S02.33: Enemies to Lovers with Tasha Harrison
Tasha Harrison is joining us this week to talk about an old reliable trope — enemies to lovers! This is one of those that we return to again and again — and of course, since it’s a Pandemic, we have to ask…if you’re into enemies to lovers and you haven’t read Kresley Cole’s Immortals After Dark, what are you waiting for? Season 1 is here for you! Otherwise, we’re freewheeling with Tasha on everything from the best Chris to the real inspiration for The Wire, so strap in. It’s a ride!
We love having you with us! — subscribe on your favorite podcasting platform and like/review the podcast, please!
Next week, we’re reading Sandra Brown! Jen and Sarah will be reading Texas! Chase, but it’s dealers’ choice! Pick your favorite old Sandra Brown or ask us for a rec on Twitter or Instagram! Maybe you want That Rana Look? Or Slow Heat in Heaven? Or French Silk? You can find them wherever books are sold (but the Texas! series isn’t in ebook format yet, sadly) — and don’t forget your favorite indie!
Also, if you love the music in this or any of our episodes, check out our Spotify playlist, which includes it all!
Show Notes
Remember that time when Michelle from Destiny's Child felland then got right back up?
Jen wrote about Enemies to Lovers for Kirkus.
Apparently, it's called a Proprietary Eponyms when a brand name becomes a verb or common noun.
The question of whether or not fiction should be "timeless" is one that authors deal with in different ways.
Robert Redford was a snack. Kevin Costner was named The Sexiest Man Alive, but Jen thinks the only time he was truly sexy was in Bull Durham.
Can there ever be a definitive ranking of the Chrises? Jen likes Pine, Sarah likes "the Australian one," and Tasha isn't interested in any of them. Sarah has Chris Evans blindness, but Tasha points out that he's got a little of the wild one in him. Check him checking out this reporter's boots.
We just had Christina Lauren on our show! Beautiful Bastard is better than Fifty Shades in a lot of ways, especially for that elevator scene. Either way, it's a good illustration of the myriad problems with a workplace romance.
Speaking of Lucy Eden, she and Jen had THE STRANGEST thing happen at the 2019 RWA conference.
Babies are complicated in romance and complicated in real life. Maybe what we're really going to see is a boom in "marriage in trouble" romance. Kids are complicated, too, especially if you buy the wrong poop bags.
Tasha's dad inspired the character of Norman Wilson on The Wire! The Baltimore paper The Afro-American can be read online. The real life Baltimore Mayor he worked for was Martin O'Malley.
These Italian Mayors want you to stay inside. If only all the American governors and mayors were the same. Cardi-B is worried about Coronavirus-- so stay home and stay safe!
S02.32: Taking the Heat by Victoria Dahl: Perfect Books are Perfect
We’re back to a more recent book that taught Sarah about contemporary romance, Victoria Dahl’s Taking the Heat. Use headphones for this one, because we’re talking about the best BJs in romance, the power of a great sex scene, and how we want you all to be in a sex pantheon. We’re also talking about flawed characters, true cinnamon rolls, and why Victoria Dahl is a fricken great author.
We love having you with us! — subscribe on your favorite podcasting platform and like/review the podcast, please!
In two weeks, we’re reading Sandra Brown! Jen and Sarah will be reading Texas! Chase, but it’s dealers’ choice! Pick your favorite old Sandra Brown or ask us for a rec on Twitter or Instagram! Maybe you want That Rana Look? Or Slow Heat in Heaven? Or French Silk? You can find them wherever books are sold (but the Texas! series isn’t in ebook format yet, sadly) — and don’t forget your favorite indie!
Also, if you love the music in this or any of our episodes, check out our Spotify playlist, which includes it all!
Show Notes
Sure, Sarah's new computer makes her feel like Lightning McQueen, but it's her new version of Scrivener that is the most exciting thing.
Jen isn't the only one who likes Starburst jelly beans.
Sarah has planner envy. We both love Blackwing pencils. If you also love Blackwing pencils, we highly recommend this video by comedian David Rees on Artisinal Pencil Sharpening. There's also a book! We don't quite understand washi tape, but we're happy for those who love it. If you want to talk planners, Nisha Sharma, Kate Clayborn, and Tracey Livesay are your people.
RIP BEA 2020, we look forward to 2021.
Jen is addicted to jigsaw puzzles, just like everyone else in the world.
The city junk problem is actually pretty great.
Victoria Dahl also writes as Victoria Helen Stone. Jen rediscovered contemporary romance with the Tumble Creek series, and also the Fast Track series by Erin McCarthy.
Gabe's job was to introduce eBooks to the library. We've come a long way, baby.
Jackson, Wyoming is the setting of this book, and apparently there's a lot to do there -- like skiing and rock climbing. It's all outdoorsy, so we can't really speak to it.
The big city to small town trope is a cornerstone of romance. It's just not a corner we visit that often.
The advice columnist is experiencing a huge resurgence these days, and in the age of the internet, everyone can give advice.
Some useful resources if someone you know is sharing their thoughts of suicidal ideation.
That Elizabeth Hoyt book with Winter Makepeace is called Thief of Shadows, and it also has a great blow job scene. In case you're into that sort of thing.
Watch the Ending of Crocodile Dundee if you've never had the pleasure.
If you are looking to try a new podcast app, we both love Overcast. Along with being a great listening device, you can use it to find and share any podcast clips online!
Preorder Daring and the Duke! Support your local indie bookstore, Sarah's is WORD in Brooklyn and Jen's is 57th Street Books in Chicago. And everyone's is Love's Sweet Arrow or The Ripped Bodice.
Next time, it's choose your own Sandra Brown adventure. We'll both read Texas! Chase, which believe it or not isn't on Kindle, but it is on audio! We'll also post a thread of some other Sandra Brown favorites. And if straight thriller is your thing, try OutFox, which is the one Sarah's mom enjoyed.
S02.31: Forced Proximity romances with Christina Lauren
This week, we’ve got two tremendous guests and we’re coming to you from four different time zones! Coronavirus silver lining — time has literally no meaning any longer. We’re talking to the brilliant duo Christina Lauren about their new book, The Honey Don’t List, and forced proximity romances — which are a crowd favorite…or at least were a crowd favorite until we were all forced into forced proximity!
Next week, we’re reading Victoria Dahl’s Taking the Heat. We know it’s tough to get it in print, but find it in e at your local library or at: Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo, or in print, mailed from your local indie (which is probably still shipping!)
We hope you’re staying safe!
Show Notes
Welcome Christina Lauren! Check out their new release, a forced proximity romance called The Honey Don't List. Perhpas, like Sarah, you need to understand the "honey do" list.
If you're worried about zombies running, there's an app for that.
Christina and Lauren said their cover reminds them of Lizzo's big inflatable butt at the 2019 AMAs.
Jen wrote a Kirkus column about why "only one bed" is one of the most delightful subsets of the "forced proximity" trope.
Amanda Diehl reviews for BookPage and also for Smart Bitches Trashy Books. Here is her inteview with Christina Lauren.
Sarah mentioned the great New York City Blackout of 2003, but it turns out a field in Ohio caused the problem.
"He is poison to everyone but her" is of course a reference back to Sarah's favorite IAD book, Sweet Ruin.
All about wheelwrights.
Wondering what it's really like for scientists on Antarctica is no place you'd want to be trapped, and certainly no place for a danger bang.
Outbreak and Contagion are the top movies on Netflix right now.
You can order The Honey Don't List with signed bookplates from Books a Million, not sure directly how to order from the one in Hunstville, AL, but try calling the store. Check out the audiobook of the Honey Don't List, starring Patti Murin and Jon Root.
While you're whiling away the hours in self-isolation, don't forget to check out our Spotify playlist, which includes the full versions of every song we've ever used on Fated Mates -- or head over and watch all the music videos of all those songs on our site!
S02.30: Nobody's Baby But Mine by Susan Elizabeth Phillips : Grandma has her Shotgun
We are feeling really proud of ourselves this week because Nobody’s Baby But Mine was the perfect isolation read for us both. The reread confirmed to both of us that this is, beat-for-beat, one of the best romcoms of all time. We’re talking problematic plots, the 90s, what we expect from jerk heroes and how Susan Elizabeth Phillips is better at flawed characters than anyone else in the game.
We love having you with us! — subscribe on your favorite podcasting platform and like/review the podcast, please!
In two weeks, we’re reading Victoria Dahl’s Taking the Heat. We know it’s tough to get it in print, but find it in e at your local library or at: Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo, or in print, mailed from your local indie (which is probably still shipping!)
Show Notes
Americans are stress buying chickens. Yes, eggs are more expensive, but this is not a good idea.
Speaking of chicks, now that Jen knows what happens to the chicks in the hatchery at the Museum of Science and Industry, she's back on Team Train Room.
One day, we'll be able to visit the Butterfuly exhibit at the Museum of Natural History again.
Nick Heath and Conor McGahey have figured out a way to keep those announcing skills sharp.
