S06.36: The Romance Matriarchy: Moms, Grandmothers, and Aunties
We don’t often talk about secondary characters in romance, but this week, we’re talking about the women who provide wisdom, council and laughs in romance—moms, grandmothers and aunties! We talk about the shocking epidemic of orphaned main characters in romance, about how extended family provides nuance in the books, and about our very favorite mothers, grandmothers, aunties and adopted older ladies in books.
Thanks to all the women who provide care and sage advice out in the world. We appreciate you.
Our next read along is Joanna Shupe’s The Devil of Downtown, from her Uptown Girls trilogy. It’s Jen’s favorite in the series. Get it at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Kobo, Apple or your local indie.
Happy anniversary to our founding Patreon members — May marks one year of our Patreon and our Discord! We love you a whole lot. Learn more about the Patreon and go join those cool people who love romance as much as we do at patreon.com/fatedmates.
Show Notes
Crush, the new apple ad is honestly so bleak, and the backlash was so extreme that they pulled the ad. Look how easily they could have made it cool, though.
The Matriarchy isn’t just a dream, as it turns out.
The Gaza Evacuation Fund Auction raised $160,000 and it’s not too late to donate to one of the funds of people trying to get to safety.
Books Mentioned This Episode
Sponsors
Elle Kennedy, author of The Dixon Rule,
available in print, ebook or audio from
Amazon, Apple, Barnes & Noble, Kobo & your local indie
Sophie Sullivan, author of Love Naturally,
available in print or ebook from
Amazon, Apple, Barnes & Noble, Kobo & your local indie
Aethon Books, publisher of A.N. Skye’s Keeper of Scarlet Petals,
available in print or ebook, or with
your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited
06.32: Secret Babies, Friends-to-Lovers and More — Books we love with tropes we don’t
This is the first of three episodes inspired by the incredible time we had at Fated Mates Live in Brooklyn. During the event (which was so so fun we love every single one of you who came!), we asked guests Nikki Payne, Kate Clayborn and Lauren Billings of Christina Lauren to choose an interstitial topic they would like us to tackle on the show. Lauren chose a great one: Exceptions to our rules, meaning…tropes we don’t care for that are done really really well.
So! This one is for everyone who’s ever asked Jen for Secret Baby or Virgin Heroes and anyone who’s ever asked Sarah for Friends to Lovers or Spies. We talk about the books that make us go…not that…but maybe that?
We also want to thank the following publishers and authors for their incredible generosity in making sure that almost every attendee of the Live went home with a romance novel. We are so lucky to share Romancelandia with you: Avon Books, Ballantine Books, Blue Box Press, Dell, Grand Central/Forever, Gallery Books, Lauren Blakely, LJ Evans, Pippa Grant, Ana Huang, Parker S. Huntington & LJ Shen, Elle Kennedy, Avery Maxwell, Ava Miles, Max Monroe, Kathryn Nolan, Amari Nylix, Meghan Quinn, Piper Rayne, P Rayne, Stephanie Rose, Lucy Score, & TL Swan.
Photo credits: Stephanie Keith
Show Notes
We had the very best time at Fated Mates Live, and it wouldn’t have been nearly as fun without Lauren being there. Christina Lauren’s newest book, The Paradise Problem, is out May 14th. Preorder it now, and check out their tour schedule to go see them (they’re even more terrific in person) when they’re near you!
Solar eclipses are very cool, and Jen really should have gone home…. as it turns out, 95% is not anything like 100%! If you have the chance, you should go get in that path of totality. Jen’s brother Erik was at his office rooftop in downtown Cleveland and saw people getting married, and also took a very cool video at totality. New York earthquake twitter was pretty funny, too.
Jen, staunchly anti- virgin heroes since 2018.
Kevin Costner’s speech about luck from Bull Durham.
The book about women in the CIA is called The Sisterhood: The Secret History of Women at the CIA by Liza Mundy.
Books Mentioned This Episode
Sponsors
Pippa Grant, author of Until It Was Love,
available in special edition hardcover, paperback, audiobook, ebook or
with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited
and
Charis Michaels, author of Say Yes to the Princess,
available at Amazon, Apple, Barnes & Noble, Kobo, or
your local independent bookstore
and
Adriana Herrera, author of The Bootlegger’s Bounty,
available in print or ebook, or
with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited
S02.30: Nobody's Baby But Mine by Susan Elizabeth Phillips : Grandma has her Shotgun
We are feeling really proud of ourselves this week because Nobody’s Baby But Mine was the perfect isolation read for us both. The reread confirmed to both of us that this is, beat-for-beat, one of the best romcoms of all time. We’re talking problematic plots, the 90s, what we expect from jerk heroes and how Susan Elizabeth Phillips is better at flawed characters than anyone else in the game.
We love having you with us! — subscribe on your favorite podcasting platform and like/review the podcast, please!
In two weeks, we’re reading Victoria Dahl’s Taking the Heat. We know it’s tough to get it in print, but find it in e at your local library or at: Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo, or in print, mailed from your local indie (which is probably still shipping!)
Show Notes
Americans are stress buying chickens. Yes, eggs are more expensive, but this is not a good idea.
Speaking of chicks, now that Jen knows what happens to the chicks in the hatchery at the Museum of Science and Industry, she's back on Team Train Room.
One day, we'll be able to visit the Butterfuly exhibit at the Museum of Natural History again.
Nick Heath and Conor McGahey have figured out a way to keep those announcing skills sharp.
When it comes to the SEP-Multiverse, we like the whackadoodle one at the circus (Kiss an Angel), the one with Bobby Tom (Heaven Texas), the one with the lazy golfer (Lady Be Good), and the one with Sugar Beth (Ain't She Sweet).
What happened to the Lamont House romance collection?
Charlotte Stein has a suggestion for authors of contemporary romance.
Last year, Sarah wrote about technology in romance for the Washington Post.
We talked about Prisoner of My Desire with Joanna Shupe, which is another book about a heroine who has done something very wrong.
Maybe you're looking for actual secret baby books.
The one with bad sex is Call Me Irresistible.
After 9/11, Saturday Night Live and The Onion had to figure out how to be funny again.
Our next book is Taking the Heat (aka Cunnilingus Gabe) by Victoria Dahl.
TRANSCRIPT
Sarah MacLean 0:01 / #
Jen, I'm so proud of us. We picked the right book this week,
Jennifer Prokop 0:08 / #
We picked the right book! I have not been able to read all week. And I mean, I think that's all of us, right? It's so hard. And I picked this up to read and read it in one sitting.
Sarah MacLean 0:20 / #
I fell right into it. And then halfway through, I texted Susan, and I was like, Susan, I'm rereading Nobody's Baby But Mine right now. And I just had to text you to tell you that you are a genius. And this book is like, as wonderful as it was in when I read it the first time. I mean, it's better now. It's better because I'm older. Like, it's better because I get it more.
Jennifer Prokop 0:50 / #
I was telling Kate that I read this book the first time when I was 10 years younger than they were and now I'm 10 years older. So that is also really wild.
Sarah MacLean 1:00 / #
Yeah, it really changes things. Anyway. Welcome everybody to Fated Mates. I am Sarah McLean. I write romance novels and I read romance novels.
Jennifer Prokop 1:11 / #
And I'm Jen Prokop. I'm a romance critic, and I real shit-talker on Twitter.
Sarah MacLean 1:16 / #
A real big shit talker these days, man. You're like..
