S05.19: Homecoming Romance with Kate Clayborn
Seven-timer Kate Clayborn returns to the Fated Mates studio (lol, jk there is no studio) to talk about about going home again in romance and to celebrate the launch of her new book, Georgie All Along, which you can get this week wherever books are sold! We talk about all the ins and outs of homecoming romances, what sends characters back to the beginning, what readers expect from these books, why they hit so hard and in so many ways, and how this trope intersects with small town romance. All that, and Sarah’s brought an X,Y chart to class.
Next week, we have an interstitial, and then it’s Derek Craven Day 2023! Our first read along of 2023 (in February) is Tracy MacNish’s Stealing Midnight—we’ve heard the calls from our gothic romance readers and we’re delivering with this truly bananas story, in which the hero is dug out of a grave and delivered, barely alive, to the heroine. Get ready. You can find Stealing Midnight (for $1.99!) at Amazon, B&N, Kobo, or Apple Books.
Show Notes
Welcome Kate Clayborn. Her newest release, Georgie, All Along came out yesterday. She’s been on Fated Mates so many times because we love to talk to her about romance. You can listen to them all here, but considering the time of year, might we recommend the 2021 Derek Craven Day episode?
In case you forgot what your English teacher told you about theme.
Here's Sarah's chart, as promised. Also, you can learn about all about the X and Y axis. And the Z axis. And coefficients. So mathy this week!
Books Mentioned This Episode
Sponsors
Lillian Lark, author of Deceived by the Gargoyles.
Get it at Amazon, free on Kindle Unlimited,
visit Lillian Lark at lillianlark.com
and
Love’s Sweet Arrow, a romance bookstore in Chicago
Visit lovessweetarrow.com,
and preorder upcoming romance with fun gifts!
S05.18: Harlequin Category Romance: The Romance Industrial Complex
We don’t talk enough about category romances, and that is a big mistake. This week, we’re changing that — discussing the power of the category romance, the skill it takes to write one well, and the love we have for the authors who are committed to this perfect morsel of the format. There are nuns and vikings, Italian billionaires, lady assassins and more!
Next week, we have a special guest, but our first read along of 2023 is Tracy MacNish’s Stealing Midnight—we’ve heard the calls from our gothic romance readers and we’re delivering with this truly bananas story, in which the hero is dug out of a grave and delivered, barely alive, to the heroine. Get ready. You can find Stealing Midnight (for $1.99!) at Amazon, B&N, Kobo, or Apple Books.
Show Notes
Harlequin has an entire explainer about the ins and outs of category romance.
The first romance Jen ever read was called Pink Satin, from a long-since defunct category line called Second Chance at Love.
You can support the workers in the Harper Collins Union by donating to the strike fund, or sign the letter in support of the Union. Follow @hcpunion on Twitter for more information. Here's where they confirmed that Harlequin Titles are not part of the strike requests.
I couldn’t find the romance title generator, but I did find this sporcle quiz for the most common words in Harlequin titles—it’s only up to 2012, and someone needs to update this. The word billionaire is barely on it!
The Princess Routine by Tonya Wood (1985) was a favorite of both Jen and Caitlyn Crews. And right now, Jen is freaking out a little that she can't find her copy of it!
Books Mentioned This Episode
Sponsored by:
Desirée M. Niccoli, author of Called to the Deep and Song of Lorelei
and Lumi Labs, creators of Microdose Gummies.
Visit microdose.com and use the code FATEDMATES
for 30% off and free shipping on your order.
S05.17: Catherine Coulter: Trailblazer
We’re thrilled to share our next Trailblazer episode this week—we had a great time talking with Catherine Coulter about her place in romance history as one of the earliest authors of the Signet Regency line—and the author who many believe revolutionized the Regency…by making them sexy.
She tells a million great stories here, and we talk about writing historical romance, about sex in romance, about the way she thinks about plot vs. story, about the way she’s evolved as a writer, and about revisiting her old books. All that, and Catherine has a lot to say about heroes. Thank you to Catherine Coulter for making the time for us.
Next week, we’re back with more interstitials, but our first read along of 2023 is Tracy MacNish’s Stealing Midnight—we’ve heard the calls from our gothic romance readers and we’re delivering with this truly bananas story, in which the hero is dug out of a grave and delivered, barely alive, to the heroine. Get ready. You can find Stealing Midnight (for $1.99!) at Amazon, B&N, Kobo, or Apple Books.
Show Notes
People Mentioned: publisher Peter Heggie, agent Robert Gottlieb, publisher Robert Diforio, editor Hilary Ross, editor Leslie Gelbman, publisher Phyllis Grann, editor May Chen, editor David Highfill, and marketing consultant Nicole Robson at Trident Media.
Authors Mentioned: Georgette Heyer, Rebecca Brandewyne, Janet Dailey, LaVyrle Spencer, Linda Howard, Iris Johansen, Kay Hooper, Debbie Gordon and Joan Wolf
Catherine Coulter Novels
Sponsors
Cara Dion, author of Indiscreet.
get it at Amazon, free on Kindle Unlimited,
and
Lumi Labs, creators of Microdose Gummies
Visit microdose.com and use the code FATEDMATES
for 30% off and free shipping on your order.
Catherine Coulter 00:00:00 / #: At that point in time, Signet had sort of developed as kind of the classiest of the Regency romances, and there were some other little attempts, but with Signet, even their print runs, which were considered quite healthy, then were like, for the Regency, they were like 60,000. Then on the second book, I remember having, I got the plot idea and I told Hilary, we were down in Wall Street at a restaurant and we were having lunch. I said, well, Hilary, I said, the only thing is there was no sex in Regency.
00:00:49 / #: Absolutely zippo, nada. I said, I've got a plot, Hilary, but I want sex in it. It was at that point, which rarely happens, but it was an utter lack of noise in the restaurant, and everybody was on point, and we got a good laugh out of that. I told her what I wanted to do and she grinned and she said, go for it. As a result, the print run jumped up to like 130,000.
Jennifer Prokop 00:01:26 / #: That was the voice of Catherine Coulter, author of more than 80 novels, including some of the earliest Signet Regencies. We'll talk with Catherine about her time at the beginning of the Signet Line, her work, adding sex to Signet Regencies, and how she evolved into historical romances, and then of course into her longstanding career as a thriller writer. This is Fated Mates. I'm Jennifer Prokop, a romance reader and editor.
Sarah MacLean 00:01:59 / #: I'm Sarah MacLean. I read romance novels and I write them.
Jennifer Prokop 00:02:04 / #: You're about to hear a great conversation with Catherine Coulter. We're not going to spend a whole lot more time introducing it. We'll talk more on the back end. Without further ado, here is our conversation with Catherine Coulter.
Sarah MacLean 00:02:17 / #: We try really hard not to do all the fangirling, but I have to say The Sherbrooke Bride was like the Greatest Joy of my Life when I read that book, right when it came out. I'm really very delighted to be talking to you today. Thank you so much for making time for us.
Catherine Coulter 00:02:37 / #: Well, thank you for asking me, and I'm so delighted that you like The Sherbrooke Bride. It seems to be everybody's favorite, and it's an 11 book series.
Sarah MacLean 00:02:47 / #: Well, we're going to get into why and why you think it is. We are in our fourth season of this podcast, because we really love romance novels a whole lot. Over the last year, we have been interviewing the people, many of the people who we believe built the house of romance, so to speak. Part of the reason why we're doing that, and I'm sure you've noticed this, is that romance doesn't get a whole lot of attention from the world at large.
00:03:18 / #: We feel like it's really important to collect the history of the genre as much as we possibly can. These conversations, these, what we're calling Trailblazer recordings are really conversations that are very far-reaching. We want to talk about all things you. I know that you have a book out next week, so we want to talk about that too. But hopefully, you'll give us a sense of your life through writing and through romance. But we are both really thrilled to have you.
Catherine Coulter 00:03:52 / #: Well, thank you very much. Those were lovely things to say. It's true, it's true. I'll never forget when I was started writing, "Oh yes, I'm a writer." "What do you write, children's books?" That was the most regular. Then, I think romance was next. You were almost embarrassed to say, "Well, yeah, you idiot." I want to make some money. Women are 85% of the retail market, so, excuse me.
Sarah MacLean 00:04:27 / #: Yeah.
Jennifer Prokop 00:04:27 / #: Yeah.
Catherine Coulter 00:04:27 / #: Anyway.
Sarah MacLean 00:04:28 / #: Yeah.
Catherine Coulter 00:04:29 / #: I think you guys are doing a wonderful thing and getting the history down. That's very good.
Sarah MacLean 00:04:35 / #: Catherine, can you tell us about how you started reading romance?
Catherine Coulter 00:04:42 / #: Well, my mother would read aloud to me when I was like three years old, and she read everything, everything. But my very, very favorite author is Georgette Heyer, and I believe she died in 1972. She was the one who started the Regency genre. You've read her right?
Sarah MacLean 00:05:09 / #: Yes.
Jennifer Prokop 00:05:10 / #: Yes. Yes. We know Heyer.
Catherine Coulter 00:05:11 / #: Okay. Yeah, I still think she's the class act, and I've always in teaching always say, you're allowed three exclamation points a book. Okay, that's it. She uses exclamation points after nearly every sentence.
Sarah MacLean 00:05:29 / #: Exactly.
Catherine Coulter 00:05:30 / #: But it's okay. It's the weirdest thing. She does everything that you shouldn't do, and it's wonderful, which goes to show there really are no rules.
Sarah MacLean 00:05:41 / #: Right.
Catherine Coulter 00:05:41 / #: But I don't think many people are on her level of just delight. Sheer delight. What was your favorite Georgette Heyer?
Sarah MacLean 00:05:51 / #: Well, my favorite is Devil's Cub.
Catherine Coulter 00:05:55 / #: Gotcha. That was a good one.
Sarah MacLean 00:05:57 / #: Which probably tracks very well with, you'll be unsurprised that then I really fell in love with The Sherbrooke Bride and lots of other books with similar heroes to her.
Catherine Coulter 00:06:10 / #: We call them assholes or someone we deem not all that much.
Sarah MacLean 00:06:17 / #: Yeah. Well, romance in many ways has not changed all that much. Right?
Jennifer Prokop 00:06:24 / #: What about you, Catherine? What was your favorite Heyer?
Catherine Coulter 00:06:28 / #: The Grand Sophy.
Jennifer Prokop 00:06:29 / #: Oh, of course. A classic.
Catherine Coulter 00:06:31 / #: Yeah. I just love The Grand Sophy. She was such a go-getter and Sylvester or The Wicked Uncle, talk about the classic asshole. It's wonderful.
Jennifer Prokop 00:06:43 / #: Okay, so you are reading Heyer and you're reading sort of voraciously. Tell us about your life at this point. Where are you living in the world? How do you start thinking about actually putting pen to paper?
Catherine Coulter 00:06:59 / #: Well, as you know, everybody has a talent, and it just depends if you, A, find the talent, B, if you try to do something with it. My talent was writing, but I never really recognized it. I just thought everybody could write a paper the night before and get an A. It was just very natural. It was just very natural. You really didn't understand why your classmates hated your guts, but they could do that. They could do their own thing.
00:07:30 / #: Anyway, I never really thought about it. Then, I went to University of Texas and then got a master's degree at Boston College. At that point, my husband was in medical school in Columbia Presbyterian in Manhattan. One thing, I've been extraordinarily lucky, you know how when you don't know if you should go one direction or another?
Jennifer Prokop 00:08:00 / #: Mm-hmm.
Catherine Coulter 00:08:01 / #: Then you might go the one direction and you think, "Well, what would've happened if I had... Well..." Anyway, it's at the same time, I was offered an assistant professorship at a college in New Jersey, and then the other was a speech writing job on Wall Street in Manhattan. I got to weigh both of them.
00:08:22 / #: My dad had been a professor at UT, and he would tell me that academia is the most, it's a viper pit. He said, "I've never seen anything like it. They cannot compare, businesses cannot compare to the viper pit that is academia.
Sarah MacLean 00:08:40 / #: Even Wall Street?
Jennifer Prokop 00:08:42 / #: Yeah, wow.
Catherine Coulter 00:08:43 / #: I chose Wall Street and I wrote speeches and for a guy who was the president of an actuarial firm, and your eyes are already glazing over, mind did. But I'll never forget in the interview, he was this kind of desiccated little old guy. He was very nice, and he was the president and he said, "I have to speak a lot." He says, "I don't know why people ask me to speak, because I'm not very good." He said, "Can you make me funny?"
00:09:12 / #: I said, "Sure, sure." Then at that time, my husband, as I said, was at Columbia Presbyterian. I saw him maybe 30 minutes a day over spaghetti. I was reading, oh, 10 to 15 books a week in the evening. Then one night I threw the book across the room and said, "I can do better." I thought that I was so, I thought that I was a trailblazer, that nobody had ever done that.
Sarah MacLean 00:09:42 / #: Now look.
Catherine Coulter 00:09:42 / #: Well, it turns out that maybe 60% of writers started that way. "I can do better." I went in and told my husband and I have heard from so many women and I just want to take them out and shoot them. "Oh, well, my husband won't let me do blah, blah, blah." I go, "Oh, shut up." Kick the jerk to the curb. He said, "Sure." He took the next weekend off and together we plotted the first and last book, but that was the last one he helped plot.
Jennifer Prokop 00:10:16 / #: Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 00:10:16 / #: Oh, my gosh.
Catherine Coulter 00:10:18 / #: That was, what was the name of that? The Autumn Countess, which I later rewrote and made it into The Countess, which is much, much better, because it's funny. That's how it started.
Sarah MacLean 00:10:30 / #: That book was published in 1979. Were you read, is that right around, was it very quickly published?
Catherine Coulter 00:10:37 / #: Well, what happened was is since I was working full time, I would get up and write at like 4:30 and then get ready for work at 6:30. I've always been a morning person, so that worked for me. I took about a year. I'll never forget, I rode the A train, it's the express, down to Wall Street. There was this guy who worked at William Morrow.
00:11:03 / #: I said, "Oh, I'm writing a book." "Yeah right, honey." I think at the time, he wanted to get in my pants, and so he was all sorts of encouraging and nice. What he did was he gave me the name of a freelance editor in the city, and she was also a model. Of course at that time, nobody knew anything and nobody knew anything until RWA was founded-
Jennifer Prokop 00:11:33 / #: Right.
Catherine Coulter 00:11:33 / #: ... in the early 80s.
Sarah MacLean 00:11:34 / #: Right.
Catherine Coulter 00:11:35 / #: And that's when things started opening up. But at that time, it was a black hole, publishing, but I was at least in the center of it.
Jennifer Prokop 00:11:43 / #: You were reading romance novels at this point? So you-
Catherine Coulter 00:11:46 / #: Well, I read that, but I don't know if you know this, but I would say that a good 90%, maybe more, of all of my books have mysteries in them.
Jennifer Prokop 00:11:57 / #: Right.
Sarah MacLean 00:11:57 / #: Right. Yes.
Catherine Coulter 00:12:00 / #: I love mysteries. It was just a natural thing to have mysteries in it. I read tons of mysteries and I read, and there were the early bodice rippers, which were a hoot. We have the 18-year-old virgin at the beginning, she loses her virginity, he's the hero. They're separated for 500 pages and then they get together at the end. Oh, I love you. They were wonderful. They were absolutely incredible.
00:12:29 / #: This editor said, "Well, let's go for it." What she had was the top Regency publishers and the top editors. At the time it was New American Library, they had the class act with Signet Regencies, and they were the only really class act in publishing. You can now take courses on writing query letters, you know 101.
Jennifer Prokop 00:12:58 / #: Yeah.
Catherine Coulter 00:12:58 / #: I like, well, dear boss, this is my book. I hope you like it. It's so stupid. Again, you never know. There are usually three reasons why you're bought in a house, back then and now. Number one is a whole lot of writers, the majority of writers are always late. The writers under contract are always late turning in manuscripts. They're going, "Ah, what are we going to do? What are we going to do?"
Jennifer Prokop 00:13:32 / #: You just called out Sarah real hard and it's pretty amazing.
Catherine Coulter 00:13:35 / #: Sarah, come here and let me smack you.
Sarah MacLean 00:13:39 / #: I'm sorry, I'm sorry, Catherine. I'm sorry.
Jennifer Prokop 00:13:42 / #: Meet your deadline, Sarah.
Catherine Coulter 00:13:43 / #: Oh, well, you drive a house crazy, because then they're having to do this, that and the other. Or they might buy a book because they really, really love it. But those are the two main reasons. I really don't know which one I was.
Jennifer Prokop 00:13:59 / #: Oh, I know.
Catherine Coulter 00:14:01 / #: Well, Hilary Ross called me three days later, asked me out to lunch and offered me a three book contract. I was very, very lucky. She loves to tell the story how she pulled me up by my bootstrap son of a bitch. That could have been true, I guess. She still lives on the West Side of New York.
Jennifer Prokop 00:14:25 / #: Oh, that's great.
Catherine Coulter 00:14:26 / #: She was a character, and so it was very strange. But she loved my book, so what can I do, but love her back?
Jennifer Prokop 00:14:33 / #: Of course.
Catherine Coulter 00:14:34 / #: I didn't have an agent. When the three book contract was coming up, because I was such an idiot and didn't know anything, I asked my editor if she could recommend an agent. She recommended a very good friend of hers. I realized that I could have negotiated myself a better contract. That's how it all started.
Jennifer Prokop 00:15:00 / #: Hilary Ross, did she found the New American Library. For people who don't know, New American Library became Signet, correct?
Catherine Coulter 00:15:08 / #: No, no, no. New American Library was subsumed by Putnam.
Jennifer Prokop 00:15:13 / #: Okay.
Catherine Coulter 00:15:14 / #: Okay?
Jennifer Prokop 00:15:15 / #: Yep.
Catherine Coulter 00:15:16 / #: Then Putnam, of course, was subsumed by Random House. There used to be the big seven sisters in New York, and I think now we're down to four.
Jennifer Prokop 00:15:24 / #: Yeah, right.
Catherine Coulter 00:15:24 / #: We won't go into Amazon who just did wonderful things.
Sarah MacLean 00:15:28 / #: I am currently holding up an original copy of the Rebel Bride. Look down at your app right now, and you'll see the covers of the original Signet Regency. Could you talk a little bit about Signet as a line, because we talk a lot here about category romance, but we haven't talked really at all about Signet, which is one of the reasons why we were so excited to have you come on, because we want to talk obviously about your historicals and how much of a powerhouse you had become. But in those early days at Signet, what was the vibe? What were people thinking there?
Catherine Coulter 00:16:03 / #: Well, at that point in time, Signet had sort of developed as kind of the classiest of the Regency romances. There were some other little attempts by other houses, and I cannot remember any other imprints at this-
Sarah MacLean 00:16:25 / #: Sure.
Catherine Coulter 00:16:25 / #: I just can't remember. But with Signet, even their print runs, which were considered quite healthy then, for the Regencies, they were like 60,000. Then what happened was on the second book, I remember having, I got the plot idea and the second book, was that The Rebel Bride?
Jennifer Prokop 00:16:51 / #: Yes.
Catherine Coulter 00:16:52 / #: Okay. I told Hilary, we were down in Wall Street at a restaurant and we were having lunch. I said, "Well, Hilary," I said, "The only thing is," there was no sex in Regencies. Absolutely zippo, nada.
Jennifer Prokop 00:17:10 / #: Right.
Catherine Coulter 00:17:10 / #: I said, "I've got a plot, Hilary, but I want sex in it." It was at that point, which rarely happens, but it was an utter lack of noise in the restaurant and everybody was on point, and we got a good laugh out of that. I told her what I wanted to do and she grinned and she said, "Go for it."
Sarah MacLean 00:17:39 / #: Oh, great.
Jennifer Prokop 00:17:39 / #: Wow.
Catherine Coulter 00:17:39 / #: As a result, the print run jumped up to like 130,000.
Sarah MacLean 00:17:45 / #: Oh, look at that.
Catherine Coulter 00:17:46 / #: They were like, because everybody loved it. Then Joan Wolf, who's a friend now, always, always, and she was at Signet at that time, and so she stuck her toes in. But that was really the start of putting sex in Regencies. It was not discreet. In those days, they truly were bodice rippers. The sex could be extraordinarily explicit. I did extraordinarily explicit sex, I think through The Sherbrooke Bride series.
00:18:23 / #: Even toward the end of that, I just kind of lost interest in it and really spent much more time on the plot and the characters, because I'd read so many books. I go to conferences where editors would say, "Now, you want to have a sex scene every three chapters," or every 20 pages, or whatever. It was like it was gratuitous. That's when I realized you don't want anything gratuitous in a book, because it pulls the reader out of the book, which it did me, and I'm a reader, big reader.
00:18:59 / #: I said, "What are you doing? Who cares? These are just parts and it doesn't mean anything." In other words, most of the time, the sex scenes did not forward the plot. They detracted, they were just blah, they were just thrown in. I just kind of lost interest in it. That's when I just kind of went down, down, down, down, down, and stopped with explicit sex. Most people didn't.
00:19:27 / #: In fact, today, again, I wish that people writing romance would not depend so heavily on this really, really explicit sex, because it's not necessary. If you're going to do a sex scene, you want to have humor in it. It shouldn't be body part A, and body part B, and oh, this is so serious, and blah, blah, blah. No. Blah. Anyway, all right. I'm now off my bandwagon.
Jennifer Prokop 00:19:54 / #: That's okay.
Sarah MacLean 00:19:54 / #: I love a bandwagon.
Jennifer Prokop 00:19:58 / #: This week's episode of Fated Mates is sponsored by Cara Dion, author of Indiscreet.
Sarah MacLean 00:20:04 / #: All right, here we go. Are you ready?
Jennifer Prokop 00:20:06 / #: I'm ready.
Sarah MacLean 00:20:07 / #: On her 21st birthday, our Heroine Min is stood up at the opera by some jerk, but there just happens to be somebody in the seat next to her.
Jennifer Prokop 00:20:18 / #: Very handsome. I'm sure.
Sarah MacLean 00:20:19 / #: So handsome. They have an instant attraction. They bond over their love of music and opera and they have a one night stand, as one does. They leave the opera immediately. Have a one night stand, Moonstruck style.
Jennifer Prokop 00:20:33 / #: Moonstruck style. I love it.
Sarah MacLean 00:20:35 / #: Exactly. Except, Jen, what do you think happens the next day when Min goes to her university opera program?
Jennifer Prokop 00:20:46 / #: Is he her professor, Sarah?
Sarah MacLean 00:20:47 / #: Oh my God. He's totally her professor. Totally. It gets-
Jennifer Prokop 00:20:51 / #: You could not be more delighted by this, and I love it.
Sarah MacLean 00:20:53 / #: My favorite, this is my favorite, I cannot wait to read this. This one is for anybody who, like me, loves a professor-student romance. This is very forbidden. It's all about secrets. There's a little bit of an age gap in here, if you like an age gap romance. All I have to say about this is, it sounds frickin' great.
