Bonus Episode, interstitial, S02 - Interstitials, romance recommendations, guest host, New Year's Eve Jennifer Prokop Bonus Episode, interstitial, S02 - Interstitials, romance recommendations, guest host, New Year's Eve Jennifer Prokop

S02.17: Pegging Romance

It’s the start of a new year, Romance is on fire, and we all need a palate cleanser, so we’re doing it right, with the bonus episode that was an item in the Romance for RAICES auction, hosted by Love in Panels. The bidding didn’t go quite the way we expected but we are honestly thrilled, because we were a tiny part of raising $23,000 for refugee services and immigrant families on the border. Please donate early and often to RAICES and The Young Center for Immigrant Children’s Rights.

Please welcome friend of the pod, Sierra Simone, for our very special Pegging Episode (And thank you to the Pegging Collective for your generous donation, and for being wonderful listeners)!

Auspicious beginning, right? Don’t miss a single moment of our 2020 episodes — subscribe on your favorite podcasting platform and like/review the podcast if you’re so inclined!

We’re back next week (WE PROMISE!) with Born in Ice, by none other than the queen herself, Nora Roberts. Read Born in Ice at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo or your local indie.

Show Notes

SimoneScaleTM.jpg

TRANSCRIPT

Jen Prokop 0:39
I don't even have words right now but we do have a very special guest

she's been cursed by podcast fairies though.

Sarah MacLean 0:50
It may be like it may be at some sort of flu podcast

flu podcast. Oh, there you go

Sierra Simone 0:56
just as pegging itself takes multiple tries to get Alright, so to the pagan podcast

Jen Prokop 1:05
Well, there you go. I guess y'all know what we're talking about tonight.

Sarah MacLean 1:09
Everyone Sierra Simone is with us today. Hello

Sierra Simone 1:12
everyone you know

Jen Prokop 1:14
Sarah and I are not messing around and sometimes you just need to bring in an expert so on this faded mates Welcome everyone we have a very a very special episode. It's kind of like a Lifetime movie. If you remember those when you were a kid only like way more instructive?

Because

Unknown Speaker 1:32
we got help and support I said, see nothing like those Lifetime movie.

Sarah MacLean 1:40
Like, my sister is my mom.

Jen Prokop 1:50
But okay, sure.

Sarah MacLean 1:54
Okay, so we should talk about so yes. Welcome, everybody to faded mate. I'm Sarah McClain.

Jen Prokop 2:01
I'm generally romance

are we going in

Sarah MacLean 2:07
you and then if we have to introduce our

Unknown Speaker 2:08
guest, I mean, right.

Sarah MacLean 2:11
And then we are here today with Sarah Simone who everyone remembers from our McRib episode. Sarah, have you only been here for one episode?

Jen Prokop 2:19
No.

Sierra Simone 2:21
I think it's just been one. Yeah, I mean, I feel like I'm present.

Jen Prokop 2:26
We have to do everyone several.

We've recorded with her four times, but she's gonna only be on twice

Sierra Simone 2:36
but you only get to hear okay, but

Sarah MacLean 2:38
here's the deal. So this is well and we also we have a third one even we have a third lined up already. We already know you're coming back. Yo, it's like, Saturday Night Live where people get t shirts. People get gifts when they hit milestones like maybe when you hit five will send you like a

amazing

Sierra Simone 2:58
amazing

Sarah MacLean 3:06
Kansas.

Sierra Simone 3:08
It really is. I mean, I'm the mayor of Minaj. County, Kansas.

I don't know, but I'm the mayor of it.

Well, thank you for having me on. I'm really excited to be here. We're so happy to have you and

Sarah MacLean 3:25
so let's give a little background on where how this started. We so Suzanne over at Levin panels, who is fabulous, and was looking around in 2019 at the world and going like what the fuck is happening is that none of us could could really stop saying that, and I was paralyzed, but, but Suzanne decided that she was gonna put her good work into mobilizing romance to into a auction to benefit nonprofit organizations on the southern border of the United States working with displaced families, children who have been displaced or taken from their parents and other people who

Jen Prokop 4:15
are really going through it

Sarah MacLean 4:17
down there. And romance really delivered in a huge way. The auction was massive, I think bigger than Suzanne could have imagined. Oh, I think it raised like 15 or 20 grand It was a lot. Yeah, you guys did awesome. So thank you to everyone who donated time money. product to that. We Jen and I were really really excited to be able to donate an episode of fate of mates, by which we meant like you pick the topic.

Like, we'd like you to talk about the bridgeton series

episode on princesses.

Jen Prokop 5:04
Women with really nice shoes.

Sarah MacLean 5:09
You Joker's a group of you got together and you raise a shit ton of money. Thank you so, so much. And you called yourself the pegging cabal. We have your name, we're going to name you at the end of this episode with pride. And you won the auction and you asked us to do an episode on pegging. And after sort of a couple of non starter ideas like what if we do a whole episode of characters named Margaret or

Sierra Simone 5:42
totally forgot we're

Jen Prokop 5:43
gonna do that. I was like, we're gonna rickroll them.

Sarah MacLean 5:49
Pirate romance.

We decided to really get serious get down to business, so to speak, and we called in the dirtiest person we know

Sierra Simone 6:00
The owner, thank you operator

Sarah MacLean 6:01
and developer of the Simone scale tm.

Simone, like pegging on the small scale is like, slightly to the north of Darcy looking at.

Jen Prokop 6:17
Like, making a cup of tea with two tea bags. That's about how sexy it is in your world. Like, we're gonna need help.

Sierra Simone 6:25
I mean, also actual teabagging is on, but like,

Jen Prokop 6:31
but yes, like, we're

Sierra Simone 6:32
talking like real, real mild stuff for pegging. So I was like, yeah, hell yes, I'm here. Yeah. What

Unknown Speaker 6:38
do you mean you need an expert? What's wrong,

Jen Prokop 6:42
guys? Important point, Sarah tweet. I think I've done more research episodes I ever had for like, my advice.

Sarah MacLean 6:52
was like, I'm getting it together.

Sierra Simone 6:55
That wasn't real good week. Like I feel like our text thread that week was probably like top 10 texts. threads of all time. Okay.

Yeah, we found that playlist, the music playlist, which we will

Sarah MacLean 7:09
course link in show notes and also the peaches song is is is going to play over the course of this episode because

Jen Prokop 7:33
Is this the woman the woman on Twitter who has the pegging? Like new jingle you guys we found some amazing things we're gonna

Sarah MacLean 7:42
get to her she's amazing cuz she's given us permission to play the whole thing. But no, there's there's a peachy song that is like, frankly like meaning.

It also includes meatloaf I would do anything for love.

Jen Prokop 8:02
But I won't do that.

Sarah MacLean 8:15
There is like a three part dissertation on on the internet about Ariana Grande a having

Sierra Simone 8:23
to pegging Dangerous Woman don't know how

Unknown Speaker 8:29
to spend the money.

Unknown Speaker 8:33
completely focused.

Sierra Simone 8:36
It is the classic, dangerous woman.

Jen Prokop 8:41
I think my favorite song on that playlist though, is

Sarah MacLean 8:53
that Eric pops in and production. There's gonna be a lot of great music in this episode. We'll put it all in show notes.

Jen Prokop 9:00
I think also a lot of show notes are going to be like Jen was unable to Google that good luck.

Sarah MacLean 9:07
Jen does show notes at work.

Jen Prokop 9:10
We suggest the search terms x y&z been able to execute that search and keep my job.

See the gray zone is now radioactive.

Sierra Simone 9:27
Well the great thing about Sarah Nice job is that like, if we didn't do this research on our computers, really we'd be letting our job down. So solemn duty Yeah, to investigate every corner of pegging.

Yeah, that's what she said.

Sarah MacLean 9:45
There's no corners in pegging.

Sierra Simone 9:49
I've learned that. That's rule number

one. Corner.

Jen Prokop 9:56
No corners. It's real soft. Round. Yes.

Unknown Speaker 10:05
All right.

Jen Prokop 10:06
Okay, so real serious now, Sarah, I think we'd like Sierra to maybe define pegging for us for

Sarah MacLean 10:13
those of you who don't know, welcome to fate of me. Welcome to this episode.

Okay, good welcome. If this is your first faded mates episode, welcome to the deep end of the pool.

If you combine a series someones newsletter, Twitter account, Facebook, or

Unknown Speaker 10:45
Welcome

Jen Prokop 10:48
Welcome to the kiddie pool.

Unknown Speaker 10:52
perspective, time is a flat circle

Unknown Speaker 10:59
All right.

Jen Prokop 11:00
Sierra, tell us about what pegging is, that's your job. That's why we brought you do all the heavy lifting.

Sierra Simone 11:07
So, um, so this is something that when we were kind of formulating how we were going to talk about pegging in the episode, you know, we did do a little bit of discussion. So sort of the traditional definition of pegging has been penetrative sex, where the penetrating object is actually a toy like a strap on, and the toy is usually worn. And the receptive partner is a man and the active partner, the penetrating partner is a woman and that is, I would say the majority of the pegging you come across in romance, which is a woman wearing a strap on penetrating a man easily. But while we were talking, I think, Jen Was it you who talked to Ilia winters a little bit, I bow Yeah, kind of making sure that there is some inclusivity The definition and that, you know, acknowledging that there can be some biological essentialism and the way that we sort of talk about what pegging is and isn't, and making sure that you know, it's kind of for everyone.

Jen Prokop 12:14
I just want to say like, huge shout out to Elio, who like, was really gracious about taking our questions because we want it I mean, obviously, we're having a lot of fun with this episode, but we don't want to be offensive either. And, you know, it's like kind of this always this question now about gender essential ism. You know, obviously, there are women who do have penises, right? If she's using her own anatomy, is it? Is it pegging? Or is it just like fucking and really, one of the things that Ellie and I ended up talking about was the idea that like people, if, if, if people kind of self identify that the activity they're doing is pegging like than it is, and it's not really like are you know, people get to decide how to like, a sheet put it like deviate from sis normativity in whatever way they Want to. So although I think in the episode work in a really kind of stick to that standard definition, we do want to just sort of, like throw out there that like that. That's not the only way that like pegging works. It's sort of maybe a most common one at this point. But, you know, we fully anticipate that, like, these things are going to just like everything. You know, there's not like really, highly defined borders around it. Like this is an activity that like all people can enjoy in whatever way they want to about that. Yeah,

Sierra Simone 13:28
yes. I love that. And I think that I think that pegging and I hope this is the case that in romance pegging is going to start to expand as it's sort of drifted into the popular consciousness, the way we see it represented and romance will start to expand and kind of breathe into the corners of the room. You know, I kind of think of that, like, what's that science law about how gas will always fill the volume of the container and nice and I feel like I do. like this and romance and inclusivity they do do that. Like once people start bringing awareness of it into the conversation, then you do start to see these stories and narratives pop up that really expand and play with, like, what are the limits of what this can do. And I hope that's the case for pegging. Yeah.

Sarah MacLean 14:18
I think this is really an interesting question, because I think, I think that when we talk about pegging, we're talking about really flipping the script on what sex has traditionally like, is traditionally in like old school, you know, sis hat. romances were like, the penetrative experience is the masculine experience. And I think that that that the idea of normalization of pegging and this these kind of questions about like, how do we rewrite the script on sex so that there is more parity and experiences kind of more We're balanced across or maybe not even balanced, but it's about pleasure. It's about your own desire and your consent within a relationship. And to Missy to write the idea that you're sharing something that maybe is like a stretch for you or like a writer or something you're kind of interested or curious about together and that is also a way that people's relationships develop. And yes is a gift from erotica and from erotic romance. I mean, this has I think, part of the reason why pegging has become more a part of romance and truthfully, when we got this sort of call for this being the fate of mates episode that people wanted, we part of the reason why we felt like we needed an expert to come in and talk was because we wanted somebody who was really deeply connected to erotic romance, who writes erotic romance who understands

the world

of writing for erotic romance readers and who, unlike and somebody who is in in that world right now because it isn't it's a new This is a whole new world opening up from erotic romance I think so much about that really the conversation that we've had with adrionna we had with audrianna Herrera when she was here about like, romance is constantly now it feels like romance of 2019 2020 is pushing the walls down and sort of again like gas right expanding? Yes, you further space.

Sierra Simone 16:34
Well, and I think that that's such an astute observation that because it to me, and I'm not nearly the romance historian that you guys are but when I encountered a lot of sort of older pegging, like I would say around like 2004 to 2007 ish in like Sam handbooks and a Laura's cave books.