Jennifer Prokop 1:19 / #
I'm sorry, everybody. We're all trying to deal with it in our own way.
Sarah MacLean 1:26 / #
We're all just getting through. Jen is a Scorpio. It just happens sometimes.
Jennifer Prokop 1:31 / #
It's true. I've been actually trying to stay off because
it's hard. Twitter is hard. A side from just like a lot of like crazy nonsense information out there because oh, we're still in self isolation, just checking in. Yeah, it's day 15 here in New York. And that's a lot of days.
A lot of days.
Sarah MacLean 1:57 / #
And so a lot of people are just tweeting, whatever they're just retweeting like, whatever nonsense some rando has posted to the internet like it's facts. And a lot of people are just getting stressed. Like yesterday, there was a piece in The Times about people who are stress-buying chickens, baby chicks, which I think is interesting on a couple of levels. Like one: Do we really think we're gonna run out of eggs? Like is that a thing we're concerned about? Because I, we're here-- I'm here like reporting in from ground zero of the pandemic in America-- and I will tell you, we have eggs at our corner store. But also, it seems that people have not realized that when you buy a chick, it takes some time before it becomes a chicken.
So I don't know it seems like a bad idea to panic buy live animals and I tweeted about this and right now Twitter there. I've made like "Panic buying live animals Twitter" a little upset?
Jennifer Prokop 3:03 / #
Well, I, I want them to rethink it. Can I tell you one, I've had a, I don't really do-- I mean, we have cats and I'm down with that, but like barnyard animals are not my jam.
Sarah MacLean 3:16 / #
Why would you do that? We live in a city, it's fine.
Jennifer Prokop 3:19 / #
Yes. But at the Museum of Science and Industry, which is in my neighborhood, one of my favorite exhibits is... and I don't know how they do this, although I now have a friend who works there. And maybe I need to call her and get this information. I've always been curious. They have incubators, and every morning they put out the eggs that are going to hatch that day. And somehow they know because they're like written on the egg.. like you can see, it would be 31, or whatever. That'd be March, the March 31st eggs. And then you can just stand there and watch these chicks like work their way out of this. And it is...I could watch it all day.
Sarah MacLean 3:56 / #
Is it really cool?
Jennifer Prokop 3:57 / #
It is! My son never had the patience for it. It was right next to the train room and I always felt like it screwed me over because I could watch those all day. But I did, when this happened, I found myself really thinking like, but But what about the chicks? Like what? What are they gonna do?
Sarah MacLean 4:16 / #
I think they're probably fine. In fact, they're probably happier. They're not being stared at by by by a bunch of like weirdo children
Jennifer Prokop 4:24 / #
A bunch of Chicagoans who are like, What's going on here?
Sarah MacLean 4:27 / #
I mean, I have to say we took my daughter to the Museum of Natural History to the butterfly exhibit, which happens every year in New York City, in the February March, April months, and they get chrysalises sent from all over the world to the Museum of Natural History here, and you can watch butterflies hatch from the Crysalises, and then they basically turn this this section of the museum into like a butterfly room. These amazing, huge beautiful butterflies from all over the world are living inside this rain forest feeling-- like it's very hot and humid in there lots of big flowers and plants. And it's truly one of the coolest things I've ever seen like watching a butterfly come out of a cocoon.
Jennifer Prokop 5:21 / #
That's awesome.
Sarah MacLean 5:22 / #
Really cool.
And I had never seen it until this year, and I mean, it it's cool watching things hatch and like, it's nature's cool. I mean, I like to look at it under glass.
Jennifer Prokop 5:36 / #
To circle back to "don't panic buy" I don't want those chickens in my backyard or on my porch, I don't know,
Sarah MacLean 5:42 / #
if you live in a city and you are panic buying chicks, You should know that chickens are kind of dirty and they attract rats and you're not going to like what happens when you get rats in your yard and you live in a city because they're gonna come because they exist. There's like the whole thing. Anyway, I'm very concerned about this and I feel like, I have sort of mixed feelings because at the same time I'm really I feel like the silver lining of this whole thing is that New York City has run out of adoptable dogs and cats. And that's really great. Like, that's, like, that's awesome. And now actually probably is a pretty good time to get a puppy speaking as somebody who has a one year old dog that is annoying.
Jennifer Prokop 6:29 / #
Well, it gives you something to do every day.
Sarah MacLean 6:32 / #
I guess you have time to train your puppy which I did not have to have time to do which is why I have a terrible dog now.
Jennifer Prokop 6:40 / #
Well, can I tell you one other really funny thing and we'll put it in show notes is have you seen these videos of sports announcers instead of like, calling like matches, one guy he puts down two bowls of food for his dogs and then calls it like it's a sports match. The Same guy gets out and does something on the street. He called this "pigeon dressage," where he like is filming a group of pigeons and sort of like....
Sarah MacLean 7:08 / #
You can tell has been preparing for this for a long time. He's got two standard legs and and all of his toes. So I've asked him like most of the crackhead pigeons you see around these parts and you can see how keen he has to disassociate himself from the rest, but occasionally blending in momentarily as a feast on is it rice, seed probably vomit. What comes up must go down disgusting.
Jennifer Prokop 7:28 / #
It is. Honestly, it's great. Another American guy, if you send him videos of your cats fighting will like call the cat fight.
Sarah MacLean 7:39 / #
Like a boxing match. Yes.
Jennifer Prokop 7:43 / #
And it is really funny and I keep hoping I'll catch my cats fighting so I can have their fight called
Sarah MacLean 7:50 / #
Man. It is bringing out the very best and the very worst of the internet and also people. I really believe that. Some people are doing some really, really cool things. And some people are doing some really, really terrible things. So you know,
Jennifer Prokop 8:07 / #
Hey, speaking of a cool thing I'm doing. Yeah, I'm interviewing YA authors on TikTok.
Sarah MacLean 8:12 / #
Oh, yeah, you are.
Jennifer Prokop 8:14 / #
I'm gonna post that. We'll post that in the show notes too. And I'll be putting it on my Twitter. I've had like three or four people so far. But the whole idea is just like, if you have kids, or if you're a teacher or librarian, please share them. They're...TikTok videos can only be a minute long. And so they're really quick. It's like four little interviews with each author. And it's really fun. And I'm just like: let's get kids reading.
Sarah MacLean 8:38 / #
I totally agree. And, I mean, whatever. I wish there was more. I wish there was more for writers to be able to do right now. Like, I wish there was a way that I could help people. You know, writers are much less exciting than musicians or actors or whatever, but I'm super excited. About your TikTok project, and some of my friends have done it. And some of them haven't yet and I'm gonna yell at them. Sophie Jordan!
Jennifer Prokop 9:09 / #
People are in a pandemic. And so I can understand why.
Sarah MacLean 9:14 / #
But I saw that Zoriada Cordova did it, and you said Ali Carter's came in, so Thank you to you guys.
Jennifer Prokop 9:21 / #
Gia Krebbs, I think, and then the first one was, oh, Nisha Sharma. Yeah, she was my test case. Yeah, it was great.
Sarah MacLean 9:31 / #
Well, all of that said, we hope you're doing well world. We were really we there was such a great response to last week's episode about health care workers. And, you know, please keep thanking healthcare workers who are really doing the business, and not like the good business. You know, hard, hard business.
But let's get to it because you know, who else is doing the business?
Jennifer Prokop 10:01 / #
Man, I love this book so much.
Sarah MacLean 10:04 / #
So was it both? Was it a mutual pick? What is this book? Who picked this book?
