S03.20: Romance Families
It's the holidays and we're talking family romances because many of us are with our families or thinking about them this week. No matter whether you have a perfect family life or one that's a bit more of a journey, romances focusing on families have been around from the beginning -- this week, we're talking royal houses like the Westmorelands and the Malorys, the LeVeqs and the Montgomeries, and the Holmeses and the Hathaways. We also talk a lot about our own families...which was unintended, but there it is.
You still have time to buy the Fated Mates Best of 2020 Book Pack from our friends at Old Town Books in Alexandria Virginia, and get the seven traditionally published books on the list, a Fated Mates sticker and a candle from the bookstore! Order here!
Thank you, as always, for listening! If you are up for leaving a rating or review for the podcast on your podcasting app, we would be very grateful! For the next week or so, we've got a lot of fun stuff in the hopper -- be on the lookout for a few extra episodes!
And, if you're celebrating this week -- Merry Christmas!
Show Notes
Richard Gere wasn’t old when he filmed Pretty Woman, even though he was going gray.
Samantha Jaxon posted a very upsetting TikTok, and that's all we have to say about that.
The days of the big and small envelope in college admissions are over, but they do have the Common App and that seems nice.
Maybe, you too, would like a karaoke microphone for your future weather-person.
The 1987 movie Roxanne with Steve Martin and Daryl Hannah is a Cyrano retelling, and it has lots of very funny jokes and one-liners.
There is one more phone-banking opportunity on January 4, 2021. You should join us!
Bridgerton drops on December 25th, along with Wonder Woman 1984. Virgin River is another Netflix show based on a romance series.
Just a heads up about the photo array, I’m just including the first book of a family series because otherwise it will be overwhelming!
70s and 80s Old School romance series with families include: the Malorys by Johanna Lindsey, The Montgomerys and Taggerts by Jude Deveraux, and the Westmorelands by Judith McNaught.
90s families: the LeVeq family by Beverly Jenkins, The Cynster family by Stephanie Laurens, the Rocking M series by Elizabeth Lowell.
2000s families: Brenda Jackson’s Westmoreland family, the Essex Sisters by Eloisa James, The Holmes Brothers by Farrah Rochon, and the Hathaways by Lisa Kleypas.
2010s families: The Blackshear family by Cecilia Grant, The Ravenels by Kleypas, the Duke’s Daughters by Megan Frampton, the Mackenzie series by Jennifer Ashley, the Greene sisters in the Uptown Girls series by Joanna Shupe, the Talbot sisters in Sarah’s Scandal and Scoundrel series, the von Hasenberg sisters in the Consortium Rebellion series by Jessie Mihalik, the Hidden Legacy series by Ilona Andrews, and the Sullivans by Bella Andre.
Brenda Jackson was the first Black romance author to hit the New York Times bestseller list with the book Irresistible Forces in 2008. It's not a Westmoreland book, but the Westmoreland series is currently 30+ books and growing.
S03.19: The Secret Diaries of Miss Miranda Cheever by Julia Quinn: Because everyone else is doing the Bridgertons
BRIDGERTON is nearly here! Make sure you have batteries in your remote and your Netflix subscription is up to date, because on 12/25, Julia Quinn’s Bridgerton series is coming to your TV courtesy of Shonda Rhimes! We are EXTREMELY EXCITED, and in honor of the series, we’re reading Sarah’s favorite Julia Quinn romance which, *surprise!* isn’t a Bridgerton book!
If you want Bridgerton deep dives, do not miss the series at Learning the Tropes with our amazing friends Erin & Clayton. But we’re reading The Secret Diaries of Miss Miranda Cheever, and we’ve got a LOT to say!
Content note: This book and episode discusses miscarriage and pregnancy.
You still have time to buy the Fated Mates Best of 2020 Book Pack from our friends at Old Town Books in Alexandria Virginia, and get the seven traditionally published books on the list, a Fated Mates sticker and a candle from the bookstore! Order here!
Thank you, as always, for listening! If you are up for leaving a rating or review for the podcast on your podcasting app, we would be very grateful! Next week, we’ve got an interstitial, and the following week…honestly, who knows? It’s December! It could be ANYTHING!
Show Notes
Can we brag for a minute? Our #FatedStates phone bank appeared in the Washington Post this week! Also, if you're looking for phone banking opportunites, we have one tonight 12/16 at 5 central, and another on 1/4/2021. Join us.
December 25th is going to be a great day. Bridgerton drops on Netflix and Wonder Woman 1984 will be on HBO Max.
If you want a podcast tackling all of the Bridgerton books, check out Learning the Tropes. Sarah was on the episode for Sir Philip with Love, which is her favorite. Jen’s favorite is The Viscount Who Loved Me, and if it’s yours maybe you’d like a “mallet of death” t-shirt from Linda. Her shop is on hiatus right now, but she'll be back in the new year.
Here’s the Ted talk with Elizabeth Gilbert, author of Eat, Pray, Love.
Does Olivia get her own book? Of course she does, it’s called What Happens in London.
Sarah’s favorite Jane Austen is Emma. Jen’s favorite Jane Austen is none of them.
If you want to see some house party games in action, watch Season 4 of the Crown.
Megan Markle recently wrote about her miscarriage in the New York Times. Jen wrote about miscarriage back when she blogged for The Book Queen, and it includes discussion of Sarah’s book, Day of the Duchess.
The book with all the former heroes sharing their childbirth war stories is...well, we don't remember. If you do, please tell us!
S03.18: Julie Garwood Interstitial: Damnit, Sara! (Not our Sarah!)
This week, we tried something a little different—recording a live interstitial episode! We’re talking about Jen’s formative queen, Julie Garwood, and we dig into dialogue, alphas who are instantly gone for their heroines, heroines who tame wild animals, arranged marriages between children, and why every Garwood historical feels medieval whether or not it actually is.
We recorded this episode live during a Fated States postcard-writing party to get out the vote for the January 5th runoff election in Georgia. If you’re a Georgia voter, please vote for Jon Ossoff and Reverend Raphael Warnock, and let’s finish what we started with the blue wave! If you’re up for it, please consider joining us for a phonebanking session on the evening of January 4th!
Next week, in advance of the launch of the Bridgerton series on Netflix (coming December 25th!), we’re reading Sarah’s favorite Julia Quinn novel, The Secret Diaries of Miss Miranda Cheever. Get it at Amazon, B&N, Kobo, Apple or at your local indie via bookshop.org.
Show Notes
Fated States is gearing up to phone bank on the evening of Jan 4 from 5-7 central time. Join us if you can!
Sarah mentioned seeing Berkley editor Cindy Hwang on a panel--it doesn't appear to have been recorded, but here is the description of the panel.
In Sarah’s OSRBC facebook group, there’s a longstanding search for a book where two people are on a beach and a wave throws them together, and then “oops they’re boning.” A few folks have suggested that maybe it was Pirate by Fabio. So check it out. His co-writer (a ghost writer is when they are unnamed) is Eugenia Rielly.
A teenage horror/romance that both Jen and Kelly loved was called The Ghosts of Departure Point. Probably came from the Scholastic Book Club, if we’re being honest.
In case you’re wondering, the copyright page will tell you if you’re holding a first printing or first edition. Here’s a bunch of people talking about why the edges of paperbacks were dyed.
RT Book Reviews and the RT conference once had Julie Garwood and Jude Deveraux on stage at the same time, and YouTube has the video! When Coronavirus is over, I highly recommend going to KissCon.
Nora Roberts is our Queen and last week a poor unfortunate soul named Debra learned that the hard way.
Obviously, Luke grew up on Tatooine. Hoth was that ice planet place, which is why the women in the Ice Planet Barbarians series call their new home Not-Hoth.
We’d be interested in hearing your interpretation of The Bechdel Test. Jen thinks the women can still talk about men AS LONG AS they also talk about other stuff, but Sarah thought it required no discussion of men at all which is pretty tough to find in romance. FWIW, Jen mentioned it in regards to The Bride because Jamie is so isolated and largely without women friends.
We like prologues and epilogues here at Fated Mates, but we understand not everyone agrees.
The feud between the families in The Gift is “like the Montagues and the Capulets, but worse.” Speaking of which, Kate Clayborn’s upcoming book, Love At First, is an homage to Romeo and Juliet.
This isn't exactly about the life expectancy in Scotland was in 1100, but it's close enough.
Vanessa Riley’s site has a great explainer about Black people during the Regency on her site. We talked about the Carribean in the Regency when we read Gentle Rogue.
It wasn't a "rip off" of Home Alone, it was just an allusion. Similarly, Nathan's whip reminded Sarah of Indiana Jones.
Are these books on audio? Why yes they are and Jen listened to The Bride in between recording and release of the episode and greatly enjoyed it.
Next week, we're reading The Secret Diaries of Miss Miranda Cheever by Julia Quinn
S03.17: The Hating Game by Sally Thorne: Lucy! Obviously Danny didn't send the roses!
There aren’t many recent romances you can point to and categorically label as game changers, but Sally Thorne’s The Hating Game definitely fits this bill. We talk about all the ways we love it, about sparkling dialogue and witty writing and what makes a romcom and how this book changed the cover game for a generation of romance. Oh, and yes, we get to the bottom (jk, there is no bottom) of Jen’s issues with first-person present.
You still have time to buy the Fated Mates Best of 2020 Book Pack from our friends at Old Town Books in Alexandria Virginia, and get the seven traditionally published books on the list, a Fated Mates sticker and a candle from the bookstore! Order before December 5th for Christmas delivery!
Thank you, as always, for listening! If you are up for leaving a rating or review for the podcast on your podcasting app, we would be very grateful!
Next week, we’ve got an interstitial, and the following week, in advance of the launch of the Bridgerton series on Netflix, we’re reading Sarah’s favorite Julia Quinn novel, The Secret Diaries of Miss Miranda Cheever. Get it at Amazon, B&N, Kobo, Apple or at your local indie via bookshop.org.
Fated States
Show Notes
Bridget Jones’s Diary came out in 1996 and the movie came out in 2001.
Enemies to Lovers is a completely beloved romance trope. Rivals to lovers lives within the larger trope and is very fun because it is often a perfectly matched pair on an even playing field. Sarah wrote Brazen & the Beast after being inspired by The Hating Game.
Here’s what we mean when we say situational comedy.
Jen hates present tense, but of course everyone should write what’s right for them.
Is it chick lit or is it women’s fiction? Why do these labels even exist? Just go back and read The Girl’s Guide to Hunting and Fishing or Good in Bed by Jennifer Weiner.
We don’t talk about voice that much, but maybe we should.
There was a short lived Harlequin chick lit line called Red Dress Ink in 2001.
Here’s what Jen teaches her kids about characterization.
The Slate article about interiors and a very thorough rebuttal from Felicia Davin.
We talked about another hero who came up through Twilight fanfic.
If you like a scene where one main character tells off the family on behalf of their beloved, you should read Her Naughty Holiday by Tiffany Reisz.
In two weeks, we'll be reading The Secret Diaries of Miss Miranda Cheever. We are getting ready for Bridgerton and Wonder Woman 1984.
If you're interested in the Fated Mates Best of 2020 book pack and you want it delivered by Christmas, make sure you order it by 12/5.
S03.16: Best Romance Novels of 2020
The Best Romance Novels of 2020!
It’s the best and worst task of the year for us, because we read so many AMAZING books over the course of the year, and choosing ten and not one hundred is hard for us, ok? But here they are — ten gorgeous books that we adored—books with badass heroines, larger-than-life heroes, brilliant structure, and outstanding writing.
Buy the Fated Mates Best of Book Pack in one fell swoop from our friends at Old Town Books in Alexandria Virginia, and get the seven traditionally published books on the list, a Fated Mates sticker and a candle from the bookstore! Support fabulous authors and a woman-owned independent bookstore all at once!
Thank you, as always, for listening! If you are up for leaving a rating or review for the podcast on your podcasting app, we would be very grateful!
Next week, we get back to doing what we do best: Reading Romance! We’re deep-diving on Sally Thorne’s The Hating Game. Get it at Amazon, B&N, Kobo, Apple or at your local indie via bookshop.org.
The Best Romance Novels of 2020
Fated States
Interested in phone banking or writing postcards to voters in Georgia? Join us for our upcoming Fated States events: phone banking on 12/2/20 and 1/4/2021 and postcards on 12/5/2020.
Show Notes
Consider buying a Fated Mates pack of 7 of our 10 books (it doesn't include the self-published books) from Old Town Books in Alexandria, Virgina. You can also check out our Bookshop link.
Can you believe that RWA debacle was 11 months ago?
So you want to hear us talk about A Heart of Blood and Ashes, Like Lovers Do, Queen Move, or The Devil of Downtown?
Cold War history is fascinating. Not only all the nuclear stuff, but Sarah's story about K Blows Top sounds fascinating.
Some LitFic novels that play around with dual storylines are The French Lieutenant’s Woman, Possession, and the more romance adjacent Secret History of the Pink Carnation.
All about danger banging. And of course there’s a button for that.
Tammany Hall is often used as a historical example of total police corruption.
Up next week, we'll be reading The Hating Game by Sally Thorne.
S03.14: Our 100th Episode! Fated Mates Live
ONE HUNDRED EPISODES!
You’ve seen us through Immortals After Dark, through Books that Blooded Us, and through a presidential election, so if there was any doubt that you’re stuck with us, put that right out of your mind! We love you so much for listening…and we hope you have as much fun listening to this episode as we had recording it!
Thanks to Tracey Livesay, Andie J Christopher, Kate Clayborn, Christina Lauren, Adriana Herrera, Nisha Sharma and Joanna Shupe for joining us, and to Steve Ammidown for popping in to say hi!
Next week, we have an interstitial coming, and the following week, we’re back on read alongs with Sally Thorne’s The Hating Game! Get it at Amazon, B&N, Kobo, Apple or at your local indie via bookshop.org.
Show Notes
In between when we recorded and when you're listening, something great happened.
How did Hollywood Squares work? What did the theme song sound like? What does Whoopi Goldberg have to do with it?
Fated States will be back! One of our dedicated phone bankers and the head of the OSRBC-IAD book discussion, Caroline, had an amazing experience when she was phone banking the week before the election. And we are not at all jealous about her amazing gift basket from Kresley Cole!
Check out Milla Vane on the Wicked Wallflowers podcast.
Andie Christopher hosts Drunk Romance History on her Instagram feed every Saturday and it’s hilarious. Sarah joined her Saturday after a full day of Election drinking to talk Suddenly You.
Do you know the book where a wave causes accidental penetration for a couple on a beach? NEITHER DO WE!
Here’s the link to all the slides for Fuck, Marry, Kill and Would Derek Craven. And here are all the Title Smash slides.
We invented a holiday. No big.
We love Philadelphia. Gritty was an unexpected hero of the 2020 election. Now you know all about the Philadelphia Left.
The Danielle Steele thread from Steve Ammidown at the Browne Pop Culture Library.
We really need to talk about the 80s blockbusters The Thorn Birds, Clan of the Cave Bear, and Flowers in the Attic (and powdered donuts).
It was Buffy and Spike in the mausoleum, not Buffy and Angel.
We can't find the TikTok of Paul Rudd and his son, but instead we'll discuss if anyone knows where Michael J. Fox got his cloning machine?
We’ll leave you to contemplate the whole “hero pooping” theory on your own, but we all know for sure that Elvis poops.
S03.09: Christina Lauren on FanFiction and Romance: Blissward is How it Should Be
It’s joy month! We’ve got two of our very favorites with us — Christina Lauren is here with us to discuss fan fiction, romance, their romance origin stories, what they love about fic and how fic makes romance better! We talk about about a thousand books and authors, and do a little giggling too, so strap in!
We’re putting read alongs on hold for a bit to spend the next few weeks hanging out with some of our favorite people and talking about books and tropes that give us joy, so we hope you’ll join us and keep a pen handy so you can add to your TBR list as needed!
Also! please join us for a Fated States phonebanking session with Indivisible.org on Saturday — it’s so fun! We love seeing so many of your amazing faces there, hanging out, and lifting each other up through absolute anxiety! Please join us, fellow Fated Maters, and special guests for Fated States Phonebanking Part 3 this Saturday, October 10th at 3pm Eastern to call Wisconsin! It’s easy, not scary, and there will be prizes!
Thank you, as always, for listening! If you are up for leaving a rating or review for the podcast on your podcasting app, we would be very grateful!
Show Notes
Christina Lauren has a new, delightful holiday romance out this week! Find In a Holidaze at Amazon, B&N, Kobo, Apple or at your local indie.
When we recorded, the wildfire situation was particularly grim in California, and it’s still a huge problem facing many Western states. We hope you're all being safe out there.
A brief overview of CLo’s story from fandom to bestselling authors. The first of their published books came from Christina's fic "The Office," and was published as Beautiful Bastard. Sarah loves it a lot.
Wonder Woman 1984 has been postponed because of COVID, and according to the director the film is best seen in a theater. It is not because Robert Pattinson got COVID (He's back to business now). Sarah loves the preview of the new Batman movie.
Our love of Days of Lives couples Jack & Jennifer and Patch & Kayla is eternal and everlasting. (Ps. Jen's favorite scene is not in that video, her search continues.)
The Twilight fandom was vast, as we discussed in this episode. And there are important reasons why many folks are drawn to fandom. Last summer, Alexis Daria and Adriana Herrera talked about fanfiction and fandom on Instagram Live, and it's a great watch.
Christina and Lauren mentioned “canon” and “AU” and AO3 and livejournal and fandom bootcamp and maybe you want a primer on some fanfic terms.
Maybe you also need a primer on a cinnamon roll character.
These hugely popular romance writers came up through fanfic: Sally Thorne, Alice Clayton, Nina Bocci, Tara Sue Me, Amanda Weaver, Rebekah Weatherspoon, Helena Hunting, Daisy Prescott, EL James, and Ruth Clampett. Present-tense, stream of consciousness flow, and intense character work are some of the hallmarks of fandom writing, and some of those stylistic choices have influenced mainstream fiction in multiple genres, including romance.
Did you miss the community experience of The Submissive? Lucky for you, it's now available as a stand alone novel, and the next books in the series The Dominant and The Training also started as fic.
Christina and Lauren and Nina Bocci worked on the Fandom Gives Back fundraiser to benefit Alex’s Lemonade Stand.
Jen said she loves Beautiful Player, but honestly no one will be surprised that she got the title wrong and her real favorite is Beautiful Stranger. Just read all of them. You won't be disappointed.
The question of who owns these stories and the legalities of fanfic is so interesting, and specifically the history of Fifty Shades of Grey as Fanfic.
As promised, a list of CLo recommend fics:
Tropic of Virgo by in.a.blue.bathrobe (aka Kira Gold)
The Blessing and the Curse by theblackarrow (Sally Thorne)
The Best I Ever Had by whatsmynomdeplume
Mr. Horrible by algonquinrt
Creature of Habit by ezrocksangel
The Art Teacher by spanglemaker9
Summer of Salt by lolapops
A Murmur of Fire in the Vein
Scotch, Gin, and the New Girl by wtvoc
S03.08: Serving Pleasure by Alisha Rai: He didn't buy curtains, so frankly it's on him.
This week, we’re talking about a book and author who has given both of us a whole lot of joy — Alisha Rai! We’re reading Serving Pleasure, which is the story of the most relatable of heroines and the outrageously hot painter who moves in next door! Voyeurism, sex positivity and family in romance are all on the table here. We love it.
We’re putting read alongs on hold for a bit to spend the next five weeks hanging out with some of our favorite people and talking about books and tropes that give us joy, so we hope you’ll join us and keep a pen handy so you can add to your TBR list as needed!
Also! We had our first Fated States phonebanking session with Indivisible.org on Saturday — it was great and we loved seeing so many of your amazing faces! Please join us, fellow Fated Maters, and special guests for Fated States Phonebanking Part 2 this Saturday, October 3rd at 3pm Eastern to call North Carolina! It’s easy, not scary, and there will be prizes!
Thank you, as always, for listening! If you are up for leaving a rating or review for the podcast on your podcasting app, we would be very grateful!
Show Notes
It was March of 2015 (a kinder, gentler time) when Jen first Sarah Wendell talking about Alisha Rai on NPR. Later that summer, Sarah put Serving Pleasure in her Washington Post romance column. It was the first self-published book ever reviewed in the Post.
Just this week, Carole Bell wrote about why readers don't pay enough attention to indie and self-published romance for Shondaland.
Pregnant people don't actually get the greatest treatment in the workplace, so thanks Akira.
Is it all that great to be an artist's muse?
S03.07: A Discussion with Julie Moody-Freeman from the Black Romance Podcast
Two episodes in one week! We are doing what we can to take care of you, Fated Maters!
This week, we’ve got Julie Moody-Freeman, professor, self-proclaimed romance nerd, and host of the new “Black Romance Podcast” with us! We’re freewheeling about the importance of oral history, Black romance, romance and academia, her life as a romance reader, her favorite books and authors, and her dream interviews. Subscribe to the Black Romance Podcast at Apple, Overcast, Spotify, or your favorite podcasting service.
(The audio on this one isn’t up to our usual standards. Sorry about that. We’ll do better next time. -Eric)
We’re back on our regular Wednesday schedule next week, and with a deep dive on Alisha Rai’s Serving Pleasure, a fantastic erotic romance. Find it at Amazon, B&N, Kobo, Apple Books or Bookshop.org.