Jen Prokop 16:52
Um, it definitely happened

Sierra Simone 16:55
within a very specific BDSM sphere. There was a Definitely like a very certain paradigm that could allow for a man to be penetrated by a woman. And now I think that's completely not the case. And one of the reasons why is that I think it's such a valuable tool or method to explore what power and gender mean inside of a relationship, that it actually connects to a lot of conversations that we're having in 2019. And, you know, in the last few years, and so this idea that like it can move out from just being purely like a symbol of, I mean, almost dominance, like femme Dom culture, to being something that even like limitedly kinky people or not kinky people at all can experience and it can be used on the page as a as a seen as a chessboard for navigating some other bigger, deeper theme.

Jen Prokop 17:56
One of the things I think might be really interesting before we'd like to Talk about specific, like examples is one of the things I like. And I know Sarah, you and I've been like noodling around when we like sort of tried this. The first time is, when people talk about erotic romance, they often talk about, like how sex has to be a really integral part of the plot. Hmm. And one of the things and I and I think that's true, right, like they're the relationship gets, like sort of shown through like, the sexual evolution of their emotional relationship is like really shown through the evolution of their sexual relationship. Right, right. I think one of the other things that I'm I'm really moving towards is the idea that I'm really good. erotic romance, though is also about character development. Yeah. And so you get people really exploring who they are, as they explore, like, their sexual identity, whether and that happens, like with a partner or partners, right, yeah. And I think that that's something that It's really funny because for like a long time, I've kind of really struggled with that first definition of erotic romance like it felt right, but somehow not entirely right. And when I think about it instead is someone really saying, like, I want to explore something new with you. I am learning something new about myself through what we're doing together. I find that to be a really like, electrifying and exciting way of thinking about erotic romance. And I think it's also when I think about the best erotic romance, it's the ones that do that. And I think that that's why like pegging could then be like a really interesting kind of model for this because often it is like, it's not where a book starts, right. It's something that's going to happen later. And, and I think so I just think that's like a really interesting way of thinking about it that like, I don't know, it really makes sense to me. It's like something I feel like I really enjoy and I think Maybe I'll look it up Jennifer Porter on Twitter was maybe one of the people who first like got me thinking in this way and I will definitely try and dig up that thread because I, I really, it was like one of those things where I read it and I was like that I love that idea a lot.

Sarah MacLean 20:15
Well, and I think that that's such an important piece of the puzzle for erotic romance. Like I my biggest one of my biggest frustrations with the way we talk about romance novels in the world is that for so long, I mean, when I started writing Romance A decade ago, which feels like an eternity ago, and like I started reading romance before ebooks existed, like that's, that's kind of the frame of reference that we're talking about here. Right. So like, the most erotic romance at the time that was readily available that you could go to your local library and pick up was someone like Laura Lee right, who was writing a very specific kind of again, like sis heteronormative erotic romance that was not including these kind of these kind of kinks that now no longer feel as kinky, right? But so an interestingly and her and her heroes were completely impenetrable. That's what she said in both

Sierra Simone 21:25
episode we one done

Sarah MacLean 21:30
right, I'm never gonna be able to call a hero.

Jen Prokop 21:36
They all need to just understand that they're all penetrable. It's a better world that way.

Sarah MacLean 21:43
But my point being that

for a long time written my, when I started, there was this sort of sense that we didn't talk about the sex parts of the book like we as writers, as an industry. Kind of glossed over that for I think lots of reasons. But certainly the one of the damage, one of the most damaging parts of that silence about the sex parts was that we never really nailed down a solid definition of what it means to be erotic romance like Yeah, and I think we talked about this a little bit during the mcgroove episode where like, I there's still a question I still see people right now there's the Rita not the Rita entry. window is open, and people are like, well, if I had five sex scenes in my book, is that a contemporary is that erotic and it's like, well,

Jen Prokop 22:43
that's not the that shouldn't be. The crazy number is not that the number is not what's defined,

Sarah MacLean 22:50
but I think we're not look, romance is having a lot of very important conversations right now that need to be had but this is one that also needs to be had in service of This part of the genre, right? Because we should be able to talk about what the value of the erotic romance is. And I think you're right that it is about character. Evolution is through action in this particular way.

Sierra Simone 23:15
I love that idea of evolution through action. Like I think that's such an incredible, just sort of pithy tagline for it. And I want to acknowledge that, you know, we're the sphere in which we're talking about erotic romance is largely geared towards and representing Allah sexuals. And so just with that caveat, I do think that for Allah sexual people, meaning people who are just non Ace, or you know, naturally sexual beings, that sexual identity actually ties into some really super elemental parts of our identities that I think are hard to access and other ways. So like it can be profoundly vulnerable making it can be profoundly therapeutic. Or profoundly traumatizing or, you know, breaking you open to have powerful transformative sex. And so if you have an erotic romance where the It doesn't matter how many sex scenes you have, necessarily, but the sex scene itself is doing work by using sex as a as a gateway into this identity arc that the characters undergoing, I think that that is what makes a compelling erotic romance. And then I think the, a lot of that journey usually is coupled with sort of, I was raised or just sort of the overall culture created these ideas about sexuality inside of me. And so like some of that identity is usually kind of coming into your own and letting go of the harmful paradigms that society has given you. And I think with pegging in particular, that can have a lot to do with like, what is masculinity? Like? What is the matter masculine role in sex. And and I think we can acknowledge probably that there are there are some strains of homophobia right within talking about pegging and how men might feel about it.

Jen Prokop 25:15
If I could just like shout out like literally today, Rome parish dropped a little book in main bite, called a good old affection Hanukkah pegging. And it is a if you read small change, it's ginger and Christopher so these are like characters you kind of already know. But one of the things I really liked about this little and I mean, it's pretty short. I read it in a couple minutes is it starts off with Christopher talking to his friend, because he is like curious it his friend is gay and he's curious about like, Ginger has like wants to try pegging. Christopher is like I think I want to try it but he talks to his friend hearse Question is sort of like, does it hurt? Like, does it hurt to have something up your ass? Right? And the friend is kinda like Jude is like blinking, right? And, and he's like, and they and he's really interesting because he's, he'd like, go, it's I thought it was really great. Like, he's like, I need to go to a friend first who's experienced this to like, talk about, like, my questions and my fears. And you know, it's like, really funny because, like, one of the things he says is like, like, What's the situation? And I was like, You know what, I think that makes it I loved it. Like, I felt like, oh, like, that really is getting out. Like what I think a lot of people would have like, questions about the mechanics of it, and I just thought it anyway, it's like a terrific story. And it's really short and we'll link to it in show notes. But you know, that that whole idea of like him, you know, and and you can tell Jude his friend is like, you know, it doesn't make you gay and he's like, I I'm not trying to say that, like, I really am like, Is it going to hurt like, what do I do to prepare? How do I get ready?

Unknown Speaker 27:00
Right. You know,

Sarah MacLean 27:02
I think that's a really it brings up a whole separate batch of questions about romance in general and how well or not well, it prepares readers for sex. Yeah, right. I mean, I, I think, because I think a lot about the fact like, I think about anal and I think about how I had no idea like romance did not prepare me in any way to like, understand how anal works. Right, right. Oh, yeah. Right. So like, I think so i think that that kind of conversation in romance is really fresh and interesting and should happen more on the page. And, again, it's the place where erotic romance can be doing some really interesting and I think important work. Yeah, you know, the last time we this is the second time we've recorded this episode, because we had a little bit of a problem the first time and that day, I had just been to have an extra While I was sitting there, I was not discussing this episode with the X ray tech surprisingly. But the X ray tech while I was there was saying, Oh, we've had a really interesting day today because you know, your story is definitely the most boring story and somebody else would come in was younger a young man and he had a tube of mascara.

Sierra Simone 28:28
Oh no loss Oh, no,

Unknown Speaker 28:30
no, no

Unknown Speaker 28:31
No learn base everybody know that. Here's the thing, right? Like,

Sarah MacLean 28:36
that's a thing where like, okay, there's this is there's a lot going on, like his, the X ray text response was his mom was real pissed.

And

I can't imagine like I was like, well, it's probably worse for him. And truthfully, like this entire experience is going to be a terrible experience between him and his mom if they can't figure out a way to talk about it. But the reality is like who's was having how are we having these conversations? Like is it romances job to teach us? Like? There's some interesting questions here, right? Like, you know, it is not romance this job to teach us. But like, we don't want porn teaching us. So where do we learn? So I guess in this I mean, this is sort of a much bigger kind of academic and like parenting and you know, a traditional question, but

these

I'm really happy to hear about that conversation in Ron's book because

Jen Prokop 29:32
Yeah, right, exactly. Because I do think it's tricky. Like, I agree with you that this is not exactly it's not romances job to teach. But at the same time, I think it probably behooves at least most writers to know that many people are learning about sex through romance. Yeah. And like, that's like a real tricky thing. I will say I will put a link in show notes to a website that I just think is actually terrific. for teaching about sex, it's called Scarlett teen. And it is literally called, like sex ed for the real world. And it's really aimed at teenagers and like emerging adults, right, like young people, but I, I, I think anybody would benefit like, everything's really straightforward. It's pretty non judgmental. I think it does a pretty good job about addressing like, gender identity. It's not like gender essential, you know what I mean? It's not just like, this is what women are. And I so I do think that like, but I tell a lot of people about Scarlett teen and they're like, I've never heard of that before. And I don't know if I'm just lucky because I work in a school and I know the folks who teach sex ed, but there are resources out there that I think you know, if you're too embarrassed to talk to your kids about sex, like I will say, I know that it's like really hard, but I do think it's like a really important part of our job as parents sprite because

Otherwise you're in the ER

Unknown Speaker 31:03
Yeah.

Sierra Simone 31:04
Lost your $13 tube of mascara.

Jen Prokop 31:10
I mean, who knows how much of the bill is for that?

Sarah MacLean 31:14
Oh god no, but not in you know i'm i'm thrilled that there are resources like this but like also just PSA moms and dads out there listening like, you know talk to your kids about all kinds of sex. Oh yeah things that they might be getting into it's going to be horrifying but enjoy embarrassing them

Sierra Simone 31:36
I think there is a there is a corner of fiction that does sometimes get a little bit more into these things and that's fanfiction because I know I have read fanfiction that is a little bit more detail oriented because it's you know, maybe it's written by a young person who like actually googled how to peg the I know I've read some fanfiction that was really illuminating and taught me some things. And I think I actually think in 2019 there's actually a lot of permeability between fan fiction and romance right now. Sure, I think I think a lot of fan fiction readers have grown up to be romance readers because they've been trained by slash fig by you know, reading these alternate universes with their favorite characters falling in love. And so they just sort of naturally graduated into romance, but they expect the same diversity and the same sex positivity that they found in fanfiction, which is really like it's a breath of fresh air, I think.

Jen Prokop 32:40
Yeah, I think that's awesome. I guess I would just like one more thing I would like to turn to in terms of like, cuz I guess my, my, of the three of us, my child is the oldest so I've actually done some of this work. Like I mean, we all you should all you know, you'd be talking to your younger kids about all sorts of things about their rights to their body and all that kind of stuff, right? But, and I can put up like lots of like links and show notes about like, how to talk to your kids about sex and, but like one of the things to like, for me that's really worked and I tell people this is that I like very much like when I sit my son down and we're like talking about this stuff, like just him, like I say to him, I'm like, I get that you're embarrassed, and you don't have to say anything, just like listen to me. And then I like really make it clear. Like, I feel like this is part of my job as your parent like, I'm just doing my job right now. I'm not here to embarrass you. I'm not here to like horrify you I but this is stuff that's like really important to me, that you are that you know about consent that you are being careful that you are like watching out for your friends that you know these like warning signs of like when someone might be in a dangerous situation. right and i think that you know, it's it's something that I think of is like a real responsibilities. Like, you're not going to send your kid off to college without them knowing how to like, do their own laundry. So make sure they know how to like buy condoms, and, you know, like talk about sex. And the thing that I have told my son is over and over again is like, if you can't talk to your partner or like about what you want to do, if you can't say, like, this is what I want to try, this is what I want to do, then you probably shouldn't be doing it. Yeah, right like that. That to me is like, just like the baseline. Like you have to be able to talk to your partner. It's something you're doing together. And that to me, I think feels like you don't have to really get too into the weeds about that is but it's like, if you can't even talk about what you want to do, then maybe you're not ready to actually try doing it.

