full-length episode, guest host, read along, S05 Jennifer Prokop full-length episode, guest host, read along, S05 Jennifer Prokop

S05.43: Twilight by Stephenie Meyer with Christina and Lauren

We go back to the OG DNA of the contemporary boom of the early 2010s today, with a read along of Stephenie Meyer’s Twilight, with fabulous fan fic writers turned brilliant romance novelists, Christina Lauren. Christina and Lauren talk about the way the books inspired them to write, helped them find a community, and their fated mates (each other). Jen talks about reading Twilight as a middle school teacher, and Sarah talks about never reading it at all…until now.

Within, we’ll talk about characters feeling big feelings, about how Twilight inspired romance novelists across the board, about third acts that go hard, and about how Alice is unquestionably the best character in the whole thing.

Get Christina and Lauren’s most recent book, The True Love Experiment, wherever books are sold, and this week from Bookshop.org, where you get free shipping and help your local independent bookstore.

If you want more Fated Mates in your life, you are welcome at our Patreon, which comes with an extremely busy and fun Discord community! Join other magnificent firebirds to hang out, talk romance, and be cool together in a private group full of excellent people. Learn more at patreon.com.

Show Notes

The Twilight Series

Sponsored By

Alyxandra Harvey, author of The Duchess Games,
available in print and audio, or with a monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited

and

Lumi Labs, creators of Microdose Gummies
use the code FATEDMATES for free shipping and 30% off your order

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S05, trailblazers Jennifer Prokop S05, trailblazers Jennifer Prokop

S05.30: Christine Feehan: Trailblazer

This week, we’re sharing our fantastic conversation with trailblazer Christine Feehan, an undeniable force in the rise of paranormal romance in the early 2000s. We discuss the genesis of her work, the way she builds her far-reaching worlds, her relationship to readers, her heroes, her sex scenes, and the long and winding path of her career.

Our conversation covers a lot of ground—personal, professional, paranormal and powerful, and we’re so grateful to Christine Feehan for making time for Fated Mates. You’re going to love this one, Firebirds.

Transcript

Next week, our first read along of 2023 is Tracy MacNish’s Stealing Midnight—we’ve heard the calls from our gothic romance readers and we’re delivering with this truly bananas story, in which the hero is dug out of a grave and delivered, barely alive, to the heroine. Get ready. You can find Stealing Midnight (for $1.99!) at Amazon, B&N, Kobo, or Apple Books.

Show Notes

Welcome to Christine Feehan, author of almost 100 romance novels. Her next book, Ghostly Game, is part of the Ghostwalker series and will be released May 2, 2023.

PEOPLE : editor Alicia Condon at Dorchester and now Kensington, and editor Cindy Hwang at Berkley.

BOOKS: Freckles and The Harvester by Gene Stratton Porter, Louisa May Alcott, The Bourne Identity by Robert Ludlum, Mary Janice Davidson, Gift of Fire and Gift of Gold by Jayne Ann Krentz, The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes, The Beekeeper’s Apprentice by Laurie R. King.

Books Mentioned This Episode

Sponsors

Goldie Thomas, author of The Rake and the Fake
Available now from Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Kobo, or Apple Books
and
Lumi Labs, creators of Microdose Gummies
Visit microdose.com and use the code FATEDMATES
for 30% off and free shipping on your order.

TRANSCRIPT

Christine Feehan 00:00:00 / #:
I'm not somebody who will ever cut and paste a love scene. It's a different couple and so, they react differently to each other and to whatever situation is going on. And I don't get embarrassed. It's just part of life, and I put that in. And part of the reason for that, and I know this is going to sound crazy, but so many girls that had had these terrible things happen to them would be very promiscuous, but they never felt anything. And I would say it's because you don't have a good partner. You're not in love with your partner. He's not doing anything for you, so I wanted them to know what good sex was. And writers should realize that the words they put down touch people. And you don't know who you're going to touch and you don't know what you say, what it's going to do to somebody.

Jennifer Prokop 00:01:11 / #:
That was the voice of Christine Feehan, paranormal author, extraordinaire, author of over 100 books and just a superstar of the genre and has been for decades.

Sarah MacLean 00:01:26 / #:
Her first book, Dark Prince, came out in 1999, right at the very beginning of the paranormal boom that we talk about. So, we talk to Christine about her life, how she came to romance, how she came to writing paranormals, and how she continues to write in this subgenre that we all love and wish there was more of.

Jennifer Prokop 00:01:50 / #:
Welcome to Fated Mates, everyone. I'm Jennifer Prokop, a romance reader and editor.

Sarah MacLean 00:01:55 / #:
And I'm Sarah MacLean. I read romance novels and I write them.

Jennifer Prokop 00:02:00 / #:
And without further ado, here's our conversation with Christine Feehan.

Sarah MacLean 00:02:06 / #:
Perfect. So thank you so much, Christine, for joining us. We're very excited, in large, part because it feels like you really came to romance in an interesting time and place and way. And so, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about how you found romance as a reader and then, again as a writer, or was it simultaneous?

Christine Feehan 00:02:32 / #:
Actually, it wasn't simultaneous at all. I started reading when I was very, very young, at a very young age and started writing when I was very young. The minute I could put sentences together, I started making up stories and I would write them down the minute I could, when I could put sentences together. And I think the first time I ever read a romance, I found these old, old books by Gene Stratton Porter, The Harvester and Freckles and those. And I realized there was kind of this romance thing going, and I found it really intriguing. I was probably 10 or even younger. I read books way over my head-

Sarah MacLean 00:03:32 / #:
Us too.

Jennifer Prokop 00:03:32 / #:
Us too. No problem.

Sarah MacLean 00:03:32 / #:
One of us.

Christine Feehan 00:03:37 / #:
And then, I started looking for anything I could read that might have some sort of a connection between a girl and a guy, because I wanted a happy ending or a happy anything involved in it. And so, that sort of started me down that path of looking for something happy in the book all the time, so that was sort of my intro to romance. And I found Louise May Alcott, of course, and read everything that she wrote, and I would read that to my grandmother whenever she was ill. I would sit and read to her, and then later, different ones that kind of inspired me for different reasons. Actually, The Bourne Identity, I liked the fact that they worked together. They were equal partners. People I think mostly saw the movie. They didn't really read that book the way it should have been read, but without her, he wouldn't have made it. She really was his equal partner in that book and I loved that. I really read that a couple of times to see how he made that happen and I really liked that. That was one of them.

Sarah MacLean 00:05:12 / #:
That doesn't surprise me at all, that the Bourne Identity is a text for you. I mean, it makes perfect sense now as a Feehan reader.

Christine Feehan 00:05:22 / #:
Yeah. And then, one really made an impact on me, probably that opened up the whole paranormal world for me, and I read it very early on was a Gift of Fire and Gift of Gold by Jayne Ann Krentz. And I forget how old I was when I read that, but all of a sudden, it was like it opened this whole world to me and I thought, "This is really what I want to write." Plus, I realized that my hero could be flawed and my villain could... I really like that the villain was rounded out so much.

00:06:11 / #:
And so, I started studying villains to figure them out. How did they write these villains and how did they become... You liked them and you didn't like... I mean, there were good things about them as well as bad things. How did they get to be who they were? So, I think they all had such an impact on me. One of the biggest impacts on me for all of my writing was Sherlock Holmes. I read Sherlock Holmes so many times that I literally could quote pages of Sherlock Holmes, of his work. And then, another writer was Laurie R. King, the Beekeeper's Apprentice. I thought that was such a fabulous take on... What she did, you would never expect her to put heroin with him and how she managed to make that work. That was an interesting pairing for me.

Sarah MacLean 00:07:24 / #:
So, at what point during this kind of reading, obviously, you've been an avid reader forever, did you start thinking, "I think I can maybe do this?"

Christine Feehan 00:07:36 / #:
I never did. I always wrote. I always wrote. I had hundreds of manuscripts under my bed. I'd write them and throw them, write them and throw them. I just wrote all the time. It was sort of a compulsion for me. I could not write, I had to write. I had so many stories in my head, I did not think about publishing them. Other people had movie stars and rock stars that they would scream and yell and, "Oh, my God. They're so wonderful. No, for me, it was writers. And so, I never looked at myself and thought I could ever be a writer like they could be, because I kind of worshiped those writers. They were amazing. My first job was in a library, and I would just read every book that I could in that library.

Jennifer Prokop 00:08:28 / #:
Living the dream. Well, it's, the other thing that's interesting though about that kind of list of books you named is I think one of the hallmarks of your style is an interest in the paranormal, but not necessarily... Even though the Carpathian series is very much about vampires, but like Jayne Ann Krentz, actually. Like telepathy and what the brain is capable of, so has that also always been interesting to you?

Christine Feehan 00:08:59 / #:
Absolutely. I research so much, and my belief really, is even with vampires, if you look at every society all over the world, you look at what their beliefs are going back hundreds of years, and all of them have something like that in their background. And where does it come from? You have to start thinking if every culture has something like that in it, where does it come from? And if every country pretty much has done these experiments with telepathy and with all these other things, why are they doing them? And after a while, you start getting these answers. You start hitting on things that, "Oh, this did work for somebody. This did work here. This did work there." And after so much research, you're catching up with the future things that they're already doing. Like my Ghost Walker series, I have a hard time keeping ahead of the game, and I research very hard to do that. And I always have primary sources, but it looks, when you write it, like it's way out there, but it isn't.

Sarah MacLean 00:10:29 / #:
Publishing wasn't even on the horizon, it sounds like. And I've done my research, I know you have a large family. So, can you give us a sense of Christine's world, at this point? How does it all fit together?

Christine Feehan 00:10:42 / #:
I taught martial arts for years and women's self-defense. Well, not just women's, I mean, I taught men too, but that was my world. I surrounded myself with that 26, 27 years of that. And I took in a lot of abused children, which you can see in my books and worked with unwed mothers and I had a complete whirl there. Writing was my escape, and when I took my kids to their gymnastics and their sports, I lived out in the country. I lived way out, away from things. So, I had to drive them and I would sit at their practices and write. That's what I did.

Sarah MacLean 00:11:40 / #:
Anybody with kids in sports has done exactly this.

Christine Feehan 00:11:43 / #:
Yeah. I didn't own a computer, I didn't own a laptop. There was no R.W.A., there was none of that. I didn't even know about R.W.A., I just wrote my stories and I did them for me. That was my escape. That was the one thing that I did for myself. And if the kids watched television at night, that's what I did, is I wrote. I wasn't interested in television. We played Dungeons and Dragons, and I told stories to the kids. That was our pastime and our fun together.

Sarah MacLean 00:12:26 / #:
So, at what point did it become... How did it happen? I mean, how did you become Christine Feehan published author?

Christine Feehan 00:12:36 / #:
The thing was that there came a time when I became very ill and my doctor said to me, "You cannot do martial arts anymore." And unfortunately, children want food.

Sarah MacLean 00:12:56 / #:
They do. Generally.

Christine Feehan 00:12:58 / #:
I convinced the, especially the boys, that they did not need to eat and the girls still wanted clothes. So, I had to find a way to feed them and to keep clothes on their back and to pay the bills. And I was working a couple of jobs, but it was minimum wage, and I was like, "Okay, this is not going to work." And my girlfriend said to me, "Send one of your books in." And I said, "It doesn't work like that." One, it was kind of terrifying. I didn't think I really wanted to send... The thought of giving away one of my stories was not a good idea to me, and I also told her they aren't taking anything with vampires in it. And at that point, I had been writing my Carpathian stories.

Sarah MacLean 00:13:56 / #:
That's so true. A paranormal was unsellable, we were told, in the nineties. And so, I guess I have two questions. One is, was it just that you thought, "I'm writing vampires and I'm not reading vampires? There are no vampires to be read. There was Anne Rice and now there is no one else?" Or did somebody tell you, "Oh, you can't sell vampires?"

Christine Feehan 00:14:23 / #:
Yes. I was told that... My friend, a girl girlfriend of mine was writing to sell, and she wanted to go to this thing in San Francisco that later I found out was an R.W.A.

Sarah MacLean 00:14:41 / #:
Sure.

Jennifer Prokop 00:14:42 / #:
Oh, Okay.

Christine Feehan 00:14:44 / #:
Which I didn't know. And she didn't want to go alone, so she asked me to go with her. And I said sure. And there were all these people in there, and I was a little embarrassed because they would say things like, "Well, I've been working on my office for four months, no book." And then somebody else said, "I've been working on my book for 14 years, and I've been working on my book for... I don't know how many..."

Sarah MacLean 00:15:12 / #:
God, this is the entire experience of R.W.A., honestly.

Christine Feehan 00:15:16 / #:
And this went on and on. And then, they get to me and I'm like, "I don't know. I have 300 manuscripts [inaudible 00:15:24 / #]." And a woman who was running the whole thing, later, she came up to me and she's like, "You need an agent." And I, at that time, was not interested in selling and I told her that. And I said, "Well, the latest thing I'm writing are..." She asked me what I was writing and I said romance. And I said, "But they have vampires in them." And she goes, "Oh, those aren't selling. You can't get an editor to even look at them."

Sarah MacLean 00:16:04 / #:
This week's episode of Fated Mates is sponsored by Goldie Thomas, author of the Rake and the Fake.

Jennifer Prokop 00:16:10 / #:
Sarah, this is a historical romance and it's a debut and the first in The Husband material series. This is a book that's really going to appeal to all of our listeners who love Tessa Dare and Joanna Shupe. And so, we have Charlotte, a seamstress employed at London's most renowned [inaudible 00:16:28 / #], and she is very aware of the class differences between her and the people that come in and partake of her services. And she runs a foul of Nicholas, a charming but badly behaved viscount, and his parents are insisting that he marry as soon as possible. After a maiden Manhattan mix up Nicholas's mother mistakes Charlotte, for this woman who she thinks Nicholas should marry, and there's just all of these shenanigans that happen. This book really deals with big class issues head on. And so, Charlotte, rather than being enamored with the excessive wealth that she is now seeing in real life is, instead like, "Wait, we really need to fix this." So Nicholas, Charlotte have to really figure out how they can be together given this huge difference between them.

Sarah MacLean 00:17:24 / #:
First of all, this sounds like a terrific read. I love it when historical romances really tackle class differences. And you can read The Rake and the Fake by Goldie Thomas right now in print or ebook, wherever you get your books. Thanks as always to Goldie Thomas for sponsoring the episode. Are the 300 manuscripts under your bed also paranormal adjacent?

Christine Feehan 00:17:53 / #:
No. They weren't at that time. No.

Sarah MacLean 00:17:56 / #:
So, how did we get to dark prints?

Christine Feehan 00:17:59 / #:
Well, at that time, I had quite a few children. My oldest son was in the Navy, and he came home to visit. I had two daughters who were pregnant, and he was helping out, building a little apartment for one of them. And he came home. He was with a friend, and he came home for lunch. He had a motorcycle, and I made him lunch and we were laughing and talking, and he went out the door and I said, "Did you put on sunscreen?" And he said, "Oh, mom, you're going to be saying that to me when I'm 90." And I laughed and said, "You bet I will." And he walked out the door, and five minutes later, maybe it was five minutes later, no more than that, the phone rang and my future son-in-law gets this call. He was on for if there was an accident. And his brother called him and said, "We've got a call. I'm coming to pick you up." And then, the neighbor called me and said, "I think your son was hit." And I said, "That's impossible."

00:19:26 / #:
But it was him and he didn't make it. And one of my daughters was... Both of them were due, and there was a birthday party I'd been planning the next day for my youngest child and a wedding I was planning. And it's a very interesting thing when you lose a child, and this is for any trauma that people suffer, life goes on all around you, it just keeps going. There's no way to stop it. You can't put the brakes on, and I had to keep planning a wedding. I had to keep two girls who were giving birth. I had a very small child who expected to have a birthday, and I didn't feel anything. I couldn't remember people talking to me, conversations.

00:20:45 / #:
And it lasted forever. It went on forever. I mean, I did everything I was supposed to do. I went to my kids' schools, I participated in everything that I was supposed to do, but I didn't feel anything. And it went on for so long and I thought, "I have to find a way back." And we always played Dungeons and Dragons together, and I always talked to him about vampires, made-up stories. And one of the things we talked about was, why would somebody want to give up your soul? And the more I thought about it, the more I thought, "If you have no feelings, if you can't feel anything and nothing can touch you..." And I honestly felt like I couldn't see in color anymore. Everything felt so dull. And I thought, "I have to find a way back to the people I love."

00:21:54 / #:
And that's when I started writing dark prints, and I started coming up with this idea that these men had to find that person that could make them feel again and see in color again. And that was my way back to... You never get over it. There's no way to get over it. But I've spoken to many, many people who've had many losses or had much trauma, and everybody has their own way of dealing with it. And that was mine. We shared something, it was Calvert's and I, we shared that. And my youngest son... He's not my youngest, but Brian, he always played Dungeon Masters with a Dragon. Anyway, he played with us and we would talk a lot about it together and eventually, it really helped me. And so, developing that world became very therapeutic for me. And so, that's how that world came about. And it's surprising when people read it. Some people have that, it has that same effect on them. They feel that same way, which I find interesting, that some people get it this, that have suffered loss, where other people have no idea.

Sarah MacLean 00:23:44 / #:
Yeah, but I imagine when a book comes like that and from such a place, it's impossible to imagine. First of all, it's all packed in there because when you write, that's how it goes, whatever you're living is in there. But also, I'm so moved by this story because the Carpathians are... That series is never-ending, right? It's 38 books now. And so, do you feel like every time you go back to them, that you're going back to a similar place you're mining that same love, that same world?

Christine Feehan 00:24:28 / #:
Sure. It's funny how grief will hit you at times, where it comes out nowhere. I mean, it's been a long time for my son. I've lost a granddaughter, I've lost a grandson and all of that is very difficult. You try very hard to, I don't know how to explain it, keep going as the world keeps going. But anybody who's lost parents, anybody, at times it just suddenly comes out of nowhere, and you don't know when it's going to happen.

00:25:23 / #:
But when I write, I can feel that connection, especially in the Carpathian world with Calvert, and it makes me feel very close to him again. And also, there's so many issues in those books, women's issues, miscarriages that women have. And over the years, with so many different friends and so many different young women that have had terrible things happen to them that I've dealt with through martial arts or through other things, I've been able to talk about those things. And then, had women be able to read about them, and then that helps them in their lives. So, I've been grateful to be able to have that opportunity when I no longer can do hands-on help.

Jennifer Prokop 00:26:32 / #:
So it's interesting to me too... Probably one of my favorite of your series is Torpedo Ink, and those are characters that are really steeped in trauma. And I mean, that's another thing that sort of ties your books together. People experience terrible loss or grief or trauma, and then this connection is like, how do they survive? Especially can they, through this, access almost parts of themselves, they didn't know that existed. So, when you talk about readers contacting you, is this something that... Like they write you letters, you get emails, how do you connect with readers who are also experiencing this world? Like the emotional... Your worlds are kind of terrible worlds, but people find each other in them. So, how do your readers come to you?

Christine Feehan 00:27:38 / #:
Well, okay, Torpedo Ink is actually my most difficult series to write. When I took in children, I found that boys were treated way differently than girls. When they're molested, they oftentimes are not given counseling. Sometimes they're rejected from their family. The fathers don't want them, and they often are like, especially if they're a little bit older, it's like, "Oh, hey, you should be happy," instead of... It's traumatizing for them, but nobody wants to even talk about it with a boy. And so, I promised myself that someday I was going to address that issue. And I didn't honestly realize when I started looking at files, what I was really getting myself into. Because you have to talk with professionals and you're looking at some file and you're reading this horrible thing that you don't even want to look at anymore. And then, you talk to a professional and you say, "All right, this happened to them.

00:28:59 / #:
What's going to happen to them as an adult?" And he's like, "Oh, he's not going to be normal. His sexual life is not going to be normal." So now, you're going to have to write about this and try to find a happy ending for him. Because to me, I want to make whoever's had anything close to that experience feel hope. That's what you're trying to do, is say, "There's hope for you. Don't give up." And most of the time I get letters. There's been a few times when somebody has come personally to me, when I'm at a convention or something, they've asked to meet with me, and I've talked to them. Most of the time it's a letter and 99% of the time, and it will start out, "Please continue to read this, but I was going to kill myself. And then, I read this book." And oftentimes, especially Torpedo Ink, I think, "I can't write another one of these. I just can't do it." And then, I don't know why I get a letter like that, and I think, "Oh, my God, Christine, now you're going to have to write..."

Jennifer Prokop 00:30:22 / #:
Keep doing it.

Christine Feehan 00:30:23 / #:
"Now you're going to have to write another one." And it's interesting because not everyone gets that those books are about trauma. They don't see it. They don't. And that's always interesting to me, that not everyone gets what the book is actually about. I try to put on there to be careful about reading it. There's triggers for people... But people sometimes just don't see that.

Sarah MacLean 00:30:55 / #:
One of the things that I keep coming back to as you're talking is Jen and I talk a lot on the podcast about how we bemoan the way paranormal has faded over the last decade. And one of the reasons why is because it feels like there seems to be so much more anger and confusion and frustration, and all the things that are happening in the world right now. Paranormal, in so many ways, makes us look at those traumatic or those dangerous or angry or wicked things and face them.

00:31:41 / #:
You said this is about hope, and we always talk about romance as the literature of hope. That is the promise. So, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about, as somebody who we really do think is without you, paranormal would not be here in the way that it is. How does paranormal... How did coming to paranormal and writing paranormal and building the sub-genre happen during that time? I mean, obviously, you told the remarkable story about how the Carpathians came to be, but you've never gone away. You've never left that paranormal world. Even when you do leave it, there's always a vibe, right?