Also, we had our first Fated States phonebanking session with Indivisible.org this week — it was great and we loved seeing so many of your amazing faces! Please join us, fellow Fated Maters and special guests for Fated States Phonebanking Part 2 on Saturday, October 3rd at 3pm Eastern to call North Carolina!
Show Notes
This week, we interview Julie Moody-Freeman, a professor of African and Diaspora Studies at DePaul University. She's the host of the Black Romance Podcast. Julie wrote a chatper in the newly released Routledge Companion to Popular Romance Fiction.
The Black Romance Podcast is an oral history podcast which has interviewed some of the greatest voices in Black romance both past and present.
If you're interested readings some books of non-romance oral history, Jen recommends Voices from Chernobyl, Tower Stories, and anything by Studs Terkel. You might also enjoy the podcast Bughouse Square, which pairs interviews from the Studs Terkel Radio Archives and Eve Ewing interviewing poeple today. It's terrific.
The era of the mall bookstore--Waldenbooks and B. Dalton-- is over. But then again, malls might be over.
Vivian Stephens was the woman who revolutionized the American cateogry romance. You should listen to her two-part interview on the Black Romance Podcast, read this terrific profile of her in Texas Monthly, and listen to us read and discuss some of her early aquistions with Steve Ammidown.
Julie teaches a class called Romance, Women, and Race at Depaul. On the reading list: Make it Last Forever by Gwyneth Bolton, Gabriel's Discovery by Felicia Mason, A Duke by Default by Alyssa Cole, Forbidden by Beverly Jenkins, and The Brightest Day Anthology.
Although Season One of the Black Romance Podcast will be coming to a close soon, she listed some of the women she'd love to interview: Shirley Hailstock, Donna Hill, and Rochelle Alers.
Rosalind Wells and Francis Ray are two Black romance trailblazers who are no longer with us.
Next week, we'll be reading Serving Pleasure by Alisha Rai.
S03.06: We Are Grateful For You - Freewheeling with Sarah & Jen
This is a tough week for everyone, so we did what we could do to make ourselves feel a little bit more ourselves despite existential despair—we recorded a podcast. We’re all over the place (we promise this won’t be a theme for the whole season!), but we recommend a TON of books, which is basically all we can do.
We’ve got another episode for you later this week, and next week, we’re deep diving on Alisha Rai’s Serving Pleasure, which is a fantastic erotic romance. Find it at Amazon, B&N, Kobo, Apple Books or Bookshop.org.
Also -- Sarah has a contemporary novella out September 15th! Preorder the Naughty Brits anthology, wherever you get your ebooks: Amazon, Nook, Kobo, Apple, or in print at bookshop.org.
Show Notes
Goodnight Stories for Rebel Girls is available wherever books are sold, and you can listen to the podcast wherever you listen to podcasts. The RBG episode is here.
You can watch a documentary about RBG, or read the Notorious RBG book, or wear the RBG dissent collar now.
RBG's "When there are nine," quote is: "When I'm sometimes asked 'When will there be enough {women on the Supreme Court}?' and I say 'When there are nine,' people are shocked. But there'd been nine men, and nobody's ever raised a question about that."
Tom Hardy might be James Bond and we're fine with it. Melissa did some great work pairing pictures of Tom Hardy as Sarah MacLean covers. Here's a thread of Henry Cavill as Sarah MacLean covers, too. Let it be known Sarah has the best readers around.
The Jurgen Klopp thread from comedian Laura Lexx is a thing of great beauty.
These Fifty Shades movies are terrible but we can't stop watching them and we don't understand it either, you guys.
Masquerades are great. We talked about how historicals do masquerades more than contemporaries, and we couldn't name any contemporaries with masquerades, but then Sarah immediately picked up the Dark Fairy Tales anthology, which is brand new, 99 cents, and in which all the stories are connected by a masque. You should get it. You deserve nice things.
Also, the fact that we didn't mention Sweet Ruin is causing Sarah some pretty deep shame.
You should wear your undies over your garters. Dita Von Teese confirms this. Apparently this is referred to as "The French Way."
TRANSCRIPT
Ani DiFranco Music Lyric 0:00 / #
My mother was a feminist, she taught me to see the road to ruin is paved with patriarchy. So, let the way of the women guide democracy. From plunder and pollution let mother earth be free. Feminism ain't about women. No, that's not who it is for. It's about a shifting consciousness that'll bring an end to war. So listen up you fathers, listen up you sons. Which side are you on now, which side are you on.
Sarah MacLean 0:38 / #
So we threw our plan out for the week.
Jennifer Prokop 0:40 / #
We did.
Sarah MacLean 0:42 / #
Cuz everything is terrible.
Jennifer Prokop 0:44 / #
Yeah. It's been a bad week.
Sarah MacLean 0:49 / #
Literally, the first thing I texted Jen last night was we got to do a podcast this week. We got to do an episode.
Jennifer Prokop 0:56 / #
Well, because it's September 19. We're recording and last night, Ruth Bader Ginsburg died.
Sarah MacLean 1:03 / #
So I sat on the floor of my bathroom for a little while and cried. And then I walked out of the bathroom and Eric was standing in the hallway. I said, "I feel like this is real existential. This is what existential despair feels like". And he said, "You only just got here."
Jennifer Prokop 1:22 / #
Yeah, there was this Onion article, I guess, it was a tweet. It was sort of like, man who thought he lost all hope realizes he'd really, like really? Now? And that was that was me. Right? I was like, oh.
Sarah MacLean 1:37 / #
But also we had planned to start Joy this week. As a podcast concept. And you know.
Jennifer Prokop 1:46 / #
Maybe...can I suggest that we talk about romance as solace this week, then?
Sarah MacLean 1:51 / #
Yeah. I mean, it's all part and parcel, right? As my mom would say. I don't know. What would we say? We are...I think we are sad. And scared, and mad. And pissed off.
Jennifer Prokop 2:15 / #
Yeah, we're angry. You know? Well, let's say welcome to Fated Mates. Before we move on, we should actually tell people what they're listening to.
Sarah MacLean 2:24 / #
I'm Sarah MacLean. I write romance novels, and I read romance novels.
Jennifer Prokop 2:29 / #
And I'm Jennifer Prokop. I am a romance reader and critic.
Sarah MacLean 2:34 / #
And we are here for you guys this week, because you're here for us this week. I woke up this morning to, a lot of tweets, and DMs. And I just want you guys to know I read a bunch of them out loud to Jen just now. And every one of them is making us feel better.
Jennifer Prokop 2:54 / #
Yeah. I guess what, you know what, here's one other thing I want to say before we start which is. This is like a thing we Ruth Bader Ginsburg dying is, I mean, she was an amazing woman, she, our democracy should not rest upon the life of one 87 year old white woman. This was also a week where we got some really shocking, not... maybe shocking is not the right word, but terrifying news about forced hysterectomies.
Sarah MacLean 3:24 / #
Horrible, monsterous news.
Jennifer Prokop 3:26 / #
Of women in detention by a doctor who is not even a doctor. And I think it's really important, you know, as two women who live in urban areas in blue states, this is, you know, there's a planned parenthood, I drive past all the time, my access to reproductive rights is not a question. That's not really true for women who live in red states. It's not true, where also, I think its not true for poor women. They are the ways in which reproductive rights have stratified based on your geography, based on your income, based on your race. You know, this has been a long time coming. And I think in some ways, I just want to say our existential fear and dread is because now it's everyone. Not just poor women, not just brown and black women, not just women in state, in rural states or rural areas. I mean, so it's really I think it's really hard.
Sarah MacLean 4:24 / #
And not just women.
Jennifer Prokop 4:25 / #
Not just women, right.
Sarah MacLean 4:28 / #
So, yeah, we're having we're having a, we're having a time of it, and I think so are a lot of you. So, we want to talk about how we move forward in this. So we're gonna do our best today. But if this is not a thing that you're ready to listen to, sure, maybe go back and listen to the Rune week episode. I am rereading "Sweet Ruin" for the 83rd time.
Jennifer Prokop 5:08 / #
Can we also talk about how amazing Ruth Bader Ginsburg was. So Little Romance and I one year went, and I dressed as Ruth Bader Ginsburg for Halloween. I, as you all know, teach in the middle school and Little Romance goes to my school. And he was like, "Well, I guess I'll go as a Supreme Court Justice, too." And then he asked a really interesting question, because kids are so funny. And I was like, "Well, you know, there's all these other dudes." And he said, "Well, which one is the most powerful?" I said, "Well, that would be Chief Justice John Roberts." And so he decided that that would be what he would tell people, I mean, he just wore like a black graduation robe. I will put the picture in show notes. It's amazing. Adorable. Um, he was like, "Yeah, I'll just tell everybody I'm John Roberts."
Sarah MacLean 5:55 / #
And imagine at the time you were like, "ugh", but now we're like, "Please God, make Roberts be the sane one in this mix."
Jennifer Prokop 6:04 / #
Yeah. Right.
Sarah MacLean 6:08 / #
Anyway. My Ruth Bader Ginsburg story is that I have a six year old girl, who is six years old in the age of "Good Night Stories for Rebel Girls", which is a really fantastic Kickstarter that became a book series. It was Kickstarted as a hardcover book that is gorgeous. It's a storybook, where it's 50 women throughout the ages from Cleopatra, and Grace O'Malley, a pirate from the 1500s, to Serena Williams, and Malala Yousafzai. And what's amazing is many of these women you have heard of, many of them you have not heard of. And each book, each story is one page long. And then on the facing page is this gorgeous illustration of the the person, whoever the person is. We Kickstarted the first one, and then of course it took off, and now there are I think, three books.
Jennifer Prokop 7:27 / #
That's awesome.
Sarah MacLean 7:28 / #
But they've also started a podcast called, "Good Night Stories for Rebel Girls". We will put links in show notes. I tweeted about it this morning. Because there is a Ruth Bader Ginsburg episode of the podcast, which is fabulous. And this is for like the parents out there. If you are looking for a way to explain Ruth Bader Ginsburg's life and legacy to littles. This podcast is really excellent. So it tells the story, it tells her story, her story of going to graduate school, of going to law school. And being a woman in law school and marrying Marty, and Marty getting cancer and her taking notes for him in class, all while making the Harvard Law Review. But it really is a, sort of, digestible story of Ruth Bader Ginsburg's whole life as a rebel girl.
Jennifer Prokop 8:22 / #
That's awesome.
Sarah MacLean 8:23 / #
And my daughter loves this podcast. And you know, there are all sorts of very, very cool women as part of this podcast. And she's always telling me about these cool women from the podcast. And one day, she came to me about two or three months ago, and she said, "Mom, have you heard of Ruth Bader Ginsburg?" And I said, "I have heard her". And she said, "She is really cool, isn't she?" And I was like, "She really, really is." She's probably listened to that episode of the podcast 25 times. So, we'll put links to it in show notes. It's a great podcast, even for big rebel girls like us.
Jennifer Prokop 9:19 / #
Yeah. I think it's amazing the way in which her life was really celebrated when she was still alive. Like the notorious RBG book or the RBG documentary.
Sarah MacLean 9:33 / #
The Ruth Bader Ginsburg workout book.
Jennifer Prokop 9:36 / #
Oh, yeah. Right. I mean, I had a friend of mine, my friend, she texted me this morning. She's like,' look, I just ordered it because if she could be a badass at that age, then I can be a badass at my age". And I was like, I like it. I like it. So I think there was a way in which we celebrated her life while it was still going.
Sarah MacLean 9:56 / #
Yeah, she knew we thought she was awesome. Which is cool. That's not...that's not something everybody gets, right? I mean, I'm real bummed that we made this poor woman hold together a democracy. At her age she should have been able to live out her golden years. Right? Anyway, it's rough out there everyone, so you want to be gentle with yourselves. And I guess that's where Jen is going with romance as solace. You know, last night, I was sitting on the couch and I was sort of, you know, thousand yard staring at the TV. And Eric looked at me and was like, "What can you do right now? Like, can you read a romance novel?"
Jennifer Prokop 10:47 / #
I love that.
Sarah MacLean 10:47 / #
Like it was medicinal. "Would you like bourbon? Would you like marijuana?"
Jennifer Prokop 10:54 / #
Straight shot. Right? No fooling around.
Sarah MacLean 10:56 / #
"Is there a book you can be reading right now?" And then he was like, " You're an insominac, Jen is an insomniac. Why don't you just record a podcast?" And I was like, "What is happening right now?" He was like casting at straws. What can we be doing? Um, but I think that, you know, that is the point, right? The romance novel. His instinct was, go read a romance novel, because I know they make you happy. And I did actually get into bed and I read half of a romance novel that I can't tell any of you about because it doesn't technically exist. But it's great. And then this morning, you know, I just feel like, today, all I want to do is crawl into bed now with "Sweet Ruin". And you know...cuddle.
Jennifer Prokop 11:49 / #
I think it's really interesting to think about, romance novel is solace, but also the ways in which we approach that, because for me, that's rereading, but it's also for many people, they have the--we joke about the break in case of emergency romance. Right? That one by a favorite author that you have never read that you are like holding for that time. And I will tell you I have never read the Lisa Kleypas with Cam.
Jennifer Prokop 12:26 / #
I have been holding that... like it's been on for years. Years, I have been waiting for like a day where I just know that I'm gonna need, need that and I feel like this might be the day. Oh, this might be the day.
Sarah MacLean 12:45 / #
That's a big day. Yeah. I mean, Kresley if you're listening right now, it would be a great time to drop "Munro."
Jennifer Prokop 12:56 / #
God, like Calgon take me away.
Sarah MacLean 13:00 / #
Kresley is like, "These motherfuckers."
Jennifer Prokop 13:02 / #
No, listen. No Kresley loves us.
Sarah MacLean 13:08 / #
Oh, my God. I mean, literally a second before we started recording, I read the tweet that announced--Thank you Twitter for just always taking care of me--someone made sure that I saw that it is it is unconfirmed, but rumored that Tom Hardy is about to become James Bond. And I was like, I'm having a heart attack. I'm MacRieve braining over here. Because I can't handle it. It's...the highs and lows are too much.
Jennifer Prokop 13:45 / #
You know what's really funny is.... I did last night think maybe I should watch a James Bond movie.
Sarah MacLean 13:49 / #
Because you're reading Lee Child!
Jennifer Prokop 13:51 / #
Handsome men blow things up is real solace to me.
Sarah MacLean 13:54 / #
I mean, Tom Hardy taking off his shirt and shooting things.
Jennifer Prokop 13:58 / #
Fine.
Sarah MacLean 13:58 / #
I mean, I'll allow it.
Jennifer Prokop 14:00 / #
He'll have to like roll up his sleeves. Sarah.
Sarah MacLean 14:03 / #
Also, you know what else gave me joy yesterday? Yesterday morning was a very high and low day for me, Jen.
Jennifer Prokop 14:11 / #
That thread!
Sarah MacLean 14:12 / #
You guys, I know. We're all just trying to find hope and joy.
Jennifer Prokop 14:19 / #
Listen coping mechanisms are fine.
Sarah MacLean 14:22 / #
I woke up yesterday morning to a magnificent reader named Melissa to discover that she had spent her evening the night before, and I hope you enjoyed yourself, Melissa. Finding photographs of Tom Hardy that she could pair with Sarah MacLean covers. And then thread was Tom Hardy as Sarah MacLean covers, and it was really, really crazy. "The Day of the Duchess"....
Jennifer Prokop 14:51 / #
"The Day of The Duchess" one is unreal.
Sarah MacLean 14:56 / #
He's such a dirtbag! We are putting that show notes. For sure.
Jennifer Prokop 15:00 / #
Maybe that's all show notes is gonna be.
Sarah MacLean 15:02 / #
What is that picture? The whole picture for this episode should be Tom Hardy as "Day of the Duchess".
Jennifer Prokop 15:07 / #
I can make that happen, I can do that. I have the power. Oh, you know all the chapter images this week will just be those from that.
Sarah MacLean 15:17 / #
Oh my god. So anyway, thanks so much somebody else had done Henry Cavill as Sarah MacLean covers the day before ... you are out there doing the Lord's work for me this week. So thank you. I mean, yeah, I pulled up that Jurgen Klopp, tweet thread last night I was on the phone with you and I'm gonna go read that Jurgen Klopp tweet--This is where I'm at you guys-- I'm finding old Twitter threads to like just suck out the marrow of joy. But you know, then tonight we're hanging out with our friends, we have a plan for tonight to hang out with our good friends and watch this dumb 50 Shades movie.
Jennifer Prokop 16:09 / #
I don't even care. Listen, I don't know that we've updated everyone.
Sarah MacLean 16:13 / #
I'm enjoying it more than I really should, I think.
Jennifer Prokop 16:15 / #
Okay, so we watched number two with everyone now. Okay, so wait here's --everyone-- I have a secret.
Sarah MacLean 16:21 / #
If they're not listening--it's a secret? Jen we have tens of thousands of listeners.
Jennifer Prokop 16:27 / #
No, no this part isnt a secret, we know this part, no listen. If you listen, we talked about...Sarah watched the first one with the RITA writers room.
Sarah MacLean 16:39 / #
Really we don't have to refer to them that way anymore. How about... let's do it this way. Okay, just name them.
Jennifer Prokop 16:45 / #
So Alexis Daria, Adriana Herrera...was LaQuette watching it the first time around?
Sarah MacLean 16:50 / #
No, but LaQuette's on the thread because she just likes to mock us.
Jennifer Prokop 16:54 / #
Her text notification the next morning must be insane. Nisha Sharma, Tracey Livesey, and then Andie Christopher.
Sarah MacLean 17:01 / #
And so, here's the fun thing. So Tracey is basically cruise directing this whole thing. You all know this if you listened to the Tracey episode, we talked about this. So she's cruise directing and Nisha comes in. I mean, wearing the full...I mean, 50 Shades head to toe, she's got you know, Christian Grey sneakers. And then we go through the first movie. We watch together, then Jen joins us for 50 Shades...Freed?
Jennifer Prokop 17:32 / #
Okay, so here was the thing...
Sarah MacLean 17:33 / #
No. Darker.
Jennifer Prokop 17:36 / #
I watched the first one on my own I was like, I gotta catch up so that next time they watch...
Sarah MacLean 17:40 / #
Tell everyone this is a confession.
Jennifer Prokop 17:42 / #
Okay, this actual part it's a confession. It's not a secret it's a confession. So
Sarah MacLean 17:46 / #
Jen is a traitorous betrayer.
Jennifer Prokop 17:48 / #
Right so Tracey and I watched the second one together.
Sarah MacLean 17:52 / #
Tracey is a traitorous betrayer.
Jennifer Prokop 17:55 / #
Cuz I was like, I'm kind of obsessed with this. I really want to watch the next one. And I had never read the books. So it was all new to me. Meanwhile, the entire time I was like, Tracey, does this happen in the book? Tracey? Does this happen in the book? Because she was like, "I don't know". It's fine. But, I did secretly watch the second one. And then we watched it all together. But tonight, I'm going in cold on 50 Shades Freed. Is that what it was called?
Sarah MacLean 18:19 / #
Allegedly.
Jennifer Prokop 18:20 / #
What do you mean? allegedly?
Sarah MacLean 18:21 / #
Allegedly.
Jennifer Prokop 18:22 / #
Oh you think I'm lying.
Sarah MacLean 18:22 / #
You lied to me once before. How can I ever trust you when it comes E.L. James? Jamie Dornan and his weird leprechaun head?
Jennifer Prokop 18:32 / #
And his bow tie!
Sarah MacLean 18:34 / #
Ok! I'm gonna ruin 50 Shades Darker for you guys. You ready? The masquerade ball? which everybody knows I love a masquerade. I mean...come on now. Every romance, right? Oh, we should talk about masquerades and like the promise of the masquerade. We've never done that. And that's a fun conversation.
Jennifer Prokop 18:50 / #
Right.
Sarah MacLean 18:50 / #
But I'm gonna ruin it first. So the 50 Shades masquerade in the second book. Like it's sexy, right? He gives her mask and then they go to his parents' house and then they like, do a lot of naughty stuff in his parents house which, Alexis Daria, was not on board, nor was Adriana Herrera, not on board with it. Not Okay. Um, but mainly Adriana is not okay through...I would say 80%.
Jennifer Prokop 19:19 / #
Okay, except for the amazing scene where he flips her.
Sarah MacLean 19:22 / #
Oh, the flip. Forget it. It's real hot.
Jennifer Prokop 19:25 / #
I rewatched that several times. I was like, how is there no GIF of this. And then Adriana was like, "sorry, I'm behind! I had to go back and watch that flip a few times".
Sarah MacLean 19:31 / #
Yeah Adriana just peaced out of the watch from all of us. And like went back to rewatch the flip, which is great. I mean, I support your choices. Anyway, we're watching it. And the masquerade comes on and you guys, Christian's bow tie in this masquerade scene is like a baby's bow tie. It's like a child's bow tie. And I literally throw into text thread--We have an ongoing text thread-- we're watching this and like, why is his bow tie so tiny? And then I kind of ruined it for Tracey, because she'd never noticed.
Jennifer Prokop 20:07 / #
And then you can't not know.
Sarah MacLean 20:09 / #
Now once I've said that to you, you can't not notice it's just a tiny little bow tie.