Sierra Simone 34:44
You know, I think that that actually ties really well into pegging because I think pegging is one of the acts that requires a huge amount of communication. Because if you are penetrating someone with a toy like you yourself are not having a whole lot of Like biofeedback. So what is happening inside their body? And so there's just there's no way to do it without actively communicating as you go along, like you communicate before, like, you know, just basic things like what's the weather today? Like? Is it good about weather? Is it bad weather? Like? It's like a tornado warning then like, we're not going in, but, but then it's like a constant process of communicating throughout and then after, as well to say, like, how did that feel? Was that okay? And there's just, I mean, I don't think I've ever read a pegging scene where there hasn't been some degree of communication, because I think that if you wrote something like that, it would actually be really uncomfortable like emotionally to read because it's such a, it's it just requires that in this it necessitates it.

Jen Prokop 35:56
So do we want to talk about some actual books?

Sarah MacLean 35:59
Well, actually, I want to talk About my book, if if I can go first. Um, so I was thinking I'm, I'm just really, I'm really drawn to what you both are saying about, you know, one being mature enough to be able to ask for what you want. And with, you know, with purpose and with an understanding of your own your own ability to want and, and behave in a certain way but also in this sort of sense that like trust that I'm really interested in the trust that is implicit in asking for in broaching the topic with your partner. Yeah. Because it feels like once you're actually like, in the sheets, like

you've, you've come over the

most impressive hurdle, which is like asking for it right, which is hard. Right? All right. This feels dirty, by the way. Like I feel like every word coming out of my mouth

Jen Prokop 37:00
We're gonna get we're giving the people, Sarah.

Unknown Speaker 37:04
I know.

Sarah MacLean 37:05
So

anyway,

I so anyway, my point is that I think this this issue of trust in conversation with your partner the ability to say, I want this thing I want this thing that's kinky or not kinky or whatever in our relationship and frankly, I mean sexual or otherwise, is a massive hurdle for a relationship, especially in the beginning. And I mean, especially when it comes to sex like, which is awkward and weird and funny and stupid and all those things all right, it's never as perfect as it's certainly not the beginning ever as perfect as it is to pick a page. And so my pick for this is aelia winters. I mean, it feels like she keeps coming back, but winters winters is tied score, which is the second book in her slices of pie series, which follows. It's basically an erotic series focused and centered around gaming company. But in this particular you don't have to

the heroine of this book is

the HR person at this gaming company. And here is a baker.

And we all know I love the baker.

And basically like she goes in to the bakery every morning, I really love the way this flips the script. There are a lot there are a lot of romances where like the businessman hero gets his coffee every day from right like everything about this book kind of turns these, like classic tropes on their head. But he goes into she goes into his bakery every day and she buys coffee every day and they sort of make eyes at each other and they were kind of into each other and then like suddenly they're you know, they're into each other and She is a it's a little BDSM she is in them in, she likes scenes, she likes to be a DOM. And and he has a submissive streak that he knows he has but hasn't like thoroughly explored. And I really like as you all know, like I really like this dynamic with the with the heroine as DOM. So this I knew going in like I picked up this book because I knew going in this was going to scratch an itch for me that you don't see very much but in this particular case, um she's also like she knows she's, there's nothing about this that feels prescribed in the way that erotic romance can often produce a DOM and a submissive where it's like everyone knows their own rules. Everyone knows like exactly how everything goes Dom's know everything is perfect in every way. That's just not how this goes and it lovely And there's this

moment about

halfway through the book and I think about the fact I think it was Eugen who said, like pegging doesn't happen on page one like it. Yeah, it's an act that comes out later.

Jen Prokop 40:12
Meanwhile, I said that and I'm an ally when I talk about mine, but it's gonna be okay. That's like exception that proves the rule. Exactly.

Unknown Speaker 40:20
So

Sarah MacLean 40:20
there's, they go into the two of them together, go into a sex, like a sex shop. And the woman behind the counter is like, very friendly. And she's like, welcome. And he turns to the hero turns to the heroine and says, What did you have in mind and I sort of, it feels it all feels very light. There's this new sex shop in our neighborhood that like where there's nothing like the windows are all like open to the street and like it feels like a revelation to go in there. It doesn't feel secret or sword in any way. And I like that about this representation on the in the book. That's sort of an aside. And she says, The heroine says, I thought,

um,

maybe a harness.

Like ellipses in the sentence like it's clear that she feels we're in his POV right so we can't see when we can't see what she's thinking. But like it's so clear that she's like, I know what I want but I feel weird saying it to you like I don't I'm not sure how this is going to go I'm not sure that you'll have me after this like I'm not sure we'll be in the same place anymore. I could be fucking up

and then he says

that sounds fun is it's like to try and then he touches her but just like with one finger like he just like runs a finger down her spine. And she says Yeah, I think so if your game and he says and then he bends down is like super sexy and is like, you want to peg me, Miss Parker and like it's This moment where you're like they're having this like hot, consensual moment, and it's filled with like her. And it begins with her uncertainty with like, yeah, her not being like the perfect DOM and not being able to read like, being in a place that's very authentic and real. It felt like to me. Yeah, that's awesome. Anyway, the rest of the pegging scene is great. All this is to say, like, the rest of the book is fabulous. The pegging scene is great. It's super hot. ilias really, incredibly skilled at this. And, you know, you've heard us talk about early on the podcast before, so I don't have to oversell but I wanted to really, you all said that in it. I just I found that moments. So real. So great. Great.

Jen Prokop 42:48
Yeah. Just a quick shout out. Her latest book three for all also has a pegging scene.

Sierra Simone 42:55
Oh,

Sarah MacLean 42:56
I also think I'm not gonna a good time to break are a person on Twitter who

peg someone in a different way through song?

Jen Prokop 43:15
It's honestly I feel like the most brilliant thing I've ever heard at

least at times when you are the one who like reached out, and we're like hello

Sarah MacLean 43:29
King delighted by it. Her name is Aida. And she is awesome. She's hilariously funny her Twitter handle is shut up Aida. And actually just recently she announced that she has a new job she's joined the writers room at Big Mouth the the the animated show on Netflix that is about teenagers going through puberty, which I think is like the most I'm wild about this show. It's awkward and weird and it's exactly the right representation of what puberty feels. Like, so congratulations to Ada for this but

more importantly, she is the creator

of and we will post this tweet and we will put the music in right now.

Unknown Speaker 44:19
Real quick. No, it's not gay bro. I'm just having fun, bro. I just wanna stick. But bro, I'm being truthful and make yourself visible and let me just imagine a

Unknown Speaker 44:29
bag. I got a strap.

Unknown Speaker 44:30
I gotta press pay for your ass. Hey, I've got a question to ask.

Unknown Speaker 44:35
Do you get your booty in

Unknown Speaker 44:36
the air? Maybe we could do each other's hands stop being homophobic and benya as over it's not like your homies are here. And to be clear, I know you would love it.

Unknown Speaker 44:49
You got a big

Sarah MacLean 45:03
The tweet reads unnormalized pegging at all costs

fucking fabulous rap.

And with that she had that she wrote in like a heartbeat. And my favorite line of it is, uh, I got a strap. I got a fresh peg for your ass. I got a question to ask. Do you see with your booty in the air? Maybe when we're finished, we can do each other's hair.

Jen Prokop 45:36
Anyway, let's feel blessed everybody. It's great.

Sarah MacLean 45:38
You guys my favorite song. My favorite song.

Jen Prokop 45:42
It's amazing. It really is.

Sarah MacLean 45:44
What's important here is that we all get to the point where we've asked, and that's right. enthusiastic verbal vocal consent.

Jen Prokop 45:52
There you go.

Why don't you go next, Sarah?

Sierra Simone 45:57
Yes. Okay. I My book this time is learned my lesson by Katie Roberts. And this is part of her wicked villains series. Which, if you're not on Instagram obsessively following her staging her sex scenes with Barbie dolls, then you should be. But this series follows different Disney villains and sort of kind of alternate universe. They're all in the same city, kind of squaring off against each other. And learn my lesson is about Hades, Hercules and Meg. And it kind of starts out with so Hades owns a kink club. And in in owning this kink club, he's kind of got control over the entire city. His King club is the only neutral ground in this city. And he has information on everyone and Megan's really his His right hand person like she's his submissive, but she's also a switch in the club. And she manages the day to day running of the club like she is as much the mistress of it as he is the master. But at the beginning of the book, they kind of start out in this sort of marriage and trouble place. So they've been together for you know, long time, like 10 years. And something shifted in Hades, right? And like Megan's really feeling like something's changed between them. And so the book opens there at a restaurant and it's supposed to be kind of like a nice dinner date, but it's not going that well. And then this waiter walks in, and he's just like six foot five of like, golden puppy muscle boy. And Hades is like, I want you to seduce him. And you find out later that like Hades has sort of like revenge reasons for wanting this thing to happen. But what happens between Meg and Hercules ends up being Super genuine. And then Hades and Hercules end up having this really genuine connection. And Hayes is definitely like the slither in hero who's anti hero who's kind of bent on revenge who's like, I love zero things. And then by the end of the book, he's like, Damn, and I love two things I'm

Unknown Speaker 48:16
supposed to.

Jen Prokop 48:23
Perfect. So great.

Sierra Simone 48:26
There's a really beautiful pegging scene that were made pigs Hercules while he is, is getting oral sex to Hades.

And what I love

about it is it's everything that I want out of the pegging scene, right, like there's sort of this flip of gender and who's the passive partner and all this stuff. But I also really love I don't want to say how casual It is like, because there is consent involved and there is like, planning and emotional preparation, but it's just a given the Hercules' would be open to this kind of thing. And so it really, it almost makes the default as it should be, which is that there's no stigma attached. You know, in this world that Katie is created, there is no stigma to what we want and what we need to do for ourselves in bed. And so it happens and it's this really like, coalescing scene between the three of them, like it's really the scene where you begin to see like what they could be as a threesome. And not just as an antihero, a puppet and his, you know, like, jaded submissive. And I love the whole book, and I love all the books in the series and she has more books in the series coming out. I think the next one is going to be hook and Tinkerbell. So if you're into that kind of thing, I think that's coming in late, like late winter, like early 2020.

Unknown Speaker 49:56
There you go. Keeping

Unknown Speaker 49:59
Yeah. Um,

Jen Prokop 50:00
that's really interesting because I think that it sounds like we have all found like really different like pegging examples I am going to talk about, and I'm going to preface this by saying it was written right after the election in 2016. And it has a plot that I think, like the most ridiculous part of the plot. The hardest thing to believe is not the pegging on the first date. That is easy to believe it's that this is a love story between a democrat and a Republican. Which I know and I hate myself for recommending it but I feel like I love it so much but I feel like four years ago even it kind of felt like this was a plot that could happen. He really he at the end the republican completely gives it up he like he

quits the party he understand is wrong, but Still, like I don't even know he

Sarah MacLean 51:02
legit pegs the patriarchy is what you're saying.

Jen Prokop 51:07
Yeah, it's

called life, liberty and worship by Tamsin Parker. And it was in the first rogue anthology. So it's called broke desire. And I'm going to guess that if Tamsin was writing this right now, she would write it about like, a Democrat and then like, I thought about voting for Bernie for five minutes. But didn't actually do it like, right anyway.

I voted for George, local. You know, like, when I was eight, in my local school board election, there was only one republican running. So I had

three or four years like a lot of changes what I'm trying to tell you anyway, so here's it's a great, it's a great book if we can just like read Gone away. That one part of it. So, Paige is goes every like, you know, however often to like a spinning class and the guy in front of her, she like thinks he's really cute but she notices that he wears these sort of like political t shirts and she just and then he like gets all sweaty and takes them off and she's like, Oh, I hate this guy. And but he of course it turns out is just like one of those like, sad boys who doesn't want to talk to anybody. And so he finally like sort of, you know, get up the gumption to like ask her out. But unfortunately for him he does it after she sort of overhears like another guy like being real Brody and saying something stupid and and she is just like, fine. I'll go out with you like, come to my come to like this address at 10 o'clock. And in the meantime, she actually is sort of figured out That he writes policy papers for you know, like some sort of competing, whatever wonky thing and she like does respect the way he thinks like even though she doesn't quite agree with his politics because at one time and the school board election he voted Republican. She She liked it so he like shows up and she's basically like, he's like, What's your name? And she's like, you can find out after I have my way with you and basically like, brandishes this her harness, I mean, like, and he it's really amazing. She basically thinks she's gonna like, scare him away. And it's like, the greatest line in this book is he's like,

I've never done this book.

She's, you know, she's like, and she's like, what, fuck the Democrat.