Christine Feehan 00:32:29 / #:
Yeah. Well, because for me, I know that other people don't really believe so much in all those things, but I think the world is so big and there's so many interesting unsolved mysteries in it, and I can't stop doing research. I'm like the research nut, and I find everything so fascinating. And I don't necessarily... I know we use the word paranormal, but I always think there's so much out there. And so, to me, I just think maybe it's really all true, and we haven't caught up with it yet. So, to me, it's just extending my imagination and then, trying to find reality in it. And I try to put the book at least 80% facts. I mean, twisting those facts into my fictional world. And then, just a small amount of the paranormal so that when people read it, they're like, "Oh, this could happen. This could be." When I did Lightning Game, most of that was reality. I mean, it's amazing what they're doing with lightning, and you look at it and go, "Holy moly."

Sarah MacLean 00:34:07 / #:
So, could you talk a little bit about that paranormal? I mean, I'm using paranormal now, respecting what you just said, but at paranormal as a subgenre of romance. During that boom, where it just felt... I mean, it just felt like everyone was writing these kind of big, expansive worlds with these heroes who were just larger than life and these heroines who just could match them step for step. What was going on there? Are you able to look back on that time and go, "Oh, this is why we were all doing this thing together." Or, "This was why readers were really drawn to us?"

Christine Feehan 00:34:59 / #:
I think that different times call for different things. People are, at times, they need certain things in their lives, and they're looking for heroes and they're looking for things that make them happy. Unfortunately, I don't honestly know what's happening right now, where everybody seems so angry and weird with each other. It's so strange to me. I don't understand that, but I'm getting kind of old. But I think everybody's imagination was really big and everybody at that time really accepted it. And they went all out and readers were like, "Hey, what do you have for me? I'm willing to read it." And they went for it. So, I think that was a really good time, and people were in a good place. And as things started to crumble, the economy and whatever, then I think that things sort of went downhill. And also, when you get too many people doing the same thing, it runs out. You can only do so many of the same types, and then it gets... There's a lot of repetition. And maybe towards the end, there might have been, I don't know.

Sarah MacLean 00:36:50 / #:
Were there other writers who you were friendly with, who you were in your group, were inspiring you during that time?

Christine Feehan 00:37:02 / #:
Not in my group. I had a very core group, but I will tell you, I read Mary Janice Davidson, and she made me laugh so hard. I am not the best at writing humor. When I read her, I would laugh so hard and I would just about die. She made me laugh so much. There were certain ones that you'd pick them up and to be honest, I didn't read much in my own genre because I didn't want to step on somebody's voice, but I couldn't help it with her. Every time she had a book come out, I'd go get it, because she just was so funny. But like I say, I don't write very humorously, and I try, but my humor falls flat.

Jennifer Prokop 00:38:01 / #:
So, did you join R.W.A., you mentioned, sort of not knowing what it was? Was that something that-

Christine Feehan 00:38:09 / #:
I had to, at one point, because my house... I was with Dorchester at the time when I first... They were the only ones who would read my book and then they bought it.

Sarah MacLean 00:38:19 / #:
Who was your editor there?

Christine Feehan 00:38:21 / #:
Alicia Condon. Alicia Condon. Okay. Okay. And she was wonderful. She was.

Sarah MacLean 00:38:26 / #:
And she acquired you at Dorchester?

Christine Feehan 00:38:28 / #:
She did, yes. And people always said things about Dorchester, but they gave new authors a chance when nobody else would.

Sarah MacLean 00:38:37 / #:
And took such risk in terms of the content of the books. I mean, I was saying to Jen before we started that one of my very favorite... I write historicals, and one of my very favorite historicals is The Madness of Lord Ian Mackenzie, which, the hero... It's such a different kind of historical, and I just can't... I think it benefited from Dorchester.

Christine Feehan 00:39:03 / #:
I think that they did a really good job at getting people seen when nobody else would even look at them. Not one other house would've... Well, they wouldn't...

Sarah MacLean 00:39:17 / #:
Sure. Vampires, right?

Christine Feehan 00:39:19 / #:
Right, they wouldn't look at it. And she did, and she picked it up, so that was pretty amazing of her to do that.

Sarah MacLean 00:39:29 / #:
And then, you were with Dorchester until Dorchester folded?

Christine Feehan 00:39:34 / #:
I was already being looked at by Berkley. Cindy Wong had already made an offer for me, and I've been with her ever since. She's been my editor for years and years and years. So yeah, I was already with Berkley at that point, but they had a bunch of my books still.

Sarah MacLean 00:39:58 / #:
Because you're such a fast writer. Now, were you build... Now, how was that working? Were you pulling things out from under the bed or...

Christine Feehan 00:40:06 / #:
No, no.

Sarah MacLean 00:40:07 / #:
The bad manuscripts are still under the bed.

Christine Feehan 00:40:09 / #:
No, because the ones under the bed were not polished and they weren't that good.

Sarah MacLean 00:40:15 / #:
I don't believe it, but okay.

Christine Feehan 00:40:16 / #:
No, they're not that good.

Sarah MacLean 00:40:20 / #:
So, because you're so prolific as well, what is it? Almost a hundred books, is that right?

Christine Feehan 00:40:27 / #:
Yes, very close to a hundred books.

Sarah MacLean 00:40:30 / #:
And so, you are really... I mean, you still writing really quickly. You're writing at a self-published pace.

Christine Feehan 00:40:39 / #:
I actually am slowing down a little bit so I can go visit occasionally. Go see my mom, and not my mom, my sisters, occasionally. I have a lot of sisters.

Sarah MacLean 00:40:53 / #:
And do you feel like... You have a big fam... You have a large number of children, a lot of sisters. Do you feel like that those kinds of relationships are part of why you have been drawn so much to Pax? I mean, big communities of characters.

Christine Feehan 00:41:13 / #:
Yeah, I've always loved being in a big family.

Jennifer Prokop 00:41:18 / #:
This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by Lumi Labs, creators of microdose gummies.

Sarah MacLean 00:41:24 / #:
So Lumi Labs, our old friends, you've heard us talk about microdosing and the concept of microdosing before on the podcast. It's commonly associated with psychedelics, with wellness, performance enhancement and creativity. If you're looking to consider microdosing, you can do a quick Google search or you can go to microdose.com and learn more about how taking a microdose gummy might help you just with a little bit of mood enhancement with maybe helping you sleep, which is what they do for me.

Jennifer Prokop 00:41:57 / #:
For me too.

Sarah MacLean 00:41:58 / #:
Pain, anxiety. Eric takes them for creativity and a general kind of joyfulness across the day. He said to me the other day, "You know what the thing is about these gummies? You take one and you just like, an hour and a half later, just feel like, "I feel like I'm in a good mood."

Jennifer Prokop 00:42:17 / #:
Yes. And listen, we all need that these days. If they didn't put me to sleep, they would definitely help me feel like I was in a good mood. Anyway, microdosing is available nationwide, and we have all tried these gummies, and we think you might enjoy them too, if they're something you're interested in.

Sarah MacLean 00:42:37 / #:
So, you can go to microdose.com and use the code Fated Mates to get 30% on your first order. They have all different kinds of flavors you can try. I'm a particular fan of cotton candy. Lately, I also like one that's orange flavored, so you should try, check it out, give it a try. And thanks, as always, to Lumi Labs for sponsoring this week's episode. Another interesting hallmark of your career is that you have several, very long-running series that you're essentially writing concurrently. And so, this is unusual. A lot of people will start and finish a series and you have a bunch that just are kind of continuing. So, what's your process for deciding what's next, keeping it all straight? That seems like a huge job.

Christine Feehan 00:43:40 / #:
It's very strange, my brain, how it works. A character will come to me and say, "I want my story told." And I can't write... I couldn't write two Carpathian stories in a row because I'd be bored with that world. So, I write that story and then, while I'm writing that story, all of a sudden, another character from another world will jump into my head and start pushing at me. And I have tell it to be quiet. Like, "It's not your turn yet. Wait till I'm finished." And then, that one will will... A lot of times now, because I'll have a contract and they'll want the stories in a certain order order. And so, I had to train my brain to say, "It's going to be like this." And if they mess up the order on me, it's actually difficult now, because my brain would be like, "We have to do it this way."

Jennifer Prokop 00:44:48 / #:
I'm not going to get the titles right, but the head of Torpedo Ink was the husband of the end of the series with all the sisters?

Christine Feehan 00:45:00 / #:
Right, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Prokop 00:45:00 / #:
So, when characters intersect in that way, is that a surprise to you?

Christine Feehan 00:45:07 / #:
Because I wasn't planning on publishing Torpedo Ink. I wasn't going to. And when I had that in there, Cindy said to me, "Do you have these other characters..."

Sarah MacLean 00:45:21 / #:
We have this guy.

Christine Feehan 00:45:23 / #:
And I said, "Well, yeah, but I don't think they're something that I could publish because it's a pretty raw, edgy series." And she said, "Well, let me read it." And that's kind of how that ended up getting published.

Sarah MacLean 00:45:40 / #:
We've had several people on who are edited by Cindy, and it sounds like she is one of those editors who is willing to just again, take the risk with you and trust you to move forward.

Christine Feehan 00:45:55 / #:
She will take a risk. Yeah, she will. She's not-

Sarah MacLean 00:45:56 / #:
That's amazing.

Christine Feehan 00:45:57 / #:
She's pretty fearless, and she's not afraid. If I went to her and said, "I'd like to publish this." And it's like out there, she would say, "Go ahead and write it. Let's take a look at it."

Jennifer Prokop 00:46:14 / #:
Have there been other editors, publishers, I don't know, art directors?

Sarah MacLean 00:46:21 / #:
Oh, wait, can we talk about those early covers, first of all?

Jennifer Prokop 00:46:24 / #:
Oh, yeah.

Sarah MacLean 00:46:25 / #:
So, I'm so fascinated but... Listen, I could talk about romance novel covers all day every day. In fact, Jen will tell you, I kind of do, but those early covers, so that first cover of Dark Prints is a clinch. It's like a historical clinch, presumably because no one knew what the heck to do with these books, right?

Christine Feehan 00:46:45 / #:
Right.

Sarah MacLean 00:46:45 / #:
And then, can you walk us through... Are you able to remember or recall how paranormal became... How it started to look the way it did? Why we moved away from those clinches?

Christine Feehan 00:47:01 / #:
Well, there were funny, funny things that happened with some of them.

Sarah MacLean 00:47:05 / #:
I love it.

Christine Feehan 00:47:07 / #:
It was Jacque's book and they put him on the cover, and I said, "Well, this cover his spine." Except that he had, or she had red hair. It was a clinch cover, so they washed the cover red.

Sarah MacLean 00:47:32 / #:
Oh, my gosh. The whole cover?

Christine Feehan 00:47:34 / #:
The whole cover. So he is like sunburned. I called him Lobster Boy after that.

Sarah MacLean 00:47:41 / #:
What book is this?

Christine Feehan 00:47:44 / #:
It was Dark Desire.

Sarah MacLean 00:47:45 / #:
I'm looking it up right now.

Christine Feehan 00:47:48 / #:
So, he literally has... He's red and so-

Sarah MacLean 00:47:53 / #:
I think I know what this is.

Christine Feehan 00:47:55 / #:
I did. I called him Lobster Boy. So, every time anybody would refer to him, I would think, in my head, I'd turn it around and he'd be Lobster Boy.

Sarah MacLean 00:48:03 / #:
Oh, no.

Christine Feehan 00:48:06 / #:
And my girlfriend, one of my friends, she just loved him. She called him Pooky face. She'd be like, "Don't you call my-"

Sarah MacLean 00:48:14 / #:
He's orange.

Christine Feehan 00:48:16 / #:
Yes. He is.

Sarah MacLean 00:48:19 / #:
Everybody look down in your podcast right now. We'll show it to you. Yeah, he's orange.

Christine Feehan 00:48:24 / #:
Yeah.

Sarah MacLean 00:48:26 / #:
How funny.

Christine Feehan 00:48:27 / #:
Yeah. And here's the other thing that happened with that book. This is just a little... So, it starts off with, there was blood in the River of It Running or something, the first sentence. And I had worked on that first chapter a million ways, and he's insane. I mean, when he comes awake, he's totally insane. And if you don't know what happened to him, you would hate that guy because he's an ass. So, you have to start out with him and knowing what happened to him. And I think I wrote that first chapter 40 Different Ways. Well, when they got the book, they're like, "We have to change this first chapter because they have to know that it's a romance, and you can't start out this way." I'm like, "No, I'm not changing it."

Sarah MacLean 00:49:25 / #:
How funny.

Christine Feehan 00:49:27 / #:
I go, "Toss the book." "We're not tossing the book."

Sarah MacLean 00:49:36 / #:
Amazing. No. And then, when we first got on with you and you said, "Well, I don't know. Am I a trailblazer?" Christine, Christine...

Christine Feehan 00:49:43 / #:
Here's why.

Sarah MacLean 00:49:44 / #:
This is how paranormals begin, now with the heroes in trauma and then, you just sort of ride the wave until you get to the kissing parts.

Christine Feehan 00:49:54 / #:
I finally just said, "You know that Clinch cover? They're going to know it's a romance."

Sarah MacLean 00:50:00 / #:
Right, exactly. I think they'll know. So, at what point did it feel like... I mean, this is obviously a market thing. This is how the sausage is made a little, but when does everybody realize, "Oh, paranormals need a different look"? Is that just because it started to become... So the market just became more exciting?

Christine Feehan 00:50:21 / #:
I really think when I moved over to Berkley, I think that the marketing people at Berkley kind of-

Jennifer Prokop 00:50:32 / #:
Figured that out.

Christine Feehan 00:50:33 / #:
Yeah, they were the ones. For me, for my team, they were the ones who kind of said, "Okay, we're going to do this differently." Interesting enough, in Germany, my books, all of them, even the Ghost Walkers, all of them have bats on the cover.

Jennifer Prokop 00:50:57 / #:
Okay. Sure, sure.

Sarah MacLean 00:50:57 / #:
It's a can of soup, right?

Jennifer Prokop 00:51:00 / #:
I know. I'm like, "Does Saphian mean Bat and German?" I don't know.

Sarah MacLean 00:51:03 / #:
That's funny.

Christine Feehan 00:51:04 / #:
Maybe. What else?

Sarah MacLean 00:51:05 / #:
Yeah.

Christine Feehan 00:51:07 / #:
They do very well but...

Sarah MacLean 00:51:10 / #:
Hey, listen. If it ain't broke, right?

Jennifer Prokop 00:51:14 / #:
You can tell I really love your books, but one of the things Sarah and I have talked about a lot is romance comes and goes, right? The way that what's popular as a trope, what kind of sub-genres are popular, what kinds of hero archetypes are popular. These things change over time. And right now, the romance hero has changed a lot, but I don't necessarily think that your romance heroes has have changed a lot. So, how do you... I don't know. Do you feel the push of market forces, or it doesn't matter, your readers are...

Christine Feehan 00:51:57 / #:
I don't look at trends and I don't look at that kind of thing at all. I have to go with whatever I'm passionate about and I have to go with whatever character's in my head, and I just hope my readers will love the story and love the characters. I write the best book that I can. I try every single book to improve and give a better story and sometimes, I succeed. I do my best, but there is no way that I can write a story to the market. It's not going to happen. And I know that, so I don't even try.

Sarah MacLean 00:52:41 / #:
Well, what's amazing is you've made a career out of arguably not writing to market. You wrote vampires before vampires were cool. You moved to shifters before everyone else moved to shifters and it's amazing, the inspiration that you give writers is write your truth.

Christine Feehan 00:53:03 / #:
Well, the series that I'm doing, I know it's a bad thing to call it the murder series. I really shouldn't-

Sarah MacLean 00:53:10 / #:
Not for me.

Jennifer Prokop 00:53:13 / #:
I think that might be more to market than we'd like to admit, honestly.

Christine Feehan 00:53:17 / #:
Well, I got into that one because one of my daughters does a lot of climbing. She used to live in Bishop, which is up in the mammoth area near Yosemite. And she knows these women and all of them have these incredible stories. And they all became friends, and they would go climbing together, and I would listen to their stories of where they came from. And then, they have these insane jobs. And I was thinking, "Wow, this is amazing." And one day, they were telling me about this hike they'd gone on, and I thought, "what a perfect place for a serial killer." I'm like, "Okay..." They were all going to go on a hike together and camping. And I said, "Okay, girls, I really want you to start looking around for a place where a serial killer might be hanging out, ready to-"

Jennifer Prokop 00:54:20 / #:
Just report back.

Sarah MacLean 00:54:20 / #:
It's totally fine.

Christine Feehan 00:54:24 / #:
So, after that, I started having the girls, every time they go someplace, do that for me. And the next thing I know, they're taking tasers with them.

Sarah MacLean 00:54:34 / #:
I was going to say they stop hiking. They're done with that now.

Christine Feehan 00:54:38 / #:
I kind of ruined it for them. We're talking murder every time we go to the restaurants.

Sarah MacLean 00:54:48 / #:
So, one of the questions that we often ask is, what's the hallmark of a Christine Feehan romance? When a reader picks up a Christine Feehan novel, one of your nearly-100 of them, what do they know they're going to get?

Christine Feehan 00:55:06 / #:
Well, for sure, they're going to get a happy ending. Absolutely sure they're going to get happy ending. I write, always, about, I think, hope and about finding your own version of family. It doesn't matter what the setting is or what the drama that has been... It's about... Or what I want to say genre, but of course, it's romance, but it could be military, it could be suspense, it could be anything. But set in that, there has to be that hope and the finding of family and that happy ending. That's what you're going to get. That's what you're going to find.

Sarah MacLean 00:56:04 / #:
And we didn't talk about this, but it's also going to be super sexy.

Jennifer Prokop 00:56:08 / #:
Oh, yeah.

Sarah MacLean 00:56:09 / #:
And I feel like we should sort of touch on this because I do feel like for me, those early Feehans were-

Jennifer Prokop 00:56:20 / #:
And the late ones.

Sarah MacLean 00:56:21 / #:
No, no. I mean, for me though, Sarah, when I stumbled upon Christine Feehan in the bookstore, it felt like I'd never read anything like this before. And I wonder, can you talk a little bit about that, about really bringing sex to the genre in a lot of ways? I feel like there was, not that it didn't exist before, but there's something about the Feehan sensuality that is different.

Christine Feehan 00:56:53 / #:
Well, to me, the characters are really real. People have asked me that before. I'm not in the book at all. When I'm writing that book, it really is the characters. I don't plot out the book. So the characters are so real to me that I know everything about them from the time they were little. And so, when they're moving through that story, it's all about them. And they're the ones that are having sex or not having sex or whatever's happening to them.

00:57:33 / #:
And so, I'm not somebody who will ever cut and paste a love scene. You're not going to get the same one because they're always... It's a different couple. And so, they react differently to each other and to whatever situation is going on. And I step back so far when I'm writing that I'm not there, and really, it's almost plays out like it's reality for them. And so, to me, it's just part of life. I don't get embarrassed. It's just part of life, and I put that in. And part of the reason for that, and I know this is going to sound crazy, but so many girls that had had these terrible things happen to them would be very promiscuous, but they never felt anything. And I would say, "It's because you don't have a good partner. You're not in love with your partner. He's not doing anything for you." So, I wanted them to know what good sex was, and if you have a book that you can read when no one's around and you can see what good sex is, then it's... When you have a partner, and I can tell you, this is another thing I get lots of letters.

Sarah MacLean 00:59:16 / #:
Oh, interesting. I believe that.

Christine Feehan 00:59:20 / #:
I even had letters from guys who told me they would not cheat on their wives, military guys, because they realized that their wife was too important to them. And I mean, it's amazing. And writers should realize that the words they put down touch people. And you don't know who you're going to touch, and you don't know what you say, what it's going to do to somebody. I mean, when I write something, I don't know who it's going to affect. But I deliberately did put sex in my books for that reason, because I wanted people to know there is good sex. No, that there is, and you should feel something.

Sarah MacLean 01:00:19 / #:
And I love the way you talk about it, as you are so distant from the book itself, you are just writing the book. And I think that's really what a Feehan... That's why it feels so different as a reader or did. In those early books, they felt transcendent because they did feel intense and passionate in that way, that sort of private way.

Christine Feehan 01:00:46 / #:
Yeah. Now, when I started the Leopard series, that was kind of my nod to erotica. Yeah, erotic wasn't a huge, huge thing then. Now, it kind of is, but it wasn't at the time. And so, I was like, "Okay, I'm going to just do a little bit of that." And that was before to Torpedo Ink. And so, I thought, "Oh, I'll put that in my leopard one because it made sense to go there." But then, I started writing Torpedo Ink and I'm like, "Uh-oh, now I've got two."

Jennifer Prokop 01:01:23 / #:
Yeah. That's hot, everybody. I'm okay with it.

Sarah MacLean 01:01:29 / #:
No, the Leopard series. I mean, I remember coming to the Leopard series and just feeling like nobody had ever done anything like that before.

Jennifer Prokop 01:01:38 / #:
Yeah. So, I think the question we love to end with is... So, it's kind of a two-part question, I guess. One is, there a book that you hear about over and over again from readers? And then, the question we have for you is there a book of yours that's your favorite, the one that you are most proud of?

Christine Feehan 01:01:58 / #:
Well, the one I hear about all the time from Readers is Dark Celebration. Every single person wants me to write that book over and over and over.

Jennifer Prokop 01:02:11 / #:
They can just reread it. They can reread it. Reread it, everybody.

Sarah MacLean 01:02:13 / #:
It slaps every time.

Christine Feehan 01:02:16 / #:
It's so funny.