Jennifer Prokop 20:13 / #
I'm gonna admit something too. So I love a masquerade scene in a book, but I'm always like, how do these mfer's not fucking recognize each other?
Sarah MacLean 20:22 / #
The have to know? Right?
Jennifer Prokop 20:23 / #
Right? They have to know. And then we are watching it with me and Tracey -- sorry -- and I was like, who is this blonde woman talking to Christian? Is it her friend and she's like, no, it's a sister. And I was like, God, reader me is like, "How do they not recognize each other?" Watcher me is like, "Who the fuck is this? Again? She's got a mask on. I don't know."
Sarah MacLean 20:40 / #
Everybody's in a mask. They're just invisible now. Yes, it's except, except the hero always knows who the heroine is.
Jennifer Prokop 20:49 / #
Sure.
Sarah MacLean 20:50 / #
I mean, always.
Jennifer Prokop 20:52 / #
Always.
Sarah MacLean 20:53 / #
Cuz that is... I get the most positive response to the first line in "Daring of the Duke" of the masquerade from his point of view, because I think the first line of that chapter is like, he knew it was her the moment she entered.
Jennifer Prokop 21:06 / #
Right. And she doesn't think he knows.
Sarah MacLean 21:08 / #
Right and cuz she's like, masked. she's wearing a wig. She's like masked. He's like, doesn't matter. No, he's like, I smell you. Like he smells her. Fated Fucking Mates.
Jennifer Prokop 21:18 / #
I was just saying it's like that old category where the guy can smell pregnant women. What was it? What was that one?
Sarah MacLean 21:28 / #
"Warrior"! You guys. I'm gonna reread "Warrior" this week.
Jennifer Prokop 21:33 / #
See? There you go.
Sarah MacLean 21:34 / #
Today, because he can smell women pregnant.
Jennifer Prokop 21:37 / #
He'd definitely know how to identify someone at a masquerade.
Sarah MacLean 21:40 / #
For romance reasons.
Jennifer Prokop 21:42 / #
Here's the other thing -- I was thinking about several things...
Sarah MacLean 21:46 / #
I would... wait, I'm sorry. I want to go back to "Warrior" for a second. Because Nevada --the hero of "Warrior" who can smell women pregnant-- Elizabeth Lowell does some real solid foreshadowing work. Jennifer. Um, was that this episode? No different episode.
Jennifer Prokop 22:03 / #
One day it'll makes sense. We're foreshadowing a future joke about foreshadowing.
Sarah MacLean 22:08 / #
So Elizabeth Lowell does some really great foreshadowing work because he smells pregnancy in like four books before that book. And then she's looking at her, at her notes on him. And she's like, oh, he smells pregnancy. So bam. I know how this is gonna go.
Jennifer Prokop 22:23 / #
Here's the thing about this masquerade scene though. Like, I'm not really a person to pay attention to continuity things... but, before the masquerade, Ana is dressed in some very lovely lingerie. It is truly beautiful. In fact, it only... you know it also remind me of? Season One of Deadwood. Remember when Alma finally gets it on with the--what's his name?
Sarah MacLean 22:46 / #
Crazy eyes. Timothy Olyphant.
Jennifer Prokop 22:47 / #
Yes. She is also wearing some beautiful undergarments. I remember really being like, wow, that is lovely. Do you remember that?
Sarah MacLean 22:54 / #
I don't remember it. But I'm gonna...
Jennifer Prokop 22:56 / #
Find it and I'll like,
Sarah MacLean 22:57 / #
It's a really nice corset.
Jennifer Prokop 22:59 / #
Yes, but it's like kind of black lace and it's very sheer.
Sarah MacLean 23:03 / #
It's mourning undergarments.
Jennifer Prokop 23:05 / #
Sure, sure. Anyway, Ana is wearing this beautiful lingerie, and then she puts on a dress and I was like, wait, you just took all that stuff off!
Sarah MacLean 23:15 / #
A silk dress. I mean the argument--did she take it off?
Jennifer Prokop 23:20 / #
She couldn't have been... literally the straps would have shown.
Sarah MacLean 23:22 / #
Here's my thing about that lingerie. She's all very put together. But she's wearing her garter belts over her undies, which is, I mean, how it looks really perfect. But the reality is, is that if you wear your garter belts over your undies, anytime you have to pee, have sex or have ben wa balls inserted into you. This is important. This is a PSA you guys. You have to undress yourself! I mean, clearly the fantasy is held during the 50 Shades film.
Jennifer Prokop 23:58 / #
Sorry, my seventeen year old just appeared at a real awkward time, but he couldn't hear what you were talking about.
Sarah MacLean 24:04 / #
"Hi!". I'm really glad he couldn't hear what I was talking about. "Hi, Little Romance!"
Little Romance 24:07 / #
I don't know what's happening. So I'm gonna leave now.
Jennifer Prokop 24:09 / #
Okay, bye.
Sarah MacLean 24:09 / #
"Okay, bye". Look at you. He brought you breakfast.
Jennifer Prokop 24:15 / #
Yeah, Mr. ReadsRomance went to Dunkin donuts.
Sarah MacLean 24:18 / #
Oh, I love a Dunkin'.
Jennifer Prokop 24:20 / #
Me too. Can we talk about masquerades? The promise of the premise. That's what we're going to do right now.
Sarah MacLean 24:25 / #
All right. So the promise of the premise of the masquerade. One is, they don't know who the other is. So this is early days in the book, right? Like, if it's in the first couple of chapters, then it has to be sort of like a mystery of who this person is. Although, I mean, I don't know. I'm thinking. So, wait. Are we talking masquerades themselves or the mask itself? Because I think about that, um, delicious Elizabeth Hoyt book. Did you read all those Elizabeth Hoyt books? The Prince books?
Jennifer Prokop 24:59 / #
I think so.
Sarah MacLean 25:00 / #
Tiger Prince, Raven Prince, Serpent Prince. The Raven Prince is the one where he goes to the sex club. And she meets him there. He's going as like a client and she goes and is wearing a mask and she is the sex worker. And she's masked -- but that's another example of she thinks he doesn't know who she is -- And he of course knows right away. Of course. FYI guys we had no intention. We were just going to get it. We just decided we were going to freewheel today. So here we are.
Jennifer Prokop 25:42 / #
Well, we started off with my RBG Halloween costume and we're back to costume. So I feel like it's all a closed circut. Okay, here's my question about masquerades. Do you think this is a historical only trope?
Sarah MacLean 25:56 / #
Well, I mean, it's in 50 Shades, which arguably is...
Jennifer Prokop 25:59 / #
Yeah, but I was like, but other than 50 Shades.
Sarah MacLean 26:01 / #
100 million copies. Were we not clear enough.
Jennifer Prokop 26:05 / #
Right? But they go together.
Sarah MacLean 26:07 / #
Right, because Christian Grey is so an old fashioned, right? He's basically like... What's his name? Rochester. PS Christian Grey would absolutely keep his old wife in the attic.
Jennifer Prokop 26:20 / #
Um, hello? Yes.
Jennifer Prokop 26:23 / #
Like in the book the whole part with like Leila, or no, the movie.
Sarah MacLean 26:28 / #
Yeah, the second book is like some serious Jane Eyre fanfic.
Jennifer Prokop 26:32 / #
For sure.
Sarah MacLean 26:33 / #
It's, you know, a big problem. Adriana...
Jennifer Prokop 26:37 / #
She about had a heart attack. She was like, "Wait, what?" Go back and watch that flip again. Skip over this.
Sarah MacLean 26:45 / #
We should publish the chats. We could make a fortune. Okay, the contemporary masquerades. I mean, there have got to be--It's such a classic trope. Right? Right. This is why we don't usually like truly prepare, but we usually say, oh, we're gonna do an episode on masquerades and then we at least think about it. Yeah, they have to. Everybody at home is like screaming titles at us right now. You know that, right?
Jennifer Prokop 27:16 / #
I do. That's fine. I feel like in some ways, the Naima Simone blackout ones function similarly.
Sarah MacLean 27:26 / #
Like galas, like balls, right. Like, that sort of feel. I mean, I just wrote... the "Naughty Brits" anthology and its connected by a gala, which I think gives it a real romancey feel... that anthology. I mean, I love an anthology. We're going to take a little detour. But I love an anthology that links together. We've talked about this on the podcast, like, I much prefer an anthology where, you know, either some kind of trope, or there's a similar thing, or like all of them interconnect. "Naughty Brits", all of the all of the episodes, all of the stories interconnect at a gala at the British Museum, but it's not a mask.
Jennifer Prokop 28:09 / #
So in a masquerade, it's the whole like, we're strangers to each other, but of course, he recognizes her. But in a modern one. I feel like it's the gala. And it has like that pretty woman effect of the the glow up?
Sarah MacLean 28:27 / #
Yeah, it's like a Cinderella story. You mean? Yeah, I think that's probably reasonable.
Jennifer Prokop 28:36 / #
And not just for women. I think for men, too, right. Like, Oh, my God, look at you and your three piece suit.
Sarah MacLean 28:42 / #
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. You know, I can't think short of 50 Shades. I can't really think of like a, a masquerade, romance, a contemporary masquerade romance. And I think that that's, I think that's probably... Oh, you know, who does it? It's not a masquerade though. So in Nikki Sloane's sex club books, the heroines are always the the walkers are always masked. So there's like a sense of
Jennifer Prokop 29:21 / #
They're blindfolded.
Sarah MacLean 29:23 / #
Oh, their blindfolded. So it's not masks. That's a different thing. I mean, the whole series is called, "The Blindfold Club". So as it is, well, I wonder why. I mean, I guess is it because it's too much fantasy? Because historicals allow, like, here's the thing about historicals is a mask on unlocks the characters right? Like, so where in a historical you're always writing this really fine line between what is allowed, like what we'll get like ruination is always on the table in a historical, I mean, maybe not always, but like 90% of historicals. Ruination is one of the like, the fears, right? This idea because we've talked 1000 times about like patriarchy and what historicals are doing around patriarchy. And the truth is ruination is fucking nonsense is what it is, right? And like, it's about women and sexuality and perception and the way society tries to keep women from pleasure. And it's all those things. And so ruination as a threat is just like always a low level kind of bubbling threat. So masks give us an opportunity. I mean, how many times have I said, I love an identity. What I love about romance is identity, always. And so masks like, there's the one piece which is playing with identity. But there's also that second piece that frees women from the binds and constraints of propriety, because if she's wearing a mask, no one knows who she is. So if she's, like, slutty in the garden.
Jennifer Prokop 31:05 / #
It doesn't matter.
Sarah MacLean 31:06 / #
Yeah. So it's a shorthand for sexual freedom. But also, but without removing patriarchy, right. So because once the mask comes off, like everything goes to shit.
Jennifer Prokop 31:20 / #
So I wonder if that's why it doesn't need to function the same way in a contemporary.
Sarah MacLean 31:24 / #
Because if women just have sex, and it's fine, right? I mean, I was doing. Yeah, so maybe it just doesn't have purpose.
Jennifer Prokop 31:34 / #
I think it's different, right. So in like I said,
Sarah MacLean 31:36 / #
I do love that moment, where he's like, where everyone's like, "Who's that?" And he's "That's my goddess".
Jennifer Prokop 31:45 / #
Right? Well, cuz he's the only one who knows her. He's literally bringing into our world she's never seen before. Right? And I do think that that's how galas often function because we have so many billionaire/millionaire heroes or whatever, right? And so often the woman's appearance into this world... It's not really about patriarchy, as much as it is about class.
Sarah MacLean 32:09 / #
Yes. In contemporaries. Yeah. It's usually it's either it's fish out of water, it's an awareness of like, a whole world that we haven't, that she has not had access to until now.
Jennifer Prokop 32:23 / #
Well, and I think so I think also the payoff is really different and or he? Yeah, sure. I'm thinking okay, so you and I both love Charlotte Stein. Right. And one of my favorite Charlotte Stein's -- and I'm gonna have to look because of course, god knows what the hell are, you know, are titles -- So hold on, while I look at this title, there's one I love, one of my favorites. And like, I feel like no one ever talks about it. But it is like absolutely one of my favorites. And I don't remember the title hold on its "Run to You" is the name of the book. And it starts off with a woman who she her roommate, she figures out essentially is doing these, like assignation she calls them. So she shows up in this hotel room, she doesn't really know what's going to happen. And it turns out that it's like, kind of like, this man's gonna be there. Right. And at the end, though, she falls in love with him. His name's Yanos like, I don't scand, I don't remember where he from. And at the end, though, he takes her he like takes her to the spa, and she gets the full treatment and she wears this whole gown. And he takes her to this ball and she thinks he's trying to change her. And she actually like sort of, she can't deal with it. She's like, I wanted him to want me for me. I didn't want him to like, make me over. And I thought it was a really clever play on the glow up right like instead of the Pretty Woman moment being like, yes, look, you can fit in anywhere. Is her saying I actually just wanted to I wanted you to love me for me. I didn't want you to have to make me something I'm not in order to fit in with your world. Of course it was all a misunderstanding. It was fine, but
Jennifer Prokop 34:14 / #
I did really like so I do. I think the gala and the ball is just different in a, in a modern romance. I think it has different stakes.
Sarah MacLean 34:22 / #
I think also that I do think you're right that I think that it's it's often about money. I think about that scene. In the Sylvia Day series helped me Help me the "Crossfire".
Jennifer Prokop 34:37 / #
"Crossfire". I was like the to you series.
Sarah MacLean 34:39 / #
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So there's, there's that great scene, which is there's a scene in that series that's also at a gala or like a fundraiser, and they are sitting together and she is an and the dynamic is very much like he's a billionaire. She's not, She's like a young ingenue. And the they are having the moment at the table where there is a lot of like there's it's clear that like she is left out of the conversation or being manipulated in the conversation because she is not their kind, right? Like she's not their people. And it's a very class focused moment. And she uses her safe word at the table.
Jennifer Prokop 35:30 / #
Oh, wow, that's intense.
Sarah MacLean 35:31 / #
Have you read that book.
Jennifer Prokop 35:33 / #
I think I read the first one.
Sarah MacLean 35:34 / #
I don't know if it's the first one or the second one, somebody will tell us. But she's safe words him at the table during the conversation. And he instantly stops like, on a dime. And that and it's like, an incredible moment of like, power. And like this conversation around identity and power and, yeah, and how sex is more than just what happens between two people in private. Like, Yes, there is. It is a magnificent scene because of the way it balances power. And I think you're right, I think, you know, I think about um, you know, there are so in Lisa Kleypas in her contemporaries, and this is unsurprising, right? Like, Lisa is a historical Queen, right? Well, arguably the best of us in history. And so like when she right went, but when she came to her contemporaries, there were a lot of these like kind of Texan balls that happened, and like gave opportunities to have these conversations. What is interesting about this for me, though, is that it is so completely fantastical for most of us, like I always do every year, I make the same New Year's joke, right, which is I've been living in New York City for 20 years, and no one has ever invited me to a "When Harry Met Sally" style New Year's Eve party, like I have never been invited to have, you know, Eric run in the rain and say,
Movie Dialogue 37:12 / #
"I love that you get cold when it's 71 degrees. I love that it takes you an hour and a half to order a sandwich. I love that you get a little crinkle above your nose when you're looking at me like I'm nuts. I love that after I spend the day with you, I can still smell your perfume on my clothes. And I love that you are the last person I want to talk to before I go to sleep at night."
Sarah MacLean 37:32 / #
I think that fantasy of it's really old fashion, there's like a comfort to it. There is Yeah, because readers, we sort of know what happens at a ball. Like we know that ball is where like gentle courtship, there's something soft about it, even when it's not soft.
Jennifer Prokop 37:49 / #
Well, I also think it's really embedded in like the Cinderella trope, which is so I think it's like impossible to get away from and I think, you know, like going off to the ball and the fairy godmother and then you know, being recognized for who you are, even though no one else can see that. I mean, that's a really powerfully built into, like our society. But I mean, there are Cinderella stories from all over the world right there. This is a story that humanity loves, not just Americans. I think it's also a very visual trope. Yeah. And what I mean by that is, I don't know you guys look at the mirror every morning and I'm like, whatever. You know, like, I mean, same. Like the ugly duckling turning into a swan like that's, I love that. Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 38:46 / #
You know, have you read Theodora Taylor, we read her books.
Jennifer Prokop 38:51 / #
One but I it was a I don't remember though. It was there was not a ball.
Sarah MacLean 38:56 / #
So first of all, these were recommended to me by Kenya Gauri Bell, who is amazing, um, who is like the most wonderful person. Yeah, possibly in romance. She's just a delight. Um, so Kenya and I were in Alabama together immediately before COVID like we did an event in in Alabama, and I did an event with Naima Simone and Kenya was there and we all went out and hung out and talked about romance novels. As you know, you do when you hang out with me. Um, and she recommended this book called Holt, which is written by Theodora Taylor, who in it's like, the series title is like ruthless billionaires or something. And it begins with the heroine turning up at like a skyscraper for a party like very interestingly, like very Naima. Yeah, like this kind of there is this like big party that's happening and she has like, no money at all to her name, and she gets to this party. And it's like, you know, our writhing mass of like people partying. And there is one man who like is above it all, and it's happening at his home. But he's like, kind of bored by it. And I think that's a piece of it, too. Like, this idea that like,
Jennifer Prokop 40:27 / #
I love that. I love it when they're bored of it.
Sarah MacLean 40:29 / #
The hero can have anything in the world, like he can literally it's going back to that it's it harkens back to that Nicki Sloane book that I love so much, right? Where he's like, I'm literally in that book, above it all, looking down, and he can point to the person he wants and say that person, and there are all these remarkable people in the room. But he chooses you. And he chooses you. This is the value of the mask, right? Like he chooses you with, or without the mask. Um, because he can see he can see you he can see all sides of you. So like, it's, it's a really like, and it is like it's exactly what it sounds like. It's like super alpha guy, like, you know, if this is your kink, this book will really work for you. Um, so, you know, but I think about, Oh God, who's that other woman who I love Jean O'Reilly. Is that her name? Have you read Jane O'Reilly ever?
Jennifer Prokop 41:42 / #
It's not Jane O'Reilly. It's,
Sarah MacLean 41:44 / #
You're thinking of Kathleen O'Reilly.
Jennifer Prokop 41:46 / #
I'm thinking Kathleen O'Reilly okay.
Sarah MacLean 41:47 / #
No, I'm not talking about that. I like Kathleen O'Reilly too. And when we do our bartender episode, yes. Okay, as everyone knows that, that's what I'm looking for right now. Um, we will talk about Kathleen O'Reilly because I do love those New York City bartender episodes, but no, hang on. I'm gonna look. Jane O'Reilly. It's true. She's English. And she wrote a book called.
Jennifer Prokop 42:13 / #
Oh, I've read that.
Sarah MacLean 42:15 / #
Yeah, it's not I mean, I recommend I don't think I've ever recommended on the podcast. This actually just became like, just a big, let's just talk about books. We like, fine episode, whatever, who cares?
Jennifer Prokop 42:25 / #
Um, this podcast is free. Everybody so.
Sarah MacLean 42:31 / #
Sorry. Um, so she wrote a book called The pressure plates principle, which is a novella. And it's like, part of again, like part of a series of novellas. But this is a similar thing where the heroine, Oh, God, I love it insecure and insecure about sex heroin, like, the heroin has some some bad I know, I understand that some of my things are deeply problematic, but like, I don't know, it's 2020 leave me alone. So but I love it when like so she said the heroine is coming off like this very bad relationship, where when she broke up with this guy who was terrible to her, he was basically like, you are terrible in bed. Like you suck at sex. And so she's like super insecure about sex. She's in like PR works for some PR company in England is set in England. It's contemporary. I think Jane O'Reilly is English. And the her like, outrageously sexy boss. Hosts these like bacchanals.
Jennifer Prokop 43:35 / #
Great. Great.
Sarah MacLean 43:40 / #
So she turns up at one of them and here we are bored hero. Tired of supermodels.
Jennifer Prokop 43:51 / #
I cannot get enough of that bullshit. I really cannot. It's a great.
Sarah MacLean 43:55 / #
And he's and she asks him for sex lessons. Like she's basically like, I'm bad at sex. And he's like, I feel confident that that is not the case. Never and then he's like, but yes, I will give you sex lessons. So it's like educational kissing, which is another trope we love and should do an episode about but like, again, like this sort of bored. I don't know. Why are we doing this today? I don't know. Why isn't this it's
Jennifer Prokop 44:22 / #
Where we are. Sarah, where we are.
Sarah MacLean 44:25 / #
You know why? Because I'm an insecure heroine right now. I'm like, I don't know. I want a bored. I want a bored person to just be like,
Jennifer Prokop 44:34 / #
Fix this. Like, yeah
Sarah MacLean 44:35 / #
I will teach you about sex. And also I see you and it's all gonna be okay.
Jennifer Prokop 44:41 / #
So, you know, this is a perfect opportunity to mention our favorite Derek Craven, who does not recognize Sarah when she comes to the masquerade.
