interstitial, romance recommendations Jennifer Prokop interstitial, romance recommendations Jennifer Prokop

14.5: Space Romance - There Are No Wallflowers in Space!

Well, it was destined to happen sometime—we’re taking the show intergalactic! This week we’re talking about space romance and why it’s totally. fricken. bananas. Discover the series that brought Jen and Sarah together, hear us talk about prison planets, sex planets, the Muppet Show and more. Series by Grace Goodwin, Emmy Chandler, Robin Lovett & Jessie Mihalik.

Transcript available

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We’re back to the Game Makers in two weeks with Jen’s favorite of the three books, The Master, and one of our favorites, Sophie Jordan! Get ready for chastity belts and string bikinis! Read The Master at Amazon, B&N, Apple Books, Kobo, or from your local Indie.

Show Notes

Transcript

Movie Dialogue 0:00 / #
And now another controvertable episode of

Jennifer Prokop 0:03 / #
Fated Mates. Welcome everybody. We're going to be talking about space romances. I'm Jen Reads Romance.

Sarah MacLean 0:13 / #
I'm Sarah MacLean. I write romance novels and I read romance novels. And all I want is for a pig's in space-style intro to this, where it's like, "Romance in Space!"

Jennifer Prokop 0:29 / #
Oh God, me too Miss Piggy was formative.

Sarah MacLean 0:34 / #
Man. "Pigs in Space" was the best. Also the -- I forget what it was called, but the General Hospital-style soap opera on the Muppet Show? We're super dating ourselves. Now. I'd like everyone to appreciate.

Jennifer Prokop 0:49 / #
I don't even care because it's amazing. She just, everything was so sparkly and silvery when she was in space. I loved it.

Sarah MacLean 0:58 / #
I know. I know. And it's making me want, I wonder if The Muppet Show's on Netflix? "The Muppet Show should be on something I would love to show my daughter The Muppet Show.

Jennifer Prokop 1:10 / #
Yeah, I'm, I'm pretty sure it's somewhere that's I remember going through that when our son was younger, and really being like, "We got to watch the Muppet Show, man." It's good times.

Sarah MacLean 1:19 / #
Well cause also, as a grown up, you come to Sesame Street with your kids. And then you realize all the good muppets are not on Sesame Street. The good smartass muppets, Miss Piggy, uh Gonzo, Fozzie Bear. None of them are on Sesame Street.

Jennifer Prokop 1:41 / #
One of my favorite Muppet movies is the one with Gonzo being from space. God, what was that one? Hold on. I gotta. I don't. Muppet Movie.

Sarah MacLean 1:54 / #
I don't know. But I do feel like this is giving Eric some meat food.

Yeah, there was a there was a movie that was all about Gonzo and you know who else had had? Okay? The guy from The Good Wife and Dead Poets Society that oh makes me bite my fist because he's still fucking handsome.

Are you talking about Robert Sean Leonard?

Jennifer Prokop 2:16 / #
No I'm not. I'm not about fuck that guy. I'm talking about the other guy. You know the one who was on the Good Wife?

Sarah MacLean 2:21 / #
Ethan Hawke.

Jennifer Prokop 2:22 / #
No. I'm talking about that the other guy. God.

Sarah MacLean 2:25 / #
How many other guys are there in Dead Poets Society?

Shut up. The best guy. The one...

Which one?

Jennifer Prokop 2:32 / #
The one who makes out in on The Good Wife, the one who makes out with her in the elevator?

Sarah MacLean 2:37 / #
You keep saying The Good Wife. It's not gonna make me have seen it.

Jennifer Prokop 2:40 / #
Ah, hold on. I'm like, "Google's my friend."

Sarah MacLean 2:46 / #
You guys, welcome to my life.

Jennifer Prokop 2:48 / #
No, stop it. I'm an amazing person. Just because I can't remember people's names.

Sarah MacLean 2:53 / #
Dead Poets Society is a seminal text for me. It's so. I'm confused by which guy, which boy you're talking about.

Okay, wait, I'm trying to find out. So Alicia, the one with Will Gardner. Okay, so Will Gardener is the name of the guy in The Good Wife. And ahhh I'm, you know.

Will Gardener is the guy.

Jennifer Prokop 3:16 / #
Max Overstreet! He's the guy plays Max Overstreet!

Sarah MacLean 3:19 / #
Wait a second. He's not good. He's a bad guy on ah, in a lot of things.

Jennifer Prokop 3:25 / #
Okay, but in this Muppet Movie with Gonzo he also is fine. I'm just telling you.

Sarah MacLean 3:29 / #
Well, he's fine everywhere.

Yeah, well, God, yes. Oh my God. There's a scene with him kissing Alicia Florrick in the fucking elevator.

Oh. Max Overstreet. You're right. And then.

Jennifer Prokop 3:39 / #
Max Overstreet!

Sarah MacLean 3:41 / #
He's the one that goes on the date and Dead Poets Society. And then what does he do? He brings, it's Josh Charles. Josh Charles night. It's from Sports Night.

Jennifer Prokop 3:51 / #
You know, I'm starting to realize that you and I not remembering names and titles is way deeper. There's a lot of layers to it.

Sarah MacLean 3:59 / #
I know. You guys so I know my faves are problematic but I have an obsession with Aaron Sorkin and the things that he writes and Sports Night is magnificent. And you have to appreciate that me saying that Sports Night is magnificent is it must be super magnificent because I know nothing about any thing involving balls. I mean blow up balls. Although. Wait. I mean, throw ball, kick ball.

Jennifer Prokop 4:04 / #
Sportsballs, Sarah.

Sarah MacLean 4:11 / #
Sportsballs. Although I will say that I was at a signing not long ago and a woman came up to me, a reader came up to me, and if you listen reader, please tell us who you are. Please say hi on Twitter or Facebook or somewhere. Um, she came up to me and she said, "Do you know the difference between you and Tessa Dare?" And I was like, "Well, I mean, we're not the same person. So I know a lot of things that are different about me and Tessa Dare." And she said, Tessa Dare writes about balls and you don't.

And I was like, "Oh," and I realized I really don't. I generally don't involve myself with testicles. Apparently Tessa does everyone. So you know if you've never read Tessa Dare and you're into balls she's for you.

Talk about a close fuckin read. I mean damn girl.

But I did come home and I put balls into that book. Cause I was like, "Well, I refuse to be bested."

Well, Sarah, I'll just circle back around to I'm real embarrassed to tell you the name of this fucking movie that you should watch with your daughter is called Muppets from Space. I's not even complicated. How the fuck could I not think of that? Muppets from Space. Jesus Christ.

Amazing. And is it Pigs in Space, but like a whole movie?

It's like a whole movie, Miss Piggy's for sure in it.

It's like the Wayne's World of the Muppet universe?

Jennifer Prokop 6:00 / #
They're trying to figure out where Gonzo's from, if I remember correctly, but it's really fucking cute. It's one of my favorites. It's really, really cute. So I would recommend it. I feel now, it almost feels dirty to somehow segue to romance from there, but you know, whatever.

Sarah MacLean 6:18 / #
Whatever. Romance and space and here's the interesting thing. It's real dirty in space. I feel romance off planet. It's like suddenly everybody's allowed to write whatever the hell they want.

Jennifer Prokop 6:33 / #
We've talked about this with, with paranormal, right, when you remove people from human society on Earth, you get to break a bunch of different rules. That totally makes sense to me.

Sarah MacLean 6:45 / #
Yeah, it, it actually really does. It's a interesting, because so I when we talked about doing this episode, my instant thought was like, 'Oh, well, we're gonna have to we have to talk about those early ones.' But I don't think there were that many super early romances, but they, there was a Jane Ann Krentz called "Sweet Starfire". The cover's pretty great. The heroine has the most perfect, they're basically just metallic boobs underneath there. They're weaponry.

They're they're very. It's not even perky. It's -- they defy gravity.

There very firm. They are incredibly firm breasts. Um. It's basic...so okay, so the heroine has telepathy, she's telepathic and um she is, well or no, I'm sorry she's not telepathic but she's from this world of people who are telepathic and she doesn't have it. There's some reason why she doesn't have it. And she has to figure it out, and then the hero is basically Han Solo. He's a delivery man in space.

Jennifer Prokop 8:08 / #
My theory, and I will get to this later in the show, is that every good character I love in a space romance is basically Han Solo.

Sarah MacLean 8:17 / #
I mean, it makes sense though, right? Especially, because so I don't know what date. I don't know what date this is, but it had to have been early days. Um, and well, I do know what date the other one is, the other one was written in the, so the other one that sort of is instantly imprinted on my mind is Johanna Lindsay's "Warriors Woman", which is in the Ly-san-ter series, which is spelled Ly dash san dash ter because I don't know dash.

That's how you show that you're an alien culture by having some real weird spelling. Gotta use a bunch of punctuation.

Add in punctuation to make it seem real to me, but I am gonna I know last episode I was like, "We're not gonna read the back cover copy" because it sucks but here's the thing: back cover copy has changed a lot over the years because if I had back cover copy like this, I would make everyone read it all the time. So, here it is. In the year 2139 fearless Tedra De Arr sets out to rescue her beleaguered planet, Kystran from the savage rule of the evil Crad Ce Moerr. Experienced in combat but not in love, the beautiful, untouched Amazon flies with Martha, her wise-cracking, free-thinking computer, to a world where warriors reign supreme--and into the arms of the one man she can never hope to vanquish: the bronzed barbarian Challen Ly-San-Ter. A magnificent creature of raw yet, disciplined desires, the muscle-bound primitive succeeds where no puny Kystran male had before--igniting a raging fire within Tedra that must be extinguished before she can even think of saving her enslaved world.

Jennifer Prokop 10:30 / #
That's a whole lot.

Sarah MacLean 10:31 / #
We're gonna read it y'all.

Jennifer Prokop 10:34 / #
I'm kind of ready to read it right now.

Sarah MacLean 10:36 / #
So it's like this is Conan the Barbarian fanfic. And then there's the you know, and it makes sense. Where Johanna Lindsay was an earthy, you know, Schwarzeneggery kinda lady. Jayne Ann Krentz is more of an intellectual. Uh. You know.