00:21:14 / #: There's a secret dark shadow from Mins past, makes their entanglement even more complicated. This is my favorite part. The music that drove them both forward and bound them together could also be the thing to tear them apart.
Jennifer Prokop 00:21:31 / #: Amazing. You can find Indiscreet in print, ebook and on KU. You can find out more about the author at CaraDion.author on Instagram. Thank you to Cara Dion for sponsoring this week's episode of Fated Meets.
Sarah MacLean 00:21:49 / #: You wrote seven Signets and seven Regencies, and then you moved to what you call historicals.
Catherine Coulter 00:21:58 / #: Well, no, I call them hystericals.
Sarah MacLean 00:22:02 / #: Oh, you're amazing.
Catherine Coulter 00:22:03 / #: Yes. I wrote long hystericals. That was interesting, because at that point, after I finished that contract, I had the brain to say, "I think I need a real agent and not the editor's best friend." I had met Peter Heggie, who was the Secretary of the Authors Guild in New York. I gave him a call. We had moved to San Francisco, because my husband was doing his residency here at the University of California San Francisco.
00:22:40 / #: Of course, a writer is totally portable. At that time, my company, I was kind of the golden lass. They even moved me out here to do a job that I had no knowledge, that I couldn't do, because it was installing a computer system on the West Coast. Okay.
Jennifer Prokop 00:23:00 / #: Right.
Catherine Coulter 00:23:00 / #: Honey, I can't even do Zoom. All right? Anyway, that's neither here nor there. But so I called Peter Heggie from San Francisco and told him I wanted a female agent. He gave me the name of two women and then he gave me one man. When I came back to New York on business and so forth, I met these people, and I swear to you, I do not even remember the women's names. I went to William Morris, they're a great big agency in New York.
00:23:36 / #: I met with the guy he recommended. His name was Robert Gottlieb, and he'd been out of the mail room, and that is still spelled male. He was in kind of this closet with no window. He'd been out of the mail room for like six months and we talked and I said, "What do you want to do when you grow up?" He said, "I want to be on the board of directors of William Morris by the time I'm 45."
00:24:10 / #: I never forgot that. Anyway, he became my agent. He absolutely enraged Hilary, absolutely enraged. The head of the house, of New American Library had to get involved to calm things down. My darling, this is over a 10,000 book advance, a $10,000 book advance. Because we're back in 1980.
Sarah MacLean 00:24:36 / #: Sure.
Catherine Coulter 00:24:37 / #: Okay. 1981. That worked out. Robert and I have been together longer than all of his marriages, but I give great gifts. I give great gifts.
Sarah MacLean 00:24:50 / #: You are the reason why.
Jennifer Prokop 00:24:51 / #: Yeah.
Catherine Coulter 00:24:53 / #: Oh, boy. I'll never forget this, just to aside. I'll never forget, he called me in 1987 and he was hyperventilating. He was so excited. He was on the board of directors of William Morris when he was 37.
Sarah MacLean 00:25:11 / #: Oh, that's great news.
Jennifer Prokop 00:25:12 / #: Oh, look at that news.
Catherine Coulter 00:25:12 / #: Yeah. It's a great story. Then he got out sharked by Michael Ovitz in 2000 and then started Trident Media. That started a new chapter of his life. He also married Olga, who was an orienteer at Olympic in Russia.
Sarah MacLean 00:25:33 / #: Wow.
Catherine Coulter 00:25:33 / #: He's a Russian fanatic. Anyway, and so they're still married. They have two grown kids, well almost grown kids now. Everything is good with him. As I say, we've been together for how long? Years and years.
Sarah MacLean 00:25:46 / #: That's a long time.
Catherine Coulter 00:25:46 / #: Well over 30 years. In the mid-80s, Bob Diforio, who was on the sales team for New American Library, he became the President. He and I met, and I really didn't know who he was, but we just had an immediate relationship. He was in part, he started pushing me immediately. I'll never forget, it was a Fire Song.
00:26:21 / #: It was the first, yeah, it was the book in the medieval series. They decided, you're going to love this. He decided that they were going to have a Fire Song perfume. They attached these little bottles of perfumes to all the books and shrink wrap them. The problem was...
Sarah MacLean 00:26:45 / #: Oh, my gosh.
Catherine Coulter 00:26:49 / #: They were shipped and were shipped in trucks and whatever. The perfume turned horrible.
Sarah MacLean 00:26:51 / #: Oh, no.
Catherine Coulter 00:27:00 / #: I must have gotten 2000 emails saying, not emails, letters saying, "Blech, ew."
Jennifer Prokop 00:27:08 / #: Oh, no.
Catherine Coulter 00:27:10 / #: Oh, that was so fun.
Jennifer Prokop 00:27:12 / #: Still you survived it, Catherine. The books must've been great.
Catherine Coulter 00:27:17 / #: Oh, things just. There's so many just cute little things that happened through the years.
Sarah MacLean 00:27:23 / #: That Song series. I think I read every one of those books a dozen times. I would get one and then just read them straight through-
Jennifer Prokop 00:27:32 / #: Read them all.
Sarah MacLean 00:27:32 / #: ... and then immediately start again. I wonder if you could talk a little bit, just in general, about what it was like writing. When we talk now about, when we look back on the 70s, the 80s, the early 90s, that period of time really felt like the heyday of romance. It's never been like that since.
Catherine Coulter 00:27:54 / #: It was the golden age, I call it. It really was the golden age.
Sarah MacLean 00:27:57 / #: Do you feel like you knew at the time what you were a part of?
Catherine Coulter 00:28:04 / #: Oh, no. You never do. No, no, no, no. I look back now and realize it was the golden age. Of course, this was pre-Amazon and everybody was just, the print runs were outrageous. They were over a million copies, and it was-
Jennifer Prokop 00:28:25 / #: That's wild.
Catherine Coulter 00:28:27 / #: Yeah. It was a wild time. But you really, you're writing and then a book comes out and it does like this. When we negotiate a contract and we're going to conferences and you just don't think, "Wow, I'm a part of the golden era." Because at the time, you are still a part of it and you're not looking back. You're not looking back. You're looking forward, always, always forward.
Sarah MacLean 00:28:56 / #: Tell us a little bit about what the readers are like at this point. What are these conferences like?
Catherine Coulter 00:29:01 / #: I think the last one was an RWA, but when I compare it to the ones throughout the years, they're not that different at all. They're really not. I will tell you, the big writers, like Janet Daly was huge then. Absolutely huge. I remember she would travel to a conference with her handlers. Okay. There'd be her personal handler, and then there'd be somebody from the publishing house, and then they would answer most of the questions.
00:29:42 / #: In the other workshops by the unsuperstars had then, as you had now, is people will stand up and say, "Okay, you want to do this, this, this, and this, and don't do that and don't do this." People are out. They want to get published. That's what they want more than anything in the universe. They're taking wild notes. I can remember thinking then, "This is nuts. What you want to do, darling, is to write a good story. Forget the rest of the shit." Okay?
Jennifer Prokop 00:30:15 / #: Yeah.
Catherine Coulter 00:30:17 / #: I just had a few do's and don'ts, but mainly even back then, I'd say, "Sit your butt in a chair and write. You cannot edit a blank page. It doesn't matter if you write crap, it really doesn't, because now you have something to work on." But people, they would preach. There was a lot of preaching, because I'm published and you're not. I don't know if it's still like that today.
00:30:51 / #: It was, the last time I was at a conference, it was more or less like that. These were kind of superstars, like what's her face? Oh, she retired and stopped writing. LaVyrle Spencer. You had, again, a huge disparity between the superstars and the people who desperately wanted to be published. This has been true forever. Forever.
Sarah MacLean 00:31:18 / #: While we're talking about authors, other authors, could you give us a sense of who was your community? You obviously, you're very busy, you have a day job, a high power day job, your husband is studying.
Catherine Coulter 00:31:31 / #: No, I quit my job in 1981, because I could no longer afford to work.
Sarah MacLean 00:31:39 / #: Right. It's the dream. Right?
Jennifer Prokop 00:31:40 / #: Right.
Sarah MacLean 00:31:41 / #: Of course.
Catherine Coulter 00:31:42 / #: Yeah. I was full-time writer from 1981, got a computer in 1981. It was $10,000. It was a Vector and it had a five-inch floppy disk. It took a week to learn how to do it. But I expected that knew it, but it got rid of all the crap, because if you made mistakes before on an electric typewriter, you had to retype a page.
Sarah MacLean 00:32:02 / #: Retype, right. Mm-hmm.
Catherine Coulter 00:32:06 / #: But you just press a little button and crap's gone.
Sarah MacLean 00:32:08 / #: Sure.
Catherine Coulter 00:32:08 / #: It was an amazing, amazing thing. Graham Greene, another writer. I'll never forget, he said in the mid-80s, "You're not a real writer if you use a computer." And I was thinking, "You idiot."
Jennifer Prokop 00:32:19 / #: Oh, Graham.
Sarah MacLean 00:32:21 / #: Oh, Graham. That's cute. That's cute. Graham.
Catherine Coulter 00:32:24 / #: Oh, lord. In 1985, I was in Houston. I had a couple of medical writer friends who sort of dropped out a little bit later, dropped out of the picture. But in 1985, I was in Houston, and this is when Rebecca Brandewyne was really big.
Sarah MacLean 00:32:45 / #: Of course.
Jennifer Prokop 00:32:45 / #: Oh, yeah.
Catherine Coulter 00:32:48 / #: Her mother, she really wanted to have lunch with me. I said, "Well, this will be fun to see what she has to say." She was an agent, Rebecca's mom. Then I'll never forget, she kissed me off for somebody else to have lunch with. I was kind of looking around and I see an empty chair at this table, and I go up and I say, "Can I sit here?" We met, and this was Linda Howard and Iris Johansen and Kay Hooper.
Sarah MacLean 00:33:21 / #: Oh, the whole crew.
Catherine Coulter 00:33:22 / #: We became best friends at that point. We have stayed that way forever.
Jennifer Prokop 00:33:26 / #: That's nice. That's great.
Catherine Coulter 00:33:29 / #: Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 00:33:29 / #: My gosh, and all four of you have just, you're still all writing. That's rare when you make a group of friends when you're young at the job and that you're all still there.
Catherine Coulter 00:33:41 / #: Yeah. Everybody became successful, everybody, all four of us, which was very good to happen, because you wouldn't want one or two people not as successful as you when we'd go on trips and stuff together. It worked out very, very well. I don't think there was no jealousy. Everybody was very supportive of everybody else, so it worked.
Sarah MacLean 00:34:06 / #: Around this time, one of the things that's interesting is you really had a productive period in the 80s where you were writing historicals. You wrote a few Silhouette Intimate Moments. You were clearly starting to transition into doing mystery thriller. Did you feel like you got guidance through this process? Or was this something that you just really were like, "These are the things I want to write?"
Catherine Coulter 00:34:30 / #: Well, that's a good question. I remember, I think it was in 1985, and we were in Europe on a train in Switzerland, and this entire plot came into my brain, which had never happened before, and it was contemporary. I said, "Go away. I don't want to watch contemporary go away." It didn't. I wrote it when I got home and I realized it was a short contemporary romance, and I had no idea what to do with it.
00:35:00 / #: I called a friend, Debbie Gordon, who's no longer writing, but she was very big at that time at Silhouette. She said, "Okay." She said, "This is what you tell Robert, this is what he wants to ask for." I did it, and he did, and I was with Leslie Wenger, and so it was a three book series, Aftershocks, the Aristocrat and Afterglow. She said, "Okay, now I've got the A's. What are the B's going to be?"
00:35:33 / #: I said, "Honey, there ain't no more water in this well." So it was just those three, but they were fun. They were like a little dessert, a little dish of sorbet. Because they're only about 65,000 words, as opposed to 100, 110,000. No, there was no guidance. In 1988, it was, the idea came to me. It wasn't a plot then. It was just an idea. Just to back up one second.
00:36:07 / #: This was False Pretenses, and it was my very first hardcover. It was a romantic suspense, not a suspense, a romantic suspense. The heroine was a concert pianist. When you change genres, the most important thing you want to do is to eliminate as many unknowns as you can. I picked the piano, because I'm a pianist. My Mother was a concert pianist, organist, and I knew everything about it. I knew all the music, so I knew-
Jennifer Prokop 00:36:44 / #: Interesting. Yeah.
Catherine Coulter 00:36:44 / #: ... what I was talking about. We're in New York City, and then it was of course a mystery, but it was a romantic suspense, because you can't be a romance unless there's a central core that's a man and a woman getting together in a relationship. Then, everything else can be around it. It doesn't matter. It can be Mars, it can be murders or can be anything you want, but to be a romance, you have to have the central core being the relationship.
00:37:16 / #: That's what it was. They wanted to push it as this. I don't even remember. I said, "No, it's a romantic suspense." They said, "Okay." That was the first hardcover. Then I wrote probably four or five more contemporary romantic suspense, which were a lot of fun to do. Anyway, I was writing probably three or four books a year. It was easy. Now, of course, I write, never mind, because now I'm an elder.
00:37:48 / #: But anyway, I was writing a whole lot of books a year, and I'll never forget. Then Putnam and Putnam had bought, as I said, New American Library. The head of Putnam was Phyllis Grann. She's Probably the best woman publisher, she was, in the world. I absolutely would kill for her. She would call me up and say, "Catherine, I need a quote." I said, "What would you like me to say?" Whatever she wanted from me, she got, because she was absolutely wonderful.
00:38:27 / #: They went back to New York and there was this big round table at the plaza in the tearoom there in the court, and I was introduced to my new editor, and they made an offer that was just outrageous, absolutely outrageous. I'll not tell you what it is, but it was outrageous. I went there, and what they wanted was the hysterical romances.
Jennifer Prokop 00:38:58 / #: The hysterical romances.
Catherine Coulter 00:39:03 / #: Well, I try to make them funny. I really do. Oh, one thing I wanted to add, talk about luck, those first six or seven Regencies, I went back and rewrote them.
Sarah MacLean 00:39:17 / #: Yeah, I want To talk about that.
Catherine Coulter 00:39:20 / #: I made them so much better. I turned them into historical romances and I made them funny. Then they hit the New York Times, because they were no longer Regencies.
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Sarah MacLean 00:40:50 / #: Did you go to Putnam and say, "I want to rewrite these?"
Catherine Coulter 00:40:53 / #: Yeah. Yeah. I said I really would like them because I think that they're kind of a bummer to me now, and I don't think I can make them 1000% percent better and make them longer and richer and funnier and all that. They said, "Sure, go for it."
Sarah MacLean 00:41:10 / #: That's incredible. What is that process like? This is the mid-80s, so it's only five or six years. It's not even a decade, since they came out. What was that process like as a writer to revise essentially yourself-
Jennifer Prokop 00:41:31 / #: Right.
Sarah MacLean 00:41:32 / #: ... at a distance?
Catherine Coulter 00:41:33 / #: It was easy. It was very, very easy, because the book was already there. I didn't have to worry about, oh dear, is that plot going to work here and there? No, no, no. I didn't have to worry about it. All I had to worry about was let's make this really, really fun.
Sarah MacLean 00:41:49 / #: Was it driven by, I'm a better writer now. I've had more practice?
Catherine Coulter 00:41:56 / #: Yes, yes.
Sarah MacLean 00:41:57 / #: Or the rules don't apply to me in the same way anymore, or both?
Catherine Coulter 00:42:00 / #: Both. Both. Of course, Regencies, ever since Joan and I were big at Signet, Regency started changing.
Sarah MacLean 00:42:10 / #: Well, they got sexier.
Catherine Coulter 00:42:11 / #: Yeah. That was because of Joan and Me, which was, and I can take credit for that and so did she.
Sarah MacLean 00:42:18 / #: Good.
Catherine Coulter 00:42:18 / #: That was fun.
Sarah MacLean 00:42:19 / #: You're at the Plaza, they want historicals?
Catherine Coulter 00:42:23 / #: They wanted historicals. In a period of three and a half years, I wrote three trilogies.
Sarah MacLean 00:42:30 / #: Wow.
Catherine Coulter 00:42:31 / #: The Wyndham Legacy, the Legacy Trilogy, the Fire Trilogy, and another trilogy that escapes my brain at the moment. But it had never happened in my life, but I was burned in my toes.
Jennifer Prokop 00:42:44 / #: Yeah, I'm sure.
Catherine Coulter 00:42:46 / #: Absolutely burned in my toes. It was in 1995, and I was at family reunion in Texas, and my sister, who has never done this before or since, walked up to me and said, "Have you ever heard of a little town on the coast of Oregon called The Cove? They make the world's greatest ice cream and bad stuff happens." I just went on point.
Sarah MacLean 00:43:17 / #: What?
Catherine Coulter 00:43:17 / #: I said, "Oh my heavens, my heavens." I told my editor, and of course, I understood their position. If it ain't broke, why fix it?
Sarah MacLean 00:43:31 / #: Sure.
Catherine Coulter 00:43:32 / #: But I really dug in my heels.
Jennifer Prokop 00:43:33 / #: Well, they'd milked to you for nine books in three years.
Catherine Coulter 00:43:38 / #: But at that point, I had enough power. I said, "Give me a chance." Then, that's when I wrote The Cove. Then when they got it, they wanted to make it into a hardcover. I said, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no." I said, "Failure is well and good, but you don't want to fail in hardcover. Who knows how this book will be received?" They brought it out in paperback in 1996, I believe, and it really did extraordinarily well.
00:44:11 / #: I was very happy for that. Then the publisher called and I said, "Well, when's the next one in the series?" I said, "What series? What are you talking about?" I kid you not, this will happen. It happened. There was this voice in the back of my head, and he said, "Catherine, what about me?" It was Dillon Savage. Then, The Maze was basically Sherlock's book, and this is the book they got together.
00:44:45 / #: Then after that, you had The Target, which is one of my all-time favorite books with The Hunt, Ramsey Hunt, and Emma. I'll never forget, I wrote international thrillers with JT Ellison, six of them. I'll never forget, JT told me, he said, "Well, a series isn't really a series until book four." I was kind of laughing at her. She was perfectly right. She was totally right.
00:45:14 / #: The fourth book, The Edge, started that series, and then it just went from there. At that point, I was writing one historical a year and one FBI thriller a year. It worked very, very well, because they're such disparate genres and your brain gets unconstipated. You know what I mean?
Jennifer Prokop 00:45:39 / #: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 00:45:39 / #: Yeah, sure.
Catherine Coulter 00:45:41 / #: Then it's just been about, I guess about four or five years ago, I could just do one book a year, and that was fine. That was perfectly fine. It's been wonderful. I feel blessed, very, very blessed, and very, very lucky and have met so many fascinating writers and publishers over the years. As I say, Robert and I are still together.
Jennifer Prokop 00:46:10 / #: Amazing.
Catherine Coulter 00:46:10 / #: He'll come up and talk about, yada, yada, it's wonderful.
Jennifer Prokop 00:46:15 / #: Can we return maybe to The Sherbrooke Bride for a second?
Catherine Coulter 00:46:19 / #: Sure.
Jennifer Prokop 00:46:20 / #: Sarah talked about it being one of her favorites. You mentioned that so many readers still talk about it.
Catherine Coulter 00:46:27 / #: Yeah.
Jennifer Prokop 00:46:29 / #: When we're talking about romance, why do you think this is the book that so many romance readers connected to? Is it the primordial Catherine Coulter book? What made it the one?
Catherine Coulter 00:46:41 / #: I think that everybody, women, I think that women respond visually to a real alpha male who's an asshole, basically. But he's a real alpha male, and it's how the woman, he ends up worshiping her toenails. I think women, it's on a visceral level, they love that. They're just fascinated by the alpha male. That's my own feeling.
Jennifer Prokop 00:47:14 / #: I also think, I was speaking to a friend of mine earlier today about how we were interviewing you, Catherine, and my friend Sophie Jordan, who also writes historicals was saying that, we talked about how you really mastered the grovel in your books. You put them through the ringer at the end, because they've been such assholes.
Sarah MacLean 00:47:38 / #: That is a great joy.
Catherine Coulter 00:47:39 / #: You're not going to find an Alan Alda character as a woman's hero. Let's get real here. A beta male is of no interest to anybody, except fixing your computer.
Jennifer Prokop 00:47:55 / #: But truthfully, I think that the magic of a Catherine Coulter book is that sort of sense, as you said, worshiping her to her toenails only once he has been clubbed over the head with how terrible he's been to her. It's that punishment too.
Catherine Coulter 00:48:12 / #: It's discipline. Men love to be disciplined, even if they don't admit it. They just love it. They love it. On the other hand, the youngest brother, Tysen, who starred in The Scottish Bride, that's probably my favorite, because he evolved. He evolved so much, and he was such a good man. I take it back about the alpha male, because Tysen was absolutely amazing to me. I loved him.
Jennifer Prokop 00:48:55 / #: Was it a challenge to write someone who then was really different?
Catherine Coulter 00:48:58 / #: Oh, no. No. I loved him from the moment that book started when he was dealing with his three children, and he didn't know what to do with them. He evolved so much and turned into such a kind wonderful person who was never an asshole. He was just stupid. He wasn't stupid, that's the wrong word. He was just caught up in this view, in this world view of himself that was so limiting.
00:49:39 / #: It was so very limiting. His brothers always made fun of him. I'll never forget in the beginning of Sherbrooke Bride, when they're having their quarterly bastard meeting. That just came out of my fingertips. I said, "What are you doing?" Then Tysen goes, "Ah," and runs out. He wants none of that. But that was great sport.
Jennifer Prokop 00:50:09 / #: As you think about your career, as you sort of look back, and obviously forward as well, you show no signs of stopping. Are there moments that you can sort of pinpoint of particular challenge as a writer or from the genre? Is there some lesson that you were sort of hard-learned that you can share with us?
Catherine Coulter 00:50:36 / #: Let me just say, I do not believe in writer's block, and I never have. What I believe in is a bad plot. It happened one time, and it was an FBI thriller. I don't even remember which one, but I got to page 85 and it had been a bear. Then all of a sudden it stopped cold and I realized, "Okay, this is a shitty plot." I threw the 85 pages in the garbage can and started over. Because if you're a writer, you have to be honest with yourself and what you're producing.
00:51:14 / #: When a book stops in its tracks and the characters look at you and say, "Please go away," it's a bad plot. It's up to you not to try to keep forcing it. The trick is you have to trust that there's another plot in the parking lot in your brain that's going to come driving out, and it will. It did. That was really the only time. But no, I'll never forget, this might be interesting to writers.
00:51:51 / #: With The Cove when I first wrote it, and my editor was the head of Berkeley, Leslie Gelbman, wonderful, wonderful editor and leader. When I first wrote The Cove, it was a brand new genre for me. I wrote the entire plot out in the first 50 pages. You know how she dealt with it? She called me up, she says, and she wanted to see what I was doing. She called me back and she was saying, "Catherine, okay, now, you know what the plot is. Tell me the story."
Jennifer Prokop 00:52:35 / #: Oh, I love that.
