S02 - Interstitials, romance recommendations, interstitial, full-length episode Sarah MacLean S02 - Interstitials, romance recommendations, interstitial, full-length episode Sarah MacLean

S02.08: Competence & Careers in Romance

Today, we’re talking jobs in romance novels—why we love them, when we hate them, what’s the proper work/smooch balance, and what we mean when we say “competence porn.” This is a far reaching, many-rec episode that involves discussion of billionaires, of wealth, of power, of what Sarah means when she says heroes have to be kings, no matter what. We’ll also try to get to the bottom of what an Enterprise Holding, LTD is. Nah, that’s a lie, because who cares?! Oh, and stay tuned for Sarah’s treatise on the importance of local journalism.

Don’t forget to subscribe to Fated Mates in your favorite podcasting platform — subscriptions mean so much! While you’re there, please leave us a like or a review if you feel so inclined!

Next week, we’re taking you to blasphemy town! Or are we?! The read is Sarah’s pick, Sierra Simone’s Priest, which is an erotic romance in first-person hero POV, featuring a priest and an exotic dancer (NB: She is not Catholic). If sex in church is your concern, maybe skip this one, but also know that there’s a lot fo religious allegory in here that is fascinating and brilliant. Content warning for discussion of the Catholic Church and sexual abuse. Get it at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo or your local indie.

Show Notes

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S02 - Interstitials, interstitial, full-length episode, guest host, romance recommendations Jennifer Prokop S02 - Interstitials, interstitial, full-length episode, guest host, romance recommendations Jennifer Prokop

S02.06: Cinnamon Roll Heroes with Andie Christopher

We heard you! You wanted to talk about Cinnamon Roll Heroes, so here we are, and we’re bringing in an expert on the topic (in real life and in fiction) — Andie Christopher. We’re talking about the evolution and popularization of the beta in the 90s, why they became such a powerful force then, why they’re back now, and why they work so well for some readers! We’ll also talk about dating in 2019, recommend some books (obviously), and talk about Andie’s upcoming, Not the Girl You Marry, which is out November 12!

Transcript Available

Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, please leave us a like or a review!

Next week, we’re going back to paranormal with the first book in JR Ward’s Black Dagger Brotherhood series, Dark Lover. It’s a whole ride. Strap in. Get it at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo or your local indie (it’s currently only $2.99 in ebook!).

Show Notes

TRANSCRIPT

Sarah MacLean 0:00 / #
Okay, so we're just popping this in at the beginning of the cinnamon / # roll interstitial with Andie Christopher, give us a couple minutes, you guys Andie's on her way. But we have a plan and we're very excited about it.

Jennifer Prokop 0:13 / #
It's really exciting. Sarah made me try it. So we know it works.

Sarah MacLean 0:18 / #
It's true. So we have set up a voicemail box for you guys.For old school level, like you can basically page

Jennifer Prokop 0:30 / #
Oh my god, it's like A Tribe Called Quest song.

A Tribe Called Quest 0:33 / #
Enter your Telephone number or other numeric message.

Sarah MacLean 0:43 / #
So we're going to give you a telephone number, a United States telephone number for international listeners. And you're going to get to call and it's going to go right to voicemail. And you will hear my voice asking you to tell us about the book that blooded you, Jen, what do we want them to tell us?

Jennifer Prokop 1:03 / #
Okay, so I think here's the important thing. We are hopefully going to actually play these audio clips on future podcasts. Yeah,

Sarah MacLean 1:11 / #
you're by giving us voicemail, by leaving us a voicemail you are consenting to us putting it on the podcast.

Jennifer Prokop 1:18 / #
Yeah. So I think it's really important that you probably should just say you're like your first name. You don't have to give us your full name, address please or phone number. Please don't do that.

Sarah MacLean 1:26 / #
Please don't.

Jennifer Prokop 1:27 / #
None of us would like any of your data we we want you to be pleasantly anonymous. Anyway. So you're going to tell us your name. If you would like to-- where you live. That's kind of fun when you started reading romance, some small biographical details, I think to get the flavor. And then I want you to tell us the book and it's really great if its title and author.

Sarah MacLean 1:49 / #
Yes, please. And tell us why.

Jennifer Prokop 1:51 / #
Yeah, like Sarah story where she read Gentle Rogue her desk, right? I think what we're looking for is not like your review of the book, but your memory of the reading of it. right?

Sarah MacLean 2:02 / #
We're interested in like the prime on this of this book. Why this is the book that brought you to romance and kept you here? Um, so that is the story. That is what we're doing. The telephone number is [redacted]. And we are not putting this-- you have to write it down, you guys. We're not putting on the internet because the last thing I need is like cranky readers leaving me voicemail about my books. Don't leave me voicemail about my books.

Jennifer Prokop 2:41 / #
You know what I'll say? Yeah, it's if it's, if it's anything other than like, kind of what we described, we'll probably just delete it. And you know, we're not trying to be mean, but this isn't, you know, there's lots of ways to talk to us on Twitter or whatever. This is really specifically the books to blooded us hotline.

Sarah MacLean 3:01 / #
Okay, we're gonna give you the telephone number during episodes too, but like I said, we're not gonna put it in show notes. We're not gonna tweet it. It's really it's just between all us all US friends.Yeah, you know, 10,000 closest friends. So if you leave us-- pegging crew! Don't leave us messages about pegging.

Jennifer Prokop 3:32 / #
Oh my god. I'm excited about all of it.

Sarah MacLean 3:36 / #
I'm really excited to I can't wait. Tell us about the books that you love-- from the past from the present. Call multiple times. Tell us about multiple books.

Jennifer Prokop 3:48 / #
Sure. And you know, we're not sure exactly how we're how we're going to use this yet. So you know, we don't know exactly how it'll work. So it could be that we get inundated with calls and keep it up for a week or two and take it down. It could be something that goes on for a long time. So no promises anybody, maybe we don't, but we just think it'll be really fun to hear. Yes,

Sarah MacLean 4:09 / #
this could be a very big mistake to we haven't talked, but

Jennifer Prokop 4:13 / #
I don't think it'll be a mistake. I'm just worried it's too much. Like we won't be able to get everybody on right. I mean, you know, you guys seem cool though. I think

Sarah MacLean 4:21 / #
I think we're all gonna we're all grown ups. We're all going to be able to, you know, hold hold firm. I'm very excited that I'm making you all do something old fashioned, like pick up the phone and leave us a voicemail like a a civilized human being.

Jennifer Prokop 4:38 / #
No dick pics.

Sarah MacLean 4:41 / #
Note Yeah, impossible to leave us a dick pic.

Sarah MacLean 4:45 / #
Okay, And we can't wait to hear your voices in our ear holes.

Jennifer Prokop 4:55 / #
Yes, that's right.

Sarah MacLean 4:57 / #
Stay tuned for Andie Christopher and cinnamon / # rolls.

Sarah MacLean 5:02 / #
Well, we made a lot of people mad.

Jennifer Prokop 5:06 / #
They haven't even heard the Derek Craven episode yet, so I don't even know what the hell's going on Sarah

Sarah MacLean 5:13 / #
Well, welcome to Fated Mates everyone it is a beta cinnamon / # roll soft hero week. It's a little late Great British Bake Off.

Jennifer Prokop 5:26 / #
We actually just got an amazing-- someone tweeted us right now and was like, Is there a book where it's essentially set during the Great British Bake Off? Only I don't watch that show. And so it said #GBBO, and I didn't know what it was and I go look it up. So I'm like the wrong person to ask I guess.

Sarah MacLean 5:45 / #
I am the exact right person to ask about that. I don't know about a baking one. But Louisa Edwards did a like Top Chef style romance series which we will play in show notes. More importantly, we should introduce our guest.

Andie Christopher 6:02 / #
Hi.

Sarah MacLean 6:05 / #
Before we're too far down the rabbit hole. Welcome, Andie Christopher.

Andie Christopher 6:11 / #
Hi,

Sarah MacLean 6:12 / #
we are so excited to have you. I can't believe it's taken us until season two.

Andie Christopher 6:17 / #
It's it's taken a long time, but we did record that one episode that Just didn't make it.

Sarah MacLean 6:24 / #
It's actually not that it didn't make it. It's that someone was terrible at recording themselves.

Jennifer Prokop 6:31 / #
Wait, you have no idea everybody Sarah, I'm about to tell you a story you don't even know only Andie and I know-- which is I fucked up the recording the first time it was the three of us and actually accidentally had this master reverb thing on, which was essentially it made me sound like I was in a soccer stadium. And then-- here's what you don't know. I also recorded an interview with Andie because I interviewed her for Kirkus earlier this summer, and at literally 10 minutes before our scheduled phone call. My child-- who we were in Dallas for his volleyball tournament-- played volleyball day then ate a bunch of stuff and then literally barfed all over the hotel room. And I had to clean it all up, and then call and Andie and be like, "Hi, sorry. Thank God you're not in this room with me because it's disgusting." So I'm going to go with Third time's a charm.

Andie Christopher 7:22 / #
I hope so. I hope so.

Jennifer Prokop 7:24 / #
Nobody's gonna barf right now. And I'm not in a soccer stadium.

Sarah MacLean 7:29 / #
I'm really glad and also it's a good day, you guys. It's a really good day, because Nancy Pelosi finally got her shit together and was like, let's impeach the motherfucker.

Jennifer Prokop 7:45 / #
I mean, Yes. I need her to be hard as nails right now.

Andie Christopher 7:50 / #
She was bringing the Big Mom energy during that, during that press conference. She was bringing the "I told you once I told you twice. This is the third time and now we're done."

Sarah MacLean 8:05 / #
You don't get to go to prom. Yeah, if only we actually were prom. And, uh, but basically, what better thing for us to do tonight than to talk about soft, good, sweet heroes who make us happy to be in the world.

Jennifer Prokop 8:27 / #
So true.

Sarah MacLean 8:29 / #
So to a few weeks ago, we released our alpha episode. It was the first interstitial of season two because we decided it was time for us to come, we were going to come hard for all of you with season two. And Jen and I put our stakes in the ground on alphas. And we had, I think, a really thoughtful conversation about alphas and why they exist. And a lot of people on Twitter and in other places asked us a lot of really great questions about: why alphas? and Why not betas? and why not cinnamon / # rolls? And first of all, I just want to repeat something that I feel like we said a bunch on on that alpha episode but clearly needs repeating, and that is that at no point did Jen and I say that romance novels can't exist without alphas. And at no point did Jen and I say that alphas and betas are the only descriptors of heroes. In fact, I think at multiple points we said, this is sort of a dumb way of articulating heroes because they should be more right than one thing. They should have nuance.

Jennifer Prokop 9:43 / #
I don't even know if we said that. I mean, I feel bad. We say it to each other all the time. But on that particular note,

Sarah MacLean 9:48 / #
we definitely did. I went back and checked. I said like good writing requires the hero to be nuance,

Jennifer Prokop 9:54 / #
yeah. characters to be nuanced.

Sarah MacLean 9:57 / #
Exactly. So but what's really the reason why we're here So Jen and I had already started talking about Okay, we're going to have to do, we're going to do a second episode, and we're going to do an episode that'll be about kind of the softer hero. And I don't know, I'm really glad Andie's with us because I think one of the really valuable things for us to talk about, maybe at the very beginning of this, is what makes a cinnamon / # roll versus a beta. I'm not sure I understand all the terms. So can we do that first and really sort of establish what we're talking about? And then I want to talk a little bit about history. And then I want Andie to talk about her brilliant thoughts on why cinnamon / # rolls are working now in a way that maybe they weren't a year, a decade ago or five years ago.

Jennifer Prokop 10:44 / #
So I feel like we should talk about like the origin of that cinnamon / # roll like it comes from The Onion, right? Isn't that what it is? Like?

Andie Christopher 10:53 / #
It's like, it's like this sweet cinnamon / # roll of a human is too good and sweet for this world.

Jennifer Prokop 10:57 / #
Yes. And there's Also a really funny tweet. I should find that-- Yeah, I think it's funny because a lot of people like why cinnamon / # rolls? And I think it's actually a it comes from this Onion piece and I think it's just sort of pervasively became this really funny thing that everyone just really glommed on to as being a great way to describe a certain kind of character. And the fact that, I feel like one of, a pioneering person in terms of like defining it was Olivia dade. And we linked to her list of cinnamon / # roll heroes a bunch of times. But what she says is, "Cinnamon / # roll heroes are supportive, kind people who do their best even when they make mistakes." And so that is what it is that she defines as being a cinnamon / # roll hero. And then she made out, got a whole bunch of people to crowdsource the list and so if you're looking for heroes like this, after we talked about it today, we will link to this list because it is amazing and has, I don't know, 70 or 100 books on it that you might want to check out.

Andie Christopher 12:07 / #
Yeah, I think a couple of my books are on that too, but I'm not sure if those books are quite accurately as cinnamon / # roll-y as I thought they were.

Jennifer Prokop 12:14 / #
interesting.

Andie Christopher 12:15 / #
I mean, I think they are just not quite... I'm not going at.. I'm not on the Simone scale. I'm somewhere on the Claybourne curve.

Sarah MacLean 12:29 / #
I'm gonna go ahead and say that cinnamon / # roll heroes don't even make Simone scale. Her zero point on the access is Darcy, who is not a cinnamon / # roll. So,

Andie Christopher 12:43 / #
Okay, but I was thinking about this today. And I think Father Bell [hero of PRIEST by Sierra Simone] is in some senses.

Sarah MacLean 12:51 / #
What are you saying right now?

Jennifer Prokop 12:57 / #
You Gotta start over again. Time Out. Recalibrate.

Sarah MacLean 13:02 / #
Oh my god no

Jennifer Prokop 13:03 / #
Andie!

Sarah MacLean 13:04 / #
I'm pretty sure Sierra Simone is in London right now at Rare London, and I feel like she just woke up at like 5am and was like there's a disturbance.

Andie Christopher 13:15 / #
she would love me for saying something blasphemous...

Sarah MacLean 13:18 / #
But I will hear your arguments. Miss Christopher.

Andie Christopher 13:24 / #
Okay. For me, the cinnamon / # roll hero's number one priority is the heroine's emotional, mental, and or spiritual well being, physical well being. So that kind of overrides everything else and I think, Father Bell, because we're so in his head, expends a lot of the conflict of the book is trying to put the heroine's emotional, physical and spiritual well being over his own wants and desires that he has attempted unsuccessfully to sublimate.

Sarah MacLean 14:04 / #
Okay, so I think this is really interesting because I guess that all makes that all makes sense to me but what I don't understand is like how is that different than what any romance hero wants? Like? I think about Derek Craven, right? Who was our first book of the of the season or frankly most Kresley Cole heroes-- I mean not, okay, pbviously not Lothaire. But like, you know, there are others. Like all those werewolf heroes. I mean like werewolves...are they, are werewolf cinnamon / # rolls?

Andie Christopher 14:45 / #
I think the were-- of Kresley levels-- the werewolf in "A Hunger Like No Other" I'm his name is escaping me right now. He's not a cinnamon / # roll, I would say, and like MacReive is not a cinnamon / # roll

Jennifer Prokop 14:59 / #
See! Because I'm like, none of them are, Andie! What the hell are you talking about?

Sarah MacLean 15:03 / #
She's not wrong. Because what about about Lucia and...

Andie Christopher 15:06 / #
Declan.

Jennifer Prokop 15:07 / #
Declan! He's the vivisector!

Andie Christopher 15:11 / #
Sorry!

Sarah MacLean 15:15 / #
Well, we're the same way with all those heroes. Lucia and help, help me.

Jennifer Prokop 15:21 / #
Garreth.

Sarah MacLean 15:21 / #
in the Amazon

Andie Christopher 15:22 / #
Garreth. Yes,

Sarah MacLean 15:23 / #
Garrett?

Jennifer Prokop 15:24 / #
Garreth. Is it Garreth?

Sarah MacLean 15:26 / #
Yeah. Is he a cinnamon / # roll?

Jennifer Prokop 15:28 / #
No.

Andie Christopher 15:29 / #
I think he's a little bit of a cinnamon / # roll.

Jennifer Prokop 15:31 / #
I feel like I have to log off and go lay on a fainting couch. I don't understand anything anybody? Like, Oh,

Sarah MacLean 15:40 / #
All right. So this is really interesting-- somebody, but somebody else tweeted at us. A person named Charlotte, @romansdegare on Twitter, tweeted "I've still got that Fated Mates episode on the brain as I read "Damaged Goods" and starting to wonder if cinnamon / # roll conflict is often I'm caring for you emotionally so I can't lust after you. While alpha conflict is the reverse. I'm lusting after you so I can't care for you." And Jen and I sort of discussed this privately. And like there's something maybe here this, and you said it too. I think Andie when you said: you care about her like emotional and spiritual well being. Then you said, the third thing you said was physical, and I wonder if that's part of it. Like, where the relationship starts versus where it ends.