Jennifer Prokop 10:10 / #
I think we definitely were like, let's do Susan Elizabeth Phillips. And I think we I think you were like Nobody's Baby But Mine. And I was like, Yes. Now I love Heaven, Texas. I love that wackadoodle one at the fucking circus. And it was funny, because I've been rereading today the one about the lazy golfer which I want to like put a titles Lady Be Good. I think is that one.
Sarah MacLean 10:36 / #
Lady Be Good and Heaven Texas are related. Right?
Jennifer Prokop 10:39 / #
Yes, yes. Everybody-- Bobby, Bobby Tom, which is?
Sarah MacLean 10:45 / #
Seriously, it's so amazing to me like, there are so many things about Susan Elizabeth Phillips that blow my mind. One of the ones that is probably more pedestrian than anything else, is the fact that she Can name her characters things like Bobby Tom? Or, Sugar Beth. And you're like, yeah, sexy here for it.
Jennifer Prokop 11:11 / #
So I think you you just said this one first and
Sarah MacLean 11:15 / #
Nobody's Baby But Mine is my first Susan Elizabeth Phillips book
Jennifer Prokop 11:20 / #
Really? Okay.
Sarah MacLean 11:23 / #
After which I immediately read every Susan Elizabeth Phillips book.
Jennifer Prokop 11:28 / #
So you didn't read this when it came out?
Sarah MacLean 11:31 / #
I did. I mean, I I read this a long time ago, but I don't. But I it was my first like, I was in college. Again. I thought this was earlier than it was, so I was in college. I would have been in college when it came out. 1997 is that what we decided?
Jennifer Prokop 11:49 / #
Yeah, I looked. I read this when it came out, for sure.
Sarah MacLean 11:54 / #
I don't know if I told the whole story about this, but I went to Smith. And at Smith, our house at Smith is our dorm at Smith. So the rules for for Smith are different-- like going to college at Smith is like going to college on another planet. If you haven't been to Smith it -- always my husband thinks this is like every piece of the Smith experience is just bonkers. And one of the things... so at Smith nobody lives in dorms. You live in houses. Every house has its own kitchen, with its own kitchen staff, which was amazing. And you have to live on campus all four years. If you don't, you have to get special dispensation from the college not to live on campus. And every house is divided into quarters-- so it's you know, first year, sophomores, juniors, and seniors. So there's one quarter of each class in your house and when you come in as a first year. Most people never move houses they start at House that they live in their whole time. So when you meet, when you see Smithies in the wild later in life, invariably the first question that we ask each other is "what House did you live in?" Because like that's the connection, the connective tissue. We don't have, We don't have sororities, every thing is a sorority at Smith. I lived in Lamont house -- shout out to Lamonsters everywhere! And Lamont had a case, and what happens is when you're a senior at Smith, and you're leaving, you have lived in the same, often and you have lived in the same house all four years. And so all your stuff like if you think about it, you've basically lived in an apartment for four years. And so your stuff has just stayed in the house over the summer, and you know, moved from room to room, but I lived in the same room for two years. So like you amass stuff the way you do in life, and it never goes home to your parents' house. It stays in storage until you graduate. And then when you graduate, the seniors in every house have what's called a senior banquet. And at that banquet, they "will on" all their junk to the younger women in the house, so
And one of the things that had been willed down from generation to generation in this house was a romance novel collection. And I inherited it from a senior when I was a sophomore, because I had been basically like taking books out of this romance collection for a year or two. And she willed it to me, and I kept it in my room, junior year and senior year, and I add, and it came with its own bookshelf, and I added a second bookshelf to it. And so people would just would come and they would take books out of take, you know, quote "take them out of the collection" and then when they had romance novels, they would add them back in. And so all these books have these like magnificent marginalia in them. And it was awesome. Like it was so cool and the marginalia was course like super feminist.
And I willed it on to my friend Mara, who will, who I'm told willed on to a sophomore when she graduated, and then we lost touch with it, and now the Lamont house romance novel collection has disappeared. We don't know what happened to it in the ensuing 20 years. But all of this is to say that one, I'm very sad that Lamont house collection is gone. And two, that Nobody's Baby But Mine had to have been in that collection that would have been where I would have found it. Somebody would have either put it there or I would have bought it and put it there. But all that is to say that Susan Elizabeth Phillips, like this was my first taste of her and I think it really changed the game for me. It made me realize, one, that single title contemporaries could exist. And they didn't have to be like, like Judith McNaught style contemporaries, like they could be funny; like this might be the first rom com I'd ever read.
Jennifer Prokop 16:07 / #
Yes. Now this was not my first Susan Elizabeth Phillips. I definitely... I was waiting for this one. So I just, look, this would have been, I would have still been in Texas for Teach for America. We moved to California later that summer, and I definitely was still... I didn't read as much when I did TFA because obviously I was completely overwhelmed all the time. But I had read Heaven Texas, which came out before for sure. Right, and the first Chicago Stars series book. So when this came out, I was like, this was, these were the years where really she was on my radar. I have no idea how we found out books were coming out before Amazon or like due dates I don't know if I was just in the Barnes and Noble and was like!!!! or what but this was definitely a book that I read when it came out and was super excited, and it was, Oh, God, those were good years.
Sarah MacLean 17:06 / #
I mean, but here's the thing. It's so funny. It's so funny and Susan is so funny and her writing is just top, top notch humor, right? Oh, yeah, the banter the back and forth between this couple is so cutting and hilarious like they are both entertaining each other and insulting each other all the time. So great. They're such a perfect match.
Jennifer Prokop 17:34 / #
Yes, it felt a lot like the kinds of sitcom humor we saw in the late 90s. When I read it this time, I was like, it's like Friends-- that sort of like really quick back and forth, the banter. And I think that would have definitely appealed to me for sure, right?
Sarah MacLean 17:51 / #
Mm hmm. And then on top of it, it just has that very real sense of like, you know, I've said this to you a bunch of times, I've said this about Susan all the time, but like Susan really nails real people. All her characters are so authentic, like her heroes are and still like really larger than life like our heroes, like Cal is such a fucking asshole. You both hate him and fully understand where he's coming from. Right? Yeah. And Jane to like, she does terrible, a terrible thing. She does a terrible thing.
Jennifer Prokop 18:32 / #
Yeah, I honestly was what was kind of like, this must have been 1987. And then I was like---1997! to write this plot!
Sarah MacLean 18:40 / #
She does a terrible thing. But like, then you're sort of like, but I kind of get it, and also she's the kind of character who would do this terrible thing and like, not entirely see how it was terrible. Until somebody was like you did a terrible thing. And I think... so why don't we talk a little bit about the plot? Because I think if you haven't read Nobody's Baby But Mine, it is bananas. Like it is a bananas premise, but also I think it's important for us to have a conversation about like, how when you come up with a premise like this? Talk about taking the finger!
Jennifer Prokop 19:23 / #
Shit, no kidding! Well, you know what, here's here's the thing. You and I talk a lot about taking the finger, we talk a lot, at least offline. We've been talking a lot about-- I think everyone is: how does contemporary romance move forward? Because Do you talk about what's happening now? Do you ignore it? Charlotte Stein, we're gonna mention on an upcoming interstitial, essentially tweeted out "it's okay with me if nobody ever talks about this."