When it comes to the SEP-Multiverse, we like the whackadoodle one at the circus (Kiss an Angel), the one with Bobby Tom (Heaven Texas), the one with the lazy golfer (Lady Be Good), and the one with Sugar Beth (Ain't She Sweet).
What happened to the Lamont House romance collection?
Charlotte Stein has a suggestion for authors of contemporary romance.
Last year, Sarah wrote about technology in romance for the Washington Post.
We talked about Prisoner of My Desire with Joanna Shupe, which is another book about a heroine who has done something very wrong.
Maybe you're looking for actual secret baby books.
The one with bad sex is Call Me Irresistible.
After 9/11, Saturday Night Live and The Onion had to figure out how to be funny again.
Our next book is Taking the Heat (aka Cunnilingus Gabe) by Victoria Dahl.
TRANSCRIPT
Sarah MacLean 0:01 / #
Jen, I'm so proud of us. We picked the right book this week,
Jennifer Prokop 0:08 / #
We picked the right book! I have not been able to read all week. And I mean, I think that's all of us, right? It's so hard. And I picked this up to read and read it in one sitting.
Sarah MacLean 0:20 / #
I fell right into it. And then halfway through, I texted Susan, and I was like, Susan, I'm rereading Nobody's Baby But Mine right now. And I just had to text you to tell you that you are a genius. And this book is like, as wonderful as it was in when I read it the first time. I mean, it's better now. It's better because I'm older. Like, it's better because I get it more.
Jennifer Prokop 0:50 / #
I was telling Kate that I read this book the first time when I was 10 years younger than they were and now I'm 10 years older. So that is also really wild.
Sarah MacLean 1:00 / #
Yeah, it really changes things. Anyway. Welcome everybody to Fated Mates. I am Sarah McLean. I write romance novels and I read romance novels.
Jennifer Prokop 1:11 / #
And I'm Jen Prokop. I'm a romance critic, and I real shit-talker on Twitter.
Sarah MacLean 1:16 / #
A real big shit talker these days, man. You're like..
Jennifer Prokop 1:19 / #
I'm sorry, everybody. We're all trying to deal with it in our own way.
Sarah MacLean 1:26 / #
We're all just getting through. Jen is a Scorpio. It just happens sometimes.
Jennifer Prokop 1:31 / #
It's true. I've been actually trying to stay off because
it's hard. Twitter is hard. A side from just like a lot of like crazy nonsense information out there because oh, we're still in self isolation, just checking in. Yeah, it's day 15 here in New York. And that's a lot of days.
A lot of days.
Sarah MacLean 1:57 / #
And so a lot of people are just tweeting, whatever they're just retweeting like, whatever nonsense some rando has posted to the internet like it's facts. And a lot of people are just getting stressed. Like yesterday, there was a piece in The Times about people who are stress-buying chickens, baby chicks, which I think is interesting on a couple of levels. Like one: Do we really think we're gonna run out of eggs? Like is that a thing we're concerned about? Because I, we're here-- I'm here like reporting in from ground zero of the pandemic in America-- and I will tell you, we have eggs at our corner store. But also, it seems that people have not realized that when you buy a chick, it takes some time before it becomes a chicken.
So I don't know it seems like a bad idea to panic buy live animals and I tweeted about this and right now Twitter there. I've made like "Panic buying live animals Twitter" a little upset?
Jennifer Prokop 3:03 / #
Well, I, I want them to rethink it. Can I tell you one, I've had a, I don't really do-- I mean, we have cats and I'm down with that, but like barnyard animals are not my jam.
Sarah MacLean 3:16 / #
Why would you do that? We live in a city, it's fine.
Jennifer Prokop 3:19 / #
Yes. But at the Museum of Science and Industry, which is in my neighborhood, one of my favorite exhibits is... and I don't know how they do this, although I now have a friend who works there. And maybe I need to call her and get this information. I've always been curious. They have incubators, and every morning they put out the eggs that are going to hatch that day. And somehow they know because they're like written on the egg.. like you can see, it would be 31, or whatever. That'd be March, the March 31st eggs. And then you can just stand there and watch these chicks like work their way out of this. And it is...I could watch it all day.
Sarah MacLean 3:56 / #
Is it really cool?
Jennifer Prokop 3:57 / #
It is! My son never had the patience for it. It was right next to the train room and I always felt like it screwed me over because I could watch those all day. But I did, when this happened, I found myself really thinking like, but But what about the chicks? Like what? What are they gonna do?
Sarah MacLean 4:16 / #
I think they're probably fine. In fact, they're probably happier. They're not being stared at by by by a bunch of like weirdo children
Jennifer Prokop 4:24 / #
A bunch of Chicagoans who are like, What's going on here?
Sarah MacLean 4:27 / #
I mean, I have to say we took my daughter to the Museum of Natural History to the butterfly exhibit, which happens every year in New York City, in the February March, April months, and they get chrysalises sent from all over the world to the Museum of Natural History here, and you can watch butterflies hatch from the Crysalises, and then they basically turn this this section of the museum into like a butterfly room. These amazing, huge beautiful butterflies from all over the world are living inside this rain forest feeling-- like it's very hot and humid in there lots of big flowers and plants. And it's truly one of the coolest things I've ever seen like watching a butterfly come out of a cocoon.
Jennifer Prokop 5:21 / #
That's awesome.
Sarah MacLean 5:22 / #
Really cool.
And I had never seen it until this year, and I mean, it it's cool watching things hatch and like, it's nature's cool. I mean, I like to look at it under glass.
Jennifer Prokop 5:36 / #
To circle back to "don't panic buy" I don't want those chickens in my backyard or on my porch, I don't know,
Sarah MacLean 5:42 / #
if you live in a city and you are panic buying chicks, You should know that chickens are kind of dirty and they attract rats and you're not going to like what happens when you get rats in your yard and you live in a city because they're gonna come because they exist. There's like the whole thing. Anyway, I'm very concerned about this and I feel like, I have sort of mixed feelings because at the same time I'm really I feel like the silver lining of this whole thing is that New York City has run out of adoptable dogs and cats. And that's really great. Like, that's, like, that's awesome. And now actually probably is a pretty good time to get a puppy speaking as somebody who has a one year old dog that is annoying.
Jennifer Prokop 6:29 / #
Well, it gives you something to do every day.
Sarah MacLean 6:32 / #
I guess you have time to train your puppy which I did not have to have time to do which is why I have a terrible dog now.
Jennifer Prokop 6:40 / #
Well, can I tell you one other really funny thing and we'll put it in show notes is have you seen these videos of sports announcers instead of like, calling like matches, one guy he puts down two bowls of food for his dogs and then calls it like it's a sports match. The Same guy gets out and does something on the street. He called this "pigeon dressage," where he like is filming a group of pigeons and sort of like....
Sarah MacLean 7:08 / #
You can tell has been preparing for this for a long time. He's got two standard legs and and all of his toes. So I've asked him like most of the crackhead pigeons you see around these parts and you can see how keen he has to disassociate himself from the rest, but occasionally blending in momentarily as a feast on is it rice, seed probably vomit. What comes up must go down disgusting.
Jennifer Prokop 7:28 / #
It is. Honestly, it's great. Another American guy, if you send him videos of your cats fighting will like call the cat fight.
Sarah MacLean 7:39 / #
Like a boxing match. Yes.
Jennifer Prokop 7:43 / #
And it is really funny and I keep hoping I'll catch my cats fighting so I can have their fight called
Sarah MacLean 7:50 / #
Man. It is bringing out the very best and the very worst of the internet and also people. I really believe that. Some people are doing some really, really cool things. And some people are doing some really, really terrible things. So you know,
Jennifer Prokop 8:07 / #
Hey, speaking of a cool thing I'm doing. Yeah, I'm interviewing YA authors on TikTok.
Sarah MacLean 8:12 / #
Oh, yeah, you are.
Jennifer Prokop 8:14 / #
I'm gonna post that. We'll post that in the show notes too. And I'll be putting it on my Twitter. I've had like three or four people so far. But the whole idea is just like, if you have kids, or if you're a teacher or librarian, please share them. They're...TikTok videos can only be a minute long. And so they're really quick. It's like four little interviews with each author. And it's really fun. And I'm just like: let's get kids reading.
Sarah MacLean 8:38 / #
I totally agree. And, I mean, whatever. I wish there was more. I wish there was more for writers to be able to do right now. Like, I wish there was a way that I could help people. You know, writers are much less exciting than musicians or actors or whatever, but I'm super excited. About your TikTok project, and some of my friends have done it. And some of them haven't yet and I'm gonna yell at them. Sophie Jordan!
Jennifer Prokop 9:09 / #
People are in a pandemic. And so I can understand why.
Sarah MacLean 9:14 / #
But I saw that Zoriada Cordova did it, and you said Ali Carter's came in, so Thank you to you guys.