Catherine Coulter 00:52:36 / #: That's what she said.
Jennifer Prokop 00:52:36 / #: That's a good piece of advice.
Catherine Coulter 00:52:38 / #: I had written the whole thing out in the first 50 pages so the reader would know everything. Then she was just so matter of fact, "Now, tell me the story." So, I did.
Jennifer Prokop 00:52:49 / #: Amazing.
Catherine Coulter 00:52:50 / #: A good editor, you've got to be lucky in your editors too. I know some authors who have had nine editors at the same house, and this is never good. This is always sucky. I've been very, very lucky in my editors.
Jennifer Prokop 00:53:06 / #: Who is your editor now, Catherine?
Catherine Coulter 00:53:08 / #: My editor now is a brand new person. I'm with William Morrow, and her name is May Chen. She's fairly hands-off. Actually. I'd had David Highfill. He had the absolute gall to retire and move to Tuscany.
Sarah MacLean 00:53:24 / #: How dare.
Jennifer Prokop 00:53:25 / #: That's terrible.
Catherine Coulter 00:53:27 / #: I was just cursing him, "Don't you dare go anywhere." He said, "I promise that I have spoken to May, and she will do very good by you. Please trust me, Catherine, and don't shoot her." She's very kind. To be very honest, my husband is basically my editor on the FBI thrillers. He can't write his way out of a paper bag, but he's an incredible editor.
Sarah MacLean 00:53:56 / #: That's great.
Catherine Coulter 00:53:57 / #: Since I've become an elder, I've slowed down. I had decided with Reckoning, the book that's coming out next week, I don't want to be under contact anymore. I want to just write what I want to write, and then I'll sell it. Then they said, "Oh, please, please. Dah, da, da, da, da." I said, "Okay, but I don't want, make it two years." "Okay. Anything you want. Not a problem. Not a problem." I'm on page 80, and the outline is due a year from this month.
Jennifer Prokop 00:54:27 / #: There you go.
Sarah MacLean 00:54:29 / #: Well, so there you go. You can't stop.
Catherine Coulter 00:54:31 / #: You can't stop. You can't stop. But I guess five years ago, I was asked if I was a pantser or a plotter, and I didn't know what they were talking about, but I'm definitely a pantser, are you?
Sarah MacLean 00:54:44 / #: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Catherine Coulter 00:54:46 / #: Which means you're always rewriting and rewriting and changing.
Sarah MacLean 00:54:51 / #: Constantly.
Catherine Coulter 00:54:51 / #: [inaudible 00:54:52 / #] build up, we call it. Constantly, constantly, constantly.
Sarah MacLean 00:54:54 / #: Which is why it terrified me that you rewrote The Rebel Bride. I was like, "Oh God, I can never go back. I'll throw it all out and start over."
Catherine Coulter 00:55:04 / #: No, no, no. You don't understand. The book was there and the plot was there.
Sarah MacLean 00:55:08 / #: Yes, right.
Catherine Coulter 00:55:09 / #: So there were no hurries. Now, you're just putting on different tree ornaments.
Sarah MacLean 00:55:13 / #: Nice.
Catherine Coulter 00:55:13 / #: Different lights. It was wonderful.
Sarah MacLean 00:55:15 / #: I bet, I bet. Catherine, tell us a little bit, I want to just talk a little about the shift from Catherine Coulter, romance trailblazer, to Catherine Coulter, real powerhouse in thrillers. Was it an easy transition in the world? Meaning did thrillers welcome you? I know that it's tough to be a woman writing thrillers in the thriller world. I'm wondering, did you have that experience or was it very generally welcoming?
Catherine Coulter 00:55:51 / #: That's a very good observation and the absolute truth is I never thought about it.
Sarah MacLean 00:55:56 / #: That's good.
Catherine Coulter 00:55:57 / #: The first time when they put, it took a while, they put the second book, The Maze in Hardcover, and it made the times, but it wasn't in the top five. But then they just kept getting stronger and stronger. By the time I went to, actually, I've never been to [inaudible 00:56:22 / #], I was just not interested. All my friends said they didn't like it. But anyway, ThrillerFest in New York City was a different matter.
00:56:32 / #: By the time I started going to ThrillerFest, the FBI series was really well grounded and was doing well. It wasn't like the third, fourth, or fifth book. It was like the eighth or ninth book in that series. There was never a problem. It was very welcoming. I really liked Lee Child. I just met a whole bunch of really, really nice people, men as well as women, like Lisa Gardner, who was such a sweetheart.
00:57:08 / #: I can't remember other names at the point, because I haven't been in three years, but it was just very, very welcoming. Well, the first year I went, it wasn't because I was interested. They had made me the interview of the year or something, I can't remember what they called it, where you're in front and you're interviewed by somebody, whatever. Anyway, so I just never experienced that. But again, a lot of people, men and women who go to ThrillerFest who are either unpublished or still in like the B rung, I do not know what their experiences are.
00:57:59 / #: Anybody I ever met was wonderful, and I'm not a jerk. I'll talk to everybody. It didn't matter. It was just never an issue. At the very beginning, "Oh, do you write children's books?" That kind of crap, but it just didn't matter. People would say, "Oh, you wrote romance?" I said, "Yes, yes, yes, yes." Because I'm not ashamed of them at all. I love them. I wish I could still write two books a year. One, a hysterical. When couldn't write two books a year, that's when I went to the novellas with Grace and Sherbrooke.
Sarah MacLean 00:58:38 / #: Right.
Catherine Coulter 00:58:39 / #: Are you familiar with those at all?
Sarah MacLean 00:58:41 / #: Yes. Yes. I've read them all.
Catherine Coulter 00:58:43 / #: Oh, well, you're so wonderful. Well, the sixth one will be out in October, because Nicole, who is God, and she heads up a digital division at Trident, which is Roberts agency. Oh, she's incredible. She is absolutely incredible. If you ever, her name is Nicole Robson. R-O-B-S-O-N.
00:59:11 / #: If you ever need anything to do, she's at the Trident Media Group in New York City, and she is smart. She's kind. She knows everything. She would help you without a problem. Anyway, she likes to put them near Halloween, because they're whoo-whoo.
Sarah MacLean 00:59:37 / #: Yeah. Well, that is the piece of the Coulter puzzle that I think is so fascinating as a writer, just looking at your career, you really have told so many different kinds of stories. For writers who are often told in a genre where we are often told, "Stay in your lane." I think part of the reason why The Sherbrooke Brides shattered everything I had thought historical was is because there was that ghosty piece.
Catherine Coulter 01:00:11 / #: The Virgin Bride, yeah.
Sarah MacLean 01:00:12 / #: Yeah, you'd never expect it. But I really feel like one of the-
Catherine Coulter 01:00:18 / #: And she lives in the past, I love it. She found her happy ever after.
Sarah MacLean 01:00:24 / #: Right. I think that there is, if you've never read Catherine Coulter's romances, I think there are so many different avenues to take, and that's really remarkable. You're a trailblazer. There's a reason why we reached out.
Catherine Coulter 01:00:44 / #: Well, you are so sweet. If you're kissing up, you're doing it very well.
Sarah MacLean 01:00:49 / #: Thank you. I'm really not. I really do think your books are great.
Jennifer Prokop 01:00:52 / #: Yeah, and we love the genre, and we love... God, we love romance so much. We just love romance.
Catherine Coulter 01:00:59 / #: Well, if you love romance so much still, I very rarely read contemporary romances because, I have found them still to be, we call it topping dicks. You tell a story and get rid of the stuff that's extraneous. It's like people are using horrible language. I stopped about 12 books ago. I never use bad language anymore, because it's gratuitous. You don't need it.
01:01:34 / #: There's always another way to say it without saying fuck. There is another way to say that. Sometimes that's appropriate, and I have to grind my teeth not to do it. But again, so many books, you have gratuitous bad language, you've read them, and you have gratuitous sex scenes. Stop it. Just stop it. Tell a good story.
Sarah MacLean 01:01:57 / #: Can I ask you a question? Do you think that there is a similar issue with gratuitous violence and thrillers?
Catherine Coulter 01:02:03 / #: Of course. Anything that's unnecessary is gratuitous. If you want to talk about ripping somebody's guts out and eating them, well, good luck. I'm not going to read your frickin' book. I'm not going to. Why do I care. You killed this person because of this, that, and the other reason, get on with the story. Yeah. Gratuitous violence, those three things are the major three.
01:02:31 / #: You hit it on the nail, it hit the nail on the hammer there, hit the nail on the head with a hammer. Okay, love that. I just hate gratuitous stuff. In the romances, it's still rife. I don't know why this is. I don't understand. It would seem to me that the genre would have weeded this out over the years, but it has not. Anyway, my soap box is now in the closet again.
Jennifer Prokop 01:03:01 / #: Catherine, I wonder, we end all of our conversations this way, so I hope you'll humor us. When we talk about trailblazers, we often come to the table with a preconceived idea of the answer to this question, but what is the hallmark of a Catherine Coulter novel? What is the thing you leave on the table every time?
Catherine Coulter 01:03:29 / #: Oh, you guys are just full of good questions. Let me just do the, address the FBI series.
Jennifer Prokop 01:03:37 / #: Yeah.
Catherine Coulter 01:03:38 / #: My promise to the reader is there is always justice at the end, and I will not kill off a major character. But there has got to be, it's always a good ending. Justice. We always have justice at the end, so there's no, what's the word, existential crap going on that leaves the reader wanting to streak. No, no, it's done. This chapter now is done, handled, although I do bring characters back a lot.
Sarah MacLean 01:04:12 / #: What about the romances?
Catherine Coulter 01:04:14 / #: The romances, I would say that after I rewrote those first six books, I realized that the trick really is to have as much humor as you can. If you are dialogue driven, which I hope most writers are, because after a page and a half, and this is another thing romance novels do wrong, page and a half of introspection, and you're already lost. You can't even remember what the character asked.
01:04:45 / #: The character asks a question, and we have a page and a half of introspection. What are you doing? Anyway, if you can say something allowed, you say it aloud, and if you can do it, have humor. If you have humor, just about anything will fly. I didn't do it in all the books, but there is humor whenever I can do it, and they're going to end well.
Jennifer Prokop 01:05:10 / #: Yeah. Wow.
Catherine Coulter 01:05:14 / #: But everybody's going to say that they're going to end well because a romance novel, because that's what the reader expects. These two people are going to go through the wringer, and then they're going to end out on the other side, and they're going to be mated for life. That is why women really like romance, because it's filled with hope. It's filled with hope. No matter what you endure in all of this, it's going to work out Well.
Sarah MacLean 01:05:39 / #: Well, thrillers too.
Jennifer Prokop 01:05:40 / #: Right, justice is served.
Sarah MacLean 01:05:41 / #: People often comment on, "Oh, so many romance novelists end up writing thrillers." The reality is, it makes perfect sense to us that that's a possible career arc. Because justice and hope being served are, they're both happily ever afters, in a certain sense, right?
Catherine Coulter 01:05:59 / #: They are. They're happily ever afters for that one plot. Okay. There are other things going on, of course, but no, you're perfectly right. You're perfectly right. There's hope and there's justice, and things are going to be okay. I promise you that. No matter what I do to those characters, it's going to be okay. Did you happen to get an ARC of Reckoning?
Sarah MacLean 01:06:25 / #: No. No, but I'm going to ask for one.
Jennifer Prokop 01:06:27 / #: We can ask Karen for them.
Catherine Coulter 01:06:29 / #: Well, I prefer that you bought it.
Jennifer Prokop 01:06:32 / #: I'll do that too.
Sarah MacLean 01:06:33 / #: Fine. We'll do that too.
Jennifer Prokop 01:06:35 / #: I'll take those orders. That's fine.
Catherine Coulter 01:06:38 / #: Well, there's a surprise at the end because readers have been bugging me about this for a long time, and I'm not going to tell you what it is.
Jennifer Prokop 01:06:45 / #: Okay.
Sarah MacLean 01:06:46 / #: Great.
Catherine Coulter 01:06:48 / #: I don't know if it's great, but we'll see.
Sarah MacLean 01:06:51 / #: I'm sure it will be. So Catherine, one last question. As you think about your more than 80 books, I think we're at now.
Catherine Coulter 01:07:01 / #: I'm on 88.
Sarah MacLean 01:07:03 / #: Number 88.
Jennifer Prokop 01:07:04 / #: Wow, yeah.
Sarah MacLean 01:07:05 / #: In 88 books, we've talked about books that your readers have really loved that have resonated. Is there a book that you think back on and think, "That was really fabulous? That's the one I wish everybody could read forever?"
Catherine Coulter 01:07:27 / #: Yes, indeed. My own personal favorite is Beyond Eden. I wrote it in the 90s, and it's my very, very own personal favorite. That book moved me profoundly.
Jennifer Prokop 01:07:39 / #: Why?
Catherine Coulter 01:07:39 / #: The heroine Lindsay. Her attitude on life and how she deals with what she goes through, which is a whole lot. Have you guys read it?
Jennifer Prokop 01:07:53 / #: I don't think I have read this one.
Sarah MacLean 01:07:55 / #: No, I don't think so.
Catherine Coulter 01:07:56 / #: Okay. Well, again, it's a contemporary and it's got a mystery in it. But again, it's a romantic suspense, and we have the hero in it is what you want every hero to be down to his toenails, which he buffs. Well, I don't know if he does. But it will move you, I hope, profoundly. It ended up right. It ended up right.
Sarah MacLean 01:08:33 / #: Wow. You know what's amazing?
Jennifer Prokop 01:08:35 / #: A lot of that was amazing.
Sarah MacLean 01:08:37 / #: Aside from that whole conversation, what's amazing is a lot of these interviews, it's as though no one has ever asked these women to talk about their life in romance. A lot of people have not been asked about that.
Jennifer Prokop 01:08:53 / #: Right.
Sarah MacLean 01:08:53 / #: And so the stories are just wild.
Jennifer Prokop 01:08:57 / #: One of the things that is really persistent in this generation of authors that we've interviewed is kind of their success feels really predicated on whether or not they were lucky enough to find good people. It was really clear from talking to Catherine Coulter that she felt really lucky and found a lot of really good people, not just friends, author friends, not just her husband, but in publishing itself.
Sarah MacLean 01:09:22 / #: Yeah, an agent who she felt supported by, editors who she felt were really doing the best work for the books. I loved that story about The Cove about when she, the first book, I love the whole story about her sister giving her the idea, et cetera. But also, I loved that she went to Leslie Gelbman, who we've talked about before, because Leslie was Nora Roberts's editor and was J.R. Ward's editor Jayne Ann Krentz's editor. Somebody who is in the ether as an important voice in romance, but when she talked about Leslie Gelbman responding and saying, "Okay, so this is the plot, but where's the story."
Jennifer Prokop 01:10:03 / #: Yeah, tell me the story.
Sarah MacLean 01:10:04 / #: It's so remarkable when, you're right, an editor just could have easily said, "This is not going to work for you," and then, right, she doesn't get to travel down that path.
Jennifer Prokop 01:10:19 / #: I think that part, I was really interested in because it feels like, and I think this is, you obviously are in publishing in a way I'm not, it is clear to me when I talk to people, to other authors now that there's still a real sense of it takes a village to be a successful author in publishing and who is that village and who's supporting you or your awareness of them as people that have helped you along the way and how long-standing. Her talking about Robert Gottlieb's many, his kids and his wife and the way that she knows people.
Sarah MacLean 01:10:57 / #: She's outlasted so many people in his life and these relationships, it feels different in a lot of ways. Obviously, I'm a writer, so I don't know what it's like to be other things, but I did for many years have a job in corporate America and the relationships don't feel quite so personal in those jobs. But this long-standing editorial relationship, long-standing agent relationships, these relationships where somebody knows your kids and knows your family, and we talk about books being orphaned, authors being orphaned by their editors, and it really does feel that way.
Jennifer Prokop 01:11:36 / #: We now are smart enough and record these kind of right after we're done.
Sarah MacLean 01:11:41 / #: Immediately after the conversation.
Jennifer Prokop 01:11:42 / #: Just got off the, and so it's interesting, because the first thing you think of is sometimes, not necessarily, but I was really interested in her talking about the golden age of romance. Of course you wouldn't realize it at the time, but looking back that she could say, "Of course."
Sarah MacLean 01:11:59 / #: Well, just the way the story goes. Where she went to a lunch at the Plaza with sales and they offered her a giant deal for more historicals at this lunch at the Plaza.
Jennifer Prokop 01:12:14 / #: Right. That doesn't happen anymore?
Sarah MacLean 01:12:16 / #: Gone are the days, maybe it happens for someone else.
Jennifer Prokop 01:12:20 / #: Colleen Hoover probably gets lunch at the Plaza. I actually don't know if you can have lunch at the Plaza anymore, but the point is...
Sarah MacLean 01:12:27 / #: It really does feel like there was this moment in time when so many writers were just powerhouses. Now what's interesting is I was thinking as she was talking, "Oh, well there is something going on right now." There are writers who are powerhouses right now.
Jennifer Prokop 01:12:48 / #: Yes.
Sarah MacLean 01:12:49 / #: But it feels like many, many fewer, she talked about getting letters from her readers, but powerhouses now sometimes are grassroots, right? Like readers-
Jennifer Prokop 01:13:00 / #: Like from TikTok.
Sarah MacLean 01:13:02 / #: Yes, right.
Jennifer Prokop 01:13:02 / #: The readers have decided that this person is a powerhouse, but she didn't talk very much about readers.
Sarah MacLean 01:13:08 / #: No, no, no. For her, it was very much, she seemed to feel as though it was a top-down kind of-
Jennifer Prokop 01:13:17 / #: She was part of the publishing ecosystem, right?
Sarah MacLean 01:13:20 / #: Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Prokop 01:13:21 / #: I thought that was also just really interesting to consider the way our relationship with authors have changed, but at the same time, she's really plugged into Facebook. She updates it every day. This is not someone who isn't disinterested in the reader's experience-
Sarah MacLean 01:13:35 / #: No, not at all.
Jennifer Prokop 01:13:37 / #: That's one big thing that seems very clearly different.
Sarah MacLean 01:13:39 / #: Yeah. I was grateful to hear you talk about burnout, because it's something that I think a lot of us are thinking about right now, nine books in three years in the early 90s.
Jennifer Prokop 01:13:52 / #: That was a lot. That is a ton of work, and it feels like that was a huge ask from her publisher. I'm glad that she talked about just like her brain kind of just fizzing out and needing to have a moment of something completely different to rejuvenate herself.
Sarah MacLean 01:14:11 / #: I loved a lot of that conversation, because I think that she is one of those people who made a career of writing as a writer and has evolved by virtue of luckily, her own passions and the way the market demanded.
Jennifer Prokop 01:14:29 / #: Then that was interesting because we see the clear evolution from romance to romantic suspense to kind of thrillers. Some of that had to do with, now I can just write one book a year or one book every two years. But I was also really interested in what would drive her to go back and then rewrite books.
Sarah MacLean 01:14:47 / #: Oh, yeah.
Jennifer Prokop 01:14:48 / #: That was fascinating because she's a writer, right? She's a craftsman. We've talked about this before that, and I don't want to put words in her mouth, because we didn't ask her this, but we've talked about this sort of, some people think of themselves as artists, and some people think of themselves as craftsmen. It feels like a true craftsman's choice to say, "That book bums me out," which is what she said.
01:15:13 / #: I think there further evidence of that is the discussion of you can't revise if there's nothing on the page, the first draft does not matter. That's just the raw material. That's the thing, the artist is like, "Okay, I've got one shot with this huge block of clay to make my sculpture," but writers are different. I thought that was also really interesting to hear her process, and it doesn't surprise me at all. It's a bit of a segue that someone who herself is so funny and so sharp and so observationally on point would think that humor is a really key ingredient of making a book.
Sarah MacLean 01:15:51 / #: Oh my god, the hystericals.
Jennifer Prokop 01:15:54 / #: Oh yeah, that's perfect.
Sarah MacLean 01:15:56 / #: Hilarious. The fact that right away when I called out The Sherbrooke Bride at the very jump, she was like, "Yeah, we call those heroes assholes." We totally do, but things are different, but they are also the same. I think that there's so much about what she said, especially when she spoke about conferences and the craft workshops, and this is the only way you can do it and throw everybody else's book out. You only use mine.
01:16:24 / #: The one thing that seems to run through all of these conversations, I think to a person is don't let other people's rules impact your book. Your story is your story. I hear so often, and you do too. We see it constantly on Twitter and in writing groups and all over the place, these kind of hard and fast. You must do it this way. You must traditionally publish this way. You must independently publish this way. None of these people followed.
01:17:00 / #: I don't think one single person we've talked to for this series has followed the bouncing ball. They've all had some moment where they've of deviated. I love, "I had lunch with Hilary Ross and I told her I wanted to put sex in a Regency, and she said, go with it." It made me think so much of Vivian Stephens and how Vivian just kept saying, "Yeah, do you, and that's what makes the books good."
Jennifer Prokop 01:17:26 / #: What a conversation. That was pretty awesome. Life goals, it's great. It's great.
Sarah MacLean 01:17:35 / #: Catherine's latest book is Reckoning. It came out in August, so it is on shelves now. We will put in show notes all the books that Jenn and I have loved by her over the years, or some subset of the books that I have loved over the years by her, because I've loved so many of them. Obviously, with the caveat that these are older historicals, so enter with caution, they're going to be bananas. I can promise that.
Jennifer Prokop 01:18:04 / #: Look, if the author was calling them hystericals as she was writing them, then the amplification of that can only be more amazing.
Sarah MacLean 01:18:11 / #: Well, I said with her that I spoke with Sophie Jordan this morning and we talked about the grovel. She really does it. She knows the job. When it comes to a grovel, these heroes have to be broken or what did she say? Disciplined.
Jennifer Prokop 01:18:25 / #: They like it though.
Sarah MacLean 01:18:26 / #: The other thing Sophie said to me was talk about taking the finger, and I think that's true. I think anybody, when you dip your toe into these old Catherine Coulter historicals, that's what you're going to get every time. A real take the finger experience.
Jennifer Prokop 01:18:40 / #: Perfect.
Sarah MacLean 01:18:41 / #: I'm Sarah MacLean. I'm here with my friend Jen Prokop. This is Fated Mates and you can find us every Wednesday. Thank you as always. To our sponsors, Lumi Labs and Cara Dion, be sure to check out Indiscrete, Cara's book, right now in KU or print.
5.16: Snowed-In Romance
Happy New Year, Magnificent Firebirds! Our first episode of 2023 leans into winter — we’re talking snowed-in romances! What makes snowed-in different than forced-proximity? Why is snow different from other situational nature stuff? Why are so many of these stories novellas? How do authors use snow as a plot device, a ticking clock, or a starting gun? All that, and a plea for more snowed-in romances without the holiday angle.
We’re gearing up for a year full of interstitials, more trailblazers and other fun stuff. We can’t wait for you to see what we have in store. Thank you, as always, for listening. If you are up for leaving a rating or review for the podcast on your favorite podcasting app, we would be very grateful.
