And that fear is something I would like to see romance normalizing for ourselves as women and for readers. And I get I'm not a writer, right? I don't have to make a living off my book selling and putting my kid through college. You know, I know those risks are out there. But I hope that we all get behind Melonie Johnson's book and prove that there is a market for like nuanced stories about women who make hard decisions for themselves, or easy decisions for themselves, but they make those decisions for themselves.

Sarah MacLean 1:18:35
Except Nazis.

Sarah MacLean 1:18:54
People deserve to have body autonomy. period. Tthat said, what I do want to add is that we are, I think, and this is me sort of looking into my romance crystal ball, I think this week could be, this could have started a sea change among writers thinking about the fact that we don't-- we limit, we create space to talk about bodies, our bodies and how they work. And like you said, we create space to talk about sorrow and shame around the way our bodies work. But we don't we have limit, we have stopped, we've come to a stopping point when we get to this piece of the puzzle. And I think a lot, a lot of romance novelists, I mean, just in the last two days, I've heard from so many writers who acknowledged that they've never tackled it, but they want to. And so I would like to think that a year from now we're going to start seeing in books a little more. I don't think we're ever going to see it every book, like I don't think we're-- and that's not what I'm asking for--But I think we're going to see more and more and more of these stories on the page. And that's all we're asking for. We're just asking for us all to just think a little more carefully about representing that choice that a lot of us have made. And, and I mean a lot! I just, I gave an interview about this today and I just feel like I said at some point, you know, everyone, everyone knows a woman who has who has done this, everyone has interacted with a person who has done this, you may not know, and nobody is asking anyone to risk like I said earlier--

Jennifer Prokop 1:21:28
--if it's not safe for you to share that story, either emotionally or physically or for whatever reason, like I like, no one's gonna push anybody into the limelight. But romance then is a way-- like miscarriage-- where we can share our stories and, there's truth in fiction. I say that to my students all the time.

Sarah MacLean 1:21:49
Romance is a private space. It is private space for people who read romance and it's and it's so far removed from like the prying eyes of the world, the rest of the world. If we can't have this conversation here in our private space, where can we have this conversation safely? And look, the reality is that readers-- there are going to be readers who don't like it. And so it's going to take risk, and it's going to take bravery. And I really am looking forward to the, to the books that come from it.

Jennifer Prokop 1:22:24
Yeah. Well, and you know what? I think your crystal ball is right on because when I think about the books that I talked about tonight, like specifically, right, Jenny Holiday's books, that whole series, the Melanie Green Book, the Melonie Johnson book, these are books that are all 2018 or later.

Sarah MacLean 1:22:41
Yeah, Ruby Lang.

Jennifer Prokop 1:22:42
Right. Ruby Lang. I mean, so we are already we are talking about old books within a lot of the books that we are like talking about right now are RIGHT NOW. So we, these are really the women who are putting these things on the page. They're the forerunners. And if we support these books and buy these books and show that there's a market for these stories, then we work-- we will get more of them. I know that there are books that we missed we tried to cast the widest possible net.

Sarah MacLean 1:23:11
Well, we've only had 48 hours, so we're going to, I'm committed to reading all those books on the list. And so you know, follow me on twitter, follow the Fated Mates Twitter account, and I'll tweet about the ones that are great and hopefully we'll get more. If you have a book, listeners, if you have read a book where there's an abortion on the page, please please rec us you know, good good abortion rep, we want that. Tell us about books that have meant something to you, as representing kind of body autonomy and and the body politic. We're interested in that. Jen and I especially are interested in how, how fertility and contraception and all of that lives on the page. If you can point to an early use of a condom in a contemporary, we want to hear all about it.

Jennifer Prokop 1:24:16
definitely want to hear all about that.

Sarah MacLean 1:24:18
I'm gonna do some research. And you know, again, follow Fated Mates on Twitter, follow me on Twitter, follow us on Instagram, we'll put everything there.

Jennifer Prokop 1:24:24
I mean, I think that's it, we are, it's a call to action, right? Because we know that when you change people's worldview and their empathy and the way they think about the choices we get to make and to have that we change the world. The urgency of this isn't just like, because we want you to have better books to read. It's because when we change the way we think about what our possibilities are, we change our futures.

Sarah MacLean 1:24:53
Well, that's a good place to stop. I think.You're listening to Fated Mates, Everybody. Follow us on Twitter @fatemates follow us on Instagram @fatedmatespod. Go over to our website, fatedmates.net and check out the show notes on your apps or over on fatedmates.net. You can leave comments there. You can talk to us any time. Leave us reviews, all that good stuff. Next week we are back with "Dark skye." Another another broken demon man. He's a demon, right? I mean, a winged demon.

Jennifer Prokop 1:25:35
And I think it's going to be very relevant and interesting conversation. Yeah, to this one that we well. Kresley always is, but I think this book in particular, is really landing at a time where I think it's gonna be really interesting. So, go out and do something you want to do with your body today.

Sarah MacLean 1:25:52
Have a good night.

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