Jennifer Prokop 10:58 / #
Han Solo type of snark guy. We should I swear to God, I always say this but now it's summer so maybe I'm, I'm constantly like, "we should be making BuzzFeed quizzes that go along with this." Like, "Which 70s or 80s space hero Do you imprint on?"

Sarah MacLean 11:20 / #
So anyway, that is where so when I say there were space romance is not new. There were definitely I mean these are huge writers. These are the big names of the 80s writing these space romances 80s and 90s. And so certainly there was there, they appeared here and there, but there are more of them now. And there are more that are sort of well-known and respected and, um, real fucking entertaining, frankly.

Oh, God. Yeah. Well, that's, I think that's, I think what it is too. So here's a little secret about me as a reader, which is. Oh, are you okay?

I was just gonna say um, "Warrior's Woman" is was published in 1990.

Jennifer Prokop 12:11 / #
I am a more of a sci-fi person than a fantasy person. Just in general, right? When I move Back to the Future and movies I loved about space travel and aliens and Star Wars, Star Trek, all of that is way more my jam. And so one of the things about space romances is I um, I feel like there's there's world building but it's less maybe? You know, fantasy. I am not a good enough reader. I'm gonna own that. I'm just like, "Oh shit, who is this guy again?" You know what I mean? I feel somehow fantasy, it requires more of me as a reader in a way that I'm like, "Uhh I'm not good at this." So I do think it's that imprinting thing. When I think about Star Wars, Back to the Future, Star Trek, that whole decade where I was growing up and just I couldn't get enough of it. So part of me is like, "Of course I love these space romances. They're amazing." If Han, I mean all we ever get from Han Solo and Princess Leia is that one fucking kiss or whatever, right? We deserve more. We deserve better. We deserve space threesomes.

Sarah MacLean 13:27 / #
Yeah. laughing We deserve sex planets, so let's just make it so.

Movie Dialogue 13:34 / #
"Make it so. Sir? Do it."

Sarah MacLean 13:40 / #
Um, okay, so we're in. We're in a golden age. I would say.

Jennifer Prokop 13:45 / #
Yes. I love it.

Sarah MacLean 13:46 / #
Of space romance. Well, wait, where should we start? Should we just, should should we start with this series that...

Jennifer Prokop 13:53 / #
Brought us together!

Sarah MacLean 13:55 / #
Oh, well, we should start...laugh everyone thinks that it was IAD but it wasn't I mean Jen and I knew each other through the IAD you know universe,

Jennifer Prokop 14:05 / #
But our real bonding happened...

Sarah MacLean 14:07 / #
Yeah, but our real bonding came over Grace Goodwin

"The Interstellar Bride" series.

I'm so embarrassed by this whole episode.

Jennifer Prokop 14:18 / #
No. I'm not. They're fucking awesome.

Sarah MacLean 14:20 / #
They are.

Jennifer Prokop 14:20 / #
But you know what? I was. I was on a family vacation where there were more people than seats in cars. And so somehow I kept always getting left behind, which I swear didn't mean to happen, but it was get the kids and the grandparents there. And I was like, "Whatever you're going to a kid's movie, it's fine." And I read a ton of these fucking books you guys one after the other. I literally could not get enough of them.

Sarah MacLean 14:44 / #
What's the series name?

"The Interstellar Bride" series.

Yeah. Oh my God. So you guys. Okay, so Jen. Picture this. Let me paint you a picture. So Jen and I are not friends yet. I mean, we're friendly. We like each other on Twitter. We're follow, we follow each other on Twitter. But um, I don't know how it fucking happened. I think it probably happened because "Ice Planet Barbarians". So Sophie Jordan, who is joining us next week for "The Master", is a dear friend of mine and she loves a bananas book just more than anybody in the whole world. And she started reading those "Ice Planet Barbarians" books by Ruby Dixon. And we found ourselves down the rabbit hole, the two of us, and it was you know, we I looked up a week later and I've read like 17 of those blue alien books. It's, the whole week is a blur. And, um, and I would recommend the first, you know, however many you want to read until you're ready, you know, at some point, you'll just overdose on them and then you'll just be like, "Okay, I'm done with these blue alien books."

It's like when you're at a bar and you're drinking. It's the first real night nice of summer and you're drinking maybe some kind of frozen cocktail. They're going down real easy. And then all of a sudden you're like, "Whoa, I just did. Wait, I just overdid it."

Exactly. I imagine it's what, I've never done cocaine, but I imagine it's like coke. You're like, "This is great!" And then you're like, "Whoa, I need a nap."

Yeah, that was it. So we had to shift from that to another similar series, right?

Then we started, so then it was just one of those things where, anytime anybody asked, "What's the craziest thing you've read recently?" We'd be like, "Well, have you read Ice Planet Barbarians?" Because it's weird. I mean, a spaceship crashes. A woman out in this ice planet. She comes she stumbles upon a giant blue alien and he immediately goes down on her. And it's crazy. So whatever. Periodically the "Ice Planet Barbarians" comes up online, and like we talk about how crazy it is. Then Jen, DMs me, I think, "Have you read these Grace Goodwin books?" And I was like, "Well no, but obviously I'm in the mood for another drug." So the structure of these books are, first of all, these are not in KU. "Ice Planet Barbarians" are in KU so you sort of feel like it's free. Grace Goodwin has put her books not. You are paying $3.99 for each one of these books. And I mean, I'm not gonna lie. I gave that money to her for a long time. These are probably not in your library either, you guys. So the first chapter you're like, "Hello. Here's the heroine having sex with two men, or whatever it is."

Jennifer Prokop 17:48 / #
But they're aliens, right?

Sarah MacLean 17:50 / #
There's 4000 books in this series. And the first one, all you know is that she's having sex. She's in the middle of sex with this person and you're like, "This feels like a very jarring entry into a book. But okay, Jen recommended it." So. And then she wakes up and you realize that she has been in a machine. In a sort of, uh,

Jennifer Prokop 17:50 / #
An MRI sex machine.

Sarah MacLean 18:14 / #
An MRI sex machine.

Jennifer Prokop 18:18 / #
Sarah, that's what it is. Hello. Instead of it being a big doughnut, it's like a big vagina.

Sarah MacLean 18:28 / #
And then she wakes up and there's a doctor and the doctor's like, "Oh, hey, you've been matched" to an interstellar, a male of a species on another planet and you are a human. You're basically a fertile human, female, and you're basically going to be shipped off to this dude, wherever you are.

Well, and it's always this alien.

With sex compatibility.

Yeah, and the deal is that at least for the ones I've read, this interstellar bride program right, the other the alien planet, they have pairs of alien men essentially agreed to mate this woman or that's how it works on their planet because it's so dangerous that that way if one of them dies, the other one will be able to you know,

Protect her.

Jennifer Prokop 19:29 / #
Protect her and still be there for her. Now none of them ever die. So it's just these, polyamorous, super sexy threesomes.

Sarah MacLean 19:37 / #
But I will say, male female male.

Jennifer Prokop 19:40 / #
Oh always.

Sarah MacLean 19:40 / #
There's no crossing of the swords. Which is a big bummer for me.

Yeah, I think that's why you and I both are like, "Meh." Here's my other thing, is the the woman on earth who's part of the intake process. Her name is Warden A Gara. And as time went on, in these books, it became clear that she had some sort of backstory herself. And I was like, "It's like a year later, has she ever gotten her own book?" And I do not think so. But I bet we cannot be the only people who are like, "Warden A Gara, where is your book?"

Why doesn't she get herself in the machine?

Jennifer Prokop 20:16 / #
Well, I think she had a mate and something went wrong. And so now she's back in the pool and you know, not ready.

Sarah MacLean 20:23 / #
Sure, sure. So, take your time A Gara. Um, but here's what's really interesting because this is it. These really echo. So I'm really fascinated by the space books because I think they're doing some sort of interesting work, as part of the genre. I mean, this is welcome to Fated Mates everyone. We're gonna talk about, we're gonna try and figure out, why these

Jennifer Prokop 20:49 / #
What it's doing, right?

Sarah MacLean 20:50 / #
What, at first glance, feel like real one-handed reads, if you know what I mean, but I think doing some interesting work and what these books are doing is very similar to what medievals were doing in that they're telling a story about each one of these meetings in these Grace Goodwin books is intergalactic because intermarriage between the two cultures solidifies the relationship between the two planets. It's like your Norman female is sold to a Saxon warrior. Or vice vice versa. I don't remember my history. So I think whatever goes. So that's interesting, there's something going on there. But also then there's this very real sense of woman alone, in a world in a threatening world.

Jennifer Prokop 21:44 / #
Yeah, sure.

Sarah MacLean 21:45 / #
And there's something really compelling about that. In 2019 for me, I've been talking a lot about, you and I haven't talked in a ton about how it feels like now, in 2019, you have to options and romance you have the super soft, really gentle calm love story. Or you have like, space prison planet book. And we're gonna get to. The two. I feel like they're scratching the same itch, socially. Because I'm right now not really that interested in a soft book because I want to see threat. I want to see anger. I want to see women and people in marginalized communities triumphing over, you know, the worst. But I think a lot of people are like, "The world is horrible. And I just want to escape into my like, soft cinnamon roll of a book."

And I think that they're two sides of the same coin, which is how when, we think about like, "What does romance?" How does romance approach the patriarchy?" And I think one of the things we've talked a lot about is, we're excited about the way that it you know, I was reading really interesting thread this morning that was when we talk about romance being by women for women, that it that's that used to be true, but now it's also really trying, I think, at least the books I'm interested in trying to be a place for anyone who's on the downside of the gender spectrum, right? Anyone who's not a cis het male. And so therefore, opening up for non binary for queer people, right? And so I think that these books are really pushing against sometimes too gender dynamics, because one of the big differences I think of in these books is that women aren't always just receptacles or receivers. Sometimes they're fighting back. Sometimes they're the heroine. Sometimes they're saving their mate. Sometimes. I feel like there's a lot of ways in which it's, you put, you put people in space and then sometimes their roles. Whether they be gender roles or work related roles or marriage roles. Kind of, "get a chance to change because now you're in a different society." So I do think that that's, that's what it is too. So it's exploring like, "Who are we in relationship to this institution?" Maybe? Whether it be the prison planet, the meeting, the inter bride program, whatever.