Show Notes
Of course we've talked about forced proximity romance in general, most notably with Christina and Lauren back in Season 2! But this time around, we're only talking about SNOWED IN.
That being said, snowed in is no joke. Our thoughts are with the people of Buffalo, who experienced major blizzard conditions last week, including four feet of snow. If you'd like to help, here are some suggestions, but we've also heard good things about the organization Friends of the Night People, which helps unhoused people in Buffalo.
A look back at that blizzard in Chicago, which was on Groundhog's Day in 2011.
Don't miss our deep dive from Season 2 of Managed and Fall by Kristen Callihan.
If you're in the DC Metro area, you can see Sarah and Kate talking about Georgie, All Along at East City Bookshop live or on zoom, Friday Jan 27 at 7pm.
Snowed In Romance Novels
Sponsors
Tibby Armstrong & Bianca Sommerland,
authors of Flawed Justice.
get it at Amazon, free on Kindle Unlimited,
or in audio wherever you get your audiobooks.
Visit Tibby at tibbyarmstrong.com & Bianca at im-no-angel.com
and
Kate Golden, author of A Dawn of Onyx
get it at Amazon, free on Kindle Unlimited.
Visit Kate at kategoldenbooks.com
S05.15: Omegaversity: Class is Now in Session with Ali Hazelwood and Adriana Herrera
As is customary, we’re celebrating New Year’s Eve here on Fated Mates with some of our favorite people in a fully headphones-in episode! Pour yourself a drink and pull up a chair, because Omegaversity is in session with professors Ali Hazelwood and Adriana Herrera!
Jen and Sarah get a crash course in this wild end of the romance/fan fic pool. We’re talking about mating heat (!), knotting (!!), butt babies (!!!) and loads of body fluids (!!!!). Seriously, loads of them. When we say headphones in, we mean it. Enter at your own will, abandon all hope, and bring in 2023 right.
Check shownotes for omegaverse recommendations, and enjoy, firebirds!
Thank you, as always, for listening. If you are up for leaving a rating or review for the podcast on your favorite podcasting app, we would be very grateful.
Show Notes
Welcome Ali Hazelwood and Adriana Herrera, let's just call them AH2, shall we?
The New York Times article about the Omegaverse, which is where a lot of us named Jen and Sarah first learned about so much of it. You can also watch this terrific series of videoes from Lindsay Ellis explaining the Omegaverse lawsuits: Into the Omegaverse: How a Fanfic Trope landed in Federal Court and Addison Cain's lawyer e-mailed me, and it only got worse from there. Also, the video essay The Rise (and Rise) of the Omegaverse by Rowan Ellis.
After the episode went live, one of our listeners, Ana Quiring, shared her terrific essay about why she loves the omegaverse. It's called Into the Omegaverse: Fan Fantasies on Gender Difference Without Women, and it's a terrific read!
Ali recommends reading this quick Omegaverse primer. Or this other list of how the Omegaverse world exploded.
You should read The Song of Achilles by Madeline Miller, which is a good example of how there are books out there telling the stories we want about the characters we love.
For your consideration: a list of recommendations of Omegaverse fics from AH2
A quick reminder to please check all tags and CWs as you explore the Omegaverse!
Ali and Adriana both agree that a great starting point for Reylo ABO is Can't Turn Off What Turns Me On by audreyii_fic. But there are tons of Reylo fics recommended by AH2. If you want ABO in the workplace + elevators, try Gonna Get Myself Connected by TourmalineGreen. If you want something sweet and fluffy try (I Want to See You) As You Are Now by walkingsaladshooter or your name (twine it with mine) by lachesisgrimm (olga_theodora). For an enemies to lovers Reylo vibe, Ali recommends like my heart longs for an ocean by hi_raeth. He's the Omega in sharpen your teeth and sink into me by Like_A_Dove. If you want your fic with a sidecar of knitting puns, try The Knotting Shop by crossingwinter. Some others AH2 agree on: Reclaimed by Betts, Juniper and Bergamot by SaintHeretical, and Abash the Little Bird by SecretReyloTrash.
Coveted by OptimisticBeth is a crossover between Star Wars and Mercy Thompson.
If you have a lot of time on your hands, try the Reylo ABO hereafter by voicedimplosives. If you want lots of voyerism with your Reylo, check out An Unexpected Vacation by tigbit
If you're looking for ABO but vampires, try a little death (goes a long way) by crossingwinter
Adriana recommends trying any Stucky fic by GiselleSlash.
Ali recs Hello, Heartbreaker by astoryaboutwar or The Chase by Tipsy_kitty. In this universe, everyone’s a werewolf and Ali says it's a great starting point for ABO, written for a fandom that has tons of amazing ABO fics. Another TeenWolf fic you might enjoy is
If you want to try some Sherlock fic (not with Lucy Liu, but Jen believes it must be out there!), check out The Breath Between Us and The Breath Before Us by fayfayfay.
Sponsors
Piper Rayne, author of You Had Your Chance, Lee Burrows
get it at Amazon, B&N, Kobo or your local indie.
Visit Piper at piperrayne.com
and
Alyxandra Harvey, author of The Cinderella Society series
featuring How to Marry an Earl,
How to Marry a Duke, &
How to Marry a Viscount
Available free in Kindle Unlimited
BONUS: Sarah's appearance on Failure To Adapt
Sarah recently joined Red Scott and Maggie Tokuda-Hall on their excellent Failure To Adapt podcast to discuss the Jane Austen’s Emma and Amy Heckerling’s Clueless. We thought you'd enjoy listening to it here, and they were gracious enough to let us share it with you.
The show’s current season is dedicated solely to Austen adaptations. Follow Failure To Adapt in your favorite podcast app to get in on the action.
Bonus: We Wish You a Merry Christmas...and a Happy New Year of Books
Happy happy holidays — our gift to you this weekend is a little bantr, a lot of book recs, and a wish that you get everything you want this holiday season, and throughout 2023. We’re so grateful for all of you…and we wish you the merriest, happiest, brightest, most joyful season. We hope you’re staying warm…see you on New Year’s Eve! xx Sarah, Jen & Eric
Don’t miss our holiday music playlist on Spotify and Apple Music.
2023 Books We’re Excited About!
S05.14: Band Sinister by KJ Charles
It’s our final read along of 2022, and we’re so excited to be talking about KJ Charles’s Band Sinister — one of Jen’s favorite books (she won the coin toss when we picked which of KJ’s books we were going to read). This one has all the things we love: found family, sexy rakes, gentlemen’s societies, meddling sisters, anonymous gothic novelists, hot doctors, and more. We talk about how KJ writes a beautiful book, that seems to use all the necessary words and nothing more, and makes us think differently about the world and our place in it. Do yourself a favor and read it right now.
This is the last traditional episode of the year — Our next full length episode will be our New Year’s Eve episode and it’s a doozy — we suggest putting your headphones in right now to be prepared.
Thank you, as always, for listening. If you are up for leaving a rating or review for the podcast on your favorite podcasting app, we would be very grateful.
Thanks to Jaye Viner, author of Jane of Battery Park, and to Lumi Labs for sponsoring the episode. Visit microdose.com and use the code FATEDMATES for 30% off your order and free shipping.
Show Notes
Band Sinister is a stand alone romance published by KJ Charles in 2018. If you loved it as much as we did, go read Sarah's favorite, Wanted: A Gentleman, next.
Publishing is on fire, or it least it seems that way. The USA Today Bestseller List is gone, at least until further notice, but the New York Times list lives on. In other news this week, Book Forum is shutting down, and so is Buzzfeed Books. Oh, and the HarperCollins Union is on strike (we stand with them, and will not be doing deep dives of HarperCollins books until the strike is resolved).
So what we want to know is: Who is putting together Block Club Chicago and the Defector…but for books.
What’s a sawbones?
Oh, so that’s why Corvin, Raven, and Rookwood are called the Murder.
There is a whole lotta Latin in the Two Cathedrals episode of The West Wing.
Sponsors
Jaye Viner, author of Jane of Battery Park
get it at Amazon, B&N, Kobo or your local indie.
Visit Jaye at jayeviner.com
and
Lumi Labs, creators of Microdose Gummies
Visit microdose.com and use the code FATEDMATES
for 30% off and free shipping on your order
S05.13: Here Comes Santa Claus
It’s the Holiday Season™️ and for some reason 2022 Holiday Season has brought romance a sleigh full of Santa romance, which may or may not be a thing you’re into…but either way, here we are! Santa is doing all sorts of naughty business in these romances, and this one is definitely not for the kids. So headphones in, MFers!
While you might not get it in time for the holidays, there’s still time for you to buy the Fated Mates Best of 2022 book collection from Old Town Books in Alexandria Virginia, and get the eight traditionally published books on the list along with a Fated Mates sticker!
The holidays are hard, but this box is great. And you deserve it. FYI, you can also throw in other books (or a signed Sarah MacLean book!) if you’d like! Let us know what you end up doing with these fabulous books, and don’t forget to tag us on Instagram or Twitter when you unbox (#FMBestof22)!
Our next read along will be KJ Charles’s Band Sinister. We did not fight over which KJ Charles book to read because Sarah is all that is good and gracious in the world and she let Jen win. It is Scorpio season, after all. Get Band Sinister at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo or from your local indie.
Thank you, as always, for listening. If you are up for leaving a rating or review for the podcast on your favorite podcasting app, we would be very grateful.
Show Notes
According to Snopes, Coca-Cola didn’t invent our modern image of Santa, but they definitely capitalized on it.
Book Riot also noticed that santa erotica is on the rise, including a link to last year’s Caressed by Ice episode where we briefly discussed the phenomenon.
All about the krampus, Lapland, and why Elf on the Shelf is a cop.
Jen can't take credit for calling Romance "the final boss" because it was Mikki Kendall who said it first: "Romancelandia is the final form of the final boss in the game no one can beat." Am I trying to actually write out the tweets now isntead of just linking in case twitter dies and everything gets deleted? yes.
Eric wants to remind you about the Fated Xmas playlists on both Spotify and Apple Music.
Books Mentioned This Episode
Sponsors
Pocket Books Book Shop
a queer, feminist, anti-racist indie bookshop
online and in Lancaster, PA
Shop online at pocketbooksshop.com
Get their “Sapphic Surprise” romance box today!
and
Nikki Sloane, author of The Frat Boy
get it at Amazon, B&N, Kobo, Apple Books or your local indie.
visit Nikki at nikkisloane.com
S05.12: Twinterstitial: Twins in Romance
TWINS! For two romance readers steeped in 80s romance mythology, it’s hard to believe that it took us five seasons to have an interstitial on twins (a Twinterstitial?)! Jen has a theory about a romance twin continuum and Sarah jumps right back out of a boiling twin pot. It’s an exciting episode full of romance history, with plenty of recent titles to try. Just think: if you had a twin during the holiday season, someone else could deal with all your relatives for you! That’s the real HEA.
Buy the Fated Mates Best of Book Pack from our friends at Old Town Books in Alexandria Virginia, and get the eight traditionally published books on the list and a Fated Mates sticker! We love the idea of you gifting yourself this box, but maybe you’d like to slide into someone’s text messages with the link as a very excellent gift for you! Or…you can do what Sarah does, and buy the box and spread the love around—sending each of the books to someone on your list. FYI, you can also throw in other books (or a signed Sarah MacLean book!) if you’d like! Let us know what you end up doing with these fabulous books, and don’t forget to tag us on Instagram or Twitter when you unbox (#FMBestof22)!
Show Notes
You might not be descended from people on the Mayflower, but according to the BBC, at least 35 million people are.
People are getting taller over time, but someone forgot to tell Jen’s DNA about it.
Sarah’s new oven has a proving function (not that kind of proving) She made chelsea buns not cinnamon rolls.
Georgette Heyer's books are racist and antisemetic, so we don’t often discuss her, but False Colors is one of the first twin romances.
The 80s were thick with twins: Sweet Valley High, Flowers in the Attic, Twins, Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen from Full House, and The Parent Trap to name just a few.
Twins take a lot of energy to film, and here is a really cool video from Movies Insider explaining how filming twin scenes has evolved over 100 years.
Books Mentioned This Episode
Sponsors
Pocket Books Book Shop
a queer, feminist, anti-racist indie bookshop
online and in Lancaster, PA
Shop online at pocketbooksshop.com
Get their “Sapphic Surprise” romance box today!
and
Lumi Labs, creators of Microdose Gummies
Visit microdose.com and use the code FATEDMATES
for 30% off and free shipping on your order
S05.11: Best Romance Novels of 2022
The Best Romance Novels of 2022!
It’s the best and worst task of the year for us, because we read so many fabulous books over the course of the year, and choosing ten is hard for us, ok? But here they are — ten gorgeous books that we adored—books that delivered all the things we love in romance: sharp edges, sparkling dialogue, strong heroines and smoking hot chemistry.
Buy the Fated Mates Best of Book Pack in one fell swoop from our friends at Old Town Books in Alexandria Virginia, and get the eight traditionally published books on the list and a Fated Mates sticker! We love the idea of you gifting yourself this box, but maybe you’d like to slide into someone’s text messages with the link as a very excellent gift for you! Or…you can do what Sarah does, and buy the box and spread the love around—sending each of the books to someone on your list. FYI, you can also throw in other books (or a signed Sarah MacLean book!) if you’d like! Let us know what you end up doing with these fabulous books, and don’t forget to tag us on Instagram or Twitter when you unbox (#FMBestof22)!
Our next read along will be KJ Charles’s Band Sinister. We did not fight over which KJ Charles book to read because Sarah is all that is good and gracious in the world and she let Jen win. It is Scorpio season, after all. Get Band Sinister at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo or from your local indie.
Thank you, as always, for listening. If you are up for leaving a rating or review for the podcast on your favorite podcasting app, we would be very grateful.
The Best Romance Novels of 2022
Listen to past Best of episodes: 2021, 2020, 2019
Find us at:
Twitter - twitter.com/fatedstates
Instagram - instagram.com/fatedmatespod
Tumblr - fated-mates.tumblr.com
YouTube - youtube.com/@FatedMates
Sponsors
This week’s episode of Fated Mates is sponsored by:
Nancy Northcott, author of Mage Sentinel
Read it at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, or Kobo
and
Charlotte O’Shay, author of Forever in a Moment
Read it at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Kobo or Apple Books
and listen on Audible, or wherever you get your audiobooks.
S05.10: The Diamond Dogs Book Club: Romance Novel Recommendations for the Ted Lasso Cast
Two seasons ago we promised an episode where we recommend romance novels for each of the characters in Ted Lasso. Sarah’s brother is holding us to it! This week, we’re filling the TBRs of every single member of the Richmond Team…and Trent Crimm, of the Independent. It is a very chaotic journey…but one we hope you’ll enjoy.
F*ck Cancer.
Next week, we’re taking a break while Sarah makes Thanksgiving dinner and Jen waits for hers to warm in the oven (definitely the smarter of the two choices). We’ll be back on November 30th with our Best of the Year episode — Happy long weekend of sloth and excess to all those who celebrate!
Our next read along will be KJ Charles’s Band Sinister . We did not fight over which KJ Charles book to read because Sarah is all that is good and gracious in the world and she let Jen win. It is Scorpio season, after all. Get Band Sinister at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo or from your local indie.
Find us at:
Twitter - twitter.com/fatedstates
Instagram - instagram.com/fatedmatespod
Tumblr - fated-mates.tumblr.com
YouTube - youtube.com/@FatedMates
Books for Ted
Books for Beard
Books for Nate
Books for Keeley
Books for Jamie
Books for Sam
Books for Higgins
Books for the Diamond Dogs
Books for Isaac
Books for Colin
Books for Dr. Sharon
Books for Trent Crimm (The Independent)
Books for Roy
Books for Rebecca
Sponsors
This week’s episode of Fated Mates is sponsored by:
Forever Romance, publishers of Kennedy Ryan’s Before I Let Go
Get it at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo or your local indie.
visit Kennedy’s website at kennedyryanwrites.com.
and
The authors of Villain I’d Like to F—
Eva Leigh, Nicola Davidson, Joanna Shupe, Adriana Herrera & Sierra Simone
Get the anthology at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books and Kobo,
or in paperback from your local indie
and
Lumi Labs, creators of Microdose Gummies
visit their website at microdose.com,
and use the code FATEDMATES for 30% off and free shipping!
S05.09: Hold by Claire Kent: There is Nothing Soft in This Book
We’ve talked about this week’s read along so much it’s kind of impossible to imagine that we haven’t read it with y’all, yet! But here we are, finally cracking open Claire Kent’s brilliant novella, Hold. Set on a prison planet, this one dials forced proximity up to 11, and does the excellent job of answering just how horrifying a world can you write a romance in? The answer is very. Very horrifying. We talk about sex and consent and strength and humanity and how love blooms in even the darkest of places. Is it possible we needed this book this week? It sure is.
Content warnings for the book and headphones in for the episode, magnificent firebirds!
Get Hold at Amazon, free in Kindle Unlimited.
Thanks to the Meet Cute Bookshop in San Diego, CA and Lumi Labs, creators of Microdose Gummies, for sponsoring the episode. Visit the Meet Cute website to browse their Space Romance list, and use the code FATEDMATES for 30% your order at Microdose.com
Show Notes
If you like astrology, check out the CoStar app.
Claire Kent also writes as Noelle Adams. Hold was released in 2015 and is the first book in a series, the next books in the series are Release, Fall, and Rise.
It doesn’t take much digging to find out about the inhumanity and injustice of the American Justice System. It is absolutely unjust and racist to the core.
Alcatraz and Ellis Island are tourist destinations worth seeing, but also…who the fuck invented Alcatraz.
Emma on TikTok and abolitionism and romance. Also here. Just follow her!
Books Mentioned This Episode
Sponsors
This week’s episode of Fated Mates is sponsored by:
Meet Cute Bookshop in San Diego, CA
visit their website at meetcutebookshop.com.
and
Lumi Labs, creators of Microdose Gummies
visit their website at microdose.com,
and use the code FATEDMATES for 30% off and free shipping!
S05.08: Iris Johansen: Trailblazer
Our Trailblazer episodes continue this week with Iris Johansen, who began writing category romance in the heyday of the format at Loveswept. During her varied career, she’s written categories, historicals and now writes thrillers and crime novels.
In this episode, we talk about the founding of Loveswept, about how she learned to write, and about the power of storytelling. We also talk about the way her career has grown and evolved—about transitioning to thrillers, about writing the Eve Duncan series for 28 books, and about keeping it in the family and writing with her son. We had a wonderful time hearing these stories. Thank you to Iris Johansen for making the time for us.
Thanks to Callie Chase, author of Dishonor Among Thieves and Sara Wetmore, author of The Christmas Script, for sponsoring the episode.
Our next read along is Claire Kent’s HOLD. It’s a prison planet romance, so…you know…enter at your own risk. Get it at Amazon or in Kindle Unlimited.
Show Notes
People Iris Mentioned: Loveswept editor Carolyn Nichols, Agent Andrea Cirillo, Sandra Brown, Kay Hooper, Fayrene Preston, Roy Johansen, Catherine Coulter, Linda Howard, Kathleen Woodiwiss, Johanna Lindsey, Jayne Ann Krentz, Ann Maxwell.
The story of Roy Johansen's visit to the submarine at Chicago's Museum of Science and Industry.
Sponsors
This week’s episode of Fated Mates is sponsored by:
Callie Chase, author of Dishonor Among Thieves,
available at Amazon.
Visit calliechase.com for more information and signed books!
and
Sara Wetmore, author of The Christmas Script,
available at Amazon.
Visit sarawetmore.com
S05.07: Spooky Stuff! Halloween Romance
It’s spooky season and that means we’re reading spooky stuff! We recommend some of our favorite recent witches and demons and incubii and ghosts and vampires and others…and then we try to get to the bottom of why paranormal romance and monster romance doesn’t feel like halloween romance to but these books do? This episode has it all: celebrity witch talk, a welshman named Rhys who isn’t the one you’re thinking of, a peek into Sarah’s past that reveals a painting that just might have installed one of her buttons…she had a beer before we recorded, so stuff happens! This one’s all treat, no trick…but headphones in, y’all. This one isn’t for the kids.
Thanks to Terri Green, author of The Swordmaster’s Daughter and Alyxandra Harvey, author of How to Marry a Viscount, for sponsoring the episode.
Our next read along is Claire Kent’s HOLD. It’s a prison planet romance, so…you know…enter at your own risk. Get it at Amazon or in Kindle Unlimited.
Show Notes
Spooky Shit Nitro Stout isn’t a brand, it’s a process.
Although we’ve never done a Halloween episode before, we did have a monster romance interstitial in season 4 with guest Jenny Nordbak. Also, all of season 1, basically.
We came up with a new rule for what makes something a paranormal, which is it’s about whether or not the main characters are immortals or humans. Or, you know, the patriarchy.
And now time for a celebrity gossip interlude: Are Gisele Bündchen & Olivia Wilde witches? It's possible. It has something to do with altars & healing stones, [the Don’t Worry Darling controversy], Jason Sudeikis under a car, and Nora Ephron’s salad dressing.
We have two more Fated States phonebanks! Register here for Oct 29 at 3 eastern to Kentucky for Charles Booker, and Nov 5 at 3 eastern to Pennsylvania for John Fetterman.
Did someone mention a Welshman named Rhys?
Gather round and look at the painting The Nightmare by Henry Fuseli. Here’s a cool explainer about the significance of the painting.
As of Oct 25, 2022, the United States has 1,090, 632 dead from Covid. Worldwide, at least 7.5M people have died. Get boosted. Wear a mask.
Books Mentioned This Episode
Sponsors
This week’s episode of Fated Mates is sponsored by:
Alyxandra Harvey, author of How to Marry a Viscount,
available at Amazon.
Visit alyxandraharvey.com
and
Terri Green, author of The Swordmaster’s Daughter,
available at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Kobo, or Apple Books
Visit terrigreenauthor.com
S05.06: Redemption Romance with Christopher Rice
In the very best version of “third time’s the charm,” we are finally welcoming Christopher Rice to Fated Mates! A man of many talents, he writes fabulous contemporary romances as C. Travis Rice, and suspense, crime and supernatural thrillers as Christopher Rice. Today we’re talking Redemption Romance in honor of his most recent romance release, Sapphire Spring.
In this episode, we talk about how redemption romances and bully romances work, how tricky they are to write, and why so many of us are so drawn to redemption arcs — particularly when they involve sticking it to our childhood enemies. We had the best time with Christopher, who filled our TBRs…so get ready, because he’s definitely going to fill yours, too.
Thanks to Lumi Labs, creators of Microdose Gummies, for sponsoring the episode. Use the code FATEDMATES for 30% off and free shipping. Thanks, also, to emjoy for sponsoring the episode. Visit letsemjoy.com/mates for a 14-day free trial.
Show Notes
This week's guest is Christopher Rice, who also publishes under the name C. Travis Rice. He and his best friend Eric Shaw Quinn host a podcast called The Dinner Party Show.