Jennifer Prokop 16:39 / #
So here's here's what I'm going to suggest, because I right now think-- as my blueprint-- is when I think of cinnamon / # rolls, to me, the pinnacle of cinnamon / # roll-dom is "Rafe" by Rebecca Weatherspoon. And I kind of felt, I literally was like, "I should reread part of it today to like, make sure I'm all on point." And I fell right back into the book. And I think there's a really interesting part. And there's also a really interesting thread someone tweeted us from her, a woman named Kat C, And what she said is cinnamon / # roll heroes are, not cinnamon / # rolls, but she "likes reading books where people are dealing with their baggage in not so aggressive ways." And I think what "Rafe" -- so there's this part in "Rafe" where he is essentially interviewing for the job to be her nanny, Sloan's nanny or her twin girls bailed-- literally, it's like horrifying as a mother-- she basically comes home and finds her six year old girls home alone. And the nanny left the keys to the car and the house keys with a note that said, "I quit. I just don't want to do this anymore." So she's really scrambling to find someone and she ends up getting Rafe, who's been essentially nannying, He's like in his early 30s, for like 10 or 12 years. And Rafe, at the interview says to her, "Um, I think we Have a problem. I've never, I've never nannied for a single mom I'm this attracted to before." And he just has, he's a grown up who can lay it out on the table and put it in front of her, as opposed to.... I don't know, like, stomping around and not admitting he has feelings. So to me a cinnamon / # roll is like, I have feelings, and I actually am aware of them. And I know what to do with them. I don't know you guys like. And the thing is, that to me is the it's because of course, alphas care for people! We talked about that. The difference I think, is

Sarah MacLean 18:36 / #
the emotion. The emotion sneaks up on an alpha.

Jennifer Prokop 18:39 / #
and a cinnamon / # roll person is like, Yes, I have feelings. Duh, who doesn't. And I'll tell you what, it's funny. I'm going to say one more thing. I there are parts of this book. I didn't do a lot of highlighting. There's this one part where they sort of like they kiss and she's like, "I'm not sure I really want to do this" and he's like, "okay, we're gonna leave it up to you." And then he's like, "What do you want?" And she says, "I want you to make this easy on me." And I was like, there you go. He was like, you're right. His communication skills are through the roof. That to me is what makes a cinnamon / # roll a cinnamon / # roll. Being able to communicate,

Andie Christopher 19:17 / #
yeah, can use this words as opposed to like, I want to punch someone.

Jennifer Prokop 19:20 / #
Okay. And in the case of brief, also his cock fine.

Andie Christopher 19:24 / #
I sort of reject the premise that any romance hero that I'm really going to fall in love with does not have a quasi-magical penis. Like, I want I want to be like, I'm vomiting out unicorns the next day thinking about the hero and what he can do with his magical member.

Jennifer Prokop 19:53 / #
I'm just giggling

Sarah MacLean 19:54 / #
I don't think you're alone in this.

Andie Christopher 19:57 / #
I just 100%... I hate, I don't like it when a book has an awkward sex scene between the hero and the heroine. That is the opposite of what my ID wants. Like my ID wants him to like, bang it out, make her see stars

Jennifer Prokop 20:14 / #
into next week!

Andie Christopher 20:15 / #
into next week, every single time. I need it. That's just it's a baseline.

Jennifer Prokop 20:24 / #
Rafe can get it, you guys! I just want you to know. I think part of the reason Rafe is particularly-- I don't read a whole lot of cinnamon / # roll books. This one really worked for me. And I think there are a couple reasons why. One is because I hate cooking and cleaning. And I did not like raising my child. I love my son, you guys, but I didn't... those years when he was really young were really hard for me. I still hate cooking and cleaning and always well. But the idea that a competent man is going to appear and like take over those tasks for me in my house. And also Fuck me into next week. Hello. Sign me up. I mean, I'm sorry. Maybe that's not everyone's fantasy, but I'm going to tell you right now. It is hot. It worked for me.

Sarah MacLean 21:11 / #
Okay, so here's my thing, right? So I was trying to come up with cinnamon / # rolls, who I have loved. And this obviously is a challenge for me. But I, here are two who I've loved. And ironically, it's the same trope, right?

Jennifer Prokop 21:31 / #
Okay, interesting.

Sarah MacLean 21:32 / #
I loved the hero and Helen Hoang's "The Kiss Quotient."

Andie Christopher 21:38 / #
Love him.

Sarah MacLean 21:39 / #
And I loved the hero in Claire Kent's "Escorted." And in both of those cases, we're talking about soft heroes, who are all the things that you are saying-- Able to vocalize emotion, able to understand like their emotional relationship with the world, They've been through therapy, or they have these big families. But at the same time, they're male escorts and highly-- Here you are, Jen--able to bang you into next week

Sarah MacLean 22:25 / #
But also I think there's something, but at the same time, like in that particular dynamic, I think the reason why both these heroes work well for me, is because there is sort of, there is a power structure here. Like they are deeply competent, and sort of teaching the heroine something. And so maybe they're not cinnamon / # rolls at all. I don't know are they?

Jennifer Prokop 22:53 / #
Clearly we're the three wrong people to be talking about this.

Andie Christopher 22:57 / #
I mean, I definitely think--I I haven't read "Escorted." But I definitely think Michael in "The Kiss Quotient" is a cinnamon / # roll. Um,

Sarah MacLean 23:06 / #
I mean, he's got that big family. He cares so much about his sisters and his mom. I mean, He's amazing.

Andie Christopher 23:13 / #
I think there's an interesting sort of layer of conflicts there because like, I think at first, he's not trying to let her into that part of him. So he is a cinnamon / # roll, but he has this, this sort of layer that he keeps between himself, his true self, and his clients. And so I think, you know, part of the conflict and part of them overcoming their conflict is she penetrates that. And the way I think, yeah, so it makes sense,

Sarah MacLean 23:43 / #
Jen!

Jennifer Prokop 23:44 / #
you guys, I'm doing my best.

Andie Christopher 23:48 / #
It's my... I think, penetrate is the right word, because like she's a little bit sort of the alpha in that, in that power dynamic. She really, she gets under his skin. You know, I think in a way, more quickly than... and then he gets under hers.

Sarah MacLean 24:11 / #
Yeah, it's just it's a really interesting question because... so it takes us, So that is the second piece of the question is, is a cinnamon / # roll and a beta the same? Or like is that even worth having -- like do betas even exist? But then I think they kind of do, right? So we talked a little bit about the history of the alpha when we talked about alphas, and we're doing a lot of conversational romance history as we do this season. And so I think it's valuable for us to talk about the history of the beta, right? And again, I think it's important and I just want to qualify when we talk about the history and we say like early books, or we say "the first" right, we're not obviously it's almost never the actual first

Jennifer Prokop 24:58 / #
Yeah, right.

Sarah MacLean 24:59 / #
Like the last six months of my life have been researching romance novels for the RITA award ceremony and Andie was doing that with me, and the most illuminating thing about it was that every time we thought we'd found the first like, five days later, we found an earlier first. So, I think we need to talk about betas and we need to talk about Julia Quinn because while she may not have written the first beta, she definitely is responsible for the popularizing of the beta. And that is because she wrote the Bridgerton series which, if you haven't heard of it, you soon will because Shonda Rhimes is turning it into a Netflix series literally as we speak. And the Bridgertons were this kind of, so Julia had written a couple of books beforehand, but sat down and sort of and wrote this really big boisterous family. Eight children who were named in alphabetical order, and they lived in, they were the children of a viscount. And they lived with their single, their widowed mother, in like a big house in London and they had a big country house and they sort of had these like, bright sparkling dialogue... scenes filled with sparkling dialogue and like, not a ton of plot happens in these books. It begins with a book called "The Duke and I." The plot of "the Duke and I," it's a very streamlined, straightforward plot. It doesn't have a lot of like, complex twists and turns and it doesn't have to because the dialogue is so beautiful and the characters are so bright. There's something very soft and wonderful about these books. But what's interesting is that prior to Julia-- historicals looked like, I mean, literally looks like Derek Craven, right? They, they look like, like these big bananas historicals. And then Julia came in and she wrote this family that was something very different. And the first Bridgerton book, which was "The Duke and I" was published in 2000. And I've spoken to I checked this data with Julia before we recorded because I wanted, I have a theory and I wanted to make sure that it checked out. And she confirmed that "The Duke and I" and "The Viscount Who Loved Me" and "An Offer From a Gentleman," which were published in 2000, 2000, and 2001, we're all very, did very well but like did not blow the doors off. "The Duke and I" did not come out like "50 Shades," although often we think about that as being one of those books now. In fact, the fourth book in the series, which is "Romancing Mr. Bridgerton" is the book that sort of really was the sort of leap into huge for that series. And that book came out in 2002. And I have a theory that, you know, we've talked on this on this podcast and I've talked a lot in the world about post 9/11. There being this kind of boom in paranormal because readers were looking for these like big, huge alphas who could literally save the universe. And they were like, that was safety in fear and sort of existential fear that Americans were feeling post 9/11. But I'm actually wondering if at the same time, we weren't also going through a period where books were getting softer. And there was room for these like soft heroes who were the antithesis of every romance hero we'd seen before. And I'm wondering if we're seeing that now, too. The sort of rise of dark romance on one side, these kinds of like, truly bananas books that are taking the finger on one side, and something else entirely that's happening now in the world.

Andie Christopher 29:13 / #
I -think you're right. I think that actually that jives with my theory of the cinnamon / # roll and why they're appealing

Sarah MacLean 29:21 / #
so do that.

Andie Christopher 29:23 / #
Okay, so I think they're particularly appealing to sort of millennial and Gen Z. single women, or women who have recently been dating, because the cis hetero men that we are dating are fucking terrible.

Jennifer Prokop 29:43 / #
I'm Sorry I laughed.

Sarah MacLean 29:44 / #
Break it down for us Andie

Andie Christopher 29:46 / #
all we want is a nice guy, who we don't have to raise, who doesn't hate us because we don't want to have sex with them right away. Or doesn't think we're a slut if we do who can use his words and cares about whether we have an orgasm-- in a larger sense of than what it says about his own ego. Someone who can actually be a partner instead of someone who is going to destroy your like--who's gonna take your finger. But I think on the other, on the other side of that, you also if you don't if you're dating a lot of, you know, softer gentlemen, who can't make a plan to save their lives. There's an appeal to reading about a man who wants you so much he will, he will plan an abduction. And I think this was like the first thing I said..

Sarah MacLean 29:56 / #
He will plan...nice

Andie Christopher 30:39 / #
..to Kristin Ashley and I did make her laugh. I was like, I think the appeal of like abduction fiction because I think she was talking about alpha heroes. Like, at least this guy can plan a date.

Jennifer Prokop 31:06 / #
Oh my god,

Sarah MacLean 31:08 / #
don't abduct women, male listeners!

Andie Christopher 31:12 / #
Do not, don't abduct women, but, you know, make a dinner reservation. Don't say, yeah, like where do you want to go? say I want to try this restaurant-- What do you think? it's all about the balance.

Jennifer Prokop 31:26 / #
Can I ask a question? I'm going to throw it out there. I, I do not read, I don't read much inspirational romance unless it's written by Piper Huguley. But I am wondering if the rise of Amish romance, and sort of Christian romance, around the same time-- because my understanding is it's also came about at the same time. If cinnamon / # rolls are essentially a secular version of of a like a more...Like a inspirational hero?

Sarah MacLean 32:05 / #
I don't know. I don't know and I don't know enough about inspirational to be able to speak really thoughtfully on it.

Jennifer Prokop 32:13 / #
I mean, well, maybe we'll just throw it out there for our listeners to do

Sarah MacLean 32:16 / #
if you do. I would love to hear that. You know, Andie thinks that Sierra Simone is out there writing betas.

Andie Christopher 32:24 / #
I didn't say he wasa Beta, I said he was like a little bit of a cinnamon / # roll.

Sarah MacLean 32:30 / #
He's the Conrad Wroth of...

Jennifer Prokop 32:32 / #
Yeah, yeah. He's gonna use that icing for Lub, I mean, I don't know.

Andie Christopher 32:37 / #
Can we talk about stern brunch Daddies.

Jennifer Prokop 32:39 / #
Oh, yeah, sure.

Andie Christopher 32:41 / #
Okay, so this is this is all Sarah's fault.

Sarah MacLean 32:44 / #
It's Andie's genius, though.

Andie Christopher 32:47 / #
Yeah, I did come up with the term. So Sarah posted this picture of Oscar Isaac sitting at like a table, at what looks like a restaurant, like holding a fork and like staring intently at the camera, and she's like, okay, Andie, I see him now. AI was like, Oh, I get what you like you like a stern brunch daddy. A guy who is gonna make sure your Mimosa never goes empty, but then he'll like spank you until you cry later.

Jennifer Prokop 33:11 / #
Sure, sure.

Sarah MacLean 33:13 / #
I mean, he would never allow you to be seated by the kitchen.

Andie Christopher 33:16 / #
Never. Like never he wants to talk to the manager.

Sarah MacLean 33:21 / #
It's true. This is only because I have Chris Evans blindness, meaning if he doesn't look Stern, I don't see him. I'm unable to see him and I have that problem with Oscar Isaac too, because I feel like if he doesn't look Stern, I don't even know what I'm looking at us like a blank face.

Andie Christopher 33:39 / #
Yeah, I mean, he has to serve up a little bit of Derek Craven for you to feel it.

Sarah MacLean 33:43 / #
Precisely. Which is why we're doing this podcast, this episode, because I don't I truly want to understand it. Because it's interesting and I think that what we're coming to is that it is in actual fact a exactly two sides of the same coin. Because everything that, you know, every way that we're articulating this in terms of like care and comfort and protection-- or not protection-- but care and comfort and like ease, right, like softness is ultimately what we want from the alpha on the other side. But it's it's almost like we're talking about when you get to see it in the book, like,

Andie Christopher 33:44 / #
Yeah,

Sarah MacLean 33:44 / #
do you see the transformation in the book? And if you do, it's like that. Then you've started as you know, I'm air quoting. You can't see it, but

Andie Christopher 34:40 / #
right.

Jennifer Prokop 34:41 / #
I don't know. I. I feel like because where

Sarah MacLean 34:45 / #
does the transformation come from the storm brunch?

Andie Christopher 34:47 / #
He just is

Jennifer Prokop 34:48 / #
I feel like cinnamon / # role heroes don't transform--- I feel like heroines do. Their romantic partners transform not them.

Sarah MacLean 34:56 / #
So when you think about Rafe, what's the transformation in the book?

Jennifer Prokop 35:00 / #
It's not, that's, okay. So I think the transformation in the book is for the heroine who in this case her ex husband is real dirtbag. And this is it's the only man she's ever been with. And so to be with Rafe to be with someone who respects, her who--she's this amazing surgeon, right? Who, who she can say, "I want you to make this easy for me" and he listens to her. I mean, it is just a transformitive-- like Andie was saying-- it's a transformative experience for her because she has been used to men disrespecting her and now she does not have to suffer that in her home. Right? And, and, and deep dicking into next week. I mean, this guy really knows how to take care of her in every way. So, but he, I do not see him as being a character who really undergoes change. He is--

Sarah MacLean 35:51 / #
Would we say like, they're, they're perfect from the start? Because Michael in "The Kiss Quotient" is pretty fucking perfect.

Jennifer Prokop 36:00 / #
Well, here's here's what I would suggest, because I actually don't know that I think they're opposites as much as I think it's just trying to achieve something different. And you're, as you were talking, I guess I would say this: to me, the alpha is like, I am pursuing what I want and that's also going to end up being what the heroine wants, we're going to figure it out together. But to me, a cinnamon / # roll hero-- if it's male, female romance-- is like, I know who I am. And I'm pretty happy and I'm wildly attracted to this woman. So my goal is to make sure she's getting what she wants. And I do think that those are different. That's, that's how it reads to me. When it works.

Sarah MacLean 36:41 / #
Yeah,

Jennifer Prokop 36:43 / #
I mean, that's what Michael wants, right for Stella in "The Kiss Quotient." He's like, what do you need from me? What what, how can I move you along this path that you're on? Now? I think he does undergo a journey.

Sarah MacLean 36:54 / #
Okay. But here's the thing, A lot of people came at us on Twitter about this and they were like, they were like, The problem with alphas, the problem with alphas is that they never want, they never want to hold up women and give women what they need. Right? They don't want women to have jobs. They don't want women to, you know, they don't want to support women in their careers or whatever. Right. And I think that that's a really interesting, and that's sort of what you're not saying, You're not in the extreme like that. But like, you're sort of dancing around that too. And that doesn't make very much sense to me in a modern role, like maybe the old romances? In a modern romance-- I've never written a hero who's like, "now you stay home, you don't get to keep running your bar" instead Haven has office in the bar now.

Jennifer Prokop 37:39 / #
So to me, if that's what an alpha is, I don't like it.

Sarah MacLean 37:44 / #
Yeah, well, if there's a parity issue that I think like gets lost in the argument here. Like,

Jennifer Prokop 37:51 / #
I just think alpha heroes if if we're comparing them and I don't even honestly know if it's that useful. Like maybe it's just different things entirely.

Sarah MacLean 38:00 / #
Maybe we're just spinning our wheels.

Andie Christopher 38:01 / #
I think it's hard to write like a really, really close to pure alpha in a contemporary romance Are you like you believe that you want, you would want to be in that same kind of relationship? And so to a certain extent, you know, there's still like alpha heroes and contemporary romance, obviously. But I think they're tempered to a certain degree. If your goal is to write a book that isn't like escapist.

Sarah MacLean 38:31 / #
right Right, right. Yeah. Fantasy right like if it's not you know, 50 shades like billionaire

Andie Christopher 38:40 / #
or like a motorcycle club. If it's not, it's not like um, you know, sort of a world you don't live in right?