Yeah, I agree. I think there's something really interesting to be said for, for just how these books are. It's weird because almost all of them sort of really solidify in some ways underscore that kind of physical difference between the sort of women as the weaker sex

Hmm, yeah right? Well, cause the aliens are always seven feet tall. It's like a monster dash, right?

Even in, so let's talk about let's talk about Emmy Chandler next. So, if you follow me on Twitter you know that I, about three weeks ago went through this massive Emmy Chandler phase. I was on retreat with a bunch of other authors, somebody recommended, we were talking about, I was with Sophie Jordan, Sophie loves a prison book, we're talking about these prison planet books. And now I can't remember the name of that series either. Anyway, and I had never read them. So I picked up the first of the Emmy Chandler prison planet books. The first one is called Guardian. Oh, it's just called Prison Planet, the series. And so the concept is people get shipped off from planet from, again, it's kind of a star trekky kind of futuristic society where there are many different planet many different planetary planets that are in part of some sort of planetary consortium. And if you commit a crime, you are sent to this prison planet where

Jennifer Prokop 26:22 / #
It's Australia.

Sarah MacLean 26:24 / #
Yeah, where there are sectors and each sector has a different kind of criminal in it. And women and men are sent to all the sectors and it's a very intense. Content warning on this. There's a lot of threat of sexual violence in this book. Because obviously, when you are in a position where women and men are imprisoned in a enclosed space, no matter how big the enclosed space like that sexual dynamic is that that dynamic of sex is going to be there between them. And it's overarching. There is a constant threat of sexual violence in these books. But what Emmy Chandler is doing here in that...so the first one is called Guardian and basically a woman is sent to this to this prison planet and then she discovers, she gets to choose her mate, like meat, she gets to choose the man who she is with for 30 days. And then his job is to protect and feed and clothe her and her job is, you know, to pleasure him and he of course, is very noble and heroic. And it all works out sort of fine at the end, although I want to talk about what fine means in the context of some of these books. The second one Hunter is my favorite of them.

Me too. And it's the most dangerous game basically, right?

Yeah. Yeah. So very rich people get to pay money to come down onto the prison planet and hunt killers basically in an enclosed space. So it's like Hunger Games, there's an enclosed space with lots of cameras and things that are monitoring you. In that one, the heroine gets herself put into this enclosed space too. So the hero and heroine are both being hunted by the same man. And the heroine is a technological genius. He is just physical, pure brute physical strength. She is mental. She's just a genius. And so to get so she saves the day in that book with her intellect,

Jennifer Prokop 28:50 / #
Right, and he keeps them safe when they're out in the woods essentially, right? I mean, so it's together they're this unbeatable team. Even against all of the ways in which they're ... the other hunter has weapons has technology as cameras can find them. There's these really terrifying metal dogs that essentially are just if they run into you, they're just gonna rip you to shreds. I mean, it's a classic, like "The Most Dangerous Game" is a classic, short story about a general who essentially creates his own island, right? And he's gonna hunt, the people who get shipwrecked on the island, and he sets up essentially a trap to shipwreck them. And have you read this?

Sarah MacLean 29:38 / #
No. But I mean I know the premise.

Jennifer Prokop 29:40 / #
You know, the trope, right? And it has to be an island the same way this has to be a prison planet, right? You have to be isolated. And even if you can defeat the hunter, how are you going to escape is always the meta question that's kinda underneath, right? There's no real escape from any of it even if you can beat this one, this one guy.

Sarah MacLean 30:04 / #
No. And so the third one, "Champion," is lady gladiator. She gets to choose her, she's sentenced to death, and she gets to choose the way she dies and she chooses fighting as a gladiator on the prison planet for TV. And the only woman who's ever done it. That's real Hunger Games-y. She gets a makeover and she has sponsors. If you loved the Hunger Games, and you wish there had been sex in it, and you are not scared and you are not triggered by sexual violence in any way. Nobody in these books actually, gets raped. But it's ... It's a threat constantly.

Jennifer Prokop 30:51 / #
Or it's happened in the past, right? I mean, in the second one, she's essentially been or no is it?

Sarah MacLean 30:57 / #
I think she kills him before. I mean, you should not, if that is triggering for you at all, you should not read these books. But that third one, "Champion," and you can read these standalone. You do not need to read them in order. But "Champion" is, if somebody said to me like, "I want Hunger Games, but a romance." It's "Champion." Um, anyway, and then they go on from there. But there's something really interesting about these books, especially now in that happily ever after in these books, can't really be happy.

Jennifer Prokop 31:35 / #
Cause the world is not righted.

Sarah MacLean 31:37 / #
They're still on a prison planet. Right? So it's a really odd. There's something very satisfying. They were incredibly satisfying for me as I was reading them. But I really I keep going back to why is because we talk all the time -- one of the big questions that -- I'm sorry, I know I'm talking a lot...One of the big questions we have a lot is it In historical, specifically, is, "Why don't people write poor characters in historical romances?" I mean, in contemporary is too. And the answer has always been well, because it's not, if you're poor, is it happily ever after? If you're more literally worried about where your next meal is coming from. Is it happily ever after? And these people are alone on a prison planet.

Here's what I think it's really about. I think this is the work right? We talk a lot about partnership, right? That's what a romance sort of delivers at the end is, these two individuals have become like a team, right? And now they're going to face whatever struggles to happen together. And I think that's why it ultimately works because even though they're still danger in their future, and we know that. We also know that they have come through something where we trust that whatever their future, right, whatever this future conflict is going to be for them, that they are going to tackle it together. And there's something really appealing about that. Right? And I don't necessarily, by the way, think that that's just a romance thing. I think that's a friendship thing. I think a lot of these books have, build communities of people together, right? I think going back to Ice Planet Barbarians, they all start to work together. And it's literally watching a new society form. Only it's one often where gender differences are irrelevant, or there's more equality. You know, people are essentially literally making a new world for themselves. So I think that's why that's really appealing.

Mm hmm. I agree. And it feels like if they could triumph over these really dark moments. If you can be a lady gladiator and survive, then what can't you do?

Jennifer Prokop 34:12 / #
You got this right? Well, and often I will also point out that almost always those external conflicts are human in nature. Right? So it's you got kidnapped and sent to the ice planet barbarians. These men who set up the the gladiator dome and you're in it or whatever. So they're beating humanity, and then forming something new on this new planet. I mean, I think really profoundly. It's this idea that we're starting over. We're going to do this better. We're not going to end up in 2019. We started there, but we don't have to end up there.

Sarah MacLean 34:53 / #
Yeah, well, what's interesting is that they're not all this kind of gendered? Funkiness and, and that's where I want to go next because I want to go to Robin Lovett's books. Um, Robin Lovett is writing a series called Planet of Desire. The first one is called "Toxic Desire." Fun fact. Johanna Lindsey. No, Johanna Lindsey, wrong. Fun fact, Sophie Jordan and Joanna Shupe both texted me about "Toxic Desire" within 18 hours of each other. I don't think you all have heard Joanna talk about bananas books. You will hear Sophie next week to talk about "The Master." But when they both recommend a book, I know it's gonna be special. So Planet of Desire is Robin Lovett series, where, again, it's futuristic, there's kind of an intergalactic Space Consortium, there's a big bad planet or bad guys.

Jennifer Prokop 36:05 / #
It's the 10 planets Consortium, I think or something right?

Sarah MacLean 36:09 / #
Yeah. Yeah, it's like the EU of space.

Jennifer Prokop 36:11 / #
And the thing that's really interesting, before you launch into this is, all of the, if you're working on one of the 10 planets ships, they demand that you be essentially gender neutral, but what that really means is that you are essentially disguising yourself if you're a woman to present more as a man. And so what happens is they land on this, this sex planet, and the reason it's a sex planet is because there's something literally in the atmosphere, the Desedre or whatever, I don't how to say it.

Sarah MacLean 36:43 / #
Aphrodisiac. The atmosphere itself is an aphrodisiac.

Jennifer Prokop 36:47 / #
And you can't get away from it right?

Sarah MacLean 36:50 / #
You're gonna die. If you don't have sex, you will die.

Jennifer Prokop 36:53 / #
Yeah, masturbating is not enough. It has to be a mutual thing, right?

Sarah MacLean 36:57 / #
Well, masturbating will help for a little bit. Yeah ultimately, you gotta have sex. And it doesn't matter it's can be there it can be. It can be any form of sex with, it's polyamory, queer, queer sex, whatever kind of sex you want.

Jennifer Prokop 37:15 / #
It does not have to be P in V.

Sarah MacLean 37:17 / #
It's about the emotional connection between the two, three, four, however many people.

Then what happens is, people there are as I mean, in the first one, there's an enemy. So the the alien kind of male of the species who's there hates the 10 planets people.

Enemies to lovers. Yeah. Cuz he was on. He was a prisoner on the ship or something? Anyway, he has gold skin. And, and when they when he when anybody has sex with this, this type of creature I mean, not creature but this type of being in the world. Yeah, they then turn gold.

Jennifer Prokop 38:06 / #
I know, it's amazing!

Sarah MacLean 38:06 / #
It's so crazy.

That sex is gonna make you golden.

But that's a really good one because he was this is again, it's a classic old school romance trope. "I was imprisoned by your people. I hate you by virtue of you being those people."

Jennifer Prokop 38:24 / #
And yet here we are together.

Sarah MacLean 38:26 / #
Here we are. We're forced. We are forced together and it's on. It's not only forced proximity, it's for sexual proximity, because if we don't do it, we're gonna die.

Jennifer Prokop 38:37 / #
And this is a whole series then plays around with a bunch of other things. And the second one, there's essentially a sex Olympics, of course.

Sarah MacLean 38:44 / #
Yeah. Well, that also again, we're back to if you like the Hunger Games. Hunger Games read alikes, with Jen and Sarah! Hey scholastic!

Jennifer Prokop 38:59 / #
We're like defiling your intellectual property.

Sarah MacLean 39:03 / #
Um, cuz that second one is sex in an arena. Not gladiators. Fucking.

It's performative. It's in public. It's a voyeuristic. I mean, because then there's...

I really like the whole community though.

Well, the, essentially the people, that alien race that lives on this planet then has developed a certain kind of culture based around this.

The need.

Jennifer Prokop 39:38 / #
I will say this, if you liked the idea of Feveris in Dark Skye. This is this is the series for you. This is your next book after that.