The inspiration for the Sapphire Cove series came from Nora Roberts's Dream Trilogy. The first one is Daring to Dream.
Jean Valjean is the main character in Victor Hugo's Les Miserables.
A Molly House was a British term for a place where gay men could meet up. Like Victorian Grindr.
The Sapphire Cove Series by C. Travis Rice
Books with Redemption Arcs
Sponsors
This week’s episode of Fated Mates is sponsored by:
Lumi Labs, creators of Microdose Gummies
Visit microdose.com and use the code FATEDMATES
for 30% off and free shipping on your order
and
Emjoy, your audio journey to female pleasure.
Visit letsemjoy.com/mates for your 14 day free trial.
Stop Book Banning: A Special Episode of Fated Mates
In 2022, book bans in United States schools and libraries are at their highest since the ALA Office of Intellectual Freedom started collecting data. Bans are happening around the country, in every state, and disproportionately affecting books by and about LGBTQIA+ and BIPOC people. What’s more, challenges are likely underreported, because librarians who are resisting them are facing unprecedented workplace retribution and in some cases physical danger.
Book Bans are on the ballot on November 8th, in every state and local election, up and down the ticket. State legislatures, local town councils, county leadership and school boards are being overrun with candidates supported by conservative activists looking to limit access to books and ideas that offer identity, empathy, awareness, and power to young people around the country.
We’re concerned, so today, we’re releasing a special episode of Fated Mates focused on book bans across the country. We interview three experts on what’s happening, who is most impacted, and how we can all help. Show notes are extensive, and we hope you’ll take a look at them.
Thank you to librarians, teachers, and kids and families who are standing up and speaking out. We are proud to stand with you. And a huge thank you to our friends at the Big Gay Fiction Podcast for transcribing this episode.
Guests
Jarett Dapier, librarian, activist and author of Mr. Watson’s Chickens
Lily Freeman, activist and student in Central Bucks County, PA. Read Lily’s op-ed in the Philadelphia Inquirer and follow her instagram at ProjectUncensored.
Melissa Walker, political activist at The States Project, journalist, and Middle Grade and YA author of Violet on the Runway, Let’s Pretend We Never Met, Small Town Sinners and more.
Resources
The Youth Censorship Database at the National Coalition Against Censorship
Book Riot’s censorship coverage is excellent and updated almost daily. They have an excellent explainer for how to find and develop a local anti-censorship group
Intellectual Round Table Freedom Blog: an exhaustive list of links related to news about challenges, censorship, and banning incidents, developing issues, and controversies that is updated weekly
PEN America’s data on School Book Bans and Index of Educational Gag Orders
American Library Association’s Office for Intellectual Freedom, full of resources and toolkits on challenges and how to combat them
What’s happening in Central Bucks County, PA is happening all over the country. Kids, families and educators are protesting loudly
Advocates for Inclusive Education, for more information on what’s happening on the ground in Bucks County, PA
A map from ALA Banned Books week at the University of Illinois Library, and another from Red Wine & Blue.
Teens around the country can get library cards from the Brooklyn Public Library. To apply for the card, teens can send a note to BooksUnbanned@bklynlibrary.org, or via the Library’s s teen-run Instagram account, @bklynfuture. The $50 fee normally associated with out-of-state cards will be waived
Learn more about the Book Ban Busters at Red Wine & Blue.
Ballotpedia is a resource for your local ballot and your local election maps
Vote.org, to check your voter registration, locate your voting place and more
How to Help
Educate yourself about the book challenge process in your school district: How it works, who sits on the book challenge committee, how those committee members are appointed.
If there are book bans and protests in your school district, attend local school board meetings and support students, teachers & librarians who are speaking up.
Tell your local public and school librarians they have your support. Write letters. Visit the library. Thank them for standing for intellectual freedom.
Research school board candidates in your district. Vote accordingly.
Consider running for something! Your school board and your state legislature need you! Consider this us telling you seven times! (We’ll phonebank for you!)
Vote to flip your state legislature blue. Rally your friends to join you in a Giving Circle at the States Project.
Donate to organizations (listed below) that support intellectual freedom and combat book bans.
Organizations to Support (and Volunteer with)
You can join PenAmerica, and your membership helps defend free expression, support persecuted writers, and promote literary culture.
Donate to the Freedom To Read Foundation and become a member. The Freedom To Read Foundation effectively conducts important first amendment legal work regarding book bans and censorship.
GLSEN, Creating a Better World for LGBTQ Students
Intellectual Freedom Endowment Fund at the American Library Association
The National Coalition Against Censorship, providing direct intervention for people and groups facing censorship
The States Project, helping to flip (or keep) state legislatures blue
The Trevor Project, supporting LGBTQ young people 24/7, all year round
We Believe in Education, a movement of parents and families fighting for students’ freedom to learn
The Most Banned Books of 2021
Gender Queer by Maia Kobabe
Reasons: Banned, challenged, and restricted for LGBTQIA+ content, and because it was considered to have sexually explicit imagesLawn Boy by Jonathan Evison
Reasons: Banned and challenged for LGBTQIA+ content and because it was considered to be sexually explicitAll Boys Aren’t Blue by George M. Johnson
Reasons: Banned and challenged for LGBTQIA+ content, profanity, and because it was considered to be sexually explicitOut of Darkness by Ashley Hope Perez
Reasons: Banned, challenged, and restricted for depictions of abuse and because it was considered to be sexually explicitThe Hate U Give by Angie Thomas
Reasons: Banned and challenged for profanity, violence, and because it was thought to promote an anti-police message and indoctrination of a social agendaThe Absolutely True Diary of a Part-Time Indian by Sherman Alexie
Reasons: Banned and challenged for profanity, sexual references and use of a derogatory termMe and Earl and the Dying Girl by Jesse Andrews
Reasons: Banned and challenged because it was considered sexually explicit and degrading to womenThe Bluest Eye by Toni Morrison
Reasons: Banned and challenged because it depicts child sexual abuse and was considered sexually explicitThis Book is Gay by Juno Dawson
Reasons: Banned, challenged, relocated, and restricted for providing sexual education and LGBTQIA+ content.Beyond Magenta by Susan Kuklin
Reasons: Banned and challenged for LGBTQIA+ content and because it was considered to be sexually explicit.
Books from our Guests
A huge thanks to our friends at Big Gay Fiction Podcast for transcribing this episode!
Sarah: So we've got an urgent off-Wednesday episode today, Jen.
Jen: Yeah. We've been working on this one for a while, everybody. You've heard us talking about this wave of book banning that has been happening all over the country. We are concerned about this at many levels as readers primarily, as parents, as a teacher, but also as romance readers. Anyone coming for sexual content writ large, as all bad, is eventually coming for romance. And we are foolish if we think that it won't, but also even if it's not sort of...I don't want it to sound like it's just, like, self-motivated. I think it is deeply worrying as a reader to live in a country where book banning is so widespread.
Sarah: Yeah.
Jen: And in a way that isn't just like people saying, "I don't want this book in the library," but that is being written into laws in ways that make it impossible for librarians and teachers to even talk about the presence of these books. It's so...I almost, like, lack the words for it because it's so evil to me. Like, that's really the only word I have for it.
Sarah: And antithetical to what we like to call the fabric of, you know, a nation. When we talk to people who...you know, constitutional purists, like, book banning feels like it's a hard limit, or should be a hard limit in America. It's funny because I just recently did an event with Hilary Hallett, who is a professor at Columbia of women's history. And during our conversation, it came up that in the United States, you can't ban a book before it's written. It has to be written in order to ban it. And that felt for a long time like it was the safety net, like, you can't ban a thought.
But now here we are, and we are in a place where important texts are being written, texts that are about identity, and about culture, and about hope, and that give students and other people, you know, of all ages access to empathy, and storytelling, and identity, and are being stripped from our kids' libraries and our public libraries. And so this episode felt really important.
It reminds me that we have not introduced ourselves. I'm Sarah MacLean. I read romance novels and I write them.
Jen: And I'm Jennifer Prokop, a romance reader, editor, and I'm a teacher.
Sarah: And you are listening to what we would like to call a very special episode of "Fated Mates." Because we've been recording it for a while, you'll hear from three really interesting people on this episode, people who are much smarter than us. And we felt that it was really important that this episode get out in advance of the election. Election day is the first Tuesday in November. And you can check your registration at vote.org, which is essential. Make sure you're registered. We need you at the polls in the United States. And we're gonna do this.
We're gonna hear from three people. We're gonna hear from an author and librarian who has a lot to say. We're gonna hear from a kid who's impacted every day by these bans in Pennsylvania. And we're gonna hear from an author and political activist.
Jen, tell us about our first guest.
Jen: So, our first guest is Jarrett Dapier. He is a Chicago guy. My friend Elisa set us up with him, so thanks to Elisa. He is an author and a librarian. And he also teaches a class at the University of Illinois, like, librarian school, whatever it's called, in censorship. So it was really important for us to talk to someone who has, like, the big broad scope not just of what's happening now, but of censorship, kind of the history of censorship in America. And he does a great job, I think, at laying out sort of what's happening, how it's impacting schools and libraries across the country, as well as teachers and librarians, and the legal ramifications of what's going on.
One other thing I guess I should say before we hear from Jarrett is our goal really with all three people, you'll hear us asking similar questions, is what can our listeners do? What can our listeners do? So we hope that as you listen to today's episode, that you are inspired to take some kind of action. And maybe all you can do is donate money, but writing letters, going to a school board meeting, you're gonna hear similar things from each person voting.
So our goal, everybody, like, we don't usually give you action steps, we give you books to read… is at the end of this, we hope that you will be inspired to do something. And one of those really important things is also, no matter what you are going to do, is to share what you have learned here with other people.
One of the things that I'm shocked to find, I think everybody is, that even though this wave of book bannings is happening, many people are unaware of it. They're unaware of what's happening in their local community, they're unaware of what's happening across the country. Or they feel like it can't happen in their local community, it can only happen somewhere else. And we're telling you that's just not true.
So we hope that you'll vote, you'll share the news, and that you yourself by the end will think, "This is something I can do." So I just wanna be really clear before we hear from Jarrett, like, you have a job to do, too, listeners. And that is to try and make this better in whatever way you can.
Sarah: Two, I just want to, before we start with Jarrett, point to show notes which will be filled with links. All of our guests gave us great links, great resources. Also, I wanna underscore, if you are curious about what's going on in your own community, you can visit the PEN America site, which has a comprehensive list as of now of book bannings and book challenges across the country. You will be shocked by the states where this is happening on the regular, including places like Vermont, which you would never expect to be on this list. So, yeah, it's important.
And, also we should say Jarrett is the author of a book called "Mr. Watson's Chickens," which is possibly the most delightful picture-book concept ever, about Mr. Watson and his partner, who have a house full of chickens.
Jen: All right. Without further ado, here's Jarrett.
Hello, everybody. So, as you know, we are talking about censorship this week on "Fated Mates." And we are lucky to have a very special guest with us. We're gonna let him introduce himself. This is a friend of...I have a friend, Elisa. They were really instrumental, their school librarian. And I was like, "Elisa, help me find the perfect guest to talk about censorship." And they said, "You need to talk to Jarrett." So, welcome, Jarrett, to "Fated Mates."
Jarrett: Thank you so much.
Sarah: Thanks for joining us.
Jarrett: I'm really happy to be here. Yeah.
Sarah: I said this before we started, but Jarrett actually wins Best Guest Award because he came with his own show notes, so it's terrific.
Jarrett: Like I said, also, I'm a librarian, so I have to come prepared.
Sarah: So, Jarrett, just for everybody, tell us a little bit about yourself, like, how you came to...you're an author, too. So, give us the whole frame. And then, why don't you bring us to how you came to be so interested in censorship, and what's happening now?
Jarrett: Yeah, of course. Again, thank you for having me. I've been really looking forward to this all week because things are so upsetting and so difficult right now that any opportunity to speak with people who understand what's happening, and why it's so severe and threatening to a lot of rights that that we hold dear or want to see strengthened, is important. And I think it's important to my own mental health. So thank you for talking with me about this topic.
So, yeah, I'm Jarrett Dapier, and I'm a librarian. I've worked as a young adult librarian with teens in the Chicagoland area since 2009. And I'm also an author of books for children and teens. So I have three picture books out. One is called "Jazz for Lunch!" The second is called "Mr. Watson's Chickens." And the one that just came out is called "The Most Haunted House in America."
And in one year, Chronicle Books will publish my first YA piece of writing. It's a graphic novel about an infamous censorship incident that occurred in Chicago Public Schools in 2013 when the administration for CPS sent out a directive to all schools to remove the graphic novel, "Persepolis" by Marjane Satrapi, from every single school, classrooms and libraries.
And a group of students, it was a almost totally student-led response, they protested and made a very big deal, and were quite savvy about including media and comic artists, and just alerting the public. And as a result, it became a lot bigger than I think CPS ever thought it would be. And they were instrumental in getting the sort of blanket ban mostly reversed. I say that because there was a caveat.
But it's a graphic novel. It's a fictionalization of that whole sort of string of events. But I remember when it happened in 2013, and I've always just felt really, really connected to that story. "Persepolis" is one of my favorite books. And I was really inspired by the teens who organized very quickly to fight back against the censorship of that book. So that comes out in a year, and it's called "Wake Now In The Fire."
Jen: Congratulations.
Jarrett: Thank you.
Jen: What this also tells me is that you have been interested in censorship for a long time.
Jarrett: Yes, I have. My first job out of college was at the ACLU of Illinois. And I was a legal assistant for the First Amendment project. And I was always, first and foremost, passionate about the rights of teenagers, particularly their rights to speech and freedom of expression. It really sort of professionally started there, but I also know when I was a teenager, I felt really passionate about it then, too.
Jen: I'm in my late 40s. And, like, in the '80s when I was a teenager, a really popular movie was called, like, "Field of Dreams." I don't know if you remember this.
Jarrett: Oh, yeah.
Jen: But there's this throwaway scene where the people in this small Iowa town want to ban books. And, like, they're clearly the bad guys.
Jarrett: Yes.
Jen: And it's like Kevin Costner's wife is like, "Is that who we are? Like, book banners?" And I just remember sometimes I think about that scene and think, what happened to my generation, that we grew up with a movie where clear...this was like a easy shortcut for, like, being a bad guy.
Sarah: And it's not like "Field of Dreams" was like a way-out-there movie.
Jen: No. Exactly.
Sarah: It's pretty conservative, like, small C movie.
Jen: Yes. And I keep thinking to myself like, what happened to my generation that, like, now we're the book banners? And I mean, obviously, not we, but when we think about, like, the history of book banning, like, what's happening now does seem qualitatively different in some ways? Is that true or does it just feel that way to me?
Jarrett: I think it is absolutely true. It's unique to our time right now. And that is because the sheer pervasiveness of book challenges and book bans in schools, and also public libraries, it's staggering, and it's nationwide. And it has varying levels of extremity...extremity, extremity, extremeness? You know what I mean?
Sarah: I do.
Jarrett: Depending on the place and, I guess, the sort of twisted imagination of the people who are organizing these bans. So it's nationwide and it's affecting school librarians, teachers, public librarians. It's definitely affecting administrators whose feet are being held to the fire by very aggressive people. And it's, most importantly, really harming teenagers' access to a wide variety of materials that I would argue are life-saving at times, and are definitely affirming for many, many teens.
And the thing about the people who are doing this is that they are organized, they're strategic, and they are well funded. And while a lot of it looks very grassroots, a lot of it is funded by conservative right-wing, you know, political action committees, as well as just private donors in places like Texas and Pennsylvania, Tennessee, so on, and especially Florida, of course.
But looking specifically at American history of censorship, I teach intellectual freedom and censorship at University of Illinois for their library school, and we were just talking about this last week. That while we can say that now feels different, we have to acknowledge the strains of authoritarian laws that have constricted, and ruined, and harmed the lives of people of color, women, LGBT folks, religious minorities, people with disabilities, you know, throughout the history of America to the point that those stories were not allowed to be published. Or if they were, it was underground or it was, you know, even sort of samizdat. That's, like, the Russian sort of, like, underground, like hand-copied zine style, you know, passed from person to person.
Jen: The way people read, like, "Animal Farm."
Jarrett: Exactly. And, so we have to acknowledge that when you look at Jim Crow and the segregation of public libraries, and the fact that, you know, people of color had to go in a different door, if they were allowed in at all, and their materials were garbage. And there was no open access to information for, you know, Black folks before the Civil Rights Movement. And just the country in a lot of ways is founded on censorship of perspectives that are not white, heterosexual, cisgendered, and male.
Sarah: And wealthy, right?
Jarrett: And wealthy. Yeah. And I was listening to your interstitial podcast in 2019. The things you talked about, the patriarchy, and the white wealthy male drive to control bodies and minds has been alive since the beginning, and is alive right now. And we're seeing it in a different form.
But one thing I think is true is that it's good news in a way that these stories are out there to be censored in the first place. Because 20 years ago, they weren't, especially not in schools. Maybe a little bit in public libraries, but publishers just weren't publishing, you know, more than a handful of Black authors writing for teens, or less than that. And certainly not LGBTQ materials or representation unless it was, you know, probably, like, stories that, you know, warned.
Sarah: Exactly. The dangers of this.
Jarrett: Exactly. But, yeah, I think what is different is just how unabashedly out in the open the sexism, and misogyny, and homophobia, and racism going on right now.
Sarah: Can you talk a little bit about what's happening from the perspective of the librarians who are really, like, front-lining this? Like, what is going on among all of you to combat this? Or, I mean, what's it like? Well, I mean, this is sort of a...I mean, what's it like being the person the kids are coming to?
Jarrett: So, I really feel for the school librarians that are being attacked right now, because oftentimes if a school district has a school librarian at all, it's just one. And so that person is in, you know, by its nature, a kind of lonely role already. And they are being scapegoated, absolutely, for so many things.
There's a intellectual freedom expert named Dr. Emily Knox. She's a friend of mine. But she always, always encourages people to try and think about what is behind the motivation to ban a book? Not necessarily because we want to justify it or excuse it in any way, although I do believe, you know, empathy is a very important force. But to be effective and to be strategic in countering it, we have to understand not just what it is on its face, but what is driving it.
And a lot of librarians right now, I just think, are feeling...well, for one thing, a lot of people are running from the profession, because they're getting death threats. In some states, they are being criminalized. So some states are passing laws, or hoping to pass laws that will criminalize a librarian for providing a material that the state or the school board has deemed obscene or pornographic. And this, number one, threatens jail time, but also the possibility of being ruined financially because of lawsuits.
And so you're seeing this...librarians in a lot of ways are a very vulnerable population. We don't have much political power. The school librarians are often on their own, though they have networks online and, of course, professional networks. But I think, to answer your question, we're feeling very demoralized and very scared. Personally, I think public libraries are a bedrock institution of democracy. And the fact that some are closing down because they're being defunded, and the fact that some are closing down because the staff just, you know, in one fell swoop, quit, which I don't blame them for, is really alarming and scary.
Jen: Like, I mean, obviously right now, if everyone could see our faces, we're all just like...it's so scary. The weight of this is so overwhelming.
Sarah: It is worth saying that Nora Roberts...we'll put this in show notes, but Nora Roberts a couple of weeks ago funded a library that was closed by the town board...
Jarrett: Yes.
Sarah: ...because of the materials within. And I love the idea that she just called them up and said, "How much does it cost to keep you open for the year?" And she wrote them a check. And someday...
Jarrett: Absolutely.
Sarah: ...I promise I'll do it if I can. But what can we do in the meantime?
Jarrett: And I do want to be sensitive to the interests of your listeners. We should talk about, like, what materials are being challenged and banned, because I think it directly ties into the interest of your listeners.
Number one, there have been 1,500 or more instances of book challenges/book bannings that have been reported to the Office for Intellectual Freedom at the American Library Association. That is more than has ever been reported to that office in the office's history, which is over 50 years old. And when I say 1,500, that's just reported instances. That's not 1,500 books.
What those 1,500 represent is probably thousands and thousands of books being challenged, removed, banned from school districts, classrooms, and libraries. And over half of them are young adult novels, a sizable sliver is adult novels for sure, but it's mostly children and young adult materials. And among children and young adult materials, it is materials that have even the slightest whiff of LGBTQ content or representation, the tiniest. And anything with that kind of representation is being deemed in, city after city, after city, in town after town, as pornographic or obscene.
So, one that I always talk about is Raina Telgemeier wrote a sweet, little graphic novel called "Drama." And it's for, like, third, fourth, fifth, sixth graders. And there's two boys who have a crush on each other. And I think maybe one kisses the other on the cheek, or maybe they just hug, but this book has been assailed as pornographic and obscene by hysterical parents and motivated school boards. And that's the thing. We have to acknowledge that they have targeted, like, extreme right-wing conservatives and Christians, you know. Or maybe they're all one and the same, but they have targeted school boards and library boards.
And so this is something I think they've been building towards for a while, but it's been a very big takeover. And usually when they just tip the balance of power, they go to town on the literature. And they have friends in town who bring challenges, and so on and so forth. But LGBTQ materials, absolutely, and then materials that depict, or show, or talk about, or feature characters of color. And then on top of those two, anything that deals with human sexuality.
A lot of the non-fiction books that are being targeted are books that provide just basic, respectful information about physiology, relationships, consent sex, and how it works. And if you look at...PEN America has an index on banned titles. And if you scroll through that...I was doing it yesterday. And it's not funny because it's so serious, but so many of these books on sexuality have titles like "It's Perfectly Normal," or, you know, "Sex." And they are written respectfully and appropriately for their audience.
Sarah: For "Field of Dreams" watchers.
Jarrett: Yes. Baseball fans who love Kevin Costner will love these books. But those are being removed completely from the shelves. And a writer in "The Washington Post" yesterday wrote something that, also, I was thinking about your listeners because romance readers are so passionate about the genre, and read so much. And I also teach a class on literacy and reading, and we talk about the romance genre as truly being a genre of readers, or the fan base is a fan base of true readers. And so many of them, as I'm sure you can attest, and I think you did in one of the episodes I listened to, read romance on your own, or motivated to read it, loved it, and it was your choice. It wasn't assigned to you, obviously. But you came to it on your own.
And this writer in "The Washington Post" was talking about what is different about now is that the books that are being targeted are overwhelmingly books that are available to teens and kids to choose to read instead of being assigned to read. And what we know about the motivation to read is that, number one, being able to freely choose your own book is crucial, and two, being able to see yourself or see some information that is identifiable or pertinent to you and your life, and your interests, those two things are the basis for the motivation to read.
So, you know, romance readers...romance has been, like, mocked and dismissed by critics and elites, you know. I mean, I don't think you can...maybe horror fans and mystery fans are, like, the other two fan bases, but I can't think of another fan base that, like, reads more books just from being in a library. Like, I know that and I've seen it, and having friends who own bookstores, you know.
So the fact that books that kids and teens can see themselves in and choose themselves are being yanked out of their hands is a disaster for literacy, but it's also a disaster just for their own education. And, I can't remember, one of you was talking about just learning about sex and body parts from romance books.