Jennifer Prokop 9:21 / #
Gia Krebbs, I think, and then the first one was, oh, Nisha Sharma. Yeah, she was my test case. Yeah, it was great.
Sarah MacLean 9:31 / #
Well, all of that said, we hope you're doing well world. We were really we there was such a great response to last week's episode about health care workers. And, you know, please keep thanking healthcare workers who are really doing the business, and not like the good business. You know, hard, hard business.
But let's get to it because you know, who else is doing the business?
Jennifer Prokop 10:01 / #
Man, I love this book so much.
Sarah MacLean 10:04 / #
So was it both? Was it a mutual pick? What is this book? Who picked this book?
Jennifer Prokop 10:10 / #
I think we definitely were like, let's do Susan Elizabeth Phillips. And I think we I think you were like Nobody's Baby But Mine. And I was like, Yes. Now I love Heaven, Texas. I love that wackadoodle one at the fucking circus. And it was funny, because I've been rereading today the one about the lazy golfer which I want to like put a titles Lady Be Good. I think is that one.
Sarah MacLean 10:36 / #
Lady Be Good and Heaven Texas are related. Right?
Jennifer Prokop 10:39 / #
Yes, yes. Everybody-- Bobby, Bobby Tom, which is?
Sarah MacLean 10:45 / #
Seriously, it's so amazing to me like, there are so many things about Susan Elizabeth Phillips that blow my mind. One of the ones that is probably more pedestrian than anything else, is the fact that she Can name her characters things like Bobby Tom? Or, Sugar Beth. And you're like, yeah, sexy here for it.
Jennifer Prokop 11:11 / #
So I think you you just said this one first and
Sarah MacLean 11:15 / #
Nobody's Baby But Mine is my first Susan Elizabeth Phillips book
Jennifer Prokop 11:20 / #
Really? Okay.
Sarah MacLean 11:23 / #
After which I immediately read every Susan Elizabeth Phillips book.
Jennifer Prokop 11:28 / #
So you didn't read this when it came out?
Sarah MacLean 11:31 / #
I did. I mean, I I read this a long time ago, but I don't. But I it was my first like, I was in college. Again. I thought this was earlier than it was, so I was in college. I would have been in college when it came out. 1997 is that what we decided?
Jennifer Prokop 11:49 / #
Yeah, I looked. I read this when it came out, for sure.
Sarah MacLean 11:54 / #
I don't know if I told the whole story about this, but I went to Smith. And at Smith, our house at Smith is our dorm at Smith. So the rules for for Smith are different-- like going to college at Smith is like going to college on another planet. If you haven't been to Smith it -- always my husband thinks this is like every piece of the Smith experience is just bonkers. And one of the things... so at Smith nobody lives in dorms. You live in houses. Every house has its own kitchen, with its own kitchen staff, which was amazing. And you have to live on campus all four years. If you don't, you have to get special dispensation from the college not to live on campus. And every house is divided into quarters-- so it's you know, first year, sophomores, juniors, and seniors. So there's one quarter of each class in your house and when you come in as a first year. Most people never move houses they start at House that they live in their whole time. So when you meet, when you see Smithies in the wild later in life, invariably the first question that we ask each other is "what House did you live in?" Because like that's the connection, the connective tissue. We don't have, We don't have sororities, every thing is a sorority at Smith. I lived in Lamont house -- shout out to Lamonsters everywhere! And Lamont had a case, and what happens is when you're a senior at Smith, and you're leaving, you have lived in the same, often and you have lived in the same house all four years. And so all your stuff like if you think about it, you've basically lived in an apartment for four years. And so your stuff has just stayed in the house over the summer, and you know, moved from room to room, but I lived in the same room for two years. So like you amass stuff the way you do in life, and it never goes home to your parents' house. It stays in storage until you graduate. And then when you graduate, the seniors in every house have what's called a senior banquet. And at that banquet, they "will on" all their junk to the younger women in the house, so
And one of the things that had been willed down from generation to generation in this house was a romance novel collection. And I inherited it from a senior when I was a sophomore, because I had been basically like taking books out of this romance collection for a year or two. And she willed it to me, and I kept it in my room, junior year and senior year, and I add, and it came with its own bookshelf, and I added a second bookshelf to it. And so people would just would come and they would take books out of take, you know, quote "take them out of the collection" and then when they had romance novels, they would add them back in. And so all these books have these like magnificent marginalia in them. And it was awesome. Like it was so cool and the marginalia was course like super feminist.
And I willed it on to my friend Mara, who will, who I'm told willed on to a sophomore when she graduated, and then we lost touch with it, and now the Lamont house romance novel collection has disappeared. We don't know what happened to it in the ensuing 20 years. But all of this is to say that one, I'm very sad that Lamont house collection is gone. And two, that Nobody's Baby But Mine had to have been in that collection that would have been where I would have found it. Somebody would have either put it there or I would have bought it and put it there. But all that is to say that Susan Elizabeth Phillips, like this was my first taste of her and I think it really changed the game for me. It made me realize, one, that single title contemporaries could exist. And they didn't have to be like, like Judith McNaught style contemporaries, like they could be funny; like this might be the first rom com I'd ever read.
Jennifer Prokop 16:07 / #
Yes. Now this was not my first Susan Elizabeth Phillips. I definitely... I was waiting for this one. So I just, look, this would have been, I would have still been in Texas for Teach for America. We moved to California later that summer, and I definitely was still... I didn't read as much when I did TFA because obviously I was completely overwhelmed all the time. But I had read Heaven Texas, which came out before for sure. Right, and the first Chicago Stars series book. So when this came out, I was like, this was, these were the years where really she was on my radar. I have no idea how we found out books were coming out before Amazon or like due dates I don't know if I was just in the Barnes and Noble and was like!!!! or what but this was definitely a book that I read when it came out and was super excited, and it was, Oh, God, those were good years.
Sarah MacLean 17:06 / #
I mean, but here's the thing. It's so funny. It's so funny and Susan is so funny and her writing is just top, top notch humor, right? Oh, yeah, the banter the back and forth between this couple is so cutting and hilarious like they are both entertaining each other and insulting each other all the time. So great. They're such a perfect match.
Jennifer Prokop 17:34 / #
Yes, it felt a lot like the kinds of sitcom humor we saw in the late 90s. When I read it this time, I was like, it's like Friends-- that sort of like really quick back and forth, the banter. And I think that would have definitely appealed to me for sure, right?
Sarah MacLean 17:51 / #
Mm hmm. And then on top of it, it just has that very real sense of like, you know, I've said this to you a bunch of times, I've said this about Susan all the time, but like Susan really nails real people. All her characters are so authentic, like her heroes are and still like really larger than life like our heroes, like Cal is such a fucking asshole. You both hate him and fully understand where he's coming from. Right? Yeah. And Jane to like, she does terrible, a terrible thing. She does a terrible thing.
Jennifer Prokop 18:32 / #
Yeah, I honestly was what was kind of like, this must have been 1987. And then I was like---1997! to write this plot!
Sarah MacLean 18:40 / #
She does a terrible thing. But like, then you're sort of like, but I kind of get it, and also she's the kind of character who would do this terrible thing and like, not entirely see how it was terrible. Until somebody was like you did a terrible thing. And I think... so why don't we talk a little bit about the plot? Because I think if you haven't read Nobody's Baby But Mine, it is bananas. Like it is a bananas premise, but also I think it's important for us to have a conversation about like, how when you come up with a premise like this? Talk about taking the finger!
Jennifer Prokop 19:23 / #
Shit, no kidding! Well, you know what, here's here's the thing. You and I talk a lot about taking the finger, we talk a lot, at least offline. We've been talking a lot about-- I think everyone is: how does contemporary romance move forward? Because Do you talk about what's happening now? Do you ignore it? Charlotte Stein, we're gonna mention on an upcoming interstitial, essentially tweeted out "it's okay with me if nobody ever talks about this."
Sarah MacLean 19:50 / #
I you know, Coronavirus
Jennifer Prokop 19:52 / #
Right. I speculated that maybe it will just, all the books will be kind of post-Coronavirus, like it has happened? But not living through it, but one thing I really think might happen is that we will just get the return to contemporaries like this, that exist in a "kind of" contemporary universe, right? where everything's just really supercharged but it's not real, the real tethers to to reality are about family and not necessarily about like job. Like the things that in this book are like, just bananas, you know, like, Okay, great. Sure.
Sarah MacLean 20:30 / #
Yeah. Well, I mean, I do think this is structurally really interesting, because I think one of the challenges with contemporaries is, and I see this, I see this push-pull, especially now. So now you've got the sort of, largely in the world of contemporaries where the stories are sort of "out of time," like the mafia contemporary that, like there's just bananas stuff going on all the time. Or the taboo contemporaries, where everything's kind of time slipped, versus what are largely the traditional contemporaries that feel like they are placed down in society now. And I think that what's really interesting is this push-pull that you see with a lot of authors who you can kind of tell are trying to figure out how to tell a story, and include conflict and challenge and tell a kind of compulsive, compelling story, but struggling with this idea of doing it in real life. So you we're starting, that's where we start to see the challenges around: Well, can an alpha really exist in a contemporary romance novel right now? Or are they just like, impossible to write in contemporary? Must they all be cinnamon rolls? These kinds of big questions about archetypes and how we do it, while we're writing a world that is struggling with archetypes.