Sarah MacLean 39:50 / #
But I really love it because it's so sex positive. All the people are, "I don't understand. Why are you being so weird about sex?"

Jennifer Prokop 40:00 / #
You know, when we as people on earth travel, I think, at least I would hope most of us have this basic understanding that it's not our place to put our cultural mores on to that new place we're visiting, but to experience, what's going on here? To eat the food of the place, you're going. To try and speak the language, right? We understand that is sort of our responsibility when we choose to travel. But what if when we travel some other world, it really is fundamentally seems wrong with what you've either learned about who you are as a person or your culture. And it's kind of rules and morality. And then it really becomes, again, that conflict level really ramps up because now it's person versus society. And you're like, "Hey, this isn't how I'm supposed to act, but I have to do it in order to survive here." And those kinds of really strong internal conflicts are which are pressure from an external conflict -- that's always a real interesting. I like that. It's real meaty.

Sarah MacLean 41:10 / #
I agree. I mean and I think that's done very well in third book in this series which is just now out is it just out?

Or it, we both just got it from NetGalley let me look.

In the third book in the series, the hero is a person from the homeworld. This is his world. Yes. And because of by virtue of the sex requirement, all the time sex to stay alive on this planet, right? The the characters the people who live on this planet, they don't really believe in love. They don't believe in monogamy. I'm sorry, not love. They don't believe in monogamy. And so the concept of monogamy is incredibly foreign to them, and problematic for them because they're like, "Well, wait a second. Because what if something happens?" Right? Like what if?

You know, your mate has to leave you for a week. You're gonna die. It's just, it's impossible. It's impossible to be monogamous and live on this planet. Right?

Well, and this dude has a special gift.

He's a shaman or something.

Jennifer Prokop 42:20 / #
He's a sex god. He has to share it with the people.

Sarah MacLean 42:24 / #
So yeah. So basically his whole thing is, if you're sick on this planet, he has special energy that he can infuse in you but he has to do it via sex. It's all real bananas. Robin. I mean, what is happening in your head? PS: I love you, Robin. I met you a BA and you're amazing.

Jennifer Prokop 42:46 / #
No, but you know, this is one though, where instead of her just acclimating to his rules. She has. She he acclimates to sort of her culture, right? And she has this real concern about, "It's complicated," of course. But every single one of the conflicts that happens is really about again, "Who am I? Who do I want to be? Should having a sexual relationship with someone make it so that they're my mate for life?" I mean, essentially, it's her drama because of her. You know, she is not even entirely human. She's some other thing too.

Sarah MacLean 43:23 / #
But I think for him, his conflict is really interesting too, because if you're born into a destiny, do you have no other choice? His whole conflict is society versus self. In a very concrete way. "If I take if I do the thing that I want to do for myself, I have to turn my back on this responsibility that I have towards my society." I mean, it's very it is actually very Dark Skye, this kind of in you know if...

Well, Robin is reading Dark Skye right now.

But if Thronos didn't have such a stick up his ass about everything it would be very Dark Skye. So yeah I mean so I've really liked this. I like it for another reason to that I just want to shout out and this is not to say look, most people in romance, are not public about their entire persona. I use a pseudonym. I am Sarah in real life but you know names are all changed and it's funky but a lot of these sex planet books or space books are written under very private pseudonyms. I'm sure partially because they're there is something kind of salacious and scandalous about them at first glance. Robin is very public, she's a public figure. She uses her actual photo and I'm not dissing anybody who doesn't do that, but I just want to give an extra shout out to her for being brave.

She's great. And I think that's what it is, too. I think, fundamentally, you know, I think, sometimes erotic romance gets this really hard rap. "Meh. It's it's just porn." Obviously, no one listening to us thinks that. We don't think that. But I do think books that really examine our sense of self in conjunction with our sexuality and what that means when they aren't necessarily in alignment the way we want them to. That's, that's worth us digging into as a genre. And I think that when you a lot of the books that we've talked about so far already are really doing that and a variety of really interesting ways. And so, yeah, they deserve some credit for pushing against a, I don't know, a boundary that I think a lot of people don't really, it's harder to explore.

Yeah, I really want us to have, as a genre, I want romance, and I think this is something that places like RWA really need to sort, RWA has a lot to sort out, but someday when we get down the list from the really critical things that impact people's actual real lives in the world, I want us to have a real conversation about erotic romance. And, what it means. Why it's valuable. What the difference is between a sexy book and an erotic book. Why we need those books. Why we need to honor those books as as themselves. And I think a lot of these books are doing that work.

Jennifer Prokop 46:27 / #
Yeah, I think so. True. So I want to talk though, because sci fi / space romances aren't always just sex planet books. That's all true and interesting. But there are a couple other ones that I thought that we could talk about. Because I like science fiction so much, maybe I've read more of them. And there's a couple that have come out, in the past year, that I think are worth just mentioning. And then I want to talk about a couple that I just read that I really liked. So I want to talk about "Polaris Rising" by Jessie, is it, Mihalik? I'm not sure how I'm saying her last name correctly.

Sarah MacLean 47:12 / #
That's how I would say it but we apologize.

Jennifer Prokop 47:14 / #
This is a, now I'm gonna be really honest with you, I think this is the kind of romance light. There is a romantic arc. But I think the big arc is for our heroine, Ada von Hasenberg. And she is essentially and this is my catnip, right? So she is the princess essentially in the in the universe. There's three really powerful houses and house von Hasenberg is one of them. And she's the fifth of six children. And she has all these skills but her real job is going to be to marry somebody for her house. So this is the all the aristocracy stuff, but put in space. And a couple of years earlier she got told she was gonna have to marry somebody. And she was all like, "Fuck all y'all," and she takes off. And so she's on this space adventure and she, at the beginning of the book, has been caught kind of accidentally. She was just in the wrong place at the wrong time and someone picked her up who didn't really even know what they had and all of a sudden figures it out. And she gets put in a cell with a guy named Marcus Lock who is essentially the most wanted criminal in the galaxy.

Sarah MacLean 48:27 / #
And hey, Marcus. I wanna say this. He's known as the Devil of Fornax Zero. Which I mean everyone knows if they're called the devil then you definitely are gonna bone 'em. I mean, that's just gonna happen happen right?

And they pretty quickly figure out that they can use each other to essentially escape the ship and she promises like, "Look, I'll pay you a ton of money. If you get me out of here. If you help me get out of here," because she's crazy rich from this crazy rich family and they go on this massive space adventure. And the reason I say it's romance light is, there's a clear romantic arc but I don't think it's the A plot, right? It's like Princess Leia if she didn't have to be fucking dead weighted with Luke and everybody else, right? She is just on her own adventure and it's fucking great. And I loved it because I love, you know she's got blasters, and implants, and she has to go do all this crazy...

The cover. I know that we always joke about covers not being important and whatever read the book, but this covers badass.

And I'm going to tell you I also just read it does not come out till October 1 so maybe this is bad form, but I just read the sequel which is about Ada's sister Bianca. She has been previously married. She went through the house marriage thing. And part of the reason Ada was so sure she didn't want to do it, she saw what happened to her older sister's. Now Bianca's husband is dead. She's back in the house. And there's a big romance between her and the head of house security.

A bodyguard romance!

Jennifer Prokop 50:16 / #
Hello, exactly. And again, I feel like if you go into these books, thinking there's gonna be a romance but it's going to be kind of secondary to this Space Princess plot. Then you like me will be very happy. And I love them cuz they're about competent women.

Sarah MacLean 50:36 / #
I love it. So over the so just to confirm the series is how many books?

Jennifer Prokop 50:42 / #
It's going to be three. The first one is "Polaris Rising." It's out now. And "Aurora Blazing" comes up second.

Sarah MacLean 50:48 / #
And this plot. The meat of the plot is over three by books. It's like Game of Thrones in space.

Jennifer Prokop 50:58 / #
Yep. It sure is. House politics, right? So their house wants something from them. There's all this intrigue between them and the other houses. There's always competition, essentially.

Sarah MacLean 51:12 / #
And each of the books is a standalone romance. It's just the overarching series is the plot.

You know what, I think that people will like that. Because also I do feel like it's more common in science fiction to have the same characters over books, but I like that instead it's like the house. House Van Hasenberg.

Well it flips the script and it makes them more, it actually does make them more romancey. Because, yeah, a romance reader. Well, I mean, Jen, please, if you're recommending these, they have to be complete romances at the end. You're not gonna recommend them if at the end, you're like, "Well, are these two ending up together?"

Jennifer Prokop 51:49 / #
You're gonna get that HEA but what I really liked about it is, I think number two worked for me because they work together more. In "Polaris Rising," there's actually quite a few scenes where they split up and we follow Ada who does her own shit. Saves him a bunch of times. That worked for me too. But, I think if you need them to be on page together all the time, it's not quite the same. But I really like them a lot.

Sarah MacLean 52:20 / #
It sounds like Romancelandia really loves this book. It's on my desk because it's one of my next reads. I mean, it's on my desk with eight other books, but, and I got a puppy this week. I don't know what I'm doing.

Jennifer Prokop 52:30 / #
You're not reading space romances.

Sarah MacLean 52:31 / #
I'm also reading this book. I'm reading this puppy training book that's written by monks. I don't even know who I am.

That's real awkward. Sarah. Real awkward. Are we done?

I think so. No wait. You had a queer space romance.

Jennifer Prokop 52:48 / #
Oh, I do have one I want to shout out it's called "Treason of Truths" by Ada Harper. And it is essentially also a bodyguard romance except, so the queen or the empress, her name Sabine, so of course I was already really into liking her. And then her lover although it's real complicated at the beginning. You can't quite figure it out. Her name is Lyre. L Y R E, is that how you say it? And her job essentially is, she's the spymaster for the empress. But the book opens with her doing some negotiating and you definitely at first like, "Wait is this unrequited love?" Lyre's just super into Sabine but then they get back together and you could tell everybody thinks they're already lovers. It's kind of hidden but there's this great line at the beginning and I was all in where Sabine says something to someone in Lyre thinks, "When she says, 'Thank you,' she can make it sound like, 'Fuck you.'" And I was like, that's my kind of character right there. So that one is one that I I actually have not finished yet. But I've started once I knew we were doing this and I've been really enjoying it but I will admit I'm not there yet. I'm not done yet.