Sarah MacLean 44:49 / #
No, dummy
Jennifer Prokop 44:52 / #
His factotum does danger you dummy. You know why? Cuz They think we just want the world to be different right now. I think it's perfect. I'm always looking for a way to make the metaphor work everybody sorry,
Sarah MacLean 45:06 / #
Shout out to every person who is selling witch romance is right now. Because there are which romance is like every two days. So for those of you who are not in publishing, there's this email list that you can get on you have to pay for it, but, and I, and it's called publishers lunch, and you get a email every day about the deals like the new publishing deals that are coming out. And for the last like, three months, it's just been like, witch series, after witch series, after witch series in romance and like, I am here for it. Oh, like, in a huge way, because I just feel like I don't, I don't want real life like I don't. I want to read historicals. I want to read paranormals. I want to read things where like, power. I want to read about power. Yes. I want to read about power, but I want to read about power.
Music Lyric 45:55 / #
I can break you will, I can make you kneel. I can force you to crawl and to lick my heels. Cause the power is mine. Power is mine.
Sarah MacLean 46:03 / #
Like where like men has to be like, broken down. Yeah. And I want that, because I want power redistribution in the world.
Jennifer Prokop 46:16 / #
Yeah, me too.
Sarah MacLean 46:19 / #
You know, RBG has that famous quote about like, people always ask her like, when will When will the supreme she be happy with the the way the Supreme Court is broken up? And she says when you're alive? Because there have been nine men on the court for so long. And nobody's ever questioned that. And it just feels like, that's how it should be.
Jennifer Prokop 46:40 / #
Maybe it's naviete, maybe it's just like the access we have to the world. But I've never thought the world was fair. But the way in which is so blatantly unfair now. Right. And the that feels, aggressive.
Sarah MacLean 47:00 / #
The other book I was thinking about this morning, and, you know, was night and Nalini Singh's "Slave to Sensation", which we've never talked about, because we spent so much time in the first season talking about paranormals that I write, like, we write, just have sort of, we've never talked at length about other paranormals. And we should, you know, probably rectify that this season. But like, the premise of slave to sensation, the heroine has emotions, right? And like, the universe that Nalini has created in that, in that book, is a universe where emotions are, are devalued. Like they like it's a weakness, um, which, I mean, it's like, it just feels like, that's real patriarchy. Right? And, yeah, but the hero actually, like, feeds on them, like he can. He gets sustenance from emotions. And so she's, you know, there, she's in hiding. And there's this real sense of, like, power just being so codified in that relationship, and how, how emotion how, like, emotions in women, and like, things that are considered to be softer and weaker, are actually incredible power. And I feel like that's where we are, you know, it's like that. It's that Rebecca Tracer books, you know, like, "Good and Mad", "Good and Mad". And, Mona Eltahaway's "The Seven Necessary Sins of Women and Girls", and it just feels like, anger is all we have now. Yeah. And I, I mean, I think they're, weirdly, we just talked about a bunch of romance novels that are not about women's anger, like they are about, you know, I don't know, sex deals and masquerades. But, but also, I think, like, maybe maybe they aren't, are about about maybe that's part of it, too, like that mask as like, we're all wearing masks all the time. And maybe it's time for us all to take them off and like show the world that we're furious.
Jennifer Prokop 49:09 / #
Like my fury, in my mid 40s is not as threatening, you know, I'm a white lady like, right? Like, I mean, I'm a school teacher. I mean, I just feel like the whole thing too, about like, who gets to be mad. Right, and how that madness is how your anger is perceived as threatening or not. I mean, it's also Rosh Hashanah. So Happy New Year to all of our listeners. And my friend Julie mentioned that she went to services last night, like on zoom or whatever, and that her Rabbi said, "despair is not a strategy". And I was like, that's really good for me to remember. Because it's like people, like people have fought to make the world better for a really long time.
Sarah MacLean 50:01 / #
Yep. So what do we do, Jen? What is a strategy? Call your senators? Yes. Even if you live in blue states, Jen and I live in blue states, I have two blue senators, they have both said like, but I mean, my senators are in line, but like, call your senators make sure they know that you are expecting them to fight with every fiber of their being, even if even though it feels like that is, I mean, we are despairing. If you live in a swing state in a place that has either one blue and one red senator or in a state where your senator, your red senator is up for reelection? Mm hmm. Call your senators. Um, you know, I think this is especially true in places like Maine, where like Susan Collins might win her seat back if she steps up here. So call your senators.
Jennifer Prokop 50:57 / #
If I think act blue reported last night that it was making money hand over fist for swing states and for campaigns, I think Arizona is going to be really important because the reelection there because essentially that Senator, whoever wins is going to get seated faster because of the way like that election is working. I can't remember the details like whatever.
Sarah MacLean 51:26 / #
Jon Favreau, who used worked for Barack Obama, a speechwriter runs on a PAC. I mean, I don't know if we call it a PAC. But it's a it's a fund. And it's called "Get Mitch or Die Trying". And we will put links to it in show notes. That is the pack that raised something like $10 million in three hours last night, because democrats are mad, people are fired up. So call your senators, also do what you can if you don't have money, because a lot of us don't, because it's real hard out here. And we are like, there's also a pandemic on and we understand the burden that that has caused on a lot of families. You can text bank, you can phone bank. Last night, I tried to get addresses from postcards to voters, and there was only one campaign that had addresses still. So I think a lot of people are doing now. So sign up, sign up, sign up for all that stuff. I actually have a text bank training this afternoon at two o'clock for Wisconsin. But you can sign up in individual states if you want to. If you are planning to vote by mail, vote early so that your vote is already counted. By the time the election comes.
Jennifer Prokop 52:42 / #
Well, Virginia had early voting start to speak and they've never seen lines like that. So I have to assume that voters are really motivated and we just need to stay that way like now is, now is the time right if you've been like saving your energy for the final stretch like it's the sprint now it's not a marathon any more.
Sarah MacLean 53:03 / #
Well, here Look, this is the possible gold, gold's lining silver line gold at what, what color is silver lining?
Jennifer Prokop 53:10 / #
So like Anna's dress up at the ball.
Sarah MacLean 53:14 / #
The lining is silver. But the silver, the possible silver lining here is look, we all know that Joe Biden is like, not the most exciting like a lot of us were hoping for someone else. But here we are. And Ginsburg, we have to like honor her legacy here. And like get fired up for the court, get fired up for the Senate, get fired up for the future. We are really, in get fired up for the those families on the border, and for black families across America and for women across America and Trans people across America. And stay try and do what you can to stay fired up for the next 40 whatever days. We are going to be here with you every step of the way. We are going to try and stay fired up we are going to try and keep let's try and keep each other fired up. Take care of yourselves and remember self care but you know also we got to push through.
Jennifer Prokop 54:20 / #
Yeah, the thing it was really funny and people the things that you find solace in besides reading romance like, Eric last night was like there's more of us than there are of them. That's why they need to cheat.
Sarah MacLean 54:32 / #
By the millions there are really literal millions more of us than there are of them.
Jennifer Prokop 54:36 / #
Yeah. And that is really important for me to remember I feel like one of the down, I mean social media is like so amazing my life in a lot of ways. I found all of you through social media but
Sarah MacLean 54:47 / #
I mean Tom Hardy as Sarah MacLean covers.
Jennifer Prokop 54:50 / #
Right it's really hard sometimes to not focus on the all the like those bad stories that bubble up but you know, most of us are out here like trying to do the right thing wearing our masks, we want to vote, we want to help the election. We want to like restore, we can have democracy, we want people to have their civil rights. And I just feel like that helps me. It helps me to remember that.
Sarah MacLean 55:13 / #
It's hard out here. But it is it is easier for us than it has been in the past for a lot of people. You know, I hold tight, I hold tight to President Obama saying like, it is better now than it was, like it is always better. And you know, watching the DNC it's clear, the President Obama is real mad. Yeah. And I'm glad for it. It's right. Um, but there is, but that's where we are.
Jennifer Prokop 55:44 / #
Yeah, I think one last thing I guess I want to say is like, cling to your personal happiness, wherever you find that. One thing that we say all the time in romance is that like, the past didn't need to be perfect that people found personal happiness, even in times of great struggle. That's like the cornerstone of the whole thing. But I feel like one of the things that we see all the time, right is when you know, people, you know, some of our fellow white ladies will say things like, well, how could so and so be happy back then. And I just feel like this is why you have to cling to your personal happiness now, right? Whatever it is in this world right now that is bringing you joy. That is a positive net effect good thing, and none of us should feel bad about those things, whatever they are, right. Like my friend, Ernie and his husband have their new baby this week. And he had a baby and the baby next were remote controlled for like scale. And I was like the baby so tiny. Joy, it's joy to joy.
Sarah MacLean 56:50 / #
Yeah, it is joy. And also you guys like, don't let Twitter get you down. If like, if you're happy about the James Bond casting, or the Juergen Klopp thread, or the video that Rex Chapman is that his name Rex Chapman, it posted today of like, whatever adorable animal thing. Like, you're allowed. You're allowed. We have to suck the joy out of out of everything. Right? To be able to power to keep going the fight. And it's, you know, I feel like there's that. Did you ever watch the Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt that show?
Jennifer Prokop 57:34 / #
I'm a bad watcher Sarah?
Sarah MacLean 57:35 / #
I know you don't watch TV. Um, but anyway, so there's there is this comedy that was on for a little while. And it was, you know, kind of adorable. And she had this thing where she was like, you can do anything for 10 seconds, right? Like, I feel like we can do anything for 45 days. Yeah. And we'll tackle it on November 4.
Jennifer Prokop 57:56 / #
Yep. We will.
Sarah MacLean 57:58 / #
We'll have an episode on November 4. We will. That's what we can promise you. It will be here November 4. Yep. After that. Who knows? Cuz, Jen, Jen exhausts me. Um, all right. We love you guys.
Jennifer Prokop 58:16 / #
Be strong.
Sarah MacLean 58:17 / #
And yeah, we're here where we're thinking of you. We're really grateful for you. How about that? We you are keeping, you are keeping us going?
Jennifer Prokop 58:26 / #
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's the thing. Again, I say it a lot like romance was such a solitary thing I loved and now it doesn't have to be and it is really amazing that that's how my world is now.
Sarah MacLean 58:43 / #
Yep. All right. This is Fated Mates. And what else you can find us at Fatedmates.net. There you can find all sorts of information about merch and transcripts and a link to the Spotify playlist of all the music that gets played during these episodes. We are produced by Eric Mortensen. Next week, we are reading Alicia Ries "Serving Pleaure", which is a book that gives both of us a whole lot of joy. Yes. And we hope it will give you a lot of joy to it is real sexy, and a great fun read for this week. So get on that.
Jennifer Prokop 59:30 / #
And we were all over the place. So tell us where you are. That's all.
Sarah MacLean 59:37 / #
I mean, this is the second week in a row we were all over the place. You understand that? Yeah. Adriana on Twitter, but Adriana texted us a GIF of the way she imagined our brains working during the "Heart of Blood and Ashes", episode. And it was not wrong. And we're kind of sorry.
Jennifer Prokop 59:58 / #
I'm not sorry about any of it.
Sarah MacLean 1:00:01 / #
You know, feels like in season three, we should be better at this.
Jennifer Prokop 1:00:05 / #
Times are rough though, Sarah, I feel like you know, I? Well, one of the things I say at school a lot, is I'm always asking this question, right, which is like, what is really, I'm an English teacher right? So, it's like what is the most important thing right now is like how do I get kids engaging and reading and writing? Like everything else falls away? Like what is the core of your discipline? And I feel like, you know, the core of our discipline in this podcast is that we just fucking love these books so goddamn much that our brains are like, just neurons firing all the time.
Sarah MacLean 1:00:39 / #
I mean, to be honest, I think that you all kind of love these books, too. So yeah, I mean, they wouldn't still listen, we know they're listening. I can see the data.
Jennifer Prokop 1:00:48 / #
I know you do love data. You do love data.
Sarah MacLean 1:00:50 / #
I must suck.
Jennifer Prokop 1:00:51 / #
Eric. Eric sends us the data every week. And I just say things like, wow.
Sarah MacLean 1:00:59 / #
And I'm like, can you explain this curve? Yeah. So anyway, you guys we love you. Stay strong, as Elizabeth Warren would say "Fight Only Righteous Fights".
S03.05: A Heart of Blood and Ashes by Milla Vane: Because Moon Reasons
This week, we begin the Season 3 read alongs, and we announce the first wave of work of romance we want to honor -- joy. Romance is supposed to be fun, and sometimes, especially now, as 2020 rages around us, it can be difficult to remember that.
So, we begin talking about joy this week with a book that gave us both immense joy, Milla Vane's A Heart of Blood and Ashes. This one is a long one, y'all, so get ready. We're all over the place because we loved it so much, and it's a ride. Eric wants us to tell you that this is going to feel like an old-school IAD episode, so if you haven't read the book, good luck! We love you!
Next week, we’ve got an interstitial for you! And the week after, we’re deep diving on Alisha Rai’s Serving Pleasure, which is a fantastic erotic romance. Find it at Amazon, B&N, Kobo, Apple Books or Bookshop.org.
Also -- Sarah has a contemporary novella out September 15th! Preorder the Naughty Brits anthology, wherever you get your ebooks: Amazon, Nook, Kobo, Apple, or in print at bookshop.org.
Show Notes
Please listen and suscribe to the Black Romance Podcast, a fascinating oral history of Black romance authors. For more recent interviews with authors, check out The Wicked Wallflowers podcast. There are so many amazing romance podcasts for every type of listener.
After her death, readers shared their memories of their first Johanna Lindsey novels using the hashtag #MyFirstJohanna.
Alisha Rai, we demand to know the name of your hairdresser.
California and the entire West Coast and experiencing the worst fire season in 100 years. Climate Change is real.
Sarah asked for maps, and Jen said "reading strategies are for everyone" because they are! While we're at it, making mental movies, models, and visual images of what you read is one of the best reading strategies out there and if you have little kids, teach them to do this and it will help them be better readers their entire life.
This amazing thread by Alexandra Erin is about how sometimes genre is determined by plot and sometimes it's determined by setting.
The audiobook for A Heart of Blood and Ashes is great, but Jen really recommends you slow it down to .9 if you want it at "regular" speaking speed.
Ilona Andrews writes amazing books, and Jen wants you to read the Hidden Legacy series. IN FACT, NEVADA AND ROGAN DO KISS in the first book, but they don't do the business until the second.
If you missed our bodily autonomy episode, we were real mad about ridiculous anti-abortion laws and we talked about how romance taught us about birth control and our bodies.
Some interesting thoughts about poison, and the myth of the woman as poisoner and who is likely to use it. This is realted to the idea that manipulation (or as Maddek might call it, "sly tongue") is often used by the powerless as a way of getting around patriarchal power structures that silence them.
"She rescues him right back" is, of course, a reference to Pretty Woman.
Up next, Serving Pleasure by Alisha Rai.
Buy Fated Mates swag by clicking on the Merch link at the top of this page.
Did someone say map?
Did someone say map?
Lost Limb Count (SO MANY SPOILERS!)
For those listeners who missed Season One of Fated Mates, Kresley Cole really enjoyed removing limbs from her characters (They mostly regenerated). She liked it so much, that we tracked the lost limbs from the books in what is now an epic lost limb counter.
Also, if you missed Season One, it's our pure joy in your earholes. We recommend it.
Legs & Feet
Years earlier, Yvenne attempted to escape with her mother. In retaliation, her father and brother shatter her knee. It never heals properly and she will never run again.
At the end, Yvenne is trapped in her tower, and from that window she shoots her father Zhalen right through his knee and calf with her arrow, shattering his knee as hers had been.
Arms, Hands, and Fingers
Immediately before the book begins, Yvenne used a bow and arrow to kill her brother Lazen. To punish her, her father cut off the first and second fingers of her right hand so she can never draw a bow again.
Head, Face, and Eyes
Yvenne throws a dagger at her brother Bazir’s eye. Although her aim is perfect, the handle hits him in the eye rather than the blade. Later that night, Bazir and his men attack, and Maddek rips out Bazir’s tongue, stabs and kills Bazir with his own poisoned sword.
Torso
When Zhalen realized that Yvenne sent a message to Maddek’s parents, he whipped her back and left numerous scars.
When Maddek kidnaps her from the wedding caravan, Yvenne stabs her brother Cezan in the back with her dagger.
When Zhalen’s men come for her and kill Banek, she rips the arrows from the fallen bodies around her in order to shoot back at her father’s men.
Total Body Destruction
After Yvenne’s brother Aezil poisons Maddek, he is too weak to wield a weapon. He crawls to the edge of the cliff, drops his sword into the drepa (an evil bird dinosaur kind of thing) nest which causes them to attack and kill Aezil while Maddek and his wolf play dead.
Zhalen tricks Yvenne into drinking three doses of half-moon milk. She was not sure she was pregnant, so it forced her to have a heavy period or perhaps an abortion. She is overcome with grief.
After Yvenne shatters Zhalen’s kneecap with her arrow, Maddek rips out his tongue, shreds his cock and balls with his silver claws, and then tears out his heart. He then uses Zhalen’s own axe to cut off his head, which he then presents to Yvenne as a sign of his love and devotion.
S03.04: Friends to Lovers with Tracey Livesay: Handstand, Hammock, and Horse
Two years in the making, we’re finally talking to one of our very favorites, Tracey Livesay, about friends-to-lovers romances! Ironically, for a group of people who say they don’t love friends-to-lovers, we sure had a lot of books to recommend! We’ll also peel back the curtain on Tracey’s feelings about Jamie Dornan, talk about the strangest places romance couples have sex, and get to the bottom of why this trope works so well when it works.
Sarah wrote a contemporary novella during a pandemic, and it's coming out September 15th! Preorder the Naughty Brits (an anthology with Sophie Jordan, Sierra Simone, Louisa Edwards and Tessa Gratton), wherever you get your ebooks: Amazon, Nook, Kobo, Apple or Google, or in print at bookshop.org.
Next week, we’re deep diving on Milla Vane’s A Heart of Blood and Ashes, which is a long fantasy romance. If you are a reader who needs content warnings, you might want to check out reviews on Goodreads.
Find it at Amazon, B&N, Kobo, Apple Books or Bookshop.org.
Thank you, as always, for listening — we hope you’re having a great (and safe!) summer! While we’re apart, if you are up for leaving a rating or review for the podcast on your podcasting app, we would be very grateful!
Show Notes
Linda is keeping a calendar of romance events. You should subscribe.
The Fifty Shades movies aren’t well reviewed, but really who cares. We definitely recommend the unrated version if you have the money (editorial note: would we say "recommend?"). Some interesting facts about the movies, including the director change from Sam Taylor-Johnson to James Foley. The soundtracks for the movies are terrific, especially two Beyonce songs: the remix of Crazy in Love and the song Haunted. May all of your contract negotiations look like this. Tracey said “we see more of Jamie” in the next two movies, so maybe she didn’t know about his modeling career. All further 50 Shades questions should be directed to Nisha Sharma.
Unrequited love is way more stressful than friends to lovers.
In Like Lovers Do, Ben's ex-girlfriend is racist to Nic in a way that Ben doesn't quite understand, including a reference to Courvoisier, which Ben thinks is referring to an SNL skit.
Unsurprisingly, we adore Like Lovers Do, but we're not sure we can give it a better review than this one by LaQuette, who really hits the nail on the head with the promise of this particular premise (aka, hammock sex friends-to-lovers).
Martha’s Vineyard is for fancy people.
A New York Times article about Interracial romance in media in 2020.
Are bachelor auctions even a thing?
Bruno Kirby and Carrie Fisher are amazing in all ways in When Harry Met Sally, and the "pesto is the quiche of the 80s" scene gets quoted more than anyone in Sarah's house would like.
Up next: A Heart of Blood and Ashes by Milla Vane.
S03.03: Fifty Shades of Grey by EL James: Romance Has Gotten Hotter And I Think I Like It
If we’re going to talk about the last 10 years of romance — what we’d call modern romance — it’s basically impossible to do that out in the world without someone who doesn’t know much about the genre asking about EL James’s Fifty Shades of Grey. This week, Fated Mates is talking about Fifty Shades. Or, rather, we’re talking about what we're really talking about when we talk about Fifty Shades of Grey.
At no point in this discussion do we talk about tampons. You’re welcome.
Next week, we’ve got an interstitial for you! And the week after, we’re deep diving on Milla Vane’s A Heart of Blood and Ashes, which is a long fantasy romance. If you are a reader who needs content warnings, you might want to check out reviews on Goodreads.
Find it at Amazon, B&N, Kobo, Apple Books or Bookshop.org.
Show Notes
There are honestly so many articles about Fifty Shades that Jen couldn't possibly even link to them. But the one about the increase in ER visits, necktie sales up 23%, and Jen wrote about the history of romance between Fabio and Fifty Shades.
Drunk Austen went through a rather spectacular break-up last week; we promise never to do this and swear we are full legal partners in our current venture.
Fanfiction brought Christina Lauren, Tara Sue Me, Sally Thorne and so many others to us. And lots of great BDSM was written after Fifty Shades by too many authors to count, but many think of The Original Sinners series by Tiffany Reisz as being truly excellent.
There's a reason why women hate dealing with car salesmen and mechanics. Jen wants you to know that if you're in Chicago and looking for a mechanic, the guys at Ashland Tire and Auto will never treat you like that.
Perhaps you're interested in whether or not Fifty Shades of Grey was copyright infringement?
The 2010 He-cession vs the 2020 she-cession.