Sarah MacLean 38:47 / #
It's not a Harlequin presents,

Andie Christopher 38:49 / #
Right. I mean, I think you can even write like, more pure alphas if you're writing sports romances. You're writing about like, larger than life.

Jennifer Prokop 38:59 / #
I want to go back to me like this really foundational moment in "Rafe" right? She says, "I want you to make this easy for me." And he as a cinnamon / # roll understands that what that means is I'm My job is to figure out what she needs and give it to her. I think if you said to an alpha, I want you to make this easy for me, he'd be like, "great, Just do what I want." And I don't think that means like, don't have a job. I think that just means like, Don't make me feel feelings. Right? Like let's just like have all the sex and stuff. I don't know!

Sarah MacLean 39:31 / #
I don't think it would be, "Don't." I don't think it would be "don't-- just do what I want." I think it would be like "Fine. Who do I pay to fix this problem?"

Jennifer Prokop 39:42 / #
Yes, Right.

Sarah MacLean 39:43 / #
Who do I punch to make you feel better? Like for an alpha he's he's a battering ram. He's like, "What do I have to break to make you happy?"

Jennifer Prokop 39:55 / #
When she says this to Rafe, and I like I said, I think this moment, To me it really spoke to, At its core what it was, when she said, "I just want you to make this easy for me." He understand that. That meant she meant,

Sarah MacLean 40:06 / #
emotionally

Jennifer Prokop 40:07 / #
I'm a little, I'm a little afraid of making decisions. I'm a little tentative, I'm not sure. And his response was, like, "come down here. We're going to figure it out together." Right, which I'm going to tell you it really works for me. I think it's really sexy at every level, but just in a totally different way.

Sarah MacLean 40:24 / #
Yeah, no, I mean, who doesn't want that?

Jennifer Prokop 40:26 / #
Yes. Right.

Sarah MacLean 40:27 / #
That's great.

Jennifer Prokop 40:29 / #
I'm just saying, I think how if I said to Derek Craven-- just make this easy for me-- He's like, good! Leave and go back to Greenwood Corners, so I don't have to think about you because you're freaking me out.

Andie Christopher 40:43 / #
And I mean, like St. Vincent would be like, maybe we should bone. An orgasm will make you feel better.

Sarah MacLean 40:50 / #
Right? But in real life, I mean, this of course, makes perfect sense. In theory, it's it's the moment where you say, I have words Or I have concerns or I have, you know, whatever. And the response is I want I hear that and I want to act to fix them. Like that's a, that's a noble thing. Like, I wish we all had that every day.

Jennifer Prokop 41:15 / #
Well, and I mean, maybe that's the fantasy: that they never tire of us being needy. I mean, I don't know, I mean, I think it's, I liked what Andie said a lot. It's not this idea that someone if we said-- I just want you to make it-- sometimes I literally say to Darrell, he's like, "what do you want for dinner" and I say, "I just want you to decide, that's what I want." Like, literally, that's what I want. I want you to decide I want you to make that decision. I just want you to make dinner appear in front of me. That is what care looks like to me right now.

Andie Christopher 41:48 / #
I mean, there's that there's that meme that you just say "I'm baby." So there's that like, you sometimes just want to like walk in the door and be like, I'm Baby, I get all of the like love and attention and coddling; as opposed to, I feel like, this like applies to some of my friends who you know are in relationships, especially hetero relationships that they feel like they're doing a lot more work.

Jennifer Prokop 42:23 / #
You know what this reminds me of. Okay, so back when I did TFA right after I was out of college, I had a roommate named Amy. And Amy would say the thing that, the first time she said it, I was like, that's the truest fucking thing I've ever heard. She'd had a fight with her boyfriend. And I don't remember exactly how it came up. She was fighting with him, she had this really tumultuous relationship. And she said to me, she's like, "you know, you can't ask for flowers." And like what it meant was if you have to ask for the flowers in order to get them, they mean less. A gesture-- a romantic gesture-- has to be driven by the other person. They have to know that what you need or want is flowers, or that right it comes out of nowhere. And I feel like you would never have to ask a fucking cinnamon / # roll for flowers. You would have to say though, to many alpha heroes: flowers are an actual sign of affection and every once in a while if you bring them to me, I will be happy

Sarah MacLean 43:29 / #
Well, it's it's interesting because there's also I'm sort of like dancing around in my I'm like playing over and over my head this idea that like there's something here about toxic masculinity. Which is these heroes lack that kind of toxicity. They are masculine without toxicity. I retweeted somebody today who was trying to explain, just because we don't want toxic masculinity doesn't mean we don't want masculinity. We don't want acid rain, but We still want rain. I think that's a really useful, Shit. What's a call from the SATs?

Jennifer Prokop 44:10 / #
An analogy?

Andie Christopher 44:12 / #
metaphor?

Sarah MacLean 44:14 / #
With the blank colon blank

Jennifer Prokop 44:16 / #
An analogy.

Sarah MacLean 44:18 / #
Yeah, whatever. It's a really useful one of those-- I think there's something there, essentially it's pure, it's and I do think it's contemporaries more than anything else that are doing, this because I mean, if Andie to Andie's point--- it's terrible out there, right? It's like that mement in "When Harry Met Sally" when You know, Carrie Fisher leans back and turns to Bruno Kirby and is like,

movie dialogue 44:52 / #
Tell me I'll never have to be out there again.

Jennifer Prokop 44:54 / #
Yes, that's right.

Sarah MacLean 44:57 / #
This is the moment

Andie Christopher 44:59 / #
I feel like there's all these studies that people, like millennials and Gen Zers or is are literally not fucking. Like Gen Z does not fuck

Jennifer Prokop 45:13 / #
Sad.

Andie Christopher 45:15 / #
I mean it's it's real sad, it's sad for me...on a personal level. But that's why I'm glad we have Sierra Simone in the world. Anyway, but it's real bad, and so it like you just want like a guy who is like, I was thinking-- I want a guy who's gonna open my door for me, and like smack my ass on the way out, but he's gonna know he has permission. Um, he's already he's gonna make sure that's okay. But not like in a needy or clingy way.

Jennifer Prokop 45:50 / #
Yeah, I mean, there are no consent issues with...

Sarah MacLean 45:53 / #
but this is such a fantasy. I mean, what you just asked for Andy is like fucking impossible

Jennifer Prokop 45:59 / #
That is more of a fantasy than anything else, right?

Sarah MacLean 46:01 / #
And that's more, that's more of a fantasy than any of these fucking alphas. The idea that-- well, I want him to get consent, but I want to make sure but he can't be too weird about getting consent, it can't feel needy or unsexy, right? You want it to be both sexy and also very clear. And you know, I wanted to smack my ass, but also respect me. And that's not to say that all of this isn't totally reasonable. But here's what's interesting. That takes, in real life, a long time to build with a partner. But like in these books, these guys just have it all.

Andie Christopher 46:38 / #
Yeah, that's what I mean. I that's when I went when I was like writing the hero in "Not the girl you Marry," I specifically set him up as he has been the perfect boyfriend his entire life, and he's failed at relationships. And that's kind of where he starts. So I tried to like have a cinnamon / # roll with a journey. But I still wanted him to be virtually perfect.

Jennifer Prokop 47:06 / #
Of course I think about um, you know, so many of Christina Lauren's recent heores have been this way-- this kind of truly perfect guy who just hasn't fit right.

Andie Christopher 47:21 / #
And I feel like a lot of Kate Clayborn's heroes are that way, they have either definitely flawed and human and layered, but they're not, you never question that they respect the heroine. That's never of question, and and see her as an equal.

Sarah MacLean 47:42 / #
I'm wondering if this is part of why we're seeing, that we've seen so so many fake engagement stories, too, recently? Yeah. Because you know, in our fake engagement episode, Jen and I talked about the fact that like the fan, the fake engagement is like Like, play acting that fantasy relationship. And in order for that to happen, well, cinnamon / # roll hero can do that.

Andie Christopher 48:11 / #
Yeah, and it's also like a cinnamon / # roll hero like you're faking that perfect relationship. Plus he acts like a human Flak Jacket at something like a wedding.

Jennifer Prokop 48:21 / #
Yeah. You know what I keep thinking? When we talked about alphas, the thing we said was it's the fantasy of the alpha is that the patriarchy can be tamed. I think the fantasy of the cinnamon / # roll is that the patriarchy does not have to be trained. They already come in, they're coming fully trained, but they're fully human. Right? Like, there's no way in which-- they have their feelings, they, they understand consent, like they help, you know, literal helpers around the home and whatever way. I mean, you know, maybe that's it. It's like taming versus training.

Sarah MacLean 49:00 / #
Or maybe I would go one step further maybe this fantasy is the patriarchy doesn't exist.

Jennifer Prokop 49:08 / #
They are still masculine.

Sarah MacLean 49:11 / #
Well, that doesn't mean that --it's not, Again, they're just not acid rain?

Andie Christopher 49:17 / #
It doesn't exist within this one human. It hasn't like it hasn't rotted that person to his core. You don't have to send them to therapy for 10 years before you can even talk to him.

Jennifer Prokop 49:28 / #
Yeah. Or that the Yeah, maybe that's right. The patriarchy has not ruined them.

Sarah MacLean 49:35 / #
No.

Andie Christopher 49:36 / #
Yeah, cuz like a lot of the ones you get you know, if you're just trolling on Tinder you're like, Oh, wow. Oh, wow, you're-- this is this is spoiled. I'm just so mean. I'm so mean. That that's why I'm single is because I mean. You're like, oh, your shirtless picture with like the, you know, sleeping tiger. Just show that you're dick is huge. That? That's rotted to the core. I'm not a cinnamon / # roll and not an alpha really either.

Sarah MacLean 50:09 / #
No Well that's the other thing right? There's this like, perception of alpha as incel. And like that ain't it either.

Andie Christopher 50:17 / #
So no, because an alpha wouldn't-- as opposed to an incel--an alpha would never tell like the heroine she's ugly in order to like, get her to like him, or to get her to care about...

Sarah MacLean 50:33 / #
Yeah, no negging allowed.

Andie Christopher 50:37 / #
Yeah, I think we solved it. You guys, I think.

Jennifer Prokop 50:40 / #
All right, fair.

Sarah MacLean 50:41 / #
Well, now Andie, you have a book coming out with a cinnamon / # roll hero.

Andie Christopher 50:46 / #
I do.

Sarah MacLean 50:47 / #
My favorite kind of heroine, the unlikable kind.

Andie Christopher 50:50 / #
She, so what Jen was saying earlier about like the sort of the cinnamon / # roll hero being A foil to a heroine and who has a bigger journey--. And so a lot of the people who've read early copies of "Not the Girl You Marry," which is out on November 12, have said, most people talk about the heroine, Hannah. And part of that is because I basically poured so much myself into that character. It's a version of the trope in "How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days" with the gender roles updated. The heroine is biracial, It's set in Chicago, which is a place that I've lived. And Jack is a cinnamon / # roll. He's always been the perfect boyfriend. He's a literal, honest to God, choir boy. And he like falls instantly in love with the heroine who is giving him the finger at a bar and He works for like a BuzzFeed like type publication. And he's like a video guy. And he does how- to's. And so his boss tasks him with how to lose a girl, and he, he, the only girl he's met of late is Hannah. And so he sets about losing her by doing all of the terrible things that guys who are spoiled by toxic masculinity do-- like sending dick pics, not being communicative, Trying to make her jealous, all of that dumb shit. And she's an event planner, and she wants to get into weddings, but she's very, very soured on romance and her boss is like, "you don't even believe in love." She's like, "Yes, I do. I'll show you. I just met a guy. I have a boyfriend." And so she like has to continue dating Jack to convince her boss that she's not completely soured on the concept of love. And then high jinks ensue. But her journey really is the more angsty emotional journey. She has to come to believe that she deserves love and belonging from not only jack but from her friends who have been trying to offer it to her. So she has to learn to make herself vulnerable. Jack, on the other hand has to learn to stand up for himself a little bit more and take into account what he wants and, you know, not just surrender to whatever like his girlfriend was. And in that way, he basically has to get Hannah to respect him in a way. Not that he's soft. He's like, I mean, he is soft, but he's not. He's a little like I described him as a cinnamon / # roll from the corner of the pan. He is crusty and

Jennifer Prokop 53:54 / #
that's actually amazing.

Sarah MacLean 53:56 / #
Perfect. Well, so not the girl you marry is out November 12. You can pre order it now from all your favorite bookstores. And we will put links to it in show notes. And Andie, what comes and after that? There's a companion.

Andie Christopher 54:21 / #
There's a second one. So they're both standalone. The second book, it's called "Not that Kind of Guy" has a character from the first book in it and it's actually a workplace romance between assistant State's Attorney in Chicago and her much younger intern who comes from an extremely wealthy, politically connected family. And she sort of just like thinks he's a twerp, like a very attractive twerp. Um, and he is madly in love with on first sight, which is a theme Because that's my id and they're working togethe

Sarah MacLean 55:04 / #
Fated Mates.

Andie Christopher 55:05 / #
It's Fated Mates. I love Fated Mates rope and yeah, high jinks ensue. There's there's a trip to Vegas you know there's a wedding. And yeah, so it's it's still more her journey because she has to like come to terms with the ending of her relationship with her childhood sweetheart and he really just, he needs to learn how to like stand up to his family. Um, so he's he's definitely another cinnamon / # roll because he just, you know, wants to take care of people and he you know, wants people to love him. Um, but he's, he's really hot.

Jennifer Prokop 55:45 / #
Well, that goes will Oh, I mean, that fixes a lot.

Sarah MacLean 55:48 / #
it goes without saying Yeah,

Andie Christopher 55:49 / #
yeah, no, I mean, I fall a little bit in love with him throughout the course of the book. Bridget, the heroine in then the second, in "not that kind of guy" is good friends with her, with the heroine-- becomes good friends with the heroine in the first book. And so there's also that friendship and a sense of found family, which is also it's an id for me in books.

Sarah MacLean 56:21 / #
Well, this is amazing. And I'm so glad that you texted me with your idea about why cinnamon / # rolls work. And I think because I do I mean like, I think you're right. I think Jen and I have been talking-- and not just us, we didn't invent this conversation. But for the last two years we've seen this sort of evolution and romance and it seems to be going so quickly. And there's this sort of sense of people are calling them you know, they're it's you know: is everything a rom com? What's happening with all these illustrated covers? What are we trying to say with these covers? What are we trying to say with the Books? And I think cinnamon / # rolls are somehow wrapped up in this conversation in a really interesting way. And I'm always interested, as you both know, and why things happen and what these books are doing the work that they're doing. And if it is about pure fantasy, first of all, oh, men do better.

Andie Christopher 57:24 / #
I mean, I think it's, I think it's about like convincing readers -- writing the book for me, "Not the Girl you Marry" is about convincing myself that love was possible in a world as broken as this. But my conclusion is, that thesis is, the guy has to be close to perfect. And I think it's like, we don't need to be in relationships. And so I think, why are we in relationships? And I think that's what I think that's what a lot of these books are asking. Like, what are we looking for in partnership? And why bother?

Jennifer Prokop 57:56 / #
You know, the thing I keep thinking about though, the fantasy part, I think is really powerful. And I think romance is really transformative, I think it's often very difficult to sort of, I think the best romances put both characters on a journey. And sometimes that journey happens together and sometimes the journey is a little stronger for one than the other. And I think what I really like about like I said in a cinnamon / # roll, in a male, female, where the cinnamon / # roll is the hero, what I really appreciate the most, is the sense that the heroine's journey is really highlighted. And that it his job to like showcase, what she is capable of and like make that possible. And that to me is--you know, not just that such a man exists but that you know, like self acculizatin, like finding yourself, and in a romantic relationship that your romantic partner makes you better and stronger. I mean, that's something we do all deserve. And I think that this is one really powerful way that romance shows that that can happen. I guess that's what I'd say.

Sarah MacLean 59:11 / #
Well, Andie, thank you so much for joining us.

Andie Christopher 59:15 / #
Thank you for having me. It was so much fun.

Sarah MacLean 59:17 / #
Andy, tell everybody where they can find you online.

Andie Christopher 59:21 / #
I am on I am on twitter @authorandieJ, and I'm on Instagram where you'll mostly see pictures of my dog. My Facebook is also @authorandieJ, and I there you'll see a lot of pictures of my dog. And you know, news about books. but I am I'm mostly shouting on Twitter.

Sarah MacLean 59:48 / #
Well, thank you for coming on Fated Mates. Everyone Next week, we'll be back with another deep dive read from season two, And you can find us on Twitter at Fated Mates or on Instagram at Fated Mates pod. You can buy Fated Mates pins from Kelly @resistancebuttons on Jen's website, jenreadsromance.com. Fated Mates is produced by Eric Mortensen and we will see you all next week. Enjoy your cinnamon / # rolls.

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S02 - Interstitials, romance recommendations, guest host Jennifer Prokop S02 - Interstitials, romance recommendations, guest host Jennifer Prokop

S02.04: Novellas with Alyssa Cole

This week we’re talking about novellas with one of the best novella writers around—Alyssa Cole. Join us, along with Alyssa’s tree frogs, to talk about why she loves the novella format, the trick to writing a short romance, and her upcoming Audible original!

Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, please leave us a like or a review.