But the thing is, is that she is she takes the response. ability of like penetrating him, like of pegging him really seriously, right. So even though she's, like, furious at him, and really does almost view this as like an act of revenge in some ways for what she thinks he stands for, she is still so careful with him. And she is and he and she's really surprised that he goes for it. She's like, wait, I thought you'd essentially like run, you know, run away. And they, she, like fucks up and basically kicks him out the door. You know, it ends up being like a really like for his show. You know, sometimes I'm just really amazed at what a great author can do with a short amount of time, right. And so, in this case, one of the things I think we really get is, you know, we talked about like, trust a lot right so far and like the other books that you guys have talked about, but pegging is also about power. And I think that's something that page really knows but it Not a power that she takes lightly and she doesn't like cross her like emotional feelings of anger disappointed with him and his kind of what she thinks he stands for, with like the, the very careful like power kind of and responsibility she she has with him in the bedroom. So I think it's like a really interesting one because because there isn't that emotional, or like trust there. It really is like sort of more of a of an act where she's like, I, this is what I want to do. And he's like, yeah, I kind of want you to do it too. But I think it's really hot. I think it's real sexy. And I think it's ultimately she is able after the physical act of begging him to sort of emotionally when they sort of eventually do kind of come clean. Like really say to him like I could never be with someone who believes the things that you believe and he has really has to face like, okay, the republican party I grew up in when I voted in the school board election. No like, right?

It's not

like what I stand for either, right? I mean, he's pro choice and he and he really has to sort of face like, Oh, I this this has changed and and you're right. And so he basically agrees to do the right thing and come over to the side of rightness and goodness and pegging.

Sierra Simone 56:30
We have pegging nice, you know, I really love but that's

I really love that this is your choice because I feel like it more maybe more than Sarah and I as pics represents, like where pegging can go in romance, like outside of like latex and safe words and you know, like, really intentional power structures that are built ahead of time. Like I think that it can represent like that picking can end up being kind of like how anal play is now where it used to be really restricted where you would find anything about the butt. And now, I mean, I sometimes I'm even kind of surprised when it doesn't come up in some contemporary romances as at least like a thing that someone's thinking about. Right? And so I hope that I mean, I really hope that like this is kind of a good bellwether of like, where we can go with it. We can use it as a metaphor as shorthand, but we can also use it as like, spontaneous you know, first aid sex. Yeah.

Love that. I'd be a hell of a first date.

Unknown Speaker 57:39
very memorable.

Sarah MacLean 57:46
That would be a fun thing to try on Tinder. Like just

Unknown Speaker 57:49
we like

Sarah MacLean 57:51
surely swipe right if I will, if I can pay you on the first day.

Jen Prokop 57:57
Yeah, I mean, it would sell you lucked out. Hello. Man, you would lose a lot of Yeah, stinkers.

Sierra Simone 58:04
A lot of stinkers. I mean

Jen Prokop 58:09
you said stinkers.

Sierra Simone 58:13
We need to do you know how we did like the last limb count for ID it's like, we need to have the unintentional pun. count for Sarah.

Unknown Speaker 58:31
Sarah,

Sierra Simone 58:33
yeah, don't don't make a sale.

Jen Prokop 58:38
As we like wrap up, I would like to tell you one of the greatest Twitter accounts ever to be created is at is there pegging? And if a book has pegging in it, they will retweet it.

Sarah MacLean 58:52
So girls,

Sierra Simone 58:52
yeah.

Jen Prokop 58:56
I don't know.

But based on the followers, I know it seems highly likely that someone we know

Sarah MacLean 59:07
guys

doing the Lord's work out here.

Jen Prokop 59:12
That's right now I have got to say it was my job to like list the names of the Peggy and Caldwell and I forgot to get it. I you know, it's like notes I had when we first recorded a month ago. So I think we'll have to put it in show notes, but I do know that like, the person I communicated with, is he is reading and she is famous actually in the past month for freaking out everyone on the fucking internet by getting Colin Firth trending. Remember that? She posted? Like, like, you know, which what's your age? And which, which Darcy Do you like, and all of a sudden, like 50,000 people or something answered her tweet, and everybody else was like, why is Colin Firth trending because they thought he was dead. And I was like, you need to like use your powers for good and not evil. So,

Unknown Speaker 1:00:07
here we are. And here Here we are, here we are.

Jen Prokop 1:00:15
Any last thoughts on

pegging? Before we wrap up this very special episode?

Sarah MacLean 1:00:20
You know what, I'm just going to say that I, I'm always so fucking delighted when Sierra joins us, even though it feels it feels only been once before. It feels like it's been a lot, but it's just been once before. So if you have not, if you skip the first season, or you skip reading ID, I highly, highly recommend you listening to the mcgroove episode of this podcast is not just I mean, you'll learn the plot of margrave which is banana.

But also, there's a lot of

really thoughtful conversation about erotic romance. And there were Sierra I think both of our minds a little bit.

Jen Prokop 1:01:02
Oh my god. Yes. Well, and before Sierra goes to wait, I know I'm not sure if you're going to say this, but I'm pretty sure that she has written a book with pegging. And I was hoping he would end up by

like, talking about your book or giving you a chance to talk about your book too. I mean, hell I'm

Sierra Simone 1:01:20
I'm just such a I'm like such a retiring like shrinking violet.

Jen Prokop 1:01:26
Special guest who has written about this in her books, and somehow she is not doing the right thing by telling us about it. So that's where we're going to like, make sure we go before Well,

Sierra Simone 1:01:35
I didn't want to horn in or maybe I do, maybe morning.

Jen Prokop 1:01:42
I was like, Oh, yeah, he does spam.

Sierra Simone 1:01:51
Yes. So if you are interested in reading any of my books, or reading about pegging or reading and pegging Sienna I have novella called the moon, and it is a very kind of broody, sexy contemporary retelling of Merlin and then way and I know Jen is probably making a face right now. So, I love Even I promise even of Merlin. I love you too. Even if Merlin's not your thing, that's totally okay. Um, but it is. It's a really sort of, I really kind of wanted to explore sort of like, what a spiritual kind of feeling that pegging could generate. So, I use the the pegging scene between the two of them as sort of this final act of like, complete elemental joining, I guess between them. And I think that it's a lot of fun. But if, like, you know, magic and pegging aren't your thing I totally understand. But yes, that is called the

Sarah MacLean 1:02:59
moon. And it's a In the world of the new Camelot series

Sierra Simone 1:03:02
Yes, so I wrote a series called New Camelot. It's a trilogy and it is a contemporary retelling of Are there going to be are and Lancelot. But everyone's in love with each other, and they all have lots of like very angsty sighs amazing. And the moon takes place after the trilogy, but you don't need to read the trilogy. To understand what happens in the moon. It can it can stand on its own.

Sarah MacLean 1:03:27
Got it. And then I just want to say and you know, you can plug your ears if you want here. But if you are new to the podcast this week, and you are a car fan, we did a deep dive read of priest, we will link to that in show notes as well. Don't miss it. We love it. It is one of the transformational texts of the genre. According to me, Oh, stop.

Sierra Simone 1:03:53
So I'm plugging my ears. Now. I'm plugging, I'm plugging.

Unknown Speaker 1:03:58
There's another one.

Jen Prokop 1:04:00
Got it, man.

They got us we got to squeeze them all in before they got

Sarah MacLean 1:04:09
as much as possible.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:12
So there it is. All right. Yeah, picking that was great. That's

Unknown Speaker 1:04:17
what she said,

Sarah MacLean 1:04:19
Where can people find you online after they've decided they love

Sierra Simone 1:04:23
you?

Jen Prokop 1:04:25
And they want to read everything you've ever written?

Sierra Simone 1:04:27
Yes, you can find me on Instagram as the car Simone or on

facebook.com slash the car Simone. And then also I have a Facebook group,

which is pretty awesome. And there's a lot of people who like kind of the dirty books in there. So if that describes us, and that might be a group of people that you would like to talk about 30 books with. And I have a Twitter but I don't go on to twitter.com so don't tweet me because I

Unknown Speaker 1:04:58
guess it's just good.

Sarah MacLean 1:05:01
Yeah, it's just good. Thank you. As always we are already as I mentioned earlier in the podcast we already have a plan for Sears third Oh yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:13
Third time's a charm. Oh god.

Sarah MacLean 1:05:19
Jen what else we have

Unknown Speaker 1:05:20
to say? Please remember to

Sarah MacLean 1:05:22
like and subscribe if you're new to the podcast and you really enjoyed this this is what it's like every week. I mean not always with Sarah but with

you can subscribe and like and leave a review if you feel so inclined.

We you get buttons and other fun things

Jen Prokop 1:05:42
and there is a pegging the patriarchy button actually. And it comes it's like round and then there's like a little like side button. That's just a carrot.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:50
Yes. Yes. There's

Sierra Simone 1:05:52
like a little tiny button that goes with it. This a little carrot and sort of like the

Unknown Speaker 1:05:57
secret

Jen Prokop 1:06:00
Yeah, we could all wear it at like kiss

Sarah MacLean 1:06:02
cons in rW ways and really show and we would know.

Unknown Speaker 1:06:07
Yeah.

Sarah MacLean 1:06:09
So you can do that through Jen's website links and show notes. You can buy

some gear, romance gear t shirts, and other things from my partnership with Jordan Denae links and show notes more to come in the new year in February. So coming soon, a much bigger collection. Our producer is Eric Mortensen.

Jen Prokop 1:06:30
Don't forget to vote the right way and all of your upcoming elections whether they be for the local school board or for you know, the future of American democracy. Share

Unknown Speaker 1:06:41
that to

Jen Prokop 1:06:48
2020 all we gotta do is

Unknown Speaker 1:06:49
vote every election year guys we're

Sarah MacLean 1:06:51
in. Oh my god.

This year's gonna be 40,000 years long.

Jen Prokop 1:07:01
All right, everybody have a good one

Sarah MacLean 1:07:02
you all so much?

Sierra Simone 1:07:12
Real quick

Unknown Speaker 1:07:21
let me maybe

Unknown Speaker 1:07:33
stop being homophobic and benya

Unknown Speaker 1:07:38
No, you wouldn't love it.

Unknown Speaker 1:07:46
Let me show me

Elizabeth (Voicemail) 1:08:14
Hi, this is Elizabeth, aka is reading can remember the pegging crew. I wish I was sure which one was my first romance. It was so long ago. I think it was either seadrill by Penelope nary Dark of the Moon by Karen robarge. But beloved rogue by Penelope Williamson.

What I am sure is that it was hella problematic and would not hold up to now.

So, the more as to why we asked for this to be this episode to be tagging, I've talked a lot with the members of the peddling crew about why we're so interested in things enrollment. And I think is one of the goals of writing or and or reading romance is to dismantle the patriarchy, there is no clearer metaphor for that then tagging, as per the button taking the patriarchy. And this is sort of a way of undoing all that problematic. text that we read when we were younger, especially those of us who Kingdom romance in the 80s and 90s. Like Ilana, and Broad City says, things have been terrible for women up to and including today. And 2019 has definitely been for me the year of misogyny fatigue along with a lot of other fatigue. romance provides a safe space for fantasy and wish fulfillment. And I think that heading is something that a lot of women can relate to right now in

in not never avenge sense but in a way of taking back power.

I hope that makes sense. And that will and thank you for recording this episode for us and with you guys for doing this. Thank you

Read More
Bonus Episode, interstitial, mini-episodes, quickie Jennifer Prokop Bonus Episode, interstitial, mini-episodes, quickie Jennifer Prokop

S02.16: Christmas Romance Novel Recommendations

Merry Merry Happy Happy Joy Joy…it’s Christmas and we can’t quit you, so we recorded a little stocking stuffer for you—fifteen minutes of Christmas novella recs, along with a far-too-long discussion of our favorite Christmas Songs.

If you want to give us a gift this year, please like/subscribe to/review the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform!

We’re back next week with the seasonally appropriate (at least in title) Born in Ice, by none other than the queen herself, Nora Roberts. Read Born in Ice at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo or your local indie.

Show Notes

Read More
S02 - Interstitials, interstitial, full-length episode, guest host, romance recommendations Jennifer Prokop S02 - Interstitials, interstitial, full-length episode, guest host, romance recommendations Jennifer Prokop

S02.06: Cinnamon Roll Heroes with Andie Christopher

We heard you! You wanted to talk about Cinnamon Roll Heroes, so here we are, and we’re bringing in an expert on the topic (in real life and in fiction) — Andie Christopher. We’re talking about the evolution and popularization of the beta in the 90s, why they became such a powerful force then, why they’re back now, and why they work so well for some readers! We’ll also talk about dating in 2019, recommend some books (obviously), and talk about Andie’s upcoming, Not the Girl You Marry, which is out November 12!