Sarah MacLean 19:50 / #
I you know, Coronavirus
Jennifer Prokop 19:52 / #
Right. I speculated that maybe it will just, all the books will be kind of post-Coronavirus, like it has happened? But not living through it, but one thing I really think might happen is that we will just get the return to contemporaries like this, that exist in a "kind of" contemporary universe, right? where everything's just really supercharged but it's not real, the real tethers to to reality are about family and not necessarily about like job. Like the things that in this book are like, just bananas, you know, like, Okay, great. Sure.
Sarah MacLean 20:30 / #
Yeah. Well, I mean, I do think this is structurally really interesting, because I think one of the challenges with contemporaries is, and I see this, I see this push-pull, especially now. So now you've got the sort of, largely in the world of contemporaries where the stories are sort of "out of time," like the mafia contemporary that, like there's just bananas stuff going on all the time. Or the taboo contemporaries, where everything's kind of time slipped, versus what are largely the traditional contemporaries that feel like they are placed down in society now. And I think that what's really interesting is this push-pull that you see with a lot of authors who you can kind of tell are trying to figure out how to tell a story, and include conflict and challenge and tell a kind of compulsive, compelling story, but struggling with this idea of doing it in real life. So you we're starting, that's where we start to see the challenges around: Well, can an alpha really exist in a contemporary romance novel right now? Or are they just like, impossible to write in contemporary? Must they all be cinnamon rolls? These kinds of big questions about archetypes and how we do it, while we're writing a world that is struggling with archetypes.
Jennifer Prokop 22:00 / #
But I would also add, so you have that, you have those big overarching character questions. But I would also argue that you have a big setting question. And the way that often plays out is "do I talk about technology that exists now? Or am I dating my book By doing that?" So I can sort of mention texting, But if I mentioned apps... if I mentioned... So I think it's, it's contemporary is really being pushed and pulled on both ends, like, right, what are the kinds of stories we can tell? And then how do we place them down into the world without them being out of date, the minute they get published?
Sarah MacLean 22:39 / #
Absolutely. And I think authors are making two different choices with this, right? On the one hand, some of them are doing this kind of like, well, "we don't want to date the book" thing, which is limiting some of the stories or making some of the stories challenging, right? And some of them are saying like, fuck it, I'm just gonna write Tinder. which is gonna, Which is its own challenge. I mean, like contemporaries, I've said this 1000 times, but like, I think writing contemporaries is one of the hardest things you can do, because you are really struggling with, what, where the book is in the world. But what I want to talk about is this bananas plot. Because I think, because Susan on a number, so you and I were, just before we started recording, admitting that we usually don't read this whole book cover to cover.
Jennifer Prokop 23:26 / #
Oh, yeah.
Sarah MacLean 23:27 / #
I usually start at about 30 30% in when they get to the Mountain.
Jennifer Prokop 23:32 / #
Yes. Like skip the whole beginning.
Sarah MacLean 23:35 / #
I skipped the beginning. And that's because like, for me, when the money starts to come in. Right when they get to the mountains. And it's forced proximity, and they're stuck together. But, um, you know, which now feels like the right kind of book to be reading right now. But reading the first 30% of this book, this time was a real joy for me because Susan, What Susan is doing is she's laying out all of this plot that is truly problematic. Oh, by saying to the reader again and again, I know that's problematic, and so do you, but this is the story.
Sarah MacLean 24:15 / #
And I fucking love it. I love it.
Jennifer Prokop 24:18 / #
Yeah. I think we talk a lot about how we... I think that's exactly. I don't know what to say, except I'm just like humming because I'm like, here's the thing like, this is the story, right? Like imperfect people do imperfect things. And I and I feel like sometimes we are so worried about really problematic plots because we're worried it means authors means, I think authors worry it means "I'm saying this is okay." And I don't think we for a second think Susan Elizabeth Phillips thinks any of this is okay.
Sarah MacLean 24:55 / #
No, in fact, she says it she name checks it again and again in the text. She talks about so okay for people who haven't read the book, why don't we do the plot? You go.
Jennifer Prokop 25:07 / #
Alright, so it starts off with Cal Bonner. He is a 36 year old quarterback for the Chicago Stars. He's aging out of the NFL but refuses to admit it. He is really, he just wants to stay a young man. And one of the ways he does this is by dating young women. He's never seen on the arms of a woman who was not 20 or 22. And which not... I was that age when I read it, but I was still like... now I'm like: buddy. And so his friends, it's his his birthday. They know he's real sad and depressed about something. They decide that they're going to get him a woman. A hooker basically, right? A sex worker, excuse me.
Sarah MacLean 25:47 / #
But she uses those terms. Yeah, and also Jane doesn't like them.
Jennifer Prokop 25:52 / #
So what happens is...they don't know how to find a classy sex worker, right? Like they don't know how to do this. So They press into service a local bartender, a woman who is pretty much a caricature herself, right? She just wants to, she's like "I'm young. I'm a party girl, I want to bang football players." And if I help them find a classy woman for Cal, I can get it with this other guy. And she essentially serves up her next door neighbor, a physicist named Jane Darlington who really wants desperately to have a child. But she went to college when she was 14 and just doesn't know how to do it. And then, and her reason for agreeing is she was this 180 IQ genius her entire life and was shunned. And so she thinks if she has a baby with somebody really stupid that her, that you know, she'll essentially have a normal child. Some dummy, this dummo will like "even out"
I know when you're like, Oh my god for smart woman that's just all seems like a really bad plan, right?
Sarah MacLean 27:04 / #
Oh, it's so good though. It's so good. She's like, and she's saying it to Janie. No, no, Janie Joanie, the neighbor. And she's like, Look, I just I need somebody stupid. And Joanie is like, what? And she's like, she points to the television is like him, like, I need somebody like that. That Cal Bonner guy, basically. And Joanie's like, Oh, my God, it just fell in my lap. Like, yes, I can get you him. I can get you him.
Jennifer Prokop 27:37 / #
So here's the part that I think is really interesting. And then we'll, I don't maybe I'm jumping ahead. So there she, you know, shows up at this party and she's not really dressed.
Sarah MacLean 27:51 / #
His teammates like, deliver her to him. With a bow on! With a bow on!
Jennifer Prokop 27:58 / #
Oh, God. It's so awkward. Terrible, the whole thing.
Sarah MacLean 28:01 / #
But it doesn't feel sexy. It feels awful, awkward, and terrible. And that's it, again I, we're going to talk about this I hope later, but like that's part of why the book works so well. Susan never makes it sexy.
Jennifer Prokop 28:15 / #
Well, here's the other reason it works so well. She, here's the really unforgivable thing, she tampers with the condom and they have sex, and it really does feel, at that moment, unforgiveable, truly. She does not get pregnant. Two months later, she realizes she's not pregnant and she essentially tracks him down again for another go, and then it's consensual on his part and he just goes in without a condom and sort of can't believe it. And I will say, I think it's incredibly smart of her to play it like this, because this really unforgivable thing, had she become pregnant from the tampered condom. I think it would have, I don't think I would have kept reading.
Sarah MacLean 29:02 / #
Yeah, I think you're right.
Jennifer Prokop 29:04 / #
It's interesting .
Sarah MacLean 29:05 / #
I mean. I don't know that I would. Yeah. It's interesting because I noticed that this read, right? Yes. Like that the second time. He is consensual, bare. Right?
Jennifer Prokop 29:16 / #
Yes. Right.
Sarah MacLean 29:17 / #
But it's interesting because I don't I have never recalled it like that.
Jennifer Prokop 29:24 / #
Oh, no, me neither.