Jennifer Prokop 22:00 / #
But I would also add, so you have that, you have those big overarching character questions. But I would also argue that you have a big setting question. And the way that often plays out is "do I talk about technology that exists now? Or am I dating my book By doing that?" So I can sort of mention texting, But if I mentioned apps... if I mentioned... So I think it's, it's contemporary is really being pushed and pulled on both ends, like, right, what are the kinds of stories we can tell? And then how do we place them down into the world without them being out of date, the minute they get published?
Sarah MacLean 22:39 / #
Absolutely. And I think authors are making two different choices with this, right? On the one hand, some of them are doing this kind of like, well, "we don't want to date the book" thing, which is limiting some of the stories or making some of the stories challenging, right? And some of them are saying like, fuck it, I'm just gonna write Tinder. which is gonna, Which is its own challenge. I mean, like contemporaries, I've said this 1000 times, but like, I think writing contemporaries is one of the hardest things you can do, because you are really struggling with, what, where the book is in the world. But what I want to talk about is this bananas plot. Because I think, because Susan on a number, so you and I were, just before we started recording, admitting that we usually don't read this whole book cover to cover.
Jennifer Prokop 23:26 / #
Oh, yeah.
Sarah MacLean 23:27 / #
I usually start at about 30 30% in when they get to the Mountain.
Jennifer Prokop 23:32 / #
Yes. Like skip the whole beginning.
Sarah MacLean 23:35 / #
I skipped the beginning. And that's because like, for me, when the money starts to come in. Right when they get to the mountains. And it's forced proximity, and they're stuck together. But, um, you know, which now feels like the right kind of book to be reading right now. But reading the first 30% of this book, this time was a real joy for me because Susan, What Susan is doing is she's laying out all of this plot that is truly problematic. Oh, by saying to the reader again and again, I know that's problematic, and so do you, but this is the story.
Sarah MacLean 24:15 / #
And I fucking love it. I love it.
Jennifer Prokop 24:18 / #
Yeah. I think we talk a lot about how we... I think that's exactly. I don't know what to say, except I'm just like humming because I'm like, here's the thing like, this is the story, right? Like imperfect people do imperfect things. And I and I feel like sometimes we are so worried about really problematic plots because we're worried it means authors means, I think authors worry it means "I'm saying this is okay." And I don't think we for a second think Susan Elizabeth Phillips thinks any of this is okay.
Sarah MacLean 24:55 / #
No, in fact, she says it she name checks it again and again in the text. She talks about so okay for people who haven't read the book, why don't we do the plot? You go.
Jennifer Prokop 25:07 / #
Alright, so it starts off with Cal Bonner. He is a 36 year old quarterback for the Chicago Stars. He's aging out of the NFL but refuses to admit it. He is really, he just wants to stay a young man. And one of the ways he does this is by dating young women. He's never seen on the arms of a woman who was not 20 or 22. And which not... I was that age when I read it, but I was still like... now I'm like: buddy. And so his friends, it's his his birthday. They know he's real sad and depressed about something. They decide that they're going to get him a woman. A hooker basically, right? A sex worker, excuse me.
Sarah MacLean 25:47 / #
But she uses those terms. Yeah, and also Jane doesn't like them.
Jennifer Prokop 25:52 / #
So what happens is...they don't know how to find a classy sex worker, right? Like they don't know how to do this. So They press into service a local bartender, a woman who is pretty much a caricature herself, right? She just wants to, she's like "I'm young. I'm a party girl, I want to bang football players." And if I help them find a classy woman for Cal, I can get it with this other guy. And she essentially serves up her next door neighbor, a physicist named Jane Darlington who really wants desperately to have a child. But she went to college when she was 14 and just doesn't know how to do it. And then, and her reason for agreeing is she was this 180 IQ genius her entire life and was shunned. And so she thinks if she has a baby with somebody really stupid that her, that you know, she'll essentially have a normal child. Some dummy, this dummo will like "even out"
I know when you're like, Oh my god for smart woman that's just all seems like a really bad plan, right?
Sarah MacLean 27:04 / #
Oh, it's so good though. It's so good. She's like, and she's saying it to Janie. No, no, Janie Joanie, the neighbor. And she's like, Look, I just I need somebody stupid. And Joanie is like, what? And she's like, she points to the television is like him, like, I need somebody like that. That Cal Bonner guy, basically. And Joanie's like, Oh, my God, it just fell in my lap. Like, yes, I can get you him. I can get you him.
Jennifer Prokop 27:37 / #
So here's the part that I think is really interesting. And then we'll, I don't maybe I'm jumping ahead. So there she, you know, shows up at this party and she's not really dressed.
Sarah MacLean 27:51 / #
His teammates like, deliver her to him. With a bow on! With a bow on!
Jennifer Prokop 27:58 / #
Oh, God. It's so awkward. Terrible, the whole thing.
Sarah MacLean 28:01 / #
But it doesn't feel sexy. It feels awful, awkward, and terrible. And that's it, again I, we're going to talk about this I hope later, but like that's part of why the book works so well. Susan never makes it sexy.
Jennifer Prokop 28:15 / #
Well, here's the other reason it works so well. She, here's the really unforgivable thing, she tampers with the condom and they have sex, and it really does feel, at that moment, unforgiveable, truly. She does not get pregnant. Two months later, she realizes she's not pregnant and she essentially tracks him down again for another go, and then it's consensual on his part and he just goes in without a condom and sort of can't believe it. And I will say, I think it's incredibly smart of her to play it like this, because this really unforgivable thing, had she become pregnant from the tampered condom. I think it would have, I don't think I would have kept reading.
Sarah MacLean 29:02 / #
Yeah, I think you're right.
Jennifer Prokop 29:04 / #
It's interesting .
Sarah MacLean 29:05 / #
I mean. I don't know that I would. Yeah. It's interesting because I noticed that this read, right? Yes. Like that the second time. He is consensual, bare. Right?
Jennifer Prokop 29:16 / #
Yes. Right.
Sarah MacLean 29:17 / #
But it's interesting because I don't I have never recalled it like that.
Jennifer Prokop 29:24 / #
Oh, no, me neither.
Sarah MacLean 29:25 / #
I will always recalled it as tampered condom. Stolen baby. Yes. And it never bothered me.
I'm like, this is one of those scenarios where like, you have to name the problem and then like, also just acknowledge that like, yeah, It didn't bother me, except in the sense that it did of course bother me-- she does a terrible thing. And I've always known that. Like, I've always from the first second I read this book, known that Jane made a heart horrible horrible decision and trapped Cal into this terrible situation. And no, at no point, does Susan shy away from it. And it's one of those moments It reminded me this time, it evoked for me that Joanna Lindsey Prisoner of My Desire, because you know, which we talked about with Joanna Shupe, on a podcast in season one, but that Joanna Lindsay, the heroine rapes the hero and he's so angry. And in this book Cal is so angry.
Jennifer Prokop 30:37 / #
I understand her reasoning and so therefore it didn't bother me, but I would say the fact that Cal knows that second time is when she gets pregnant, and that was his part of it, too? I feel like yeah, it's why he forgives her, right? I guess is what I..
Sarah MacLean 30:55 / #
Eventually, eventually right? But Jen, she's in cold storage.
Jennifer Prokop 31:02 / #
Oh god, yes. And she deserves to be it. Terrible. And in fact, when he confronts her, one of the things I liked about her, though, is when he confronts her, and he is furious. And we are really like, Oh my god, and she is just like, kind of stuck, and this is when she actually says the words in the title, right? "It's nobody's baby but mine" and she actually stops herself. And it's, actually, that's not true. And it's a really important moment, because we also see, she did something terrible, but she's not lying to herself about it either. And I think that's why it works.
Sarah MacLean 31:46 / #
I mean, there's so much about it. It's so deft. For all the times that I've talked about this book publicly, and on panels, and with readers about how bananas The plot is, and how light. And I always joke: oh, it's fine, it's fine. But the reality is, is that this is so deftly written every second of this, the first 30% of this book is so carefully crafted, so that as a reader you both fully understand these two characters and are fully on the side of both of them, and fully fully against both of them. Like the whole time.
Jennifer Prokop 32:25 / #
It's amazing. It's an amazing feat. It really is.
Sarah MacLean 32:28 / #
It is really magnificent. From a craft perspective, as far as building characters in a contemporary, I mean in anything, but especially in a contemporary, working with like this is kind of really, it's tightrope walking.
Jennifer Prokop 32:44 / #
Yes, and I would also like to point out, the conflict here is is so rich, it's so dynamic, it is constantly changing and moving. It is slow moving and fast moving at the same time. I mean, there's no, this is not people just sitting around talking about their feelings.