Transcript Available

Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, please leave us a like or a review!

Next week, we’re going back to paranormal with the first book in JR Ward’s Black Dagger Brotherhood series, Dark Lover. It’s a whole ride. Strap in. Get it at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo or your local indie (it’s currently only $2.99 in ebook!).

Show Notes

TRANSCRIPT

Sarah MacLean 0:00 / #
Okay, so we're just popping this in at the beginning of the cinnamon / # roll interstitial with Andie Christopher, give us a couple minutes, you guys Andie's on her way. But we have a plan and we're very excited about it.

Jennifer Prokop 0:13 / #
It's really exciting. Sarah made me try it. So we know it works.

Sarah MacLean 0:18 / #
It's true. So we have set up a voicemail box for you guys.For old school level, like you can basically page

Jennifer Prokop 0:30 / #
Oh my god, it's like A Tribe Called Quest song.

A Tribe Called Quest 0:33 / #
Enter your Telephone number or other numeric message.

Sarah MacLean 0:43 / #
So we're going to give you a telephone number, a United States telephone number for international listeners. And you're going to get to call and it's going to go right to voicemail. And you will hear my voice asking you to tell us about the book that blooded you, Jen, what do we want them to tell us?

Jennifer Prokop 1:03 / #
Okay, so I think here's the important thing. We are hopefully going to actually play these audio clips on future podcasts. Yeah,

Sarah MacLean 1:11 / #
you're by giving us voicemail, by leaving us a voicemail you are consenting to us putting it on the podcast.

Jennifer Prokop 1:18 / #
Yeah. So I think it's really important that you probably should just say you're like your first name. You don't have to give us your full name, address please or phone number. Please don't do that.

Sarah MacLean 1:26 / #
Please don't.

Jennifer Prokop 1:27 / #
None of us would like any of your data we we want you to be pleasantly anonymous. Anyway. So you're going to tell us your name. If you would like to-- where you live. That's kind of fun when you started reading romance, some small biographical details, I think to get the flavor. And then I want you to tell us the book and it's really great if its title and author.

Sarah MacLean 1:49 / #
Yes, please. And tell us why.

Jennifer Prokop 1:51 / #
Yeah, like Sarah story where she read Gentle Rogue her desk, right? I think what we're looking for is not like your review of the book, but your memory of the reading of it. right?

Sarah MacLean 2:02 / #
We're interested in like the prime on this of this book. Why this is the book that brought you to romance and kept you here? Um, so that is the story. That is what we're doing. The telephone number is [redacted]. And we are not putting this-- you have to write it down, you guys. We're not putting on the internet because the last thing I need is like cranky readers leaving me voicemail about my books. Don't leave me voicemail about my books.

Jennifer Prokop 2:41 / #
You know what I'll say? Yeah, it's if it's, if it's anything other than like, kind of what we described, we'll probably just delete it. And you know, we're not trying to be mean, but this isn't, you know, there's lots of ways to talk to us on Twitter or whatever. This is really specifically the books to blooded us hotline.

Sarah MacLean 3:01 / #
Okay, we're gonna give you the telephone number during episodes too, but like I said, we're not gonna put it in show notes. We're not gonna tweet it. It's really it's just between all us all US friends.Yeah, you know, 10,000 closest friends. So if you leave us-- pegging crew! Don't leave us messages about pegging.

Jennifer Prokop 3:32 / #
Oh my god. I'm excited about all of it.

Sarah MacLean 3:36 / #
I'm really excited to I can't wait. Tell us about the books that you love-- from the past from the present. Call multiple times. Tell us about multiple books.

Jennifer Prokop 3:48 / #
Sure. And you know, we're not sure exactly how we're how we're going to use this yet. So you know, we don't know exactly how it'll work. So it could be that we get inundated with calls and keep it up for a week or two and take it down. It could be something that goes on for a long time. So no promises anybody, maybe we don't, but we just think it'll be really fun to hear. Yes,

Sarah MacLean 4:09 / #
this could be a very big mistake to we haven't talked, but

Jennifer Prokop 4:13 / #
I don't think it'll be a mistake. I'm just worried it's too much. Like we won't be able to get everybody on right. I mean, you know, you guys seem cool though. I think

Sarah MacLean 4:21 / #
I think we're all gonna we're all grown ups. We're all going to be able to, you know, hold hold firm. I'm very excited that I'm making you all do something old fashioned, like pick up the phone and leave us a voicemail like a a civilized human being.

Jennifer Prokop 4:38 / #
No dick pics.

Sarah MacLean 4:41 / #
Note Yeah, impossible to leave us a dick pic.

Sarah MacLean 4:45 / #
Okay, And we can't wait to hear your voices in our ear holes.

Jennifer Prokop 4:55 / #
Yes, that's right.

Sarah MacLean 4:57 / #
Stay tuned for Andie Christopher and cinnamon / # rolls.

Sarah MacLean 5:02 / #
Well, we made a lot of people mad.

Jennifer Prokop 5:06 / #
They haven't even heard the Derek Craven episode yet, so I don't even know what the hell's going on Sarah

Sarah MacLean 5:13 / #
Well, welcome to Fated Mates everyone it is a beta cinnamon / # roll soft hero week. It's a little late Great British Bake Off.

Jennifer Prokop 5:26 / #
We actually just got an amazing-- someone tweeted us right now and was like, Is there a book where it's essentially set during the Great British Bake Off? Only I don't watch that show. And so it said #GBBO, and I didn't know what it was and I go look it up. So I'm like the wrong person to ask I guess.

Sarah MacLean 5:45 / #
I am the exact right person to ask about that. I don't know about a baking one. But Louisa Edwards did a like Top Chef style romance series which we will play in show notes. More importantly, we should introduce our guest.

Andie Christopher 6:02 / #
Hi.

Sarah MacLean 6:05 / #
Before we're too far down the rabbit hole. Welcome, Andie Christopher.

Andie Christopher 6:11 / #
Hi,

Sarah MacLean 6:12 / #
we are so excited to have you. I can't believe it's taken us until season two.

Andie Christopher 6:17 / #
It's it's taken a long time, but we did record that one episode that Just didn't make it.

Sarah MacLean 6:24 / #
It's actually not that it didn't make it. It's that someone was terrible at recording themselves.

Jennifer Prokop 6:31 / #
Wait, you have no idea everybody Sarah, I'm about to tell you a story you don't even know only Andie and I know-- which is I fucked up the recording the first time it was the three of us and actually accidentally had this master reverb thing on, which was essentially it made me sound like I was in a soccer stadium. And then-- here's what you don't know. I also recorded an interview with Andie because I interviewed her for Kirkus earlier this summer, and at literally 10 minutes before our scheduled phone call. My child-- who we were in Dallas for his volleyball tournament-- played volleyball day then ate a bunch of stuff and then literally barfed all over the hotel room. And I had to clean it all up, and then call and Andie and be like, "Hi, sorry. Thank God you're not in this room with me because it's disgusting." So I'm going to go with Third time's a charm.

Andie Christopher 7:22 / #
I hope so. I hope so.

Jennifer Prokop 7:24 / #
Nobody's gonna barf right now. And I'm not in a soccer stadium.

Sarah MacLean 7:29 / #
I'm really glad and also it's a good day, you guys. It's a really good day, because Nancy Pelosi finally got her shit together and was like, let's impeach the motherfucker.

Jennifer Prokop 7:45 / #
I mean, Yes. I need her to be hard as nails right now.

Andie Christopher 7:50 / #
She was bringing the Big Mom energy during that, during that press conference. She was bringing the "I told you once I told you twice. This is the third time and now we're done."

Sarah MacLean 8:05 / #
You don't get to go to prom. Yeah, if only we actually were prom. And, uh, but basically, what better thing for us to do tonight than to talk about soft, good, sweet heroes who make us happy to be in the world.

Jennifer Prokop 8:27 / #
So true.

Sarah MacLean 8:29 / #
So to a few weeks ago, we released our alpha episode. It was the first interstitial of season two because we decided it was time for us to come, we were going to come hard for all of you with season two. And Jen and I put our stakes in the ground on alphas. And we had, I think, a really thoughtful conversation about alphas and why they exist. And a lot of people on Twitter and in other places asked us a lot of really great questions about: why alphas? and Why not betas? and why not cinnamon / # rolls? And first of all, I just want to repeat something that I feel like we said a bunch on on that alpha episode but clearly needs repeating, and that is that at no point did Jen and I say that romance novels can't exist without alphas. And at no point did Jen and I say that alphas and betas are the only descriptors of heroes. In fact, I think at multiple points we said, this is sort of a dumb way of articulating heroes because they should be more right than one thing. They should have nuance.

Jennifer Prokop 9:43 / #
I don't even know if we said that. I mean, I feel bad. We say it to each other all the time. But on that particular note,

Sarah MacLean 9:48 / #
we definitely did. I went back and checked. I said like good writing requires the hero to be nuance,

Jennifer Prokop 9:54 / #
yeah. characters to be nuanced.

Sarah MacLean 9:57 / #
Exactly. So but what's really the reason why we're here So Jen and I had already started talking about Okay, we're going to have to do, we're going to do a second episode, and we're going to do an episode that'll be about kind of the softer hero. And I don't know, I'm really glad Andie's with us because I think one of the really valuable things for us to talk about, maybe at the very beginning of this, is what makes a cinnamon / # roll versus a beta. I'm not sure I understand all the terms. So can we do that first and really sort of establish what we're talking about? And then I want to talk a little bit about history. And then I want Andie to talk about her brilliant thoughts on why cinnamon / # rolls are working now in a way that maybe they weren't a year, a decade ago or five years ago.

Jennifer Prokop 10:44 / #
So I feel like we should talk about like the origin of that cinnamon / # roll like it comes from The Onion, right? Isn't that what it is? Like?

Andie Christopher 10:53 / #
It's like, it's like this sweet cinnamon / # roll of a human is too good and sweet for this world.

Jennifer Prokop 10:57 / #
Yes. And there's Also a really funny tweet. I should find that-- Yeah, I think it's funny because a lot of people like why cinnamon / # rolls? And I think it's actually a it comes from this Onion piece and I think it's just sort of pervasively became this really funny thing that everyone just really glommed on to as being a great way to describe a certain kind of character. And the fact that, I feel like one of, a pioneering person in terms of like defining it was Olivia dade. And we linked to her list of cinnamon / # roll heroes a bunch of times. But what she says is, "Cinnamon / # roll heroes are supportive, kind people who do their best even when they make mistakes." And so that is what it is that she defines as being a cinnamon / # roll hero. And then she made out, got a whole bunch of people to crowdsource the list and so if you're looking for heroes like this, after we talked about it today, we will link to this list because it is amazing and has, I don't know, 70 or 100 books on it that you might want to check out.

Andie Christopher 12:07 / #
Yeah, I think a couple of my books are on that too, but I'm not sure if those books are quite accurately as cinnamon / # roll-y as I thought they were.

Jennifer Prokop 12:14 / #
interesting.

Andie Christopher 12:15 / #
I mean, I think they are just not quite... I'm not going at.. I'm not on the Simone scale. I'm somewhere on the Claybourne curve.

Sarah MacLean 12:29 / #
I'm gonna go ahead and say that cinnamon / # roll heroes don't even make Simone scale. Her zero point on the access is Darcy, who is not a cinnamon / # roll. So,

Andie Christopher 12:43 / #
Okay, but I was thinking about this today. And I think Father Bell [hero of PRIEST by Sierra Simone] is in some senses.

Sarah MacLean 12:51 / #
What are you saying right now?

Jennifer Prokop 12:57 / #
You Gotta start over again. Time Out. Recalibrate.

Sarah MacLean 13:02 / #
Oh my god no

Jennifer Prokop 13:03 / #
Andie!

Sarah MacLean 13:04 / #
I'm pretty sure Sierra Simone is in London right now at Rare London, and I feel like she just woke up at like 5am and was like there's a disturbance.

Andie Christopher 13:15 / #
she would love me for saying something blasphemous...

Sarah MacLean 13:18 / #
But I will hear your arguments. Miss Christopher.

Andie Christopher 13:24 / #
Okay. For me, the cinnamon / # roll hero's number one priority is the heroine's emotional, mental, and or spiritual well being, physical well being. So that kind of overrides everything else and I think, Father Bell, because we're so in his head, expends a lot of the conflict of the book is trying to put the heroine's emotional, physical and spiritual well being over his own wants and desires that he has attempted unsuccessfully to sublimate.