Sarah MacLean 01:02:17 / #:
And why do you think that is?

Christine Feehan 01:02:19 / #:
I think because it revisits characters they love.

Sarah MacLean 01:02:22 / #:
Yes.

Christine Feehan 01:02:24 / #:
I think that's it.

Sarah MacLean 01:02:25 / #:
It's reader Karen Feeding, right?

Christine Feehan 01:02:28 / #:
So, I think that that's it. What book would I be the most proud of?

Sarah MacLean 01:02:35 / #:
Or the one that's most special to you? People take it in different ways.

Christine Feehan 01:02:41 / #:
Probably the one that's the most special to me is Dark Prince, for obvious reasons. That would probably be the one, I would say.

Sarah MacLean 01:02:49 / #:
Well, thank you for being with us today.

Jennifer Prokop 01:02:51 / #:
This was incredible. Thank you so much. Thank you for joining us and it's really an honor.

Christine Feehan 01:02:59 / #:
I really enjoyed being with you. Thank you for inviting me.

Sarah MacLean 01:03:06 / #:
Every single one of these goes differently.

Jennifer Prokop 01:03:10 / #:
Yeah, it's amazing. I think the thing I liked about our conversation with Christine is how personal it felt. I mean, obviously, not just the stories that she shared, but just you can really feel how reading and writing and thinking about hope and happily ever afters is really something she spent her entire life on. And there's a way that I think that just really came through in that conversation. It was so fascinating.

Sarah MacLean 01:03:39 / #:
Absolutely. She talked a few times about how readers have approached her and talked to her about how special her books are to them and how moving they are and how inspirational and important they are to readers. And every time she told them, I had the same thought, which was, "I think it must be really wonderful to have a conversation, a personal conversation with Christine." She feels like she's present in the moment the whole time, and it was really special.

Jennifer Prokop 01:04:14 / #:
I get very distracted by people. I feel like even in my classroom, I'm kind of constantly doing 800 things at once, but you really feel that she probably is such a great mom and a grandma. You know what I mean? Like the attention that she really gives and the way that she talks about... I mean, I'm fascinated too by people who say, "I am a writer. I've always been a writer. I love writing. There's 300 books under the bed."

Sarah MacLean 01:04:41 / #:
A Compulsive Writer. I love that. The sort of, "I would've written with or without publishing." I loved that story about how she got dragged up to an R.W.A. meeting and everybody was like, "Well, I've been working on the same thing for a while." And she's like, "I have 300 books, but I never intended to do this."

Jennifer Prokop 01:05:00 / #:
I also think that that goes hand in hand then with not really worrying about "the market". So, when you are writing in that way and you've had success writing in that way, and you've had readers respond to you in that way, then I think it's really powerful to see someone stay the course.

Sarah MacLean 01:05:24 / #:
I feel like if you are out there right now and you are looking at a manuscript and you think it won't sell you because of the market, hearing Christine talk must be so important and inspirational for you, because we've talked a lot about... We've talked to people like Jayne Ann Krentz, I loved, as she mentioned, Jayne. We've talked about Jayne... When we talked to Jayne, when we talked to J.R. Ward, we've heard the story of people who change genres because, as J.R. Ward puts it, they were fired or it just wasn't selling, so they pivoted. And we've talked so much about how writers have to be nimble to thrive in the genre. And I think what's fascinating is that Christine is nimble and she is full of ideas and shifting and changing, but she stays really true to her brand and to her point of view. And I think that's a really valuable thing to hold onto right now, especially, as we see romance really grappling with those big questions about what comes next and have we oversaturated and these kind of big issues.

Jennifer Prokop 01:06:40 / #:
We didn't have a chance to ask her. She has re-released some of her romances.

Sarah MacLean 01:06:45 / #:
Oh, we meant to ask.

Jennifer Prokop 01:06:46 / #:
I know, as a sort of-

Sarah MacLean 01:06:48 / #:
And then, we got distracted.

Jennifer Prokop 01:06:49 / #:
Author's cuts. With the rise of self-publishing, I think there's a way in which... There's always a market for something. There's always a small dedicated group of readers who are looking for whatever it is that you are selling. It's traditional publishing that has... It can't quite have that leeway to just be like, "Yes." And so, it's really interesting to hear her talk about that Dorchester imprint taking a chance on her and the difference that made. And it's funny because that is not a... I mean, Dorchester, I feel like is not a name I've even ever heard spoken about before in romance.

Sarah MacLean 01:07:36 / #:
I mean, it's really fascinating because I hadn't thought of Dorchester until-

Jennifer Prokop 01:07:42 / #:
We were prepping.

Sarah MacLean 01:07:42 / #:
I was doing research. We were prepping for this episode. You guys, these are the only episodes we actually prep for. We do actually do research before we talk to these people because we are trying to get them to think we're intelligent and so, we know what we're doing. But no, I mean, Dorchester... And now, of course, I want to go back and look a little more at Dorchester. But I was thinking about our conversation with Radcliffe, when we were talking about how these small presses were really the places where big adventures were happening in romance. And obviously, for Radcliffe and for E.E. Ottoman, that was a different kind of thing, that was happening because queer presses had to publish queer books because traditional publishers weren't doing that. But paranormal, I think about those digital-only presses, again, those kind of Ellora's Cave and Sam Haynes and those places that were taking big risks. And so, it doesn't surprise me that one of the mothers of paranormal came up through a place that doesn't exist anymore.

Jennifer Prokop 01:08:56 / #:
This is something I don't... I don't know that I've ever heard any author explicitly state as clearly, which is when you write from a place... When she told that, I mean, heartbreaking story of her son's death, that somehow there are some readers who can plug into that and see a, I don't know, see themselves in that too. And I think that's one of the things, we talk so much about romance being about the genre of hope, about feelings. Romance is about feelings, but it's our feelings as readers too. And I think that this is something that I was really impressed at how clear-eyed it felt like she was about that relationship. If I'm writing from this place, it's going to find the readers in that place.

Sarah MacLean 01:09:55 / #:
And I also think there is... Talk about a fearlessness in terms of character and theme, because she really does write about trauma. And maybe we'll put in the show notes a link to the discussion that Jen and Adriana Herrera have had about writing trauma and how romance and trauma kind of do go hand in hand a lot. But it's interesting because I think writing trauma is a thing that we are talking about a lot in the industry without talking about it, really having conversations about how you put these things on the page so that characters and writers and readers can see it in a raw way. I think she even used that word, raw. And these books are not for the faint of heart. They are rough reads, and she is writing into that space in a way that I think a lot of us are afraid to do. And I think it's because she clearly has seen it, she's faced it. And I loved every minute of that conversation.

Jennifer Prokop 01:11:19 / #:
Romance gives me so much. But when I kind of interact with someone who has the same root causes, and I've talked about this before. I started reading romance after my parents got divorced. The pain of that was the only thing that made me feel hope and better, was reading romance, that there are people out here who have also gone through painful things and they find a way to love each other. And so, it really is interesting, I think, for me, when you talk to someone who, I don't know, talk about the branches of the romance tree. It feels like we were planted in the same ground.

Sarah MacLean 01:12:01 / #:
Yeah. Yeah. Gosh, that was a very cool conversation. I mean, I should have expected it to be, but...

Jennifer Prokop 01:12:10 / #:
A lot of our trailblazers were really pushing for, "Tell us the story of publishing. Tell us your story through that journey." And that's not what her story was about, and I loved hearing it. It was amazing.

Sarah MacLean 01:12:21 / #:
I'm so inspired every time.

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S05.07: Spooky Stuff! Halloween Romance

It’s spooky season and that means we’re reading spooky stuff! We recommend some of our favorite recent witches and demons and incubii and ghosts and vampires and others…and then we try to get to the bottom of why paranormal romance and monster romance doesn’t feel like halloween romance to but these books do? This episode has it all: celebrity witch talk, a welshman named Rhys who isn’t the one you’re thinking of, a peek into Sarah’s past that reveals a painting that just might have installed one of her buttons…she had a beer before we recorded, so stuff happens! This one’s all treat, no trick…but headphones in, y’all. This one isn’t for the kids.

Thanks to Terri Green, author of The Swordmaster’s Daughter and Alyxandra Harvey, author of How to Marry a Viscount, for sponsoring the episode.

Our next read along is Claire Kent’s HOLD. It’s a prison planet romance, so…you know…enter at your own risk. Get it at Amazon or in Kindle Unlimited.

Show Notes

Spooky Shit Nitro Stout isn’t a brand, it’s a process.

Although we’ve never done a Halloween episode before, we did have a monster romance interstitial in season 4 with guest Jenny Nordbak. Also, all of season 1, basically.

We came up with a new rule for what makes something a paranormal, which is it’s about whether or not the main characters are immortals or humans. Or, you know, the patriarchy.

And now time for a celebrity gossip interlude: Are Gisele Bündchen & Olivia Wilde witches? It's possible. It has something to do with altars & healing stones, [the Don’t Worry Darling controversy], Jason Sudeikis under a car, and Nora Ephron’s salad dressing.

We have two more Fated States phonebanks! Register here for Oct 29 at 3 eastern to Kentucky for Charles Booker, and Nov 5 at 3 eastern to Pennsylvania for John Fetterman.

Did someone mention a Welshman named Rhys?

Gather round and look at the painting The Nightmare by Henry Fuseli. Here’s a cool explainer about the significance of the painting.

As of Oct 25, 2022, the United States has 1,090, 632 dead from Covid. Worldwide, at least 7.5M people have died. Get boosted. Wear a mask.

 

Books Mentioned This Episode

Sponsors

This week’s episode of Fated Mates is sponsored by:

Alyxandra Harvey, author of How to Marry a Viscount,
available at Amazon.

Visit alyxandraharvey.com

and

Terri Green, author of The Swordmaster’s Daughter,
available at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Kobo, or Apple Books

Visit terrigreenauthor.com

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S04.48: J. R. Ward: Trailblazer

The final Trailblazer of Season 4 is a very excellent one—we’re welcoming JR Ward to Fated Mates! Best known as the author of The Black Dagger Brotherhood (a series that blooded Jen), JR began her career writing contemporary romances under the name Jessica Bird before turning to the vampires the romance world adores. In this episode, we talk about the twists and turns of her early career, about the influence of her mother and other powerful women in her life, about the business of being JR Ward, about her process of writing the Black Dagger Brotherhood, and about her relationship to her characters.

We hope you enjoy this conversation as much as we did, and we are so grateful to JR Ward for spending some time with us.

Thanks to Avon Books, publishers of Beverly Jenkins’s To Catch a Raven, Blackstone Publishing, publishers of Nora Zelevansky’s Competitive Grieving, and Alyxandra Harvey, author of How to Marry a Duke, for sponsoring the episode. Stay tuned at the end of the episode for an audio excerpt of Competitive Grieving.

Next week, we finish out Season 4 as is traditional — with a deep dive episode on Sarah’s summer release, Heartbreaker! Get it at Amazon, Apple Books, Barnes & Noble, Kobo, at your local indie, or signed and with special swag (and a Fated Mates sticker!) from her local indie, WORD in Brooklyn!

Show Notes

Welcome J.R. Ward, author of the Black Dagger Brotherhood, a series of paranormal romances. She also wrote category romance under the name Jessica Bird.

We did a deep dive of JR Ward's Dark Lover in Season Two. Listen here.

People Mentioned: editor Hannah Braaten, publisher Jennifer Bergstrom, publicist Andrew Nguyen, editor and publisher Kara Cesare.

Authors Mentioned: Sherilyn Kenyon, Laurel K. Hamilton, Christine Feehan, Kresley Cole, Nora Roberts, Kristen Ashley, Christopher Rice, and Gena Showalter.

Books Mentioned This Episode

Sponsors:

This week’s episode of Fated Mates is sponsored by:


Avon Books, publishers of Beverly Jenkins’s To Catch a Raven, available at
Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo, and your local indie.
Visit beverlyjenkins.net

and

Blackstone Publishing, publishers of Nora Zelevansky’s Competitive Grieving,
available at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, and Kobo.
Visit norazelevansky.com

and

Alyxandra Harvey, author of How to Marry a Duke,
available at Amazon.
Visit alyxandraharvey.com

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S04.31: Vampire Romance Novels

At the request of Instagram, we’re talking Vampires today! We’re doing some deep cuts, returning to Kresley Cole for a minute or two, and then digging into worldbuilding, morality chain, why these books lend themselves to massive series, and ultimately…why we love these big toothy jerks. If you’re a paranormal reader, get your pencils ready — especially if you’re new to it, because we’re taking everyone way back to the beginnings of the subgenre!

Thanks to Kelly Cain, author of An Acquired Taste, and Alyxandra Harvey, author of How to Marry an Earl, for sponsoring the episode.

Our next read along is Julie James’s Something About You. Get it at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo, or at your local bookstore.

Show Notes

We’ve talked about vampires on past episodes: Kresley’s IAD vampires (Conrad is our favorite); Dark Lover by JR Ward; and last fall, we had Jenny Nordbak on for a monster interstitial.

If you’re in Brooklyn and looking for a bookstore that carries lots of PNR, try The Bookmark Shoppe.

In film, after 9/11, the rise of the anti/superhero to reconcile America's participation in a war. After the economic downturn, it was the rise of zombies to justify the way America was leaving poor people behind. And in this TikTok by Virgolikebeyonce, she suggests we're about to see media that reconciles our obsession with work/capitalism. We at FM have been noting a rise of the regular, blue-collar hero, which would track with this.

A hegemony explainer.

Tessa Bailey hit #1 on both the USAToday and New York Times bestseller lists with Hook, Line, and Sinker.

The Sherilyn Kenyon situation is truly weird.

Even eBooks can go out of print, for example, The Faustian Brothers series by Evie Byrne.

Our next read along is Something About You by Julie James.

Vampire Romances

Vampire TV Shows

Sponsors

This week’s episode of Fated Mates is sponsored by:

Kelly Cain, author of An Acquired Taste,
available at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo or wherever you get your ebooks.

Visit kellycainauthor.com

and

Alyxandra Harvey, author of How to Marry an Earl,
available at Amazon.

Visit alyxandraharvey.com

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S02.07: That's Spelled J-E-H-N: Dark Lover

Woof, you guys. Woof. This week we’re talking a whole different kind of Vampires (not a single one chained to a radiator…we love u, Conrad) — with JR Ward’s Dark Lover — the first in the Black Dagger Brotherhood Series! We’re talking a LOT this week about toxic masculinity, about the world post 9/11, about what we expect from heroines, about the entire BDB series, and about what the heck is going on in these books. We also get all the titles wrong, as usual.

Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, please leave us a like or a review!

In two weeks, we’re getting more current! The read is Sarah’s Pick, Sierra Simone’s Priest, which is an erotic romance in first-person hero POV, featuring a priest and an exotic dancer (NB: She is not Catholic). If sex in church is your concern, maybe skip this one, but also know that there’s a lot fo religious allegory in here that is fascinating and brilliant. Get it at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo or your local indie.

Show Notes

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16: Was It as Good For You as it Was For Me? Sweet Ruin

IT’S HAPPENNNINNNGGGGG! Sweet Ruin, Sarah’s favorite book in the IAD series, is finally here and she is BEYOND EXCITED to talk about her favorite Kresley hero and the magnificent, perfect heroine who refuses to back down from their fated matehood. Listen as Jen and Sarah discuss Nix as Warrior Queen, make important demands of fan fiction writers in the IAD universe, and generally discuss why this book is one of the best of the series, without question. Block off some time and be sure to use the bathroom before you start, because this one clocks in at two hours (and we’ve already realized we forgot to talk about a few things — so prepare for updates in future episodes!)

Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, please leave us a like or a review. 

In two weeks, we’re finishing up the Game Makers series with arguably Kresley’s most broken hero (don’t worry, we’ll get to the bottom of this ranking on the episode), Dmitri Sevastyan! Basically, July is “Sarah’s favorite books” month, so settle in for that…we’ll be joined by one of our favorites, Kate Clayborn, who will reveal the name of our group text thread! Read The Player at Amazon, B&N, Apple Books, Kobo, or from your local Indie.

Show Notes

LIVE EVERY WEEK LIKE IT'S RUNE WEEK

TRANSCRIPT

Sarah MacLean 0:04 / #
It's RUNE WEEK and I'm so excited!

Jennifer Prokop 0:14 / #
Welcome to Fated Mates, everybody. For all of you who still claim to be confused about which one is Sarah, and which one is me, Jen. All you need to do is listen to this week's and really get to know intimately the sound of Sarah's voice, because I was like, I'm not really sure what my job is this week.

Sarah MacLean 0:33 / #
Okay, so wait, but literally this is the entire reason why we have this podcast, because I was like can we do a podcast about Sweet Ruin?

Jennifer Prokop 0:43 / #
And I was like -- let's, yes, but with a lot of other things, too.

Sarah MacLean 0:47 / #
Yes. And

Jennifer Prokop 0:49 / #
and let's do it. 30 episodes in.

Sarah MacLean 0:54 / #
You guys Sweet Ruin is, in my top five romance novels of all time. In my top-- one romance novel of all time.

Jennifer Prokop 1:04 / #
I know! I was like, top five? Sweet Ruin, part one. Sweet Ruin, the epilogue. Swee Ruin, the reread. Sweet Ruin, that chapter.

Sarah MacLean 1:19 / #
Yeah well, we're...Sweet Ruin, all the other times we see Rune in the whole series. Like just like for the 40 sentences.

Jennifer Prokop 1:31 / #
Sweet Ruin the Robert Petkoff edition.

Sarah MacLean 1:38 / #
Yeah, you guys, I love this book a whole frickin lot. A whole, whole lot.

Jennifer Prokop 1:47 / #
I love it but I feel like I'm tempering my love because I don't want to... I just feel like it's not my place.

Sarah MacLean 1:55 / #
I get it, I get it, it's too much.

Jennifer Prokop 1:56 / #
Yeah, I'm just gonna play the straight man this week. I'm going to play one who is asks questions.

Sarah MacLean 2:01 / #
I feel like I need to say, this is Episode One of 74 because there are 73 chapters of this book and an epilogue.

Jennifer Prokop 2:12 / #
There are a lot of chapters in this book.

Sarah MacLean 2:16 / #
So Kresley writes a short chapter and always has. But I feel like she really like crosses over into this like...

Jennifer Prokop 2:25 / #
It's staccato almost, right?

Sarah MacLean 2:26 / #
Yeah. Like it's so quick and I think that's part of why I love it so much because short chapters make the pacing so fast.

Jennifer Prokop 2:34 / #
Oh, absolutely.

Sarah MacLean 2:35 / #
You can tear through this book. And part of the reason why you tear through it is because, or rather, part of the reason why the pacing has to be so on point in this book is because there's so much happening in it.

Jennifer Prokop 2:49 / #
The "short chapters make for fast pacing" rule, I think is true everywhere. Did you read "All the Light We Cannot See?"

Sarah MacLean 2:57 / #
Yes, of course. Sure.

Jennifer Prokop 2:58 / #
Same thing, I think it's like a rule, I don't know made that rule but it's a rule.

Sarah MacLean 3:04 / #
It's actually rule that I've never really been very good at following, but in the last two books, the Bare Knuckle Bastards series of mine-- Wicked and the Wallflower and Brazen and the Beast--, I've been much more conscious of ending a scene where the scene needs to end, and then just-- new chapter. I used to write a scene and then do a decorative thing on the page, and then a new scene but in the same chapter, and I actually don't see why that's valuable. I think what's really interesting here and with a lot of the books that have short chapters, is it also moves the POV back and forth really fast. So you'll be in a scene with Rune and then instantly switch to Josie and you get the exact same scene really quick from the opposite point of view. And you just feel like you're really in it with both, and you feel deeply connected to both of these characters. So, this is the beginning of the Morior arc, right? The movement, the Morior movement,

Jennifer Prokop 4:13 / #
We don't know if the Morior movement continues or goes on hiatus with Munro because that book's not out yet. And I think that's a really big question for both of us, because Wicked Abyss is certainly part of the Morior movement, although we're going to pause and go to the Shadows books next time, right, we still are going to wait. And I think that's a really interesting question, just because I don't know. It's hard to believe the Morior movement is only two books-- that cannot be, right?

Sarah MacLean 4:48 / #
No, it surely isn't. Especially because she's laying the groundwork for a lot of other characters. But you never know because she also could be getting tired and she's doesn't want to do this anymore. Like that's real. But I don't like that. So let's just pretend that's not the answer.

Jennifer Prokop 5:07 / #
How did you speak that into the world? But OK.

Sarah MacLean 5:09 / #
OK, so our characters are Josephine Doe. Josie, young Josie, who is another one of our characters-- so everybody laughs at me when I say this, but I actually think Sweet Ruin is also a possible entry point into the series. And I know that sounds crazy, but we've talked before about how every time we have a mortal heroine, or heroine who is young, and did not grow up in the Lore. She has to learn everything and so as she's learning it, we're learning alongside with her. And it's a really smart-- I don't know if Kresley does it on purpose, although I think Kresley does everything on purpose, but it's a really smart conceit to leave, they're basically entrances to the highway, to the IAD highway.

Jennifer Prokop 6:05 / #
The other thing that I think about a lot and I think this is something that she has in common with Lila, is that they're both...

Sarah MacLean 6:13 / #
...who is the the heroine of Wicked Abyss.

Jennifer Prokop 6:14 / #
Yeah, is that they're both... the Valkyries have their coven. The Witches have their house-- But these heroines are both alone. And I think that that means there's also a sense that we can enter into their stories because we don't need all that other backstory about who they are and who they belong to. So I also think that Wicked Abyss could be an entry point, which I think is pretty interesting.