Sarah MacLean 33:06 / #
No. So okay, so what happened? So we so are now at a place where Jane is pregnant, and Cal has found out, and he comes to her. She's teaching physics class at her at her University. And he walks in and he sees her and he is like standing leaning against the wall like pure alpha sex. And the whole room is like, "What the fuck is happening?" And he looks at the class and he's like class is over.
Sarah MacLean 33:37 / #
And my panties just fell right off.
Jennifer Prokop 33:41 / #
I was like, Oh, that's hot. Yeah, it was great. And she's trying to cover, like I was almost done anyway, so we'll just meet again next time.
Sarah MacLean 33:52 / #
So anyway, It's really perfect, but also I want to say he's, he's pissed on a number of levels right? He's pissed that she's having, that one is: she stole a baby from me right? Two is: now he's got to fucking face his mortality. Lik at his age, he can't live the life he was living now because he obviously, he doesn't believe, he refers to it as strays. He doesn't believe in stray kids. And so like he's fucked because he has to marry-- then there's like a little bit of a, it's a little "romance reasons" he's like we have to get married. So they get married and then on top of all of this, then he's really pissed that she thinks he's stupid. Like that's really the worst, almost the worst infraction for Cal
Jennifer Prokop 34:49 / #
Also, that she's old, right?
Sarah MacLean 34:53 / #
Actually he thinks, he thinks she's 28
Jennifer Prokop 34:57 / #
Well, he's outraged she's that old right? She's 34! So he says, tell everyone you're 26. She's like, Okay, sure.
Sarah MacLean 35:06 / #
So anyway, he says, well we've got to get married, and then you're gonna have, we're gonna get married, we're not having a bastard. And she's like, "what the fuck" What? That's not a thing." And he's like, we're not doing it. And then he's like, then you're going to have the baby, and then we're going to get a divorce. And then I'm going to pay, I'll pay. I have my financial duties to the child, but you can't have any of my money. And she's like, Fuck off. Like, I don't want any of this. And he's like, too bad. We're doing it, or I will keep you, I have enough money. I have more money than God and I will keep you in legal fees forever and file for full custody of this baby. And I'll get it because Look who I am.
Jennifer Prokop 35:46 / #
And look what you did to me.
Sarah MacLean 35:47 / #
Yeah, yeah. Um, you're both like, Wow, what an asshole and like, Oh my god, she really did a terrible thing and I get it.
Jennifer Prokop 35:54 / #
This is like the opposite of the secret baby plot in the sense that the secret baby plot, we've talked about this, hinges upon us really believing that the hero wants the heroine more than the baby. That it's like the catalyst, right? And in this case, he's like, I don't want jack shit to do with you, but this is my gonna be my child and I'm gonna I'm not gonna hold any of this against this child, but you, I don't want it. But I want that baby. And it's really interesting because that is the antithesis of what we expect from a secret baby outcome, emotionally.
Sarah MacLean 36:36 / #
But it is, but again, it's really deftly done because he doesn't forget about her. He's thinking about her all the time. You know, him discovering that she's pregnant. There's still so much romance coded into it. I mean, it's so smart. So then they go off, so then they go to get married, a quickie marriage at City Hall, except, of course the Chicago Tribune finds out and then it's everywhere and they have to run. And so they go back to the Carolinas. North Carolina? It's North Carolina, right? Western North Carolina, I don't know if that's the Smoky Mountains or what it is, but it's right
Jennifer Prokop 37:13 / #
it's near Asheville.
Sarah MacLean 37:14 / #
Appalachian Mountains, and they are living, basically he's bought a house that was ownedby a televangelist. And is hideous inside
Jennifer Prokop 37:26 / #
like real cheese ball over the top, you know just terrible.
Sarah MacLean 37:31 / #
And he introduces her to his family and he makes her fake being in love with him.
Jennifer Prokop 37:37 / #
He also makes her fake being terrible to them, Right?remember this part where he's like you You have to be awful.
Sarah MacLean 37:45 / #
Don't make them like you.
Jennifer Prokop 37:47 / #
Yeah, they've had a tragedy in the family. His brother's wife and child died in a car accident and he's like, I don't want them to like you. I don't want them to be close to you when you leave. I want them to not feel this way. And it's it's fascinating because of course, this plays right into-- all she's ever wanted is to be part of a family,
Sarah MacLean 38:08 / #
Right because her relationship, her mother died, Her father was terrible.
Jennifer Prokop 38:12 / #
And so it's again, here's another, we're digging even deeper into this conflict where the one thing she desperately wanted was a family. This baby of her own is going to be her way of doing it. And here is Cal's shiny, amazing family and she can't be a part of it. And they're nice people and she hates it.
Sarah MacLean 38:36 / #
I think we have to talk about Grandma, too-- who gets-- Oh, yeah. Okay, this is another grandma right? Who it's like a Lord of Scoundrels-style Grandma, who smokes and drinks and sits on her porch with a shotgun. Yeah, and also gets it instantly. Like when they're alone that in the first meeting, grandma looks at Jane and says, How old? How old are you? How old Did he tell you to tell us you are?
Jennifer Prokop 39:06 / #
Yeah, you know? And she says, I've never I don't know why he's so committed. And like, Why is he so invested in being young? I mean, she like recognizes that it's all on him.
All of it. And then and then there's also I really believe that the relationship between Cal's parents is really a perfect secondary relationship in this book.
I really, I really want to talk about that too. And so basically, after the grandchild and daughter-in-law died, these fault lines are sort of uncovered in the parents marriage, and that comes into play in the second half in a really interesting way. But really, what we're seeing is this battle of the Titans between Jane and Cal. She realizes hey, maybe I'm not a pushover. And he...there's this part where he talks about how he's "a yeller," he just, that's how he communicates. He can't help it and she is the only woman who's ever really fought him back, who's essentially run run right into the tackle. And that is the part about this relationship that develops-- and is one of my, a lot of my favorite scenes are ones where they are essentially yelling at each other. And in one, when he figures out how old she really is, is the same time. The same time she figures that he graduated summa cum laude from the University of Michigan with a biology degree
Sarah MacLean 39:49 / #
And they are so pissed at each other
Jennifer Prokop 39:53 / #
They actually have like a literal knock them down, drag 'em out fight on grandma's front lawn. But you know what, like, what's amazing is for many authors, that would be like the end of it, but instead like, that's just the beginning. Right? We get a scene where she--this is the one I always remember from the books-- takes all the marshmallows out of his lucky charms.
Sarah MacLean 41:06 / #
Yeah, he's a she's a cereal killer. Right? It's so smart. It's
Jennifer Prokop 41:12 / #
She locks him out of the house and he has to break back in. I mean, and so that's it. And that's the part too, when we talk about taking the finger, right? There are ways in which she really leaned so hard into ... what we're seeing isn't, it's gonna continue to escalate. But in a way where we're both seeing them, like really come into their own as people and lovers, right? It's brilliant.
Sarah MacLean 41:43 / #
It's so, so good. It's so well done. And then on top of it, so the first two times that they have sex, so first of all, I want to say Susan Elizabeth Phillips is one of the only, possibly the only romance novelist who I think can write bad sex. This sex is bad. Yeah, she has another book called Mr.... Shit, I can't remember, Call Me Irresistible, I think is the one that I'm thinking of. But we'll confirm the title and put it in show notes. But the the premise is that the heroine... that somebody's... The hero has been left at the altar, and the heroine's best friend has run from the marriage. And he is legendary. He's known as like the most legendary lover in the world. Everyone knows that, this is one of his claims to fame. He's fantastic. And they fuck and she's like, this is fine. Like it's and it feels fine on the page.
And you're like...I don't, I don't... and I as a romance writer, this is a real struggle. Writing great sex is really hard to do, But writing mediocre or bad sex is even harder, Intentionally mediocre or bad sex is harder. And so the first two times they [Jane and Cal] have sex, they have terrible sex. Iit's just not.... it's fast, kind of first It's a little painful, like there are orgasms involved, but they're not even like great orgasms they're just orgasms. Like it's all very like clinical. And then, and Jane is dressed for both of those encounters. And then she's but then it's like a whole thing. When they get up there to the mountains, and they start to sort of unlock, she refused, he still has never seen her naked. And her nakedness is like a big piece of the puzzle. And then it's almost I don't want to spoil it for those of you who haven't read it because it's really magnificent, but the moment he finally sees her naked. It is one of the greatest laughs I have ever had while reading while reading. Truly like it's, it's a great big belly laugh of a moment and it still gets me even though now I know it's coming.
Jennifer Prokop 44:19 / #
Well and I've spent so long since I've read it I completely forgotten and I was like, oh!
Sarah MacLean 44:26 / #
but it's so, so good in moment, and it's so embarrassing and funny.
Jennifer Prokop 44:31 / #
And tender, right?