Sarah MacLean 14:04 / #
Okay, so I think this is really interesting because I guess that all makes that all makes sense to me but what I don't understand is like how is that different than what any romance hero wants? Like? I think about Derek Craven, right? Who was our first book of the of the season or frankly most Kresley Cole heroes-- I mean not, okay, pbviously not Lothaire. But like, you know, there are others. Like all those werewolf heroes. I mean like werewolves...are they, are werewolf cinnamon / # rolls?

Andie Christopher 14:45 / #
I think the were-- of Kresley levels-- the werewolf in "A Hunger Like No Other" I'm his name is escaping me right now. He's not a cinnamon / # roll, I would say, and like MacReive is not a cinnamon / # roll

Jennifer Prokop 14:59 / #
See! Because I'm like, none of them are, Andie! What the hell are you talking about?

Sarah MacLean 15:03 / #
She's not wrong. Because what about about Lucia and...

Andie Christopher 15:06 / #
Declan.

Jennifer Prokop 15:07 / #
Declan! He's the vivisector!

Andie Christopher 15:11 / #
Sorry!

Sarah MacLean 15:15 / #
Well, we're the same way with all those heroes. Lucia and help, help me.

Jennifer Prokop 15:21 / #
Garreth.

Sarah MacLean 15:21 / #
in the Amazon

Andie Christopher 15:22 / #
Garreth. Yes,

Sarah MacLean 15:23 / #
Garrett?

Jennifer Prokop 15:24 / #
Garreth. Is it Garreth?

Sarah MacLean 15:26 / #
Yeah. Is he a cinnamon / # roll?

Jennifer Prokop 15:28 / #
No.

Andie Christopher 15:29 / #
I think he's a little bit of a cinnamon / # roll.

Jennifer Prokop 15:31 / #
I feel like I have to log off and go lay on a fainting couch. I don't understand anything anybody? Like, Oh,

Sarah MacLean 15:40 / #
All right. So this is really interesting-- somebody, but somebody else tweeted at us. A person named Charlotte, @romansdegare on Twitter, tweeted "I've still got that Fated Mates episode on the brain as I read "Damaged Goods" and starting to wonder if cinnamon / # roll conflict is often I'm caring for you emotionally so I can't lust after you. While alpha conflict is the reverse. I'm lusting after you so I can't care for you." And Jen and I sort of discussed this privately. And like there's something maybe here this, and you said it too. I think Andie when you said: you care about her like emotional and spiritual well being. Then you said, the third thing you said was physical, and I wonder if that's part of it. Like, where the relationship starts versus where it ends.

Jennifer Prokop 16:39 / #
So here's here's what I'm going to suggest, because I right now think-- as my blueprint-- is when I think of cinnamon / # rolls, to me, the pinnacle of cinnamon / # roll-dom is "Rafe" by Rebecca Weatherspoon. And I kind of felt, I literally was like, "I should reread part of it today to like, make sure I'm all on point." And I fell right back into the book. And I think there's a really interesting part. And there's also a really interesting thread someone tweeted us from her, a woman named Kat C, And what she said is cinnamon / # roll heroes are, not cinnamon / # rolls, but she "likes reading books where people are dealing with their baggage in not so aggressive ways." And I think what "Rafe" -- so there's this part in "Rafe" where he is essentially interviewing for the job to be her nanny, Sloan's nanny or her twin girls bailed-- literally, it's like horrifying as a mother-- she basically comes home and finds her six year old girls home alone. And the nanny left the keys to the car and the house keys with a note that said, "I quit. I just don't want to do this anymore." So she's really scrambling to find someone and she ends up getting Rafe, who's been essentially nannying, He's like in his early 30s, for like 10 or 12 years. And Rafe, at the interview says to her, "Um, I think we Have a problem. I've never, I've never nannied for a single mom I'm this attracted to before." And he just has, he's a grown up who can lay it out on the table and put it in front of her, as opposed to.... I don't know, like, stomping around and not admitting he has feelings. So to me a cinnamon / # roll is like, I have feelings, and I actually am aware of them. And I know what to do with them. I don't know you guys like. And the thing is, that to me is the it's because of course, alphas care for people! We talked about that. The difference I think, is

Sarah MacLean 18:36 / #
the emotion. The emotion sneaks up on an alpha.

Jennifer Prokop 18:39 / #
and a cinnamon / # roll person is like, Yes, I have feelings. Duh, who doesn't. And I'll tell you what, it's funny. I'm going to say one more thing. I there are parts of this book. I didn't do a lot of highlighting. There's this one part where they sort of like they kiss and she's like, "I'm not sure I really want to do this" and he's like, "okay, we're gonna leave it up to you." And then he's like, "What do you want?" And she says, "I want you to make this easy on me." And I was like, there you go. He was like, you're right. His communication skills are through the roof. That to me is what makes a cinnamon / # roll a cinnamon / # roll. Being able to communicate,

Andie Christopher 19:17 / #
yeah, can use this words as opposed to like, I want to punch someone.

Jennifer Prokop 19:20 / #
Okay. And in the case of brief, also his cock fine.

Andie Christopher 19:24 / #
I sort of reject the premise that any romance hero that I'm really going to fall in love with does not have a quasi-magical penis. Like, I want I want to be like, I'm vomiting out unicorns the next day thinking about the hero and what he can do with his magical member.

Jennifer Prokop 19:53 / #
I'm just giggling

Sarah MacLean 19:54 / #
I don't think you're alone in this.

Andie Christopher 19:57 / #
I just 100%... I hate, I don't like it when a book has an awkward sex scene between the hero and the heroine. That is the opposite of what my ID wants. Like my ID wants him to like, bang it out, make her see stars

Jennifer Prokop 20:14 / #
into next week!

Andie Christopher 20:15 / #
into next week, every single time. I need it. That's just it's a baseline.

Jennifer Prokop 20:24 / #
Rafe can get it, you guys! I just want you to know. I think part of the reason Rafe is particularly-- I don't read a whole lot of cinnamon / # roll books. This one really worked for me. And I think there are a couple reasons why. One is because I hate cooking and cleaning. And I did not like raising my child. I love my son, you guys, but I didn't... those years when he was really young were really hard for me. I still hate cooking and cleaning and always well. But the idea that a competent man is going to appear and like take over those tasks for me in my house. And also Fuck me into next week. Hello. Sign me up. I mean, I'm sorry. Maybe that's not everyone's fantasy, but I'm going to tell you right now. It is hot. It worked for me.

Sarah MacLean 21:11 / #
Okay, so here's my thing, right? So I was trying to come up with cinnamon / # rolls, who I have loved. And this obviously is a challenge for me. But I, here are two who I've loved. And ironically, it's the same trope, right?

Jennifer Prokop 21:31 / #
Okay, interesting.

Sarah MacLean 21:32 / #
I loved the hero and Helen Hoang's "The Kiss Quotient."

Andie Christopher 21:38 / #
Love him.

Sarah MacLean 21:39 / #
And I loved the hero in Claire Kent's "Escorted." And in both of those cases, we're talking about soft heroes, who are all the things that you are saying-- Able to vocalize emotion, able to understand like their emotional relationship with the world, They've been through therapy, or they have these big families. But at the same time, they're male escorts and highly-- Here you are, Jen--able to bang you into next week

Sarah MacLean 22:25 / #
But also I think there's something, but at the same time, like in that particular dynamic, I think the reason why both these heroes work well for me, is because there is sort of, there is a power structure here. Like they are deeply competent, and sort of teaching the heroine something. And so maybe they're not cinnamon / # rolls at all. I don't know are they?

Jennifer Prokop 22:53 / #
Clearly we're the three wrong people to be talking about this.

Andie Christopher 22:57 / #
I mean, I definitely think--I I haven't read "Escorted." But I definitely think Michael in "The Kiss Quotient" is a cinnamon / # roll. Um,

Sarah MacLean 23:06 / #
I mean, he's got that big family. He cares so much about his sisters and his mom. I mean, He's amazing.

Andie Christopher 23:13 / #
I think there's an interesting sort of layer of conflicts there because like, I think at first, he's not trying to let her into that part of him. So he is a cinnamon / # roll, but he has this, this sort of layer that he keeps between himself, his true self, and his clients. And so I think, you know, part of the conflict and part of them overcoming their conflict is she penetrates that. And the way I think, yeah, so it makes sense,

Sarah MacLean 23:43 / #
Jen!

Jennifer Prokop 23:44 / #
you guys, I'm doing my best.

Andie Christopher 23:48 / #
It's my... I think, penetrate is the right word, because like she's a little bit sort of the alpha in that, in that power dynamic. She really, she gets under his skin. You know, I think in a way, more quickly than... and then he gets under hers.

Sarah MacLean 24:11 / #
Yeah, it's just it's a really interesting question because... so it takes us, So that is the second piece of the question is, is a cinnamon / # roll and a beta the same? Or like is that even worth having -- like do betas even exist? But then I think they kind of do, right? So we talked a little bit about the history of the alpha when we talked about alphas, and we're doing a lot of conversational romance history as we do this season. And so I think it's valuable for us to talk about the history of the beta, right? And again, I think it's important and I just want to qualify when we talk about the history and we say like early books, or we say "the first" right, we're not obviously it's almost never the actual first

Jennifer Prokop 24:58 / #
Yeah, right.

Sarah MacLean 24:59 / #
Like the last six months of my life have been researching romance novels for the RITA award ceremony and Andie was doing that with me, and the most illuminating thing about it was that every time we thought we'd found the first like, five days later, we found an earlier first. So, I think we need to talk about betas and we need to talk about Julia Quinn because while she may not have written the first beta, she definitely is responsible for the popularizing of the beta. And that is because she wrote the Bridgerton series which, if you haven't heard of it, you soon will because Shonda Rhimes is turning it into a Netflix series literally as we speak. And the Bridgertons were this kind of, so Julia had written a couple of books beforehand, but sat down and sort of and wrote this really big boisterous family. Eight children who were named in alphabetical order, and they lived in, they were the children of a viscount. And they lived with their single, their widowed mother, in like a big house in London and they had a big country house and they sort of had these like, bright sparkling dialogue... scenes filled with sparkling dialogue and like, not a ton of plot happens in these books. It begins with a book called "The Duke and I." The plot of "the Duke and I," it's a very streamlined, straightforward plot. It doesn't have a lot of like, complex twists and turns and it doesn't have to because the dialogue is so beautiful and the characters are so bright. There's something very soft and wonderful about these books. But what's interesting is that prior to Julia-- historicals looked like, I mean, literally looks like Derek Craven, right? They, they look like, like these big bananas historicals. And then Julia came in and she wrote this family that was something very different. And the first Bridgerton book, which was "The Duke and I" was published in 2000. And I've spoken to I checked this data with Julia before we recorded because I wanted, I have a theory and I wanted to make sure that it checked out. And she confirmed that "The Duke and I" and "The Viscount Who Loved Me" and "An Offer From a Gentleman," which were published in 2000, 2000, and 2001, we're all very, did very well but like did not blow the doors off. "The Duke and I" did not come out like "50 Shades," although often we think about that as being one of those books now. In fact, the fourth book in the series, which is "Romancing Mr. Bridgerton" is the book that sort of really was the sort of leap into huge for that series. And that book came out in 2002. And I have a theory that, you know, we've talked on this on this podcast and I've talked a lot in the world about post 9/11. There being this kind of boom in paranormal because readers were looking for these like big, huge alphas who could literally save the universe. And they were like, that was safety in fear and sort of existential fear that Americans were feeling post 9/11. But I'm actually wondering if at the same time, we weren't also going through a period where books were getting softer. And there was room for these like soft heroes who were the antithesis of every romance hero we'd seen before. And I'm wondering if we're seeing that now, too. The sort of rise of dark romance on one side, these kinds of like, truly bananas books that are taking the finger on one side, and something else entirely that's happening now in the world.

Andie Christopher 29:13 / #
I -think you're right. I think that actually that jives with my theory of the cinnamon / # roll and why they're appealing

Sarah MacLean 29:21 / #
so do that.

Andie Christopher 29:23 / #
Okay, so I think they're particularly appealing to sort of millennial and Gen Z. single women, or women who have recently been dating, because the cis hetero men that we are dating are fucking terrible.

Jennifer Prokop 29:43 / #
I'm Sorry I laughed.