We’re back in two weeks with Johanna Lindsey’s Gentle Rogue, set on a ship with a heroine-in-pants and a hero who really deserves everything she delivers him. Find it at: Amazon, B&N, Kobo, Apple Books, or at your local Independent Bookstore!

Show Notes

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Bonus Episode, romance recommendations, crossover episodes Sarah MacLean Bonus Episode, romance recommendations, crossover episodes Sarah MacLean

Fated Wallflowers/Wicked Mates Crossover Episode!

In July, at the Romance Writers of America annual conference, we had the extraordinarily good luck to record a crossover episode with Jenny Nordbak & Sarah Hawley of The Wicked Wallflowers podcast! We talked about our favorite books with a roomful of librarians & bloggers, and we had the best time. Now, you can, too!

Be sure to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting app so you know the moment we return! 

Subscribe to these other amazing romance podcasts, too!

Listen to the longer version of the conversation with Sarah (MacLean) that Jenny (Nordbak) talks about in her discussion of Brazen & the Beast.

Sarah's hometown library (complete with dark corridors for romance novels) is the Lincoln Public Library in Lincoln, Rhode Island.

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18.5 : Antiheroes in Romance

It seems only right that our final Season One interstitial be about antiheroes because we’ve pretty much been a fancast for antiheroes since the start of this podcast! Let us talk to your earholes about wicked heroes and why we love them!

Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform so that you know the moment we start Season Two (in early September)!

Next week, it’s the end! WHAT HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE?! We’re talking Sian (HORNS HORNS HORNS HORNS HORNS HORNS HORNS) & Lila with Wicked Abyss, featuring the literal King of Hell, and the Queen who takes fully no shit from him. Get Wicked Abyss at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo, or at your local indie!

Show Notes

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16.5 : Royals Romance with Nana Malone

This week we’re talking all things royal! Join us with the fabulously fun Nana Malone to talk about kings, queens, princes and princesses, royal weddings, royal gossip, why Nick Jonas married SO FAR ABOVE HIMSELF, and how we wish poor Kate Middleton could just have a cheeseburger with her friends.

Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, please leave us a like or a review. 

Next week, we’re finishing up the Game Makers series with arguably Kresley’s most damaged hero, Dmitri Sevastyan! Basically, July is “Sarah’s favorite books” month, so settle in for that…we’ll be joined by one of our favorites, Kate Clayborn, who will reveal the name of our group text thread! Read The Player at Amazon, B&N, Apple Books, Kobo, or from your local Indie.

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15.5: Epistolary Romances

Love letters are the best because they’re personal and honest and raw and beautiful, and this week—by request—we’re talking about all the different ways romance tells epistolary love stories! Leave us your own version of a love note in comments!

Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, please leave us a like or a review. 

Next week, IT IS HAPPENNNINNNGGGGG! We’ll be talking about Sweet Ruin, Sarah’s favorite book in the IAD series, and she is BEYOND EXCITED to talk about her favorite Kresley hero and the magnificent, perfect heroine who refuses to back down from their fated matehood. Block off some time, as we can’t guarantee this will be anything near a normal length episode! Read Sweet Ruin at Amazon, B&N, Apple Books, Kobo, or from your local Indie. Also, we promise you won’t be disappointed by the audio of this one!

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14.5: Space Romance - There Are No Wallflowers in Space!

Well, it was destined to happen sometime—we’re taking the show intergalactic! This week we’re talking about space romance and why it’s totally. fricken. bananas. Discover the series that brought Jen and Sarah together, hear us talk about prison planets, sex planets, the Muppet Show and more. Series by Grace Goodwin, Emmy Chandler, Robin Lovett & Jessie Mihalik.

Transcript available

Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, please leave us a like or a review. Also — if you have a romance loving friend, please let them know that we don’t just talk about vampires & valkyries, and maybe they’d like us, too?

We’re back to the Game Makers in two weeks with Jen’s favorite of the three books, The Master, and one of our favorites, Sophie Jordan! Get ready for chastity belts and string bikinis! Read The Master at Amazon, B&N, Apple Books, Kobo, or from your local Indie.

Show Notes

Transcript

Movie Dialogue 0:00 / #
And now another controvertable episode of

Jennifer Prokop 0:03 / #
Fated Mates. Welcome everybody. We're going to be talking about space romances. I'm Jen Reads Romance.

Sarah MacLean 0:13 / #
I'm Sarah MacLean. I write romance novels and I read romance novels. And all I want is for a pig's in space-style intro to this, where it's like, "Romance in Space!"

Jennifer Prokop 0:29 / #
Oh God, me too Miss Piggy was formative.

Sarah MacLean 0:34 / #
Man. "Pigs in Space" was the best. Also the -- I forget what it was called, but the General Hospital-style soap opera on the Muppet Show? We're super dating ourselves. Now. I'd like everyone to appreciate.

Jennifer Prokop 0:49 / #
I don't even care because it's amazing. She just, everything was so sparkly and silvery when she was in space. I loved it.

Sarah MacLean 0:58 / #
I know. I know. And it's making me want, I wonder if The Muppet Show's on Netflix? "The Muppet Show should be on something I would love to show my daughter The Muppet Show.

Jennifer Prokop 1:10 / #
Yeah, I'm, I'm pretty sure it's somewhere that's I remember going through that when our son was younger, and really being like, "We got to watch the Muppet Show, man." It's good times.

Sarah MacLean 1:19 / #
Well cause also, as a grown up, you come to Sesame Street with your kids. And then you realize all the good muppets are not on Sesame Street. The good smartass muppets, Miss Piggy, uh Gonzo, Fozzie Bear. None of them are on Sesame Street.

Jennifer Prokop 1:41 / #
One of my favorite Muppet movies is the one with Gonzo being from space. God, what was that one? Hold on. I gotta. I don't. Muppet Movie.

Sarah MacLean 1:54 / #
I don't know. But I do feel like this is giving Eric some meat food.

Yeah, there was a there was a movie that was all about Gonzo and you know who else had had? Okay? The guy from The Good Wife and Dead Poets Society that oh makes me bite my fist because he's still fucking handsome.

Are you talking about Robert Sean Leonard?

Jennifer Prokop 2:16 / #
No I'm not. I'm not about fuck that guy. I'm talking about the other guy. You know the one who was on the Good Wife?

Sarah MacLean 2:21 / #
Ethan Hawke.

Jennifer Prokop 2:22 / #
No. I'm talking about that the other guy. God.

Sarah MacLean 2:25 / #
How many other guys are there in Dead Poets Society?

Shut up. The best guy. The one...

Which one?

Jennifer Prokop 2:32 / #
The one who makes out in on The Good Wife, the one who makes out with her in the elevator?

Sarah MacLean 2:37 / #
You keep saying The Good Wife. It's not gonna make me have seen it.

Jennifer Prokop 2:40 / #
Ah, hold on. I'm like, "Google's my friend."

Sarah MacLean 2:46 / #
You guys, welcome to my life.

Jennifer Prokop 2:48 / #
No, stop it. I'm an amazing person. Just because I can't remember people's names.

Sarah MacLean 2:53 / #
Dead Poets Society is a seminal text for me. It's so. I'm confused by which guy, which boy you're talking about.

Okay, wait, I'm trying to find out. So Alicia, the one with Will Gardner. Okay, so Will Gardener is the name of the guy in The Good Wife. And ahhh I'm, you know.

Will Gardener is the guy.

Jennifer Prokop 3:16 / #
Max Overstreet! He's the guy plays Max Overstreet!

Sarah MacLean 3:19 / #
Wait a second. He's not good. He's a bad guy on ah, in a lot of things.

Jennifer Prokop 3:25 / #
Okay, but in this Muppet Movie with Gonzo he also is fine. I'm just telling you.

Sarah MacLean 3:29 / #
Well, he's fine everywhere.

Yeah, well, God, yes. Oh my God. There's a scene with him kissing Alicia Florrick in the fucking elevator.

Oh. Max Overstreet. You're right. And then.

Jennifer Prokop 3:39 / #
Max Overstreet!

Sarah MacLean 3:41 / #
He's the one that goes on the date and Dead Poets Society. And then what does he do? He brings, it's Josh Charles. Josh Charles night. It's from Sports Night.

Jennifer Prokop 3:51 / #
You know, I'm starting to realize that you and I not remembering names and titles is way deeper. There's a lot of layers to it.

Sarah MacLean 3:59 / #
I know. You guys so I know my faves are problematic but I have an obsession with Aaron Sorkin and the things that he writes and Sports Night is magnificent. And you have to appreciate that me saying that Sports Night is magnificent is it must be super magnificent because I know nothing about any thing involving balls. I mean blow up balls. Although. Wait. I mean, throw ball, kick ball.

Jennifer Prokop 4:04 / #
Sportsballs, Sarah.

Sarah MacLean 4:11 / #
Sportsballs. Although I will say that I was at a signing not long ago and a woman came up to me, a reader came up to me, and if you listen reader, please tell us who you are. Please say hi on Twitter or Facebook or somewhere. Um, she came up to me and she said, "Do you know the difference between you and Tessa Dare?" And I was like, "Well, I mean, we're not the same person. So I know a lot of things that are different about me and Tessa Dare." And she said, Tessa Dare writes about balls and you don't.

And I was like, "Oh," and I realized I really don't. I generally don't involve myself with testicles. Apparently Tessa does everyone. So you know if you've never read Tessa Dare and you're into balls she's for you.

Talk about a close fuckin read. I mean damn girl.

But I did come home and I put balls into that book. Cause I was like, "Well, I refuse to be bested."

Well, Sarah, I'll just circle back around to I'm real embarrassed to tell you the name of this fucking movie that you should watch with your daughter is called Muppets from Space. I's not even complicated. How the fuck could I not think of that? Muppets from Space. Jesus Christ.

Amazing. And is it Pigs in Space, but like a whole movie?

It's like a whole movie, Miss Piggy's for sure in it.

It's like the Wayne's World of the Muppet universe?

Jennifer Prokop 6:00 / #
They're trying to figure out where Gonzo's from, if I remember correctly, but it's really fucking cute. It's one of my favorites. It's really, really cute. So I would recommend it. I feel now, it almost feels dirty to somehow segue to romance from there, but you know, whatever.

Sarah MacLean 6:18 / #
Whatever. Romance and space and here's the interesting thing. It's real dirty in space. I feel romance off planet. It's like suddenly everybody's allowed to write whatever the hell they want.

Jennifer Prokop 6:33 / #
We've talked about this with, with paranormal, right, when you remove people from human society on Earth, you get to break a bunch of different rules. That totally makes sense to me.

Sarah MacLean 6:45 / #
Yeah, it, it actually really does. It's a interesting, because so I when we talked about doing this episode, my instant thought was like, 'Oh, well, we're gonna have to we have to talk about those early ones.' But I don't think there were that many super early romances, but they, there was a Jane Ann Krentz called "Sweet Starfire". The cover's pretty great. The heroine has the most perfect, they're basically just metallic boobs underneath there. They're weaponry.

They're they're very. It's not even perky. It's -- they defy gravity.

There very firm. They are incredibly firm breasts. Um. It's basic...so okay, so the heroine has telepathy, she's telepathic and um she is, well or no, I'm sorry she's not telepathic but she's from this world of people who are telepathic and she doesn't have it. There's some reason why she doesn't have it. And she has to figure it out, and then the hero is basically Han Solo. He's a delivery man in space.

Jennifer Prokop 8:08 / #
My theory, and I will get to this later in the show, is that every good character I love in a space romance is basically Han Solo.

Sarah MacLean 8:17 / #
I mean, it makes sense though, right? Especially, because so I don't know what date. I don't know what date this is, but it had to have been early days. Um, and well, I do know what date the other one is, the other one was written in the, so the other one that sort of is instantly imprinted on my mind is Johanna Lindsay's "Warriors Woman", which is in the Ly-san-ter series, which is spelled Ly dash san dash ter because I don't know dash.

That's how you show that you're an alien culture by having some real weird spelling. Gotta use a bunch of punctuation.

Add in punctuation to make it seem real to me, but I am gonna I know last episode I was like, "We're not gonna read the back cover copy" because it sucks but here's the thing: back cover copy has changed a lot over the years because if I had back cover copy like this, I would make everyone read it all the time. So, here it is. In the year 2139 fearless Tedra De Arr sets out to rescue her beleaguered planet, Kystran from the savage rule of the evil Crad Ce Moerr. Experienced in combat but not in love, the beautiful, untouched Amazon flies with Martha, her wise-cracking, free-thinking computer, to a world where warriors reign supreme--and into the arms of the one man she can never hope to vanquish: the bronzed barbarian Challen Ly-San-Ter. A magnificent creature of raw yet, disciplined desires, the muscle-bound primitive succeeds where no puny Kystran male had before--igniting a raging fire within Tedra that must be extinguished before she can even think of saving her enslaved world.

Jennifer Prokop 10:30 / #
That's a whole lot.

Sarah MacLean 10:31 / #
We're gonna read it y'all.

Jennifer Prokop 10:34 / #
I'm kind of ready to read it right now.

Sarah MacLean 10:36 / #
So it's like this is Conan the Barbarian fanfic. And then there's the you know, and it makes sense. Where Johanna Lindsay was an earthy, you know, Schwarzeneggery kinda lady. Jayne Ann Krentz is more of an intellectual. Uh. You know.

Jennifer Prokop 10:58 / #
Han Solo type of snark guy. We should I swear to God, I always say this but now it's summer so maybe I'm, I'm constantly like, "we should be making BuzzFeed quizzes that go along with this." Like, "Which 70s or 80s space hero Do you imprint on?"

Sarah MacLean 11:20 / #
So anyway, that is where so when I say there were space romance is not new. There were definitely I mean these are huge writers. These are the big names of the 80s writing these space romances 80s and 90s. And so certainly there was there, they appeared here and there, but there are more of them now. And there are more that are sort of well-known and respected and, um, real fucking entertaining, frankly.

Oh, God. Yeah. Well, that's, I think that's, I think what it is too. So here's a little secret about me as a reader, which is. Oh, are you okay?

I was just gonna say um, "Warrior's Woman" is was published in 1990.

Jennifer Prokop 12:11 / #
I am a more of a sci-fi person than a fantasy person. Just in general, right? When I move Back to the Future and movies I loved about space travel and aliens and Star Wars, Star Trek, all of that is way more my jam. And so one of the things about space romances is I um, I feel like there's there's world building but it's less maybe? You know, fantasy. I am not a good enough reader. I'm gonna own that. I'm just like, "Oh shit, who is this guy again?" You know what I mean? I feel somehow fantasy, it requires more of me as a reader in a way that I'm like, "Uhh I'm not good at this." So I do think it's that imprinting thing. When I think about Star Wars, Back to the Future, Star Trek, that whole decade where I was growing up and just I couldn't get enough of it. So part of me is like, "Of course I love these space romances. They're amazing." If Han, I mean all we ever get from Han Solo and Princess Leia is that one fucking kiss or whatever, right? We deserve more. We deserve better. We deserve space threesomes.

Sarah MacLean 13:27 / #
Yeah. laughing We deserve sex planets, so let's just make it so.

Movie Dialogue 13:34 / #
"Make it so. Sir? Do it."

Sarah MacLean 13:40 / #
Um, okay, so we're in. We're in a golden age. I would say.

Jennifer Prokop 13:45 / #
Yes. I love it.

Sarah MacLean 13:46 / #
Of space romance. Well, wait, where should we start? Should we just, should should we start with this series that...

Jennifer Prokop 13:53 / #
Brought us together!

Sarah MacLean 13:55 / #
Oh, well, we should start...laugh everyone thinks that it was IAD but it wasn't I mean Jen and I knew each other through the IAD you know universe,

Jennifer Prokop 14:05 / #
But our real bonding happened...

Sarah MacLean 14:07 / #
Yeah, but our real bonding came over Grace Goodwin

"The Interstellar Bride" series.

I'm so embarrassed by this whole episode.

Jennifer Prokop 14:18 / #
No. I'm not. They're fucking awesome.

Sarah MacLean 14:20 / #
They are.

Jennifer Prokop 14:20 / #
But you know what? I was. I was on a family vacation where there were more people than seats in cars. And so somehow I kept always getting left behind, which I swear didn't mean to happen, but it was get the kids and the grandparents there. And I was like, "Whatever you're going to a kid's movie, it's fine." And I read a ton of these fucking books you guys one after the other. I literally could not get enough of them.

Sarah MacLean 14:44 / #
What's the series name?

"The Interstellar Bride" series.

Yeah. Oh my God. So you guys. Okay, so Jen. Picture this. Let me paint you a picture. So Jen and I are not friends yet. I mean, we're friendly. We like each other on Twitter. We're follow, we follow each other on Twitter. But um, I don't know how it fucking happened. I think it probably happened because "Ice Planet Barbarians". So Sophie Jordan, who is joining us next week for "The Master", is a dear friend of mine and she loves a bananas book just more than anybody in the whole world. And she started reading those "Ice Planet Barbarians" books by Ruby Dixon. And we found ourselves down the rabbit hole, the two of us, and it was you know, we I looked up a week later and I've read like 17 of those blue alien books. It's, the whole week is a blur. And, um, and I would recommend the first, you know, however many you want to read until you're ready, you know, at some point, you'll just overdose on them and then you'll just be like, "Okay, I'm done with these blue alien books."

It's like when you're at a bar and you're drinking. It's the first real night nice of summer and you're drinking maybe some kind of frozen cocktail. They're going down real easy. And then all of a sudden you're like, "Whoa, I just did. Wait, I just overdid it."