Sarah MacLean 54:08 / #
Oh great. Well I'm glad that we shouted it out. Tell us your favorite space romance because we want to read more of them. I downloaded "Warrior's Woman" like a lunatic earlier so I'm ready. I mean who am I kidding? I'm not reading this monk book. But we are very excited. I'm always jazzed when we can talk about a sub genre of romance that is feels new. Feels fresh. There are just there are only so many wallflower rakes that you know, I mean, I love a wallflower rake. God knows. But

There are no wallflowers in space, Sarah none. And maybe that's why I like it.

I don't think no. This is really fun. It's summer. It's time for space romances. If there were ever a time for space romance. It's summer.

Now, before we go, you wanted to try something new at the end of every episode.

Oh my gosh, I wasn't ready to do it today. But

Do you want me to start?

You start. Yeah. And I've got a thing that I'm yeah, I've got a thing to talk about.

So it's just sharing something fun that we had happened to us or that we did. Is that what it is?

I don't know. No, I'm thinking that it should be a like, "Is there a book that you just recently read that you think is great?" Okay, the recc. Either a book or a movie or show or thing?

Jennifer Prokop 55:38 / #
Oh, okay. So I have been watching Chernobyl on HBO to no one's surprise because everyone knows I know love a nuclear story. But you know, it's been really cool. I know.

Sarah MacLean 55:49 / #
That's so obscure and weird. Oh my god. Have you read Alyssa Cole's mixed signals?

Yeah, but wait, you didn't know that about me. You didn't know

I knew that you, vaguely but I didn't know that it was, you know, a thing you put in your bio. Send me your nuclear romances.

Okay. Actually, there are a few nuclear romances and I have not read them.

Well, that Mixed Signals one, isn't it?

All right. That's Listen, I read nonfiction nuclear books. I've read many, many books about Chernobyl. I know that's real fucking crazy, but I love it. Yeah, so I've read Actually, I'll take a picture. I put it on Twitter. You just don't follow me closely. Enough. I have a whole nuclear shelf anyway,

I have puppy now. I can't I just I can't. I can't Twitter.

Okay, here's what's really cool about if you've watched the show. They also have a podcast that goes along with it. And what's really cool about the podcast is, it's the guy from Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me, which I was on one than once. I was on that once and won. But

You were on what?

Jennifer Prokop 56:55 / #
Wait, I'll tell you that in a minute. Wait, and he's interviewing the writer. And what they do is they kind of go through the episode and talk about what parts are true and where they came from and which parts he essentially wrote in. So it's a really cool way of experiencing the show. Kind of like, if you ever have that question when, you're watching something that's based on real events, you're like, "Which parts real which parts aren't?" The podcast is so fun to listen to, as you watch because that, or after you watch, because then you're like, "Oh, that's a composite character. Oh, that dialogue actually came straight from voices from Chernobyl," so I really recommend the podcast in the show.

Sarah MacLean 57:38 / #
Cool.

You can recommend puppy books, I guess.

Nope. No, I you guys, I so I really love the movies, but I don't go to them enough. And that is the thing that is real. But I went to see Book Smart.

Jennifer Prokop 58:00 / #
Oh, I want to see that!

Sarah MacLean 58:02 / #
My lovely friend Megan Frampton, and Megan and I live five or six blocks from each other and in between our houses - this is what's so great about living in a city - is a movie theater. So we met in the middle and we went to see Book Smart, which is, I said to my husband, "It is the greatest last night of high school movie I've ever seen." Basically if you loved all those high school coming of age movies, this movie is about the very last night of high school. Tomorrow morning is graduation. And the heroine is the valedictorian and her best friend, who is the salutatorian - is that how you say that? Salutatorian. And they are adorable workaholic. Well, the valedictorian is an adorable workaholic nerd. And the salutatorian is mega feminist nerd. And they've done nothing but be each other's friends and study to get into the best possible colleges and to do their amazing things after after high school. And then on the last day of school, she discovers that all the kids who she thinks like, "Well, they've just slacked off and not done anything. And they're all going to, you know, nowhere colleges and she's gonna end up being their boss," turns out, they're all going to Yale and Princeton, Stanford and big colleges, and she realizes in the very beginning of this movie, she's basically missed out on high school because she was so panicked for the rest of her life. So she had that one night to rectify it. It's like a buddy movie. And it has all the beats. There's a little there's a little bit of a romance in it. It has all the beats that you love in these movies. If you love these movies, which I do, and I just highly, highly recommend it. It's written by a woman. Produced, it's got a giant female, lots and lots of women working on it. The crew, and it's written by Olivia Wilde who's, you know, awesome talented. Jason Sudeikis, is in it.

Jennifer Prokop 1:00:30 / #
Hmm, that sounds so good.

Sarah MacLean 1:00:31 / #
So is Lisa Kudrow.

Well, it's summertime it's time for me to get my movie on so I'm here for it.

If you like a high school movie. But you teach high school you well you teach junior high.

I don't. I teach middle school but you know, my son is in high school and I am always telling him, "Just enjoy high school. Stop fucking falling for this crazy idea that your life will only matters."

I want you to watch it with him and then tell me what he thinks.

Jennifer Prokop 1:00:58 / #
I will report back to you.

Sarah MacLean 1:00:59 / #
Yeah, I want to know what real kids - kids on the street - feel. But I really loved it.

Kids on the street are still in bed at 11:30 / # in the morning, fine.

That's a great life.

Jennifer Prokop 1:01:10 / #
It seriously is.

Sarah MacLean 1:01:11 / #
It really is. I would be in bed if I didn't have you know, kids and a dog. And a husband.

Jennifer Prokop 1:01:18 / #
Self-inflicted!

Sarah MacLean 1:01:22 / #
All right, my love's. This was Fated Mates. Don't forget to subscribe, like and subscribe in your favorite podcasting app. Find us on Twitter at Fated Mates. Find us on Instagram at Fated Mates pod. Check out the show notes because Jen is amazing and does beautiful show notes. There will be cover images this year.

Jennifer Prokop 1:01:42 / #
Yeah. Oh yeah. Just a quick reminder everybody that the Moon and Mars are two different places. Have fun in space.

Sarah MacLean 1:02:31 / #
Well masturbating will help for a little bit, but ultimately, you gotta have sex.

Jennifer Prokop 1:02:37 / #
It does not have to be P in V.

Movie Dialogue 1:03:29 / #
Waiter all have with she's having only less pepper

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12.5: Small Town Romance

Small towns! Jen (Chicago) and Sarah (NYC) do not understand them IRL, but we are talking about them in fiction this week! Listen to us talk about their genesis, what they represent, and why Romancelandia can’t get enough of them. Books by Sierra Simone, Vanessa North & Alisha Rai!

Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, please leave us a like or a review. Also — if you have a romance loving friend, please let them know that we don’t just talk about vampires & valkyries, and maybe they’d like us, too?

In fact — In two weeks, we’re not talking about vampires at all! (Except we kind of are) The Game Makers series read-along begins with Kresley’s first contemporary, The Professional. Get ready for Wroth Brother fanfic that Kresley herself refers to as “way sexier” then IAD. Get The Professional at Amazon, B&N, Apple Books, Kobo, or from your local Indie.

Show Notes

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11.5: Sports Romance with Jenny Nordbak

Are you a sports ball fan?! Do we have romances for you! We’ve got the brilliant Jenny Nordbak from The Wicked Wallflowers podcast back for a sports romance interstitial! Listen to us chat about why we love sports books, the alpha, competence porn and books by Kennedy Ryan, Tamsen Parker, and Naima Simone!

Next week, it’s (FOR REAL THIS TIME) MacRieve week with Sierra Simone! We’re so excited, and Sierra is the perfect guest for this sex-driven book! Get MacRieve at Amazon, B&N, Apple Books, Kobo, or from your local Indie.

Show Notes

Welcome back to our guest Jenny Nordbak from the Wicked Wallflowers podcast!

Everyone loves a trip to the hairdresser.

Here's a list of the RITA finalists, and a link to Jen's new twitter account which tracks her reviews of the finalists.

Author Bronwen Fleetwood crunched a bunch of RITA data from the past 20 years, which is how we know there are more winners named Susan (and Elizabeth, Barbara, Karen, Jennifer, Ann, Jill, Linda...) than WoC finalists.

Famously, the Hugo Awards also struggled with recognizing the best books in their field.

Here's what we are talking about when we talk about how PoC are underrepresented in publishing.

Um, actully Sarah, Ulysses is a twitter thread.

This week, Sarah told a pretty solid competence porn story about her neurosurgeon on Twitter.

Kennedy Ryan has been on the Wicked Wallflowers podcast. Twice.

Content warnings for Long Shot.

Adriana Herrera, author and friend of the Pod, recently wrote a very important piece for the Smart Bitches about how to portray sexual assualt in romance.

Why the Ray Rice elevator video is important.

Jen's written about the whiteness of hockey romances for The Book Queen. Don't believe Jen? Back in 2012, commenter #11 left a plea for more hockey romances on this Smart Bitches post. I bet they are happy now.

Susan Elizabeth Phillip's Chicago Stars series is a romance classic.

There's no crying in baseball.

Jen reviewed all of Tamsen Parker's Snow and Ice Games series.

Olympics atheletes are busy, y'all.

6 Degrees of Kevin Bacon was an amusing 90s pop culture game.

Tennyson is a romance heroine and a famous poet.

Listen to Naima's interview on the Wicked Wallflowers.

Fumbled is a new football romance by Alexa Martin, and it deals with CTE.

Get ready for MacRieve.

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10.5: Fake Engagement Romance

This one has to be a top-ten universal trope…were talking fake engagements! Listen to us chat about why ladies love a fantasy, the royal wedding, marriages of convenience, and books by Elle Kennedy, Talia Hibbert, Chelsea M. Cameron and Kate Clayborn!

GIRD THY LOINS, LOTHAIRE IS NEXT!

A jumbo episode with this jumbo jerk face dreamboat! Get Lothaire at Amazon, B&N, Apple Books, Kobo, or from your local Indie…and if you’re an audio lover, you are not going to want to miss Robert Petkoff on this one — Jen hearts it baaad.