Sarah MacLean 6:42 / #
Yeah, I agree. And we'll talk about this when we do Wicked Abyss. But Lila, too, is very Earthbound. Even though she's a fairy. Or she's fey, she lives in the mortal world. She passes as a human. And so Josie, So Josie passes as a human, but she doesn't think she's a human. She knows--

Jennifer Prokop 7:13 / #
She's a freak.

Sarah MacLean 7:14 / #
She knows part of what she is. So the book begins and we are-- Josie is young. It is 14 years earlier. And she has, she is homeless. She has an infant brother, who came with her to...

Jennifer Prokop 7:35 / #
They're in Houston.

Sarah MacLean 7:36 / #
They're in Houston. And she like bums around the library. And the librarian has sort of taken her under her wing and gets her food and takes care of her. But she's homeless and she's running with her little brother. She doesn't want to get caught because she's afraid that if she gets caught they'll be separated, who knows what. So she falls in with a terrible crowd and ends up getting shot. And dying. Like, she sees herself come out of her body. She dies. And then she returns as a ghost. Well, she doesn't know what she is.

Jennifer Prokop 8:15 / #
She's a freak, that's is what she calls herself.

Sarah MacLean 8:21 / #
Her brother has now been adopted by the librarian. She goes back to that home. And the librarian sees her and is terrified-- rightly so because this child is dead-- and that is that. She sees that she's causing more trouble than

Jennifer Prokop 8:42 / #
Yeah, I think she sees that Thad doesn't quite remember her, and that Thad is really happy and-- I think he calls the librarian Mama. And and Josie had been his mother even though she was just really little and so I think what happens is she realizes, "I can't take care of him. I don't even know how to take care of myself." It's a painful, really painful moment.

Sarah MacLean 9:08 / #
Because she's dead, so she's obviously feeling alone. She's always been alone, she's always been taking care of both of them. And the only purpose she has is she realizes she has to let it go. So she lets Thad go, her baby brother, who is a toddler at this point. And then we flash forward to present day. And we discovered that Josie has been following Thad. Obviously, she's been keeping keeping up with Thad.

Jennifer Prokop 9:43 / #
I mean, it's been her life's work. I feel like I've said before, like, "oh my god, this heroine made me so sad" but like Josie made me so sad because not only is she completely alone, but she knows that she is different than other people, she knows that there's something out there that she cannot figure out herself. It's heartbreaking. The feelings I have for her so poignant and I think it's just the starting place for her-- like this love she has for Rune, all she wants is to find someone she can belong with. And he has belonged with the whole world, the whole worlds. And and He's so-- he's just so cold. It's a really interesting pairing.

Sarah MacLean 10:44 / #
Yeah. So Rune. So Josie is young, she's possibly our youngest heroine, I think. She might be-- Holly might be right around her same age.

Jennifer Prokop 10:57 / #
And Mariketa, maybe.

Sarah MacLean 10:59 / #
Yeah, but Mariketa has to be set aside as a young heroine because she's so badass, so powerful.

Sarah MacLean 11:11 / #
So anyway, Josie is our youngest heroine, our youngest sort of like human-esque heroine. Oh, and it's important to know Josie discovered she's vampire. She was young, so when she when she realizes that she is dead, she also realizes--oh, I could be hungry. And then she feeds. We know she's a vampire. She knows she's a vampire but never really gives language to it. And she can do this thing called ghosting, which we'll get to. So we have our youngest heroine ever in the universe, and Rune Darklight...

Jennifer Prokop 11:54 / #
Let's pause for giggling.

Sarah MacLean 12:04 / #
Rune is one of the Morior, or the Bringers of Doom. And we've been hearing about them for a few books.

Jennifer Prokop 12:12 / #
One of my favorite parts this book is when Josie at some point imagines them as being like the Superfriends, but evil. And I honestly kind of love it. it was a great.

Sarah MacLean 12:26 / #
They're like Bizarro Avengers. Right? We meet Rune in what I envisioned to be sort of a the Star Trek, you know, what's that ship called? The intrepid? No, that's not right. That's a big ship.

Jennifer Prokop 12:46 / #
The Enterprise?

Sarah MacLean 12:47 / #
The Star Trek Enterprise! So they're in a realm called Tenebrous. It's hurtling through space-time -existence. And we meet in like wandering around the empty halls of this what is not stop thinking about as like a spaceship style like, thing?

Jennifer Prokop 13:09 / #
Yeah, me too. It's like basically he's on the nightwatch but when you're immortal or like a god or whatever the nightwatch is like, hundreds of years. Everyone else is napping.

Sarah MacLean 13:21 / #
That's what it says like it's basically like everyone else is asleep. And poor Rune is like, bumming around for 500 years. Waiting for them to get close to Earth, because the head of the Morior, a man named Orion, who is we still don't know. And we'll get to Orion has amassed this-- it's basicallyArthurian legend--Like the Knights of the Round Table. There are 12 seats at this table, and each seat is reserved for a primordial of a species-- of an immortal species. The primordial is the first of its kind, important to know we already have a primordial Valkyrie on the page. Nix presumably has a seat at this table. And he is come for Nix, Orion is coming for Nix, who we know from the last book is working on being a goddess.

Jennifer Prokop 14:17 / #
I hope he is "coming" for Nix at some point and I am not the only one who thinks that.

Sarah MacLean 14:24 / #
My whole theory is that the only, well our whole theory.

Jennifer Prokop 14:29 / #
Everyone's theory.

Sarah MacLean 14:30 / #
Nix and Orion at the end right? In the last book. So Orion has amassed, has like put together this table full of people, who are: Rune, the primordial dark fay, we'll get to it. Alixta, Who's the primordial witch who I love so much she's such a bitch. I love her.

Jennifer Prokop 14:50 / #
She has a cat, she has a familiar--Curses.

Sarah MacLean 14:52 / #
She does. she fucking pissed at Earth's witches because they don't pay taxes. The witches all pay taxes, and they haven't paid their taxes. It's kind of awesome.

Jennifer Prokop 15:02 / #
Yeah, it is kind of awesome.

Sarah MacLean 15:04 / #
There's Blace. Blace-- is that how to pronounce it? The primordial vampire. And then there's some other creatures who I really love. There's like a dragon.

Jennifer Prokop 15:14 / #
Uthyr. He's permanently in his dragon stage.

Sarah MacLean 15:20 / #
He'll be magnificent in Wicked Abyss, so stay tuned for dragon excitement. And then there is the primordial wolf who is like one rage away from

Jennifer Prokop 15:34 / #
Permanently wolfing out. What's his name again? Something I can't remember. D maybe.

Sarah MacLean 15:40 / #
Oh yeah, Darach.

Jennifer Prokop 15:41 / #
There you go.

Sarah MacLean 15:43 / #
And that's where I think Monroe comes in. I think there's going to be a Darach. Because you know, in MacRieve, they said there were the primordial-- or not, they weren't called the primordial, the Originals or, I forget what they're called, but the reverse of a Lykae, the ones who live as wolves, and sometimes are men; versus the ones who live as men and sometimes are Lykae. So I think like, that's coming back around somewhere with this primordial wolf. So they all sit at this table. There's some empty seats at this table and Rune has been there for. I mean, he's been alive for 10,000 years. He's the oldest character we've met. Right? Because he's older than Lothaire. And Lothaire and Nix are...

Jennifer Prokop 16:34 / #
are like 3000 years old.

Sarah MacLean 16:36 / #
Yeah, yeah. So he's been around for 10,000 years. He's also the hunter of the Morior. He's the archer so he has incredible skill, all the skill that Lucia had as an archer, like, but with 10,000 years of experience. And Rune-- he specializes in runes, obviously-- and he has all these arrows that do cool stuff and Orion sends him to fetch, no, to kill, well Orion says go get Nix and there's a question as to whether or not Orion is saying like go kill Nix or what. We never spent much time with Orion we don't know his end game you get the very real sense that he is just as brilliant as Nix and has a like big plan in place.

Jennifer Prokop 17:27 / #
One of the things I caught on this reread was that he is a shapeshifter, where he can shape shift into human form. In beginning when they kind of all wake up, this time he looks like Thor, but last time he looked like dark haired or...

Sarah MacLean 17:50 / #
Typically he masks his eye color. Because at one point way late in the game, Rune sees his eye color and basically thinks to himself, oh, holy shit, I know what he is.

Sarah MacLean 18:06 / #
But we don't.

Sarah MacLean 18:07 / #
He doesn't tell us. Yeah, that's Kresley being a jerk.

Jennifer Prokop 18:14 / #
We love you Kresley, in case you're listening. And I think the thing that I found interesting about the Morior or I'm just gonna say this before we like move on to talk about, like what you love about like this romance. We've talked to extensively about like leveling up. And we have seen in the last couple books the introduction of other realms. Now we get that these primordials are, regardless of realm or worlds, I mean, so it's just like making the whole set. The whole stage just got so much bigger, and it also sets up an opposition force to Nix that actually feels threatening. So for 16, or however many books, she just kicks everybody's ass. And now we get the sense at least that these folks could be like a real threat to her. And that is interesting to me.

Sarah MacLean 19:16 / #
It has to be the setup for the end of the series. I'm sorry, everyone, but like, there's no way Kresly's writing these books forever. And this has to be the setup for the end of the series because of that. Nix just can't end up with Thad. Well, that's nonsense talk on the part of my friend Jen.

Jennifer Prokop 19:40 / #
I wanted to be clear I wanted Fury to...

Sarah MacLean 19:44 / #
Okay, well, Fury can't either but that's it. No, absolutely cannot

Jennifer Prokop 19:50 / #
Of course not.

Sarah MacLean 19:50 / #
For Nix to have a satisfying love story for any of us. She has to be. I mean, like she has to be matched in absolute parity. It has to be cat vs cat.

Jennifer Prokop 20:02 / #
Oh sure. And you know one of the things I thought a lot about is like we have speculated that it would be very hard to write Nix as a heroine because of what we know about how her brain works. And then if you pair her with a God who understands everything she understands. Her thought processes will be clear to him, and therefore, clear to us. So there's a lot of ways in which that seems so inevitable...

Sarah MacLean 20:27 / #
Well and it's already set up that she can't see him. He is the only thing she cannot-- she is ever knowing, but she is not all knowing-- and one of her blank spots is Orion. We don't have that kind of information about Orion though. We don't have really any information about a Orion which I think is actually just really smart. A smart move on Kresley's part, at the same time. So like, you know,you put Thrane's Key on the table. You can't give the readers too much about Orion because he's too powerful. You're going to need him to do all sorts of things and you can't limit him. So that's the Morior. We love them. But also what's really interesting, what I like the most about the use of the Morior is they're setup for multiple books as the Bringers of Doom--which Yeah, not a great name-- It doesn't doesn't know strike, strike, you know, it doesn't it doesn't lead to a whole lot of confidence on the partof ID readers right? But in they come, and the theory is like, and they're coming for Nix. That's the whole plot of this book is That-- we will remember from the Lotharie arc of the series-- that Thad is under the protection of the Valkyries at Val Hall. And so and he is there Josie knows he's there but doesn't know anything else. Does she know he's there?

Jennifer Prokop 21:50 / #
She comes to know he's there and that's why she essentially agrees to work with Rune because they now have the common foe even though they have different reasons for wanting to get her.

Sarah MacLean 22:02 / #
It's a really it's a very clean conflict. Josie wants Thad; Ruin wants Nix. Josie is too clever to reveal that she doesn't know things. She's very proud. Like she's written she's a great character. She's written a super proud, like, unwilling to bend. Her whole her whole mantra is like squeeze it till it breaks. And so like she's unwilling to bend but she so she's unwilling to sort of admit that she doesn't understand this world and she doesn't know where Thad is. And she doesn't know how this is all working. And that's but she sees that Rune is her entrance into this, and so they make a partnership, but they would have made a partnership anyway. Because Rune is dark fey and this is where it starts to get amazing.

Sarah MacLean 22:57 / #
Jen, tell everybody what a dark fey is.

Jennifer Prokop 23:00 / #
So, we've met one before if you'll remember Natalia right, who was like locked up in torture Island. But we didn't really know anything about her. But Rune's... Every secretion from his body is poisonous to everything and everyone.

Sarah MacLean 23:18 / #
except one thing.

Jennifer Prokop 23:23 / #
Not to Josie, right.

Sarah MacLean 23:26 / #
Josie!

Jennifer Prokop 23:28 / #
Sarah, you're so thrilled about this. I don't even want-- like. It's like you tell them and I'm like, "No, you tell them!"

Sarah MacLean 23:35 / #
It's so good. You guys he's so poisonous. Okay, so here's the thing.He has a monster cock. It apparently does like, well,

Jennifer Prokop 23:43 / #
he's like seven feet tall or whatever.

Sarah MacLean 23:46 / #
He's the tallest of all of all... well, He's primordial right? So of course.

Jennifer Prokop 23:50 / #
I mean, I guess

Sarah MacLean 23:51 / #
He's the most wonderful. He's Rune!

Jennifer Prokop 23:54 / #
And therefore his dick is the biggest. Fine.

Sarah MacLean 23:57 / #
He has a monster cock. And he needs this monster cock because he Literally he cannot kiss anyone. He cannot perform cunnilingus on anyone.

Jennifer Prokop 24:06 / #
You love that I first time for everything.

Sarah MacLean 24:11 / #
It's amazing, right? So we can't do any of these things. And he's half--so a dark fey is half-fey, half demon. Right so he has a demon seal. So he can come, but he can't ejaculate. But he never comes. But he is so good at sex...he's so good at sex you guys that the nymphs, he's a celebrity in the covey.

Sarah MacLean 24:39 / #
it's one point in this book, he walks into a covey and there is a standing ovation for Rune and his no cunnilingus monster cock.

Jennifer Prokop 24:51 / #
I know what that's an amazing thing.

Sarah MacLean 24:53 / #
He's so good. The nymphs give him a standing ovation.

Jennifer Prokop 24:56 / #
Oh, you guys are so many things that are like fascinating about Up to like, I feel like, now let's just stop and talk about this forever. But here's the couple things... one of the things I find really interesting about it is that... his emotional, he's so emotionally detached. Sex to him is all about power. It's just a weapon...

Sarah MacLean 25:22 / #
it's work, right? Because remember, we've met the nymphs before, and everyone goes to the covyes, the cocyes are like bordellos. So the nymphs hear everything, they get all, they're a great network of information. And that's going to be important. Like we talked early in this podcast about how we didn't love the way Kresley setup nymphs in 2004. By 2017, Kresley has figured out nymphs. They have power, They have their network of information of informants, They have information, They have important tools. They are essential to now the arc of the series. And in this particular case, Rune is so good-- he has learned to be excellent at sex so that he can service nymphs and be paid, basically get information from them.

Jennifer Prokop 26:20 / #
Right, right. Yeah. Now the part that's also really interesting about this though is this is another Kresley hero who has, who was literally sold into sexual slavery. Right? And so, and I promise we'll get back to talking about Josie because she's so fascinating.

Sarah MacLean 26:40 / #
Well, this is only we're only what like an hour into this.

Jennifer Prokop 26:44 / #
We're only on chapter seven of seventy.

Jennifer Prokop 26:49 / #
I literally was like, "Darrell, I'm gonna need you to bring dinner home because I'm recording with Sarah at, starting at four. And I have to leave at eight to pick up our child so I'm not going to be able to do Anything else for those four hours? And he just sent me a text that was like, "Okay."

Jennifer Prokop 27:08 / #
No. So here's the thing, like we've talked about. And I think what's interesting is that, I think his emotional scars from from being sold into slavery, essentially, because he did it to save his mother, he was sort of promised that by doing this, he could save his mother. And we all end, you know, we all know that's not going to work out. And so the fact that he then essentially turns it on its head, like I was forced to do this, literally every night, he had to please everyone. And if he didn't, they would, you know, threatened to kill him, is to then take those skills that he learned, essentially and say, Now I'm going to use them against the world to get what I want. It's very tied up in his psyche in a way that it's really tangled and really? Yeah, I just I found myself thinking about it a lot. It's really, it's really meaty, right. And I feel like there's just so much there...

Sarah MacLean 28:12 / #
And there really is. Because also he believes this is his whole purpose. Right? And there comes a point way later in the book, which we'll get to like we're gonna have to talk about the dark moment in this book and like how it all plays out right? Where he is basically like my only job, The only reason why Orion saved me from that horrible life, right? Yeah, from which I would have happily died to get out of it. The only reason why Orion did that is so that I could then fuck all these nymphs for him and then be the information Bringer. And Orion puts, like stops that, Finally 10,000 years later, Orion is like

Jennifer Prokop 29:04 / #
no you dumb ass I just thought you'd be good at getting information from people.

Sarah MacLean 29:07 / #
It's really magnificent because again that could be a moment where, in the hands of a lesser author I say all the time, somebody could have, a reader would read that and say, well this is dumb why didn't Orion say this 6000 years ago, but it makes perfect sense because Orion is so, he's operating on this like, universal plane, right? This is all just he does, This all this all feels very like messy and mortal for him.

Jennifer Prokop 29:41 / #
I mean, the thing that I think fascinating always about this is like these are immortals, but the ways in which they are human, like these are immortals, and recently I read a couple books where I just feel like like things happen, right? Like just a bunch of fucking things happen fine. But I feel like if you are not walking away from a book thinking about what it means to be human, or what it means to be part of the world, or be, right to like use that English teacher word, theme, right? And I feel like the ways in which Rune cannot escape his own interiority. That's what's going on here. I mean, it's literally when you're like, I think we've all had that moment where we're chugging along, doing shit the way we think it's supposed to be done, and someone's like, "why are you doing it that way?" And you're like, "wait, what do you mean?" I think that that there's something very real to me about that that he couldn't let go of thinking, "this is what I'm good at. So I'm gonna have to do it this way." Even though that was never ever said. Right. And and that I found to every time I read this, and every time I think about it, that self destructive element in him. That is all of us.

Sarah MacLean 31:00 / #
Yeah, so Rune also on top of all of this right on top of Orion and his time as a child being sexually abused, sexually assaulted, a slave, right as a sex slave like there's he has always been poison, right?

Jennifer Prokop 31:21 / #
Yeah. And not in that good Boys II Men way. Oh no, "That girl is poison."

Bell Biv Davoe 31:27 / #
Bell Biv Davoe. Now you know.

Jennifer Prokop 31:37 / #
It is sorry, it's fine, it's partly Boys II Men.

Sarah MacLean 31:46 / #
Don't at us.

Jennifer Prokop 31:47 / #
I know, I was like I know

Sarah MacLean 31:49 / #
So okay, so he he has bane blood, right? His blood is black, it is pure poison, like one drop of it will kill you. So kissing will kill you, one of our very favorite Twitter people, Aunt Angelique, who is a nurse, pointed out that this is worse than most of the sexually transmitted diseases that then all the transmitted diseases that we know about as humans, because usually saliva is so distilled, that is not distilled, It's so diluted, that you can't get a disease from saliva. You can die from Rune's saliva, right? So you just can't like he is pure poison. He doesn't get a mate. That's insane. He's a poison. If he broke his mate seal., his demon seal, and came inside someone. He would have immediately found his mate and then also killed them. Right? So this is all like he just and he's not, he's fucking all these nymphs, but it's not attempting, it's never described as attempting.

Jennifer Prokop 32:55 / #
No.

Sarah MacLean 32:56 / #
In the way that it is for all the other demons. For Rune It's a job he's never end he's in such control like he, he just he never even feels the urge to come, he doesn't come. so here

Jennifer Prokop 33:11 / #
He can experience pleasure, but there's no ejaculation, right?

Sarah MacLean 33:14 / #
exactly, but I get the sense from him that like he's been doing this for so fucking long like nothing surprises him and he's just not that into it right?

Jennifer Prokop 33:22 / #
Oh yeah well and in fact this is breaking one of the cardinal laws of romance which is the first time our heroine sees the hero. He is fucking someone else. And she is like,

Sarah MacLean 33:34 / #
Hey,he is a nice ass. So yeah, Josie is knocking around New Orleans, right? Yeah, like wondering about her brother. And she hears a nymph just losing her mind.

Sarah MacLean 33:47 / #
Screaming Rune the way I scream Rune, you guys.

Jennifer Prokop 33:54 / #
She's curious

Sarah MacLean 33:55 / #
You know, she's curious. She follows the the noise she gets to him like, you know, banging like multiple, multiple nymphs against a wall. And she smells. And she's like, Oh, he's not wearing Axe body spray. He smells delicious. And then, you know push comes to shove, and they end up meeting and Josie can't resist. She bites him to drink him. And he's like, you just signed your death warrant. That's exactly what he says. He's like, you die now.

Jennifer Prokop 34:32 / #
Well, he chases her down. She sort of goes, he follows here, there's a back and forththing. He knew she was a voyeur right? But yeah, I mean when he she just ...you fucking smell amazing. I am going to bite you and like the... It's hot. Right?

Sarah MacLean 34:48 / #
So I just got a puppy. And I so and Khalo, Our puppy, is learning not to bite, right? But he's a puppy. And so he, you can see on the His little face, he's like, I don't want to, I'm not supposed to bite that thing. I know I'm not supposed to, I'm not supposed to. And then he's like uh, I can't. It's too hard. And then he just like, this is Josie in that moment with Rune. Like, she just is like, I can't, I can't, I'm biting him. And so she has

Jennifer Prokop 35:16 / #
She has literally climbed him like a tree.

Sarah MacLean 35:19 / #
Well who Wouldn't? Oh, and then she bites him and he's like, you're gonna die. Except she doesn't. She's like, holy shit! This is amazing. And he's like, your body is a Wonderland.I mean, instantly. Instantly, he's like, what the fuck?