Exactly. I imagine it's what, I've never done cocaine, but I imagine it's like coke. You're like, "This is great!" And then you're like, "Whoa, I need a nap."

Yeah, that was it. So we had to shift from that to another similar series, right?

Then we started, so then it was just one of those things where, anytime anybody asked, "What's the craziest thing you've read recently?" We'd be like, "Well, have you read Ice Planet Barbarians?" Because it's weird. I mean, a spaceship crashes. A woman out in this ice planet. She comes she stumbles upon a giant blue alien and he immediately goes down on her. And it's crazy. So whatever. Periodically the "Ice Planet Barbarians" comes up online, and like we talk about how crazy it is. Then Jen, DMs me, I think, "Have you read these Grace Goodwin books?" And I was like, "Well no, but obviously I'm in the mood for another drug." So the structure of these books are, first of all, these are not in KU. "Ice Planet Barbarians" are in KU so you sort of feel like it's free. Grace Goodwin has put her books not. You are paying $3.99 for each one of these books. And I mean, I'm not gonna lie. I gave that money to her for a long time. These are probably not in your library either, you guys. So the first chapter you're like, "Hello. Here's the heroine having sex with two men, or whatever it is."

Jennifer Prokop 17:48 / #
But they're aliens, right?

Sarah MacLean 17:50 / #
There's 4000 books in this series. And the first one, all you know is that she's having sex. She's in the middle of sex with this person and you're like, "This feels like a very jarring entry into a book. But okay, Jen recommended it." So. And then she wakes up and you realize that she has been in a machine. In a sort of, uh,

Jennifer Prokop 17:50 / #
An MRI sex machine.

Sarah MacLean 18:14 / #
An MRI sex machine.

Jennifer Prokop 18:18 / #
Sarah, that's what it is. Hello. Instead of it being a big doughnut, it's like a big vagina.

Sarah MacLean 18:28 / #
And then she wakes up and there's a doctor and the doctor's like, "Oh, hey, you've been matched" to an interstellar, a male of a species on another planet and you are a human. You're basically a fertile human, female, and you're basically going to be shipped off to this dude, wherever you are.

Well, and it's always this alien.

With sex compatibility.

Yeah, and the deal is that at least for the ones I've read, this interstellar bride program right, the other the alien planet, they have pairs of alien men essentially agreed to mate this woman or that's how it works on their planet because it's so dangerous that that way if one of them dies, the other one will be able to you know,

Protect her.

Jennifer Prokop 19:29 / #
Protect her and still be there for her. Now none of them ever die. So it's just these, polyamorous, super sexy threesomes.

Sarah MacLean 19:37 / #
But I will say, male female male.

Jennifer Prokop 19:40 / #
Oh always.

Sarah MacLean 19:40 / #
There's no crossing of the swords. Which is a big bummer for me.

Yeah, I think that's why you and I both are like, "Meh." Here's my other thing, is the the woman on earth who's part of the intake process. Her name is Warden A Gara. And as time went on, in these books, it became clear that she had some sort of backstory herself. And I was like, "It's like a year later, has she ever gotten her own book?" And I do not think so. But I bet we cannot be the only people who are like, "Warden A Gara, where is your book?"

Why doesn't she get herself in the machine?

Jennifer Prokop 20:16 / #
Well, I think she had a mate and something went wrong. And so now she's back in the pool and you know, not ready.

Sarah MacLean 20:23 / #
Sure, sure. So, take your time A Gara. Um, but here's what's really interesting because this is it. These really echo. So I'm really fascinated by the space books because I think they're doing some sort of interesting work, as part of the genre. I mean, this is welcome to Fated Mates everyone. We're gonna talk about, we're gonna try and figure out, why these

Jennifer Prokop 20:49 / #
What it's doing, right?

Sarah MacLean 20:50 / #
What, at first glance, feel like real one-handed reads, if you know what I mean, but I think doing some interesting work and what these books are doing is very similar to what medievals were doing in that they're telling a story about each one of these meetings in these Grace Goodwin books is intergalactic because intermarriage between the two cultures solidifies the relationship between the two planets. It's like your Norman female is sold to a Saxon warrior. Or vice vice versa. I don't remember my history. So I think whatever goes. So that's interesting, there's something going on there. But also then there's this very real sense of woman alone, in a world in a threatening world.

Jennifer Prokop 21:44 / #
Yeah, sure.

Sarah MacLean 21:45 / #
And there's something really compelling about that. In 2019 for me, I've been talking a lot about, you and I haven't talked in a ton about how it feels like now, in 2019, you have to options and romance you have the super soft, really gentle calm love story. Or you have like, space prison planet book. And we're gonna get to. The two. I feel like they're scratching the same itch, socially. Because I'm right now not really that interested in a soft book because I want to see threat. I want to see anger. I want to see women and people in marginalized communities triumphing over, you know, the worst. But I think a lot of people are like, "The world is horrible. And I just want to escape into my like, soft cinnamon roll of a book."

And I think that they're two sides of the same coin, which is how when, we think about like, "What does romance?" How does romance approach the patriarchy?" And I think one of the things we've talked a lot about is, we're excited about the way that it you know, I was reading really interesting thread this morning that was when we talk about romance being by women for women, that it that's that used to be true, but now it's also really trying, I think, at least the books I'm interested in trying to be a place for anyone who's on the downside of the gender spectrum, right? Anyone who's not a cis het male. And so therefore, opening up for non binary for queer people, right? And so I think that these books are really pushing against sometimes too gender dynamics, because one of the big differences I think of in these books is that women aren't always just receptacles or receivers. Sometimes they're fighting back. Sometimes they're the heroine. Sometimes they're saving their mate. Sometimes. I feel like there's a lot of ways in which it's, you put, you put people in space and then sometimes their roles. Whether they be gender roles or work related roles or marriage roles. Kind of, "get a chance to change because now you're in a different society." So I do think that that's, that's what it is too. So it's exploring like, "Who are we in relationship to this institution?" Maybe? Whether it be the prison planet, the meeting, the inter bride program, whatever.

Yeah, I agree. I think there's something really interesting to be said for, for just how these books are. It's weird because almost all of them sort of really solidify in some ways underscore that kind of physical difference between the sort of women as the weaker sex

Hmm, yeah right? Well, cause the aliens are always seven feet tall. It's like a monster dash, right?

Even in, so let's talk about let's talk about Emmy Chandler next. So, if you follow me on Twitter you know that I, about three weeks ago went through this massive Emmy Chandler phase. I was on retreat with a bunch of other authors, somebody recommended, we were talking about, I was with Sophie Jordan, Sophie loves a prison book, we're talking about these prison planet books. And now I can't remember the name of that series either. Anyway, and I had never read them. So I picked up the first of the Emmy Chandler prison planet books. The first one is called Guardian. Oh, it's just called Prison Planet, the series. And so the concept is people get shipped off from planet from, again, it's kind of a star trekky kind of futuristic society where there are many different planet many different planetary planets that are in part of some sort of planetary consortium. And if you commit a crime, you are sent to this prison planet where

Jennifer Prokop 26:22 / #
It's Australia.

Sarah MacLean 26:24 / #
Yeah, where there are sectors and each sector has a different kind of criminal in it. And women and men are sent to all the sectors and it's a very intense. Content warning on this. There's a lot of threat of sexual violence in this book. Because obviously, when you are in a position where women and men are imprisoned in a enclosed space, no matter how big the enclosed space like that sexual dynamic is that that dynamic of sex is going to be there between them. And it's overarching. There is a constant threat of sexual violence in these books. But what Emmy Chandler is doing here in that...so the first one is called Guardian and basically a woman is sent to this to this prison planet and then she discovers, she gets to choose her mate, like meat, she gets to choose the man who she is with for 30 days. And then his job is to protect and feed and clothe her and her job is, you know, to pleasure him and he of course, is very noble and heroic. And it all works out sort of fine at the end, although I want to talk about what fine means in the context of some of these books. The second one Hunter is my favorite of them.

Me too. And it's the most dangerous game basically, right?

Yeah. Yeah. So very rich people get to pay money to come down onto the prison planet and hunt killers basically in an enclosed space. So it's like Hunger Games, there's an enclosed space with lots of cameras and things that are monitoring you. In that one, the heroine gets herself put into this enclosed space too. So the hero and heroine are both being hunted by the same man. And the heroine is a technological genius. He is just physical, pure brute physical strength. She is mental. She's just a genius. And so to get so she saves the day in that book with her intellect,

Jennifer Prokop 28:50 / #
Right, and he keeps them safe when they're out in the woods essentially, right? I mean, so it's together they're this unbeatable team. Even against all of the ways in which they're ... the other hunter has weapons has technology as cameras can find them. There's these really terrifying metal dogs that essentially are just if they run into you, they're just gonna rip you to shreds. I mean, it's a classic, like "The Most Dangerous Game" is a classic, short story about a general who essentially creates his own island, right? And he's gonna hunt, the people who get shipwrecked on the island, and he sets up essentially a trap to shipwreck them. And have you read this?

Sarah MacLean 29:38 / #
No. But I mean I know the premise.

Jennifer Prokop 29:40 / #
You know, the trope, right? And it has to be an island the same way this has to be a prison planet, right? You have to be isolated. And even if you can defeat the hunter, how are you going to escape is always the meta question that's kinda underneath, right? There's no real escape from any of it even if you can beat this one, this one guy.

Sarah MacLean 30:04 / #
No. And so the third one, "Champion," is lady gladiator. She gets to choose her, she's sentenced to death, and she gets to choose the way she dies and she chooses fighting as a gladiator on the prison planet for TV. And the only woman who's ever done it. That's real Hunger Games-y. She gets a makeover and she has sponsors. If you loved the Hunger Games, and you wish there had been sex in it, and you are not scared and you are not triggered by sexual violence in any way. Nobody in these books actually, gets raped. But it's ... It's a threat constantly.

Jennifer Prokop 30:51 / #
Or it's happened in the past, right? I mean, in the second one, she's essentially been or no is it?

Sarah MacLean 30:57 / #
I think she kills him before. I mean, you should not, if that is triggering for you at all, you should not read these books. But that third one, "Champion," and you can read these standalone. You do not need to read them in order. But "Champion" is, if somebody said to me like, "I want Hunger Games, but a romance." It's "Champion." Um, anyway, and then they go on from there. But there's something really interesting about these books, especially now in that happily ever after in these books, can't really be happy.

Jennifer Prokop 31:35 / #
Cause the world is not righted.

Sarah MacLean 31:37 / #
They're still on a prison planet. Right? So it's a really odd. There's something very satisfying. They were incredibly satisfying for me as I was reading them. But I really I keep going back to why is because we talk all the time -- one of the big questions that -- I'm sorry, I know I'm talking a lot...One of the big questions we have a lot is it In historical, specifically, is, "Why don't people write poor characters in historical romances?" I mean, in contemporary is too. And the answer has always been well, because it's not, if you're poor, is it happily ever after? If you're more literally worried about where your next meal is coming from. Is it happily ever after? And these people are alone on a prison planet.

Here's what I think it's really about. I think this is the work right? We talk a lot about partnership, right? That's what a romance sort of delivers at the end is, these two individuals have become like a team, right? And now they're going to face whatever struggles to happen together. And I think that's why it ultimately works because even though they're still danger in their future, and we know that. We also know that they have come through something where we trust that whatever their future, right, whatever this future conflict is going to be for them, that they are going to tackle it together. And there's something really appealing about that. Right? And I don't necessarily, by the way, think that that's just a romance thing. I think that's a friendship thing. I think a lot of these books have, build communities of people together, right? I think going back to Ice Planet Barbarians, they all start to work together. And it's literally watching a new society form. Only it's one often where gender differences are irrelevant, or there's more equality. You know, people are essentially literally making a new world for themselves. So I think that's why that's really appealing.

Mm hmm. I agree. And it feels like if they could triumph over these really dark moments. If you can be a lady gladiator and survive, then what can't you do?

Jennifer Prokop 34:12 / #
You got this right? Well, and often I will also point out that almost always those external conflicts are human in nature. Right? So it's you got kidnapped and sent to the ice planet barbarians. These men who set up the the gladiator dome and you're in it or whatever. So they're beating humanity, and then forming something new on this new planet. I mean, I think really profoundly. It's this idea that we're starting over. We're going to do this better. We're not going to end up in 2019. We started there, but we don't have to end up there.

Sarah MacLean 34:53 / #
Yeah, well, what's interesting is that they're not all this kind of gendered? Funkiness and, and that's where I want to go next because I want to go to Robin Lovett's books. Um, Robin Lovett is writing a series called Planet of Desire. The first one is called "Toxic Desire." Fun fact. Johanna Lindsey. No, Johanna Lindsey, wrong. Fun fact, Sophie Jordan and Joanna Shupe both texted me about "Toxic Desire" within 18 hours of each other. I don't think you all have heard Joanna talk about bananas books. You will hear Sophie next week to talk about "The Master." But when they both recommend a book, I know it's gonna be special. So Planet of Desire is Robin Lovett series, where, again, it's futuristic, there's kind of an intergalactic Space Consortium, there's a big bad planet or bad guys.

Jennifer Prokop 36:05 / #
It's the 10 planets Consortium, I think or something right?

Sarah MacLean 36:09 / #
Yeah. Yeah, it's like the EU of space.

Jennifer Prokop 36:11 / #
And the thing that's really interesting, before you launch into this is, all of the, if you're working on one of the 10 planets ships, they demand that you be essentially gender neutral, but what that really means is that you are essentially disguising yourself if you're a woman to present more as a man. And so what happens is they land on this, this sex planet, and the reason it's a sex planet is because there's something literally in the atmosphere, the Desedre or whatever, I don't how to say it.

Sarah MacLean 36:43 / #
Aphrodisiac. The atmosphere itself is an aphrodisiac.

Jennifer Prokop 36:47 / #
And you can't get away from it right?

Sarah MacLean 36:50 / #
You're gonna die. If you don't have sex, you will die.

Jennifer Prokop 36:53 / #
Yeah, masturbating is not enough. It has to be a mutual thing, right?

Sarah MacLean 36:57 / #
Well, masturbating will help for a little bit. Yeah ultimately, you gotta have sex. And it doesn't matter it's can be there it can be. It can be any form of sex with, it's polyamory, queer, queer sex, whatever kind of sex you want.

Jennifer Prokop 37:15 / #
It does not have to be P in V.

Sarah MacLean 37:17 / #
It's about the emotional connection between the two, three, four, however many people.

Then what happens is, people there are as I mean, in the first one, there's an enemy. So the the alien kind of male of the species who's there hates the 10 planets people.

Enemies to lovers. Yeah. Cuz he was on. He was a prisoner on the ship or something? Anyway, he has gold skin. And, and when they when he when anybody has sex with this, this type of creature I mean, not creature but this type of being in the world. Yeah, they then turn gold.

Jennifer Prokop 38:06 / #
I know, it's amazing!

Sarah MacLean 38:06 / #
It's so crazy.

That sex is gonna make you golden.

But that's a really good one because he was this is again, it's a classic old school romance trope. "I was imprisoned by your people. I hate you by virtue of you being those people."

Jennifer Prokop 38:24 / #
And yet here we are together.

Sarah MacLean 38:26 / #
Here we are. We're forced. We are forced together and it's on. It's not only forced proximity, it's for sexual proximity, because if we don't do it, we're gonna die.

Jennifer Prokop 38:37 / #
And this is a whole series then plays around with a bunch of other things. And the second one, there's essentially a sex Olympics, of course.

Sarah MacLean 38:44 / #
Yeah. Well, that also again, we're back to if you like the Hunger Games. Hunger Games read alikes, with Jen and Sarah! Hey scholastic!

Jennifer Prokop 38:59 / #
We're like defiling your intellectual property.

Sarah MacLean 39:03 / #
Um, cuz that second one is sex in an arena. Not gladiators. Fucking.

It's performative. It's in public. It's a voyeuristic. I mean, because then there's...

I really like the whole community though.

Well, the, essentially the people, that alien race that lives on this planet then has developed a certain kind of culture based around this.

The need.

Jennifer Prokop 39:38 / #
I will say this, if you liked the idea of Feveris in Dark Skye. This is this is the series for you. This is your next book after that.

Sarah MacLean 39:50 / #
But I really love it because it's so sex positive. All the people are, "I don't understand. Why are you being so weird about sex?"

Jennifer Prokop 40:00 / #
You know, when we as people on earth travel, I think, at least I would hope most of us have this basic understanding that it's not our place to put our cultural mores on to that new place we're visiting, but to experience, what's going on here? To eat the food of the place, you're going. To try and speak the language, right? We understand that is sort of our responsibility when we choose to travel. But what if when we travel some other world, it really is fundamentally seems wrong with what you've either learned about who you are as a person or your culture. And it's kind of rules and morality. And then it really becomes, again, that conflict level really ramps up because now it's person versus society. And you're like, "Hey, this isn't how I'm supposed to act, but I have to do it in order to survive here." And those kinds of really strong internal conflicts are which are pressure from an external conflict -- that's always a real interesting. I like that. It's real meaty.

Sarah MacLean 41:10 / #
I agree. I mean and I think that's done very well in third book in this series which is just now out is it just out?

Or it, we both just got it from NetGalley let me look.