Sarah MacLean 29:25 / #
I will always recalled it as tampered condom. Stolen baby. Yes. And it never bothered me.
I'm like, this is one of those scenarios where like, you have to name the problem and then like, also just acknowledge that like, yeah, It didn't bother me, except in the sense that it did of course bother me-- she does a terrible thing. And I've always known that. Like, I've always from the first second I read this book, known that Jane made a heart horrible horrible decision and trapped Cal into this terrible situation. And no, at no point, does Susan shy away from it. And it's one of those moments It reminded me this time, it evoked for me that Joanna Lindsey Prisoner of My Desire, because you know, which we talked about with Joanna Shupe, on a podcast in season one, but that Joanna Lindsay, the heroine rapes the hero and he's so angry. And in this book Cal is so angry.
Jennifer Prokop 30:37 / #
I understand her reasoning and so therefore it didn't bother me, but I would say the fact that Cal knows that second time is when she gets pregnant, and that was his part of it, too? I feel like yeah, it's why he forgives her, right? I guess is what I..
Sarah MacLean 30:55 / #
Eventually, eventually right? But Jen, she's in cold storage.
Jennifer Prokop 31:02 / #
Oh god, yes. And she deserves to be it. Terrible. And in fact, when he confronts her, one of the things I liked about her, though, is when he confronts her, and he is furious. And we are really like, Oh my god, and she is just like, kind of stuck, and this is when she actually says the words in the title, right? "It's nobody's baby but mine" and she actually stops herself. And it's, actually, that's not true. And it's a really important moment, because we also see, she did something terrible, but she's not lying to herself about it either. And I think that's why it works.
Sarah MacLean 31:46 / #
I mean, there's so much about it. It's so deft. For all the times that I've talked about this book publicly, and on panels, and with readers about how bananas The plot is, and how light. And I always joke: oh, it's fine, it's fine. But the reality is, is that this is so deftly written every second of this, the first 30% of this book is so carefully crafted, so that as a reader you both fully understand these two characters and are fully on the side of both of them, and fully fully against both of them. Like the whole time.
Jennifer Prokop 32:25 / #
It's amazing. It's an amazing feat. It really is.
Sarah MacLean 32:28 / #
It is really magnificent. From a craft perspective, as far as building characters in a contemporary, I mean in anything, but especially in a contemporary, working with like this is kind of really, it's tightrope walking.
Jennifer Prokop 32:44 / #
Yes, and I would also like to point out, the conflict here is is so rich, it's so dynamic, it is constantly changing and moving. It is slow moving and fast moving at the same time. I mean, there's no, this is not people just sitting around talking about their feelings.
Sarah MacLean 33:06 / #
No. So okay, so what happened? So we so are now at a place where Jane is pregnant, and Cal has found out, and he comes to her. She's teaching physics class at her at her University. And he walks in and he sees her and he is like standing leaning against the wall like pure alpha sex. And the whole room is like, "What the fuck is happening?" And he looks at the class and he's like class is over.
Sarah MacLean 33:37 / #
And my panties just fell right off.
Jennifer Prokop 33:41 / #
I was like, Oh, that's hot. Yeah, it was great. And she's trying to cover, like I was almost done anyway, so we'll just meet again next time.
Sarah MacLean 33:52 / #
So anyway, It's really perfect, but also I want to say he's, he's pissed on a number of levels right? He's pissed that she's having, that one is: she stole a baby from me right? Two is: now he's got to fucking face his mortality. Lik at his age, he can't live the life he was living now because he obviously, he doesn't believe, he refers to it as strays. He doesn't believe in stray kids. And so like he's fucked because he has to marry-- then there's like a little bit of a, it's a little "romance reasons" he's like we have to get married. So they get married and then on top of all of this, then he's really pissed that she thinks he's stupid. Like that's really the worst, almost the worst infraction for Cal
Jennifer Prokop 34:49 / #
Also, that she's old, right?
Sarah MacLean 34:53 / #
Actually he thinks, he thinks she's 28
Jennifer Prokop 34:57 / #
Well, he's outraged she's that old right? She's 34! So he says, tell everyone you're 26. She's like, Okay, sure.
Sarah MacLean 35:06 / #
So anyway, he says, well we've got to get married, and then you're gonna have, we're gonna get married, we're not having a bastard. And she's like, "what the fuck" What? That's not a thing." And he's like, we're not doing it. And then he's like, then you're going to have the baby, and then we're going to get a divorce. And then I'm going to pay, I'll pay. I have my financial duties to the child, but you can't have any of my money. And she's like, Fuck off. Like, I don't want any of this. And he's like, too bad. We're doing it, or I will keep you, I have enough money. I have more money than God and I will keep you in legal fees forever and file for full custody of this baby. And I'll get it because Look who I am.
Jennifer Prokop 35:46 / #
And look what you did to me.
Sarah MacLean 35:47 / #
Yeah, yeah. Um, you're both like, Wow, what an asshole and like, Oh my god, she really did a terrible thing and I get it.
Jennifer Prokop 35:54 / #
This is like the opposite of the secret baby plot in the sense that the secret baby plot, we've talked about this, hinges upon us really believing that the hero wants the heroine more than the baby. That it's like the catalyst, right? And in this case, he's like, I don't want jack shit to do with you, but this is my gonna be my child and I'm gonna I'm not gonna hold any of this against this child, but you, I don't want it. But I want that baby. And it's really interesting because that is the antithesis of what we expect from a secret baby outcome, emotionally.
Sarah MacLean 36:36 / #
But it is, but again, it's really deftly done because he doesn't forget about her. He's thinking about her all the time. You know, him discovering that she's pregnant. There's still so much romance coded into it. I mean, it's so smart. So then they go off, so then they go to get married, a quickie marriage at City Hall, except, of course the Chicago Tribune finds out and then it's everywhere and they have to run. And so they go back to the Carolinas. North Carolina? It's North Carolina, right? Western North Carolina, I don't know if that's the Smoky Mountains or what it is, but it's right
Jennifer Prokop 37:13 / #
it's near Asheville.
Sarah MacLean 37:14 / #
Appalachian Mountains, and they are living, basically he's bought a house that was ownedby a televangelist. And is hideous inside
Jennifer Prokop 37:26 / #
like real cheese ball over the top, you know just terrible.
Sarah MacLean 37:31 / #
And he introduces her to his family and he makes her fake being in love with him.
Jennifer Prokop 37:37 / #
He also makes her fake being terrible to them, Right?remember this part where he's like you You have to be awful.
Sarah MacLean 37:45 / #
Don't make them like you.
Jennifer Prokop 37:47 / #
Yeah, they've had a tragedy in the family. His brother's wife and child died in a car accident and he's like, I don't want them to like you. I don't want them to be close to you when you leave. I want them to not feel this way. And it's it's fascinating because of course, this plays right into-- all she's ever wanted is to be part of a family,
Sarah MacLean 38:08 / #
Right because her relationship, her mother died, Her father was terrible.
Jennifer Prokop 38:12 / #
And so it's again, here's another, we're digging even deeper into this conflict where the one thing she desperately wanted was a family. This baby of her own is going to be her way of doing it. And here is Cal's shiny, amazing family and she can't be a part of it. And they're nice people and she hates it.