Sarah MacLean 29:44 / #
Break it down for us Andie

Andie Christopher 29:46 / #
all we want is a nice guy, who we don't have to raise, who doesn't hate us because we don't want to have sex with them right away. Or doesn't think we're a slut if we do who can use his words and cares about whether we have an orgasm-- in a larger sense of than what it says about his own ego. Someone who can actually be a partner instead of someone who is going to destroy your like--who's gonna take your finger. But I think on the other, on the other side of that, you also if you don't if you're dating a lot of, you know, softer gentlemen, who can't make a plan to save their lives. There's an appeal to reading about a man who wants you so much he will, he will plan an abduction. And I think this was like the first thing I said..

Sarah MacLean 29:56 / #
He will plan...nice

Andie Christopher 30:39 / #
..to Kristin Ashley and I did make her laugh. I was like, I think the appeal of like abduction fiction because I think she was talking about alpha heroes. Like, at least this guy can plan a date.

Jennifer Prokop 31:06 / #
Oh my god,

Sarah MacLean 31:08 / #
don't abduct women, male listeners!

Andie Christopher 31:12 / #
Do not, don't abduct women, but, you know, make a dinner reservation. Don't say, yeah, like where do you want to go? say I want to try this restaurant-- What do you think? it's all about the balance.

Jennifer Prokop 31:26 / #
Can I ask a question? I'm going to throw it out there. I, I do not read, I don't read much inspirational romance unless it's written by Piper Huguley. But I am wondering if the rise of Amish romance, and sort of Christian romance, around the same time-- because my understanding is it's also came about at the same time. If cinnamon / # rolls are essentially a secular version of of a like a more...Like a inspirational hero?

Sarah MacLean 32:05 / #
I don't know. I don't know and I don't know enough about inspirational to be able to speak really thoughtfully on it.

Jennifer Prokop 32:13 / #
I mean, well, maybe we'll just throw it out there for our listeners to do

Sarah MacLean 32:16 / #
if you do. I would love to hear that. You know, Andie thinks that Sierra Simone is out there writing betas.

Andie Christopher 32:24 / #
I didn't say he wasa Beta, I said he was like a little bit of a cinnamon / # roll.

Sarah MacLean 32:30 / #
He's the Conrad Wroth of...

Jennifer Prokop 32:32 / #
Yeah, yeah. He's gonna use that icing for Lub, I mean, I don't know.

Andie Christopher 32:37 / #
Can we talk about stern brunch Daddies.

Jennifer Prokop 32:39 / #
Oh, yeah, sure.

Andie Christopher 32:41 / #
Okay, so this is this is all Sarah's fault.

Sarah MacLean 32:44 / #
It's Andie's genius, though.

Andie Christopher 32:47 / #
Yeah, I did come up with the term. So Sarah posted this picture of Oscar Isaac sitting at like a table, at what looks like a restaurant, like holding a fork and like staring intently at the camera, and she's like, okay, Andie, I see him now. AI was like, Oh, I get what you like you like a stern brunch daddy. A guy who is gonna make sure your Mimosa never goes empty, but then he'll like spank you until you cry later.

Jennifer Prokop 33:11 / #
Sure, sure.

Sarah MacLean 33:13 / #
I mean, he would never allow you to be seated by the kitchen.

Andie Christopher 33:16 / #
Never. Like never he wants to talk to the manager.

Sarah MacLean 33:21 / #
It's true. This is only because I have Chris Evans blindness, meaning if he doesn't look Stern, I don't see him. I'm unable to see him and I have that problem with Oscar Isaac too, because I feel like if he doesn't look Stern, I don't even know what I'm looking at us like a blank face.

Andie Christopher 33:39 / #
Yeah, I mean, he has to serve up a little bit of Derek Craven for you to feel it.

Sarah MacLean 33:43 / #
Precisely. Which is why we're doing this podcast, this episode, because I don't I truly want to understand it. Because it's interesting and I think that what we're coming to is that it is in actual fact a exactly two sides of the same coin. Because everything that, you know, every way that we're articulating this in terms of like care and comfort and protection-- or not protection-- but care and comfort and like ease, right, like softness is ultimately what we want from the alpha on the other side. But it's it's almost like we're talking about when you get to see it in the book, like,

Andie Christopher 33:44 / #
Yeah,

Sarah MacLean 33:44 / #
do you see the transformation in the book? And if you do, it's like that. Then you've started as you know, I'm air quoting. You can't see it, but

Andie Christopher 34:40 / #
right.

Jennifer Prokop 34:41 / #
I don't know. I. I feel like because where

Sarah MacLean 34:45 / #
does the transformation come from the storm brunch?

Andie Christopher 34:47 / #
He just is

Jennifer Prokop 34:48 / #
I feel like cinnamon / # role heroes don't transform--- I feel like heroines do. Their romantic partners transform not them.

Sarah MacLean 34:56 / #
So when you think about Rafe, what's the transformation in the book?

Jennifer Prokop 35:00 / #
It's not, that's, okay. So I think the transformation in the book is for the heroine who in this case her ex husband is real dirtbag. And this is it's the only man she's ever been with. And so to be with Rafe to be with someone who respects, her who--she's this amazing surgeon, right? Who, who she can say, "I want you to make this easy for me" and he listens to her. I mean, it is just a transformitive-- like Andie was saying-- it's a transformative experience for her because she has been used to men disrespecting her and now she does not have to suffer that in her home. Right? And, and, and deep dicking into next week. I mean, this guy really knows how to take care of her in every way. So, but he, I do not see him as being a character who really undergoes change. He is--

Sarah MacLean 35:51 / #
Would we say like, they're, they're perfect from the start? Because Michael in "The Kiss Quotient" is pretty fucking perfect.

Jennifer Prokop 36:00 / #
Well, here's here's what I would suggest, because I actually don't know that I think they're opposites as much as I think it's just trying to achieve something different. And you're, as you were talking, I guess I would say this: to me, the alpha is like, I am pursuing what I want and that's also going to end up being what the heroine wants, we're going to figure it out together. But to me, a cinnamon / # roll hero-- if it's male, female romance-- is like, I know who I am. And I'm pretty happy and I'm wildly attracted to this woman. So my goal is to make sure she's getting what she wants. And I do think that those are different. That's, that's how it reads to me. When it works.

Sarah MacLean 36:41 / #
Yeah,

Jennifer Prokop 36:43 / #
I mean, that's what Michael wants, right for Stella in "The Kiss Quotient." He's like, what do you need from me? What what, how can I move you along this path that you're on? Now? I think he does undergo a journey.

Sarah MacLean 36:54 / #
Okay. But here's the thing, A lot of people came at us on Twitter about this and they were like, they were like, The problem with alphas, the problem with alphas is that they never want, they never want to hold up women and give women what they need. Right? They don't want women to have jobs. They don't want women to, you know, they don't want to support women in their careers or whatever. Right. And I think that that's a really interesting, and that's sort of what you're not saying, You're not in the extreme like that. But like, you're sort of dancing around that too. And that doesn't make very much sense to me in a modern role, like maybe the old romances? In a modern romance-- I've never written a hero who's like, "now you stay home, you don't get to keep running your bar" instead Haven has office in the bar now.

Jennifer Prokop 37:39 / #
So to me, if that's what an alpha is, I don't like it.

Sarah MacLean 37:44 / #
Yeah, well, if there's a parity issue that I think like gets lost in the argument here. Like,

Jennifer Prokop 37:51 / #
I just think alpha heroes if if we're comparing them and I don't even honestly know if it's that useful. Like maybe it's just different things entirely.

Sarah MacLean 38:00 / #
Maybe we're just spinning our wheels.

Andie Christopher 38:01 / #
I think it's hard to write like a really, really close to pure alpha in a contemporary romance Are you like you believe that you want, you would want to be in that same kind of relationship? And so to a certain extent, you know, there's still like alpha heroes and contemporary romance, obviously. But I think they're tempered to a certain degree. If your goal is to write a book that isn't like escapist.

Sarah MacLean 38:31 / #
right Right, right. Yeah. Fantasy right like if it's not you know, 50 shades like billionaire

Andie Christopher 38:40 / #
or like a motorcycle club. If it's not, it's not like um, you know, sort of a world you don't live in right?

Sarah MacLean 38:47 / #
It's not a Harlequin presents,

Andie Christopher 38:49 / #
Right. I mean, I think you can even write like, more pure alphas if you're writing sports romances. You're writing about like, larger than life.

Jennifer Prokop 38:59 / #
I want to go back to me like this really foundational moment in "Rafe" right? She says, "I want you to make this easy for me." And he as a cinnamon / # roll understands that what that means is I'm My job is to figure out what she needs and give it to her. I think if you said to an alpha, I want you to make this easy for me, he'd be like, "great, Just do what I want." And I don't think that means like, don't have a job. I think that just means like, Don't make me feel feelings. Right? Like let's just like have all the sex and stuff. I don't know!

Sarah MacLean 39:31 / #
I don't think it would be, "Don't." I don't think it would be "don't-- just do what I want." I think it would be like "Fine. Who do I pay to fix this problem?"

Jennifer Prokop 39:42 / #
Yes, Right.

Sarah MacLean 39:43 / #
Who do I punch to make you feel better? Like for an alpha he's he's a battering ram. He's like, "What do I have to break to make you happy?"

Jennifer Prokop 39:55 / #
When she says this to Rafe, and I like I said, I think this moment, To me it really spoke to, At its core what it was, when she said, "I just want you to make this easy for me." He understand that. That meant she meant,

Sarah MacLean 40:06 / #
emotionally

Jennifer Prokop 40:07 / #
I'm a little, I'm a little afraid of making decisions. I'm a little tentative, I'm not sure. And his response was, like, "come down here. We're going to figure it out together." Right, which I'm going to tell you it really works for me. I think it's really sexy at every level, but just in a totally different way.

Sarah MacLean 40:24 / #
Yeah, no, I mean, who doesn't want that?

Jennifer Prokop 40:26 / #
Yes. Right.

Sarah MacLean 40:27 / #
That's great.

Jennifer Prokop 40:29 / #
I'm just saying, I think how if I said to Derek Craven-- just make this easy for me-- He's like, good! Leave and go back to Greenwood Corners, so I don't have to think about you because you're freaking me out.

Andie Christopher 40:43 / #
And I mean, like St. Vincent would be like, maybe we should bone. An orgasm will make you feel better.

Sarah MacLean 40:50 / #
Right? But in real life, I mean, this of course, makes perfect sense. In theory, it's it's the moment where you say, I have words Or I have concerns or I have, you know, whatever. And the response is I want I hear that and I want to act to fix them. Like that's a, that's a noble thing. Like, I wish we all had that every day.

Jennifer Prokop 41:15 / #
Well, and I mean, maybe that's the fantasy: that they never tire of us being needy. I mean, I don't know, I mean, I think it's, I liked what Andie said a lot. It's not this idea that someone if we said-- I just want you to make it-- sometimes I literally say to Darrell, he's like, "what do you want for dinner" and I say, "I just want you to decide, that's what I want." Like, literally, that's what I want. I want you to decide I want you to make that decision. I just want you to make dinner appear in front of me. That is what care looks like to me right now.

Andie Christopher 41:48 / #
I mean, there's that there's that meme that you just say "I'm baby." So there's that like, you sometimes just want to like walk in the door and be like, I'm Baby, I get all of the like love and attention and coddling; as opposed to, I feel like, this like applies to some of my friends who you know are in relationships, especially hetero relationships that they feel like they're doing a lot more work.

Jennifer Prokop 42:23 / #
You know what this reminds me of. Okay, so back when I did TFA right after I was out of college, I had a roommate named Amy. And Amy would say the thing that, the first time she said it, I was like, that's the truest fucking thing I've ever heard. She'd had a fight with her boyfriend. And I don't remember exactly how it came up. She was fighting with him, she had this really tumultuous relationship. And she said to me, she's like, "you know, you can't ask for flowers." And like what it meant was if you have to ask for the flowers in order to get them, they mean less. A gesture-- a romantic gesture-- has to be driven by the other person. They have to know that what you need or want is flowers, or that right it comes out of nowhere. And I feel like you would never have to ask a fucking cinnamon / # roll for flowers. You would have to say though, to many alpha heroes: flowers are an actual sign of affection and every once in a while if you bring them to me, I will be happy

Sarah MacLean 43:29 / #
Well, it's it's interesting because there's also I'm sort of like dancing around in my I'm like playing over and over my head this idea that like there's something here about toxic masculinity. Which is these heroes lack that kind of toxicity. They are masculine without toxicity. I retweeted somebody today who was trying to explain, just because we don't want toxic masculinity doesn't mean we don't want masculinity. We don't want acid rain, but We still want rain. I think that's a really useful, Shit. What's a call from the SATs?