Show Notes

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9.5: Food Romance

This week, Adriana Herrera joins us again to talk food romances and Sarah is very excited. Adriana’s debut food romance, American Dreamer, is on shelves now. We talk about the book, the pull of the food romance novel, and why nourishment is sexy. Also, Sarah basically name checks her whole favorites shelf.

Next week, it’s full Torture Island with what is probably the most controversial of the IAD books—Dreams of a Dark Warrior. Declan Chase—torturer extraordinaire is our hero, Regin the Radiant is the woman he’s been trying to love for a millennium, and we’re full bananas in the lead up to Lothaire! Get ready! Get DoaDW at Amazon, B&N, Apple Books, Kobo, or from your local Indie. Don’t forget that the Audible versions of IAD are on sale right now -- and WORTH EVERY PENNY! Listen on Audio!

Show Notes

Welcome back Adriana, and if you didn't hear her on our Wicked Deeds on a Winter's Night episode, you should check it out.

The concept of love languages comes from 1995 self-help book The Five Love Languages, by Gary Chapman. It's a little soft for us. We prefer this additional list of love languages, from McSweeney's.

Adriana talked about her grandmother bringing a pot of Sancocho from the DR to family in New York, and here's a twitter thread where Adriana makes a pot with a friend.

American Dreamer came out at the beginning of the month, and the sequel American Fairytale comes out in April. Find American Dreamer at Amazon, B&N, Apple Books or Kobo.

The dull thuds you're hearing in this episode are Sarah's phone falling off her desk. She is convinced her phone is defective because it falls off flat surfaces every day. She has fantasies of finding Jony Ive's phone number and texting him lists of everything it falls off every day.

Next time you're in Brooklyn, you should visit the Smorgasburg.

Find a Michelin star restaurant to try if you're so inclined.

Just kidding about the Soylent Green thing. Really.

Jen interviewed Mia Hopkins last year when Thirsty came out.

The song Jude was singing was Latinoamerica by Calle 13. You, too, can find great music on NPR.

A romance has to have an HEA or HFN, but a love story doesn't. Don't at us.

An interesting think piece from The Common Reader about how we view competence in men and women.

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8.5: Gateways to Romance

You’re new to romance, where should you begin?! This week, Jen and Sarah are talking about good gateway romances, and we’ve got four that we think work for readers who’ve never dipped a toe, but are open to things from dukes to magic, the America West to kinky London and everything in between.

Next week, it’s Jen’s favorite IAD book, Demon from the Dark! Malkom Slaine is a demon living alone on another plane…until witch Carrow Graie comes to fetch him. Get DFTD at Amazon, B&N, Apple Books, Kobo, or from your local Indie. Don’t forget that the Audible versions of IAD are on sale right now -- and WORTH EVERY PENNY! Listen on Audio!

Show Notes

Next week, it's Demon from the Dark since we already talked about Pleasure of a Dark Prince!

Derek Craven is our favorite and since it's our podcast, we don't have to listen to anyone talk about St. Vincent.

A librarian who excels at reader's advisory is a wonderful thing to have in your life.

Check out Jen's website for targeted romance recommendations.

John Warner is the biblioracle, and he's an amazing advocate for educators and the teaching of writing. He's also one of the key players in The Morning News Tournament of Books, which is literary blood sport par excellence.

An explainer about American-style universtiy course numbering. Jaime Green is the New York Times romance reviewer and we love her.

One of the most hilarious twitter accounts is all about the smells of romance.

The Georgette Heyer chronotope and its limits explained.

If you are interested in knowing the "beat for beat" way a romance is built, you should check out this book by Gwen Hayes.

The ton, the modiste, and Bond Street.

Everyone loves a read-alike, but the problem is finding them.

The Governess and rake tropes are beloved by romance readers, and Tessa Dare's The Governess Game is an excellent example of the trope in action.

Lol, you can't fool Jen. She is absolutely not googling "sex swing."

Hillary Clinton said some things about romance novels, and Romancelandia wasn't having it.

NPR's Codeswitch wrote about Passing in America.

Sarah isn't the only one who learned about history from romance novels.

Jen described her angst vs. stakes theory in this post.

Alexander Chee is a delight, but Jen hated A Little Life more than any other book she's ever read, so just enjoy this Nicole Cliffe thread where a million people dunk on it.

The Sex House for sale in PA was the best 2019 story. Don't believe us? Read this interview with the realtor.

Epistolary novels are interesting; but Jen, Melinda, and Kat talked in this review about Thrall by Roan Parrish & Avon Gale and whether or not epistolary novels work in the age of the internet. (Edited by Sarah to add: Epistolary novels are the tits and anyone who says otherwise is F- wrong.)

The bass line in question.

Jen and Sarah really hate cliffhangers.

Andrew and Illona Gordon are a husband and wife writing team and Jen would probably read anything they wrote (as long as there were no cliffhangers.)

Tom Hardy as Mad Max and fancast as Derek Craven, Mad Rogan, Rune, etc.

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7.5: Scotland Historical Romances

It’s Scotland week, Lads and Lassies! We’re talking about the great green jewel to the north of England, where the ladies are bold and the lairds are brawn, and we're all just wishing we could get wrapped in a plaid and cuddled through a cold Highland night.

Next week, we’re back with the Lykae with Pleasure of a Dark Prince—starring the FULLY DREAMY Garreth MacRieve and Lucia the Huntress, who just might be our favorite heroine yet. We’ll be talking wolf holograms, how Kresley is blowing the doors off the IAD world, and we’ll be starting Lothaire Watch!

Get ready for the PoaDP read along at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books or your local indie. Also, the Audible versions of IAD are on sale right now -- and WORTH EVERY PENNY! Listen on Audio!

Show Notes

Here's the twitter thread where Lillie talked about imprinting on Julie Garwood.

The Heaving Bosoms podcast is pretty great, and although this episode about Mastered by Her Mates by Grace Goodwin is not set during Highlander Times, it's profoundly hilarious.

Some brief explainers about why old paperbacks have dyed edges, but according to Sarah's research, the more popular an author, the more likely it was the pages would be dyed.

All about kilts. Also, it's never too late for a calendar of men it kilts.

Dirks and broadswords, oh my!

Goodreads has a few lists of Broken marriage romances, but Jen recommends Cherish Me by Farrah Rochan.

Here's a google folder with screenshots of the entries for cunt, cunny, pussy, quim, shit, and fuck from the Oxford English Dictionary. Jen mentioned a book called Cunt: A Declaration of Independence, but it's kind of Terf-y, so she does not recommend it.

Sarah does talk about the etymology of swear words a lot on Twitter, becuase fuck just isn't a new word. Don't @ us.

If you want to learn more about the etymology of swear words, Melissa Mohr's Holy Shit: A Brief History of Swearing is the book for you.

A thread about vaginas by friend of the pod S.S. Jaxon.

You definitely want to see the flying fuck image and read Jen's column called Who Did it Better on a Horse.

Lyrics to a song from 1657 that uses some very choice dirty words. Maybe you prefer to listen?

The Hangover is a 2009 comedy, so who knows if it's held up over time.

Sarah, Sophie Jordan, and a bunch of other amazing authors will be at Avon's KissCon in early April. Jen will be there as an attendee, and we'll definitely have some sort of Fated Mates meet-up!

Jen said she texted Sophie, but that's not true. She tweeted at her.

Katy Budget Books has a super-amazing romance section and if you want to order signed copies of Sophie Jordan's upcoming book, you should contact them.

Next week, we return to IAD with Garreth and Lucia in Pleasure of a Dark Prince.

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6.5: Freewheeling with Joanna Shupe: Enemies to Lovers Romance

This week, we’re having a fun, far-reaching conversation with the wonderful Joanna Shupe—who loves Kiss of a Demon King a whole lot, immediately saw the echoes of one of the most famous old school romances inside it, and came to talk to us about enemies to lovers romances, but ended up telling us all about that time she spent a lot of time researching penetrative sex in carriages. We had a great time, and hope you do, too!

Our next read-along episode will tackle the final two Wroth brothers with the two IAD novellas, The Warlord Wants Forever (Nikolai) & Untouchable (Murdoch), available in the Deep Kiss of Winter anthology! This will be the last time we tackle vampires until Lothaire, so get your fill!

A Note: There are two version of The Warlord Wants Forever — you want the most recent version.

Show Notes

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5.5: Road Trip Romances

We’ve got Doritos, a stack of Cosmo sex quizzes and an epic mixtape ready to go — Sarah and Jen are talking about road trips and the inevitable smooching that comes with them in romance!

Next week, we’re back to the Rage Demonarchy Duology with Kiss of A Demon King — where we get the full wrap up of the plot of the second in the duology, and the wrap up of the plot of Dark Desires After Dusk. We’ve seen Rydstrom total his McLaren and get abducted by Sabine, who is not only Queen of Illusions but also his Fated Mate and he’s not feeling great about this at all (Spoiler: We feel very great about this.) We’ll be joined by the fabulous Jenny Nordbak from The Wicked Wallflowers podcast for part of the conversation, and it will be a longer episode than usual because of that!

Get ready for the KoaDK read along at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books or your local indie. Also, the Audible versions of IAD are on sale right now -- and WORTH EVERY PENNY! Listen on Audio!

Show Notes

Texas is very big, everyone.

Here's some interesting facts about Starbucks.

Jen had no idea how posting horses worked until Elisabeth Lane asked on Twitter. (Sarah knew.)

Looking for books with carriage sex? Twitter has recs for you.

Learn more about the Gilded Age in America.

New York's Grand Central Station is absolutely magical.

Hildene, a museum of Lincoln's family home, has a full-scale reproduction of an amazing private rail car...It's amazing how someone on Twitter will always know the good things.

All about bustles.

Trading Places is a 1983 comedy with Eddie Murphy and Dan Ackroyd, and the blog Obscure Train Movies has an extensive break down of the train scenes from the movie.

The Ani Difranco poem Sarah mentioned is called Self-Evident.

Buy yourself a set of butterfly swords for $500. JK. That's probably a really bad idea.

Here's an overview of the Tang Dynasty, and its capital Chang'an.

If you haven't seen Mad Max Fury Road you should probably drop everything and take care of it.

In case you were wondering what the world looked like in 750, Time Maps has you covered.