Sarah MacLean 38:36 / #
I think we have to talk about Grandma, too-- who gets-- Oh, yeah. Okay, this is another grandma right? Who it's like a Lord of Scoundrels-style Grandma, who smokes and drinks and sits on her porch with a shotgun. Yeah, and also gets it instantly. Like when they're alone that in the first meeting, grandma looks at Jane and says, How old? How old are you? How old Did he tell you to tell us you are?
Jennifer Prokop 39:06 / #
Yeah, you know? And she says, I've never I don't know why he's so committed. And like, Why is he so invested in being young? I mean, she like recognizes that it's all on him.
All of it. And then and then there's also I really believe that the relationship between Cal's parents is really a perfect secondary relationship in this book.
I really, I really want to talk about that too. And so basically, after the grandchild and daughter-in-law died, these fault lines are sort of uncovered in the parents marriage, and that comes into play in the second half in a really interesting way. But really, what we're seeing is this battle of the Titans between Jane and Cal. She realizes hey, maybe I'm not a pushover. And he...there's this part where he talks about how he's "a yeller," he just, that's how he communicates. He can't help it and she is the only woman who's ever really fought him back, who's essentially run run right into the tackle. And that is the part about this relationship that develops-- and is one of my, a lot of my favorite scenes are ones where they are essentially yelling at each other. And in one, when he figures out how old she really is, is the same time. The same time she figures that he graduated summa cum laude from the University of Michigan with a biology degree
Sarah MacLean 39:49 / #
And they are so pissed at each other
Jennifer Prokop 39:53 / #
They actually have like a literal knock them down, drag 'em out fight on grandma's front lawn. But you know what, like, what's amazing is for many authors, that would be like the end of it, but instead like, that's just the beginning. Right? We get a scene where she--this is the one I always remember from the books-- takes all the marshmallows out of his lucky charms.
Sarah MacLean 41:06 / #
Yeah, he's a she's a cereal killer. Right? It's so smart. It's
Jennifer Prokop 41:12 / #
She locks him out of the house and he has to break back in. I mean, and so that's it. And that's the part too, when we talk about taking the finger, right? There are ways in which she really leaned so hard into ... what we're seeing isn't, it's gonna continue to escalate. But in a way where we're both seeing them, like really come into their own as people and lovers, right? It's brilliant.
Sarah MacLean 41:43 / #
It's so, so good. It's so well done. And then on top of it, so the first two times that they have sex, so first of all, I want to say Susan Elizabeth Phillips is one of the only, possibly the only romance novelist who I think can write bad sex. This sex is bad. Yeah, she has another book called Mr.... Shit, I can't remember, Call Me Irresistible, I think is the one that I'm thinking of. But we'll confirm the title and put it in show notes. But the the premise is that the heroine... that somebody's... The hero has been left at the altar, and the heroine's best friend has run from the marriage. And he is legendary. He's known as like the most legendary lover in the world. Everyone knows that, this is one of his claims to fame. He's fantastic. And they fuck and she's like, this is fine. Like it's and it feels fine on the page.
And you're like...I don't, I don't... and I as a romance writer, this is a real struggle. Writing great sex is really hard to do, But writing mediocre or bad sex is even harder, Intentionally mediocre or bad sex is harder. And so the first two times they [Jane and Cal] have sex, they have terrible sex. Iit's just not.... it's fast, kind of first It's a little painful, like there are orgasms involved, but they're not even like great orgasms they're just orgasms. Like it's all very like clinical. And then, and Jane is dressed for both of those encounters. And then she's but then it's like a whole thing. When they get up there to the mountains, and they start to sort of unlock, she refused, he still has never seen her naked. And her nakedness is like a big piece of the puzzle. And then it's almost I don't want to spoil it for those of you who haven't read it because it's really magnificent, but the moment he finally sees her naked. It is one of the greatest laughs I have ever had while reading while reading. Truly like it's, it's a great big belly laugh of a moment and it still gets me even though now I know it's coming.
Jennifer Prokop 44:19 / #
Well and I've spent so long since I've read it I completely forgotten and I was like, oh!
Sarah MacLean 44:26 / #
but it's so, so good in moment, and it's so embarrassing and funny.
Jennifer Prokop 44:31 / #
And tender, right?
Sarah MacLean 44:32 / #
It all feels that way! And then he finally goes to her. And it's one of the most authentic, honest, romantic moments in the book. And it's because it was so horrifying and emotional and embarrassing before. It's just, it feels like Susan just has the, she can peak and valley in a way. It's just there are some writers there. there are writers in every genre who are masters and she's just a master at it.
Jennifer Prokop 45:09 / #
Yeah, it really worked for me. I would say the other thing about this book that's so pleasing, because remember at the beginning we talked about how we both love them both and understand both, but hate them both. So Jane begins the book in cold storage. She's the one who has done something terrible! But Cal is the one who ends up in cold storage at the end and I gotta tell you, I in rereading this, I was like, you know who created my love and devotion to cold storage? It's Susan Elizabeth Phillips! Here is a woman who knows how to make a hero suffer. And so it's really interesting because it's weeks! Basically um, you know, we don't want to have to get into kind of spoiler territory, but she really emotionally cannot commit right? Like they get it, they get to a good place, right? They kind of get past all of this. But what they haven't really beaten is his, he's really stuck in the present. He doesn't want to think about a future, because thinking about a future means thinking about leaving football, and thinking about what's next. And he hasn't ever figured that out and so he can't, he just can't let himself do that. And she has been sort of building these castles in the air about they're... like "this is all going to work out and we're going to be so happy." And what happens is she fucking takes off in her shitty like Ford Escort and goes to live with the you know, the grandmother. And then Cal's mom has also left her husband and these women are living in a Smith College dorm, essentially.
Sarah MacLean 46:55 / #
Oh my god, I'm gonna spoil that scene at night. Yeah, when he comes in to her. So she goes across over onto the other side of the mountain. She leaves him to the other side of the mountain. And the the women take her in. And then there's that magnificent scene where she's asleep. And there's a storm outside and she wakes up and he's there. And it's very Rune and Josie. And he's there. And he's, like, "Come back with me." And she's like, no. And they have a kind of quick conversation. And then his mom is knocking on the door. She's like, "do you have a man in there?" And Jane says yes. And he's like, "Why the fuck did you tell her?" And then the mom is like, "do you want him in there?" And Jane says no. And it's so heartbreaking because of course she does want him in there! but like he's been such an asshole and he's such a dummy and why, like and why why is he such a dummy? And then the mom is like, can you come stay with me? You sleep in my bed with me. And she goes
Jennifer Prokop 48:01 / #
It's really. it's, you know what it's really it is magnificent here's, the other thing, So now is maybe a good time to talk about this B plot love story. Which it's, I love this book but it's ironic, because one of the reasons I haven't read a new Susan Elizabeth Phillips book in a long time. And one of the reasons I stopped is because the secondary romances essentially started becoming like equal, the A and the B romances essentially became indistinguishable in later books. And I didn't really enjoy it. I don't know, maybe I'm just a dummy and I just want I really want the tight focus on the main romantic subplot, and I found myself frustrated by other ones and so it was really interesting because it's around 50% when Cal's parents sort of bubble up as being... okay, we're gonna get their story, and I had forgotten. And I remember as I was reading, I thought Thank God it's not gonna like take over, This was yesterday as I was rereading, thank god this is not going to take over. It's not what I want. But I think there's a couple really brilliant things that happen with this. One is it gives the reader something to focus on while Cal is in cold storage. Because if you really want it to feel like someone is suffering for...you can't just say "two weeks later" right? And it's two paragraphs later. So it gives the readers, it gives our author and the reader something to do while the time is passing. But also it's this really it's like, if Jane and Cal don't get this straightened out now, this is what's gonna happen later. Right? So it's like forewarning A potential bad outcome. And I think it's and that's the part I also thought was really brilliant, along with one of the most heart wrenching stories of a man doing someone dirty I have ever read and I cannot believe I repressed it, I read it again. And it was just as painful,
Sarah MacLean 50:21 / #
It's devastating. the story behind Cal's parents. So Cal's father is a doctor who was in medical school and his mother sold cookies in a hospital, and he'd never he basically like, he denied that he knew and was in love with her
Jennifer Prokop 50:38 / #
that they were married! That was his baby!