Sarah: Yeah.
Jarrett: And how that happened for you. And, so think about this country does such an abysmal job of educating children and teens about sex to begin with. And now, you know, any kind of mention of it or depiction of it in a graphic novel is just...it's verboten.
Sarah: Well, we talked about this on that episode, too, but, you know, understanding mitigates fear. So if we understand how our bodies work, which all of these books...which books like, you know, "Sex" teach us, then suddenly they can't use fear of what our bodies are and how they work to control us.
Jarrett: Exactly. Yeah.
Sarah: And these kids need that. I mean, they should not be learning about their bodies from romance novels. They should be learning about them from, like, real books.
Jen: Porn is easily accessible.
Jarrett: Yes.
Sarah: Yeah.
Jen: At least when I learned about sex from romance novels, like, it was deeply entrenched in the idea that, like, women and their pleasure were important. I learned that from romance. I didn't learn that anywhere else. If I learned about sex from porn, I don't think that's what I would have learned.
Jarrett: Absolutely.
Jen: It just, like, hurts. Everything in my brain hurts thinking about not every child is a reader. And as time goes on, less...like, there's so much competition for reading time.
Jarrett: So much. Oh, my God.
Jen: And as an adult, I'm already entrenched as a reader. Like, nothing's gonna take that away from me. But I have watched kids become less interested in reading over the course of a school year as they become really interested in something else. So when I think about what this will do, the long-term effects on an entire generation of kids who are told, "You aren't allowed to read the books that are interesting to you, that speak to you. That are real about the experience of, like, what it means to be in a relationship, to have human sexuality, that is not just like a binary. It only means this," it's painful for me to think about.
Jarrett: Me, too.
Sarah: Well, and empathy.
Jarrett: Absolutely.
Sarah: Like, raising a generation of kids who have no empathy or understanding of people outside of themselves. Which is maybe the point. I mean, it has to be the point.
Jarrett: Yeah. In a lot of ways, if you take it back to the patriarchy, which we have to, it's about like returning humans to being objects, you know, for the pleasure of white males. And easily manipulated and exploited. And that's the thing, is ignorance really begets suffering. And it's very ignorant to go attacking these books. But you're also spreading ignorance. And the irony is a person might be afraid, understandably, of a really wild and ugly world of imagery, sexual imagery online. A parent might be really upset about that and feel out of control. And I completely sympathize.
But the irony is that by removing well-written books about sexuality and relationships, you're sort of leaving the kids to only go looking for...because they're gonna go looking for information about it.
Jen: Yes.
Jarrett: And unless they're, like, naturally skilled at, you know, critically...
Jen: Discovering Scarleteen.
Jarrett: Yeah. Exactly. Critically surfing the web. Showing my Gen X roots by calling it surfing the web. But...
Sarah: The world wide web.
Jen: I support you.
Jarrett: Yes. Surfing the internet.
Jen: I think that, for parents who are not readers, there probably is nothing more threatening than seeing their children read books that they don't understand, or were not privy to, or did not...you know what I mean? And I will admit I also think, like, a lot of parents are wildly, to the point of hilarity, honestly, oblivious to what their kids can easily find on the internet.
So the book banning probably seems like, "Well, look, this book is in front of me, and I see that it's bad, and I don't agree with it." And it doesn't even occur to them what these kids can find in 0.3 seconds on the world wide web. And so there's part of me, too, that's like, it just shows also a really profound kind of ignorance about, like, what's out there.
Jarrett: Absolutely.
Jen: Like you're closing...it's not even like closing the barn door after, like, you know, the cow is out, or wherever that saying is. It's, I mean, like closing the mouse hole and the entire rest of the barn is open.
And as you said, and the thing I just want to reiterate over and over again, is, like, these books are the ones that are the safest. They are fact-checked. They are coming out of traditional publishing probably, if they're in a library. These are deeply researched. You know, these are people who've talked to psychologists and wrote there. Like, it's perfectly normal. You're not getting that from some rando site on the internet that kids aren't...you know, so it's just so backwards, if you love your children and you want them to be happy and successful. I am dumbfounded by it.
Sarah: So, Jarrett, we are going to talk in a bit with somebody about the political ramifications of all of this, how politics are impacted by, and are impacting this whole world. But for people who can't run for...you know, are not people who run for office, and, you know, people who... "Yes, I'm gonna go vote in November." But what can they do on the ground in their school districts, in their libraries, at their school board meetings? What are the things that our listeners can do today, tomorrow, next week to help?
Jarrett: Yeah. This is so important, because they're so organized and well-funded. We have to speak up and we have to show up. And absolutely, we need to look locally as much as possible. So, everybody needs to look locally, locally, locally. What is going on in your school district? What is going on at your public library? Who is running for school board coming up maybe this year or another year? Who's running for library board? What is their platform? Be very wary of the term "parental rights" because that's code for suppressing all of the stuff we've talked about today.
So find out about upcoming elections and do everything you can to support the people who are going to defend the right to read and the right to access information that children and teens need. One very tangible thing is, please thank librarians. Go into the library and tell them you support them. Because we do feel very lonely right now and feel very attacked. And honestly, a number of them feel extremely scared.
And I was just listening to a podcast the other day, or, no, it was an NPR interview with a librarian in Louisiana who was sobbing in this interview because her life has been threatened multiple times. And we shouldn't ignore the fact that predominantly this is a profession staffed by female workers. So that's another layer that, you know, makes, you know, them a target for scapegoating and attacks. But if you have children, please let your school librarian, if your school has one, know that you support them and that you are not down with this.
The Freedom to Read Foundation is an independent organization associated with the American Library Association. The Freedom to Read Foundation, they don't bring legal actions, but they join legal actions and reinforce legal actions to protect the right to read. And so, if you could donate and become a member of the Freedom to Read Foundation, it would be hugely helpful because they are all over the country, but they are a staff of, like, two people right now.
Make art and get it out in any way possible. You know, authoritarian systems depend on people, you know, isolating, not expressing themselves creatively, and not connecting with each other. And especially, they suppress art. So, especially if you're not in one of, like, the elite centers, you know, LA, Chicago, New York, definitely make art because your perspective and your point of view is important, and we need that in every community.
So, part of showing up, too, is if there is a challenge going on in your community, show up at those school board meetings to speak out to defend the materials being challenged. Because more often than not, it's just the teens showing up, and sometimes it's, like, one or two of them. And they feel terrified because there might be 50 or 60 parents who are enraged. And then you have two teenagers speaking up to say, like, "Leave us alone, and let me live."
Jen: How can people find out? I mean, I guess I would assume, like, your local newspaper. But, you know, of course, local news is...
Jarrett: Yeah, I know.
Jen: ...you know. I mean, it's like when you think about all of the ways the safety net for this...
Sarah: It's a big mess.
Jen: ...has been removed, is there, like, a clearing house or a place that is kind of keeping track of that? You know what I mean? Like, someone could find out, like, "Oh, this is happening in my community?"
Jarrett: So "Book Riot" is doing fantastic work to update readers about censorship news on a weekly basis. So is the Office for Intellectual Freedom. They've got a long sort of clearinghouse list of new developments. But PEN America now has not only just exhaustive, constantly updated index of book bans that is searchable, so you can search for your own town, you could search for certain titles, certain states, they also have an index on gag orders, which affects librarians, too.
We didn't even talk about how in Oklahoma you can be arrested for providing information to a patron about where they can obtain an abortion locally, which would be considered illegal there. That's criminal now. Gag orders are a new sort of weapon where librarians aren't even allowed to talk about certain things. And so, PEN America runs these indexes, and you can search both book bans and, sort of, like, actions against librarians and information professionals.
And then...yeah, those are the big ones. For me it's PEN America, "Book Riot." Kelly Jensen there does amazing work. And then there's a person on Twitter, Tasslyn Magnusson. And I wanna say that the index on PEN America is her index that she created. And she may be the one updating it, but she is doing incredible work advocating for readers. So follow her if you're on Twitter. But, yeah, make your support for freedom of expression as visible as possible. Talk to neighbors. And so many people don't even know this is going on. I was talking to a neighbor yesterday who has a child who would definitely be affected by this, and she had no idea.
Sarah: Well, I also just want to say, because I spent some time this summer in a small town in Rhode Island, and there were school board election signs everywhere, which is a great tell because that didn't used to happen, where there would be tons of school board with whole slates. Like, "Vote for this entire slate of school board officials this November." So if you see those around, that could be a very easy red flag that something's up on your ballot in November.
Jarrett: Absolutely. And I think we need to develop language to push back against the really vile language that the opposition is using to vilify librarians. They're calling them groomers, and they're calling them pedophiles for providing materials that might have sexual content or might have LGBT content.
And I think we need to really push...nobody wants to engage with those terms because they're so terrible, but it's also incredibly insulting to call a librarian a groomer, especially to people who have been targeted by predators, and have survived assault. It's just despicable, and we need to call it out for what it is, as just like a despicable tactic. And we need to come up with wording that, I think, counters their arguments about, like, "Well, how can you defend this graphic novel when on page 67, there's a penis, right there? It's drawn in this graphic novel."
And I think a lot of people shut down because it's like, then the second you go, "Well, what's the context for it?" You know, then they scream, "Groomer," at you, you know. So they pull things out of context. And we have to find an effective way to counter it, but I think strength in numbers is the key. The more of us that are there to say...
Sarah: And you don't have to be a parent to go to school board meetings. You don't have to be a parent to thank school librarians. It's okay, you vote for these people, you have a place at those meetings as well.
Jarrett: Absolutely. You're part of the community that...I mean, you're a part of creating the community you want to see. So that's a great point.
Jen: And I would even say, even if there are no challenges in your town, it's still worth it for you to write a letter to your local library, to your local school saying, "I hope this doesn't happen here. And if it does, please know that you have my support that kids in our community deserve to have books that represent who they are, to see a different world. And I hope that, you know, if a book banner comes along, you'll say, 'but, like, we've received these letters in support." So you don't also have to wait for it to be a crisis in your town, you can preemptively decide to, like, sort of make your voice heard.
Jarrett: Absolutely. Yeah. I wrote a letter to the staff of Downers Grove Public Library, locally here, just to thank them for their efforts to support LGBT, not just materials, but programs at their library. And they just shut down a Drag Queen Storytime because they were...nobody knows the details but people have been saying it must have been pretty severe what was coming in on the phone lines and on email, that they would shut it down. So, yeah, the opposition is a mix of Christian sort of fascists and white power groups like the Proud Boys, and, I think, misinformed parents who feel out of control in a really out-of-control world. It's a sort of confluence of a lot of factors, but it's all ugly.
Sarah: But there are more of us than there are of them.
Jarrett: There are. That's the thing.
Sarah: I know.
Jen: We just gotta all say something. One last thing is, if you are in a town like this and your child's access to these materials has been compromised, the Brooklyn Public Library has committed to essentially giving a library card to every teenager in America, if they ask for one. And so, we'll put out those links in show notes as well.
I mean, the thing that's really hard, I also think it's scary and not something we can predict right now, although, you know, publishing is a business, and one that I think has shown...I don't know, they seemed very quick to roll over. I've been really unimpressed in a lot of ways with publishing's response to this. It is not hard to imagine that the pipeline of why literature is now deeply compromised.
Jarrett: Yes. I agree.
Jen: And so, I think the other thing that's gonna be really important, I mean...and I think people sort of like to think, like, "Well, I'll just buy a copy and put it in my little free library." But, you know, that is not gonna stop necessarily what's happening. And if it is clear to publishing that these books are just too much trouble for them to deal with, they won't acquire and publish them. And that is tragic.
Jarrett: Yes.
Jen: The tragedy of this is like a ticking time bomb that's gonna explode at different levels at different times, like, a month from now, a year from now, five years from now. And so the important thing, too, is for us not to give up, to keep saying, like, these books are important to us, important to our community, important to our children, important to us as parents and teachers, and Americans as opposed to just saying, like, "Okay, fine."
Jarrett: Absolutely. The more points of view, the better. Yeah.
Jen: Jarrett, what else should we know, you know, before we go? Any last words of hope? Are there ways in which...are there, like, good stories out there we can share? Something?
Jarrett: I personally have a good story. "Mr. Watson's Chickens," my picture book, features a loving same-sex couple. And it was challenged in a very small town in Alabama. And a mom there who's very, you know, tapped in to the library and what's going on in town contacted me to let me know. And she was certain this book is done for at the public library. Everything you've seen in the movies is what my town is like, you know, small town, Alabama. She said it's just a matter of time till when they make the decision.
But, she did just absolutely heroic work gathering together 16 or 17 letters of support for "Mr. Watson's Chickens," including her ex-husband who wrote about raising their son who's gay, and friends and neighbors. And she made this package she handed out to every board member. She spoke passionately at the school board meeting. And then shockingly, they unanimously voted to keep the book. And that was huge. We were shocked.
Sarah: Listen, that's one person.
Jarrett: Yeah.
Sarah: Everybody out there...it takes one of you. One of us can do that. We can save "Mr. Watson's Chickens."
Jarrett: "Mr. Watson's Chickens." And books like it. You know, a book came out called "Bathe the Cat," maybe a couple months after "Mr. Watson's Chickens."
Sarah: Well, that does seem dangerous, bathing cats.
Jarrett: It is. The cat does not wanna be bathed. But, you know, it's a family with two dads. And they're a loving family, and they're dealing with having to get ready for a relative who's coming to visit. And one of the tasks is, someone needs to bathe the cat. And the cat keeps, like, subverting that. But, like, a book like that is an absolute target. And it's so delightful. And what a wonderful hopeful thing for kids to just read books with representation like that and not even question it, because the story is really about the cat, and the chickens. There's no issue with the relationship.
Jen: And I guess that's probably what makes it so dangerous to people, right?
Jarrett: Yeah. Exactly.
Sarah: We say all the time, happiness is subversive. The reason why, like, reading romance is powerful because joy is subversive. And...
Jarrett: So many books, especially the YA books that are being challenged, especially the LGBT content, are very, like, affirming books. They provide visibility. And a lot of them are stories of self-acceptance. And "Gender Queer," the number-one banned book now in America, even the scene that parents object to as, you know, graphic and obscene, it's a scene of consent. It's a scene where two people are trying to figure out, "What works for us sexually given the fact that one of us doesn't like certain things, and the other one does. But we're figuring it out."
I mean, if you look at the scene as a whole, it's two people communicating openly and lovingly with each other, and with respect. And that is what I took away from that scene when I read it.
Jen: Yeah. I think it's also just really important to say if you see, you know, a list of banned books, and it has, I don't know, like, "Catcher in the Rye," listen, that's not what they're trying to ban right now. We are talking about, like, the wholesale banning, essentially, like, trying to pull us all back, 35 or 40 years to a time when every queer kid had to be in the closet, preferably for the rest of their lives. And we just aren't gonna go back to that.
Jarrett: We can't.
Jen: We can't. And what we say inside the industry, and you mentioned at the beginning, is, like, having these books on your shelves, in your home, in your classroom, in your library, it is suicide prevention.
Jarrett: Yeah.
Jen: And the idea that anyone would take...I'm gonna cry. Like, we just can't. We can't go back. We deserve better, our kids deserve better. And this is just the most urgent work of any reader, has to be making sure that every other reader gets to read whatever they want.
Jarrett: Absolutely. Thanks for saying that. And the fact that even online resources like The Trevor Project are being filtered out of schools, projects and organizations that provide information about suicide prevention, and the fact that you're not alone, and there is help available, is really grim. And one thing I noticed in the list, too, is there are a lot of books that if there's sexual assault involved in the story, or if the book is about that, it's attacked. It's removed.
And one thing that is different about this time is boards are removing books when they're challenged instead of leaving them on the shelves until we decide whether or not we're gonna remove them. So that's how parents are getting away with submitting a list of 380 titles that they're challenging, and then half the library's gone. And so this is happening more and more, and boards just don't seem to care that they're violating, you know, their own policies.
Jen: And presumably they're pulling these lists. These are just lists that they have. And so they haven't looked at the books.
Jarrett: There's a story of a northern Idaho librarian who was vilified in her community by parents who were angry at her. They came in to ask if they had "Gender Queer," and they didn't. And this parent had a list of books, and they didn't have any of them. But they somehow turned it around on the librarian that she was...she quit. I mean, she quit and is moving from the town she'd lived in for, like, 20 years. But they vilified her, and she wasn't even providing the books they wanted to ban. She just...
Jen: Was a librarian.
Sarah: Right.
Jarrett: Absolutely. So...
Jen: I don't know. I mean, like, we're really far afield. I said we'd be on for 30 minutes, it's an hour later. But I think the thing I think about a lot is, like, you have to believe. I hope all of our listeners believe, like, your child is his or her, their own person. And book banning is really instead about control. Is, like, "I want to control the type of person my kid is." And let me tell you, it just doesn't work that way.
Jarrett: No.
Sarah: No. They fail. This will fail.
Jen: Yeah.
Jarrett: Completely. They're in for a big shock. But I think, if nothing else, let your motivation be the fact that the people doing this are trying to control what your child can have access to. And they're doing it under the mantle of parental rights. And what about the rights of parents who have LGBT kids, or who are passionately allies of LGBT folks, or have family, whatever, I mean, or are people of color? What about their rights? They're talking about a subset of certain parents' rights.
Jen: Well, as you said at the beginning, in America, that's always been our subtext, right?
Jarrett: Yeah. But do believe one person can make a difference. I'm glad you said that because that mom in Alabama gives me hope, because it might just take one person knowing about this, hearing this podcast, and then doing something. That might be enough.
Jen: Yeah. So if you're looking for the one thing to do while you're all listening right now, we're all book lovers. We all know how important school librarians and public librarians were to our own reading journeys. It takes no time for you to google what's going on in your own town. And that's your job right now. That's the task you can do today, and go from there.
Jarrett: Yeah.
Jen: Jarrett, thank you so much for being with us this week.
Jarrett: Thank you.
Jen: We really appreciate it. Jarrett gave us tons of information in show notes, which you'll see. We'll also put it on social media. But this is really all hands on deck. If you care about reading, if you care about freedom to read, then it's starting in YA, it's starting with kids. It's coming for all of us. And that doesn't mean it's, like, selfish or self-motivated. I guess it maybe is. But I care about kids, and I care about making space for them to be who they are. And librarians do that more than probably anyone, so they really need our support.
Sarah: Thanks so much, Jarrett.
Jarrett: Thanks for having me.
Sarah: What a delight.
Jen: I know. Amazing.
Sarah: Look, there is a double-page spread in "Mr. Watson Chickens" of the house full of chickens. And it's too many chickens, is what it is.
Jen: Yeah. It's like Richard Scarry's Busytown, only chicken town.
Sarah: If I can find all the chickens.
Jen: So, anyway, I was so grateful to have him really paint the picture of, like...
Sarah: What's happening and how scary it is for librarians and teachers.
Jen: Yeah. Absolutely.
Sarah: We can't afford to be losing librarians in this country right now.
Jen: I don't think...again, I keep using the word "evil." Like, the very idea that you would fire people for supporting their students is, like, beyond for me. I can't even wrap my head around it really.
Sarah: And the big takeaway for me from the conversation with him aside from all the obvious things is, like, just being a presence, a supportive, positive presence for librarians, and teachers, and other activists in the community, but particularly, like, sending a letter to your local library. You know, dropping in and telling them that you support them, even if, even if it's not happening in your community.
You know, we talk all the time in writer circles about how essential libraries and librarians are to not only how we became readers, but also how we became writers, and how readers find us. You know, those of us who are here, and able, and lucky enough to make a living doing this work, like, we wouldn't be here without librarians. And, so...
Jen: Yeah.
Sarah: I, sort of, was instantly, sort of, thoughtful about who are the librarians who I can write a letter to right now, and say thanks to?
Jen: I think the thing about school board meetings, I'm thinking back to a conversation… I was at a conference away, like, conference in Las Vegas. And one of the authors was talking about how, you know, these kids mobilized to show up at these school board meetings. And, like, maybe one teacher, or one author, or whatever, is with them to support them, and then it's like all these rabidly angry parents who have been stirred up by, like, watching Fox News.
Sarah: It's scary.
Jen: That is scary. I mean, and I know it's hard, but if you hear that there is a action happening at a school board meeting, one of the most important things you can do if you are free is to go and just sit there, and be a support to those students who need to see that not all adults feel that way. So those in-person meetings can also be very contentious and angry. And it is hard for me to imagine how brave it must be as a high school student or an elementary school student to get up and say, like, "You should let me read the books I want," right?
Sarah: Right. So, let's talk about students.
Jen: Yes.
Sarah: Because our next guest is one. Lily Freeman is an 11th grader in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. And we discovered her because Jarrett actually pointed us in the direction of her incredible op-ed in the "Philadelphia Inquirer" about being Jewish woman of trans experience, and her experience with book bannings in Bucks County. Bucks County feels like it's the county that we hear about the most in the media, I think, because the school board and the superintendent have really made a coordinated effort to...
Jen: Allow book banning to go forward essentially.
Sarah: I mean, right? It's a very restrictive, really concerning level of book banning that's going on there. It's not that far from Philadelphia. Pennsylvania is somewhere we think of as a swing state, but it's usually blue. Like, it's an okay swing state. And I think Pennsylvania is a great example of, like, a real bellwether for what's happening for the rest of the country. But Lily is here to talk to us about how these book bans are impacting kids specifically, and families in schools every day, and how we as grown-ups, adults, and parents, and family members can do our part.
Jen: Hi. Good morning, Lily. Why don't you introduce yourself to our listeners?
Lily: Yeah. So, I'm Lily. My pronouns are she/her. Some stuff about me, one thing is that I am a GLSEN National Student Council member. And GLSEN is an organization dedicated to disability, racial, and LGBTQ justice in schools. I am also a Jewish female of trans experience, and I am an 11th grader at Central Bucks High School East. But what I like to think of most importantly is that I'm a daughter, I'm a sister, and I'm a student in school. It's more than anything else.
Sarah: So, Lily, we found you because you have been a really active participant in combating a sort of move toward book banning in your home county, Bucks County, Pennsylvania. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit about what's going on actually on the ground in Bucks County, because it feels like it's just one example of what's happening nationwide.
Lily: Yeah. So, in my opinion, I feel like there's always been sort of, like, a discriminatory culture in Central Bucks. When I first started my transition, it was a lot of, like, harassment and just general lack of support from the school. But I feel like with the pandemic and with the increase in a lot of these situations happening in other states, our district has kind of taken on those...how do I say it? Like, they've taken on the challenges that have been brought up, which aren't really supposed to be challenges.
So one thing that's happened is a lot of book banning and censorship happening in my area. First it started off with a neighboring school district called Pennridge. And they start by pulling the book, "Heather Has Two Mommies" off the shelf in December of 2021. And me and my family, we were a little concerned because this district was very close to ours. And it didn't really make sense why this book would be pulled off. Like, we read it. It was very innocent. It was just about a little girl and her two moms. Like, nothing anything inappropriate in that book.