Jennifer Prokop 35:40 / #
And he like grabs her ass, and he unzipped his pants, and puts his cock in her underwear, like, he sneaks it up in there, and they, rub up against each other.

Sarah MacLean 35:48 / #
They dry hump on the wall. It's not dry.

Jennifer Prokop 35:53 / #
Well, not dry for her; dry for him.

Sarah MacLean 35:58 / #
So there's this whole, and then there's moment where he's like, holy shit. I've not poisoned her, which means I can lay her out on a bed and "torture"-- I'm using air quotes-- into giving me all the information that I need because this is how he gets information from an nymphs. He sexually tortures them, and edges them, until they can't bear it anymore. And then they tell him the secrets and then he lets them come. Right. So he's like, I can torture her and I can torture her for real. Now.

Jennifer Prokop 36:30 / #
but I would like to say before he has that moment of logic. He does come like a fucking fire hose. Oh, and he doesn't actually come, but except not, but he is so excited and he cannot believe he's coming and he's super into it. So I would like to say his first response is not logical--I can use this against her. His first response really is like, something miraculous has happened.

Sarah MacLean 36:58 / #
His first response is I'm Not his, his 130th response is not I can use this against her. Intellectually, it's like I can use this against her but, emotionally and physically and frankly, they're fucking fated mates if he would notice! like if he would pay attention! Like everything else in the whole world, like the universe is basically telling him like, this is yours, you belong to each other! Mine, mine mine mine. Except he doesn't say it. She says it. Mine, mine, mine.

Jennifer Prokop 37:30 / #
I mean, that's the thing, 10,000 years of training -- the universe has trained him to believe that he's poison, that he does not deserve a mate, that all these reasons emotionally that he could never have that. It's like he can't even see literally what's right in front of him. And we have talked about this, like the fact that she recognizes that he must be her mate. That she's the one who has that instinct in that calling. It really means something I think to have a heroine experience that and have to decide what to do with it, as opposed to a.... it's a different experience.

Sarah MacLean 38:11 / #
And you know what I love? It's such a it's actually really interesting. So this is the book that came after The Master. And there are a lot of echoes of The Master in this book in the sense that like, Josie doesn't take no, Josie is like you're my mate. I'm your mate. Like we figured it out. Yeah. And she says what real early and he's like no,

Jennifer Prokop 38:36 / #
but there are limits to it. Like I if we do this you have to be committed to me only it's got to mean something.

Sarah MacLean 38:42 / #
Right. And I take any of his shit like zero of his shit. And frankly, like, this is a guy who with a single arrow can can decimate the bones of everybody in hearing distance. No, everybody takes his shit because there's no option. But there's so many like little moments while I was doing the reread, because I don't think I've ever read The Master and then Sweet Ruin one right after another. And while I was doing the reread I was like, Oh my god, like so much with the birth control thing that happens. The you know, the the fact that Josie is basically like she is a lot like, um, what's her name? What's her name?

Jennifer Prokop 39:27 / #
Cat

Sarah MacLean 39:27 / #
In that she just won't, She doesn't care about his power. She's basically, She's like, I know how this is going to go and it's gonna break my way. Not your way. Yeah. And then the fact that they both are like cunnilingus virgins, but like, really excellent at itimmediately. Tremendously excellent at it. Which, you know, fine.

Jennifer Prokop 39:54 / #
It's fine for him and I'm excited for her. But I keep thinking the other way. Like, I was like, she's afraid to have sex with this thing but she's like...she took like a little Advil before to loosen up that jaw. I like....TMJ I don't even know.

Sarah MacLean 40:16 / #
Well, there's a there's this great tweet that we will put into the Twitter feed and also link to in show notes where someone was like, I'm gonna need an over under on the size of a rooster. It's like Foghorn Leghorn. it's me

Jennifer Prokop 40:42 / #
like oh my god. My brother like like my brother follows me on Twitter, everybody my other brother listens. I don't care.

Sarah MacLean 40:51 / #
It's this is it's one of those moments when people are like I read romance for the fantasy of it. Yes, in this particular case, this is pure fantasy. Nobody wants to face this down in real life, but there, there it is. Anyway, so this is happening right so there's torture and I want to talk about that torture scene. I mean torture again, I use air quotes. It's all edging right? brings so except it's not edging to begin with because he gets her back to his apartment or wherever the hell they are. I can't even remember. See, I don't even care. I've read this book 5000 times I have no idea where they are in this moment. Are they in the way they're in Tenebrous? Or in the apartment above the sex club?

Jennifer Prokop 41:35 / #
Are those the same thing?

Sarah MacLean 41:37 / #
Oh, wait, that's not the same. That's the same thing. I thought he kept an apartment above the sex club. With the glass bottom floor.

Jennifer Prokop 41:44 / #
Yeah, but I thought okay, same thing in my brain. That's like his apartment and tenebrous is the sex club. I don't know that. Now that I'm saying that. That seems clearly ridiculous.

Sarah MacLean 41:53 / #
Like Orion would not allowed a sex club to just hurtle through space and time with them. But maybe I mean, I don't know.

Jennifer Prokop 41:59 / #
Why not. Jesus, what else are you going to do out there and space,

Sarah MacLean 42:02 / #
somebody is going to comment and yell at us. And that's just fine. So whatever. Are they in that sex club apartment?

Jennifer Prokop 42:09 / #
They are in the sex club apartment for sure I don't, I have my book in front of me. And I'm now about to refer to it,

Sarah MacLean 42:15 / #
it doesn't matter. So they get back to his bed. And then she's, like, laid out on it. And he's like, I'm gonna edge you, I'm gonna torture you. And then he's like, but maybe I'll just let you come a few times first, because I love this. Like, he's in a candy store. Like, he's like, I've never been able to touch that or kiss that or do that or you know be with a person this way. And so like, I want to try all of this shit, which is amazing, because it's almost like Rune is the virgin?

Jennifer Prokop 42:43 / #
Yes. Well, yeah,

Sarah MacLean 42:45 / #
he kind of is

Sarah MacLean 42:46 / #
They kind of... he's never been able to do any of this stuff. And when he's done the like, normal stuff, which he's not allowed to do with Josie because she's made a sex deal -- and I love a sex deal. As we know..

Jennifer Prokop 42:55 / #
God, I know

Sarah MacLean 42:55 / #
Sarah loves a sex deal. Like she's basically said, we can't have sex. Until he realized that we're mates and so they can't do that part. So he is like he is a virgin and he's like, fumbling -- not fumbling--but he's like a 16 year old who's like I can't I gotta we gotta

Sarah MacLean 43:16 / #
Mind blowing MacRieve brain, right? Static brain.

Jennifer Prokop 43:24 / #
MacRieve brain.

Sarah MacLean 43:26 / #
So then he edges her a bunch and she's like, I don't fucking know anything about Nix. And he's like I can't break her. Except it's the truth

Jennifer Prokop 43:33 / #
I know. All right, it's Tortuta.A pleasure den.

Sarah MacLean 43:39 / #
Sure. Okay. So then cut to Josie basically being like, I don't know anything about Nix and it being true, but him believing that she's lying. And they like she's too good. I can't break her.

Jennifer Prokop 43:56 / #
It tells us something about his success at His job, this is the way I always get the information I need. But also his I think it's foreshadowing that this is also like his limit, right? Like, we're going to see that he he doesn't have any backup plans besides fucking. Which I mean, what a gentleman. But also--

Sarah MacLean 44:23 / #
in another way, that is another way is like my dog like... one move, which is just bite it.

Sarah MacLean 44:38 / #
So okay, but then there's this beautiful moment. Which is Josie saying, basically he realizes her restraints. She's pulling against the restraints there she's bleeding. That was never the intent. He releases her because he doesn't want to hurt her. And she's like, she like kisses him all over his face. And she's like, are you and he's like, Are you thanking me? And she's like, Yeah, I like you so much. You made me, you made me feel alive. And, and it's so magnificent because like this lonely baby. Who has just spent the last like 15 years knocking around New Orleans like, you know, imagining what it is to have a person care about her and this like lonely old man. Who spent the last 10,000 years knocking around the world like just wondering what it's like to have somebody care about him, and they finally are together. And it's so good, you guy. It's the best of the books you are all wrong if you think otherwise it's so good. It's so well done.

Jennifer Prokop 45:53 / #
Well, I think part of the reason I think that's true is In earlier books, it's like you're fated mate is wrong, right? Like you have to figure out how to work through this thing. And here we can see that they are absolutely fucking right for each other, but he can't see. He just can't see past like how entrenched he is, right? I mean, he's so fucking entrenched. He's down in like the Mariana Trench, right? And there's a part where he's basically like, she's going to be the one to have to change. Yeah, oh, completely.

Sarah MacLean 46:32 / #
Oh, we're gonna have to deal with me being me. I'm 10,000 years old I can't change. You're gonna have to change.

Jennifer Prokop 46:39 / #
And I kept thinking, this motherfucker is like toxic masculinity personified. And he's not even human.

Sarah MacLean 46:45 / #
Well, he's such a fucking asshole, too.

Jennifer Prokop 46:47 / #
Right. Oh, God. Oh, yeah.

Sarah MacLean 46:49 / #
There's all this piece and then he's like, I'm gonna find Nix, and she's like, I'm going to come with you. I want to be with you. I want to find my brother. And that's when it starts to get interesting.

Jennifer Prokop 46:57 / #
Yeah, because I want to talk about the vows to the Lore.

Sarah MacLean 47:00 / #
I know. Me too. You go.

Jennifer Prokop 47:03 / #
I think one of the things that's really interesting is vows to Lore remember-- we're on the whole "vows to the Lore" watch, right? And like when when does it really get codified into place and then it happens and we kind of get it like put on pause for a while occasionally people vow to the Lore, is this the book where or was it the last one-- Oh, where? What's his What's his face?-- Thronos says something really interesting about like a vow to the Lore was one one only a few could break. So we get this weird---

Sarah MacLean 47:35 / #
somebody said that, yeah.

Jennifer Prokop 47:36 / #
I think it's Thornos, says.... but it's the first time we've seen that anyone could break it. So it was all of a sudden interesting to me again. And then in this one, we get someone who doesn't know how really powerful those vows are making them willy nilly and freaking Rune out right? He's like, what the fuck? Yeah,

Sarah MacLean 48:02 / #
Because she doesn't get it and she won't tell him that she doesn't understand. Like her whole thing is I don't understand any of this, but I can't tell you and this is Josie's pride and I think Josie's pride is very important here, right? Because like, the whole dark moment of the book when we get to it, it's going to be the sort of clash between Josie's pride and Rune's self. He can't get past himself and she's just like, Fuck this. I'm not doing this work for you. So I really honor Josie as a character. Now I think more than ever, because like, Fuck this. I don't want to have to do your work for you. Like Get your shit together.

Jennifer Prokop 48:50 / #
Yes. Like, oh my god, I know

Sarah MacLean 48:52 / #
This is not women's jobs. Like your job is to manage your problems, in our relationship. Then like, we can sort of figure it out together, but like, I'm not in charge of you.

Jennifer Prokop 49:04 / #
Yeah, I'm in charge of Thad. I mean, and I would like to say that to like her whole thing all along is like, I'm into you. I think you're the man for me. I think you're my fated mate. But I've you, I've gotta go take care of my fucking brother. You I gotta get this shit figured out.

Sarah MacLean 49:21 / #
Like you clearly going through a thing. Yeah. And like, that's fine. But like, I don't have time for your business. And I love that. I love that. And I mean, like, I just want to be Josie when I grew up anyway. Josie, basically, like so. In part because of all that pride. She refuses to acknowledge what she doesn't know. Yeah. And then, because of that, she's like, well, I've vowed to the Lore we'll eat ice cream for dinner forever. And he's Like you are a complete mess. Like you are gonna ruin everything. You're gonna kill yourself and Probably other people, right? Like, he starts to behave and here's the thing, she kind of deserves it because he's like, Don't fuck with this, like, don't know this.

Sarah MacLean 50:09 / #
Ah, we haven't talked about the fact that she's illiterate because he hands her the book of the Lore. And he's like, read this shit. And like, collect yourself, child.

Sarah MacLean 50:20 / #
I mean like cuz he is a little bit like, you're 25 years old. I'm 10,000 years old. There is literally nothing you can teach me like I know everything. You know nothing, including anything about the lore.

Jennifer Prokop 50:34 / #
Yeah, right. So read this book.

Sarah MacLean 50:36 / #
And I'll be back in like two hours. She basically like creates, to continue this puppy analogy, He's like, stay in this apartment above a sex club. Right? Maybe that's the one in London. I don't know. He has a lot of apartments and he's like, Stay in this apartment, read this book. I'll be back. And she's like, Go fuck yourself. Because first of all, she's upset because she can't read And it's literally the only thing she really ever wanted to be able to do.

Jennifer Prokop 51:05 / #
I know

Sarah MacLean 51:07 / #
But she can't tell him that because she's ashamed of it. And then, and then she's like, you know what? I'm sitting in this fucking apartment. It's filled with priceless artifacts. Fuck this guy. Squeeze it till it breaks, right? the whole apartment. She's like flipping Greek statues and like smashing Ming vases and she's like, Fuck this. The only thing she doesn't touches is like Gutenberg Bible, like his Shakespeare folios like, all anything that is in printed word is safe from her. but she's just breaking all his shit because she's like, Don't leave me alone. Yeah, and he comes back and he's like,You're like a feral animal.

Sarah MacLean 51:46 / #
And she was like, Fuck you.

Sarah MacLean 51:49 / #
Let me break more stuff.

Jennifer Prokop 51:51 / #
She doesn't know how to read in English, but she very quickly starts memorizing the runes that He is drawing on himself for on right like, I just think it's like a really clever conceit. Right? Like, okay, I don't know how to read or write because I didn't go to school. But look at how fast I'm learning to read this other thing. And I think the other thing that's interesting is a lot of the runes are lost to Rune, right? His mother, she only taught him some, he didn't know all of them. He knows that there should be many more out there that he doesn't know

Sarah MacLean 52:28 / #
he has the talisman.

Jennifer Prokop 52:29 / #
And I think it's really interesting then that in some ways, they're both missing something by not knowing their whole, like written history, I guess I'd say.

Sarah MacLean 52:40 / #
Yeah. So she's then when she finds out that he's gone to find Nix. And her brother, which he doesn't he doesn't know Thad is her brother. She hasn't told him that either. Right. So right like, what do you into this guy? Like, what's your deal? Right? He's a preteen. What is your fucking deal? She finds out that he's gone and she's pissed. And so she vows to the Lore that if he does one thing to get to Nix without her, she will never drink again. Never drink blood again. And he's like, what the fuck lady? And it's kind of amazing cuz he's, I mean, as a reader, on the one hand, you're like this asshole. He treats her like garbage. He's treating her like a child. And then she does that and you're like,

Sarah MacLean 53:31 / #
this guy is one hundred percent Right, like, what the fuck, Josie. Haven't you read all these other books?

Sarah MacLean 53:40 / #
Don't you, know, about vows to the Lore?

Jennifer Prokop 53:43 / #
Yeah, well, vows, man, it turns out they're real serious.

Sarah MacLean 53:47 / #
Yeah.

Jennifer Prokop 53:48 / #
So and so he explains to her he's like now I have to take you with me like now I have everything I do. You have and and she's kind of like, that kind of worked for me then. So I don't know why you're pissed.

Sarah MacLean 54:01 / #
Because she doesn't 100% believe, like, I don't think Josie ever honestly gets to a point where she's like, Oh, I get it now,

Jennifer Prokop 54:10 / #
No. Well, why would she? Yeah,

Sarah MacLean 54:12 / #
Because it works out for her. So he has to take her all around the world. And Deshazior returns my favorite. Nix is like, fucking Nix, right? Like, Nix is amazing in this book, because she's like, follow me around the fucking world then.

Jennifer Prokop 54:30 / #
Like, she's giving them little clues,

Sarah MacLean 54:32 / #
it's a little scavenger hunt. She's like, Won't this be delightful?

Jennifer Prokop 54:38 / #
Rune's like, I'm gonna fucking kill her.

Jennifer Prokop 54:40 / #
So, she's like, I'm gonna go to the top of this mountain in China, right? And rune is like, well, I've never been Earth-- Gaia. He calls it Gaia-- Gaia is useless to me. Like I don't really hang out here ever. So I've never been to the top of this fucking mountain in China. And so That means I have to get us there but you're a vampire. And so I cannot, we cannot, fly like it is it needs to be at night and Josie is like okay. so they go to this place, they go to a barn in the Quarter and Deshazior is there, who we'll remember from earlier books. He's so great. my favorite of the demon

Sarah MacLean 55:24 / #
who talks like a pirate if you listen to the to the audio. Petkoff does him as a pirate. and there's actually an audio, that one of the recordings, one of the phone messages is Deshazior.

Robert Petkoff 55:38 / #
Ah, Lass. This is Deshazior. Answer the coal. Maybe I'll let you Touch me horns.

Sarah MacLean 55:46 / #
And he's delightful, and he's like, well, I'll take you wherever you wanna go to Josie and Rune is like I'm gonna kill this fucking guy, too. I'm gonna kill all these guys. But they make a deal and Deshazior brings them to the to this like shaded area at the base of a mountain, of the mountain in China where they're supposed to find Nix. That's when the vows of the Lore become clear. Because, like, so basically, Josie then traces. She traces into sunlight. And suddenly everybody realizes what she is. Which is, first of all, she's a day walking vampire. Yes, doesn't exist, like,

Jennifer Prokop 56:34 / #
and remember that female Vampires don't even really exist, right? So there's all these ways in which it's mind blowing to everybody, right?

Sarah MacLean 56:42 / #
And Deshazior is then like, holy shit, she's a daywalker. And then he's like, I won't tell anybody like that she exists and Rune-- And she says, we'll just do it. And Rune's like, No, you have to die. You have this information. It's gonna Kill her, you have to die. And he is like no I'll vow to the Lore. He makes this vow and Rune is like, you and I both know that's not enough of a vow. like there are others ways, like if a vampire, a cossas drinks you, they'll know. There all these ways that it could happen. It's not enough. And so they start to fight. Josie then goes fucking invisible, jumps inside of Rune's body, and punches him in the face with his hand.

Sarah MacLean 57:34 / #
never, in my lifetime wanted a book to be a movie so badly because all I want is that image. as Tom Hardy as a seven foot tall Rune punching himself in the face.

Jennifer Prokop 57:53 / #
Fine. It Sounds nice to me too. Actually. I deserve nice things.

Sarah MacLean 57:58 / #
and then she does she start to drag into the earth?

Sarah MacLean 58:02 / #
She ghosts him, too. So then she starts to make him invisible and he's like, What? What is happening? And then he's like, holy shit. You're not a vampire. You're a hybrid. You're half vampire. And half fucking Phantom. Which back in dark Conrad tied to a radiator. Naomi becomes a phantom. Like, by chance, and somebody like it takes thousands of years for a ghost to become a phantom. So suddenly, it's like, holy shit. What the fuck is Roseis. Is Josie? Who is Rosie? What the fuck is Josie?

Jennifer Prokop 58:52 / #
I told you Sarah was really excited everybody

Sarah MacLean 58:54 / #
you guys I'm so excited. I love this book so much. So then like they're like holy shit. Then she basically turns to Deshazior and she's like, uh, you're never going to talk about me. and then she turns around and she's like, and you're not going to kill him or I'm going to ghost you into the fucking ground and leave you there.

Jennifer Prokop 59:14 / #
yeah, it's amazing.

Sarah MacLean 59:16 / #
Oh my god and suddenly like this 25 year old nothing,

Jennifer Prokop 59:21 / #
gets the jump on both of them, right,

Sarah MacLean 59:23 / #
like, the queen of the book, of the series, right? Until we meet Lila.

Sarah MacLean 59:30 / #
Yeah.

Sarah MacLean 59:30 / #
And then you guys, here's the hard truth. Rune is my favorite hero. But Josie is my second favorite heroine.

Sarah MacLean 59:39 / #
Um, so then we so then and then it's just like fine Nix, it's like for next, right so we find we discover that Rune is afraid of heights. In order for me to properly be believed that this is my favorite book and I'm not like, you know, a shill for Kresley. I tell you the one thing that I have a problem with In this book

Jennifer Prokop 1:00:01 / #
okay, well then I'll tell you mine. okay I would like to know.

Sarah MacLean 1:00:04 / #
I bet mine is better. So they're climbing this mountain and China and they're like inching their way around like the narrow little wooden, Rune is afraid of heights he's basically like don't don't go anywhere near anything. you know that scene in Pretty Woman, where Vivian is sitting up on the balcony? she's up and she's like look no hands and he's like fucking stop! Richard Gere is like, stop! right now! and come back down--It's like that. And I had this moment and at one point she goes into him and then like, ghosts him and walks them out, like off the ledge into thin air. And he's like, stop it. Pretty fucking mean, but he deserves it.

Jennifer Prokop 1:00:51 / #
Wait, I was like, is that the part you don't like? because I liked that part. in that moment.

Sarah MacLean 1:00:54 / #
I was like, if this bitch doesn't ghost into this guy's body and like force him to give himself, like to actually masturbate himself. That is a missed opportunity Kresley Cole. And it doesn't happen.

Jennifer Prokop 1:01:08 / #
True, but it should.

Sarah MacLean 1:01:10 / #
Fanfic writers. You have your charge.

Jennifer Prokop 1:01:15 / #
Oh God, mine's gonna seem so much more churlish. But I, So I actually will tell you I I didn't love that they go to China and they go to Ayers Rock because of my whole like, all the immortals are white

Sarah MacLean 1:01:30 / #
Yeah, that too. And they call it Ayers rock...

Jennifer Prokop 1:01:33 / #
instead of Uluru.