Sarah MacLean 44:32 / #
It all feels that way! And then he finally goes to her. And it's one of the most authentic, honest, romantic moments in the book. And it's because it was so horrifying and emotional and embarrassing before. It's just, it feels like Susan just has the, she can peak and valley in a way. It's just there are some writers there. there are writers in every genre who are masters and she's just a master at it.
Jennifer Prokop 45:09 / #
Yeah, it really worked for me. I would say the other thing about this book that's so pleasing, because remember at the beginning we talked about how we both love them both and understand both, but hate them both. So Jane begins the book in cold storage. She's the one who has done something terrible! But Cal is the one who ends up in cold storage at the end and I gotta tell you, I in rereading this, I was like, you know who created my love and devotion to cold storage? It's Susan Elizabeth Phillips! Here is a woman who knows how to make a hero suffer. And so it's really interesting because it's weeks! Basically um, you know, we don't want to have to get into kind of spoiler territory, but she really emotionally cannot commit right? Like they get it, they get to a good place, right? They kind of get past all of this. But what they haven't really beaten is his, he's really stuck in the present. He doesn't want to think about a future, because thinking about a future means thinking about leaving football, and thinking about what's next. And he hasn't ever figured that out and so he can't, he just can't let himself do that. And she has been sort of building these castles in the air about they're... like "this is all going to work out and we're going to be so happy." And what happens is she fucking takes off in her shitty like Ford Escort and goes to live with the you know, the grandmother. And then Cal's mom has also left her husband and these women are living in a Smith College dorm, essentially.
Sarah MacLean 46:55 / #
Oh my god, I'm gonna spoil that scene at night. Yeah, when he comes in to her. So she goes across over onto the other side of the mountain. She leaves him to the other side of the mountain. And the the women take her in. And then there's that magnificent scene where she's asleep. And there's a storm outside and she wakes up and he's there. And it's very Rune and Josie. And he's there. And he's, like, "Come back with me." And she's like, no. And they have a kind of quick conversation. And then his mom is knocking on the door. She's like, "do you have a man in there?" And Jane says yes. And he's like, "Why the fuck did you tell her?" And then the mom is like, "do you want him in there?" And Jane says no. And it's so heartbreaking because of course she does want him in there! but like he's been such an asshole and he's such a dummy and why, like and why why is he such a dummy? And then the mom is like, can you come stay with me? You sleep in my bed with me. And she goes
Jennifer Prokop 48:01 / #
It's really. it's, you know what it's really it is magnificent here's, the other thing, So now is maybe a good time to talk about this B plot love story. Which it's, I love this book but it's ironic, because one of the reasons I haven't read a new Susan Elizabeth Phillips book in a long time. And one of the reasons I stopped is because the secondary romances essentially started becoming like equal, the A and the B romances essentially became indistinguishable in later books. And I didn't really enjoy it. I don't know, maybe I'm just a dummy and I just want I really want the tight focus on the main romantic subplot, and I found myself frustrated by other ones and so it was really interesting because it's around 50% when Cal's parents sort of bubble up as being... okay, we're gonna get their story, and I had forgotten. And I remember as I was reading, I thought Thank God it's not gonna like take over, This was yesterday as I was rereading, thank god this is not going to take over. It's not what I want. But I think there's a couple really brilliant things that happen with this. One is it gives the reader something to focus on while Cal is in cold storage. Because if you really want it to feel like someone is suffering for...you can't just say "two weeks later" right? And it's two paragraphs later. So it gives the readers, it gives our author and the reader something to do while the time is passing. But also it's this really it's like, if Jane and Cal don't get this straightened out now, this is what's gonna happen later. Right? So it's like forewarning A potential bad outcome. And I think it's and that's the part I also thought was really brilliant, along with one of the most heart wrenching stories of a man doing someone dirty I have ever read and I cannot believe I repressed it, I read it again. And it was just as painful,
Sarah MacLean 50:21 / #
It's devastating. the story behind Cal's parents. So Cal's father is a doctor who was in medical school and his mother sold cookies in a hospital, and he'd never he basically like, he denied that he knew and was in love with her
Jennifer Prokop 50:38 / #
that they were married! That was his baby!
Sarah MacLean 50:53 / #
It's so heart wrenching, and she stays with him. And so for me also, there's this piece of like, it feels very real because it feels generationally, like we've talked before about women of a generation, even even just one generation above us like feeling trapped. And not being able to get out of a relationship. That is, that is so upsetting. It's also like there's something in here about education and class, and and all the other... this book. Really for a book that is so hilariously funny, And so romantic, It's also, it's a lot about age. It's a lot about class. It's a lot about like how you prejudge people, it's about education. It's about location. Like, there are so many layers of the way that we judge each other, including people we love.
Jennifer Prokop 51:57 / #
I think the other thing I found myself thinking about about is I, I think this is really a book about the cavalier way in which we talk about women trapping men with pregnancy. But not ever really digging into the many ways that women in unhappy marriages are trapped by marriage. Does that make sense? So it's the whole story about Cal's parents is she trapped him, right? She was 15 when she got pregnant, 16 when she had Cal. He's graduating from high school and she had to stand under the bleachers to go see it because she's basically been kicked out of high school for the thing that they did together. And so the whole story is she trapped him. She was trash and she trapped him and then she had to drop her mountain girl persona to become the doctor's wife, but we see that she was trapped, too. There's a real I don't know, uncovering, I think, of like, what, what is it? What does it mean when we talk about trapping someone into marriage? Like everybody loses. And I I don't know, it was really poignant.
Sarah MacLean 53:11 / #
And it's heartbreaking, because it doesn't come up. They never talk about it. And I know, you know, my mom doesn't listen to the podcast, so I can say this. But like, I feel like my parents didn't talk about so many of the things that were deeply embedded in their marriage. And maybe there are things I don't talk to my husband about that are deeply embedded in our marriage. I don't know, like, maybe this is just marriage, but it feels like that relationship could easily have just never been healed. Like it could have just lived its whole life with the story of Cookie Girl and standing under the bleachers. And you have this kind of moment of deep relief when they finally acknowledge that skeleton and like can move forward in some way
Jennifer Prokop 54:06 / #
Well and that's the part about the cold storage, I think for both Cal...both for for Lynn, Cal's mom, and for for Jane is the first time a man comes back to apologize how how quickly they are I don't know, socialized to just say, okay thank you. Just apologizing once is going to be enough for me and and the way Lynn has to essentially force herself to say, it's still not good enough, I've never in our 37 years of marriage said to you "I deserve more" but I do. and and Jane as well. Like I deserve more, but I deserve more. And it's that's the part about this even though I've made a mistake, even though I did shitty, terrible things, I'm not going to pay for them forever. I still deserve more. It's really powerful. It really is.
Sarah MacLean 55:12 / #
I mean it's really it's fabulous and then it all like she just never gives up, Susan never lets she never lets up, she every like you get to, I don't know like 90% of the way through this book right? There's the fight finally his dad comes in and is like, young lady, you have to talk to my son. And the new quarterback from the Chicago stars is there for some weird romance, and Grandma has her shot gun and like everyone's there like it's like a nonsense play. It's like a farce. Yeah. And you're watching all these people. And you think to yourself Cal's gonna profess His love, and it's finally going to be over and instead The conversation like starts and he's like "everything about you fucking irritates me," and Every woman is like what the hell is wrong?
Jennifer Prokop 56:14 / #
Even the other quarterback,
Sarah MacLean 56:16 / #
He's great the other quarterback, who is younger, but also it's that perfect example of like how it's it reminded me of Kresley, right like when we did A Hunger Like No Other, and we were like she's telling the story of the way romance is shifting, too. Susan...Cal is an old school alpha hero who like is feeling feelings for the first time and doesn't like it. What's his name Tyler? What's his name?
Jennifer Prokop 56:43 / #
Kevin. Kevin Tucker.
Sarah MacLean 56:46 / #
Yeah, Kevin is like a new evolved, cool hero who's deeply in touch with his emotions. And it's like, why don't you understand that ladies like to be treated well? And it's awesome to see the two of them together especially because like it's so overt, the metaphor is so overt like, yes, Cal's a dinosaur, he's a dinosaur in the football field. He's a dinosaur as a man. Like, he has to evolve or he's gonna die.
Jennifer Prokop 57:20 / #
Yeah. And and Jane is, I think one of my favorite moments in here, there are many that are good, is the part where she she locks him out of the house. And she, I mean, we're talking like she dismantles the electronic gate. She locks all of the doors to the house, she fiddles with the alarm. And the way that he gets in is he essentially has to scale the house and go over the roof and through like the doors on like a bedroom on the second floor, and he's actually infuriated that she didn't lock them. Didn't she think he was good enough to get up there and open those doors right?
Sarah MacLean 58:07 / #
Oh my god. It's so perfect though, right? Like I would never think t write that. But it's so perfect
Jennifer Prokop 58:13 / #
It is so perfect.
Sarah MacLean 58:15 / #
It has such a male shitty thing in the moment.