Sarah reviewed Grey for the Washington Post, and just a few weeks ago, Midnight Sun (Twilight from Edward's Point of View was released.
Ope. We forgot to talk about Thomas Hardy, so just read this article from The Guardian instead.
Mrs. Robinson refers to a character in the 1967 film The Graduate.
Flat Stanley is a character in a children's book, but here we are talking about the theory that readers insert themselves into a book and become the main character. Many people believed that teenage girls reading Twilight imaged themselves as Bella, for example, but that's deeply rooted in misogny. In Dangerous Men and Adventurous Women, Laura Kinsale suggested that women reading romance imagine themselves as the hero rather than the heroine.
Fifty Shades of Grey sold a lot of fucking copies. A lot. A lot!
Lori Perkins was the editor of Fifty Writers on Fifty Shades of Grey. You can also check out Hard Core Romance: Fifty Shades of Grey, Bestsellers, and Society by Eva Illouz.
Jen refers to Christian as the Marlboro Man, a symbol of a kind of gruff, male, American renegade loner.
Where does Kink come from? And what Fifty Shades gets right and wrong about kink and BDSM.
S03.02: Summer Reads: The "Sarah Was Right" Edition
We’ve been gone for many weeks, as you know, and during that time we read a whole lot of books. In this, our first interstitial of Season Three, we’ll talk about some of those books…and also Jen will spend some really important time confirming that Sarah is, in fact, right. About everything. That’s canon now.
Next week, we’ll read Fifty Shades of Grey. We'll talk fan fiction, Christian Grey, 1st person POV, billionaires, the early 2010s, why the book mobilized so many readers, why it made so many others angry, and what we talk about when we talk about Fifty Shades of Grey. It’s Season Three. We’re back on our bullsh*t. Find Fifty Shades of Grey at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo, or at your local indie.
Show Notes
Cats like boxes! Dogs like to chew things! Speaking of Rube Goldberg machines, if you're ever in Chicago, you should really see the one at the Museum of Science and Industry.
Who is the CJ Craig of "Bless her cotton socks" fame, you ask?
Speaking of Vivian Stephens...We mentioned our episode with Steve Ammidown on the books she aquired was one of our favorite episodes, but you should really read this terrific interview with her that was published in the September 2020 issue of Texas Monthly magazine.
The iHeartRadio podcast awards are a thing, and Jen just wants to be recognized.
Milla Vane also writes as Meljean Brook, check out The Iron Duke if you like steampunk. But all of us recommend against using blood as lube.
John Cusack's starring role as a hit man was in the 1997 movie Grosse Point Blank.
LaQuette left a perfect review on Goodreads of Like Lovers Do in case you need more convincing.
Did we mention there are Fated Mates t-shirts now? Check out the shop at JenReadsRomance for Kelly's romancelandia buttons, stickers, and cards, and her Resistance Buttons shop for Biden Harris 2020 buttons.
Next week, Fifty Shades of Grey. Our next read along book is going to be A Heart of Blood and Ashes. That's the way we want it.
Oh, and this hadn't been announced when we recorded, but Sarah wrote a contemporary novella during a pandemic, and it's coming out September 15th! Preorder Naughty Brits (an anthology with Sophie Jordan, Sierra Simone, Louisa Edwards and Tessa Gratton), wherever you get your ebooks: Amazon, Nook, Kobo, Apple or Google.
S03.01: Season Three: Back on our Bullsh*t
SEASON THREE!
It’s here, we’re back, and we’re back on our bullsh*t because it’s 2020 and it’s all we have, honestly.
Season One gave us a full lAD deep dive (if you’ve never read Kresley Cole’s Immortals After Dark, pandemic anxiety is a really good reason to start), and Season Two gave us The Books That Blooded Us -- the books that made us the romance readers we are.
Season Three will pick up where Season Two left off. This season, we'll tackle 15 (or so) books that did heavy lifting for the genre and for readers. Some of the books are transformative, some are juggernauts, and some are just truly excellent romance that shows how vast and magnificent the romance pool can get. All of them will show just how the genre works, and how it’s always changing the game.
We’ve also got some great interstitials planned, including some fabulous, brilliant guests on deck…and when Munro is released, we’ll (obviously) be here for you!
So...where do we begin? We begin in two weeks with a text that no one can deny transformed romance and the way the world looked at it: Fifty Shades of Grey. We'll talk fan fiction, Christian Grey, 1st person POV, billionaires, the early 2010s, why the book mobilized so many readers, why it made so many others angry, and the work it did to set the genre spinning in multiple directions over the last decade.
Get reading, y'all, we've got a lot to say. You can find Fifty Shades of Grey at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo, or at your local indie.
Note: We are focusing on the first book in the trilogy, not the whole trilogy, though we will likely discuss the entire thing.
You have two weeks to read, but in the meantime, sit back, relax, and let us give you a preview of what's to come! Don't forget to like and subscribe in your favorite podcasting platform!
Show Notes
Did you notice our new intro music?
All about carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, and nitrous oxide.
In case you want to hear more about blood blow jobs (A Hunger Like No Other, Lothaire, and Sweet Ruin) and blood handjobs (A Heart of Blood and Ashes).
Here are some things you can do if you want to save American democracy: make sure you're registered to vote (and keep checking), fill out the census, if you can sign up to be a poll-worker, text bank, phone bank, write postcards to voters, subscribe to the My Civic Workout newsletter, join a local Indivisible Group.
If you're not following Celeste Pewter on twitter, you should. Here's her thread on what you can do to help save the Post Office.
Shop your local indie bookstore! They need your support.
Jen and Sarah met for the first time at the Printer's Row Lit Fest in Chicago. Catch up with season one-- a read along of Kresley Cole's Immortals After Dark series, and season two--the Books that Blooded Us.
We love the Gaslighter album, the song Wet Ass Pussy, and Kamala Harris. All joking aside, there's nothing wrong with a wet ass pussy, and you can read The Vagina Bible to learn more about it.
The Potentials were the pool of available women who might be tapped as Slayer.
Jen's reading Jack Reacher books with her friend Ernie. Name is destiny.
Katee Robert's taboo series is giving readers exactly what they want.
Up next: Fifty Shades of Grey.
S02.45: Vivian Stephens' Acquisitions with librarian Steve Ammidown
It felt fitting that our final episode of Season 2—during which we celebrated so many of the vintage romances that blooded us—would be with someone we could fully geek out with! We are thrilled to have Steve Ammidown, romance nerd and archivist at the Browne Popular Culture Library at Bowling Green State University, with us today to talk about Vivian Stephens and early category romances. To prepare, all three of us read some of the earliest American category romances, and wow were they a ride! We’re talking women who work, marriage in romance, older heroines, the impact of Vietnam on 1980s romances, and more. Strap in!
We’re on hiatus for the next three weeks, but you’ll hear some great alternative content on Wednesdays — including crossover episodes and interviews we’ve done in other places. Thank you, as always, for listening — we hope you’re having a great (and safe!) summer. While we’re apart, if you are up for leaving a rating or review for the podcast on your podcasting app, we would be very grateful!
Oh, and did you know Sarah has a new book out? Daring & the Duke is officially here! Get it at Amazon, Kobo, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Books-a-Million or from your local indie, or order it signed from the wonderful independent bookstore, Savoy Bookshop in RI, where she is through the end of July!
Show Notes
Welcome Steve Ammidown, the Manuscripts & Outreach Archivist at the Browne Popular Culture Library at the Bowling Green State University in Bowling Green, Ohio.
Vivian Stephens was one of the original founders of RWA and one of the most important editors in romance. At the Browne Pop Culture library, there is a special Vivian Stephens collection. Vivian was instrumental in bringing category romance to America and created the Candlelight Ecstacy Romance line, which put sex on page in a new way. She also created the Harlequin American line.
Vivian recruited a series of authors who changed the face of romance: Jayne Castle/Jayne Ann Krenz, Sandra Brown, and later Beverly Jenkins. Here is an early interview with Vivian about her work and the world of romance.
At the last RITAs ceremony--in the future, it will be the Vivians!-- there was a great video of romance firsts. You should watch it.
Dangerous Men and Adventurous Women was a 90s era collection of romance essays by romance writers to combat a lot of not great academic research on romance.
The late 70s and early 80s were a tumultuous time in American history: the return of Vietnam soldiers, a finacial crisis, and a huge divorce boom.
The mall bookstores, B. Dalton and Waldenbooks, were alive and well in the 80s. The buyers at these bookstores, including Sue Grimshaw, were powerful gatekeepers who had a great amount of power over the romance genre.
Kathryn Falk and Romantic Times and Flavia Kngightsbridge was a famous RT columnist, and at RT conventions there was something called the Mr. Romance Competition, and everyone who has ever seen it is like...whoa.
Marisa de Zavala, whose real name is Celina Mullan, also wrote as Ana Lisa de Leon and Rachel Scott. See more about Marisa on this great thread about her from Alexis Daria!
Entwined Destinies was one of the first category romances with Black characters by a Black author, Elsie Washington writing as Rosalind Welles. Although it's very difficult to find a copy of Entwined Destinies, but BGSU has a great photograph of Vivian and Elsie together.
S02.44: Freewheeling with Kennedy Ryan
We’re so excited to have Kennedy Ryan with us this week — someone who was blooded not once, but twice by old school historicals! Listen to us talk powerful heroines, her brilliant Queen Move, how so much romance is political and why those old romances are still worth reading — problematic and all.
Summer is here, and next week is the final episode of Season Two, with a few others to come while we take a few weeks off. To read romance novels. Obviously. Season Three begins in August!
While we’re apart, if you are up for leaving a rating or review for the podcast on your podcasting app, we would be very grateful!
Oh, and did you know Sarah had a book out last week? Daring & the Duke is officially here! Get it at Amazon, Kobo, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Books-a-Million or from your local indie, or order it signed from the wonderful independent bookstore, Savoy Bookshop in RI, where she is for the. month of July!
Show Notes
Welcome Kennedy Ryan! You know what they say about pastors' kids. Just kidding, she was a late bloomer.
Teacher Jen would like a moment to talk about vocabulary acquisition: Parents can help kids learn new words by modeling, but reading is really the X factor. You can take this vocabulary test to see the rough size of your own vocabulary, but this information about how kids acquire new words is actually pretty simple: read lots of fiction when you're young.
Believe it or not, there was never a Carole Mortimer book titled Frustration. But perhaps you might be interested in her other single word titles: Untamed, Gypsy (yikes!), or Witchchild.
Prince had lots of protégées, including Vanity (Rick James's ex-girlfiend! thank you for that info Cheris Hodges!), Sheena Easton, and so many others. Speaking of Sheena Easton, Prince wrote the lyrics for Sugar Walls and it is pretty dirty. Ava DuVernay was slated to direct a documentary on Prince for Netflix, but stepped down over "creative differences." And if you can ever travel again, Jen highly recommends going on the tour of Paisley Park.
Jen mentioned that Iris Johansen, Fayrene Preston, and Kay Hooper wrote several series about a family called the Delaneys, and Kay Hooper tells the story of how it happened on her website. PS. the original covers for The Delaneys: The Untamed Years are amazing. And in case you're looking for a house to buy, maybe Iris Johansen's place might be to your liking?
Going back to the archives, Candace Proctor (who also writes as C.S. Harris) and Penelope Williamson are sisters?
So, in romances, being a wet nurse is just a plot device. But the history of wet nurses is, to no one's surprise, rather grim. Sunset Embrace is the Sandra Brown book with the wet nurse. In Vanessa Riley's newest-- A Duke, The Lady, and a Baby -- the heroine has to sneak in to feed her own son and manages to get herself hired as his wet nurse. In Romeo and Juliet the nurse said that Juliet was "The prettiest babe that e’er I nursed." In a pinch, Enfamil is the way to go.
Mary Queen of Scots didn't come to a good end. So maybe just read Shadowheart?
Meagan McKinney defrauded the government during Katrina and landed in jail, which is why we are never going to read one of her books for Fated Mates.
TRANSCRIPT
Sarah MacLean 0:00 / #
Well, we're almost done with the season but we have saved the best for last Jen.
Jennifer Prokop 0:06 / #
If I could break out into song right now and not scare people away. Maybe I would
Kennedy Ryan 0:13 / #
seriously
Sarah MacLean 0:15 / #
That is the dulcet, melodic, I would think probably tone of Kennedy Ryan one of our very favorites. Welcome Kennedy.
Kennedy Ryan 0:24 / #
Oh my gosh, you guys are my very favorites. I'm always pushing your podcast down people's throats.
Sarah MacLean 0:31 / #
That's what we like to hear.
Jennifer Prokop 0:32 / #
Yes it is.
Sarah MacLean 0:32 / #
T o hear about people just violently requiring people to listen to us.
Kennedy Ryan 0:36 / #
All the time. I was just screenshotting the one you guys did about old school romance. The one you did not too long ago, the Judith McNaught episode, I was shoving down every throat I could find last week so, I'm your pusher.
Sarah MacLean 0:51 / #
I like it. We're here for it. Welcome everybody to Fated Mates. We are really, really excited this week. I didn't know this. I feel Kennedy, you and I, we have just sort of unpacked our friendship to a new level. I had no idea you were such a fan of old school romances.
Kennedy Ryan 1:15 / #
Oh my gosh, yeah, I definitely am. A lot of times people will bring up some of the new stuff. And I'm like, Oh, I haven't read that yet. Sierra Simone and I have a joke because she's like, "how have you read all the old stuff? And there's all this great new stuff you haven't gotten to yet". I just keep rereading the old stuff it's so good. I'm that chick.
Jennifer Prokop 1:40 / #
I'm rereading a lot in these pandemic days. I really am.
Kennedy Ryan 1:44 / #
I have books that are annual rereads for me. Books that are built into my reading schedule. I have to reread this book, once a year. Certain books like, "Flowers from the Storm", like they're just certain books I have to read at least once a year.
Sarah MacLean 1:58 / #
Well, you are a mega Kinsale Stan
Kennedy Ryan 2:01 / #
Oh gosh yes. Mega, Mega. I tell people if you cut me I'm gonna bleed some Kinsale. I adore her. Everybody who knows me knows that.
Sarah MacLean 2:14 / #
Did you start with Kinsale? That how you came to her?
Jennifer Prokop 2:17 / #
Yeah. Tell us your romance journey. I feel like we should ask everybody this.
Sarah MacLean 2:23 / #
Are we just diving in.
Sarah MacLean 2:26 / #
We are. I mean, we'll come back around. We're just roaming.
Kennedy Ryan 2:29 / #
I'm ready, roaming romance. I am ready for it. So I think of myself as twice blooded. I started reading romance, well, for me, it's really young. I was in eighth grade. And you have to understand my parents are pastors. So they, they were very careful about what I listened to, what I saw on television, what I read was very much curated in our house. When I was in the eighth grade, one of my friends handed me "A Pirate to Love". I think it was "A Pirate to Love". No, it was "The Wolf and the Dove". And it was this old battered copy. Because I'm, I think I'm older than both of you. This was like, gosh, it was like the late 80s. When I was in the eighth grade because I yeah, I'm 47 so
Jennifer Prokop 3:22 / #
I'm almost 47 so we're very close.
Kennedy Ryan 3:25 / #
I still got you Jen. I still got you.
Sarah MacLean 3:28 / #
I'm so young.
Jennifer Prokop 3:30 / #
It's nice not to be the old lady on the podcast. I guess.
Kennedy Ryan 3:33 / #
I will gladly take the honor of old lady. So I was in the eighth grade. And, you know, I mean, romance was pretty, I mean, as we know it as a genre still really developing. Um, and so she gave me this tattered paperback of "The Wolf and the Dove". Of course, that's what it was. And I just consumed it.
Kennedy Ryan 3:58 / #
Still Sarah and I talk about it, I think because that was my first romance, medieval still holds a really special place in my heart.
Sarah MacLean 4:06 / #
Well, I mean, we've talked about this. All of us have talked about this. And certainly we've talked about it on the pod. But the these early books like blooded twice, I can't wait to hear who the second blooding is. But blooding twice is really interesting because those early books, I really think they install your buttons, your, you know, Primal sex buttons.
Jennifer Prokop 4:26 / #
I was gonna say plot buttons, but ok.
Sarah MacLean 4:32 / #
Both. Both.
Kennedy Ryan 4:34 / #
Yeah. And I mean, at the time, you know, you're I was in the eighth grade and I had no idea well, this book's kind of rapey or I had no concept of that. It was just like, I'm enjoying this, you know, it was just it was very sensory. I enjoyed the pull. You know, I was reading, you know, Wuthering Heights, or whatever. You know, "Beloved", I was reading literary fiction or whatever they were feeding you in school? And something that was completely pleasure. And also for me, because I was young and I was such a late bloomer, like, don't even ask me when I had my first kiss. It was like 11th grade. For me, it was just all fascinating, honestly, and to see a relationship that way. And there was history, you know, I did, I hadn't known much about the Normans. And, you know, these marriages being, you know, arranged by this king, you know, I didn't know a lot of those things. So I was actually learning those things as I was reading.
Sarah MacLean 5:36 / #
You know, that's one thing that we never talked about is the amount of learning that goes on for romance readers, especially when we're young. I mean, I always joke that like, my SAT scores were really great and verbal and really terrible in math. And the reason why they were great and verbal is because of romance novels, because I knew all the words.
Kennedy Ryan 5:55 / #
Absolutely. And my father, he was the Dean of Students. He's in higher education. And he would, when I was growing up, he would assign, this is gonna sound crazy, he would assign me letters of the dictionary. And I would just read the dictionary and he would come home and he would quiz me on "N", you know, and we would go back and forth until we could stump each other on an "N" word. Oh that sounded bad, bad choice of letters. But you know, and he would say, okay, when you're reading every time you come across a word that you don't know, write it down. And then over the next week, make sure you use it in a sentence.
Sarah MacLean 6:31 / #
You know, what I'm going to start using this for the summer with my daughter, this is such a good idea.
Kennedy Ryan 6:36 / #
It's amazing. And so my dad, that's what he would say, every time you're reading, you come across a word you don't know, write it down, look it up. You try to use it within a week so that it can become a part of your vocabulary. So I was doing that before. Then I started reading romance, you know that. You know,
Sarah MacLean 6:56 / #
You had all different words.
Kennedy Ryan 6:57 / #
All different words. Here's the thing you guys. I didn't know at first to keep it from my parents. I'm walking around, you know, I'm walking around. My mom is like, what is that? And she wanted to take it from me. And so I started smuggling romance novels into my house. I had them stuffed under my mattress, I would go to the library, and I would come out with like, my respectable books, and I would pack my back pack full of all of my, this is what I mean by twice blooded, because when I first came into romance, it was Joanna Lindsey, it was Kathleen Woodiwiss, and then I got into category. So it was Charlotte Lamb. It was Carol Mortimer, it was Robyn Donald, all those one name books by Carol Mortimer, like "Frustration". You're like, I have no idea what that means but I've got to read it. So my bag would be stuffed with all of my romance novels, and I would carry into the house all of my respectable ones. And then I would stuff them into the back of my closet and in my mattresses.
Sarah MacLean 8:02 / #
Oh my god, you turn to a life of crime.
Kennedy Ryan 8:04 / #
I actually did. I turned to a life of crime just to get my kicks.
Sarah MacLean 8:09 / #
The pastor's daughter. It's all there.
Jennifer Prokop 8:12 / #
I'm just like, podcast over.
Kennedy Ryan 8:17 / #
It was awful. It was awful. It was a secret life.
Sarah MacLean 8:20 / #
It was amazing. But you know what, so many of us did that. I don't know if I've ever told this story on the podcast. I've certainly told it in interviews, but I when, you know, when I was young, when I was in middle school, the library was across the Middle School parking lot. And you know, I would go there after school and they kept the romance novels literally in the dark. The lights were turned off in the aisles where they kept romances and I was like, well, this is clearly for me. And I like lurked in the darkness reading, you know, furtively any book that had Fabio on the cover and the reality is its like we are trained from, you know, infancy in romance to hide the reading.
Jennifer Prokop 9:06 / #
Yes. Can I tell you I think we've all had that, that experience. And so the thing that, like hurts me is when fellow romance readers talk about their kids wanting to read romance and them not letting them. And I'm just like
Sarah MacLean 9:22 / #
It's hard.
Jennifer Prokop 9:23 / #
But why? Don't you remember what that was like? Why are you doing that? It's really hard for me and I just keep my mouth shut. I leave romances all over my house. And you all know my extreme effin disappointment that my son cannot be bothered to read them. I'm just like, Oh, my God. I'm always like, Don't you want to take these to your friends?
Kennedy Ryan 9:48 / #
He's like, sure, mom.
Sarah MacLean 9:51 / #
Some day, I hope to have Tessa Dare on the podcast, but one of my favorite Tessa stories, she has a teenage daughter, but right when that you know, 12 or 13, that sort of sweet spot of when you find out that sex exists and you're like, "what is this about"? She got a call, I think from a mom at her school, who was like, all the kids are passing around your books, because they're reading and they're reading all the salaciousness. And Tessa's like, well, I don't know what to say about that. Like, I'm not gonna tell you that it's not a good, like, ultimately, wouldn't you like your kids to know that when they have sex, they should be having it in a thoughtful way with people who care about their pleasure and care about them. Right, and it's a tricky thing. I mean, I get it, I get the hesitance. But yeah, I mean, I can remember just sort of skipping over sex scenes for a long time because I just didn't, yeah, get it. So I mean, especially in those early
Jennifer Prokop 10:59 / #
The year of the euphemism.