Here's a list of rich heroines/poor heroes from goodreads.

A quick summary of Pygmalion, and if you happen to be in New York City, you can go see My Fair Lady at Lincoln Center.

Sarah talks about Tom Hardy a lot on Twitter. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Apparently, it is Low and High Fantasy, and Reddit talked about the differences between them.

There's a Slurpee twitter account, which shouldn't really surprise anyone if you think about it.

Whoops, it's my Mom.

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4.5: Curvy Heroines in Romance

Happy New Year, Fated Matesers (This isn’t a great name for us. We need a better name—someone name us)! We’re back, it’s 2019, new year, new us, and we’re starting as we mean to go on with Curvy Heroines, because, in the words of Julie Murphy, Every Body is a Swimsuit Body. Jen and I love a curvy heroine, and the men who love them, and so curvy romances are OUR FAVES.

Next week, we’re getting into Demons! We’ve met Cade, the prince of Rothkalina (the Rage Demonarchy) and his brother Rydstrom, its deposed King, before — they were in the Talisman’s Hie, and in Néomi & Conrad’s book. Next week, we tackle Cade & Holly’s story, Dark Desires After Dusk, with Rydstrom & Sabine’s book Kiss of a Demon King two weeks later. We highly recommend reading these two close together!

UPDATE 1/20/21 - We did it again! Don’t miss a brand new set of recommendations in S03.23 - Curvy Heroines Redux!

Transcript available

Show Notes

- In the summer of 2018, Jen and a bunch of people on Twitter discussed Nine Rules to Break While Romancing a Rake using the hashtag #9RulesRake.

- Sarah also has a curvy heroine romance that is coming in July! Brazen & the Beast has a gorgeous curvy heroine on the cover.

- Just a reminder that Jenny Crusie is completely awesome, and Bet Me is an amazing book.

- Courtney Milan has lots to say about romance. All of her books are amazing, but we talked about The Heiress Effect.

- Never Sweeter by Charlotte Stein was awareded the platinum medal in Jen's "Who Did It Better in the Library" post.

- Romancelandia often recommends books with curvy and fat heroines, and there are quite a few thoughtful pieces about how we think aobut these characters our ourselves.

- Naima Simone writes very excellent books and Jen & Sarah want this one right now.

- Olivia Dade is an advocate for fat women in romance, and Jen and Sarah both loved this thread and want to read books about all these heroines.

- Check out the full transcript for this episode.

TRANSCRIPT

Sarah MacLean 0:00
Okay, okay. Hi. You're listening to Fated Mates. This is Curvy Heroines Week.

Jen Prokop 0:07
I'm Jen Prokop, otherwise known as @JenReadsRomance and my fearless companion...

Sarah MacLean 0:13
Sarah MacLean. I like to write books, and I like to read books about curvy heroines. I like to write books about curvy heroines, too. I'm writing one right now, actually.

Jen Prokop 0:23
You've written many a great book about curvy heroines. And if you haven't read Nine Rules to Break When Romancing a Rake, you can start there.

Sarah MacLean 0:32
That's really nice.

Jen Prokop 0:34
I have, you know, I'll put in the show notes. The picture I gave it to my friend Elizabeth to read and she put it back on my desk at work, with a post-it note on it and it just said, "delicious".

Sarah MacLean 0:46
Oh, that's so, thank you, Elizabeth. That's very kind. But we're not talking about my book this week. That's all. That's the Sarah part of the show.

Jen Prokop 0:55
Yes.

Sarah MacLean 0:56
Jen. Why do we like curvy heroines so much?

Jen Prokop 1:01
Cuz I am a curvy heroine.

Sarah MacLean 1:03
Yeah, me too.

But besides just wanting to see yourself on the page, which is a valid reason.

Jen Prokop 1:09
Okay, so here's what it is for me, it's always back to who deserves and HEA, and I think there are so many ways in which our media celebrates beautiful women. And I like to see that all women are beautiful. All women deserve love. And that's it. I say that to people, I say this to my students all the time. You're going to fall in love one day and the person you fall in love with is going to be beautiful to you. And I think that books with curvy heroines, I don't know they just really hit that mark for me and we talked about your book but the other book that did it first and did it best for me was Bet Me.

Sarah MacLean 1:47
Jenny Crusie.

Jen Prokop 1:49
When I read that book the first time I just thought, I don't know, it just really it felt revelatory, and so talking about books with curvy heroines i think is near and dear to our heart. So you tell me why you think it's important.

Sarah MacLean 2:03
Well, I think you just sort of hit the nail on the head. I actually think that the best thing about curvy heroine romances is that they tend to hold a mirror up to all women and maybe just humans in general, but this sort of sense that even at our most flawed, even when we sort of look at ourselves and say, and see, we see all the parts of us that are wonky, somebody who loves us, just sees the most perfect person and the most beautiful parts of us. And that is a joy to read. And it's a joy to experience in life when you're with your friends or your loved ones. And that's why I love, that's why I love these books, but actually you bring up the Jenny Crusie's Bet Me makes me think like is it possible Bet Me was the first one because prior to Jenny, I mean, in the early days of romance, heroines were perfect. Like really, really perfect. Like every book had a knight hero who could span the heroines waist with his hands,

Jen Prokop 3:05
Right. His manly hand.

Sarah MacLean 3:07
I think I think Jenny might have been the first one. I'm going to do some research and figure that out. And we'll put it in show notes if we find something earlier than that, but could be.

Jen Prokop 3:16
Yeah, and maybe, maybe that's why but I mean, I read that book and remember thinking it changed me like something fundamentally changed in me when I read that.

Sarah MacLean 3:24
Well, do you think it was just that suddenly like romance heroines could be something else, could be more, different, better...

It just opened up a door and I think it opened up a door in my own brain too.

Sure. All right, you start.

Jen Prokop 3:36
okay. I'm going to start actually because I really liked what you said about like a curvy heroine, right, we see her through her own eyes, but also through society's eyes. And a book that I think plays with this brilliantly, is called The Heiress Effect by Courtney Milan. It's a historical, it's part of the Brothers Sinister series. And that's book number two, if you could read it as a stand-alone and I think this book is amazing. I don't know if you've read it, but I loved it.

I think this heroine, her name is Jane, is essentially using the way society views her as a weapon to fool society itself. I don't know that I've ever read anything like it. And so it is profoundly feminist. There's this really amazing scene at the beginning where she describes them trying to, like make her waist many inches smaller than it is by like using corsets. And I like flinched as I read it, but then she actually wears like really outrageous outlandish clothes and she does it, like she realizes they don't think she's beautiful, that they mock her, and that she's going to use that against them to essentially like escape their notice because she has a huge dowry of 100,000 pounds, and she does not want to get married. And so she is playing this game where she's using their perception of them as a way essentially of making herself, like she's it's like at one point the hero realizes she's essentially acting like a butterfly right like she's beautiful and wearing bright colors and it but it's poisonous. And I just think this book, along with having this amazing curvy heroine, one of the smartest heroines, this amazing hero, the cast of characters, the social justice aspect of it. The hero sister. Her name is her name is free. She's like vote fighting for voting rights and the whole book is just from top to bottom, just a real treat. And so the other thing I liked about it is it Jane is clearly a curvy heroine and a Oliver loves her. It's the kind of woman he likes, but it's not the most important thing about who she is. And we and Oliver come and she herself come to see that about her about her.

Sarah MacLean 5:50
Courtney, if you've never read a book by Courtney, this is a really good place to start actually, Courtney does so many things beautifully, but the thing that always comes back to me with Courtney's books. The heroes are always so incredibly Noble.

Jen Prokop 6:04
Oh, yeah.

Sarah MacLean 6:05
They act with such strong conviction. And they know what's right. Capital r. They will do everything to make sure that they behave in that way. But they move the world they moved the needle toward that.

Jen Prokop 6:20
Oh, it's so good. Well, and I'll tell you what the other thing about this is this is a book that we've talked about, like the setup, right? Like so Courtney like sets up this whole thing where essentially the hero is supposed to take her down, and I sort of thought, Oh, hi know where this is going. I did not know where it was going at all. And it was like their struggle to be the best versions of themselves, both for themselves, and for each other. This book is perfect. I loved it.

Sarah MacLean 6:49
You should read a book by Courtney Milan.

Jen Prokop 6:51
Absolutely. What about you, Sarah?

Sarah MacLean 6:54
I'm going to talk about a different kind of hero. A very, very different kind of hero, who is not, does not move toward an nobility instantly. So I want to talk about Charlotte Stein. I want to talk about Charlotte Stein basically every day.

Jen Prokop 7:11
All day.

Sarah MacLean 7:12
All the time. If you've never read a book by Charlotte, you absolutely need to rectify that

Jen Prokop 7:16
and probably clear an entire day of your schedule because once you start you will not be able to stop

Sarah MacLean 7:23
you will just buy every Charlotte sign book one after another, and it will just you'll lose your day to great delicious joy. Because the best way for me to describe how Charlottewrites a book is It's like watching two people fall in love inside a phone booth while you're in it with them.

Jen Prokop 7:42
Oh my god, that's so perfect.

Sarah MacLean 7:44
And you're just like, it's too much. It's too much to watch and I feel weird about watching it but I can't stop like it's just

Jen Prokop 7:53
right.

Sarah MacLean 7:53
You're just in there. And these two deeply imperfect people Charlotte has never written a perfect character. I think in any of her books.

Jen Prokop 8:01
but she might be a perfect writer

Sarah MacLean 8:02
For sure. I think Charlotte is one of the very best writers writing today. She's such a writer's writer. I feel like every writer I speak to acknowledges we all just wish we could write like Charlotte.

Jen Prokop 8:14
It must be intimidating. I've actually I'm like, I just get to read it and be like, this is amazing. I can't even imagine like imposter syndrome must take over all of you when you read her book.

Sarah MacLean 8:23
Anytime I read a book by Charlotte, I end up thinking to myself, like, well, there goes three weeks of me sitting around feeling bad about myself.

Jen Prokop 8:34
But I want it I don't I mean, anyway, so I can't say enough good things, obviously, about Charlotte. But this book is called Never Sweeter. And you guys,

I know I just like fell over. It's so good.