Jennifer Prokop 58:21 / #
Yes, I mean, let's look at the many ways in which she tried to keep me from this house but she didn't do this one thing so she didn't really mean it. And, and that's it like their entire... but the thing that she realizes, and then he's yelling at her. And she stops and thinks, I wonder what it was like when he yelled at he's like these 21 year old women. And she realizes. She stops and she's like, he never would have done that. And that's when she realizes that he's in love with her too. He just won't admit it and doesn't know it. And that's the part where she sees him so much more clearly. He goes down to Texas to see Bobby Tom and is convinced the Bobby Tom is just putting on the the fiction of being happy because no one could ever be happy if they weren't playing football and when he comes back and he like says that her. She's basically like, What the fuck is wrong with this dummy? He thinks football is more important than family? And even Cal's mom is like "he grew up in a happy family. I don't know where this comes from." It is amazing. It is so good.
Sarah MacLean 59:29 / #
It's so perfect. And then the grand gesture at the end. Like where he's like I really wanted to win a football game because that's what football players do. And she's like, what the fuck? And then he's like, but I get it, I get that's not what you need. And everything about it, It's just so good. And it's so cinematic too, we haven't talked about when at the first part, where you know you sort of feel like you're watching a play and some of them in some of the the scenes but it really does feel like I want to see this, I want to see this movie. if somebody said to me "what romance novels should absolutely be a movie" like it feels like this one. It's so fun. It's perfect
Jennifer Prokop 1:00:23 / #
Yeah, I think this is the thing where to me when we talk about like ROM-coms, right which is like a marketing term now but actually meant back then. And in the 90s was prime time for rom-com movies, too. But this manages to hit all of the romance novel beats without humiliating the heroine, which I think is where a lot of ROM coms now go wrong. And really keep a tight focus on the romance while introducing lots of really charming sub, sort of second string characters. There's a lot of like physical comedy and humor, there's a lot of... it is in fact cinematic, that's a great word for it I think it's inventive in a way. it really is putting something on page that was
Sarah MacLean 1:01:19 / #
Jennifer. on past AMA's, you have said "I don't think ROM coms exist."
Jennifer Prokop 1:01:25 / #
Yeah well I mean now. They existed then. I don't I mean... this, Jenny Crusie,
Sarah MacLean 1:01:33 / #
If you are out there, in the ether, listening to us and you are thinking everybody says publishing wants ROM coms What do they really mean? Read the book. Read this book because it beat for beat. It's just exactly what you want in a rom com.
Jennifer Prokop 1:01:51 / #
Yes. Yeah, absolutely.
Sarah MacLean 1:01:54 / #
And heavy on the ROM. we talk all the time about how romance is hard as a genre. One of the one of the things that enrages me about the level of disdain that the world has for romance as a genre is the complete disregard for the fact that when you're writing romantic suspense, it has to exist as both suspense and romance. You have to have a mystery and romance when you're writing historical romance, it has to be historically, it has to be a historical novel and also romance. This is a perfectly balanced,
Jennifer Prokop 1:02:34 / #
this book is also 23 years old. So right, and it is it is spectacular.
Sarah MacLean 1:02:43 / #
It is the Lord of scoundrels of rom com,
Jennifer Prokop 1:02:47 / #
This and Jenny Crusie,
Sarah MacLean 1:02:48 / #
I know you really like Bet Me. And for me, I haven't read Bet Me in 25 years. So for me this is like the gold standard, but we're going to do Bet Me, too. Maybe we should do Bet Me next
Jennifer Prokop 1:03:02 / #
Yeah, well this and Welcome to Temptation and Bet Me are... but I mean those were 2000? Welcome to Temptation was 2000, Bet Me was probably 2001, 2002. yes so this was all a really tight and you know maybe and after 9/11 it was just harder to do. I don't know it's really interesting to consider.
Sarah MacLean 1:03:26 / #
Well there was that great moment on Saturday Night Live the the week that they came back after 9/11 and Lorne Michaels stood there with Rudy Giuliani, who was mayor at the time and Lorne Michael said, "Can we be funny?" and Rudy Giuliani said, "why start now?" And so and it's like that. I don't know, I don't know if rom com did exist short of, Maybe it was just to Susan and Jenny. I mean, it was also Laura Zigman. And then of course, there was Helen Fielding like, right in that the sort of wake of 9/11 was the rise of the Chic Lit.
Jennifer Prokop 1:04:08 / #
It's interesting that you talk about the "can we be funny again" thing. Do you remember what was in The Onion when they came back online after 9/11? It was a very a set of very similar types of things. And there's one that is like basically really bitterly funny, which was God holding a press conference, telling people to stop killing people using his name. And I I remember thinking nothing will ever be funny again.
Sarah MacLean 1:04:37 / #
And it will be.
Jennifer Prokop 1:04:39 / #
I know.
Sarah MacLean 1:04:40 / #
I mean, I think it's important. Part of me feels really good about doing this this week. I like the fact that it's a forced proximity story. Like there's some very overt reasons why I think this is a nice choice for this week. But also I'm really glad we did it because it's really funny. I laughed out loud reading this book today.
Jennifer Prokop 1:04:59 / #
Yes.
Sarah MacLean 1:05:00 / #
Yeah, today is not a day that is easy to laugh out loud on. So I'm, you know, Susan, I've said this to your actual face. And I texted you this today. And I don't know if you will ever listen to this podcast, but if you do just know that like this book. I mean, it is. It's one of my very, very favorites and I'm so grateful for it.
Jennifer Prokop 1:05:26 / #
Me too. It was really wonderful to read it again.
Sarah MacLean 1:05:32 / #
All right.
So well, we talked about doing that me again, but we'd also talked about the Victoria Dohl.
Jennifer Prokop 1:05:40 / #
Yeah, I don't remember the name. You were like Cunnilingus Gabe, I was like, I don't think that's the title.
Sarah MacLean 1:05:49 / #
Hang on. Eric's gonna be like what now? It feels like when you Google "Victoria Dahl cunnilingus" it should just populate but... Ah, it's Taking the Heat. And it's number three in her girls night out series but you don't have to read the others. It is a proper standalone and Victoria we are going to read, and we are going to talk about sex with Victoria as well. Because and it's gonna be a different kind of conversation than we did about Tessa.... not Tessa Dare....Tessa.
Jennifer Prokop 1:06:29 / #
Tessa. Bailey. the queen of dirty talk.
Sarah MacLean 1:06:35 / #
Yeah, Tessa Bailey, and, and the, but it's about a dude librarian who really likes to eat ladies out. I shouldn't say, that that's gross. That's a gross way of saying it It's about a dude librarian who really likes...
Jennifer Prokop 1:07:02 / #
His nickname is Cunnilingus Gabe, Sarah, I think we all get what he likes to do.
Sarah MacLean 1:07:11 / #
And it's pretty great. But also there's a there's a really beautiful like, the heroine writes an advice column in a small town. He's a librarian. And there's a really great bullying subplot like a school bully subplotthat I really think is beautiful, and I really like this book. So we're gonna do that next. Awesome. Otherwise, what else should you know about us? Oh, call us call us! We are very excited every time you leave us voicemail messages is really saying anything but especially when you tell us about books that blooded you As a romance reader.You can get pins and stickers from Best Friend Kelly. If you just go to our website, you can click on merge and go direct to her store there. Our website is fadedmates dot net, but just be aware of things shifting with post offices. So Jordan Dene, which is where all of my T shirts exist. She is closing the shop until the quarantines slash isolations slash whatever we're calling it today is over because she wants to keep mail workers as safe as possible.
Jennifer Prokop 1:08:28 / #
I would just say everybody, stay safe. stay at home if you can.
Sarah MacLean 1:08:33 / #
Wash your hands.
Jennifer Prokop 1:08:34 / #
Yeah, and be if you are out in the world, be as kind and thoughtful as possible to people who are working on our behalf. And if you see someone being shitty to them, step up and tell that person to buzz off.
Sarah MacLean 1:08:48 / #
Usin those exact words, and also tip your delivery people.
Jennifer Prokop 1:08:55 / #
Oh, like an insane amount. Yes. Whatever you can do.
Sarah MacLean 1:08:58 / #
They're really taken brunt of it. So yeah, love you guys stay safe Keep us posted on the books that you're reading tell us if you've read anything that's as funny as Nobody's Baby But Mine is, we're looking! And have a great week.