Jennifer Prokop 44:10 / #
An analogy?

Andie Christopher 44:12 / #
metaphor?

Sarah MacLean 44:14 / #
With the blank colon blank

Jennifer Prokop 44:16 / #
An analogy.

Sarah MacLean 44:18 / #
Yeah, whatever. It's a really useful one of those-- I think there's something there, essentially it's pure, it's and I do think it's contemporaries more than anything else that are doing, this because I mean, if Andie to Andie's point--- it's terrible out there, right? It's like that mement in "When Harry Met Sally" when You know, Carrie Fisher leans back and turns to Bruno Kirby and is like,

movie dialogue 44:52 / #
Tell me I'll never have to be out there again.

Jennifer Prokop 44:54 / #
Yes, that's right.

Sarah MacLean 44:57 / #
This is the moment

Andie Christopher 44:59 / #
I feel like there's all these studies that people, like millennials and Gen Zers or is are literally not fucking. Like Gen Z does not fuck

Jennifer Prokop 45:13 / #
Sad.

Andie Christopher 45:15 / #
I mean it's it's real sad, it's sad for me...on a personal level. But that's why I'm glad we have Sierra Simone in the world. Anyway, but it's real bad, and so it like you just want like a guy who is like, I was thinking-- I want a guy who's gonna open my door for me, and like smack my ass on the way out, but he's gonna know he has permission. Um, he's already he's gonna make sure that's okay. But not like in a needy or clingy way.

Jennifer Prokop 45:50 / #
Yeah, I mean, there are no consent issues with...

Sarah MacLean 45:53 / #
but this is such a fantasy. I mean, what you just asked for Andy is like fucking impossible

Jennifer Prokop 45:59 / #
That is more of a fantasy than anything else, right?

Sarah MacLean 46:01 / #
And that's more, that's more of a fantasy than any of these fucking alphas. The idea that-- well, I want him to get consent, but I want to make sure but he can't be too weird about getting consent, it can't feel needy or unsexy, right? You want it to be both sexy and also very clear. And you know, I wanted to smack my ass, but also respect me. And that's not to say that all of this isn't totally reasonable. But here's what's interesting. That takes, in real life, a long time to build with a partner. But like in these books, these guys just have it all.

Andie Christopher 46:38 / #
Yeah, that's what I mean. I that's when I went when I was like writing the hero in "Not the girl you Marry," I specifically set him up as he has been the perfect boyfriend his entire life, and he's failed at relationships. And that's kind of where he starts. So I tried to like have a cinnamon / # roll with a journey. But I still wanted him to be virtually perfect.

Jennifer Prokop 47:06 / #
Of course I think about um, you know, so many of Christina Lauren's recent heores have been this way-- this kind of truly perfect guy who just hasn't fit right.

Andie Christopher 47:21 / #
And I feel like a lot of Kate Clayborn's heroes are that way, they have either definitely flawed and human and layered, but they're not, you never question that they respect the heroine. That's never of question, and and see her as an equal.

Sarah MacLean 47:42 / #
I'm wondering if this is part of why we're seeing, that we've seen so so many fake engagement stories, too, recently? Yeah. Because you know, in our fake engagement episode, Jen and I talked about the fact that like the fan, the fake engagement is like Like, play acting that fantasy relationship. And in order for that to happen, well, cinnamon / # roll hero can do that.

Andie Christopher 48:11 / #
Yeah, and it's also like a cinnamon / # roll hero like you're faking that perfect relationship. Plus he acts like a human Flak Jacket at something like a wedding.

Jennifer Prokop 48:21 / #
Yeah. You know what I keep thinking? When we talked about alphas, the thing we said was it's the fantasy of the alpha is that the patriarchy can be tamed. I think the fantasy of the cinnamon / # roll is that the patriarchy does not have to be trained. They already come in, they're coming fully trained, but they're fully human. Right? Like, there's no way in which-- they have their feelings, they, they understand consent, like they help, you know, literal helpers around the home and whatever way. I mean, you know, maybe that's it. It's like taming versus training.

Sarah MacLean 49:00 / #
Or maybe I would go one step further maybe this fantasy is the patriarchy doesn't exist.

Jennifer Prokop 49:08 / #
They are still masculine.

Sarah MacLean 49:11 / #
Well, that doesn't mean that --it's not, Again, they're just not acid rain?

Andie Christopher 49:17 / #
It doesn't exist within this one human. It hasn't like it hasn't rotted that person to his core. You don't have to send them to therapy for 10 years before you can even talk to him.

Jennifer Prokop 49:28 / #
Yeah. Or that the Yeah, maybe that's right. The patriarchy has not ruined them.

Sarah MacLean 49:35 / #
No.

Andie Christopher 49:36 / #
Yeah, cuz like a lot of the ones you get you know, if you're just trolling on Tinder you're like, Oh, wow. Oh, wow, you're-- this is this is spoiled. I'm just so mean. I'm so mean. That that's why I'm single is because I mean. You're like, oh, your shirtless picture with like the, you know, sleeping tiger. Just show that you're dick is huge. That? That's rotted to the core. I'm not a cinnamon / # roll and not an alpha really either.

Sarah MacLean 50:09 / #
No Well that's the other thing right? There's this like, perception of alpha as incel. And like that ain't it either.

Andie Christopher 50:17 / #
So no, because an alpha wouldn't-- as opposed to an incel--an alpha would never tell like the heroine she's ugly in order to like, get her to like him, or to get her to care about...

Sarah MacLean 50:33 / #
Yeah, no negging allowed.

Andie Christopher 50:37 / #
Yeah, I think we solved it. You guys, I think.

Jennifer Prokop 50:40 / #
All right, fair.

Sarah MacLean 50:41 / #
Well, now Andie, you have a book coming out with a cinnamon / # roll hero.

Andie Christopher 50:46 / #
I do.

Sarah MacLean 50:47 / #
My favorite kind of heroine, the unlikable kind.

Andie Christopher 50:50 / #
She, so what Jen was saying earlier about like the sort of the cinnamon / # roll hero being A foil to a heroine and who has a bigger journey--. And so a lot of the people who've read early copies of "Not the Girl You Marry," which is out on November 12, have said, most people talk about the heroine, Hannah. And part of that is because I basically poured so much myself into that character. It's a version of the trope in "How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days" with the gender roles updated. The heroine is biracial, It's set in Chicago, which is a place that I've lived. And Jack is a cinnamon / # roll. He's always been the perfect boyfriend. He's a literal, honest to God, choir boy. And he like falls instantly in love with the heroine who is giving him the finger at a bar and He works for like a BuzzFeed like type publication. And he's like a video guy. And he does how- to's. And so his boss tasks him with how to lose a girl, and he, he, the only girl he's met of late is Hannah. And so he sets about losing her by doing all of the terrible things that guys who are spoiled by toxic masculinity do-- like sending dick pics, not being communicative, Trying to make her jealous, all of that dumb shit. And she's an event planner, and she wants to get into weddings, but she's very, very soured on romance and her boss is like, "you don't even believe in love." She's like, "Yes, I do. I'll show you. I just met a guy. I have a boyfriend." And so she like has to continue dating Jack to convince her boss that she's not completely soured on the concept of love. And then high jinks ensue. But her journey really is the more angsty emotional journey. She has to come to believe that she deserves love and belonging from not only jack but from her friends who have been trying to offer it to her. So she has to learn to make herself vulnerable. Jack, on the other hand has to learn to stand up for himself a little bit more and take into account what he wants and, you know, not just surrender to whatever like his girlfriend was. And in that way, he basically has to get Hannah to respect him in a way. Not that he's soft. He's like, I mean, he is soft, but he's not. He's a little like I described him as a cinnamon / # roll from the corner of the pan. He is crusty and

Jennifer Prokop 53:54 / #
that's actually amazing.

Sarah MacLean 53:56 / #
Perfect. Well, so not the girl you marry is out November 12. You can pre order it now from all your favorite bookstores. And we will put links to it in show notes. And Andie, what comes and after that? There's a companion.

Andie Christopher 54:21 / #
There's a second one. So they're both standalone. The second book, it's called "Not that Kind of Guy" has a character from the first book in it and it's actually a workplace romance between assistant State's Attorney in Chicago and her much younger intern who comes from an extremely wealthy, politically connected family. And she sort of just like thinks he's a twerp, like a very attractive twerp. Um, and he is madly in love with on first sight, which is a theme Because that's my id and they're working togethe

Sarah MacLean 55:04 / #
Fated Mates.

Andie Christopher 55:05 / #
It's Fated Mates. I love Fated Mates rope and yeah, high jinks ensue. There's there's a trip to Vegas you know there's a wedding. And yeah, so it's it's still more her journey because she has to like come to terms with the ending of her relationship with her childhood sweetheart and he really just, he needs to learn how to like stand up to his family. Um, so he's he's definitely another cinnamon / # roll because he just, you know, wants to take care of people and he you know, wants people to love him. Um, but he's, he's really hot.

Jennifer Prokop 55:45 / #
Well, that goes will Oh, I mean, that fixes a lot.

Sarah MacLean 55:48 / #
it goes without saying Yeah,

Andie Christopher 55:49 / #
yeah, no, I mean, I fall a little bit in love with him throughout the course of the book. Bridget, the heroine in then the second, in "not that kind of guy" is good friends with her, with the heroine-- becomes good friends with the heroine in the first book. And so there's also that friendship and a sense of found family, which is also it's an id for me in books.

Sarah MacLean 56:21 / #
Well, this is amazing. And I'm so glad that you texted me with your idea about why cinnamon / # rolls work. And I think because I do I mean like, I think you're right. I think Jen and I have been talking-- and not just us, we didn't invent this conversation. But for the last two years we've seen this sort of evolution and romance and it seems to be going so quickly. And there's this sort of sense of people are calling them you know, they're it's you know: is everything a rom com? What's happening with all these illustrated covers? What are we trying to say with these covers? What are we trying to say with the Books? And I think cinnamon / # rolls are somehow wrapped up in this conversation in a really interesting way. And I'm always interested, as you both know, and why things happen and what these books are doing the work that they're doing. And if it is about pure fantasy, first of all, oh, men do better.

Andie Christopher 57:24 / #
I mean, I think it's, I think it's about like convincing readers -- writing the book for me, "Not the Girl you Marry" is about convincing myself that love was possible in a world as broken as this. But my conclusion is, that thesis is, the guy has to be close to perfect. And I think it's like, we don't need to be in relationships. And so I think, why are we in relationships? And I think that's what I think that's what a lot of these books are asking. Like, what are we looking for in partnership? And why bother?

Jennifer Prokop 57:56 / #
You know, the thing I keep thinking about though, the fantasy part, I think is really powerful. And I think romance is really transformative, I think it's often very difficult to sort of, I think the best romances put both characters on a journey. And sometimes that journey happens together and sometimes the journey is a little stronger for one than the other. And I think what I really like about like I said in a cinnamon / # roll, in a male, female, where the cinnamon / # roll is the hero, what I really appreciate the most, is the sense that the heroine's journey is really highlighted. And that it his job to like showcase, what she is capable of and like make that possible. And that to me is--you know, not just that such a man exists but that you know, like self acculizatin, like finding yourself, and in a romantic relationship that your romantic partner makes you better and stronger. I mean, that's something we do all deserve. And I think that this is one really powerful way that romance shows that that can happen. I guess that's what I'd say.

Sarah MacLean 59:11 / #
Well, Andie, thank you so much for joining us.

Andie Christopher 59:15 / #
Thank you for having me. It was so much fun.

Sarah MacLean 59:17 / #
Andy, tell everybody where they can find you online.

Andie Christopher 59:21 / #
I am on I am on twitter @authorandieJ, and I'm on Instagram where you'll mostly see pictures of my dog. My Facebook is also @authorandieJ, and I there you'll see a lot of pictures of my dog. And you know, news about books. but I am I'm mostly shouting on Twitter.

Sarah MacLean 59:48 / #
Well, thank you for coming on Fated Mates. Everyone Next week, we'll be back with another deep dive read from season two, And you can find us on Twitter at Fated Mates or on Instagram at Fated Mates pod. You can buy Fated Mates pins from Kelly @resistancebuttons on Jen's website, jenreadsromance.com. Fated Mates is produced by Eric Mortensen and we will see you all next week. Enjoy your cinnamon / # rolls.

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