Sarah MacLean 11:01 / #
What on earth is going on?
Jennifer Prokop 11:04 / #
What's a velvet cave?
Kennedy Ryan 11:10 / #
What is the member?
Sarah MacLean 11:14 / #
Exactly, like you know it's something is going on.
Jennifer Prokop 11:17 / #
Is this a club that can be joined?
Kennedy Ryan 11:19 / #
I'm still stuck on the velvet cave. Its not so warm.
Jennifer Prokop 11:26 / #
You know satellite radio brings a lot of like, when we used to drive you know back before pandemic times, and had to go places, I heard the song by Sheena Easton and I really remember liking as a kid of sugar walls and almost drove off the road at how filthy it is.
Kennedy Ryan 11:50 / #
Oh, yes.
Sarah MacLean 11:51 / #
Oh, well, I mean, can we talk about Prince?
Jennifer Prokop 11:53 / #
I'm gonna say Prince wrote that right?
Sarah MacLean 11:56 / #
Well, yeah. Sheena Easton. So here's my here's a fun fact. And surely this is about to become the musical theme of this episode. One of Eric's like very favorite things is to like drop Prince protege names just in conversation. Yeah and I so I know Yeah, Sheena Easton was a prince protege and he probably wrote that song for her.
Kennedy Ryan 12:15 / #
I'm pretty sure.
Jennifer Prokop 12:17 / #
He wrote all of those sex euphemisms songs.
Kennedy Ryan 12:20 / #
Darling Nikki.
Sarah MacLean 12:27 / #
Oh my boy. I mean,
Kennedy Ryan 12:32 / #
I think Vanity was one of his protege. All of them and my husband had all of them on his wall growing up, he actually saw Prince like in the bathtub before Prince, you know, stopped doing his nasty stuff live. We got a whole, he calls a door, he calls it a hymn. He refers to a door as our hymn. The full extended version now.
Jennifer Prokop 13:16 / #
You guys just this morning Charis Hodges on Twitter posted the most amazing tweet it says, "I was today years old when I found out that Prince stole Rick James's woman and turned her into Vanity". Prince a hero in every way.
Kennedy Ryan 13:35 / #
He rest in purple.
Sarah MacLean 13:39 / #
Kennedy, you just became Eric our producers favorite romance novelist. Yeah. Period. Hands down. You're gonna have to come back again and again.
Kennedy Ryan 13:50 / #
No effort.
Sarah MacLean 13:51 / #
You said vanity. Oh was a prince protege. And now that's it. You're his favorite.
Kennedy Ryan 13:56 / #
I will not be dethroned. I will figure out how to stay at that top spot.
Jennifer Prokop 14:01 / #
There's no one else. We've never met someone who knew so much obscure Prince trivia. To all of our listeners out there, when the world gets back to normal if you're ever in Minneapolis, please go visit, his studio is now like a tour you can go on and we went as a family and it was honestly one of the best like touristy things we've ever done. It was awesome.
Kennedy Ryan 14:30 / #
I would just die. And you know his family has given Ava DuVernay who I mean I have to genuflect when I say her name because she's a goddess. But the family has given her access to like his full catalogue, like hundreds of songs he never published. And she's working on something about his life. Ava and Prince together. Shut the house down.
Sarah MacLean 14:53 / #
Well, so euphemisms, sex euphemism.
Kennedy Ryan 14:56 / #
Yeah, Like the velvet cave, which sounds very woman.
Sarah MacLean 15:00 / #
Similar to Prince, these early sex scenes, that you might not understand exactly what's going on but you definitely know it's dirty.
Kennedy Ryan 15:08 / #
Yes, yes.
Sarah MacLean 15:11 / #
Yeah, okay, so we have Woodiwiss, you are like blooded by the original.
Kennedy Ryan 15:19 / #
Yeah, I mean
Sarah MacLean 15:20 / #
You're like the most powerful vampire.
Kennedy Ryan 15:22 / #
I a m an original. It was, Woodiwiss, you know, if you've ever read "The Wolf and The Dove" like, it does, it has the rapey overtones because, in the beginning, I was about to say I don't want to spoil "The Wolf and The Dove", I mean come on now.
Sarah MacLean 15:45 / #
It's 50 years old I think its ok.
Kennedy Ryan 15:50 / #
You know, when it first starts she does a great job of, redirecting you, misdirecting you for the entire novel, you know, so you think that I hate that I still know these names. You think that Ragnar has raped her? But he hasn't, you know and then so he hasn't raped her, her mother intervened and put some blood on, you know her kirtle.
Sarah MacLean 16:15 / #
Oh, famous blood. All the blood scenes.
Blood on the kirtle trick was and this wolf God doesn't actually rape her, he instead chained her to the foot of his bed and wants everyone else to think that he's raping her. Because he has his machismo that he has to maintain, but he doesn't actually rape her. And when they come together, member to velvet cave, it's painful and we think it's painful because, hey, she's only had sex one time and Wulfgar is hulking with a huge member, but it's really because she's an actual virgin and she wasn't raped.
And everyone knows sex is never painful after the first time. And the first time you bleed, like a gallon of blood.
Kennedy Ryan 17:03 / #
You have to, even though we dont have to display the sheets anymore. It still gushes from your body.
Jennifer Prokop 17:10 / #
I will say I remember a lot of those old historicals where like people displayed the sheets. I will say there's like, there's like installing your buttons. And then there's like, the anti buttons, whatever you read, and I remember like as a teenager reading those scenes and being like, listen, what the fuck this is not ok.
Kennedy Ryan 17:31 / #
Never okay.
Sarah MacLean 17:34 / #
So yeah, but also there's something. It goes back to we've talked about this, whenever we talk about medievals, right, and then being them sort of having that kind of over the top. Wild bananas storyline. And the reality is, is like something about that is really primal for so many of us. And there's something, but again it sort of strips away all the trappings of gentility and hands you a hero who is just raw patriarchy and has to be just destroyed. And you're what, tell everybody what you're reading right now?
Kennedy Ryan 18:17 / #
Well, I'm usually I'm usually so I have come to a place where my life is just really really hectic and most of the books I consume are through audio. So I'm listening to "Forbidden" by Beverly Jenkins.
Jennifer Prokop 18:31 / #
God one of my favorites.
Kennedy Ryan 18:32 / #
I just finished on audio. I'm just telling people because it's spectacular. It's not even historical. I just finished "Beach Read" on audio, which is fantastic.
Sarah MacLean 18:44 / #
I love that book, I really did. Jen hasn't read it but its so good.
Kennedy Ryan 18:48 / #
It's so good. Jen. The writing like sparkles. Anyway, it sparkles. But I everybody who knows me knows that like historical romance is kind of it's like my favorite. And I have all the Kinsale, all they can sell on audio. Certain books they're so old you can't even get them in audio and I love a lot of those, like "Magnificent Rose".
Sarah MacLean 19:16 / #
Iris Johansen.
Kennedy Ryan 19:17 / #
Iris Johansen and you know what's so funny is I caught I said that I was twice blooded. Like when I was first blooded. I only read romance from the eighth grade until my senior year in high school. So I like five years of romance and a lot of that was category and I didn't know
Sarah MacLean 19:32 / #
Wait, so you stopped reading romance, cold turkey?
Kennedy Ryan 19:37 / #
You know, it's like, I know I went into college and I stopped reading romance and I just I don't know if it was because I was adjusting to so many things and there was so much to read and there was so much to do, but I just lost it. You know, when I started reading other things and doing other things and I just kind of lost romance for a really long time. I didn't pick romance back up until I was close to 40 years old. I had, my son has autism, and I had started a foundation for families who have children with autism. And I was running that foundation. And I was of course, raising a child with special needs. And I was advocating for other families. My whole life, like, it was autism and everything I read, everything I consumed was around special needs and waivers. I was drowning honestly. And I needed something for myself, I needed an escape. I needed something that just was purely pleasure for me. And I just remembered how much I loved romance. And I just picked up, I started going to the library again like just on my own picking up some of the things that I loved before, but I don't even remember, Kinsale I don't even think was in the mix. When I was blooded the first time, when I was first blooded I think Iris Johansen was I don't know if you guys remember she used to write for like Silhouette, some category romance.
Jennifer Prokop 21:01 / #
She wrote for Love Swept. They were so good.
Sarah MacLean 21:05 / #
They were so good.
Kennedy Ryan 21:07 / #
And some of the plots were like whoa, like over the top. I'm trying to think of this one it had like magical realism, I cannot remember the name of it. But she was like a, not a sorceress, but it's just it's some I was like
Jennifer Prokop 21:22 / #
I bet it was, "This Fear Splendor".
Kennedy Ryan 21:24 / #
I bet it was, "This Fear Splendor".
Jennifer Prokop 21:27 / #
And the reason I know that is because that's the one where they have sex on the horse and she's some sort of magical like Jensen expert, an expert I yeah, there was like a whole like kind of series where it was like her and Fayrene Preston and Kay Hooper.
Kennedy Ryan 21:45 / #
Kay Hooper, oh my gosh. When you said Kay Hooper and I remembered.
Jennifer Prokop 21:49 / #
And they would write like the three of them would write these trilogies where they each took one person and they would all come out and they did like the Delaneys which I think is what the but yeah, it was a lot.
Kennedy Ryan 22:04 / #
It was a lot right and so I remember that and so I remembered I liked Iris Johansen and I picked up in this whole reblooding, my second blooding, Kinsale was out and Iris Johansen had written the, "Magnificent Rogue". And that's the one I started rereading. And it is fantastic.
Sarah MacLean 22:27 / #
Also medieval.
Kennedy Ryan 22:29 / #
Again, also a medieval. It's and just to give you for anybody, and also I pride myself on kind of obscure historical romances that went, because it's like my secret pride when people ask for my favorite and I say something like, and some people will know these like "Night in Eden" by Candace Proctor.
Sarah MacLean 22:50 / #
Oh, I don't know that one.
Kennedy Ryan 22:55 / #
You guys, okay.
Sarah MacLean 22:56 / #
I'm reading it right now.
Kennedy Ryan 22:57 / #
Do you know Penelope Williamson?
Sarah MacLean 22:59 / #
Yes. Of course.
Kennedy Ryan 23:01 / #
Okay, so Penelope Williamson.
Sarah MacLean 23:02 / #
Wait, first repeat the other one. Now I got a pen cap in my mouth.
Kennedy Ryan 23:06 / #
I'm gonna start with who have the you know, Penelope Williamson, right. So I read some of hers like she wrote. "Wild Yearning". She wrote, she has a medieval that I love and I can't read the name right off the top, but I will anyway so you know, Penelope Williams, Candace Proctor is her sister.
Sarah MacLean 23:24 / #
What's what?
Kennedy Ryan 23:26 / #
When I found that out my mom was completely blown. And one of my favorite novels is "Night in Eden", and this is written like in '95 '97. And it reminds me and you know, everything in that that period was Regency or Medieval or you know, it was
Sarah MacLean 23:42 / #
It was really, it was the heyday of Medievals the early 90s. Yeah.
Kennedy Ryan 23:48 / #
So this felt so different because "Night in Eden", is about it's in the 1800s I can't remember where in the 1800s maybe mid
Sarah MacLean 23:59 / #
Who cares, yeah, we did a whole episode where we decided readers don't care.
Kennedy Ryan 24:03 / #
Yeah. But I think if I did Regency era, okay, so, um, she, the heroine kills her husband. She had a baby who died. You guys, this is fantastic because it's not even in England. She starts in England. I think she starts in England. And then she gets shipped to New South Wales as a prisoner like
Jennifer Prokop 24:26 / #
Dang.
Kennedy Ryan 24:27 / #
You don't even understand
Sarah MacLean 24:28 / #
Now, I feel like I do.
Jennifer Prokop 24:29 / #
I feel like, I'm like
Sarah MacLean 24:32 / #
Stick to Australia feels real familiar.
Kennedy Ryan 24:35 / #
So good, you guys. And she becomes an indentured servant. And she her baby. She's pregnant. She has her baby in prison. And then she's on the ship on her way to I don't want to give the whole thing away because a lot of people may have never read this.
Jennifer Prokop 24:48 / #
This is probably the first two chapters, who are we kidding I mean.
Kennedy Ryan 24:50 / #
It's at the beginning. I'm not gonna tell you everything because the plot get bananas. The plot gets bananas. You know, we love bananas, but so she gets on the ship. On her way to New South Wales as an indentured servant. Because she killed her husband. She was it was an accident. But of course but
Sarah MacLean 25:08 / #
But what but he was terrible and deserved it surely.
Kennedy Ryan 25:11 / #
But he was terrible. He was cheating on her. Okay, we'll find that out later, so I dont want to spoil things. Anyway, so her baby dies, her baby dies.
Sarah MacLean 25:21 / #
Candace Proctor just breaking rules.
Kennedy Ryan 25:23 / #
Girl, you just, all the rules this is '97.
Sarah MacLean 25:26 / #
Oh my god, it's not that early. Yeah, like to give everybody a frame of reference the Bridgerton's the following year are gonna be out.
Kennedy Ryan 25:35 / #
Wow, I didn't even make that connection.
Jennifer Prokop 25:37 / #
But I do. I feel like there is and I feel like it's true today too, that they're sort of like always a strain of romance that is doing the most.
Kennedy Ryan 25:48 / #
Yeah, yeah.
Sarah MacLean 25:49 / #
Well, it's real fearlessness.
Kennedy Ryan 25:52 / #
You guys you have no idea. This is so fearless. Because the captain who she's going to go work for, you know, work out her term for, he is of course, gorgeous, but he's just lost his wife. He has a baby. She has to nurse the baby. She nurses his baby you guys. Because shes got her milk.
Jennifer Prokop 26:16 / #
Of course she does.
Sarah MacLean 26:16 / #
It's like that Sandra Brown book. That we talked about. There's a old school Sandra Brown from earlier
Jennifer Prokop 26:22 / #
Where shes the wet nurse. Yeah.
Kennedy Ryan 26:23 / #
Yes wet nurse. Yes. That is the technical term.
Jennifer Prokop 26:30 / #
It's also in Romeo and Juliet isn't the nurse of her. It's her wet nurse.
Sarah MacLean 26:36 / #
It's rich people hired wet nurses back in the day.
Jennifer Prokop 26:42 / #
I hired a wet nurse to it was called Enfamil, god damn, people were like, isn't formula expensive? I was like, I'm gonna send this motherfucker off to college one day. I can afford a can of formula a week my god.
Kennedy Ryan 27:12 / #
I love it. The modern wet nurse. So yeah anyway I won't tell any more but it is fan freaking tastic.
Sarah MacLean 27:16 / #
well I know what I'm reading at the beach next month.
Kennedy Ryan 27:19 / #
God it is so good it has to build that's the other thing is I love the stories that really build and so "Flowers from the Storm" that's why I love Kinsale so much it and a lot of my friends when, I feel like I'm all over the place because you asked what I'm reading now I'm rereading "Magnificent Rogue".
Sarah MacLean 27:34 / #
Right thats what I was angling for. Got a better there's a better story in here. Candace Proctor.
Kennedy Ryan 27:41 / #
Oh gosh, Candace Proctor just nice a "Night in Eden". And so with "Magnificent Rogue". I don't know why I picked it up because I'm listening. I'm listening to "Forbidden" now of course, and I will read things and then listen to them. So I'm listening to that. It's amazing, but I just you know, picked up "Magnificent Rogue" again. And I was like, this is all about women's power, like completely and just to give people a setting it is Medieval. It's asked me to blitz like, well,
Sarah MacLean 28:12 / #
It's Scotland, isn't it?
Kennedy Ryan 28:13 / #
Yes, it is. He's a Highlander. He is a Scottish Earl. And he has an island, Cray coo. I'm not may not be pronouncing that. But he basically bends the knee to nobody. And Queen Elizabeth captures him. And this is before Mary, Mary Queen of Scots is executed. It's like right before she's executed. And it is the the plot is so what is woven so tightly and there's so much I love misdirection. There's so much misdirection, and then he is amazing. Like, he is incredible. He's tall, he has dark hair, he's gorgeous. He's arrogant, but not in like a douchey way in like impotence, you know, kind of way. She wants him, she's fought, she has captured him. She's been trying to capture him for years, been watching him for years and realizes that he's the perfect candidate to do what she needs me to do, which is to marry this young girl who is a royal bastard. We are led to believe and I'm not going to say that it's not because someone might read this. And it's too brilliant for me to give away. Even though it's 30 years old. Anyone who's somebody who's reading it for the first time, and we are, you know, she's the bastard daughter of Mary. And of course, there's all this tension between Mary and Elizabeth. And then James is on the throne in Scotland, like it's all of this royal intrigue. And then there's this girl who is somebodies royal bastard, who has been kept by this evil priest who has been like beating her and who has been feeding her all kinds of religious nonsense for her whole life. And it reminds me of, 0kay, this is what reminds me of McNaught's "Kingdom of Dreams". Wait did I just say that right? Yes. Okay, um, all she wants is home. All she wants is family. She feels like she's been starved for that. And when she sees his clan, because he does have to marry her, he marries her. And
Sarah MacLean 30:17 / #
Isn't it a marriage of, it's they make a deal is not going to be
Kennedy Ryan 30:21 / #
Its a hand fast. That's what they do. So it's short, it's supposed to be short. And the reason he does that is because he recognizes she's a political pawn. And she is, he is all about his Island. You know, he doesn't bend the knee to anybody else. He is like, I'm self contained over here. People want me for my trade routes. We got our own money. I don't want to be in nobody's, I don't want to fight anybody's war. Like he's possessively protective of his people. And she goes, I want to belong. You know, she sees the way he takes care of his people, the way he, because the thing that Queen Elizabeth uses to get him to marry her is that one of his kinsmen is with him and he's like, you can do whatever you want to do to me. I don't care. But then she says, I will hang him right now if you don't marry her. And he does. You know, he's like, you can kill me but you can't touch. He says, I protect what's mine. Nobody's ever gonna hurt with mine. And mine, mine mine, mine,
Sarah MacLean 31:21 / #
Mine, mine, mine mine mine.
That's my id, you know mine mine mine mine mine. But it's not even just applied to her. It's applied to anyone who's under his protection. She compares him to a falcon who spreads his wings over his whole clan and she goes, I want to be in the shadow. Oh my god.
Put it in my veins.
Kennedy Ryan 31:44 / #
She starts to find her power. And she is some royals daughter and he start, he knows that. But she starts to realize it. And she starts to realize she has power even when like even when they have sex like for the first time and second time around. Whatever, she starts to articulate the power for own pleasure, and he teaches her that he's like, you have power over me, I can't resist you. Do you know what I mean? It's like, and then
Sarah MacLean 32:12 / #
I'm going to go back and reread this book right now.
Kennedy Ryan 32:15 / #
There's another woman who comes and she's smiling and she's innocent. And as soon as the door like with all the guys, and as soon as the door closes, she's like, okay, here's, here's what we're gonna do. You know, its like power, she understands the patriarchy she's working inside of, and how to leverage her gifts and her power to get around them. You know, she's always, they're always looking for workarounds. And I love that about this book. And if she becomes, in the beginning, she's timid. She's weak on the surface, but she has this like steel backbone, and you begin to see her rise like and the power, by the end of the book is so clearly her novel. It's so clearly her story. It's so clearly she is the most powerful piece on the whole board. And he recognizes that too. I don't want to give it away, the 30 year spoiler, but at the end even he's like, what do you want me to do? I will leave my clan, I will do this, I will do whatever, you know, it's just the joy of it. So empowering.
Sarah MacLean 33:16 / #
You know what's interesting, though, is we talk so much about these crazy like, over the top plots. And the reality is is like, they're not they don't they're not just, they don't just happen to be they're overt and they have, they are there so that stories like this can overtly discuss power and how women have it and how women use it and where power comes from and how it can be wielded. Yeah, when especially when it's obscure power.
Jennifer Prokop 33:49 / #
I think it's about persistence to right like what we see is like this evolution of women in the face of like, you have to keep if you want to outsmart the patriarchy It's gonna take persistent hard work that you're going to keep doing in as many ways as you can until you get what you want and get what you need.
Sarah MacLean 34:09 / #
But these power moves, are they I mean, what's interesting is that these older plots, I mean, they don't really happen as much anymore in current day, but we still have heroines who can make Queen moves, don't we Kennedy?
Jennifer Prokop 34:28 / #
Oh Sarah.
Kennedy Ryan 34:28 / #
Seg to the way.
Sarah MacLean 34:30 / #
Rim shot!
Kennedy Ryan 34:37 / #
You're as smooth as ribbons.
Sarah MacLean 34:43 / #
No, but so I mean, I'm gonna just I'm just gonna like fangirl over "Queen Move" for a little bit here because I think so. You know, Jen talks a lot about when people sort of hit their Imperial period as writers and I feel like I have always loved your writing. I've always felt like you "take the finger" like you lean into fear when you're writing. And I think that and I think you're a magnificent writer. But "Queen Move" is like, elevated to a new. I mean the whole series but like, "Queen Move" is like, I feel like you are, you're writing at the top of the game, not your game, the game.