In the third book in the series, the hero is a person from the homeworld. This is his world. Yes. And because of by virtue of the sex requirement, all the time sex to stay alive on this planet, right? The the characters the people who live on this planet, they don't really believe in love. They don't believe in monogamy. I'm sorry, not love. They don't believe in monogamy. And so the concept of monogamy is incredibly foreign to them, and problematic for them because they're like, "Well, wait a second. Because what if something happens?" Right? Like what if?

You know, your mate has to leave you for a week. You're gonna die. It's just, it's impossible. It's impossible to be monogamous and live on this planet. Right?

Well, and this dude has a special gift.

He's a shaman or something.

Jennifer Prokop 42:20 / #
He's a sex god. He has to share it with the people.

Sarah MacLean 42:24 / #
So yeah. So basically his whole thing is, if you're sick on this planet, he has special energy that he can infuse in you but he has to do it via sex. It's all real bananas. Robin. I mean, what is happening in your head? PS: I love you, Robin. I met you a BA and you're amazing.

Jennifer Prokop 42:46 / #
No, but you know, this is one though, where instead of her just acclimating to his rules. She has. She he acclimates to sort of her culture, right? And she has this real concern about, "It's complicated," of course. But every single one of the conflicts that happens is really about again, "Who am I? Who do I want to be? Should having a sexual relationship with someone make it so that they're my mate for life?" I mean, essentially, it's her drama because of her. You know, she is not even entirely human. She's some other thing too.

Sarah MacLean 43:23 / #
But I think for him, his conflict is really interesting too, because if you're born into a destiny, do you have no other choice? His whole conflict is society versus self. In a very concrete way. "If I take if I do the thing that I want to do for myself, I have to turn my back on this responsibility that I have towards my society." I mean, it's very it is actually very Dark Skye, this kind of in you know if...

Well, Robin is reading Dark Skye right now.

But if Thronos didn't have such a stick up his ass about everything it would be very Dark Skye. So yeah I mean so I've really liked this. I like it for another reason to that I just want to shout out and this is not to say look, most people in romance, are not public about their entire persona. I use a pseudonym. I am Sarah in real life but you know names are all changed and it's funky but a lot of these sex planet books or space books are written under very private pseudonyms. I'm sure partially because they're there is something kind of salacious and scandalous about them at first glance. Robin is very public, she's a public figure. She uses her actual photo and I'm not dissing anybody who doesn't do that, but I just want to give an extra shout out to her for being brave.

She's great. And I think that's what it is, too. I think, fundamentally, you know, I think, sometimes erotic romance gets this really hard rap. "Meh. It's it's just porn." Obviously, no one listening to us thinks that. We don't think that. But I do think books that really examine our sense of self in conjunction with our sexuality and what that means when they aren't necessarily in alignment the way we want them to. That's, that's worth us digging into as a genre. And I think that when you a lot of the books that we've talked about so far already are really doing that and a variety of really interesting ways. And so, yeah, they deserve some credit for pushing against a, I don't know, a boundary that I think a lot of people don't really, it's harder to explore.

Yeah, I really want us to have, as a genre, I want romance, and I think this is something that places like RWA really need to sort, RWA has a lot to sort out, but someday when we get down the list from the really critical things that impact people's actual real lives in the world, I want us to have a real conversation about erotic romance. And, what it means. Why it's valuable. What the difference is between a sexy book and an erotic book. Why we need those books. Why we need to honor those books as as themselves. And I think a lot of these books are doing that work.

Jennifer Prokop 46:27 / #
Yeah, I think so. True. So I want to talk though, because sci fi / space romances aren't always just sex planet books. That's all true and interesting. But there are a couple other ones that I thought that we could talk about. Because I like science fiction so much, maybe I've read more of them. And there's a couple that have come out, in the past year, that I think are worth just mentioning. And then I want to talk about a couple that I just read that I really liked. So I want to talk about "Polaris Rising" by Jessie, is it, Mihalik? I'm not sure how I'm saying her last name correctly.

Sarah MacLean 47:12 / #
That's how I would say it but we apologize.

Jennifer Prokop 47:14 / #
This is a, now I'm gonna be really honest with you, I think this is the kind of romance light. There is a romantic arc. But I think the big arc is for our heroine, Ada von Hasenberg. And she is essentially and this is my catnip, right? So she is the princess essentially in the in the universe. There's three really powerful houses and house von Hasenberg is one of them. And she's the fifth of six children. And she has all these skills but her real job is going to be to marry somebody for her house. So this is the all the aristocracy stuff, but put in space. And a couple of years earlier she got told she was gonna have to marry somebody. And she was all like, "Fuck all y'all," and she takes off. And so she's on this space adventure and she, at the beginning of the book, has been caught kind of accidentally. She was just in the wrong place at the wrong time and someone picked her up who didn't really even know what they had and all of a sudden figures it out. And she gets put in a cell with a guy named Marcus Lock who is essentially the most wanted criminal in the galaxy.

Sarah MacLean 48:27 / #
And hey, Marcus. I wanna say this. He's known as the Devil of Fornax Zero. Which I mean everyone knows if they're called the devil then you definitely are gonna bone 'em. I mean, that's just gonna happen happen right?

And they pretty quickly figure out that they can use each other to essentially escape the ship and she promises like, "Look, I'll pay you a ton of money. If you get me out of here. If you help me get out of here," because she's crazy rich from this crazy rich family and they go on this massive space adventure. And the reason I say it's romance light is, there's a clear romantic arc but I don't think it's the A plot, right? It's like Princess Leia if she didn't have to be fucking dead weighted with Luke and everybody else, right? She is just on her own adventure and it's fucking great. And I loved it because I love, you know she's got blasters, and implants, and she has to go do all this crazy...

The cover. I know that we always joke about covers not being important and whatever read the book, but this covers badass.

And I'm going to tell you I also just read it does not come out till October 1 so maybe this is bad form, but I just read the sequel which is about Ada's sister Bianca. She has been previously married. She went through the house marriage thing. And part of the reason Ada was so sure she didn't want to do it, she saw what happened to her older sister's. Now Bianca's husband is dead. She's back in the house. And there's a big romance between her and the head of house security.

A bodyguard romance!

Jennifer Prokop 50:16 / #
Hello, exactly. And again, I feel like if you go into these books, thinking there's gonna be a romance but it's going to be kind of secondary to this Space Princess plot. Then you like me will be very happy. And I love them cuz they're about competent women.

Sarah MacLean 50:36 / #
I love it. So over the so just to confirm the series is how many books?

Jennifer Prokop 50:42 / #
It's going to be three. The first one is "Polaris Rising." It's out now. And "Aurora Blazing" comes up second.

Sarah MacLean 50:48 / #
And this plot. The meat of the plot is over three by books. It's like Game of Thrones in space.

Jennifer Prokop 50:58 / #
Yep. It sure is. House politics, right? So their house wants something from them. There's all this intrigue between them and the other houses. There's always competition, essentially.

Sarah MacLean 51:12 / #
And each of the books is a standalone romance. It's just the overarching series is the plot.

You know what, I think that people will like that. Because also I do feel like it's more common in science fiction to have the same characters over books, but I like that instead it's like the house. House Van Hasenberg.

Well it flips the script and it makes them more, it actually does make them more romancey. Because, yeah, a romance reader. Well, I mean, Jen, please, if you're recommending these, they have to be complete romances at the end. You're not gonna recommend them if at the end, you're like, "Well, are these two ending up together?"

Jennifer Prokop 51:49 / #
You're gonna get that HEA but what I really liked about it is, I think number two worked for me because they work together more. In "Polaris Rising," there's actually quite a few scenes where they split up and we follow Ada who does her own shit. Saves him a bunch of times. That worked for me too. But, I think if you need them to be on page together all the time, it's not quite the same. But I really like them a lot.

Sarah MacLean 52:20 / #
It sounds like Romancelandia really loves this book. It's on my desk because it's one of my next reads. I mean, it's on my desk with eight other books, but, and I got a puppy this week. I don't know what I'm doing.

Jennifer Prokop 52:30 / #
You're not reading space romances.

Sarah MacLean 52:31 / #
I'm also reading this book. I'm reading this puppy training book that's written by monks. I don't even know who I am.

That's real awkward. Sarah. Real awkward. Are we done?

I think so. No wait. You had a queer space romance.

Jennifer Prokop 52:48 / #
Oh, I do have one I want to shout out it's called "Treason of Truths" by Ada Harper. And it is essentially also a bodyguard romance except, so the queen or the empress, her name Sabine, so of course I was already really into liking her. And then her lover although it's real complicated at the beginning. You can't quite figure it out. Her name is Lyre. L Y R E, is that how you say it? And her job essentially is, she's the spymaster for the empress. But the book opens with her doing some negotiating and you definitely at first like, "Wait is this unrequited love?" Lyre's just super into Sabine but then they get back together and you could tell everybody thinks they're already lovers. It's kind of hidden but there's this great line at the beginning and I was all in where Sabine says something to someone in Lyre thinks, "When she says, 'Thank you,' she can make it sound like, 'Fuck you.'" And I was like, that's my kind of character right there. So that one is one that I I actually have not finished yet. But I've started once I knew we were doing this and I've been really enjoying it but I will admit I'm not there yet. I'm not done yet.

Sarah MacLean 54:08 / #
Oh great. Well I'm glad that we shouted it out. Tell us your favorite space romance because we want to read more of them. I downloaded "Warrior's Woman" like a lunatic earlier so I'm ready. I mean who am I kidding? I'm not reading this monk book. But we are very excited. I'm always jazzed when we can talk about a sub genre of romance that is feels new. Feels fresh. There are just there are only so many wallflower rakes that you know, I mean, I love a wallflower rake. God knows. But

There are no wallflowers in space, Sarah none. And maybe that's why I like it.

I don't think no. This is really fun. It's summer. It's time for space romances. If there were ever a time for space romance. It's summer.

Now, before we go, you wanted to try something new at the end of every episode.

Oh my gosh, I wasn't ready to do it today. But

Do you want me to start?

You start. Yeah. And I've got a thing that I'm yeah, I've got a thing to talk about.

So it's just sharing something fun that we had happened to us or that we did. Is that what it is?

I don't know. No, I'm thinking that it should be a like, "Is there a book that you just recently read that you think is great?" Okay, the recc. Either a book or a movie or show or thing?

Jennifer Prokop 55:38 / #
Oh, okay. So I have been watching Chernobyl on HBO to no one's surprise because everyone knows I know love a nuclear story. But you know, it's been really cool. I know.

Sarah MacLean 55:49 / #
That's so obscure and weird. Oh my god. Have you read Alyssa Cole's mixed signals?

Yeah, but wait, you didn't know that about me. You didn't know

I knew that you, vaguely but I didn't know that it was, you know, a thing you put in your bio. Send me your nuclear romances.

Okay. Actually, there are a few nuclear romances and I have not read them.

Well, that Mixed Signals one, isn't it?

All right. That's Listen, I read nonfiction nuclear books. I've read many, many books about Chernobyl. I know that's real fucking crazy, but I love it. Yeah, so I've read Actually, I'll take a picture. I put it on Twitter. You just don't follow me closely. Enough. I have a whole nuclear shelf anyway,

I have puppy now. I can't I just I can't. I can't Twitter.

Okay, here's what's really cool about if you've watched the show. They also have a podcast that goes along with it. And what's really cool about the podcast is, it's the guy from Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me, which I was on one than once. I was on that once and won. But

You were on what?

Jennifer Prokop 56:55 / #
Wait, I'll tell you that in a minute. Wait, and he's interviewing the writer. And what they do is they kind of go through the episode and talk about what parts are true and where they came from and which parts he essentially wrote in. So it's a really cool way of experiencing the show. Kind of like, if you ever have that question when, you're watching something that's based on real events, you're like, "Which parts real which parts aren't?" The podcast is so fun to listen to, as you watch because that, or after you watch, because then you're like, "Oh, that's a composite character. Oh, that dialogue actually came straight from voices from Chernobyl," so I really recommend the podcast in the show.

Sarah MacLean 57:38 / #
Cool.

You can recommend puppy books, I guess.

Nope. No, I you guys, I so I really love the movies, but I don't go to them enough. And that is the thing that is real. But I went to see Book Smart.

Jennifer Prokop 58:00 / #
Oh, I want to see that!

Sarah MacLean 58:02 / #
My lovely friend Megan Frampton, and Megan and I live five or six blocks from each other and in between our houses - this is what's so great about living in a city - is a movie theater. So we met in the middle and we went to see Book Smart, which is, I said to my husband, "It is the greatest last night of high school movie I've ever seen." Basically if you loved all those high school coming of age movies, this movie is about the very last night of high school. Tomorrow morning is graduation. And the heroine is the valedictorian and her best friend, who is the salutatorian - is that how you say that? Salutatorian. And they are adorable workaholic. Well, the valedictorian is an adorable workaholic nerd. And the salutatorian is mega feminist nerd. And they've done nothing but be each other's friends and study to get into the best possible colleges and to do their amazing things after after high school. And then on the last day of school, she discovers that all the kids who she thinks like, "Well, they've just slacked off and not done anything. And they're all going to, you know, nowhere colleges and she's gonna end up being their boss," turns out, they're all going to Yale and Princeton, Stanford and big colleges, and she realizes in the very beginning of this movie, she's basically missed out on high school because she was so panicked for the rest of her life. So she had that one night to rectify it. It's like a buddy movie. And it has all the beats. There's a little there's a little bit of a romance in it. It has all the beats that you love in these movies. If you love these movies, which I do, and I just highly, highly recommend it. It's written by a woman. Produced, it's got a giant female, lots and lots of women working on it. The crew, and it's written by Olivia Wilde who's, you know, awesome talented. Jason Sudeikis, is in it.

Jennifer Prokop 1:00:30 / #
Hmm, that sounds so good.

Sarah MacLean 1:00:31 / #
So is Lisa Kudrow.

Well, it's summertime it's time for me to get my movie on so I'm here for it.

If you like a high school movie. But you teach high school you well you teach junior high.

I don't. I teach middle school but you know, my son is in high school and I am always telling him, "Just enjoy high school. Stop fucking falling for this crazy idea that your life will only matters."

I want you to watch it with him and then tell me what he thinks.

Jennifer Prokop 1:00:58 / #
I will report back to you.

Sarah MacLean 1:00:59 / #
Yeah, I want to know what real kids - kids on the street - feel. But I really loved it.

Kids on the street are still in bed at 11:30 / # in the morning, fine.

That's a great life.

Jennifer Prokop 1:01:10 / #
It seriously is.

Sarah MacLean 1:01:11 / #
It really is. I would be in bed if I didn't have you know, kids and a dog. And a husband.

Jennifer Prokop 1:01:18 / #
Self-inflicted!

Sarah MacLean 1:01:22 / #
All right, my love's. This was Fated Mates. Don't forget to subscribe, like and subscribe in your favorite podcasting app. Find us on Twitter at Fated Mates. Find us on Instagram at Fated Mates pod. Check out the show notes because Jen is amazing and does beautiful show notes. There will be cover images this year.

Jennifer Prokop 1:01:42 / #
Yeah. Oh yeah. Just a quick reminder everybody that the Moon and Mars are two different places. Have fun in space.

Sarah MacLean 1:02:31 / #
Well masturbating will help for a little bit, but ultimately, you gotta have sex.

Jennifer Prokop 1:02:37 / #
It does not have to be P in V.

Movie Dialogue 1:03:29 / #
Waiter all have with she's having only less pepper

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12.5: Small Town Romance

Small towns! Jen (Chicago) and Sarah (NYC) do not understand them IRL, but we are talking about them in fiction this week! Listen to us talk about their genesis, what they represent, and why Romancelandia can’t get enough of them. Books by Sierra Simone, Vanessa North & Alisha Rai!

Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, please leave us a like or a review. Also — if you have a romance loving friend, please let them know that we don’t just talk about vampires & valkyries, and maybe they’d like us, too?

In fact — In two weeks, we’re not talking about vampires at all! (Except we kind of are) The Game Makers series read-along begins with Kresley’s first contemporary, The Professional. Get ready for Wroth Brother fanfic that Kresley herself refers to as “way sexier” then IAD. Get The Professional at Amazon, B&N, Apple Books, Kobo, or from your local Indie.

Show Notes

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11.5: Sports Romance with Jenny Nordbak

Are you a sports ball fan?! Do we have romances for you! We’ve got the brilliant Jenny Nordbak from The Wicked Wallflowers podcast back for a sports romance interstitial! Listen to us chat about why we love sports books, the alpha, competence porn and books by Kennedy Ryan, Tamsen Parker, and Naima Simone!

Next week, it’s (FOR REAL THIS TIME) MacRieve week with Sierra Simone! We’re so excited, and Sierra is the perfect guest for this sex-driven book! Get MacRieve at Amazon, B&N, Apple Books, Kobo, or from your local Indie.

Show Notes

Welcome back to our guest Jenny Nordbak from the Wicked Wallflowers podcast!

Everyone loves a trip to the hairdresser.

Here's a list of the RITA finalists, and a link to Jen's new twitter account which tracks her reviews of the finalists.

Author Bronwen Fleetwood crunched a bunch of RITA data from the past 20 years, which is how we know there are more winners named Susan (and Elizabeth, Barbara, Karen, Jennifer, Ann, Jill, Linda...) than WoC finalists.

Famously, the Hugo Awards also struggled with recognizing the best books in their field.