So, what we really wanted to do is, like, bring attention to this and highlight LGBTQ literature in K-12 schools, and why it's so important to have on shelves, and why censorship and banning is wrong. So I started my own little project, which I'll talk a little bit about later.
But our book policy that my district has adopted now, which was just passed this past summer, so it's the most restrictive library policy in all of Pennsylvania. And it was actually stolen from a school in Texas. So they have this policy. What it is, it's very, like, highly restrictive, and most importantly, it's very vague. So people could challenge books, they have the right to do that.
But the main focus that a lot of groups in my area are focusing on is that these books with LGBTQ and racial themes are sexually explicit, nudity and sex acts. Which, it doesn't really make any sense because a lot of people are pulling excerpts from the books when… how the librarian said it before is they would take a look at the entire book and they would kind of score it on who it was appropriate for, what grades they were appropriate for. But just in general, the wording of this policy is very vague.
So the superintendent gets to put together a committee of teachers, librarians, and parents to decide if the book gets removed. And then if it does, what book does it get replaced with? Which, again, it's like, what kind of parents? Who has the qualifications to read these books and decide whether it's appropriate or not?
Sarah: So, what's going on? Because that was enacted at the beginning of the school year. No, I'm sorry, last year.
Jen: That's over the summer.
Sarah: Over the summer. Tell us what you guys started doing. Yeah.
Lily: So, right now librarians can't even decide on their own anymore what books get to go into the libraries. And the superintendent will now...or the superintendent and the school board now have a say with this, like, whole committee and stuff. And so new books that have LGBTQ and racial themes won't be able to get into these libraries.
Jen: And I think it's worth pointing out, and I share in other segments, like we've mentioned this. But, like, "Heather Has Two Mommies" is a great example of, if this book had had a heterosexual couple, a mom and a dad, there would be zero objectionable things about it. So what these bans are really objecting to is the very presence of gay or queer people, or people that aren't white, and in the most benign ways as parents, as community members, as people who have chickens. So this is the thing that is really scary about these bans, is there's no sexual content in these books. They're queer people just living their lives.
Lily: Yeah. And there's, like, this whole vilification of librarians and teachers, that they're trying to indoctrinate kids or stuff, but really it's just getting that representation in schools and just putting these books that are good to read. And I'll talk a little bit about that later. But, yeah, there's really just no trust for, like, the teachers. And, like, one of the reasons school board meetings where this policy was put into place, like, teachers were crying, and they're honestly just scared to speak out against these policies because of fear of backlash and...
Sarah: And of losing their jobs, right?
Lily: Yep. They have to choose between supporting their students or being fired. And I really think that these books are just so important for kids because not only are they like mirrors for these kids, but for other people, for all students, they're like windows into other people's lives. And they can be used as, like, a really good education tool. Like, what I like to say is that, like, these books lead to education. And when you don't have that education, you're ignorant. And ignorance leads to that hate, and it causes that discriminatory culture which was seen in schools before these policies went into place.
Jen: Lily, do you think...one thing that I think people maybe don't quite realize is how highly organized these groups are that are bringing these bans. You know, this isn't necessarily like a grassroots group of people in Bucks County. Like, it's probably a couple of people backed by these big organizations. So, like, one of the goals of this podcast for our listeners is, like, what can people really do? What kind of support do you and your students in Bucks County need?
But the truth is every student everywhere is gonna need this. These bans are spreading really fast, even to places that, you know, people might be surprised to find out. Suburban Philadelphia doesn't really seem like a place where, you know, it's like the most discriminatory, you know, laws in the state of Pennsylvania. That's not where I would have guessed they would be. So one of the things that you can talk about maybe with GLSEN or other organizations is, how can people help?
Lily: I think that the number-one thing that, I mean, students like me are looking for is just speaking up in general. That's the most important thing, because a lot of us students, even though we're, like, speaking at school board meetings, we're not necessarily being listened to, because it's the school board and superintendent that are making all these decisions. For example, like pride flags being taken down in classrooms, and also with our, like, student portal, about name changes and stuff, it just...we are kind of being, like, silenced a little about these things. We're not being listened to.
And actually, the superintendent came to each of our schools to ask us, like, what they should do, and this was last year. And we were like, all this horrible stuff is happening to us in schools. And I actually said to him, like, "Well, what are you gonna do about it?" And he was like, "I'll bring it up with the board." And then at the next school board meeting, he said, "Well, why don't we all just move on?" But clearly that's not the issue. And I think we really need, especially adults and communities to really say, "No. This isn't something we have to move on from. This is something that we have to learn from, and we have to continue to fight for."
I think, like, another thing is to vote. Voting is, like, a huge thing because...or even running for school board. We really need those people who are willing to educate others, and who are willing to learn for themselves. And I think those two things are the most important.
Sarah: Lily, in your school district, are you finding that there are a lot of kids who are protesting? And, you know, I saw that you've had walkouts. I wonder if you could talk about, like, what is the support network that you have, that Lily has in Bucks County working against these bans?
Lily: Yes. So, definitely, in my community, we do have a lot of adult and student support. I know there have been, of course, like, community events. And I've had really supportive teachers in my school, so that's one thing. But yet again, it's been really hard for… and their students.
Yeah. So I've been working with this group called Advocates for Inclusive Education, which has a website that lists what's going on in Bucks County and stuff. And a lot of the things that we do is just educating on what's happening because a lot of people don't know. Like, a lot of my friends don't even know that these book bannings are happening in my school, which is kind of crazy. But, yeah. So, along with that, well, what we're really trying to do is just speak to the silent majority, which, kind of, don't know about what's going on, or don't really know how to help. And that's, kind of, what we've been doing, and that's kind of the student support network right now.
Sarah: That's what we've been saying in some of the other conversations that we've had for this episode. There are more of us than there are of them, but we need to be louder.
Lily: Exactly. Yeah. And I think that with a lot of people, they don't necessarily want to get involved unless it affects them. And I feel like the word that needs to be put out is, well, this affects all people. This affects all people. This affects all education because, again, if you don't have this education, and if you don't learn to be kind and to accept others, then that ignorance leads to hate, and it leads to a discriminatory environment in schools.
Sarah: So, Lily, what's happening in November in Bucks County? Is there an election that is important? Are we electing out a superintendent? What are we doing?
Lily: Yeah. So, in November in my area, it's some school board members that are being elected out. So that's definitely something that we've been trying to get running about the election, stuff like that, even with the governor, and with the House, and just voting in general. I feel voting is so important. It dictates everything this year.
Jen: One thing I also feel is, like, really important to mention, we in this segment just mentioned "Heather Has Two Mommies." Is that the title, right? And that's a picture book. That's a book for little kids.
Sarah: Like "Mr. Watson's Chickens."
Jen: Right. But a huge number of the books that are being targeted are actually young adult books, books that you would choose for yourself. And unlike, you know, "Heather Has Two Mommies," which is just about a family, these books are really about kids and teenagers exploring their own identity, making choices for themselves. And these are books that don't get...you know, kids by that age are picking out books for themselves really at the library, or in the school. And it's really important to realize this, too, like, these fights are not about curriculum. These aren't fights where, you know, someone was teaching with...although they could. I would have no problem with it.
But these are books that are, like, free reading. These are just widely available in the library. And so it's especially pernicious because, again, to have adults say, "I don't want these materials available for anyone," as a choice. And so that's the other thing that, I think, people don't realize, is, you know, it's not targeted like, "I don't think this class of kids should be reading 'To Kill a Mockingbird.' I don't want any books that have to do with an identity that's not white, straight, cishet in the library at all." And that raises, like, what are libraries for? They're not just for, you know, that constituent group of people. They're for everyone. And I think that that's part of what is really scary about it to me. Yeah.
Lily: Yeah. Exactly. And a lot of people, I mean, especially, like, in my community, people that are for the book bannings, they just say, "Well, those students, they can just, like, buy it off of Amazon." They can do that, but not every student can. Not every student can go to a public library. Not every student has a supportive family to bring those books home to. And it's the school's job to best support those students as they're discovering their…
Jen: I think the other thing about people who are like, "I can just buy these books," is what they don't also understand. And I think we talked about this maybe with Jarrett, is the pipeline for these books is gonna dry up. Publishing is a business. And if they think libraries won't buy these books, they're not gonna take a stand because it's the right thing to do. They're gonna be like, "Well, we shouldn't publish these." And that's my other, like, big concern, I think, all of us, is fighting for these books now isn't just fighting for kids who are in school now. It's fighting for kids who are gonna be in school in 10 years and in 20 years. Like, it's keeping this robust and available for everyone, everywhere.
Lily: Yeah. Exactly. I think there's, like, this big question right now. It's like, where does this end? When is it gonna end where we're banning books and taking down pride flags, and stuff, you know? I'm reading "Nineteen Eighty-Four" in school right now, and I'm like, "This… is, like, crazily similar right now."
Sarah: That's so ironic to me that you're reading "1984" in school and the school district is doing this. I mean...
Lily: I know. And it's all about, like, banning books and media.
Sarah: It's like the school board has not read "1984." So that's a lot. I'm gonna just have to sit with that for...
Lily: All of these classics have that, like, "pornographic material" or, like, allusions to stuff that they're trying to ban from schools. I mean, it's very hypocritical that when it involves an LGBTQ couple or people of different races that it's seen as inappropriate.
Sarah: Lily, can I ask a more personal question about your family? Your mom is so active in all of the work around protesting these bans. And I wonder if you could just give us...because we have a lot of parents who listen to the podcast who wanna know, like, how to be the best parent they can be in situations like this. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about, like, ways your mom and dad, or, you know, your whole family have helped you with this.
Lily: I think something that has been, of course, taken away by all this stuff in the school district is just having a safe place. And my parents, they really strive to make a safe place for anybody. So if they want to talk, then they can talk, and just kind of highlighting other students' voices and helping to uplift people. I feel like that's the best thing that you can do to best support students right now.
Jen: Lily, anything else you wanna tell us about or, you know, organizations that our listeners can support?
Lily: Yeah. So, like, besides GLSEN, which I work with, I also have an Instagram account called Project Uncensored where we're sharing student stories and, like, different LGBTQ books. I would go follow that. And, of course, The Trevor Project and the National Coalition Against Censorship are also really good places, as well as that website I talked about specifically with Bucks County, advocatesforinclusiveeducation.org.
Sarah: We'll put all of that stuff in show notes, everyone. You'll have access to it all. And, Lily, you're the best. So, I'm watching you from New York City, Jen's watching you from Chicago. We want to help however we can, and you're doing amazing work. So thank you.
Lily: Thank you.
Jen: Thanks for being with us today, we really appreciate it.
I think it's impacting students the most right now, and so we really wanted to have a student voice on. And, you know, everyone, we'll put in show notes, Lily wrote an amazing op-ed for the "Philadelphia Inquirer." And I think that's one of the things where we first kind of found her. And, you know, just really teaching your kids...what I think people don't realize is you teach your kids to stand up by standing up yourself. And sometimes kids stand up and we have to support them, but ideally we're all doing it. We're all in it together.
Lily: Yeah. I mean, what my mom tells me the most is, like, "Even though you're feeling, like, down, and even though you are not being supported in schools, you're paving the way for other people to be supported in schools." And I feel like that's what really motivates me, is that it'll be an easier time for people like me going through schools.
Sarah: Yeah.
Jen: Well, you're a rock star, Lily. We love it.
Sarah: Thanks so much for joining us, Lily.
Lily: Of course. Thank you so much for having me.
Sarah: The kids are all right.
Jen: I know. I'm like, what an amazing kid. But also, I just think I know how proud I am of, like, my... Little Romance, when, you know, he does something. And I'm just like, "God, her parents must be amazing." I don't want to, like, give all the credit to them, but, like, what an amazing kid. Yes.
Sarah: I wanna bring my daughter to Bucks County to meet Lily and, like, hang out.
Jen: Yeah. Well, and the truth is, you know, Lily spoke really powerfully about, like, organizations that helped her and her fellow students, but also, you know, how hard it is to have adults, sort of, ask you...you know, like to have the superintendent come and have a meeting, and say, "How can we support you?" And then not do any of those things.
Sarah: And then, like, pat you on the head and send you along like Cindy Lou Who, like you don't really have opinions.
Jen: Yeah. So that's the thing, I think, one of the...it's just really important, I think, for us to hear from students because they know that the teachers that support them. And to have that support be something that can be litigated by the school, or that teachers can be punished for, like, that's our job as teachers to support students. And so to be snipping away the safety net under these kids as they are actively in school. And that takes a lot of bravery for Lily to be such an active voice, but also is really inspiring to hear her say, like, "I'm doing it because I know it's gonna make it easier for the kids coming after me."
Sarah: Yeah. I wanna talk about two things that came to me after we talked to Lily. One is, your school district, wherever you are right now, has a system in place for challenging books.
Jen: Yes.
Sarah: And in many, many school districts, part of that system is a board of...it's not the school board. It's usually sort of connected. There's maybe a school board member on it. But it's a panel of adults whose job it is to read these books when they are challenged. You, whether or not you have a child in the district, or whether or not you have a child, period, are able to volunteer to sit on these boards. It's a really powerful volunteer position that needs more people who...like us. Yeah.
Jen: I think the thing that's really become clear to me, though, is that...and this, like, will shock no one, is watching conservative, evangelical fascists essentially run the table using the rules that are...essentially, like, using the rules against us. Because in a normal school year, this rule exists. Like, these sort of, like, procedures exist. For like, you know, one parent who, like, "I'm worried about this one book," or whatever. But when people bring hundreds of books or list hundreds of books, you essentially are, like, jamming up the law.
Sarah: Sure.
Jen: And it's all bad faith. That's, like, a bad faith effort. They have not read these books. They don't actually have any kind of knowledge of what's in these books. They just know that they don't want books like this to exist.
They don't want books that make kids feel safe to exist. They want everyone to just crawl back in their holes so they can do whatever they want. And I feel really strongly like...I will be honest, and I don't know if it's ever gonna happen. But until school boards refuse to, like, let people use these procedures in this way, it's gonna continue to be really messy. I just feel really strongly, like, you know...I don't know if I'm explaining that right. Like, at first I was like, "Yeah, just use the procedures." And I'm like, "Oh, no. They're using the procedures." And it's different.
Sarah: You're saying we need to be ungovernable?
Jen: Yeah. Right.
Sarah: Yes, cool. But also there are the...you should know in your own district how school book challenges and public library book challenges work. Yeah. And if you have time to help be ungovernable by being on this committee, we love you, and we'll send you "Fated Mates" stuff.
The other thing that I just wanted to say, too, is the city of Brooklyn, my home city is providing young people across the country free library cards to the Brooklyn Public Library collection so that they can access eBooks through the Brooklyn Public Library anywhere in the country. So if you and your children or students, or friends of yours live in a district where these bans are restrictive and pernicious, as Jen says, you can access the Brooklyn Public Library and get a free library card from them. We'll put links to that in show notes. I'm really happy that my tax dollars are going to do this, be ungovernable.
Jen: Yeah. I mean, and that's it. It's, you know, look for the helpers.
Sarah: Okay. Oh, next. Our final person is Melissa Walker who, aside from being a friend of mine, is a magnificent YA writer. She's written YA, she's written middle grade. And after the 2016 election, Melissa got very active, became very politically active with an organization called The States Project, which, it's a fundraising organization that connects the importance of state legislatures to every aspect of our lives, the idea being that these laws, particularly laws around school boards, around book bannings. And lots of other laws...I mean, we just saw the overturning of Roe v. Wade, all these laws are built at the state level.
And this is a perfect time to talk about state legislatures because this is an off-year election. Off-year elections tend to get fewer and fewer voters out. The name of the game in off-year elections is voter turnout, and it's voter turnout for, yes, Senate seats and House seats, and sometimes governorships, but it's also voter turnout for literally your school board representatives in a lot of places, for your local district, for your local House, for your state House, for your state representatives, for your mayors, your, you know, town councils, all of this stuff up and down the ballot.
The State Project, and Melissa work really hard to flip these state legislatures that are eminently flippable. So we'll put links to the project in show notes. You'll hear more right now from Melissa. But this is really about what we have to do in November.
So, thanks, Melissa, for joining us.
Melissa: I'm so happy to be here.
Sarah: We're thrilled to have you. Can you tell us a little bit...why don't we start with The States Project first, which is where you are? And tell us what the project does and how it works.
Melissa: Yeah. Absolutely. So, at The States Project, we focus exclusively on state legislatures, which are an area of government that often gets overlooked. And we work to help elect majorities that are focused on improving people's lives. So that's electing folks into state capitals that are people-focused and ready to pass bills that will help. And we do that through the work of Giving Circles, which are people organizing their communities to… target state and help change the balance of power, and also through our broader community and amazing groups of lawmakers who are working on all of these policies as well.
Sarah: I think a lot of people when they think about, like, law making think of Congress. So, why focus on states? Why is that so important?
Melissa: Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I will say that I am a little bit new to this world, since 2016, which, I think, is an activation point for a lot of folks. And I really realized how important state legislatures were when, really, I attended a holiday party. I heard a New York state senator speak, and I started to realize that everything that he was talking about and everything that I cared about was being controlled in state legislatures and not in Washington D.C. So everything from education policy to environmental protections, to gun safety, to healthcare, to civil rights, and then to the core of democracy, voting rights, controlled state by state. And, of course, gerrymandering, the drawing of the district lines that decide who goes to Congress.
And I started to see state legislatures as the ultimate power center, because they were controlling the kitchen table issues. Things like, I started realizing I'm in my home state of North Carolina right now visiting my mother. This is the state where the bathroom bill was passed under President Obama, and I started realizing, "Oh, that was lawmakers in Raleigh who did that." And thinking about Florida and the stand-your-ground gun law that let Trayvon Martin's murderer go free, and realized, "Oh, that was Tallahassee that did that." And then it passed in 25 other states.
And things like the Flint, Michigan water crisis. I started to realize, "That's a Lansing problem, not a Washington D.C. problem." So I started to see the power of these state lawmakers. And most people don't really know who their state lawmakers are. Most people don't know who's in their state capital for them. They're not the names we see on TV.
But they have this immense power. And they also have the power, again, over voting rights and deciding who goes to Congress. So they touch the kitchen table issues. They also touch who's in power in Washington D.C. And it's a real lever of control that the radical right wing has built up and co-opted over decades, while we stared at Washington D.C. and felt good about the direction the country was headed in.
And, you know, I learned that from 2016, we lost nearly a thousand state legislative seats as we stared at Washington D.C. And in those states where right-wing lawmakers took over, they made people's lives bad. They defunded education, they put in right-to-work laws, they gutted environmental protections. But when people's lives got bad, they didn't say, "Oh, that must be my state legislator," because no one knows who their state legislators are, or sometimes even that they have one. But they look at Washington D.C. and they hit a change button there because that's what we hear about on the news every night. Little did they know that the roots of Trumpism were being seeded in state legislatures, and they are such immense power centers.
Sarah: And we're really seeing that right now in the...I mean, we've been seeing that for so many years. But obviously the reason why we're doing this episode is about a very specific kind of state and local problem, which is book banning. And obviously we've talked on the podcast about the ban on trans books and books that touch on sex and sexuality for kids. In a lot of these states, we've talked about the "Don't Say Gay" bill in Florida.
And then, of course, this month we've seen in Oklahoma a ban on both sexual assault awareness programs and romance novel book clubs in local libraries. Which, you know, feels like the sublime to the ridiculous in a lot of ways, but obviously is like a much larger question of sex and sexuality, and identity, and experience, that is being silenced. And so we're really interested in how these kinds of laws come to pass, and, you know, I'd love to hear your thoughts on how books, and libraries, and schools, and all of that gets sort of rolled together.
Melissa: Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, this has been happening for a little while. So, you know, it's nothing new to have certain books banned. And, you know, for a long time, like, in publishing, we've known that states like Texas, which is a huge book market, has requested changes in textbooks in order to sell to their education market. And because of the size of the Texas market, publishers are willing to do it. And so, you know, conservatives influenced what's been taught to all American kids for a while, you know. And that has been happening.
This new wave is something a little different and bigger. You know, these bans that target first, kind of, school libraries, and then school librarians and teachers, and then moving to public libraries, this is expanding. And really, like, make no mistake, these bans which can look very local and small, and battles to be fought district by district, are much bigger than that.
I know that the American Library Association has reported that in 2021, it recorded 729 efforts to ban books at school or public libraries, which is the most that had ever happened since they started tracking this in 2000. And, of course, the most challenged books were from black and LGBTQ+ authors or centered on characters from those communities.
But, you know, this fight is expanding to right-wing state legislative efforts to create statewide policies, which is what you're talking about laws designed to… more books, and the silencing of more of these voice voices. You know, Florida just rejected 40% of math textbooks for claiming they included things like social-emotional learning and critical race theory. You know, that just happened. And this is a long-standing multi-pronged effort to undermine faith in public schooling. It's part of the work to dismantle public education. It's a decades-long campaign, and this is one prong of the takeover at the state level for the right wing.
So, in thinking about it, you know, how does it connect to these other laws that we've been hearing about passing state by state? So, Oklahoma legislature just proposed a state law that would allow parents to seek up to $10,000 for each day a book is kept in their child's school library after it was nominated for removal. And that hasn't passed but it's been introduced. And it reminded me of something. It echoes the abortion bans that Texas passed, where you can have a… on your neighbor. And how terrifying is it that you can turn your neighbor into the government? I mean, these are wild, and they are part of a larger plan.
Sarah: So, I guess, I mean, that's a terrifying thing to think about, especially when you're...many of our listeners are women and non-binary people, marginalized people.
Jen: And also I would like to say, like, living in states that they love with their families, and, you know, having people sort of partly be like, "Well, why don't you move?" And I feel like this is such a grave misunderstanding of, you know, the world and the way it works, and fascism, and how it spreads. And I think one of the things that we are really concerned, I think it's so easy when it's summed up like that to have the, like, "let me go lay down now" moment, and feel powerless. And I think what we really want to give our listeners is a sense of power. What can we do? More than just raising money, maybe. What can we do?
Melissa: Yeah. Absolutely. So, thank you for asking that question, because I start with doom, but I'm really here to deliver some hope because I give a lot of hope. You know, and this is true for the book bans. It's true for the other laws that we've talked about today. And it's also true, honestly, for the death of democracy, which we also are reading a lot about lately at election subversion efforts, fraudits, all of those things. But this is all being organized through state legislatures. And there is a path to action here. And the path to action is changing the balance of power in state legislatures.
So, here's a sentence that'll give folks a little bit of hope. It is often cheaper to change the balance of power… than it is to win a single competitive congressional seat. Congressional races cost millions and millions of dollars. State legislative races do not. They are still local, they are still small, and there are many states that are very close to shifting majorities. And when you shift the majority, everything changes in the state. And state laws spread.
So states are meant to be laboratories for democracy, they're meant to be marriage equality going from state to state, to federal, or healthcare going from Hawaii to Massachusetts to becoming the ACA. And that's what they can be. Right now, too many are laboratories for other laws that are passing state by state. But if we can win back some of these majorities, we can shift the tide there.