Sarah MacLean 50:53 / #
It's so heart wrenching, and she stays with him. And so for me also, there's this piece of like, it feels very real because it feels generationally, like we've talked before about women of a generation, even even just one generation above us like feeling trapped. And not being able to get out of a relationship. That is, that is so upsetting. It's also like there's something in here about education and class, and and all the other... this book. Really for a book that is so hilariously funny, And so romantic, It's also, it's a lot about age. It's a lot about class. It's a lot about like how you prejudge people, it's about education. It's about location. Like, there are so many layers of the way that we judge each other, including people we love.
Jennifer Prokop 51:57 / #
I think the other thing I found myself thinking about about is I, I think this is really a book about the cavalier way in which we talk about women trapping men with pregnancy. But not ever really digging into the many ways that women in unhappy marriages are trapped by marriage. Does that make sense? So it's the whole story about Cal's parents is she trapped him, right? She was 15 when she got pregnant, 16 when she had Cal. He's graduating from high school and she had to stand under the bleachers to go see it because she's basically been kicked out of high school for the thing that they did together. And so the whole story is she trapped him. She was trash and she trapped him and then she had to drop her mountain girl persona to become the doctor's wife, but we see that she was trapped, too. There's a real I don't know, uncovering, I think, of like, what, what is it? What does it mean when we talk about trapping someone into marriage? Like everybody loses. And I I don't know, it was really poignant.
Sarah MacLean 53:11 / #
And it's heartbreaking, because it doesn't come up. They never talk about it. And I know, you know, my mom doesn't listen to the podcast, so I can say this. But like, I feel like my parents didn't talk about so many of the things that were deeply embedded in their marriage. And maybe there are things I don't talk to my husband about that are deeply embedded in our marriage. I don't know, like, maybe this is just marriage, but it feels like that relationship could easily have just never been healed. Like it could have just lived its whole life with the story of Cookie Girl and standing under the bleachers. And you have this kind of moment of deep relief when they finally acknowledge that skeleton and like can move forward in some way
Jennifer Prokop 54:06 / #
Well and that's the part about the cold storage, I think for both Cal...both for for Lynn, Cal's mom, and for for Jane is the first time a man comes back to apologize how how quickly they are I don't know, socialized to just say, okay thank you. Just apologizing once is going to be enough for me and and the way Lynn has to essentially force herself to say, it's still not good enough, I've never in our 37 years of marriage said to you "I deserve more" but I do. and and Jane as well. Like I deserve more, but I deserve more. And it's that's the part about this even though I've made a mistake, even though I did shitty, terrible things, I'm not going to pay for them forever. I still deserve more. It's really powerful. It really is.
Sarah MacLean 55:12 / #
I mean it's really it's fabulous and then it all like she just never gives up, Susan never lets she never lets up, she every like you get to, I don't know like 90% of the way through this book right? There's the fight finally his dad comes in and is like, young lady, you have to talk to my son. And the new quarterback from the Chicago stars is there for some weird romance, and Grandma has her shot gun and like everyone's there like it's like a nonsense play. It's like a farce. Yeah. And you're watching all these people. And you think to yourself Cal's gonna profess His love, and it's finally going to be over and instead The conversation like starts and he's like "everything about you fucking irritates me," and Every woman is like what the hell is wrong?
Jennifer Prokop 56:14 / #
Even the other quarterback,
Sarah MacLean 56:16 / #
He's great the other quarterback, who is younger, but also it's that perfect example of like how it's it reminded me of Kresley, right like when we did A Hunger Like No Other, and we were like she's telling the story of the way romance is shifting, too. Susan...Cal is an old school alpha hero who like is feeling feelings for the first time and doesn't like it. What's his name Tyler? What's his name?
Jennifer Prokop 56:43 / #
Kevin. Kevin Tucker.
Sarah MacLean 56:46 / #
Yeah, Kevin is like a new evolved, cool hero who's deeply in touch with his emotions. And it's like, why don't you understand that ladies like to be treated well? And it's awesome to see the two of them together especially because like it's so overt, the metaphor is so overt like, yes, Cal's a dinosaur, he's a dinosaur in the football field. He's a dinosaur as a man. Like, he has to evolve or he's gonna die.
Jennifer Prokop 57:20 / #
Yeah. And and Jane is, I think one of my favorite moments in here, there are many that are good, is the part where she she locks him out of the house. And she, I mean, we're talking like she dismantles the electronic gate. She locks all of the doors to the house, she fiddles with the alarm. And the way that he gets in is he essentially has to scale the house and go over the roof and through like the doors on like a bedroom on the second floor, and he's actually infuriated that she didn't lock them. Didn't she think he was good enough to get up there and open those doors right?
Sarah MacLean 58:07 / #
Oh my god. It's so perfect though, right? Like I would never think t write that. But it's so perfect
Jennifer Prokop 58:13 / #
It is so perfect.
Sarah MacLean 58:15 / #
It has such a male shitty thing in the moment.
Jennifer Prokop 58:21 / #
Yes, I mean, let's look at the many ways in which she tried to keep me from this house but she didn't do this one thing so she didn't really mean it. And, and that's it like their entire... but the thing that she realizes, and then he's yelling at her. And she stops and thinks, I wonder what it was like when he yelled at he's like these 21 year old women. And she realizes. She stops and she's like, he never would have done that. And that's when she realizes that he's in love with her too. He just won't admit it and doesn't know it. And that's the part where she sees him so much more clearly. He goes down to Texas to see Bobby Tom and is convinced the Bobby Tom is just putting on the the fiction of being happy because no one could ever be happy if they weren't playing football and when he comes back and he like says that her. She's basically like, What the fuck is wrong with this dummy? He thinks football is more important than family? And even Cal's mom is like "he grew up in a happy family. I don't know where this comes from." It is amazing. It is so good.
Sarah MacLean 59:29 / #
It's so perfect. And then the grand gesture at the end. Like where he's like I really wanted to win a football game because that's what football players do. And she's like, what the fuck? And then he's like, but I get it, I get that's not what you need. And everything about it, It's just so good. And it's so cinematic too, we haven't talked about when at the first part, where you know you sort of feel like you're watching a play and some of them in some of the the scenes but it really does feel like I want to see this, I want to see this movie. if somebody said to me "what romance novels should absolutely be a movie" like it feels like this one. It's so fun. It's perfect
Jennifer Prokop 1:00:23 / #
Yeah, I think this is the thing where to me when we talk about like ROM-coms, right which is like a marketing term now but actually meant back then. And in the 90s was prime time for rom-com movies, too. But this manages to hit all of the romance novel beats without humiliating the heroine, which I think is where a lot of ROM coms now go wrong. And really keep a tight focus on the romance while introducing lots of really charming sub, sort of second string characters. There's a lot of like physical comedy and humor, there's a lot of... it is in fact cinematic, that's a great word for it I think it's inventive in a way. it really is putting something on page that was
Sarah MacLean 1:01:19 / #
Jennifer. on past AMA's, you have said "I don't think ROM coms exist."