Sarah MacLean 1:01:35 / #
I'm not I don't know how to pronounce it.

Jennifer Prokop 1:01:37 / #
Yeah. And I just was kind of like, you know, just you need to stop using it like places in the world for backdrops if you're not gonna include people from those placees.

Sarah MacLean 1:01:48 / #
Yes.I agree with that. I had I had a similar problem. I had a big problem with Ayers Rock.

Jennifer Prokop 1:01:57 / #
Yeah, Yeah, me too. Me too. Yeah. Like we're just gonna go there and fuck.

Sarah MacLean 1:02:01 / #
I know and we've said it 1000 times like I know, rep in this series is not great. Except for Loa, who is back in this book.

Jennifer Prokop 1:02:10 / #
Yes. Well and I think my thing too is like it had actually you know, when they were out going to other realms then it could be like just another thing. But now that they're back on Gaia, and they're just like popping for, backdrop I was like...ew. I didn't ike it. You know, take her to the top of Mount Rushmore. Fuck on George Washington's head, fine. How about the Grand Canyon? Like why do you need to go to Australia? Right. Like, that's the part that felt like, you know, Colonizer. She's a colonizer.

Sarah MacLean 1:02:43 / #
So there's that. So I'm glad we did that. I feel like mine was, you know, a little bit silly. I actually do have another, I have a plot thing to that I always question. So anyway, so they turn around, they go round and round and round and Nix sends them on a merry, merry Chase, and there's a part of me that's like is Nix doing all this because she wants Josie to be happy? and like she knows they're sort of falling for each other? and they are falling for each other. And he's like helping her understand her powers in different ways. Oh, and at one point Josie and Nix get into it, like they fight and they firght for real.

Jennifer Prokop 1:03:21 / #
and Nix kicks her ass

Sarah MacLean 1:03:23 / #
Yeah, like unabashedly and basically says, and what Nix does is she uses her Valkyrie lightning to create like a Thunderdome around them. And Rune is on top of a house trying to defeat them. And so he strings up his most powerful arrows and the lightning keeps, he can't penetrate the lightning.

Jennifer Prokop 1:03:44 / #
And it's a fascinating moment because we it's when we really see that Nix is more than just a crazy person who can like-- her power. It's really the first time we see her power, as opposed to her knowledge.

Sarah MacLean 1:03:58 / #
But like Nobody wants to meet Nix in a dark alley. And so she says to Josie at the end-- Josie has got like three broken ribs, and a broken leg, and it's the first time and Rune takes her back to his apartment and covers her and healing runes. Because he's so terrified. He goes to Loa to find a healing spell. But Nix says to her, you are the most powerful fighter, but you're not using your powers right. Because Rosie's-- Why do I keep calling her Rosie?-- Josie basically is just, I'm gonna hit it until it breaks right? I'm gonna squeeze it till it breaks. And Nix is like you are doing everything wrong. Because she is when she is ghosted when she's invisible. She's undefeatable.

Jennifer Prokop 1:04:48 / #
Yeah, and that's the thing. It's like you're using your power when you shouldn't.

Sarah MacLean 1:04:51 / #
And she has telekinesis! She can move things with her mind.

Jennifer Prokop 1:04:55 / #
And basically, this whole fight is Nix's way of showing her: You're, you know, it's like Float like a butterfly sting like a bee right? And you're not floating when you should be floating. You're always trying to sting. Yeah, right. And I think that it's just this like object lesson for her.

Sarah MacLean 1:05:12 / #
She doesn't learn it from Nix.

Jennifer Prokop 1:05:13 / #
She has to learn by brute force. That's there's this other thing. Right? It's like really fascinating.

Sarah MacLean 1:05:19 / #
So they get invited to at the end--

Jennifer Prokop 1:05:21 / #
We have to talk about the ball, right?

Sarah MacLean 1:05:23 / #
Yeah, so at the end, they at the end of this like wild goose chase, Nix sends a gondola down the Venetian canal. The Grand Canal in Venice, and on it is an invitation to a fairy ball. Now, the fairy half of Rune is royalty, of course, fairy royalty. Right. He is one of the surviving members of the royal fairy family and the person who currently--this is important for the next book, too-- the person who currently holds the power in This royal family is a horrible monster person.

Sarah MacLean 1:06:04 / #
Saetthan. Is that his name?

Sarah MacLean 1:06:06 / #
Yeah, maybe? I can't remember. But he's terrible. And he's Rune's half brother or cousin. It doesn't matter.

Jennifer Prokop 1:06:14 / #
It's his Brother. It's his half- brother.

Sarah MacLean 1:06:15 / #
Yeah. Same father. No, same.

Jennifer Prokop 1:06:19 / #
Same mother,

Sarah MacLean 1:06:19 / #
Same mother. So he's Rune's half brother. And he holds he like has this magical scepter like they're all these sort of magical fey things that will come into play in the next book, we'll worry about them then. But basically Rune has vowed on top of to serve Orion and Find Nix. He's also vowed to kill every member, every surviving member of this family over the last 10,000 years like this is the way that he has come to, he is bent on revenge for his mother's death. And like who wouldn't be?

Jennifer Prokop 1:06:51 / #
I did think there was like an interesting like meta commentary about like, like generational guilt, like Saetthan and of course, it I guess it's different when they're immortals, and they've been around forever and Saetthan really is terrible, but when he's like I'm killing every single last one of those motherfuckers, some of whom had nothing to do with it. It just goes to show you how his revenge is so, like, it's

Sarah MacLean 1:07:16 / #
stupid.

Jennifer Prokop 1:07:17 / #
Yeah. It is.

Sarah MacLean 1:07:20 / #
it's stupid. Revenge always is, that's why it's such a good plot. It's such a dumb plot. It's it because you never revenge is never what you really need.

Jennifer Prokop 1:07:33 / #
because you can't.

Sarah MacLean 1:07:34 / #
It's not going to solve the problem. It's not gonna bring mom back. Or like, it can't kill Magh again.

Jennifer Prokop 1:07:41 / #
Exactly. It's always going to be doomed to be disappointing.

Sarah MacLean 1:07:45 / #
They get invited to this ball. And Rune knows, he knows he's gonna get jumped. He knows it's a trap for him. So he's like, but fine, because I'm Rune Darklight. And I'm the greatest Archer who's ever been arched, And we're gonna go. And he's like and fuck, I have to take her with me because we made this stupid, she made that dumb vow to the Lore. So he's like, all right, listen, fairies are a thing. There's a scene. They were a lot of pastels. Everybody's gonna be in gauze. Josie is like, take me

Jennifer Prokop 1:08:24 / #
Take me shopping

Sarah MacLean 1:08:25 / #
Take me to the French Quarter to the second hand shops. Yeah, Rune is like, say what now? Rune is the embodiment of that gif of like the white guy shaking his head, confused.

Jennifer Prokop 1:08:43 / #
But I do love at that moment that he is worried she'll be embarrassed. Right? I love that He's a little like, oh boy. Right but I also want to point out I think he thinks he she will embarrass him.

Sarah MacLean 1:08:58 / #
Oh, of course he does. He's like, this is my chance to go back and show all of my horrible family that I'm going to crush them with my skills as Archer. I've been waiting 10,000 years for this moment. And now this what is she going to turn up in? Like she can she be trusted? She just she she ghosted into my body and made me punch myself in the face. Like who knows what's gonna

Jennifer Prokop 1:09:25 / #
happen, right? You know what though? You guys she comes out--

Sarah MacLean 1:09:28 / #
it's magnificent.

Jennifer Prokop 1:09:29 / #
And he

Sarah MacLean 1:09:30 / #
well first she asks him for blood.

Jennifer Prokop 1:09:32 / #
Yes, right give me a bottle of your blood and he doesn't know why. And when she comes out he I can't remember exact language but he basically staggers. Yeah, he almost falls over he is so blown away by how amazing she looks.

Sarah MacLean 1:09:45 / #
well what's funny is that she's in, my favorite part is she's in the dressing room, and this is another like kind of echo of Cat and in The Master, where she's like, are you ready? Cuz I look bananas good.

Jennifer Prokop 1:09:56 / #
Yeah, I look wicked hot.

Sarah MacLean 1:09:58 / #
He's like, I think I'll be fine.

Jennifer Prokop 1:10:01 / #
And then he's like, Oh shit, I was not fine. Yeah, it's amazing and I loved her confidence.

Sarah MacLean 1:10:06 / #
but she also inked her neck. she's cut a stencil and created a blood choker of the runes for like victory and something else. And he is

Jennifer Prokop 1:10:19 / #
good luck. I think victory and good luck.

Sarah MacLean 1:10:21 / #
And I mean, he just can't deal with it. It's the first time he's noticed that she like knows the runes enough to do it. It's, I mean, like, he sees his mark, it's his mark on her. Right,

Jennifer Prokop 1:10:37 / #
in his blood that no one else, that is poison to Everybody else.

Sarah MacLean 1:10:40 / #
you know, we said, we've asked people before, like, what's the hottest thing? Is it blooding? Is it? Is it the wolf bite, what is the thing that is the hottest? And this is all those things. It is both blood and demon seal, and he sees her and he's like mine. mine, mine, mine, mine, mine.

Jennifer Prokop 1:11:00 / #
Well and remember at this point they have not slept together. They fooled around a ton.

Sarah MacLean 1:11:04 / #
No. And he's like tonight Tonight it's on.

Jennifer Prokop 1:11:09 / #
And the part about, the reason I think, well and I would say from this point on this Kresley Cole has put her fucking foot on the gas and if it was like the Fast and the Furious like press like the the nos, and it's just like go. It's like a rocket. There is no, there's no stopping, and it is amazing.

Sarah MacLean 1:11:31 / #
The pacing is perfection at this point

Jennifer Prokop 1:11:35 / #
Because they walk into this ball knowing that they're going to get attacked. But they still dance and have this amazing time and everybody else is in these like frothy, frilly dresses and she is like wearing this black satin gown with this blood choker. And he is like this, he it's this amazing moment, and then what happens--

Jennifer Prokop 1:11:56 / #
and I remember when I first listened to this, I first read this book probably around a year ago last spring. And I was reading and listening because I literally couldn't stand to not be doing both right, because I, it was like one night, I was reading and I realized the next day that I was gonna have to drive and go up to Evanston. And I was like, I have to download the audio book I have, I can't not read for a day. And I was driving up to Evanston. And I literally stopped in my car, and had like, some time before I had to go into class and was just like, I'm just going to listen to the scene where these 50 swordsmen come out. What's amazing about it is she's like, Oh, my God, and he's like, this is insulting. There's only 50 of them. They're not even like trained killers. Like he's like so insulted that anybody would think that this would bring him down and she's terrified. And it is a really amazing moment. And it's one of the few moments I've ever liked in a book where the heroine gets sidelined. Right? She's like, I'm gonna fight too. And he's like, Look, let me show you what I can do.

Sarah MacLean 1:13:15 / #
Yeah, he's bragging.

Jennifer Prokop 1:13:17 / #
Yeah, at one point he's like, you know, nocking arrows and shooting them and he turns and winks at her. And she is so turned on by the whole thing and this and and it's really interesting because he has it firmly in hand he's got to kick everybody's ass when his evil stepbrother or half brother appears Saetthan, and he essentially gets Josie into a chokehold. And, or one of his assassins does, and he's up there and like, you know, they're doing that bad guy thing where they like, talk to each other and tell each other all their plans. But um, you know, it's like this amazing moment because Rune at that point, knows that she can handle her yourself. And that's why I didn't mind her being sidelined.

Sarah MacLean 1:14:02 / #
Well, because he says, release her. He says to the guy he's like, release her, or die a nightmare death. And everybody at that moment readers too. I remember that first. The first time you read it, you're like, oh, he's gonna kill him. And then you realize he doesn't mean him.

Jennifer Prokop 1:14:20 / #
He means Josie.

Sarah MacLean 1:14:21 / #
He means Josie is gonna kill him. And she slowly... and she does it so dramatically. She goes, half ghosts him so that everybody can see him flickering the like, bad guy. And then she sinks into the floor, like super slow and Rune is watching it like, oh my god. And she does it with such theatrical flair. And he's like, I am wild about this fucking woman. And she leaves and then she comes back up alone. Like she ghosts this guy into like the Earth. And then she goes, look anybody else?

Jennifer Prokop 1:15:01 / #
It's like when Captain America beats the shit out of everybody in the elevator. Like, Who's next? Yeah,

Sarah MacLean 1:15:06 / #
right.

Jennifer Prokop 1:15:07 / #
And I love that she that--what I loved about that scene is that she knows that she can do it and that he knows that she can do it. There is never a moment where he's like, Oh no, she's in danger. He's basically like, Oh, this poor motherfucker. She is about to kill him. And it's gonna be amazing.

Sarah MacLean 1:15:28 / #
I know. It's they are so perfectly matched. perfectly matched.

Sarah MacLean 1:15:34 / #
So um, one thing I want to just flag for the next read is that at the end of this scene Rune let's a one and done go, misses his brother, but hits the sword that is like the marker of, it's made with. It's not titanium, but something and some. What is it? What's that Captain America shield?

Jennifer Prokop 1:15:57 / #
Vibranium?

Sarah MacLean 1:15:58 / #
Vibranium right.

Jennifer Prokop 1:15:59 / #
Special IAD something something steel or whatever.

Sarah MacLean 1:16:04 / #
It's a special kind of steel. And basically the person who owns this thing, Who is a fey, is the king or queen of the fey. This is going to become important in the next book.

Jennifer Prokop 1:16:16 / #
Yeah, so absolutely.

Sarah MacLean 1:16:17 / #
That's like the fact that that has just been destroyed.

Jennifer Prokop 1:16:20 / #
Right? So,

Sarah MacLean 1:16:23 / #
So then she's like, this was fucking awesome. And he's like, Well, great. I'm glad you enjoyed it because now this whole place is going to be exploded. So we have to go like now. And so they run. And he takes them to

Jennifer Prokop 1:16:36 / #
Australia,

Sarah MacLean 1:16:36 / #
Australia, at where they bone on Ayers Rock. Yeah. And it's like his he loses his demon seal.

Jennifer Prokop 1:16:44 / #
The lead up to this moment is really fascinating because he's like, Look, I'm fine. We're finally gonna have sex. I want to have sex with her. And she--and he says that I want to have sex. And she is like, Well, I have been very clear with him about what exactly that's going to mean. So he is really ready to commit. And earlier in the night, instead of calling me dove, he called me love. And so it must be real. And he knows that if we do this, it really means that we are committed. So we can see all of the emotions and then he even gets like cold feet and she's kind of like, talks him back into doing it.

Sarah MacLean 1:17:17 / #
Oh, yeah, because he does, like suddenly he's, it's like, he's a virgin. He's like, I can't.

Jennifer Prokop 1:17:22 / #
it's great. She's like, oh, are we role playing and you're being Josie? I'll be Rune. Well, honey, you know. And then, of course, you know, it's like this epic sex but the, like, the emotional.... And it's all told in her point of view at that moment, like her.

Sarah MacLean 1:17:40 / #
She's so happy. It's happening. She's gonna be mated. She's gonna be able to have a family. Like she has said from the beginning. Like, we're gonna be partners. We're gonna have a family. Thad is going to be in our lives. He's basically said, like, I'm going to help you. We're going to get Thad back like everything. Everything is coming up roses for for Josie. Everything's coming up Joses. like

Jennifer Prokop 1:18:07 / #
I will say that getting her name wrong several times is taking our inability to get titles right to a whole new level and just want you to know, I appreciate it. I do. But I think that that's why this moment is so important. Yes, it's the sex, but it's her conviction that this means he finally realizes we're mated. Right?

Sarah MacLean 1:18:30 / #
But he does this thing that I don't love, the feeling, I don't love how it feels, and I don't think Rosie---Jesus Christ. Why do I keep saying it?

Jennifer Prokop 1:18:42 / #
I don't know.

Sarah MacLean 1:18:43 / #
Because it's basically it's their name. It's like

Jennifer Prokop 1:18:46 / #
Rune You're shipping them!

Sarah MacLean 1:18:48 / #
It's their ship name.

Sarah MacLean 1:18:51 / #
I don't think Josie likes it either. Truthfully, No, she doesn't that he inks himself with a contraception spell So that He won't come, right? And there is this sense that like, he's sort of like fucks around with her by saying like, well, we don't know -- my seed like, it's been so long and like, maybe the like train, like the bullet train of my semen will be too concentrated for you and you'll die.

Jennifer Prokop 1:19:19 / #
You'll shoot up into space.

Sarah MacLean 1:19:21 / #
Let's be fucking honest. It's because he still is afraid that she is his mate. Right?

Jennifer Prokop 1:19:26 / #
Absolutely.

Sarah MacLean 1:19:28 / #
So they're doing it on this rock and she like scratches him. And like, the contraceptions spell is wrecked and then his demon seal it breaks and he comes all over inside her and she did not die. And she's like, haha, I told you.

Jennifer Prokop 1:19:46 / #
It's also to me like the counter-argument to when Holly was sort of like it wouldn't have mattered how many contraceptions you use, you're definitely getting knocked up because you the vessel, right? I feel like I never really loved that moment. And so this moment where he essentially tries something similar and it doesn't work, but it's on him? It felt a little like as a reader, like, Okay, I'm getting the other side of that scene. And I did-- I was I was happy for Josie-- I really was!-- that his sort of attempt to like, keep her from knowing that... Because she needed, she, It's really important I think for her that he finally says: yes, you're my mate.

Sarah MacLean 1:20:31 / #
Yeah, of course it is. I mean, And who can blame her? So because that's the final? That's the final like nail in the coffin--it's a terrible metaphor. Yeah, like that's the final moment right? After That?Happily ever after.

Sarah MacLean 1:20:49 / #
it never, it doesn't get worse than this. Like it doesn't get better than this. literally, this is the moment this is moment where the book ends.

Jennifer Prokop 1:20:55 / #
Yeah, except Rune is a stupid motherfucker.

Sarah MacLean 1:20:58 / #
To the unassuming reader, this is the moment where the book ends. And this goes immediately to-- they've already been invited to Val Hall to meet with Nix and Thad. They go immediately to Nix and Thad, they fight together. They bone a little bit. And that's that. Scene.

Sarah MacLean 1:21:13 / #
Come meet us next week with Wicked Abyss. Except

Jennifer Prokop 1:21:20 / #
Except

Sarah MacLean 1:21:21 / #
Val Hall is protected by the wraiths. Right? Who now, and this is so smart, Kressley just, I mean, it all just like knits itself together perfectly right?

Jennifer Prokop 1:21:32 / #
Oh, god, it's amazing. It honestly is breathtaking. It is a

Sarah MacLean 1:21:36 / #
you. I say this all the time. People don't want to do the whole IAD series. They feel like it's too much. Sweet Ruin is a master class in plotting-- like, from the start to the finish every thing that happens on the page, and there is a lot of plot in this book. It leads toward this sort of masterful moment at the end. So we get to Val Hall and Rune has a plan. He has something in his back pocket which is there's a nymph who he's never slept with who swears she has something that will get them into Val Hall. So he's like well, all right. Worst case scenario, I have to go do my fucking job, and fuck this nymph, and then get whatever it is that she has, right? Obviously this is a terrible idea. The other option -- but he's like, I got all my arrows! I can do this, we can do this, between Josie being able to do telekinesis, me with all my arrows, we can get into Val Hall, no problem. So they start and it doesn't work. Josie's doing everything-- she throwing, she's doing her very best, the wraiths won't break. She can't trace in, she can't ghost in, there's nothing. can't do it. he's using his strongest arrows. The Wraith ring is like tilting, but not breaking. And so finally He's like, why? There's no choice?

Jennifer Prokop 1:23:07 / #
Yeah, I gotta go fuck this other lady.

Sarah MacLean 1:23:09 / #
She has a phoenix feather. and a phoenix feather will get me and I can make an arrow with it that will break the ring. So Josie is like you can, like you can't go sleep with this girl.

Jennifer Prokop 1:23:23 / #
Now I want to say there. This is the other way that the Vow of the Lore part pays off. Yeah, because he's like, well, you have to come with me. Listen, listen, you gotta come with me.

Sarah MacLean 1:23:33 / #
It's heartbreaking.

Jennifer Prokop 1:23:34 / #
And it harkens back to that opening scene where she did see him. Because you know that he's basically like, what we've been here before! No big deal, but you gotta come with me.

Sarah MacLean 1:23:44 / #
He's like, he says to her, you can ghost into me so you can feel what I'm feeling and you'll know I don't care.

Jennifer Prokop 1:23:50 / #
which is nothing.

Sarah MacLean 1:23:51 / #
And she's like, that sounds terrible. All of this is terrible.

Jennifer Prokop 1:23:57 / #
Yeah. And he says, I'll be thinking about You the whole time.

Sarah MacLean 1:24:01 / #
Whatever it's not a thing! It's my job. And then he does like the worst bit, which is like: I told you. I told you I wasn't going to change. You just want to reach through the page into his.. and just strangle him.

Jennifer Prokop 1:24:15 / #
I definitely put him in cold storage. I was so mad.

Sarah MacLean 1:24:23 / #
so they go into the covey and Dalli is there, Rune's friend Dalli, who runs the cove. This is where you know, I told you I wanted my Christmas novella with Deshazer and Dalli? this is it. Dalli runs the covey, Rune comes in, he gets a standing ovation. Josie is like fuck this nonsense. He's basically like, you can't go far, you have to stay here because I don't know how far your vow-- like we can't risk it.

Jennifer Prokop 1:24:50 / #
Right well and and Dalli's like. What in the fuck is wrong with you, bro.