And some more hope, there are many states that are close. In Arizona, we are one seat away in each chamber. One state house seat, or one state senate seat stops right-wing control in Arizona in 2022, in November. In Michigan, it's three state senate seats or three state house seats to tie, four to flip the chamber entirely, stopping right-wing control, or gaining Democratic control in Michigan in 2022. In Pennsylvania, it's 12 seats in the House on better maps than we've had in a decade. So there's real places for movement here and real places for action, in terms of focusing on state and local elections.
And I live in New York which is a state that has a majority, that is mostly focused on improving lives. There can always be improvements anywhere. But I really care about these other states, because this is where the foundational stuff is decided for our country, you know.
If we think about something like the ACA, we think about how, okay, that was the law of the land. But 12 states still haven't expanded Medicaid because their right-wing-led legislatures don't feel like it. So there are people who don't have the full benefits of the Affordable Care Act in their states, and that's because of their legislatures. And so what happens at the federal level, yes, has a lot of power, and carries a lot of weight. But when we feel frustrated at watching not a lot get through in Congress in D.C., we have to understand that anything that gets through gets implemented at the state level, and that is determined by who's in the majority there. Focus there, watch things move very, very quickly.
So, there is hope in focusing on these state elections, and knowing who goes to your state capital for you is a huge piece of it. Most people don't. I will admit that I did not, until I heard that New York state senator Daniel Squadron, who's also now...he's the… Project, by the way. He started it in the summer of 2017. But I realized that, you know, this is a place where people aren't looking, even people who feel really well-informed. So focusing there and knowing whether your state has a majority that represents your values is key. And then helping to change the bounce of power is key.
Sarah: Melissa, is there a website or somewhere that we can go...?
Melissa: Yes. So, to find your legislator, there's a great site called openstates.org. So you can go there and you can find your state legislator. It's actually kind of hard to find, so that's a great site resource. If you go to statesproject.org, which is my organization site, in our states, it'll show where we're targeting this year. And it shows the current balance of power, the stakes, the landscape, the opportunity, and then some clicks for how to get involved. We mainly work through Giving Circles, which is people organizing their friends and family to raise money to try to change the balance of power in a state. And it is about raising, you know, our electoral dollars. It is also about organizing, about learning how to bring attention and resources to something that you care about.
So we do kind of core trainings and storytelling, fundraising, and organizing, because those are the three key elements of leading a Giving Circle and getting involved. And when you have those skills, you'll be able to bring attention and resources to anything that you care about throughout, you know, in your local area, for a Giving Circle project, for all of these things. And you walk with more power and more hope when you do that. And when you walk with power and hope, people will walk with you, because everyone is looking for a way to get involved right now.
Everyone...the path that feels impactful, and organizing friends and family is incredibly impactful. So it is about giving a little bit, but then organizing 10 other people to give the same amount. Because that is where real power lies. And I have to be honest, we are up against a very, very well-funded right-wing machine, and money is the sharpest tool in the drawer… We have to level the playing field on that to win some of these races. So that is one way that folks can get involved in. We give everyone the tools to do so through our Giving Circles program. So that is a big way. I also have some other ideas for local involvement.
Sarah: Yeah. Tell us.
Jen: Good.
Melissa: Great. So, there's an amazing group called Red Wine & Blue. Their website is redwine.blue. They've created a resource to help people fight back against far-right extremism in kids' schools. So there's a ton of helpful information. They have a handbook that kind of tells how to organize a group within your community and get the message out on social media, how to speak out at school board meetings, and how to run for school board.
Sarah: Which is so important. For those of you listening and thinking about how to protect your kids and how to keep this kind of stuff from happening in schools and from your kids hearing about it in schools.
Melissa: Absolutely. Know what majority of your school board looks like. And if it doesn't reflect your values, run, or find someone in your community to run. There's a stat that says that women, to run, need to be asked seven times, or it needs to be suggested to them seven times. Men, it's more like once, or they usually...
So, you know, definitely, I know that running for office isn't for everyone, it's not for me. But I do also know who of my friends, every once in a while, say, "Thought about running? Thought about running?" Because that's really important, too. And I will say, you know, school boards, again, like we talked about, they're really important. They're a great way to get…
I would also encourage folks to run for state legislature because, again, these are still local races. It sounds bigger, but it's a part-time job. It pays very little in 40 out of 50 states. And, you know, people are going to their state capitals once a year for session and deciding whether to ban abortion, and deciding whether to expand healthcare, and deciding on gun safety laws for your state and your kids, and deciding on these curriculum decisions that, like Florida is making in this wild way.
And, by the way, those laws that have passed in Florida, we're now seeing pop up with almost the exact same language, state by state, by state, being spread. So if it's not your state, it can be. And we have to make sure that we are protecting democracy, electing majorities that stand for your values. And, you know, running for state leg is not a bad idea either, because school boards are important, but the rules of the road, the laws are determined at the state level. And the laws will rule what local is doing, what school board is doing at the state level. So that's where we have to secure these foundations.
Jen: And I would also...you know, I think the three of us...I live in Chicago, or, you know, kind of live in...I don't know, it feels like "safe," you know, "states." And, you know, they are still organizing in Illinois. So it's also really important to, you know, call your state legislators, you know, keep up the pressure that says, "This is, like, who we are and what we stand for." Continue to vote and support, because, you know, they are working just, you know, as hard as we are working. They are working the same way.
And so I feel like that's the other thing is, like, you know, what does it...I mean, I live in the blue bubble, but I would like to keep my state that way. So, you know, I can't just let...you know, if you are in that lucky position, you have to work to keep it that way. And I feel like in Illinois, you know, we had a Republican governor, and then now it's J. B. Pritzker, who is a great governor. And I really was like, wow. Those four years, you know, where we had a Republican, like, I noticed. And so, you know, that's the other thing is...I know I'm preaching to the choir, but it's, you know, don't feel like, "Okay, I don't have to worry about that in my state." We all have to worry about this.
Melissa: Absolutely. You feel it. You feel it when it's coming out of your state capital in a way that you don't from Washington D.C. I think that's, like, an important point for folks to know, you know.
And the other thing is this is 2022, and there's a lot of talk and chatter about the federal elections, and what's gonna happen there. And not that they're not important, but the thing that's not getting attention is actually foundationally important for our country. And it is where this right-wing movement grew. It is where we have to push back. And, like I said, it is also a fraction of the cost. These races, getting involved in them with your time, your talent, and your treasure, as the Giving Circles world likes to say, is a huge bang for your buck. Huge bang for your buck.
I mean, you know, after 2020, we saw things like, you know, Sara Gideon, who mounted an unsuccessful campaign against Susan Collins in Maine, finished her campaign with $15 million left over… And that's because this is where we focus, this is where we give emotionally. There will be so much emotional giving in 2022.
If you are organizing for a state legislature, and you're doing a Giving Circle, or you're working in a state, you know, locally, when you can channel people's emotional rage, sadness, donations into a pot, that actually has this impact and they can watch what it does, that feels really key, as well. It helps people come together and have a shared goal and mission, and, you know, impactful total to bring to these things. And it's really...like I said, it's the sharpest knife in the drawer at this point.
Jen: So, the other knives, the knives that are less sharp, I think that one of the things that we keep coming back to and we think about a lot here is, you know, we flipped the country in 2020 without Democrats even knocking on one door. But this year, we get to knock on doors. So all of the things, all of the people who joined us for "Fated States," the phone banking, the door knocking, the canvassing, the postcards, everything, that's all still in play, right? And is it in play locally, as well?
Melissa: Yeah. That's a great question. And it's huge, I would say. We have a very specific lens on state legislative races, which is that door knocking, door knocking, door knocking, door knocking. And specifically candidate door knocking, the candidate themselves going out on doors. We actually measure and we get weekly door knocking reports from all the candidates we endorse because it's a really key piece.
Jen: So here's something fascinating. Everybody knows that I moved in February. Within 10 days, our local person knocked on my door.
Melissa: Wow.
Jen: I mean, we're having primaries this year, just like everywhere else, so, you know, he was introducing himself and telling us about the primary. But he knew we had just moved in, and I was like, "This is wild." I mean, because we live in New York City, so...
Melissa: That's good organizing.
Sarah: Yes.
Melissa: That's really cool. Yeah. It's absolutely about that. And I would say that, like, door knocking is incredibly important. And, you know, the other things that you mentioned, too, it's all about how many touches a candidate has, how high their name gets. Something that often happens in states is that we organize for the state level races, so for governor's races, secretary of state races, attorney general races, and then we watch something happen like what happened in Georgia, which was incredible. It's like organizing on the ground for 10 years, Stacey Abrams in Fair Fight, and all the other groups that worked on that. Incredible, incredible, incredible. We win those two federal senate races.
And it didn't touch Atlanta. Atlanta still has a Republican super majority that then gutted more voting rights, closed more polling places, and still holds the power over voting rights in Georgia and over all the other things that we've talked about. And so, when people say Georgia went blue, we have to say, "Look, the frosting on the Georgia cake may be blue, but the inside is deep red. And unless we focus on these target districts to shift, we're not gonna be able to get to this foundational level of power."
So, I would ask folks to get involved and organize in phone banking, postcarding, door knocking, all of those things, and look at state legislative districts. And it's not easy to do. Whenever people are talking about gerrymandering, they're talking about congressional districts. But the truth is that state legislators also draw their own districts. They're different from the congressional maps, but they're drawing themselves back into power in many cases, and that's a key piece of why they're doing it. And so, looking at state legislative districts and knowing whether you're in an area that you could really make a difference in with your volunteer time is huge.
Sarah: So, is that something that The States Project also has for states that you're not, you know, super focused on? Where do we find those districts? And how do we understand those maps, I guess?
Melissa: Absolutely. Yeah. No. It's difficult. And I think it's difficult by design in a lot of ways. But I think it's about kind of just looking up where you live. Looking up your state legislator, and understanding, "What's the balance of power in my state?"
We have a lot of states listed on our website. If your state's not there, Ballotpedia is a great site to go to look at maps. And, you know, understanding, like, is there a place where I can work in my local area to knock on doors and try to shift a district? Or try to protect a district. I mean, these races are really won on the margins. That's something else. You know, that's one reason why it gives me a lot of hope.
In Arizona in 2020, you know, if we'd shifted 1,024 votes, we would have won in Arizona. And in Michigan, it was something like 2,600 votes over 3 districts. So knowing that, like, these are the margins, and this is what we're fighting for, it can go either way. We have to hold ground. We have to win a few more seats in these states. But shifting power would change everything.
Jen: And also getting involved even on the things that don't feel so political like joining your local library board. I mean, it feels like everything is political these days. And we've talked about this a thousand times on the podcast, but it's all politics. But the truth is that, you know, you can join your local library board pretty easily. That is not an elected position. So, thinking about those kinds of things, too. And that's a nice low-hanging fruit for somebody who's, like, interested and doesn't quite wanna run, or doesn't quite know how to get involved. It's a good place for passionate people to get started.
Sarah: And just to go back to your recommendation, Melissa, for Red Wine & Blue, those documents also have ways to speak up at school board meetings, ways to participate. So we'll put everything in show notes, guys.
Melissa: Absolutely. And I think, you know, once people do kind of tiptoe into involvement, which is really what I did, it can really sweep you away in a very powerful and positive way. And when you're the person in your community who kind of rallies people, who organizes people, who does that, it just gives you a lot of hope and you start to recognize that you're part of this long chain of people who've come before, and people who've had to push back and fight for democracy in ways that our generation has never known.
I mean, I will say I didn't know that I was stepping into a place where I was gonna need to tend to democracy for the rest of my life when I started doing this, but I know that now. And I know that it's an area where a lot of us feel tired and, like, we want to lie down and pull a blanket over our heads. But that is not the way, you know.
And for me, I always think to myself, like, I lead a very comfortable life. You know, the pain of what's happening in this country has not knocked on my doorstep yet. And so it is my job to not get tired, and to get up and do what I can, and, of course, to protect my joy around certain moments, like those Georgia senate races, yay. And then to say, now what's next? What else can we look at? What are the… we need to impact here? And I will say one more piece of hope is that...I don't know if y'all have talked about this yet, but the Brooklyn Public Library.
Sarah: Yes!
Jen: Yes.
Melissa: Yes. Okay, great. Shout out to the Brooklyn Public Library for making books accessible to kids around the country. It's really super exciting.
Jen: Yeah. It's a beautiful thing.
Sarah: Melissa, thank you so much for joining us.
Jen: Yes. Thank you.
Sarah: Thanks for making time for us. Thanks for being so quick to turn around and say yes. And thank you for all the work that you've done since 2016. I've known you from the jump, and I'm so proud to know you. So...
Melissa: Thank you. Thanks for all…
Jen: Can we just have, like, two minutes where you talk about your books? We didn't even say that you're a writer. Melissa is a fabulous YA writer, and middle grade. So just give us a little bit, a little taste of what you've got.
Melissa: Sure. So, I write mostly contemporary coming-of-age stories, some YA romance and some middle-grade dabbling into romance, I would say. And I think I miss writing, I have to say. My last book came out in 2018. It's called "Why Can't I Be You." It's available, if you all want to check it out. And I do miss writing, and I've talked to my writer friends about this a lot. And they've all said to me very comfortingly that life is good for writing, and that when I sit back down at my writing desk one day, I will have a lot more stories to tell, and writing is always there.
So...exactly. I'm really excited about it. I will say that, like, my inner introvert is, like, crying in a corner somewhere because...but I will absolutely return to it. And I miss writing. And just so grateful to, like, all the readers who are still reading and all the writers who are still writing, because I think it is a way for us to see each other, you know. And it's so important and so valuable. And we have to work to make sure it doesn't get taken away. So just appreciate all the organizing y'all are doing around this.
Jen: We will put links to Melissa's books in show notes so you can hear more from her in all the ways. So, thank you so much. Thanks to The States Project for all of the work that you're doing. Everyone, all of the resources that Melissa has referenced and that we talked about during this segment will be in show notes. And, Melissa, let us know if "Fated Mates" can ever help.
Melissa: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
Sarah: Feels like we ought to talk about "Fated States," Jen.
Jen: I think we should.
Sarah: Look at us. We're so...
Jen: Bringing it right back around to the states. It's like we planned it all in advance. We didn't think. That's what's great about everybody. So, everyone, one of the...so we've talked a lot about what you can do, how you can support your local school district, your local library, your kids.
We also think that we can support people in other states, and that is what "Fated States" is all about. This is our phone banking initiative where we are calling a different state pretty much every weekend to phone bank on behalf of Democratic candidates, and for abortion access. And, you know, although there aren't...we can't really phone bank to a library district. Like, trust me, we've...
Sarah: We're school board members in tiny places.
Jen: They're not enough numbers in the dialer for this. That's an inside joke for all of our phone bankers. We can get on Pennsylvania State, you know, voters' lines and talk about John Fetterman. We can call Georgia and talk about Stacey Abrams and Raphael Warnock. So we hope that if you are inspired by this, one of the other things you might consider doing is joining us between now and election day, every Saturday from 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, where we will be calling a variety of states, like, one state every weekend, or a different call in order to help keep the Senate and Congress blue, and to try and get governors to be Democratic in some of these places, again, that we feel are really close.
Sarah: Yeah. We have a friend who's a constitutional scholar, and he was here yesterday. And he said that one of the things that he's most concerned about with the Supreme Court over the next term is there's a sort of obscure reading of a law that would allow for secretaries of state and state legislatures to basically deny election results. And there is precedent at the Supreme Court level for that to potentially be legal, and he thinks that's not great, and we think that's not great.
So the answer is, don't give them the chance. Which means, Tuesday, November 8th is election day. You can go to vote.org to check your registration, to check registration deadlines, to check absentee ballot deadlines, mail-in ballot deadlines. And, of course, you can always volunteer for your local candidates. There are more of us than there are of them. And there are kids like Lily, and librarians like Jarrett, and people like Melissa working every day to do everything they can. And we can help them.
Jen: I know. A very special episode of "Fated Mates" is sometimes a downer, but I also feel really inspired by hearing people that are doing good work, and being told really explicitly what we can do to help. So, you know, it's only hopeless if you let it be. The thing is we can't afford that mindset or attitude. So we hope that you have heard some ideas today that you feel like you can, like, you know, turn off this podcast and take some action.
Sarah: Show notes, show notes.
Jen: That's what's really important.
Sarah: I'm gonna make it as easy as possible.
Jen: Get out there and read a banned book.
Sarah: Yeah. We'll see you on Wednesday when we're back on our bullshit.
S05.05: Moonstruck: A Wolf Without a Foot Redux!
It’s our 200th Episode and we’re finally doing the thing we’ve been talking about doing for 200 episodes! A full deep dive into one of our favorite — or possibly our favorite! — romcoms…Moonstruck! Moonstruck was released December 18th, 1987, one day after Sarah turned nine…auspicious Sagittarius energy! It’s set in Brooklyn, is a perfect romance novel on film, and features more than one wolf, bewitched by the full moon. It is everything.
Go watch it (you won’t be sorry), then come back here and listen to us wax poetic about it.
Thank you for being with us for 200 episodes…you’re the moonlight in our martini.
Show Notes
Moonstruck was released on Dec 18, 1987. It was nominated for several oscars. Cher won for best actress, Olympia Dukakis for best supporting actress, and Best Original Screenplay for John Patrick Shanley.
Everyone loves Moonstruck and there are lots of fun listicles and essays about the movie. Here’s a great thread from Vulture where a movie critic named Rachel Handler live-tweeted a rewatch.
Most of the film’s exteriors were filmed in Brooklyn, but many interiors were shot in Toronto.
Sarah mentioned an essay by Emily VanDerWerff, Moonstruck: Life in the In-Between, about the beauty shop scene and how it can be analyzed as showing the power of the female gaze in Moonstruck.
The last scene at the breakfast table is a good example of farce. An article about the making of Moonstruck and the ending scene played in the style of a farce, with lots of cool info on Loretta's grandfather, played by Feodor Chaliapin Jr.
Jen liked all that moon stuff.
When Cher won the Oscar, she was wearing a very memorable dress. May we all vow to live our 40s with her as our guide.
Learn more about Sarah's Start Your Romance Novel Today class on her website.
Sponsors
This week’s episode of Fated Mates is sponsored by:
Alyxandra Harvey, author of How to Marry a Viscount,
available at Amazon.
Visit alyxandraharvey.com
and
Forever, publishers of
Season of Love by Helena Greer
Find it at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Kobo, Apple Books, Bookshop.org
or wherever you get your books.
and
Lumi Labs, creators of Microdose Gummies
Visit microdose.com and use the code FATEDMATES
for 30% off and free shipping on your order
S05.04: What to Read If You Liked The Love Hypothesis...
Today we start one of our new features for Season Five: If You Liked…Read This! We begin with Ali Hazelwood’s The Love Hypothesis, a book that took romance and BookTok by storm last year when it burst onto the NYT best seller list and hung out there for nearly a year, bringing so many new readers (and Reylos!) to romance.
This one is full of tropes romance loves, and we take them topic by topic, recommending read alikes for everything from grumpy/sunshine, to academic romance, to STEM heroines, to that spicy sex scene that was a delightfully unexpected surprise! That, and we’ve got a bunch of Reylo fic recommended from Ali herself (check the end of show notes)!
Notes
ReyLo is the ship name for Kylo Ren and Rey from the Star Wars movies. And the actor who plays Kylo Ren is Adam Driver.
All about Pansexuality.
Censorship on TikTok is so widespread is has its own wikipedia page, which makes it rife for misinformation about sex and sex education.
Small point of order, Jen was at the LPI (Lunar and Planetary Institute), which is close to the Johnson NASA Space Center in Houston. Obviously, she wasn’t at the JPL (Jet Propulsion Laboratory), because that’s in California.
Ali Hazelwood’s Books
Pining Main Characters
The Professors
STEM Heroines
Great Banter
Microtropes
Reylo Fic recommended by Ali Hazelwood & Adriana Herrera
$15 New, $15 Used, Yours_Truly_Commander_Shepard
Abash the Little Bird, SecretReyloTrash
All Our Days, voicedimplosives
Can’t Turn Off What Turns Me On, audreyii_fic
Coarse and Rough and Irritating, frak-all
Composure, Skyelo_Ren
Count the Rings, lachesisgrimm
Cupcake Wars, crossingwinter
Embers, Sciosophia
The Girl in Terminal B, nightsofreylo
Juniper and Bergamot, SaintHeretical
Lascivious Weapons, CoraRiley
Let Go (Never Let Me Go), crossingwinter
Light Carries on Endlessly, lachesisgrimm
Misprint, JenfysNest
A Night for Firsts, TheAlchemistsDaughter
Shade on a Sunny Street, tigbit
Sharp Dressed Man, audreyii_fic
She Uses Tangerines, Yours_Truly_Commander_Shepard
So Long, My Adversary, Like_A_Dove
Something Beautiful but Annihilating, SecretReyloTrash
Why Don’t You and I Combine, Crossingwinter
Sponsors
This week’s episode of Fated Mates is sponsored by:
Blair Babylon, author of Twisted and Tangled,
available in print and ebook, wherever you get your romance,
and
Emjoy, your audio journey to female pleasure.
Visit letsemjoy.com/mates for your 14 day free trial.
S05.03: Marrying Winterborne by Lisa Kleypas: A Professional Driver on a Closed Course
It’s official! Sarah has broken the glass and taken Marrying Winterborne out of the vault and she has exactly as much to say about it as you expect! We’re talking perfect heroes, heroines who deserve to be revered, brilliant writers and plots that require the kind of skill you only get with Lisa Kleypas. Rhys Winterborne is nearly crushed by a building and still shows up at traditional calling hours (with 30 minutes to spare) to propose. An absolute king.
Thanks to Lucy Leroux, author of Making Her His, and Emjoy for sponsoring the episode. Visit letsemjoy.com/mates to access your 14-day free trial.
Show Notes
Maybe you’d like a very fast-talking man to describe the organization and countries of the United Kingdom to you, so watch this video Jen shows her students.
Rhys Winterborne isn’t the only one who thinks Wales is better than England.
Along with being a guy you definitely wouldn’t want to be your dad, the word Albion means England.
They say Helen of Troy started a whole war, but probably a bunch of dudes were just looking for something to fight about.
The state of Sex Education in America is bad and getting worse.
The oathing stone in weddings, and Rhys’s description of the word hiraeth, along with the TikTok Sarah mentioned.
We partnered with The Bawdy Bookworms, and selected A Caribbean Heiress in Paris as the book! Check it out!
Join us this weekend and every Saturday between now and the midterms as we phonebank for Democratic candidates.
The Ravenels
Sponsors
This week’s episode of Fated Mates is sponsored by:
Lucy Leroux, author of Making Her His, available in print,
in ebook and via Kindle Unlimited.
Visit authorlucyleroux.com
and
Emjoy, your audio journey to female pleasure.
Visit letsemjoy.com/mates for your 14 day free trial.