Kennedy Ryan 35:24 / #
My mouth is hanging open.
Sarah MacLean 35:29 / #
It just feels to me but part of what's glorious about "Queen Move", is this magnificent heroine, who is just, she you back her up against the wall emotionally right from the start from like page one. And then you unpack. I mean, there's a lot to love about this book. It's also really epic, in the way, that some of these old romances of I can see the bones of your blooding and in this book, you know and part of that is because I've just spent a year with Jen like really unpacking, what the bones of romance are. And it's clear to me that you're, you've been taught to write romance by all the people who taught me to write romance, too. So of course, I'm like naturally drawn to your books. But there's something just like
Kennedy Ryan 36:17 / #
Same because I just finished Daring. So fan girl over here. But you already know that I was texting you the whole time.
Sarah MacLean 36:24 / #
This is my turn. This is, it's my podcast, so I get to talk. So this so there's this epicness about the whole story, especially because you also are telling the story of multiple generations. Yeah. But, um, this I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the evolution of this particular heroine and like, and just tell everybody a little bit about where you came, how you came to her?
Kennedy Ryan 36:50 / #
You know, so the heroines name is Kimba. And for anyone who read "All the King's Men" duet, she is the best friend in The first two books of you know, the duet, "The Kingmaker", and "The Rebel King". And Linux is the heroine in that and just to give context, it's kind of like scandalous in the sense that they're like gladiators. You know, they're like white hat girls. So they start their own political consulting firm specifically to install people in power, who they believe will advance the causes of marginalized people. And so our heroine in those the duet is Native American, she's Yabba pi Apache. And Kimbo of course, is black. And so they are like all about the brown girls all about the black girls all about queer people, like they're all about marginalized groups and making sure that we're putting people in power who are going to advance those causes. And so I won't talk about everything that happens in the duet because that is bananas. That is a lot.
Sarah MacLean 37:54 / #
But like magnificently bananas. I'm here for all these. This is my Like I'm here from contemporary 2020 romance to take these risks, because I think we're still having these conversations. The patriarchy still exists. It's still, it's still coming for marginalized groups and women and, and it feels like these big stories deserve to be told now more than ever. So in some ways, they just have to be twisted a little bit.
Kennedy Ryan 38:26 / #
Yeah I think so and I think one thing that was interesting for me was when you talk about you know, how you're blooded, obviously the book that blooded me once and then twice and my twice blooding. My second blooding, that's when I discovered Kinsale, who is I mean, to me, like Kinsale is like the highest bar you can reach, you know, 'Flowers From the Storm", I adore. I found and I know, I just slipped back in historical mode. I'm sorry. I'll get there.
Sarah MacLean 38:57 / #
Come back around. It's fine.
Kennedy Ryan 38:58 / #
"Flowers From the Storm". When I read it, I just kind of sat there like, I can't even process what just happened, you know, because and I think when you talk about who are the writers who inspire you, I'm not even saying that I'm anywhere close or whatever be to Kinsale, but she is like the little angel on my shoulder when I'm writing because she does not pander to readers. She doesn't say, "Oh, they may not know this word", or she doesn't say,"Oh, this might be too hard". Or she doesn't say "wow, they're gonna have to get through this first". She is fearless. And she's like, either you're with me or you're not? Yes, the Duke is gonna have a stroke. And no, he's not going to speak right for the rest of the book. And yes she's a Quaker and she's gonna say "thee and thou" for the whole book deal with it. You know, it's like she is just and the intricacy of the way she writes in the way she developed plots, it affects me. And that kind of just for an example, when you read "Shadow Heart", which again Medieval, you know she has a medieval, not even a duology because they're standalone, but it's "For My Lady's Heart". Yeah, they're companions for my lady's heart and then years later she writes shadow heart and the hero is the best antihero he has an actual assassin.
Jennifer Prokop 40:20 / #
I love assassins I do.
Kennedy Ryan 40:24 / #
I love assassins. Okay, this is the level of assassin this dude is he's tried there and I think street market and he and again it's Medieval and he needs her to shut up and she's screaming and screaming and to me she doesn't get it. He does that like pressure point face and neck. And she faints. She fainted. And He is ruthless. I know it sounds like an asshole but he's amazing.
Sarah MacLean 40:57 / #
I like that. I know he sounds like an asshole.
Kennedy Ryan 40:59 / #
But this is the thing. She becomes again the same as like with the "Magnificent Rogue", she is the heir to something that he and another guy have been fighting for. She's the rightful heir to it. Like she is the princess. And they've been fighting because the throne has been vacant and she takes the throne. But at the beginning she's just like this simple farm girl you know who is kind of stumbling along and doesn't even know her own power. But there are elements Now think about how long ago, this was elements of BDSM strong elements of BDSM in a Mideval.
Sarah MacLean 41:35 / #
Kinsale is real kinky.
Kennedy Ryan 41:37 / #
She is oh my gosh, when I tell you, and this is the brilliance of Kinsale.
Sarah MacLean 41:43 / #
Jen is like "what is happening"
Jennifer Prokop 41:45 / #
I'm enjoying it all.
Kennedy Ryan 41:48 / #
Okay, so it's a Medieval we're going to I'm going to get back to Queen so sorry. It was a Medieval, we're going right we're moving right along and the whole time I'm in love with him like I'm in love with him because he's magnificent and he is fearless, and he's ruthless, but also protective and obviously really into her. And she discovers that she has these dominant kind of tendencies and he who was like so powerful, so alpha has these, you know tendencies where he wants to be dominated in an instance you know, in sexual situations and so they start to play with that. And I'm the whole time I love dual POV and it's it's just her POV, her POV and the whole time like, gosh, I would love to know what he's thinking. Chapter 17 she has him, he's much taller than she is. He's standing against the wall she is she gets on a step so that she can mount him. And all of a sudden, like chapter 17 or something, it switches to his point of view. We have not heard his point of view for 17 chapter.
Sarah MacLean 42:51 / #
Magnificent. That is a baller move.
Kennedy Ryan 42:56 / #
Baller move like drop the mic.
Jennifer Prokop 42:59 / #
This is where I've got to tell you as a reader, I don't like it. I'll tell you why. Cuz now I'm like, listen, you've been keeping this man from me.
Kennedy Ryan 43:13 / #
But you get him for the rest of the book Jen, the rest of the book. It works so hard. Like, because its around chapter 17 somewhere around there. And then he's there for the rest of the book, it switches points of view for the rest of the book. And it is just anyway, it's magnificent. So that kind of just intricacy, of plot, just saying readers, just come with me, you know, I'm not looking over our shoulder like, Are you still with me? Are you still with me? I'm like, okay, either you're coming or you're not like, Yeah, and I really hope that you do. And I'm going to try to make it as easy for you as possible. But I'm not going to compromise on the story that I want to tell. And I see that, that in Kinsale like that is, it's some, it's just magnificent in her.
Sarah MacLean 43:59 / #
I think this is the thing right Jen, Jen and I were talking this morning about a different book. And we were, we were just having conversation about whether or not she's reading a book that I've already read and and whether or not it worked for her and, and I, here's my problem is as a writer, I really like it when someone takes that risk. Like, no one's ever done this thing before. Maybe it won't work, but I'm going to do it and we'll see. Yeah, right. And I think that that, that confidence, and I do think it is con, I think it's learned. I think sometimes you see that in a debut and it's naive. It's not the right word like Yeah, right. It's just that you've never you don't know what you don't know. And so you just sort of, you're just writing into the wind, and you end up writing some sort of book that really sort of pushes the boundaries of the genre in an really interesting way. But often when we see that in a debut, the following books can't keep up with that. Yeah, so but when somebody like Kinsale pulls this behavior or you, Kennedy, then what you're seeing is confidence in skill, in like the writers confidence in their own skill, but also a sort of very clear belief that readers will follow.
Jennifer Prokop 45:16 / #
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I joked or whatever but like, right, I think it all it things work if the craft is there and one of the things I actually like really struggle with and I can't imagine you two as authors do not either, is the sort of narrative that like writing romance is just like, it's always the same. And you know, it's just this like, silly thing when you know, women are well used to be that women do, you know, that it's just a silly genre. And I think that when people take big risks with craft, their craft as authors, right? I want, I want the world to appreciate. I don't really actually maybe care what the world thinks I want romance readers, at least to appreciate that there's work that goes into this right. Like reader that readers are seeing, you know, again, that Imperial period thing like, right, like we are seeing authors that are making really explicit choices and so given what you just described about this book it actually totally makes sense to me like she unlocks him somehow and now he's on the page.
Sarah MacLean 46:16 / #
And what a great use of sex to in that moment. Anyway, stop right there I'm cutting Jen.
Jennifer Prokop 46:21 / #
No, no, but I think like that's the part I, the thing about like, the bananas books kind of narrative is, we as insiders to the genre, like see what it's doing, but I sometimes feel like outsiders to the genre use it as like a weapon a snicker. That's, you know, I don't really care but I went inside I just want us to appreciate like, craft choices are our craft choices, and it's not accidental people are making decisions and I do like that, despite my earlier.
Sarah MacLean 46:57 / #
I mean, this is one of those things Jen to where it's so I mean, I'm sure I know I know you well enough now that I know that you are very you are really enjoying this conversation with Kennedy. And I think that part of it is the joy of like talking to somebody who knows the history. You know, we're about to, next week, we have an episode recorded with Steve Ammondon and it talks about somebody who just knows every knows the history of the genre and is able to really unpack why. You know, it's like that scene in "The Devil Wears Prada" where. What's her name? Help me, Help me know the other one. Marianda, what's her name? Sarah, the actress though. Meryl Streep or Meryl Streep says to Anne Hathaway like you're wearing yes, that blue sweater.
movie dialogue 47:51 / #
Oscar de la Renta did a collection of civilian gowns and then I think it was the salary or wasn't it who showed civilian military jackets. I think we need a jacket here.
Sarah MacLean 47:59 / #
Yeah. On the cover of Vogue, yes. Like, like meta, like, yeah, you think this is foolish. But it's not. Because it's all, I can show you how it's built. And I think when you talk to somebody who knows the bones of the genre, you can really unpack these questions of why are, why is switching the POV during a sex scene for the first time, to a man? Yeah, power move for the heroine and for the writer. And, and why like we've never seen we don't see that usually in books.
Kennedy Ryan 48:43 / #
And I, I think that kind of intention. Now it feels very intentional. And she can pull it off like she has the craft back it up.
Sarah MacLean 48:52 / #
And there aren't many who can pull that kind of shift. Oh, 17 chapters and then you get a new POV.
Kennedy Ryan 49:00 / #
Absolutly and he stays with, he stays with you for the rest of the novel, you know, switching back and forth, but
Sarah MacLean 49:06 / #
I mean, it's real bold itself. You know who else has done that? Um, Kennedy, have you ever read Anne Mallory?
Kennedy Ryan 49:13 / #
Yes. I can't remember which of hers.
Sarah MacLean 49:15 / #
You read the one I'm sure you read the one that I told you read, probably which is the one with the chest scene, huh? Have you read that one, where she sells herself to basically like, he wins her in a in a bet from her father. And then they play chess for 70 pages. But there's another Anne Mallory and I'll find it I don't remember the title but I will find it and put it in shownotes that does a similar thing. I mean, clearly as an homage to this Kinsale but does a similar thing where for the first like third of the book, you don't get the hero. And then you get the hero. And it's really I remember reading that and just being like, wow, this is a bold move like but Anne writes like she doesn't write romance anymore. Unfortunately. She's another writer who every book was different. Like every book took a different risk.
Jennifer Prokop 50:06 / #
A generation of romance isn't like the same as a generation of people. Right? And so, you know, we're not talking like 25 years, and these are all in the same group. I mean, I think a romance generation is maybe like, 10 years, maybe. Or, you know, and and so it's like, "50 Shades" since "50 Shades" seems like a generation, right? Since like, "Bet Me" and like between "Bet Me" and "50 Shades" was another one. And I think that the thing too, is like when we think about how, like narrative choices have changed over time, right, like that was, it would be very hard to imagine someone doing that today. And not, you know, like, when I first joked about not liking it, it's because I was thinking about 2020 Jen, right, not thinking like, Hey, that was three generations of romance ago. And yeah, and the books just read differently.
Sarah MacLean 50:57 / #
I mean, that probably shattered some readers. Imagine I mean, I bet what's interesting too is I bet readers were really frustrated by the idea. When was that book? Do you? Do you know, Kennedy?
Kennedy Ryan 51:08 / #
No. Are you talking about are you
Sarah MacLean 51:10 / #
The Kinsale?
Chapter 17, Kinsale.
It's "Shadow Heart".
Let me see, maybe 10 years between the companion novel, and like the first one, it's like maybe 10 years between them because I want this one won. This one won, The Rita, which was let me see
It's first published in 2004. In 2004, we've never seen we really rarely saw single POV romance novels. Until, you know, no, 2010.
Jennifer Prokop 51:46 / #
No, that's not true. It was just always the heroine, like all of early romance was heroin only.
Kennedy Ryan 51:55 / #
Well, I don't know because "The Wolf and The Dove", is double point of view. It is omniscient. But it's well, it's double point of view.
Sarah MacLean 52:03 / #
You know those heroes are hard to crack. Cuz that's the problem, right?
Kennedy Ryan 52:07 / #
Yeah. Well, and I think when you talk about the hero we talk about and this I think goes back to you asking me about "Queen Move". And what imprints us like of course those first novels because I was blooded with like "The Wolf and The Dove" and "Agetting out Pirates Love" now "Pirates Love" is racy. But I mean, it's like that alpha male, you know, that it imprints on you and it kind of changes over the years but I find myself still enjoying that dominance but now as a grown woman, now as a, you know, fully understanding feminist, that, that, that primalness, that archetype still appeals to me, but it's it has to be filtered through my philosophy, my personal worldview, my personal belief system now. So I find myself grappling as a reader and as a writer with that line where I feel like you've crossed into male toxicity, or you, you know, I find myself you know, examining that line a lot in my work. And when I wrote, I had to be super super, super careful when I wrote "The All the King's Men" duet, the duology because the heroine is Native American and the hero is white. And there is such a harmful history where in romance, that relationship that power dynamic has been appropriated, has been harmful, has been stereotypica, has been demeaning, has stripped native women of dignity has stripped uh, you know, indigenous people of their, you know, the culture. So even when I was the research that went into that was, it was the hardest research I've ever done. It was a it was a lot. I literally was consulting a medicine man for parts of that book to make sure that I got it right and course had indigenous sensitivity and responsive readers from that tribe and from other tribes. So it was a whole thing. But then I had this alpha male, and it was like, how am I going to have this alpha male with this Native American heroine and not perpetuate that? And it was such a delicate balance, you know, it was starting the relationship had to evolve over the two books, even their sexual, she first of all, she had to be an alpha female, you know, she, it had for me to feel like I was striking the right balance. She was an alpha female. So she was very assertive. She was very powerful. There was no dominating her, you know, he I didn't ever do you know what I'm saying?
Sarah MacLean 54:43 / #
Yes, of course,
Kennedy Ryan 54:44 / #
But even you know, how you might say something like is a savage kiss or something like that, that that word couldn't be in the whole book. You know, it's like, oh, no, you can't do that. Okay, you know, so you there's like this even tighter filter, and I found myself really having to restructure, what the alpha male looked like in that in that context, and then when I wrote it is very different cuz he is very dominant. And also I think that he becomes more sexually aggressive as the book goes on because we start to trust him as an individual. Do you know what I'm saying? Not as a caricature, but I think he can be more in the beginning. He's sexually aggressive, but not in the way he is, by the end of the book, by the end of the second book, because readers know him as a person, they get to know him as a person and to trust him with her, and see that she can trust herself with him without him perpetuating what we've seen before.
Jennifer Prokop 55:43 / #
Can I ask you a question? Because this, and this is really to both of you, which is I feel like there's a big conversation that I mean, really, in the past couple years that romance has been having about, like, sort of like the cinnamon roll versus the alpha and Kennedy like, what you're sort of seemed to be explicitly saying is if I'm interested an alpha hero and I'm writing male/female romance then what I need to create to balance that out as an alpha heroine.
Kennedy Ryan 56:07 / #
Um, I'm sure that it can be done. I'm sure that someone could do it without doing that, I think for the particular novel that I was writing, and the particular history that came with that ethnic mix in a relationship, I made that choice. But I mean, when I got to "Queen Move", I made a different choice, you know, where he is more, more of a cinnamon roll hero. And she is very, very powerful. And he is powerful. He's very, you know, very sexual in the bedroom, very sexually aggressive, and she's aggressive and she knows what she wants. She's in charge of her, her sexuality and her power and they have a conversation about their number. And he's like eight because he's been in a committed relationship for a long time and she's like, I have no idea what my number is. He is very secure. She needs that she probably makes more money than he does. Her job is higher profile. She's very, very powerful. And he is an educator, you know, he starts a school for underprivileged kids, a private school. So he's like, your zip code should not dictate your education. And he starts his private school that's, you know, funded. So he's an educator, and she is electing presidents. And he is completely secure, in the fact, that she makes more money than he does. He's completely secure, in the fact, that she's, you know, on CNN, commentating and he's not, and he's exactly what she needs. So, I don't know.
Sarah MacLean 57:43 / #
An arguably what the world needs in 2020. I mean, he's a model, right? Which is interesting because he sort of is a model, in the way, that a lot of these heroes have always been models like you establish the the hero who walks through fire for the heroine, the alpha here who walks through fire for heroin, and is sort of broken down and rebuilt for her in an image of like parody and partnership. That is, that is the hero that needed to be modeled for many, many years. And now we need a different kind of hero to model.
Kennedy Ryan 58:21 / #
in some cases, yeah.
Sarah MacLean 58:23 / #
But Ezra also, like Ezra isn't a cinnamon roll to the in the sense of like, there's not he's not just all soft all the time.
Kennedy Ryan 58:33 / #
No, no definitely not. No, um, he's introverted. He is very self contained. One thing that was very important for me, some people would call him a cinnamon roll hero like in reviews or in conversations, but he is Black and Jewish. So he's a man of color. And one thing that I think we don't see enough with men of color, whether that's, you know, black men, Latin x men Whatever it is, we don't see them so often, as fathers, as nurturers and he is a single dad. And I really wanted to unpack because he's very strong. He's quiet and strong. He's in direct contrast to Maxim, from the first from the duet who was like a mogul, you know, sustainable energy. And he becomes, you know, a place just as huge, charismatic, like bigger than life figure. And of course, we fall in love with him. But then there's this other guy who is so content with his life. You know what I'm saying? He's so on mission, his mission and he's not comparing himself or his life or his choices or his mission to anyone else's, and he has his own strength. So I want him to be as big and readers hearts as that, you know, living in Atlanta, running his school, doling out his son's vitamins every morning and making sure he doesn't drink Cokeyou know. Investing in his son, and seeing his son as his mission, raising a good human as his mission. I want that hero to be as big in readers hearts as this other guy who is this huge mogul of sustainable energy and ends up being president. You know, I want both. I want us I want readers to see the value of both and how both are fitted to these women. You know how they complement these women and they're exactly what this woman needs. And that's also the choice. We as women have to decide what we need, you know, the essence of feminism, your choice. And she chooses Ezra, you know, well, they they're fated. Fated mates. You know they're the same day their soul mate.
Sarah MacLean 1:00:41 / #
Clear Fated Mates to, I mean the one of my it's so early in the book I can sort of, I mean, it's chapter one.
Kennedy Ryan 1:00:49 / #
You can read it on Amazon.
Sarah MacLean 1:00:51 / #
But when I yeah, you can read it on Amazon. One of my favorites, I guess it's not chapter one. Oh, yeah, I know it is. I don't know. It's early. You can read it on Amazon. So the but it's but it's the moment where she sees him. I mean, this is the magnificent thing, right? Like she sees him at her. She's at her father's funeral. The book begins with her at her father's funeral. Yeah, the prologue, in comes this man who is the boy she loved as a child. I mean, there it is, right? My pure ID, right? But it's the boy that she loved as a child and he has his child is there and so is this child's mother, who you are led to believe, is this man's perfect, beautiful wife. And it is so heartbreaking for to watch this heroine who is buttoned up like at her father's funeral like, cannot refuse this reveal kind of really any emotion. And here she is kind of whacked in the head by this boy she hasn't seen in years, who was her first love right? And then whacked in her head in the head again by the fact that he has This beautiful wife who's with him. And, and then, and this beautiful child and this like perfect and her family, as you're reading this, her family is also just in shambles, I mean, destroyed by the loss of this father figure. And so like the compare the, I mean, it's just the moment. I mean, you read that that scene and it's just so perfectly balanced. And it's I mean, it's just amazing. And then of course, you know, they're not like the wife is not really a wife. And so like it sort of unravels the way a romance novel should.
Kennedy Ryan 1:02:39 / #
Yeah, well, and you know, I think one thing that people someone interviewed me last week and they were like, you don't usually have weddings in your books. I you know, because my weddings are hard. They are hard, but I think a lot of and I will often do weddings and bonus epilogues as opposed to the actual like cannon of the novel itself, and I, I like writing books where the wedding is not the point, you know, so often it feels like
Jennifer Prokop 1:03:07 / #
Yeah, the wedding is never the point, right.