Sarah MacLean 1:24:57 / #
She's like this is not good. This is not not working. So he's like, no, it's fine. It's fine. It'll be fine. And so he goes,

Jennifer Prokop 1:25:06 / #
it's so bad

Sarah MacLean 1:25:07 / #
and this woman is like, you better make it good for me-- it has to be long, it has to be good because you know, this is it. I'm giving you this Phoenix feather. and Josie starts to cry. And she cries black tears. She walks out and Deshazior is coming in, and he's like, Nix told me

Jennifer Prokop 1:25:29 / #
yes

Sarah MacLean 1:25:30 / #
three books ago, right that I would see-- She said, when you see the girl with the black tears tell her to surrender. And so he's looking at her and he's like, You're the girl with the black tears. Surrender. And Josie is like, fuck you, never. she gets her second wind and she goes back to Val Hall and starts throwing Lamborghinis

Jennifer Prokop 1:25:56 / #
like everything

Sarah MacLean 1:25:57 / #
she uproots fucking trees, she uproots A tree that has nymphs all in it and they all fall out. she's like, throwing shit at Val Hall and basically is like I will tear this house, I will break this house to the ground. So cut to inside were Lothaire is like, Jesus fucking Christ. Like, what is happening in here?

Jennifer Prokop 1:26:22 / #
Right right. What kind of fucking team Vertas thing Have you got going on here? Who is this bitch? Right? It's amazing.

Sarah MacLean 1:26:31 / #
And then you go back to Rune and Rune has decided: I can't do this.

Sarah MacLean 1:26:37 / #
He's found his, I mean, he's not able to do it. So he's like, I gotta quit my job. Anyway, Rune leaves, so he steals the Phoenix feather.

Jennifer Prokop 1:26:48 / #
But wait, I would like to say he has a conversation with Dalli first, right? Yeah. And this is important to me as a person who like loves graveling-- I really need to see the moment where you have been destroyed. And he looks like, this motherfucker stumbles out of this nymph's bed naked and is like trying to throw his clothes on, and Dalli is like, Oh my god, practically with-- like, I can't even describe how she must be looking at him right now. And he's like, Where is she? And she's like, gone, motherfucker. She is gone. And he is like, how? And she's like, well, she's with another man. And he freaks out and she's like, you don't get to do that.

Sarah MacLean 1:27:32 / #
Oh, because she said-- Oh Josie made another vow to the lore. Josie says I vowed of the Lord that for every time you fuck another woman. Yeah, I will fuck another man. And he's like, what? have you Done again?

Jennifer Prokop 1:27:49 / #
And it's like this really interesting way in which he like, like, that's not important to me. But it's important to her.

Sarah MacLean 1:27:55 / #
That's when he realizes Yeah,

Jennifer Prokop 1:27:57 / #
and then what he also realizes is She's.... because he's like I'm doing it for Thad, right? He's got this fucked up thing in his head. And what he realized is Is she still love Thad, but she loves me more. And she would never asked me to do this for him. And why am I asking and it's it really honestly now again I am not gonna lie to you I read this book and I was like, You need to be in cold storage overnight.

Sarah MacLean 1:28:25 / #
Oh, I mean right for another 10,000 years. See you in 10,000 years.

Jennifer Prokop 1:28:31 / #
I was still so pissed right there was not enough groveling for me in this book. Because even though, and and I will say he then goes to Val Hall, he figures out that that's where she,

Sarah MacLean 1:28:41 / #
But wait, can we talk about the fact that when he gets to Val Hall, all the Morior are there, like, okay, I want you to imagine this everybody, I'm going to paint you a picture. Okay? Your entire personal life is falling apart, like fucking falling apart because of you, asshole. Yes turn up to like, woo back your lady love. And everyone you work with

Jennifer Prokop 1:28:41 / #
is like, where have you been? And they all have telepathy so they all know what you did. They're like, are you a fucking dumbass?

Sarah MacLean 1:29:17 / #
talking in your head? Like, what the fuck have you done? And one of them is like, I'm pretty sure this is your mate. She's a total Kook

Jennifer Prokop 1:29:29 / #
maniac!

Sarah MacLean 1:29:33 / #
she's just destroying millions of dollars worth of cars.

Jennifer Prokop 1:29:38 / #
Yes.She's gonna be like literally like folding Louisiana in on itself in order to get rid of this house and get her brother back.

Sarah MacLean 1:29:44 / #
Somebody is like, she's magnificent. And he's like, no, don't even. Sian, who is the most Who is the most beautiful human, the most beautiful creature ever to walk the earth is like she's brilliant.

Jennifer Prokop 1:30:02 / #
So and and here's the part that I love then, like basically Thad is on the other side of this he doesn't know that it's Josie right? He, so they're having this moment and he finally realizes like Oh shit, this is my long lost sister who I thought was dead and he like picks her up and he's like cradling her in his arms and, okay, there's the whole flashback where we realize she's basically Supergirl. Then, which I like I was like, that's the other part I didn't love I just remembered. Anyway, she... and Rune, essentially is like, Give her to me. Give her to me.

Sarah MacLean 1:30:38 / #
Yeah, he's like, I love her. She's my mate. I give her to me.

Jennifer Prokop 1:30:41 / #
And That's like, Nah,

Sarah MacLean 1:30:43 / #
I don't think so. Bro.

Jennifer Prokop 1:30:44 / #
Yeah, yeah. Who the fuck are you? And Thad said since she was using her powers against you. You are not... you might feel that way about her, but she does not feel that way about you. And I really did love Thad in that moment.

Sarah MacLean 1:30:56 / #
Yeah, well, Thad's great.

Jennifer Prokop 1:30:58 / #
I haven't seen her in forever, but clearly You do not deserve... I'm not handing her over to you.

Sarah MacLean 1:31:03 / #
It's magnificent. So Thad takes Josie home to mom and grandma. and then suddenly this book gets real fucking weird but I love it like I love it.

Jennifer Prokop 1:31:16 / #
Well it's like chapter 71. We've been on a journey.

Sarah MacLean 1:31:21 / #
what's funny is Eric is gonna be like, this is where the book gets weird? They go home to the place where their mother and grandmother live

Jennifer Prokop 1:31:37 / #
and they like hang out for a week.

Sarah MacLean 1:31:39 / #
Yeah. Oh, so I mean, we don't have to we're not going to get into like how Kresley neatly like Sews up the wraiths versus the Valkyries, versus everything. But basically, at the end of this Nix is like, all right, you're on our team. Right? And the Morior are like, I guess this is over then. Oh, cuz Nix basically said to Rune, you can't kill me anymore because if you the second you kill me, she dies like she can't, she can't eat or whatever, because she's not with you anymore. Right? So So and then she makes Rune vow that none of the other Morior will kill her either right? he won't come from her and none of his brethrn will.

Jennifer Prokop 1:32:22 / #
Yeah, it's like it's a trap. And I think the other part that I I actually also want to say is you know, 800 books ago The setup is that the wraiths are going to protect the Val Hall, but that once the braid that the wraiths are collecting the locks of hair from is long enough, they'll be able to control every Valkyrie in the world for a certain amount of time. And then because things go sideways if this fight, she's like, You fucked up and now our contract is void and they were literally one lock of hair away. And again, And like you like you're like-- perfect it's perfect! because the whole time you've been like-- well shit what's going to happen when these wraiths and then you're like oh..

Sarah MacLean 1:33:10 / #
nothing. nothing's gonna happen with the wratihs.

Jennifer Prokop 1:33:13 / #
nothing's gonna happen. Nix is gonna fire those motherfuckers! you didn't do your job

Sarah MacLean 1:33:18 / #
exactly

Jennifer Prokop 1:33:18 / #
Look who got through. it's amazing.

Sarah MacLean 1:33:21 / #
it's perfect

Sarah MacLean 1:33:22 / #
it is perfect and this is also the scene where Allixta is like these bitches haven't paid their taxes and they threatened me. I love it. i love it. I have a pin you guys that Jen had best friend Kelly make for me that says what would Alixta do? Cuz I just I love her, I love her so much. Like I made a list of my favorite IAD characters it would go Loa, Alixta, Deshazior.

Jennifer Prokop 1:34:01 / #
Amazing,

Sarah MacLean 1:34:04 / #
So that's that. So then they go home, they go home to this house, where two old ladies like to take care of Thad. Just like everyone likes to care for Thad, like literally every person in the world including Jen and me. Careful want to care for Thad. Yeah. Um, and so they go home to this house. We're like people make fried chicken despite the fact that vampires only eat, drink blood and joy and basically like, they're like the librarian who adopted Thad a thousand years ago, says you can stay with us, your family, you stay with us. And she's like, Oh my god I have family. She's like, but I, but I loved that guy. ---Who was an asshole. So fuck him. Yes, I'll get over it. And she's like, I'll stay for a week. Yeah,

Jennifer Prokop 1:34:53 / #
I'll stay for a week and meanwhile Rune figures out where she is and just like, fucking eavesdropps, and watches From like the pool house. I was like, this would only be acceptable to me if he was like, had to lay on a bed of nails while he did, Or perhaps if like he constantly was slamming his fingers in the door or something like that I wanted him to be more tortured.

Sarah MacLean 1:35:16 / #
I know. And part of the challenge here is that we don't see his torture on the page. We don't. It goes back to that moment with MacRieve where like, you know, whatever. They're like, well, we could, you know, we have an incubi here who's happy to, you know, give her her sex medicine and he's like--- we're not in his head. We can't see it. And here we see Rune work quickly to protect and then we see but what we do see is Rune leaves to meet Orion to say I quit. Yeah, I'm not gonna be your you're like fucking informant. And Orion's like, Yeah, but you're my Archer.

Jennifer Prokop 1:35:59 / #
Wait, what are you talking about and what have you been up to?

Sarah MacLean 1:36:02 / #
And this is where I'm going to kick it to Rune-- Jen. Because I have a thing that I think you should talk about, which is dreams come into play in this book.

Jennifer Prokop 1:36:15 / #
Yeah,

Sarah MacLean 1:36:16 / #
Josie. How do we feel about Josie dreaming Rune's memories? Is it still achieved?

Jennifer Prokop 1:36:24 / #
You know, I was thinking about this today because we have talked about this so much. So basically what happens is she's been dreaming his memories of the beginning and then she accidentally gives it away when-- she said this before they have sex, right?-- When she says Good Warring. And he's like, how long have you known? And what do you know? And what was really interesting about this moment to me is in some of the previous books, I thought a lot about this and how I wanted to say it. I'm not sure I'm going to do it justice. In previous books, when the men like understand what has happened to their heroines? It's because we don't want the heroines to have to say it on page, we don't want to have to like essentially like traumatize them again. And so I ended up kind of coming around to liking it, although I did feel like it was a cheat, like with Lothaire, like whatever. But in this case, I ended up thinking that it was like we needed to see it on the other foot. And for him, he needed to see that she was not going to pity him. Right. And I think that that's like, again, it's just, what is the emotional response you want when you when you can hear someone's stories? and he just never wanted her to pity him and the fact that she doesn't, and that she knows what happened to him, And he very quickly understands that it means that he can still trust her, I guess. I do think it was really really important that that happened before they have sex. And not after. Hmm. Because they have to go into that sort of clean, so I think the timing of that reveal did happen at the right time. I think it didn't have the same weight it did, Because I think she already is so in tune to his emotions that nothing about it really shocked her. Whereas when male characters do it it's like a shortcut to understanding things that happened to women that they never really think about. Exactly.

Sarah MacLean 1:38:29 / #
I think that's accurate. I really like it. I also think that it's another look look Kresley writes, very difficult childhoods for so many of her heroes. This is another way of doing it. So that it doesn't feel so painful. to the reader.

Jennifer Prokop 1:38:47 / #
And I think after MacRieve, like okay, we've talked about leveling up-- you can't level up after MacRieve.

Sarah MacLean 1:38:53 / #
No, it's so awful. Well, MacRieve is so painful, too, the first like 60 or 70 pages or a lot Yes to

Jennifer Prokop 1:39:01 / #
And so we get the sense instead that he has like dealt with this, or is dealing this his own way and we're just where he is right now. Yeah. So I, I do think in that sense she's like I can just show this to Josie but I don't need to show it to you,

Sarah MacLean 1:39:18 / #
right. So I also want to talk about Josie beginnings, just briefly. So basically Josie is Superman.

Jennifer Prokop 1:39:28 / #
Supergirl.

Sarah MacLean 1:39:28 / #
Supergirl. Right.

Jennifer Prokop 1:39:30 / #
Have you watched Supergirl? The TV show with your daughter? Maybe she's too little.

Jennifer Prokop 1:39:34 / #
Well, it's essentially like the same in Supergirl, the TV show, which is the one I know, the one that's on right now. She essentially it's like is put in an escape pod at the same time that like Superman is and it's her cousin and she's supposed to like Watch out for him as a baby. Okay.

Sarah MacLean 1:39:52 / #
She's older than Superman.

Jennifer Prokop 1:39:54 / #
I think so. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Little Yes.

Sarah MacLean 1:39:57 / #
So anyway, there's an end of a world They go into stasis, Thad and and Josie go into stasis. And so it turns out Josie is like the primordial Phantom-vampire, right? Right. So here we are like our 24 year old heroine is actually like

Jennifer Prokop 1:40:20 / #
thousands of years old. Yeah.

Sarah MacLean 1:40:21 / #
Which is why Thad is so fucking powerful. And frankly why Josie is-- she hasn't reached the pinnacle of her power, but she will. So Rune overhears this, and it's like, Oh, that makes sense. It's a little bit of like a it's a work around, it is the single misstep in this book I think like the the kind of like suddenly he kind of gets where, he instantly understands everything that's happened but like, and we've never seen anything like this before. Like we've never seen. This is a brand new thing that's happening in IAD.

Jennifer Prokop 1:40:58 / #
My assumption was It's well established in this book that the Morior can read each other's minds. And so at this point in time, I just assumed it was almost like a new highway got was laid, down to her brain for the new telekinetic highway was basically just built.

Sarah MacLean 1:41:21 / #
Right.

Jennifer Prokop 1:41:21 / #
But yeah, I mean, I think

Sarah MacLean 1:41:23 / #
it's fine. It's fine. It's just not like I don't actually really care at all about it. I think that the challenge is, and it's partially because it has not-- I read spy novels-- It's partially because it has absolutely nothing to the romance, right. So like, you're sort of like, I don't care. I don't really care about this. So which is part of the challenge with that whole ending is he's watching from outside and there is a moment might one of my favorite moments in the whole book is when Rune finally reveals Himself, and she's like, you've been here for a week and I missed you. Where were you? And he's like, I was here. I was watching. And she's like why? You waited a week, Why didn't you come and talk to me? and he was like, because I wanted to put your needs before mine, which was the first, it's the first time Rune has ever ever done that, put anyone's needs before his own, with the exception of Orion, who he feels deeply indebted to because Orion saved him. It may not be enough of a grovel. And it's certainly not like an emotional grovel in the way that like, your favorite books of your favorite grovels are-- grovels that are deeply emotional. Yeah, Rune's gravel is very intellectual.

Jennifer Prokop 1:42:43 / #
I mean, the, again those classic Kresley: the grovel for her is action. so when she has her night drift, where she ghosts and drifts away

Sarah MacLean 1:42:53 / #
into the stars, which is her biggest fear.

Jennifer Prokop 1:42:56 / #
And his biggest fear is heights-- and he grabs onto her. And they are in lower Earth orbit.

Sarah MacLean 1:43:03 / #
Yeah, they're in the stratosphere, right.

Jennifer Prokop 1:43:05 / #
And there's point where she's like, oh, far we, and it's this amazing moment where he just shakes his head at her. She like, Oh, it's not good then. And she, essentially they plummet. It's like a freefall until she can materialize again. And then he traces them back to somewhere safe. And I did find myself thinking that in that way, it didn't surprise me.The grovel for him his action, which is I saw that you were drifting away. I knew that was your greatest fear. It's now hooking into my greatest fear. And I'm going to grab you anyway. Yep, wherever you're going, I'm gonna be with you.

Sarah MacLean 1:43:48 / #
I love it so much. and the he makes this magic room door in their house and Tortuga or wherever the hell they are. And if they open the door, they're like in the kitchen with it with her Mom,and it's just it's so sweet and perfect. And I love it. And I want them to have lots of babies.

Jennifer Prokop 1:44:07 / #
Hi, never that's not anything I ever want, but okay.

Sarah MacLean 1:44:11 / #
I want it at one point. He's like you could eat and we could, you know, try it.

Jennifer Prokop 1:44:15 / #
Yeah.

Sarah MacLean 1:44:17 / #
And she's like, I would have your babies and I'm like, I want you to have your babies.

Jennifer Prokop 1:44:23 / #
I don't want anyone to have babies. But I appreciate that I'm not-- like you know,

Sarah MacLean 1:44:28 / #
how do we go about the epilogue? You guys we are. It's two hours. It was a two hour episode.

Sarah MacLean 1:44:35 / #
We told them, we warned everyone. How do we feel with the epilogue? him teaching her how to read?. Oh, you're a teacher? Is that your jam?

Jennifer Prokop 1:44:47 / #
It is my jam

Sarah MacLean 1:44:48 / #
when he writes mine across her chest?

Jennifer Prokop 1:44:51 / #
Yes, please. Yeah, it's pretty sexy. Yeah, I think it's also here's the other thing. I would say. about him teaching her how to read... is. It's, it's You're so vulnerable when you have to put yourself in the position of learning, and it's also to be a teacher, you have to be so patient. And this is like a moment, I think. Yeah, so yeah, of course it totally worked for me.

Sarah MacLean 1:45:22 / #
Well, I also want to call it the fact that Kresley doesn't usually write an epilogue. Yeah, I know, right? There's this epilogue here. And part of what I love about it. Is that so the epilogue in a romance novel is it doesn't.... it does work. Like I yeah, a lot of people-- I'm gonna I'm gonna call out our Heaving Bosoms sisters. Because one of them I can't remember which one. I think it might be Melody doesn't read prologues or epilogues.

Jennifer Prokop 1:45:51 / #
Yeah, I know.

Sarah MacLean 1:45:53 / #
Right. It's like one I'm always like, that's not a thing. Like there. Those are words that we wrote for a reason. Yeah, so I know that. That's not actually uncommon A lot of people don't read epilogues Yeah, the epilogue does the work. Here's what the epilogue is doing for a True Romance reader. It gives you proof that happily ever after happened. And so this is why like I I know like you don't want anybody you don't wish babies on anyone and I don't either your body your choice ladies....but....but I love a baby in an epilogue because it sort of like flags that we're in the future, this couple will have a legacy, they'll have a legacy-- in 1000 years there will be more Josie and Runes right running around. But so that said, that's a weird and I get it I get the problematic nature of that. We can talk about that in another episode. But in this particular case, what Kresley is giving us is a glimpse of happily ever after these two, this is like four pages of pure domestic idle. Like, they're in this house, reading books. smooching, joking, getting a little frisky. And it's lovely. Even though outside the door. Something is brewing.

Jennifer Prokop 1:47:18 / #
And I think you know, what it reminds me of is, um, you know, the movie Speed which @bandherbooks swears is a romance and I'm kind of with her there-- there's a whole ongoing thing where he's always like, you know, relationships that start in intense circumstances never work out. And this is like this epilogue is like a little promise to us as a reader that even though so many intense things happen to these characters, and I would argue here this epilogue is like all of them. Right? That it's, it's it's like, okay, yes, but they still have these, These moments of domesticity where we see them together, doing things together, and so in that way it's unlike other epilogues, which are like wrapping up an entire book or series or looking to the future. This is just like a little outtake of their relationship. And yet, because we only saw them in action, we needed to see this too.

Sarah MacLean 1:48:21 / #
I agree.

Sarah MacLean 1:48:22 / #
I mean, like, there's no moment we I mean, it's pacing, right? there's just no time. None the whole book like the pacing is so fast. And like there's no time to see them quietly loving each other.

Jennifer Prokop 1:48:34 / #
And we need that!

Sarah MacLean 1:48:35 / #
We see them quietly loving each other in the epilogue, and it's beautiful. And I love it and I wish Kresley would write epilogues for all the characters.

Jennifer Prokop 1:48:44 / #
Yeah, yeah. So did you get it all out, Sarah?

Sarah MacLean 1:48:51 / #
Was it as good for you as it was for me.

Jennifer Prokop 1:48:54 / #
I want to tell you-- it was because I was really afraid that I would just be ...not have anything to offer but I do feel like I offered things for you.

Sarah MacLean 1:49:03 / #
You are Magnificent, magnificent I never worried about that at all.

Sarah MacLean 1:49:08 / #
I have some I have some outstanding questions like at one point Nix says to Rune Don't you want to know what the Runes on your mother's talisman mean? and she never gives them

Jennifer Prokop 1:49:20 / #
we don't know. Yeah.

Sarah MacLean 1:49:23 / #
I really really want Blace... I'm on record for wanting Blace and Fury to be a match. I know that Kresley has said Kristoff and Fury but who remembers who Kristoff is?

Jennifer Prokop 1:49:35 / #
Yeah, Kristoff is off. I don't think anybody cares about him anymore.

Sarah MacLean 1:49:39 / #
And then, Allixta, I want everybody to pay their taxes to Allixta.

Jennifer Prokop 1:49:44 / #
Yeah, I mean, a lot of things being set up here.

Sarah MacLean 1:49:49 / #
And I want that dragon to be a hero.

Jennifer Prokop 1:49:53 / #
Yeah, I think there was, god, there's something else for me and I just lost it. But I remember thinking.... Oh, There is one line when they're like kind of fighting and Team Vertas, including Lothaire was up on the porch or whatever, where there's this line about like how her carefully constructed Alliance already had cracks in it.