Jennifer Prokop 1:01:25 / #
Yeah well I mean now. They existed then. I don't I mean... this, Jenny Crusie,
Sarah MacLean 1:01:33 / #
If you are out there, in the ether, listening to us and you are thinking everybody says publishing wants ROM coms What do they really mean? Read the book. Read this book because it beat for beat. It's just exactly what you want in a rom com.
Jennifer Prokop 1:01:51 / #
Yes. Yeah, absolutely.
Sarah MacLean 1:01:54 / #
And heavy on the ROM. we talk all the time about how romance is hard as a genre. One of the one of the things that enrages me about the level of disdain that the world has for romance as a genre is the complete disregard for the fact that when you're writing romantic suspense, it has to exist as both suspense and romance. You have to have a mystery and romance when you're writing historical romance, it has to be historically, it has to be a historical novel and also romance. This is a perfectly balanced,
Jennifer Prokop 1:02:34 / #
this book is also 23 years old. So right, and it is it is spectacular.
Sarah MacLean 1:02:43 / #
It is the Lord of scoundrels of rom com,
Jennifer Prokop 1:02:47 / #
This and Jenny Crusie,
Sarah MacLean 1:02:48 / #
I know you really like Bet Me. And for me, I haven't read Bet Me in 25 years. So for me this is like the gold standard, but we're going to do Bet Me, too. Maybe we should do Bet Me next
Jennifer Prokop 1:03:02 / #
Yeah, well this and Welcome to Temptation and Bet Me are... but I mean those were 2000? Welcome to Temptation was 2000, Bet Me was probably 2001, 2002. yes so this was all a really tight and you know maybe and after 9/11 it was just harder to do. I don't know it's really interesting to consider.
Sarah MacLean 1:03:26 / #
Well there was that great moment on Saturday Night Live the the week that they came back after 9/11 and Lorne Michaels stood there with Rudy Giuliani, who was mayor at the time and Lorne Michael said, "Can we be funny?" and Rudy Giuliani said, "why start now?" And so and it's like that. I don't know, I don't know if rom com did exist short of, Maybe it was just to Susan and Jenny. I mean, it was also Laura Zigman. And then of course, there was Helen Fielding like, right in that the sort of wake of 9/11 was the rise of the Chic Lit.
Jennifer Prokop 1:04:08 / #
It's interesting that you talk about the "can we be funny again" thing. Do you remember what was in The Onion when they came back online after 9/11? It was a very a set of very similar types of things. And there's one that is like basically really bitterly funny, which was God holding a press conference, telling people to stop killing people using his name. And I I remember thinking nothing will ever be funny again.
Sarah MacLean 1:04:37 / #
And it will be.
Jennifer Prokop 1:04:39 / #
I know.
Sarah MacLean 1:04:40 / #
I mean, I think it's important. Part of me feels really good about doing this this week. I like the fact that it's a forced proximity story. Like there's some very overt reasons why I think this is a nice choice for this week. But also I'm really glad we did it because it's really funny. I laughed out loud reading this book today.
Jennifer Prokop 1:04:59 / #
Yes.
Sarah MacLean 1:05:00 / #
Yeah, today is not a day that is easy to laugh out loud on. So I'm, you know, Susan, I've said this to your actual face. And I texted you this today. And I don't know if you will ever listen to this podcast, but if you do just know that like this book. I mean, it is. It's one of my very, very favorites and I'm so grateful for it.
Jennifer Prokop 1:05:26 / #
Me too. It was really wonderful to read it again.
Sarah MacLean 1:05:32 / #
All right.
So well, we talked about doing that me again, but we'd also talked about the Victoria Dohl.
Jennifer Prokop 1:05:40 / #
Yeah, I don't remember the name. You were like Cunnilingus Gabe, I was like, I don't think that's the title.
Sarah MacLean 1:05:49 / #
Hang on. Eric's gonna be like what now? It feels like when you Google "Victoria Dahl cunnilingus" it should just populate but... Ah, it's Taking the Heat. And it's number three in her girls night out series but you don't have to read the others. It is a proper standalone and Victoria we are going to read, and we are going to talk about sex with Victoria as well. Because and it's gonna be a different kind of conversation than we did about Tessa.... not Tessa Dare....Tessa.
Jennifer Prokop 1:06:29 / #
Tessa. Bailey. the queen of dirty talk.
Sarah MacLean 1:06:35 / #
Yeah, Tessa Bailey, and, and the, but it's about a dude librarian who really likes to eat ladies out. I shouldn't say, that that's gross. That's a gross way of saying it It's about a dude librarian who really likes...
Jennifer Prokop 1:07:02 / #
His nickname is Cunnilingus Gabe, Sarah, I think we all get what he likes to do.
Sarah MacLean 1:07:11 / #
And it's pretty great. But also there's a there's a really beautiful like, the heroine writes an advice column in a small town. He's a librarian. And there's a really great bullying subplot like a school bully subplotthat I really think is beautiful, and I really like this book. So we're gonna do that next. Awesome. Otherwise, what else should you know about us? Oh, call us call us! We are very excited every time you leave us voicemail messages is really saying anything but especially when you tell us about books that blooded you As a romance reader.You can get pins and stickers from Best Friend Kelly. If you just go to our website, you can click on merge and go direct to her store there. Our website is fadedmates dot net, but just be aware of things shifting with post offices. So Jordan Dene, which is where all of my T shirts exist. She is closing the shop until the quarantines slash isolations slash whatever we're calling it today is over because she wants to keep mail workers as safe as possible.
Jennifer Prokop 1:08:28 / #
I would just say everybody, stay safe. stay at home if you can.
Sarah MacLean 1:08:33 / #
Wash your hands.
Jennifer Prokop 1:08:34 / #
Yeah, and be if you are out in the world, be as kind and thoughtful as possible to people who are working on our behalf. And if you see someone being shitty to them, step up and tell that person to buzz off.
Sarah MacLean 1:08:48 / #
Usin those exact words, and also tip your delivery people.
Jennifer Prokop 1:08:55 / #
Oh, like an insane amount. Yes. Whatever you can do.
Sarah MacLean 1:08:58 / #
They're really taken brunt of it. So yeah, love you guys stay safe Keep us posted on the books that you're reading tell us if you've read anything that's as funny as Nobody's Baby But Mine is, we're looking! And have a great week.
Unknown Speaker 1:09:13 / #
Hi Fated Mates fam. My name is Rosalie and the book that blooded me was Susan Elizabeth Phillips' Natural Born Charmer, Book number seven in her Chicago star series and it came out in 2008. Sarah, I think you'll laugh at this. I was at the JFK Airport, going home to Chicago and had just finished a book when they announced a three hour delay. To my dismay, I had nothing to read. So I was roaming and perusing and I saw a mass market paperback with a bright red cover and had this woman in a flowing dark dress and just knew from the cover that this book would get me out of my travel blues. I think it was Kismet because although I didn't start in Chicago ended up in Chicago and I just didn't know how I had missed this entire genre for 32 years of my life. It has really given me an opportunity to see these great authors and understand women in ways I hadn't before. So I really appreciate all the authors who put their hard work out there and to you and Jen Sarah, for talking about it every week. So thank you so much. Thank you so much. Bye