Here's what we are talking about when we talk about how PoC are underrepresented in publishing.

Um, actully Sarah, Ulysses is a twitter thread.

This week, Sarah told a pretty solid competence porn story about her neurosurgeon on Twitter.

Kennedy Ryan has been on the Wicked Wallflowers podcast. Twice.

Content warnings for Long Shot.

Adriana Herrera, author and friend of the Pod, recently wrote a very important piece for the Smart Bitches about how to portray sexual assualt in romance.

Why the Ray Rice elevator video is important.

Jen's written about the whiteness of hockey romances for The Book Queen. Don't believe Jen? Back in 2012, commenter #11 left a plea for more hockey romances on this Smart Bitches post. I bet they are happy now.

Susan Elizabeth Phillip's Chicago Stars series is a romance classic.

There's no crying in baseball.

Jen reviewed all of Tamsen Parker's Snow and Ice Games series.

Olympics atheletes are busy, y'all.

6 Degrees of Kevin Bacon was an amusing 90s pop culture game.

Tennyson is a romance heroine and a famous poet.

Listen to Naima's interview on the Wicked Wallflowers.

Fumbled is a new football romance by Alexa Martin, and it deals with CTE.

Get ready for MacRieve.

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10.5: Fake Engagement Romance

This one has to be a top-ten universal trope…were talking fake engagements! Listen to us chat about why ladies love a fantasy, the royal wedding, marriages of convenience, and books by Elle Kennedy, Talia Hibbert, Chelsea M. Cameron and Kate Clayborn!

GIRD THY LOINS, LOTHAIRE IS NEXT!

A jumbo episode with this jumbo jerk face dreamboat! Get Lothaire at Amazon, B&N, Apple Books, Kobo, or from your local Indie…and if you’re an audio lover, you are not going to want to miss Robert Petkoff on this one — Jen hearts it baaad.


Show Notes

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9.5: Food Romance

This week, Adriana Herrera joins us again to talk food romances and Sarah is very excited. Adriana’s debut food romance, American Dreamer, is on shelves now. We talk about the book, the pull of the food romance novel, and why nourishment is sexy. Also, Sarah basically name checks her whole favorites shelf.

Next week, it’s full Torture Island with what is probably the most controversial of the IAD books—Dreams of a Dark Warrior. Declan Chase—torturer extraordinaire is our hero, Regin the Radiant is the woman he’s been trying to love for a millennium, and we’re full bananas in the lead up to Lothaire! Get ready! Get DoaDW at Amazon, B&N, Apple Books, Kobo, or from your local Indie. Don’t forget that the Audible versions of IAD are on sale right now -- and WORTH EVERY PENNY! Listen on Audio!

Show Notes

Welcome back Adriana, and if you didn't hear her on our Wicked Deeds on a Winter's Night episode, you should check it out.

The concept of love languages comes from 1995 self-help book The Five Love Languages, by Gary Chapman. It's a little soft for us. We prefer this additional list of love languages, from McSweeney's.

Adriana talked about her grandmother bringing a pot of Sancocho from the DR to family in New York, and here's a twitter thread where Adriana makes a pot with a friend.

American Dreamer came out at the beginning of the month, and the sequel American Fairytale comes out in April. Find American Dreamer at Amazon, B&N, Apple Books or Kobo.

The dull thuds you're hearing in this episode are Sarah's phone falling off her desk. She is convinced her phone is defective because it falls off flat surfaces every day. She has fantasies of finding Jony Ive's phone number and texting him lists of everything it falls off every day.

Next time you're in Brooklyn, you should visit the Smorgasburg.

Find a Michelin star restaurant to try if you're so inclined.

Just kidding about the Soylent Green thing. Really.

Jen interviewed Mia Hopkins last year when Thirsty came out.

The song Jude was singing was Latinoamerica by Calle 13. You, too, can find great music on NPR.

A romance has to have an HEA or HFN, but a love story doesn't. Don't at us.

An interesting think piece from The Common Reader about how we view competence in men and women.

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8.5: Gateways to Romance

You’re new to romance, where should you begin?! This week, Jen and Sarah are talking about good gateway romances, and we’ve got four that we think work for readers who’ve never dipped a toe, but are open to things from dukes to magic, the America West to kinky London and everything in between.

Next week, it’s Jen’s favorite IAD book, Demon from the Dark! Malkom Slaine is a demon living alone on another plane…until witch Carrow Graie comes to fetch him. Get DFTD at Amazon, B&N, Apple Books, Kobo, or from your local Indie. Don’t forget that the Audible versions of IAD are on sale right now -- and WORTH EVERY PENNY! Listen on Audio!

Show Notes

Next week, it's Demon from the Dark since we already talked about Pleasure of a Dark Prince!

Derek Craven is our favorite and since it's our podcast, we don't have to listen to anyone talk about St. Vincent.

A librarian who excels at reader's advisory is a wonderful thing to have in your life.

Check out Jen's website for targeted romance recommendations.

John Warner is the biblioracle, and he's an amazing advocate for educators and the teaching of writing. He's also one of the key players in The Morning News Tournament of Books, which is literary blood sport par excellence.

An explainer about American-style universtiy course numbering. Jaime Green is the New York Times romance reviewer and we love her.

One of the most hilarious twitter accounts is all about the smells of romance.

The Georgette Heyer chronotope and its limits explained.

If you are interested in knowing the "beat for beat" way a romance is built, you should check out this book by Gwen Hayes.

The ton, the modiste, and Bond Street.

Everyone loves a read-alike, but the problem is finding them.

The Governess and rake tropes are beloved by romance readers, and Tessa Dare's The Governess Game is an excellent example of the trope in action.

Lol, you can't fool Jen. She is absolutely not googling "sex swing."

Hillary Clinton said some things about romance novels, and Romancelandia wasn't having it.

NPR's Codeswitch wrote about Passing in America.

Sarah isn't the only one who learned about history from romance novels.

Jen described her angst vs. stakes theory in this post.

Alexander Chee is a delight, but Jen hated A Little Life more than any other book she's ever read, so just enjoy this Nicole Cliffe thread where a million people dunk on it.

The Sex House for sale in PA was the best 2019 story. Don't believe us? Read this interview with the realtor.

Epistolary novels are interesting; but Jen, Melinda, and Kat talked in this review about Thrall by Roan Parrish & Avon Gale and whether or not epistolary novels work in the age of the internet. (Edited by Sarah to add: Epistolary novels are the tits and anyone who says otherwise is F- wrong.)

The bass line in question.

Jen and Sarah really hate cliffhangers.

Andrew and Illona Gordon are a husband and wife writing team and Jen would probably read anything they wrote (as long as there were no cliffhangers.)

Tom Hardy as Mad Max and fancast as Derek Craven, Mad Rogan, Rune, etc.

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7.5: Scotland Historical Romances

It’s Scotland week, Lads and Lassies! We’re talking about the great green jewel to the north of England, where the ladies are bold and the lairds are brawn, and we're all just wishing we could get wrapped in a plaid and cuddled through a cold Highland night.

Next week, we’re back with the Lykae with Pleasure of a Dark Prince—starring the FULLY DREAMY Garreth MacRieve and Lucia the Huntress, who just might be our favorite heroine yet. We’ll be talking wolf holograms, how Kresley is blowing the doors off the IAD world, and we’ll be starting Lothaire Watch!

Get ready for the PoaDP read along at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books or your local indie. Also, the Audible versions of IAD are on sale right now -- and WORTH EVERY PENNY! Listen on Audio!

Show Notes

Here's the twitter thread where Lillie talked about imprinting on Julie Garwood.

The Heaving Bosoms podcast is pretty great, and although this episode about Mastered by Her Mates by Grace Goodwin is not set during Highlander Times, it's profoundly hilarious.

Some brief explainers about why old paperbacks have dyed edges, but according to Sarah's research, the more popular an author, the more likely it was the pages would be dyed.

All about kilts. Also, it's never too late for a calendar of men it kilts.

Dirks and broadswords, oh my!

Goodreads has a few lists of Broken marriage romances, but Jen recommends Cherish Me by Farrah Rochan.

Here's a google folder with screenshots of the entries for cunt, cunny, pussy, quim, shit, and fuck from the Oxford English Dictionary. Jen mentioned a book called Cunt: A Declaration of Independence, but it's kind of Terf-y, so she does not recommend it.

Sarah does talk about the etymology of swear words a lot on Twitter, becuase fuck just isn't a new word. Don't @ us.

If you want to learn more about the etymology of swear words, Melissa Mohr's Holy Shit: A Brief History of Swearing is the book for you.

A thread about vaginas by friend of the pod S.S. Jaxon.

You definitely want to see the flying fuck image and read Jen's column called Who Did it Better on a Horse.

Lyrics to a song from 1657 that uses some very choice dirty words. Maybe you prefer to listen?

The Hangover is a 2009 comedy, so who knows if it's held up over time.

Sarah, Sophie Jordan, and a bunch of other amazing authors will be at Avon's KissCon in early April. Jen will be there as an attendee, and we'll definitely have some sort of Fated Mates meet-up!

Jen said she texted Sophie, but that's not true. She tweeted at her.

Katy Budget Books has a super-amazing romance section and if you want to order signed copies of Sophie Jordan's upcoming book, you should contact them.

Next week, we return to IAD with Garreth and Lucia in Pleasure of a Dark Prince.

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6.5: Freewheeling with Joanna Shupe: Enemies to Lovers Romance

This week, we’re having a fun, far-reaching conversation with the wonderful Joanna Shupe—who loves Kiss of a Demon King a whole lot, immediately saw the echoes of one of the most famous old school romances inside it, and came to talk to us about enemies to lovers romances, but ended up telling us all about that time she spent a lot of time researching penetrative sex in carriages. We had a great time, and hope you do, too!

Our next read-along episode will tackle the final two Wroth brothers with the two IAD novellas, The Warlord Wants Forever (Nikolai) & Untouchable (Murdoch), available in the Deep Kiss of Winter anthology! This will be the last time we tackle vampires until Lothaire, so get your fill!

A Note: There are two version of The Warlord Wants Forever — you want the most recent version.

Show Notes

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5.5: Road Trip Romances

We’ve got Doritos, a stack of Cosmo sex quizzes and an epic mixtape ready to go — Sarah and Jen are talking about road trips and the inevitable smooching that comes with them in romance!

Next week, we’re back to the Rage Demonarchy Duology with Kiss of A Demon King — where we get the full wrap up of the plot of the second in the duology, and the wrap up of the plot of Dark Desires After Dusk. We’ve seen Rydstrom total his McLaren and get abducted by Sabine, who is not only Queen of Illusions but also his Fated Mate and he’s not feeling great about this at all (Spoiler: We feel very great about this.) We’ll be joined by the fabulous Jenny Nordbak from The Wicked Wallflowers podcast for part of the conversation, and it will be a longer episode than usual because of that!

Get ready for the KoaDK read along at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books or your local indie. Also, the Audible versions of IAD are on sale right now -- and WORTH EVERY PENNY! Listen on Audio!

Show Notes

Texas is very big, everyone.

Here's some interesting facts about Starbucks.

Jen had no idea how posting horses worked until Elisabeth Lane asked on Twitter. (Sarah knew.)

Looking for books with carriage sex? Twitter has recs for you.

Learn more about the Gilded Age in America.

New York's Grand Central Station is absolutely magical.

Hildene, a museum of Lincoln's family home, has a full-scale reproduction of an amazing private rail car...It's amazing how someone on Twitter will always know the good things.

All about bustles.

Trading Places is a 1983 comedy with Eddie Murphy and Dan Ackroyd, and the blog Obscure Train Movies has an extensive break down of the train scenes from the movie.

The Ani Difranco poem Sarah mentioned is called Self-Evident.

Buy yourself a set of butterfly swords for $500. JK. That's probably a really bad idea.

Here's an overview of the Tang Dynasty, and its capital Chang'an.

If you haven't seen Mad Max Fury Road you should probably drop everything and take care of it.

In case you were wondering what the world looked like in 750, Time Maps has you covered.

Here's a list of rich heroines/poor heroes from goodreads.

A quick summary of Pygmalion, and if you happen to be in New York City, you can go see My Fair Lady at Lincoln Center.

Sarah talks about Tom Hardy a lot on Twitter. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Apparently, it is Low and High Fantasy, and Reddit talked about the differences between them.

There's a Slurpee twitter account, which shouldn't really surprise anyone if you think about it.

Whoops, it's my Mom.

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4.5: Curvy Heroines in Romance

Happy New Year, Fated Matesers (This isn’t a great name for us. We need a better name—someone name us)! We’re back, it’s 2019, new year, new us, and we’re starting as we mean to go on with Curvy Heroines, because, in the words of Julie Murphy, Every Body is a Swimsuit Body. Jen and I love a curvy heroine, and the men who love them, and so curvy romances are OUR FAVES.

Next week, we’re getting into Demons! We’ve met Cade, the prince of Rothkalina (the Rage Demonarchy) and his brother Rydstrom, its deposed King, before — they were in the Talisman’s Hie, and in Néomi & Conrad’s book. Next week, we tackle Cade & Holly’s story, Dark Desires After Dusk, with Rydstrom & Sabine’s book Kiss of a Demon King two weeks later. We highly recommend reading these two close together!

UPDATE 1/20/21 - We did it again! Don’t miss a brand new set of recommendations in S03.23 - Curvy Heroines Redux!

Show Notes

- In the summer of 2018, Jen and a bunch of people on Twitter discussed Nine Rules to Break While Romancing a Rake using the hashtag #9RulesRake.

- Sarah also has a curvy heroine romance that is coming in July! Brazen & the Beast has a gorgeous curvy heroine on the cover.

- Just a reminder that Jenny Crusie is completely awesome, and Bet Me is an amazing book.

- Courtney Milan has lots to say about romance. All of her books are amazing, but we talked about The Heiress Effect.

- Never Sweeter by Charlotte Stein was awareded the platinum medal in Jen's "Who Did It Better in the Library" post.

- Romancelandia often recommends books with curvy and fat heroines, and there are quite a few thoughtful pieces about how we think aobut these characters our ourselves.

- Naima Simone writes very excellent books and Jen & Sarah want this one right now.

- Olivia Dade is an advocate for fat women in romance, and Jen and Sarah both loved this thread and want to read books about all these heroines.

- Check out the full transcript for this episode.

TRANSCRIPT

Sarah MacLean 0:00
Okay, okay. Hi. You're listening to Fated Mates. This is Curvy Heroines Week.

Jen Prokop 0:07
I'm Jen Prokop, otherwise known as @JenReadsRomance and my fearless companion...

Sarah MacLean 0:13
Sarah MacLean. I like to write books, and I like to read books about curvy heroines. I like to write books about curvy heroines, too. I'm writing one right now, actually.

Jen Prokop 0:23
You've written many a great book about curvy heroines. And if you haven't read Nine Rules to Break When Romancing a Rake, you can start there.

Sarah MacLean 0:32
That's really nice.

Jen Prokop 0:34
I have, you know, I'll put in the show notes. The picture I gave it to my friend Elizabeth to read and she put it back on my desk at work, with a post-it note on it and it just said, "delicious".

Sarah MacLean 0:46
Oh, that's so, thank you, Elizabeth. That's very kind. But we're not talking about my book this week. That's all. That's the Sarah part of the show.

Jen Prokop 0:55
Yes.

Sarah MacLean 0:56
Jen. Why do we like curvy heroines so much?

Jen Prokop 1:01
Cuz I am a curvy heroine.

Sarah MacLean 1:03
Yeah, me too.

But besides just wanting to see yourself on the page, which is a valid reason.

Jen Prokop 1:09
Okay, so here's what it is for me, it's always back to who deserves and HEA, and I think there are so many ways in which our media celebrates beautiful women. And I like to see that all women are beautiful. All women deserve love. And that's it. I say that to people, I say this to my students all the time. You're going to fall in love one day and the person you fall in love with is going to be beautiful to you. And I think that books with curvy heroines, I don't know they just really hit that mark for me and we talked about your book but the other book that did it first and did it best for me was Bet Me.

Sarah MacLean 1:47
Jenny Crusie.

Jen Prokop 1:49
When I read that book the first time I just thought, I don't know, it just really it felt revelatory, and so talking about books with curvy heroines i think is near and dear to our heart. So you tell me why you think it's important.

Sarah MacLean 2:03
Well, I think you just sort of hit the nail on the head. I actually think that the best thing about curvy heroine romances is that they tend to hold a mirror up to all women and maybe just humans in general, but this sort of sense that even at our most flawed, even when we sort of look at ourselves and say, and see, we see all the parts of us that are wonky, somebody who loves us, just sees the most perfect person and the most beautiful parts of us. And that is a joy to read. And it's a joy to experience in life when you're with your friends or your loved ones. And that's why I love, that's why I love these books, but actually you bring up the Jenny Crusie's Bet Me makes me think like is it possible Bet Me was the first one because prior to Jenny, I mean, in the early days of romance, heroines were perfect. Like really, really perfect. Like every book had a knight hero who could span the heroines waist with his hands,

Jen Prokop 3:05
Right. His manly hand.

Sarah MacLean 3:07
I think I think Jenny might have been the first one. I'm going to do some research and figure that out. And we'll put it in show notes if we find something earlier than that, but could be.

Jen Prokop 3:16
Yeah, and maybe, maybe that's why but I mean, I read that book and remember thinking it changed me like something fundamentally changed in me when I read that.