Kennedy Ryan 1:03:09 / #
You know, like getting to the altar, you know, is the point and I, I wrote a series called the grip series. And in the third book, it's a trilogy with the same couple across three novels. And you're like, What is she going to do in that third book, you know, because they get together at the end of the second book, and they get married pretty early in the third book. So I like writing books where the point can't just be that they're happily ever you know, that they get together. There's all these other things and the series that I'm working on now, all the couples are married, you know, it's like, so the point can't just be to marry each other. You know, and I think for me, it's so much more about the journey, and what that looks like, than just them kind of getting together.
Sarah MacLean 1:03:55 / #
Don't you feel that partially that marriage the marriage book becomes more approachable for you as a reader as you age. Yeah, I can remember that when I was a kid marriage of convenience was just my least favorite trope. I just didn't care about how hard it was to be married. Or a second chance, right? With a married couple, who cares, right? But now I feel like there are certain writers who just do it so beautifully. And it's such a complex way of telling a love story.
Jennifer Prokop 1:04:27 / #
But I also feel like isn't that the greatest thing about romance is that like, there's so much there that as you age and grow and change in your life, in your relationships, like there's romances for you, this isn't a genre you have to lose. Because you're your life is different, right? It's and it's as Kennedy proved, it's a genre people can come back to and that's the part it's there's so much diversity and richness in the genre. And just like the types of stories that you can find yourself attracted to is.
Sarah MacLean 1:04:57 / #
Yeah, Kennedy can I Ask a craft question?
Kennedy Ryan 1:05:03 / #
Of course, I don't know if I'm a craft woman.But yes go for it.
Sarah MacLean 1:05:06 / #
I want to talk about that I want to go back to Queen mu because so I talked earlier about how there's this epic kind of generational story that's going on in this book. And I don't want to spoil anything about it. But you make a really interesting choice. And, and I thought, as I was reading it, you know, I knew "Daring and the Duke" was coming. And I have just done this sort of generation not generational, but like, long, long time love story, right? Like childhood love. I know, I know, I sort of feel like we should do this as an Instagram Live too, and just talk about this for an hour. But so well, I'm in if you are so anyway, but the question that I have specifically is, so you make a choice, and it's about 25% of the Is it about a quarter of the book, like, you mean, we're children. We're in the past we're in we're in the childhood. It's a lot time. And I mean, it's not I don't say that. I mean, I loved every page of it. But it's interesting because I mean, I, that I really struggled as a writer with making the choice of like, how much am I going to give them of the childhood versus the adult romance and I wonder if you had that struggle to or how you sort of came, but I also feel like your story being kind of multigenerational required that much energy. I don't know if this is a real question, but I feel like I want to talk about the choice the craft choice of giving readers the past for so long.
Kennedy Ryan 1:06:42 / #
Yes, it is about 20% of the book. Oh, you're probably right, roughly about 20. I think it's about six chapters. Yeah. And I think that what helped probably for me as I was writing it, is that it's so weird, you know, because you can do these time jumps and you get completely confuse readers, and I wanted to be clear about what I was doing because the part that you were just describing, which was, you know, at her father's funeral, and this boy that she, you know, was our first kiss her first, arguably her first love shows up 20 years later, they're seeing each other first time. That's the prologue. And it literally says, two years before the present, and you're like what the heck is that.
Sarah MacLean 1:07:26 / #
Well, but I love that.
Kennedy Ryan 1:07:28 / #
It was like this. Okay, Rita, you're in the present. This happened two years ago. So the prologue says two years before the present, and we see them as adults. And we know that there is a certain intimacy between them not there's obviously some kind of pull. That's there. And I think I had I put that there for those readers who don't want to have trouble with the childhood. You know
Sarah MacLean 1:07:56 / #
Yeah, I mean, I think it had to be there. Yeah,
Kennedy Ryan 1:07:59 / #
Like here's the promise.
Sarah MacLean 1:08:00 / #
yeah, yeah, eventually it's these two.
Kennedy Ryan 1:08:03 / #
Yes, it's these two. And the reason I felt like I had to go back and then I think it goes the next the first chapters like 1983. And it's in his mother's point of view. Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 1:08:14 / #
It's really cool.
Kennedy Ryan 1:08:17 / #
It's not even in one of their points of view. It's in his view
Sarah MacLean 1:08:21 / #
Babies, their babies. their literal babies.
Kennedy Ryan 1:08:23 / #
Infants in a bathtub. And, you know, she's orienting us, and it's 1983. And it's Georgia. And she's a Jewish woman who has married a black man in 1983, living in Atlanta, because her husband is on scholarship, you know, at Emory for law school. And she has left her her, her community of faith back in New York, very tight knit community that wasn't sure how they felt about her marrying someone, not even someone who was black, but someone who wasn't Jewish. And so she has had she's had tension with her family, but That's repaired. And she's navigating this whole new she feels she says she basically feels alone in the state, you know, in the whole state, when she goes out with her son people, you know, ask is that your son, you know, these are things that are real experiences. And I was fortunate enough to find people who are actually black and Jewish people who have actually negotiated the duality of those identities. And I definitely did not want to write a tragic mulatto story. You know, I didn't want to do that. And I did not go there. But just showing some of the real difficulty that a family living in that context would be navigating. But just as context, and we get and it begins the friendship because there's a couple of things. One of them is found family, their families live next door to each other and they become their families become close. And that was one of the things I really wanted to build in those childhood chapters. There was this foundation for that what becomes their relationship I want people to see from the beginning, the closeness that is kind of the foundation for everything. So we don't just go like it kind of skips fast, like, Yes, they're babies in chapter one, but we get to chapter two, they're 10 years old, you know, in the chapter three, they're 12 and then chapter four and five and six, they're like, 13 they're in the eighth grade. So it accelerates it starts when they're babies within an accelerates but all of these kind of key moments of childhood and adolescence or think she stutters, you know, when he's there for her and then she has her you know, I'll just say that she has he rcycle, you know, all every girl has had that thing of, oh my god, you know, you ruin a pair of pants and you know, and I was like, and people see it and he's protective of her and wrapping his coat around her waist. And you know, it's like all of a sudden they have their you know, their you know, dance right before they're going to high school and, you know, she's with this, you know, this not great guy who wants to be her first kiss. And she's you know, it's just all this stuff you know the all of the adolescent angst before you're in high school, all of that stuff and they're there for each other.
Sarah MacLean 1:11:10 / #
Well, thats what makes when Ezra leaves. Yeah, when Ezra's parents divorce and his mother takes her, takes him back to New York to her family,
Kennedy Ryan 1:11:21 / #
They don't divorce but or they don't divorce but something happens between the two families that explodes the friendship between those two families and they end up moving away
Sarah MacLean 1:11:30 / #
Ezra's family ends up leaving Georgia and going back to New York and it make the rift between the the end of that sort of intense childhood friendships so emotional and so amazing. And I think it's just such an interesting choice because I have done I've done a few of these childhood or young love to older, more seasoned love stories, and I think I always struggle with time. You know how much time to spend where and I just thought it was such a very important and like really cool choice to just lean into the past. I was brought I was reminded of Lisa Kleypas and "Again the Magic".
Kennedy Ryan 1:12:20 / #
I don't even talk about, "Again the Magic".
Sarah MacLean 1:12:27 / #
Where these two are just so intensely in so like for each other, and it's so clear that they're just that their Fated Mates. And then it breaks. And it it's, it breaks the reader's heart to I mean, it's just, it's really, I mean, you know, I love this book, and I just,
Kennedy Ryan 1:12:48 / #
I love books that do that. Have you not like obscure historical romance. So, you know, who nobody ever talks about, and I think it's because she has some tax troubles and not
Sarah MacLean 1:12:58 / #
Are you gonna say Megan McKinney?
Kennedy Ryan 1:13:07 / #
How did you know that?
Sarah MacLean 1:13:09 / #
Meghan McKinney is a real problematic person.
Is she? But I just knew that she kind of disappeared.
Boy she blooded me too. Yeah.
Kennedy Ryan 1:13:19 / #
She has a book called I think "When Angels Fall" and it's that it's the same thing where he works in her parents stables and their nobility and he is a stable man but he's somebody bastard. Yeah always somebodies bastard. And he ends up becoming like the Earl and then her family is destitute. And it's this whole intense, revenge. He thinks it's revenge. But of course, he's just obsessed with her.
Sarah MacLean 1:13:47 / #
Revenge is the best and worst motivation.
Kennedy Ryan 1:13:51 / #
Yes. So have you so have you read we the ground, "The Ground She Walks Upon", I think that's what it is by Mehgan Mckinny?
Sarah MacLean 1:14:00 / #
I mean i'm sure i that is not one I've read everything Meghan McKinney has written. But I mean we should say you can look this up on Wikipedia it's not a secret but she she lived in New Orleans and after Katrina she perpetuated a very large tax scheme of fraud and she went to prison, so I mean if Wikipedia is to believed that is what happened to Mehgan Mckinney.
Jennifer Prokop 1:14:29 / #
Well, I think there's some documented evidence.
Sarah MacLean 1:14:31 / #
There's some there citations.
Jennifer Prokop 1:14:35 / #
Hey, I before we wrap up, though, I actually have a
Sarah MacLean 1:14:38 / #
Jen's like, ladies.
Jennifer Prokop 1:14:41 / #
Like, let me save you from yourself. No, loving the Mehgan McKinney. Um, here's my question. Kennedy, your love for historical romance is so intense. Have you ever thought about writing one?
Kennedy Ryan 1:14:59 / #
Oh, gosh. so intimidated. I mean, I'm so I'm really intimidated by, I mean, my books are research heavy, but they're not like that type of research and I have thought about it. I honestly have. But I just get so scared. I get so intimidated by it. I don't know why.
Jennifer Prokop 1:15:21 / #
Well, it sounds like you do a lot of people research. Everything I've ever heard about you is how much you like talking to people. And I guess yeah, I can't, you know, dig out somebody from 1820 or whatever.
Kennedy Ryan 1:15:34 / #
Well, I mean, I have usually like, especially with a lot of it is and I think it's maybe my journalism background and all the interviews I always had to do, but it's something I lean into is people who have actually lived things that mirror you know what my characters are doing. So a lot of interviews, lots of conversations, but also lots of reading. I read, read lots of memoirs.
Gosh, for all the king's men. I was literally reading anthropological textbooks. I mean, it was just, it was really intense, but I wanted to get it right. So I think I have, I think I have the tools that I could, if I can just get over. First of all, it had to be something that compelled me, because I don't really write unless I feel compelled. And I know that sounds artsy fartsy. But I have to feel compelled by whatever that thing is at the core. And it's usually something that is happening. For me a lot of times something that's happening in the real world that I want to shine light on in the context of an epic love story. So those are the things that kind of get my wheels turning. But if I could find something like that, that is in a different era, it probably would be I don't know when it would be it might be in the 20s or it might be you know, it might be something like that probably is because I have I love a marriage of art and activism and a lot of what I write, and I would
Sarah MacLean 1:17:03 / #
Well Jazz Age New York, man.
Jennifer Prokop 1:17:06 / #
Harlem Renaissance I mean, there's so many Yeah, totally.
Kennedy Ryan 1:17:09 / #
Thats what I keep thinking about so I feel if I did venture into it'll probably be around there. There's a you know, because that's also you know, the explosion of literature and culture and just all the things that you know, that were amazing about that period. So
Sarah MacLean 1:17:29 / #
Well, I'll read whatever you write forever. So, Kennedy, thank you so much. Well, you come on again. This was so fun.
Kennedy Ryan 1:17:39 / #
Oh my gosh. This was so fun.
Jennifer Prokop 1:17:42 / #
It was amazing.
Kennedy Ryan 1:17:42 / #
Thank you guys for having me. I'm such a fan and I was so nervous coming on you guys.
Jennifer Prokop 1:17:49 / #
Well it was so fun.
Kennedy Ryan 1:17:51 / #
I was like, they're so smart. I'm not even gonna know anything.
Jennifer Prokop 1:17:54 / #
No, you were great. You knew all about Prince's many proteges, I was going to say backup singers and I was like that's not the word.
Kennedy Ryan 1:18:05 / #
If no one else wants to be Eric, is it Eric?
Sarah MacLean 1:18:09 / #
That's it you're his new favorite.
Thank you so much, everyone. This is our second to last episode of the season. Jen, tell everyone what they won next week. So I guess I talked about it already.
Jennifer Prokop 1:18:25 / #
Steve Ammidown from the Bowling Green Pop Culture Library is going to be here and we are going to go back and revisit. I'm actually super excited about this. We each read some of the books that were originally acquired by Vivian Stevens. And so we will be talking about some of those early historicals I'm sorry, early contemporaries in that essentially, in in, in series that she like founded and put into place and what those books were doing so we think it's gonna be a really cool episode, and we're gonna all enjoy.
Sarah MacLean 1:18:56 / #
For those of you who've been sort of, you know, curious, whenever we talked about Vietnam, there's a lot of discussion of Vietnam and next week, so, um, you know, get ready for that. And then we're taking some weeks off, but there will be new episodes or at least new content every week. While we are off, but we are back the first week of August with season three. And we are we have a plan. A plan now we have a plan but this is Fated Mates. You can find transcripts for many of our episodes, all the music that's in all the episodes merch and other cool stuff at Fated Mates.net I have a book out came out last week. You can listen you can find "Daring in the Duke" in bookstores, wherever books are sold and listen to last week's episode once you've read "Daring in the Duke" and there's lots of spoilers in there. But most importantly, Kennedy Ryan was with us this week. Her recent book is "Queen Move". It is really truly magnificent. One of the best reads of my You're so far, surely it will be one of the best reads of my year period. Kennedy, where can people find you?
Kennedy Ryan 1:20:07 / #
I'm on Instagram a lot at Kennedy Ryan one and I'm on Twitter and I have a website, you know, all the places, even if you just go to my Instagram and click the link, it takes you all to all the places.
Sarah MacLean 1:20:23 / #
So find Kennedy in all those places and read her books and have a great, have a great couple of weeks.
Unknown Speaker 1:20:35 / #
Hi, my name is Danielle. I am in California and I am a community college teacher. I teach us history. And the book book that blooded me was Jennifer Wilde "Loves Tendered Fury", which now I know is written by a man, that I stole it off my mother was bookcase and read it and then she was like oh, maybe this isn't a good thing for you to read because as you know its a little rapey and then I plowed through like Barbara Cartland and my grandmother's Harlequin series. And eventually I went to graduate school and my grad school friend introduced me to Loretta Chase. And so I'm a big fan of "Lord of Scoundrels". I love your podcast. I love romance novels. They're getting me through the Coronavirus and Trump's presidency. And please don't stop your podcast because I love it. Thanks bye.
S02.43: Daring & the Duke: It's Grace and Ewan Week!
Sarah has a new book out, so Jen is playing host this week, and Sarah is playing guest, and Jen is really outrageously good at it…move over Terry Gross! Find Daring & the Duke wherever books are sold, including Amazon, Kobo, B&N, Apple Books, Books-a-Million, or at your local indie via Bookshop.org.
Show Notes
You can listen to all of our walk-up music suggestions on the Fated Mates Spotify playlist. But in case you've never seen The Music Man, the song Marian the Librarian is very cute.
Sarah wants to be a guest on Fresh Air. (Jen obviously does, too, but has to actual cause to be interviewed. So #TeamSarah.) Do we know anyone who knows Terry Gross?
If you can't wait, you can listen to us on the Deerfield Public Libary podcast, but we're going to drop it into our own feed later this month. So no worries.
Jen thinks Sarah is in her imperial period--a phrase Jen learned from listening to the Hit Parade podcast.
The past year have had some great books about rage and feminism: The Seven Necessary Sins for Women and Girls, Good and Mad, and Hood Feminism are three we recommend.
We put children in factories all day, so of course kids fought, too. Sarah recommends The Fair Fight, a historical novel, about bareknuckle fighting kids.
Statler & Waldorf are the two old dudes up on the balcony during The Muppet Show.
The Victorian Age wasn't so great for women and other marginalized people.
That Jeffrey Epstein documentary is on Netflix.
Ewan's year-long break was inspired by The Player.
The myth of Apollo and Cyrene, and also a little about neo-classicism. One of our favorite myth retellings of the past few years, is Circe by Madeline Miller. Jessica Avery presented a paper at the Popular Culture Association about mythology in Sarah's books.
The Master's Tools will Never Dismantle the Master's House is the name of the essay by Audre Lorde. You should read it.
S02.41: Audiobooks with Voice Actor Justine Eyre
This one’s for you, audio readers! We’re thrilled to have a freewheeling episode this week featuring the fantastically talented Justine Eyre, who has narrated Sarah’s last seven books! Sarah & Justine had never talked until this conversation, when we were able to ask all the questions we’ve always had about how audiobooks work, and what makes them so great. And stay tuned until the end of the episode, when you can hear the first two chapters of the audiobook of Daring & the Duke, available wherever audiobooks are sold, June 30th!
We might not be doing read alongs until August, but that doesn’t mean your TBR won’t still be groaning under the weight of our recommendations — we’ve got a bunch of rec episodes lined up for summer…
Oh, and did you know Sarah has a book out in two weeks? Order Daring & the Duke from Amazon, Kobo, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Books-a-Million or from your local indie, or order it signed from her local indie, WORD Bookstore, and get a special edition Fated Mates sticker with your purchase!
As summer approaches, if you are up for leaving a rating or review for the podcast on your podcasting app, we would be very grateful!
Show Notes
Welcome Justine Eyre! Justine has narrated all of Sarah's books since Never Judge a Lady by Her Cover.
Join Sarah's Old School Romance Book Club (OSRBC) on Facebook.
Is Jane Eyre really "our favorite Jane"? Jane Austen would like a word.
Justine talked a lot about how audiobooks are made, but here's another great explainer about the role of narrators and audiobook production.
We recorded this before J. K. Rowling's latest terrible TERF rant, so take Jen's praise of Jim Dale's narrationwith a grain of salt.
Justine mentioned Scott Brick as a mentor, and his site has a guide for those interested in becoming narrators.
S02.40: A Kingdom of Dreams by Judith McNaught: A Romance Reader's Romance
It’s the last read-along of Season Two! We’re reading Judith McNaught’s A Kingdom of Dreams, which is the actual book that blooded Sarah when she was wee. This week we’re talking old-school romance, what McNaught was doing with this book and this hero who is so unlike all the heroes who came before him, and why (book) Jennifer is the perfect namesake for (our) Jennifer.
We might not be doing read alongs until August, but that doesn’t mean your TBR won’t still be groaning under the weight of our recommendations — we’ve got a bunch of rec episodes lined up for summer….oh, and did you know Sarah has a book out in three weeks? Order it from Amazon, Kobo, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Books-a-Million or from your local indie, or order it signed from her local indie, WORD Bookstore, and get a special edition Fated Mates sticker with your purchase!
As summer approaches, if you are up for leaving a rating or review for the podcast on your podcasting app, we would be very grateful!
Show Notes
Marty McFly, played by Michael J. Fox, was the main character in an excellent 1985 time-traveling movie called Back to the Future.
Sarah's next book, Daring and the Duke, comes out at the end of the month. Preorder from WORD in Brooklyn and you'll recieve a limited edition yellow Fated Mates sticker.
Whitney, My Love is an early McNaught historical romance that the author changed because in the original text, the hero rapes and horsewhips the heroine. The hero of A Kingdom of Dreams, Royce Westmoreland, is one of Clayton's ancestors, but we think he is McNaught correcting the record on the Alpha hero. In the IAD novella episode, we talked about the changes in Whitney, My Love. Whitney also came up in the Alpha episode that started the season, because it's impossible to talk about the primordial alphas without talking about the early Alpha.
More on the four books that comprise the Westmoreland series.
Who do we talk to get A Kingdom of Dreams on audio? Oh, you can email a request to Audible.
Jen learned about 1497 on Wikipedia. As one does.
Margaret Tudor was Henry VII's eldest daughter, married to James IV of Scotland to bring peace to the border. Fun fact, once James IV died (thanks for nothing, Henry VIII, you were the worst), Margaret acted as Regent until James V of Scotland, but when that didn't work out, she married two other dudes and also staged a coup, so we don't really know why we don't all sing her praise always. Yeah, we do. Patriarchy. Anyway. Sarah didn't learn about Margaret Tudor on Wikipedia, but you can.
All about the bliaut. Sarah would like you to know she looked up bliauts on Wikipedia after we recorded and now she's an expert. High-fives to all Wikipedia editors. Nothing without you.
Tinctures, tonics, and teas is Fated Mates shorthand for historicals where medicine women knew various herbal remedies for preventing or ending pregnancy. Or in this case, causing life-long impotence.
We talked a little bit about the freedom of setting a romance in Medieval times on our Scottish Romance episode, so head over and listen to that if you're interested.
Jen's obsessed with the idea of the Vietnam Hero, but doesn't know where to start. Probably with finishing the Ken Burns Vietnam documentary.
What would Jurgen Klopp say?
While we're talking about Judith McNaught and Wikipedia, do not sleep on her page. Divorce celebrations, Coors Brewing Company tie-ins, the invention of the non-clinch romance cover, moving to Dallas after going there on book tour...it has it all.
Support Black Lives Matter and bail funds in your city or state.
Register to vote. Already registered? Double check.