Sarah MacLean 1:50:15 / #
Whose? Nix's?

Jennifer Prokop 1:50:16 / #
Nix's, right. So there's a sentence that's like her carefully constructed Alliance was already showing cracks. And I'm so I'm really curious about that because of course at this point I'm so convinced that Nix anything we see is what she wants us to see.

Sarah MacLean 1:50:35 / #
Well, what's really interesting is we're about to move into Wicked Abyss, and there's virtually no Lore. It's so self contained. But it's really I mean, like I think Monro being next is a really fascinating choice because

Jennifer Prokop 1:50:50 / #
oh god me, too

Sarah MacLean 1:50:51 / #
I can't You know, I've said this from the start that like at the beginning of every Kressley book, I think to myself, like all right, what are the threads? How is it going to work itself out and I'm always wrong. I can not see any reason why Munro would be next. But it is yeah. And Kresley for sure has a reason. So

Jennifer Prokop 1:51:08 / #
yeah. Okay, so, Sarah Yes. Next time, we're going to The Player. Yay.

Sarah MacLean 1:51:19 / #
Also, we didn't really talk a lot about Rune as a broken hero but like we are going to do some real work on broken heroes with The Player.

Jennifer Prokop 1:51:27 / #
And then we're going to do Shadow's Claim and Shadow's Seduction together. And then we'll go to Wicked Abyss. And I you know what, don't ask us what season two fated mates is because yeah,

Sarah MacLean 1:51:40 / #
we have a season two plan but we're not ready to reveal it. But there I mean, that's kind of it right? Like there is a season two. Yeah, there is a season two. It's coming. either end of August, beginning of September. I don't know what the dates are. But we'll start there. You're not taking a break. We're going to leave we're going to jump right into it. It'll be fated mates. You know, Ruby Dixon?

Jennifer Prokop 1:51:48 / #
Yes. Fine. Hey, you know what

Sarah MacLean 1:52:07 / #
fated mates blue aliens. Yeah.

Jennifer Prokop 1:52:12 / #
So can I say something exciting that's happening in my life? Everybody? Yay. Yes. I think I'm kind of ready to announce it. So I'm in just a couple of days from when this comes out on July 6, Kirkus will be putting I've been asked to interview a bunch of authors and the first author interview goes up on July 6, it's going to be Reese Ryan. And this is like the kickoff of what looks like a kind of full time gig for me at Kirkus as their correspondent

Sarah MacLean 1:52:43 / #
Yay, romance correspondent. But she's not leaving the podcast, I would only allow her to takethis job if She's promised she's not leaving the podcast.

Jennifer Prokop 1:52:54 / #
I'm a little nervous because there's like a new editor in chief so who knows maybe he'll be like, man, she's terrible. But as of Right

Sarah MacLean 1:53:00 / #
now I'll be like, Wow, she's amazing. She should have my job.

Jennifer Prokop 1:53:03 / #
obviously.

Jennifer Prokop 1:53:05 / #
I already have like a bunch of jobs. This is the job.

Sarah MacLean 1:53:08 / #
I don't think you want to be editor in chief of Kirkus. Oh, yay, July is gonna be super exciting. I have a thing happening in July to

Jennifer Prokop 1:53:15 / #
you do have a thing happening in July. Tell us about it.

Sarah MacLean 1:53:18 / #
You guys have a book out. I've been talking to you about it a lot. I know. It's called Brazen and the Beast. It's out July 30. If you preorder from my local bookstore, which is Word in Brooklyn, we'll put the link in show notes and you say Fated Mates, you can get stickers, you can also get these amazing mirrors. Either preorder will be fine. And it will come with a mirror that says the year of you which will make sense when you read about Hattie. Fun fact for fated mates listeners. There are at least three points in this book, where my editor, circled a line and said this feels intense and it's basically because it was like a Kresley Cole line, like he would bring her the heads of her enemies.

Sarah MacLean 1:54:06 / #
So, I feel like anybody who loves IAD if they're willing to try a historical this might be a book that you would like it's gonna be a book that you like, trust me. It's amazing, but it's coming out July 30. And that's exciting. Jen and I are also doing a live episode of faded mates with the wicked wallflowers crew, Jenny and Sarah, we'll be doing that at RWA, which is the third week of July. I'm also hosting the RITAs, we'll put links to that that so you can watch online. The RITAs are a whole lot this year. Jen's been reading all the books will will connect to her thread also. And is that two hours it's a lot. This is fated mates everyone. We Love you. Thanks for staying with us for two hours. Thanks for letting me like screaming your earholes about Rune Darklight for two hours. I gotta say like, I feel like I have to like give a speech or something related to this episode, but like I've been waiting for this episode forever. I'm really excited that all of you are still with us. We started this for fun and like this is awesome. I'm super excited.

Jennifer Prokop 1:55:21 / #
Me too

Sarah MacLean 1:55:22 / #
subscribe if you haven't already. Although if you are listening to us what's wrong with you subscribe on your local podcast app.

Sarah MacLean 1:55:29 / #
We are free. If you haven't and you feel so inclined, please give us a review like us. And you can always look at show notes which are amazing. Jen puts them together and does so much work every week. And you can What else? What else can they do? They can comment on the website at fatedmates dot net, Instagram or Twitter, Twitter fatedmates, Instagram fatedmates pod.

Sarah MacLean 1:55:54 / #
We love you. We do love you. Bye guys. Bye, everybody.

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11: Woof. Hope Your Headphones Didn't Fall Out! - Lothaire

Lothaire is here! We’re so excited, we don’t know what to do with ourselves, but FYI, this is a longer episode than usual -- so get ready! We're talking morality chain romance, how Lothaire is a pure ass but incredibly funny, and how Ellie is pretty much the only mate he could ever have. Also, we love Nix & Lothaire a lot.

Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, please leave us a like or a review.

In two weeks, one of our favorite people, Sierra Simone, is joining us to talk about The Full Kresley, and MacRieve! It's going to be a great time, we promise. Get MacRieve at Amazon, B&N, Apple Books, Kobo, or from your local Indie.

Show Notes

Learn about tone-policing so you won't make Jen mad.

Maybe we haven't recommended audiobook narrator Robert Petkoff to you enough.

Justine Eyre is the audiobook narrator who was nominated for an Audie for Sarah's book Never Judge a Lady by her Cover.

Love Between the Covers is an amazing documentary about romance, and you might be able to find it on Netflix.

Everyone knows the difference between hardback and paperback books, but learn the difference between mass-market and trade paperbacks.

During the Lothaire bus tour, Kresley wrote her fans this Facebook letter about the experience.

Paul Marron is a very handsome man.

The morality chain trope. 0 Other famous series with villains-turned-heroes include Lisa Kleypas's Wallflowers (Devil in Winter), Elizabeth Hoyt's Maiden Lane (Duke of Sin), and Sarah's Scandal & Scoundrel (Day of the Duchess).

Italy discovers what happens when everyone is raising a mammone.

Lothaire breaks his life up into tasks, sort of like Hugh Grant in About a Boy.

When Robert Downey Jr. starred as Sherlock Holmes, he can forecast the moves his opponents will make in a fight.

On Twitter, Melanie did a very thorough count of all the times Lothaire punched a wall.

Lothaire is very funny. Andie Christopher, friend of the pod, is very pro his cock slapping gnomes joke.

Old Friends is a very sweet song by Simon & Garfunkle, even if you aren't learning to play the ukulele.

Check out the Romance Sparks Joy read-along on Twitter and Facebook. Get M. Malone's Bad Blood for the April 15th Read!

MacRieve will be next, and Sierra Simone will be joining us!

Lost Limb Count

Arms and Hands (7)

  1. Conrad cuts off his own hand with a rusty axe so he escape the "witched" chains his brothers locked him in. (Dark Needs at Night's Edge)
  2. Cadeon has both of his hands burned off in the same scene where he loses an eye. There's description of what Cade's baby fingers look like as they are re-growing. It's...kinda gross. (Dark Desires After Dusk)
  3. Sebastian pulverizes most of his right arm during the Hie. He regenerates. (No Rest For the Wicked)
  4. Lucia peels all the skin off from her hand in order to free herself from some handcuffs. (Pleasure of a Dark Prince)
  5. In order to retrieve the ring from La Dorada , Lothaire cuts off her finger. (Pleasure of a Dark Prince)
  6. Lanthe and Carrow cut off Fegley's hand so they can use his thumb to unlock their torques. He's later killed. (Demon from the Dark)
  7. After receiving Lothaire's heart in a box, Ellie cuts off her middle finger and sends it to him. (Lothaire)

Chest and Torso (7)

  1. Omort severs Rydstrom's spine and punches through his torso in a fight. Sabine saves him and enlists Hag to help heal him. (Kiss of a Demon King)
  2. Lucia's neck is broken. She regenerates. (Pleasure of a Dark Prince)
  3. On Torture Island, Regin,
  4. MacRieve,
  5. and Brandr are vivisected. It's pretty terrible. (Dreams of a Dark Warrior)
  6. Declan's skin is peeled off by the Neoptera as a child. (Dreams of a Dark Warrior)
  7. Lothaire rips out his own heart and sends it to Ellie in a box. (Lothaire)

Head, Face, and Eyes (5)

  1. Bowen loses an eye and most of his forehead during the Hie. Mariketa has cursed him and he can't heal until he returns to her. (Wicked Deeds on a Winter's Night)
  2. Cadeon loses an eye and part of his forehead and hair when fighting. It all regenerates. (Dark Desires After Dusk)
  3. During a rugby match, Garreth has his teeth knocked out and swallows them. (Pleasure of a Dark Prince)
  4. Lothaire kicks out La Dorada's remaining eye and throws her over a cliff. (Dreams of a Dark Warrior)
  5. In the Bloodroot Forest, the tree grows over Lothaire's lips and tongue. (Lothaire)

Horns (2)

  1. Cadeon cuts off his own horns to prove to Holly that he is worthy of being her mate. She tells him to let them grow back (Dark Desires After Dusk)
  2. Malkolm is captured by his enemies in Oblivion and taken to the city of Ash. The publicly cut off his horns and then intend to kill him, but Carrow saves him. (Demon from the Dark)

Legs and Feet (3)

  1. Lachlain tears off his own leg to reach Emma. He regenerates. (A Hunger Like No Other)
  2. Mariketa's skull is fractured and her leg is torn from her body. She heals herself after Bowen lays on the ground. Ivy grows over her and heals her. (Wicked Deeds on a Winter's Night)
  3. Thronos is chasing Melananthe and loses a foot when a portal closes on it. (Kiss of a Demon King)

Beheading as a Romantic Gesture (4)

  1. The first time Garreth spies Lucia, it's when she shoots an arrow and beheads a kobold. He notices that it's "a fantastical shot" and he's super into it. Later, he helps her pick up the head because he's a real gentleman like that. (Pleasure of a Dark Prince)
  2. Later in the book, they are under attack from vampires and Lucia asks him to help. Garreth promises to "give her their throats" and beheads two vampires. But she's upset about it because of a previous bad experience with cannibalism. (Pleasure of a Dark Prince)
  3. Malkolm beheads men that attacked Carrow in Oblvion, and he throws them to prove he's a worthy mate. (Demon from the Dark)
  4. Declan fights and beheads several creatures as they escape Torture Island, including squeezing one dude so hard his eyes pop out and then he twists his head off. (Dreams of a Dark Warrior)

Beheading as a Non-Romantic Gesture (2)

  1. Ellie cuts off Lothaire's head, leaving a slender 1/8 of an inch left. It was kind of an accident, but he deserved it. (Lothaire)
  2. In the fight with Ruelle, MacRieve and Munro's mother is beheaded by a envenomed vampire boy. Their father then beheads the vampire. Ruelle is also killed. (MacRieve)

Maybe?

  1. Does Garreth's losing his connection with his mortal soul count? (Pleasure of a Dark Prince)
  2. When Soroya inhabited Ellie's body, she subjected her to a full Brazilian wax. Ellie doesn't realize it's happened until she takes control of her body again. (Lothaire)
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7: Ghost Pepper Town: Warlord Wants Forever & Untouchable

We’re tackling the novellas this week, and finishing up the Wroth Brother Quartet with The Warlord Wants Forever (Nikolai) & Untouchable (Murdoch), as well as their incredible Valkyrie mates.

This episode, we’re talking about Myst’s weird chain, Danii’s loneliness, the responsibility of authors to readers, to themselves, to the text, and to literary history, and the way Untouchable hints at the enormous world that IAD is about to become.

Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, please leave us a like or a review.

In two weeks, we’re back to the Lykae, with one of our favorite books — Pleasures of a Dark Prince, the last book in the first arc of the IAD series (this begins at the same time as A Hunger Like No Other). Garreth MacRieve, prince of the Lykae clan and Lucia the Huntress — the greatest archer of all time.

Show Notes

The Wroth Brothers are dreamy, and here are the books the feature Nikolai, Sebastian, Conrad, and Murdoch.

Take a look at the IAD Ranking Spreasheet of Wonder from the Wicked Wallflowers Podcast.

Sarah refers to our novella episode, but she means the Holiday Romances episode where we had a long discussion of the novellas as a form.

Jen collected some comparison screenshots from the original (A) and revised (B) versions of The Warlord Wants Forever. The two versions of the scene after the chain is broken; The two versions of the first time they have sex; and the two versions of Nix naming herself.

Dubcon romances have main characters who agree to sex play featuring "dubious consent."

A little more about the versions of Whitney, My Love. You can still find original versions on eBay or Amazon, but you'll pay more for them.

Jen mentions Eric Selinger at DePaul. He teaches classes on Romance at DePaul, which is local for her. SADLY, they don't have PhD programs. But you can read more academic romance talk at a blog called Teach Me Tonight.

The Hello Stranger review at Smart Bitches calls out the Orientalism in the novel, and features Lisa Kleypas' response.

The Memory Hole is a reference to 1984 by George Orwell.

A little more about why sheikh and Native American romances are problematic.

A definitive list of the qualities, skills, and powers of vampires in literature and pop culture. At some point, Jen's going to add IAD.

Retcon stands for "retroactive continiuity" and here's a great primer about it from the best dictionary, Merriam-Webster.

In two weeks, we'll be discussing Garreth & Lucia in Pleasure of a Dark Prince.

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4: A+, Would Risk Haunting: Dark Needs at Night's Edge

Book 4 is here and so are ghosts! We’re talking Dark Needs at Night's Edge, starring Conrad (the most tortured of the Wroth vampire brothers) and Néomi (the ghost trapped in the house where he’s held hostage while he dries out). We’ll cover heroines with agency, menstrual cycles, virgin heroes and the importance of family. Also, Jen is on about the moon again.   

Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, please leave us a like or a review. 

Our next read (in two weeks) will be Dark Desires After Dusk — the beginning of the Rage-Demonarchy duology, featuring Cadeon Woede, who is forced to choose between familial loyalty and his human (or is she?!) fated mate, brilliant mathematician, Holly.

Get ready for the read along at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books or your local indie. Also, the Audible versions of IAD are on sale right now -- and WORTH EVERY PENNY! Listen on Audio!

Show Notes

- Ghosts are a human problem and preoccupation.

- According to the Washington Post, "nearly half of the women who were murdered during the past decade were killed by a current or former intimate partner." Huge content warnings for everything in this article.

- The Flame and the Flower, Shanna, and some of Sarah's thoughts about rape in romance.

- We talk about Id a lot on Fated Mates, and we use it as a shorthand for our most primal, deep-rooted desires.

- "All happy families resemble one another; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way" is the famous first line of Anna Karenina. This New York Times article about the many Tolstoy translations is fascinating.

- Kresley Cole isn't the only one to use the menstrual cycle as a symbol; but others wonder why menstruation is almost always absent from fiction.

- A crescent moon (or "sliver moon" as Neomi calls it) is never up at midnight. Literally never.

- Jen rants a lot about first person narration a lot on Twitter, but it's super OTT, so just read this thread about first person narration that was started by Rebekah Weatherspoon.

- Shortly after they recoreded this episode, Jonathan Franzen stanned for third person narration and Jen realized she's just a handmaiden to the patriarchy.

- Jen strongly recommends Heavy: An American Memoir by Kiese Laymon. She saw Kiese Laymon being interviewed by Lolly Bowean at the Chicago Humanities Festival, and it was amazing.

- All people deserve birth control that's right for them.

- Some romance readers love breaking in the ponies with a virgin hero.

- Arguably, agency is the most important character trait.

- There are 45 cemetaries in New Orleans, 31 are historic, and 5 are listed in the National Register of Historic Places.

- If you're planning to write a sitcom, know the formula.

- In IAD, it's Thrane's Key; it Harry Potter, it's a time turner.

- Get yourself some IAD ringtones.

- Holly Ashwin and Cadeon Woede are up next in Dark Desires After Dusk.

Lost Limb Count

Legs (2)

  1. Lachlain tears off his own leg to reach Emma. He regenerates. (A Hunger Like No Other)
  2. Mariketa's skull is fractured and her leg is torn from her body. She heals herself after Bowen lays on the ground. Ivy grows over her and heals her. (Wicked Deeds on a Winter's Night)

Arms (1)

  1. Sebastian pulverizes most of his right arm during the Hie. He regenerates. (No Rest For the Wicked) ** Eyes (1)**

  2. Bowen loses an eye and most of his forehead during the Hie. Mariketa has cursed him and he can't heal until he returns to her. (Wicked Deeds on a Winter's Night)

Hands (1)

  1. Conrad cuts off his own hand with a rusty axe so he escape the "witched" chains his brothers locked him in. (Dark Needs at Night's Edge)
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2: The Best Led Zeppelin Song is by Pink Floyd: No Rest for the Wicked

We’re two books in this week, reading No Rest for the Wicked, starring Kaderin the Cold-hearted and Sebastian Wroth, participating in the Talisman Hie…Kresley’s version of The Amazing Race.

Sarah & Jen cover everything from pop-culture in romance novels to the lengths we’ll go for the people we love, and the immense trust required when we fall in love…all while marveling at the way Kresley sets the stage for a series that will subvert tropes and genres again and again.

Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, please leave us a like or a review.

Our next read (in two weeks) will be Wicked Deeds on a Winter’s Night — and the witches are coming! WDOAWN is the story of Bowen MacRieve (werewolf) and Mariketa the Awaited (witch)…and the book that really breaks open the wide world of IAD. We’ll be joined by the brilliant Adriana Herrera, and you won’t want to miss it. Get ready for the read along at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books or your local indie.

Show Notes

  • The Valkyeries in mythology, and maybe you didn't notice that "Val Hall" is a play on Valhalla.

  • Vampires in pop culture & literature.

  • Remember your high school English teacher talking about characters who are foils of each other? This is not to be confused with your algebra teacher talking about how to solve quadratic equations.

  • On Urban Dictionary, I want to kiss the person who defined Frigid it as "An outdated, Victorian term used to describe women who aren't interested in sex. Only used today by drunk men in bars to explain why the woman they attempted to pick up wasn't interested."

  • A wacky look at some potential real life examples of time travel.

  • Just out of curiosity, this is what you'll find if you google "Bad Ass Estonian General." IMPRESSIVE.

  • Sarah's wet noodle joke is part of a long literary tradition where vampires just need a good dose of viagra.

  • All about beta heros, cinnamon roll heroes, and a link to a lot of talk about the latter from Ana Coqui's November 2018's #RomBkLove.

  • Sarah mentions "the vampire chained to a bed" and she's talking about Conrad Wroth, the hero of Dark Needs at Night's Edge (book 4).

  • Just a brief review of birth control, how we use it, and why it is so important to women's rights.

  • In case you were wondering why Jen talked about "no one ever has to go to the bathroom." It's a thing. Sarah accused Jen of RUINING ROMANCE, but clearly that's not the case because here we are.

  • More about lightning and planes.

  • Chicago's Bubbly Creek. That's real. If you ever want to nerd out on this history, Jen recommends a book called Nature's Metropolis. Honestly, you really have no idea how fascinating grain elevators are.

  • The short and incomplete list of magical items introduced in this book: Kaderin gives the Furies armor that can't be pierced and a battle axe that can kill Lore beings without having to behead them. The New Zealand coven of Valkyeries has a choker that allows the person wearing it to sing a siren's song. No one knows what happend to the armband that makes the wearer feel overwhelming sexual desire. Amphitrite's tear is a bead that will heal any wound. The Blade of Honorius never misses its target. Thrane's Key was the time-traveling prize in this Hie, and at the end of the book, Riora gives Sebastian one to use at his discretion.

  • Deus Ex Machina is fun to say, but kind of a bummer when that's how an author gets her characters out of a jam.

  • All the cool vampires from the mid-2000s carry RAZR phones.

  • Diamonds are a construct, just like virginity.

  • Sarah is pro-Kardashian.

  • Bowen & Mariketa are coming up next, but the thing she was excited about at the end of that book actually happened at the end of Dark Needs at Night's Edge.

  • Swineherds vs. shepherds, and the only time Jen ever felt truly understood on Reddit.

  • The Battle of Evermore by Led Zeppelin, and if you think Jen wasn't dying to update Genius with this Kresley Cole reference, you don't know her at all. But maybe the video is more your speed.

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1: We're Gonna Come Back to Biting - A Hunger Like No Other

Sarah & Jen talk A Hunger Like No Other, why reading Alphas in 2018 is a tricky situation, how Kresley instantly changed the game with Lachlain MacRieve, and why Emma's bite sets the standard for the whole series.

Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, a like would be awesome!

Our next read (in two weeks) will be No Rest for the Wicked — the story of Sebastian Wroth (vampire) and Kaderin the Cold-Hearted (valkyrie), and the beginning of the IAD Amazing Race mini-arc!

Show Notes

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