Sarah MacLean 3:24
Well, do you think it was just that suddenly like romance heroines could be something else, could be more, different, better...

It just opened up a door and I think it opened up a door in my own brain too.

Sure. All right, you start.

Jen Prokop 3:36
okay. I'm going to start actually because I really liked what you said about like a curvy heroine, right, we see her through her own eyes, but also through society's eyes. And a book that I think plays with this brilliantly, is called The Heiress Effect by Courtney Milan. It's a historical, it's part of the Brothers Sinister series. And that's book number two, if you could read it as a stand-alone and I think this book is amazing. I don't know if you've read it, but I loved it.

I think this heroine, her name is Jane, is essentially using the way society views her as a weapon to fool society itself. I don't know that I've ever read anything like it. And so it is profoundly feminist. There's this really amazing scene at the beginning where she describes them trying to, like make her waist many inches smaller than it is by like using corsets. And I like flinched as I read it, but then she actually wears like really outrageous outlandish clothes and she does it, like she realizes they don't think she's beautiful, that they mock her, and that she's going to use that against them to essentially like escape their notice because she has a huge dowry of 100,000 pounds, and she does not want to get married. And so she is playing this game where she's using their perception of them as a way essentially of making herself, like she's it's like at one point the hero realizes she's essentially acting like a butterfly right like she's beautiful and wearing bright colors and it but it's poisonous. And I just think this book, along with having this amazing curvy heroine, one of the smartest heroines, this amazing hero, the cast of characters, the social justice aspect of it. The hero sister. Her name is her name is free. She's like vote fighting for voting rights and the whole book is just from top to bottom, just a real treat. And so the other thing I liked about it is it Jane is clearly a curvy heroine and a Oliver loves her. It's the kind of woman he likes, but it's not the most important thing about who she is. And we and Oliver come and she herself come to see that about her about her.

Sarah MacLean 5:50
Courtney, if you've never read a book by Courtney, this is a really good place to start actually, Courtney does so many things beautifully, but the thing that always comes back to me with Courtney's books. The heroes are always so incredibly Noble.

Jen Prokop 6:04
Oh, yeah.

Sarah MacLean 6:05
They act with such strong conviction. And they know what's right. Capital r. They will do everything to make sure that they behave in that way. But they move the world they moved the needle toward that.

Jen Prokop 6:20
Oh, it's so good. Well, and I'll tell you what the other thing about this is this is a book that we've talked about, like the setup, right? Like so Courtney like sets up this whole thing where essentially the hero is supposed to take her down, and I sort of thought, Oh, hi know where this is going. I did not know where it was going at all. And it was like their struggle to be the best versions of themselves, both for themselves, and for each other. This book is perfect. I loved it.

Sarah MacLean 6:49
You should read a book by Courtney Milan.

Jen Prokop 6:51
Absolutely. What about you, Sarah?

Sarah MacLean 6:54
I'm going to talk about a different kind of hero. A very, very different kind of hero, who is not, does not move toward an nobility instantly. So I want to talk about Charlotte Stein. I want to talk about Charlotte Stein basically every day.

Jen Prokop 7:11
All day.

Sarah MacLean 7:12
All the time. If you've never read a book by Charlotte, you absolutely need to rectify that

Jen Prokop 7:16
and probably clear an entire day of your schedule because once you start you will not be able to stop

Sarah MacLean 7:23
you will just buy every Charlotte sign book one after another, and it will just you'll lose your day to great delicious joy. Because the best way for me to describe how Charlottewrites a book is It's like watching two people fall in love inside a phone booth while you're in it with them.

Jen Prokop 7:42
Oh my god, that's so perfect.

Sarah MacLean 7:44
And you're just like, it's too much. It's too much to watch and I feel weird about watching it but I can't stop like it's just

Jen Prokop 7:53
right.

Sarah MacLean 7:53
You're just in there. And these two deeply imperfect people Charlotte has never written a perfect character. I think in any of her books.

Jen Prokop 8:01
but she might be a perfect writer

Sarah MacLean 8:02
For sure. I think Charlotte is one of the very best writers writing today. She's such a writer's writer. I feel like every writer I speak to acknowledges we all just wish we could write like Charlotte.

Jen Prokop 8:14
It must be intimidating. I've actually I'm like, I just get to read it and be like, this is amazing. I can't even imagine like imposter syndrome must take over all of you when you read her book.

Sarah MacLean 8:23
Anytime I read a book by Charlotte, I end up thinking to myself, like, well, there goes three weeks of me sitting around feeling bad about myself.

Jen Prokop 8:34
But I want it I don't I mean, anyway, so I can't say enough good things, obviously, about Charlotte. But this book is called Never Sweeter. And you guys,

I know I just like fell over. It's so good.

Sarah MacLean 8:46
All right, I'm gonna I'm gonna do the setup. And you're gonna go Oh, Sarah, I don't know. So the premise is, it's setting College and the heroine who is very curvy in high school was relentlessly bullied by a group of boys to the point where she is run off the road and down a pretty dangerous cliff by these boys who are who are torturing her with bullying, and there's no good reason why she's just like all bully, there's no good reason why. And she's run off the road. And that's the beginning of the book. And then immediately we cut to her in college, and she goes into a class and sitting inside in the class is one of her bullies. And he is there to make amends. She's horrified. She's terrified. She's all the emotions that you would be. She wants away from him. She wants out of this, this entire world. But he is there and he's in college with her and he wants to apologize. He wants to make it right. And they fall in love. And it is

Jen Prokop 10:05
it's amazing.

Sarah MacLean 10:06
So incredible, because the whole time in your head you're thinking, no, absolutely not. This is not acceptable. And the whole time. I mean, Charlotte just writes this hero who just is working so hard to rectify the past. And this heroine who just is so strong because she's so able to tell him "no", and she's still able to resist it until she realizes that maybe there is something more than resistance. And I don't know I think I'm doing a bad job describing it but I think it's

Jen Prokop 10:44
No you're not

Sarah MacLean 10:45
so beautiful.

I read a book a day, right? I mean, I've read 10,000 that's not an exaggeration, romance novels in my lifetime. And I think it is rare that you can come across a book where you just you can't see how the writer is going to finish it. The whole time you're doubting that it's even possible to do it to pull it off and then somehow Charlotte just does and it's beautiful. It's one of the most beautiful romances I think ever written.

Jen Prokop 11:16
I think so too and I think that the curvy heroine part I would say, it's really essential to Lenny's character I think because like when they talk right when they become friends first is that he says I didn't want you going through the world thinking that everyone was going to treat you that way. And I think it's like metaphorically it's some level to like how fat people are treated in the world. Right like we're we're sort of like look away and and I think there's something really beautiful about his love for her is so pure and again, it's like that same thing we talked about when you talked about escort books, right? Everyone deserves love, like your physical package should have nothing to do with like whether or not you are deserving of someone loving you profoundly and deeply and I think this book at every single, every single layer does that so well. That's amazing.

Okay, so my final one is way lighter, a jaunt really but we know we have to come right out of the deep well that Never Sweeter will will put you in and all of Charlotte's books really but I love a book like really love in a way like I don't know every single bell rings on my belt. It's called Playing It Cool by Amy Andrews and it's a part of a whole series all the like playing at whatever books are part of a series about Sydney rugby team, which I know nothing about rugby, but I've really liked all these books and the main character is a guy named Dexter and it actually starts off with him. And all of his like sort of buddies on his rugby team are basically like, hey, there's your kind of girl on the sidelines, because she's like a bigger curvier woman and her...her name is Harper and...

Sarah MacLean 12:58
can I just interrupt and say Love that moment in this book we're like you're not because we have talked a lot about curvy heroines who are feel uncomfortable in their skin and you know, God knows that's real but there's something remarkable when in the first moment of the book like a huge an entire rugby team is like that one

Jen Prokop 13:19
that Yeah, like there's your kind of girl and I remember being like but wait like I literally I think I went back and reread it like wait a minute, is that what I think it means that they all know that he he likes curvy women and they see one and they're like, there she is the one for you. I love this book was really great and, and what happens is they end up dating they end up like falling in love but because he is so fixated on rugby, like his sort of like you know, I only have this short I'm a professional athlete and my time on this team is going to be short so I don't really have time for like serious like a serious girlfriend like that's just going to mess me up. They sort of have this like low key like where she starts thinking that he's keeping her under wraps. And she's like, Is it because of the way I look? And he's like, no, it's because I really just wanted to focus on rugby. And you know, there's this amazing scene though, at the end. And I think this is also part of why I love this book. I don't think it's super spoilery where she goes to it, they go to a benefit, and they go separately, and she is dressed in this like knockout dress. And every man in the room can see how beautiful she is. And it is killing Dexter because he knows like, you know, he's like, everyone now sees what I've seen all along. And I just this book, like really worked for me at every level. I think, you know, the camaraderie between Dexter and his team. The affair between the two of them per work is like a muralist and her insistence that she deserves to have someone who loves her. Absolutely, and she doesn't need to be second best to anybody's job. I don't care if it's rugby or not. Basically and she I just love this book. I loved everything about it.

Sarah MacLean 15:03
Yeah, it's a great read.

Jen Prokop 15:05
And it's like, it's like a fun read, right? Like, it's not really serious, you know, but I just think it's like a great fun read with like, here's a curvy heroine who is like, I deserve more. And hero has to be like, Yes, you're right, dear. What do you need for me?

Sarah MacLean 15:17
Also, I think sports heroes in that moment are pretty great. Like the dichotomy between like the super sporty like celebrity hero and the normal girl who you know,

Jen Prokop 15:30
right

Sarah MacLean 15:30
looks like a normal person is really delicious. Always. That's why books like the wall of winning pegan me work so well. You know, because there is that sort of literal body perfection versus just ordinary everyday.

Jen Prokop 15:44
Right. And I one of the things I love is the authors who make space for women to feel the way they feel about their bodies and to know they deserve love and that they're going to get it right that romance is going to deliver that to them. That's really essential and important to me.

Sarah MacLean 16:00
So, my last book is kind of an older title. It is the first Bela Andre book I ever read. It's called take me and fun fact. I loved this book so much that I then went to the RWA national conference. And I like stalked Bella into and forced her to be my friend. And now we are friends. But I love take me so much. This is the same kind of I mean, you you guys are going to get a real sense of the kind of heroine curvy heroine I look for but the heroine of this book has been best friends with one half of a set of like ridiculously attractive twins for her whole life. Since they were four or five years old, and her best friend has always been her best friend and his twin brother has always been sort of aloof and not really present in her life and not really showing much interest in her, and she of course has had like this crazy unrequited crush on him forever. And I love an unrequited love story. I love unrequited love. Yeah, it's good. And so essentially what happens is she suddenly like so he's, you know, a millionaire. This was in the ages of millionaires, you guys, this predates billionaire,

Jen Prokop 17:23
Do better.

Sarah MacLean 17:25
And he's this sort of like Star millionaire, amazing, you know, all around person. And they end up but she's an interior decorator and he's a he's a developer, real estate guy. And he takes her he hires her basically to help decorate a client's house. And it becomes really clear, really quickly. I think early in the book, there's like a drinking mishap and then there's like an almost sex moment and then becomes very clear very quickly that like he's had feelings for her for a long time. And he ends up flying her to Italy to like shop for stuff for...

Jen Prokop 18:11
For his like mansion or whatever.

Sarah MacLean 18:14
Yeah, and so they fly to Tuscany and they have this like incredible weekend Tuscany and she the whole time she's like at some point the other shoe is gonna drop in this like fantasy that I have fallen into with this guy who I've been in love with for my whole life. It's just going to fall apart because he's never dated anybody who isn't like size double zero. And then she sort of sabotages it just by virtue of not believing in herself, and it's so real, like it's so painfully real because he's like, I can't convince you of what I see. And until you're able to see what I see, I don't know how to be with you. I don't know how to make this work and it is real honest. And you know, I think this is the thing that a lot of people do like we naturally as humans sabotage relationships because of lots of reasons and this is it just felt so authentic and I still to this day I love bellus books so much so many of them I love but this one still to me is like the perfect Bella Andre book.

Jen Prokop 19:17
Well and I think that's the other thing that any imperfection that any character has to deal with but especially body image issues really are about self acceptance and I think that's why it's it's not enough for your romantic partner to accept you the good books the best books are then about "I accept myself" and I think that's why they really like hit you right in the heart because all of us are working on ourselves. And and i think that all books have characters working on themselves, but somehow this struggle, really, maybe it just speaks to me personally, but when it's good, it's it's a book I just really love and they stay in rotation. And I've read and read read them and have them in multiple formats. And that's when I know it's like a real keeper for me.

Sarah MacLean 20:07
Yeah. So shout out your favorite curvy heroines. Tell us on twitter hashtag #fatedmatespod. Don't forget that if you'd like us to tackle a trope for you, you should let us know. And we will do with pleasure.

Jen Prokop 20:22
So, if you are enjoying our podcast, we would love for you to subscribe to it. Give us a rating and share it with your friends online on Facebook, on Twitter, in the coffee shop wherever you might be talking about your favorite podcast.

Sarah MacLean 20:38
Okay, everyone, well, that was curvy girls. If you are a writer out there thinking about writing a curvy romance, please do. We need more of them. I saw Naima Simone tweeted about one a couple of days ago and I'm super excited for that one. Naima, write faster.

Next week. We are back to IAD and we are on book number five. And the demons are coming you guys I'm so excited. The first book is Dark Desires After Dusk, which is Cade & Holly's book as you know we've met Cade and rods from his deposed King or dethroned King. I don't know. I don't know what the word is will sort it out before that episode. But we've met him twice. He was part of the Hie with Bowen and Mari, and he is a pretty significant piece of this Neomi and Conrad book, The Neomi and Conrad book, which we did last week. So we've got Cade and Holly up first. It's a road trip romance, and it's one that we have a lot to say about. But here's what I'm going to say because now we've finished recording both Cade and Rydstom's books.

And Jen and I think that you should probably read them both back to back if you can. If you have the time, because Rydstrom and Sabine's book, which is Kiss of a Demon King, and Cade & Holly's book, which is--what did I just say?--Dark Desires After Dusk--work in concert with each other. They're overlapping for quite a bit of time. And I think that once you've read both, both books get better.

So we are back next week with Cade and Holly's book and they still intend to release Rydstrom & Sabine's episode in two weeks after that. So there's plenty of time for your reading in order. Real life real time IAD readers were reading them six or eight months apart, so you'll be fine. We just think that you might like it better if you read them both back to back. And we have a lot to say about both of these books and there's a whole lot of conversation coming about horns and we have a special guest for Sabine and Rydstrom's book who's got a great story, and you're going to love it.

So yay! Thanks for joining us again for Fated Mates. We're super excited to have you always. If you are enjoying the podcast, don't forget to subscribe and like and review and tell your friends. Tell your mom or whoever else you would like to tell about us.

Thanks so much, guys.

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guest host, mini-episodes, romance recommendations, S01 - Interstitials Sarah MacLean guest host, mini-episodes, romance recommendations, S01 - Interstitials Sarah MacLean

2.5: Brother's Best Friend Romances

Next week we’re going to get into Werewolves and Witches with Wicked Deeds on a Winter’s Night, but this week, we’re so excited to talk best friend’s sibling/sibling’s best friend romances with one of our favorite people: Kate Clayborn!

Show Notes

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romance recommendations, interstitial, S01 - Interstitials Sarah MacLean romance recommendations, interstitial, S01 - Interstitials Sarah MacLean

1.5: Escort Romances

We know you’re getting excited for No Rest for the Wicked, but before we talk about vampires and Valkyries, let’s talk about escort romances!

Show Notes

Sarah and Jen have both loved The Kiss Quotient. Sarah reviewed at for The Washington Post. Jen's been turning her friend Ernie into an occasional romance reader, and live-tweeted his read of TQK.

Escorted by Claire Kent, which is a pen name of Noelle Adams

Virginity is a construct

Romancing the Stone is an 80s movie classic. Kathleen Turner plays a romance writer on an adventure to retreive a missing emerald.

Curio and the Curio Vignettes by Cara McKenna

The Smart Bitches made a list of competence porn romances, where all the characters are just really good at their jobs.

Suddenly You by Lisa Kleypas. Here's the Twitter thread where Jenny Nordbak alerts everyone to the sexiness factor.

The Companion Contract by Solace Ames

Burn Down the Night by Molly O'Keefe

The Duke by Gaelen Foley

Claiming the Courtesan by Anna Campbell

Journalist Melissa Gira Grant writes about sex workers and the politics of sex work. You should follow her on Twitter.

The Master by Kresley Cole

Get ready for No Rest for the Wicked

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mini-episodes, romance recommendations, S01 - Interstitials Sarah MacLean mini-episodes, romance recommendations, S01 - Interstitials Sarah MacLean

.5: Rock Star Romance

While you're reading A Hunger Like No Other, we're bringing you off-week romance recommendations, on themes! Join us this week for Rock Star Romances.

Kristen Callihan

Kylie Scott

  • Lick (Stage Dive Series #1)

  • Play (Stage Dive Series #2)

  • Lead (Stage Dive Series #3)

  • Deep (Stage Dive Series #4)

Anna Zabo

JN Welsh

The book that made Sarah a Rock Star Romance reader, Erika Kelly’s Take Me Home Tonight

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