Sarah MacLean 8:46
All right, I'm gonna I'm gonna do the setup. And you're gonna go Oh, Sarah, I don't know. So the premise is, it's setting College and the heroine who is very curvy in high school was relentlessly bullied by a group of boys to the point where she is run off the road and down a pretty dangerous cliff by these boys who are who are torturing her with bullying, and there's no good reason why she's just like all bully, there's no good reason why. And she's run off the road. And that's the beginning of the book. And then immediately we cut to her in college, and she goes into a class and sitting inside in the class is one of her bullies. And he is there to make amends. She's horrified. She's terrified. She's all the emotions that you would be. She wants away from him. She wants out of this, this entire world. But he is there and he's in college with her and he wants to apologize. He wants to make it right. And they fall in love. And it is

Jen Prokop 10:05
it's amazing.

Sarah MacLean 10:06
So incredible, because the whole time in your head you're thinking, no, absolutely not. This is not acceptable. And the whole time. I mean, Charlotte just writes this hero who just is working so hard to rectify the past. And this heroine who just is so strong because she's so able to tell him "no", and she's still able to resist it until she realizes that maybe there is something more than resistance. And I don't know I think I'm doing a bad job describing it but I think it's

Jen Prokop 10:44
No you're not

Sarah MacLean 10:45
so beautiful.

I read a book a day, right? I mean, I've read 10,000 that's not an exaggeration, romance novels in my lifetime. And I think it is rare that you can come across a book where you just you can't see how the writer is going to finish it. The whole time you're doubting that it's even possible to do it to pull it off and then somehow Charlotte just does and it's beautiful. It's one of the most beautiful romances I think ever written.

Jen Prokop 11:16
I think so too and I think that the curvy heroine part I would say, it's really essential to Lenny's character I think because like when they talk right when they become friends first is that he says I didn't want you going through the world thinking that everyone was going to treat you that way. And I think it's like metaphorically it's some level to like how fat people are treated in the world. Right like we're we're sort of like look away and and I think there's something really beautiful about his love for her is so pure and again, it's like that same thing we talked about when you talked about escort books, right? Everyone deserves love, like your physical package should have nothing to do with like whether or not you are deserving of someone loving you profoundly and deeply and I think this book at every single, every single layer does that so well. That's amazing.

Okay, so my final one is way lighter, a jaunt really but we know we have to come right out of the deep well that Never Sweeter will will put you in and all of Charlotte's books really but I love a book like really love in a way like I don't know every single bell rings on my belt. It's called Playing It Cool by Amy Andrews and it's a part of a whole series all the like playing at whatever books are part of a series about Sydney rugby team, which I know nothing about rugby, but I've really liked all these books and the main character is a guy named Dexter and it actually starts off with him. And all of his like sort of buddies on his rugby team are basically like, hey, there's your kind of girl on the sidelines, because she's like a bigger curvier woman and her...her name is Harper and...

Sarah MacLean 12:58
can I just interrupt and say Love that moment in this book we're like you're not because we have talked a lot about curvy heroines who are feel uncomfortable in their skin and you know, God knows that's real but there's something remarkable when in the first moment of the book like a huge an entire rugby team is like that one

Jen Prokop 13:19
that Yeah, like there's your kind of girl and I remember being like but wait like I literally I think I went back and reread it like wait a minute, is that what I think it means that they all know that he he likes curvy women and they see one and they're like, there she is the one for you. I love this book was really great and, and what happens is they end up dating they end up like falling in love but because he is so fixated on rugby, like his sort of like you know, I only have this short I'm a professional athlete and my time on this team is going to be short so I don't really have time for like serious like a serious girlfriend like that's just going to mess me up. They sort of have this like low key like where she starts thinking that he's keeping her under wraps. And she's like, Is it because of the way I look? And he's like, no, it's because I really just wanted to focus on rugby. And you know, there's this amazing scene though, at the end. And I think this is also part of why I love this book. I don't think it's super spoilery where she goes to it, they go to a benefit, and they go separately, and she is dressed in this like knockout dress. And every man in the room can see how beautiful she is. And it is killing Dexter because he knows like, you know, he's like, everyone now sees what I've seen all along. And I just this book, like really worked for me at every level. I think, you know, the camaraderie between Dexter and his team. The affair between the two of them per work is like a muralist and her insistence that she deserves to have someone who loves her. Absolutely, and she doesn't need to be second best to anybody's job. I don't care if it's rugby or not. Basically and she I just love this book. I loved everything about it.

Sarah MacLean 15:03
Yeah, it's a great read.

Jen Prokop 15:05
And it's like, it's like a fun read, right? Like, it's not really serious, you know, but I just think it's like a great fun read with like, here's a curvy heroine who is like, I deserve more. And hero has to be like, Yes, you're right, dear. What do you need for me?

Sarah MacLean 15:17
Also, I think sports heroes in that moment are pretty great. Like the dichotomy between like the super sporty like celebrity hero and the normal girl who you know,

Jen Prokop 15:30
right

Sarah MacLean 15:30
looks like a normal person is really delicious. Always. That's why books like the wall of winning pegan me work so well. You know, because there is that sort of literal body perfection versus just ordinary everyday.

Jen Prokop 15:44
Right. And I one of the things I love is the authors who make space for women to feel the way they feel about their bodies and to know they deserve love and that they're going to get it right that romance is going to deliver that to them. That's really essential and important to me.

Sarah MacLean 16:00
So, my last book is kind of an older title. It is the first Bela Andre book I ever read. It's called take me and fun fact. I loved this book so much that I then went to the RWA national conference. And I like stalked Bella into and forced her to be my friend. And now we are friends. But I love take me so much. This is the same kind of I mean, you you guys are going to get a real sense of the kind of heroine curvy heroine I look for but the heroine of this book has been best friends with one half of a set of like ridiculously attractive twins for her whole life. Since they were four or five years old, and her best friend has always been her best friend and his twin brother has always been sort of aloof and not really present in her life and not really showing much interest in her, and she of course has had like this crazy unrequited crush on him forever. And I love an unrequited love story. I love unrequited love. Yeah, it's good. And so essentially what happens is she suddenly like so he's, you know, a millionaire. This was in the ages of millionaires, you guys, this predates billionaire,

Jen Prokop 17:23
Do better.

Sarah MacLean 17:25
And he's this sort of like Star millionaire, amazing, you know, all around person. And they end up but she's an interior decorator and he's a he's a developer, real estate guy. And he takes her he hires her basically to help decorate a client's house. And it becomes really clear, really quickly. I think early in the book, there's like a drinking mishap and then there's like an almost sex moment and then becomes very clear very quickly that like he's had feelings for her for a long time. And he ends up flying her to Italy to like shop for stuff for...

Jen Prokop 18:11
For his like mansion or whatever.

Sarah MacLean 18:14
Yeah, and so they fly to Tuscany and they have this like incredible weekend Tuscany and she the whole time she's like at some point the other shoe is gonna drop in this like fantasy that I have fallen into with this guy who I've been in love with for my whole life. It's just going to fall apart because he's never dated anybody who isn't like size double zero. And then she sort of sabotages it just by virtue of not believing in herself, and it's so real, like it's so painfully real because he's like, I can't convince you of what I see. And until you're able to see what I see, I don't know how to be with you. I don't know how to make this work and it is real honest. And you know, I think this is the thing that a lot of people do like we naturally as humans sabotage relationships because of lots of reasons and this is it just felt so authentic and I still to this day I love bellus books so much so many of them I love but this one still to me is like the perfect Bella Andre book.

Jen Prokop 19:17
Well and I think that's the other thing that any imperfection that any character has to deal with but especially body image issues really are about self acceptance and I think that's why it's it's not enough for your romantic partner to accept you the good books the best books are then about "I accept myself" and I think that's why they really like hit you right in the heart because all of us are working on ourselves. And and i think that all books have characters working on themselves, but somehow this struggle, really, maybe it just speaks to me personally, but when it's good, it's it's a book I just really love and they stay in rotation. And I've read and read read them and have them in multiple formats. And that's when I know it's like a real keeper for me.

Sarah MacLean 20:07
Yeah. So shout out your favorite curvy heroines. Tell us on twitter hashtag #fatedmatespod. Don't forget that if you'd like us to tackle a trope for you, you should let us know. And we will do with pleasure.

Jen Prokop 20:22
So, if you are enjoying our podcast, we would love for you to subscribe to it. Give us a rating and share it with your friends online on Facebook, on Twitter, in the coffee shop wherever you might be talking about your favorite podcast.

Sarah MacLean 20:38
Okay, everyone, well, that was curvy girls. If you are a writer out there thinking about writing a curvy romance, please do. We need more of them. I saw Naima Simone tweeted about one a couple of days ago and I'm super excited for that one. Naima, write faster.

Next week. We are back to IAD and we are on book number five. And the demons are coming you guys I'm so excited. The first book is Dark Desires After Dusk, which is Cade & Holly's book as you know we've met Cade and rods from his deposed King or dethroned King. I don't know. I don't know what the word is will sort it out before that episode. But we've met him twice. He was part of the Hie with Bowen and Mari, and he is a pretty significant piece of this Neomi and Conrad book, The Neomi and Conrad book, which we did last week. So we've got Cade and Holly up first. It's a road trip romance, and it's one that we have a lot to say about. But here's what I'm going to say because now we've finished recording both Cade and Rydstom's books.

And Jen and I think that you should probably read them both back to back if you can. If you have the time, because Rydstrom and Sabine's book, which is Kiss of a Demon King, and Cade & Holly's book, which is--what did I just say?--Dark Desires After Dusk--work in concert with each other. They're overlapping for quite a bit of time. And I think that once you've read both, both books get better.

So we are back next week with Cade and Holly's book and they still intend to release Rydstrom & Sabine's episode in two weeks after that. So there's plenty of time for your reading in order. Real life real time IAD readers were reading them six or eight months apart, so you'll be fine. We just think that you might like it better if you read them both back to back. And we have a lot to say about both of these books and there's a whole lot of conversation coming about horns and we have a special guest for Sabine and Rydstrom's book who's got a great story, and you're going to love it.

So yay! Thanks for joining us again for Fated Mates. We're super excited to have you always. If you are enjoying the podcast, don't forget to subscribe and like and review and tell your friends. Tell your mom or whoever else you would like to tell about us.

Thanks so much, guys.

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