Unknown Speaker 1:09:13 / #
Hi Fated Mates fam. My name is Rosalie and the book that blooded me was Susan Elizabeth Phillips' Natural Born Charmer, Book number seven in her Chicago star series and it came out in 2008. Sarah, I think you'll laugh at this. I was at the JFK Airport, going home to Chicago and had just finished a book when they announced a three hour delay. To my dismay, I had nothing to read. So I was roaming and perusing and I saw a mass market paperback with a bright red cover and had this woman in a flowing dark dress and just knew from the cover that this book would get me out of my travel blues. I think it was Kismet because although I didn't start in Chicago ended up in Chicago and I just didn't know how I had missed this entire genre for 32 years of my life. It has really given me an opportunity to see these great authors and understand women in ways I hadn't before. So I really appreciate all the authors who put their hard work out there and to you and Jen Sarah, for talking about it every week. So thank you so much. Thank you so much. Bye
S02.29: Health Care Workers in Romance Novels
We are very pro health care workers these days — we love all of you…doctors, nurses, EMTs, home health aides…if you know how to work a stethoscope, we’re into you. This week, we’re taking about some of our favorite medical romances. Listen for Jen getting thoughtful, and Sarah getting wildly inappropriate. We’re all just doing our best.
We love having you with us! — subscribe on your favorite podcasting platform and like/review the podcast, please!
Next week, we’re reading Susan Elizabeth Phillips’s Nobody’s Baby But Mine, and we cannot WAIT. We know it’s tough to get it in print, but find it in e at your local library or at: Amazon (free in Kindle Unlimited!), Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo, or in print, mailed from your local indie (which is probably still shipping!).
Show Notes
As we all shelter in place, romance twitter has been very entertaining. Julia Kelly posted a thread where she posed her pets as romance novel covers, and everyone had fun with it. Sarah also loved this one about a dog who howls along with the Law and Order theme song.
We forgot to tell you last week when we talked about Devil's Bride that Stephanie Laurens has a new book out, The Inevitable Fall of Christopher Cynster. We also have added information about how to pronounce Honoria and details about peach silk.
Now is the time to get the BookBub daily romance email. Here's Sarah's Bookbub page.
The nurse and doctor books were the backbone of early Mills and Boon romances, and the forerunner of the modern Harlequin Medical Romance; whereas Americans often find big, soapy hospital dramas on TV.
Budleigh Salterton looks like a very nice place to hang out unless you are a bored American 12 year old.
The roots of American and British romance are different, as proven by this absolutely WRONG LitHub romance essay. (They're wrong about romance a lot.)
Sarah has talked about Radclyffe and the origin of Bold Strokes Books, but many of her romances are about doctors or set in hospitals.
Jen doesn't really care too much about job details. Sorry not sorry.
No one likes a Bloodletter. We want our historical doctors to be foreward thinking. Or as Eloisa James does in When Beauty Tamed the Beast, use a modern TV character like House as model for a hero.
In Tempest, Jen spoke out inequities in acess to medical care for black patients, and that's still true today.
If you're looking to see some "don't fuck your doctor" romances that definitely fall somewhere on the Simone Scale. Wrong by Jana Aston and Medicine Man by Saffron Kent.
Jurgen Klopp wants you to put your hands away, and this amazing thread by comedian Laura Lexx and support all the Liverpool fans out there (especially Jen's brother).
Jen's cool TikTok project is up and running, she's interviewing YA authors and hoping to get kids to read while they are sheltering in place.
You can order buttons from Kelly and t-shirts from Jordandene.
Next time, we'll be reading Nobody's Baby But Mine by Susan Elizabeth Phillips.
S02.28: “It’s Sinister, right?! - Devil's Bride by Stephanie Laurens
This week we’re reading a favorite of both Sarah & Jen — Stephanie Laurens’s Devil’s Bride! We’re so excited to talk about ridiculous (we mean amazing) nicknames, about 30 page sex scenes, and about how we crushed our SATs thanks to romances like this one! We’re also hoping you are keeping a safe distance from others and washing your hands lots!
We love having you with us! — subscribe on your favorite podcasting platform and like/review the podcast, please!
Next week, we’re reading Susan Elizabeth Phillips’s Nobody’s Baby But Mine, and we cannot WAIT. We know it’s tough to get it in print, but find it in e at your local library or at: Amazon (free in Kindle Unlimited!), Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo, or your local indie.
Show Notes
Please stay inside and stay safe if you can, and remember not to believe screenshots from your cousins.
Here are some interesting and well-sourced tweets about coronavirus from a Fos (Friend of Sarah).
Want to know the other books Jen ordered back in 2001? It was Grand Passion by Jane Ann Krennz, Prince of Swords Anne Stuart, and Innocence by Suzanne Forester. She still swears she didn't read any of them.
Captain Jack's Woman was Stephanie Laurens' debut novel, not Devil's Bride. But it's the Bar Cynster that made her such a popular writer.
Sometimes (ok, a lot) Jen shit-posts on twitter about conflict and writing. Sarah can't always have eyes on her, sorry.
Jen thinks it was Amanda Quick that brought back old-fashioned names, but the only truly great Sylvesteris from disco.
"Eyes on stalks" is a real phrase, and so is rapaciously. On the other hand, here's a bunch of sex scene euphamisms.
The Cynsters were at Waterloo, so we're not sure why busting through the hymen is such work for them.
All about the Greek chorus.
Lady Osbaldestone does have her own books, as do Devil and Honoria's kids.
Veronica Mars illustrates the fan service problem.
Jen is obsessed with the idea of "the imperial period" for musicians--and other kids of artists.
Next time, we'll be reading Nobody's Baby But Mine by Susan Elizabeth Phillips.
S02.27: Sickbed Scenes in Romance with Kate Clayborn
Sarah has the flu! She wants you to know it’s absolutely terrible and you should all get your flu shots even though she got one and still got the flu but vaccines are good for you. Also, we all want you washing your hands and air high-fiving your friends because it’s wild out there. But you are IN FOR A TREAT this week — as our fave Kate Clayborn is pinch hitting for Sarah, and we’re talking romance sickbed scenes this week! If we have to be hyper focused on sickness, shouldn’t there be yearning and vigiling and a veiled death threat against a doctor (don’t threaten doctors)?
We love having you with us! — subscribe on your favorite podcasting platform and like/review the podcast, please!
Next week, we’re reading Stephanie Laurens's Devil's Bride, starring Devil Cynster, who also happens to be the only romance hero Sarah's husband can name (yes, even now). Find it at: Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo, or your local indie.
Show Notes
Welcome Kate Clayborn! She joined Jen this week since Sarah was down and out with the flu.
Kate loves a sick bed scene. When we talk about acute vs chronic illness, the sick bed scene is acute rather than chronic. And, as Jen points out, these are almost always about physical rather than mental illness.
Some of Jen's favorite sickbed scenes are in Indigo by Beverly Jenkins and Managed by Kristen Callihan -- but we've talked about those books already! Same thing with The Master by Kresley Cole.
Kate is a lot more interested in work of all kinds than Jen. It's okay. We're still friends. We even made a hashtag, #Claykop, so we can find all our discussions.
We recorded this on Sunday March 8th, so who knows what the coronavirus situation will be by the time you listen to this.
Andie Christopher was the first to bring the I'm Baby meme to our attention when she joined us for the cinnamon roll episode.
Jen and Kate both suffer from insomnia. Sarah sleeps like a rock.
Jen was procrastinating about her report cards--but they're all done now, it's fine.
The bedside vigil is kissing cousin to Jen's cold storage fetish, and the way Kate loves it when a hero suffers.
Endomitriosis is no joke.
We'll be back next week with Devil's Bride by Stephanie Laurens.
S02.26: Women's Friendship in Romance
We’re talking about women’s friendship in romance this week — how it works, why it’s important, and why we want all our romance heroines to have a squad.
We love having you with us! — subscribe on your favorite podcasting platform and like/review the podcast, please!
Next week, we’re reading Stephanie Laurens's Devil's Bride, starring Devil Cynster, who also happens to be the only romance hero Sarah's husband can name (yes, even now). Find it at: Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo, or your local indie.
Show Notes
We know we shouldn't make the gallows humor jokes about coronavirus, but we did. We hope there won't be a pandemic, but if there is, get your TBRs ready. Jen's excited it won't have anything to do with RITA books.
Have you preordered Daring and the Duke yet?
Daddy is kind of sexy, but Mike Pence really does call his wife mother, and that's never gonna be sexy.
We love Henry Cavill in season 1 of The Witcher. Just watch this video of them kissing. Jen stopped watching when they broke up in episode 7, and Netflix really wants her to finish.
The idea for this week's episode came from listener Mary Ann Harlan who wondered, "Do you have an episode on how female friendships in romance disrupt the patriarchy? Or even just how female friendships work in a good way in romance?" I mean, probably just listen to season 1 where we talked about the witches and valkyries.
Jen wrote about women's friendship in romance for Galentine's Day. So if you're looking for more recommendations, check it out.
Some of the early proto-women friendships in historicals are Lisa Kleypas's Wallflowersand Penelope in the Bridgerton series.
Adult friendships are important even if you don't have a best friend.
Deficit modeling is a kind of thinking that assumes people can't move forward due to deficits or shortcomings. It's a phrase used in education that blames students and their families for lack of school readiness; for women, it's used when discussing the way they assert themselves.
It would be really weird if your ex started dating Lady Gaga.
It can be hard to be friends when the other person has more money than you.
In abusive relationships, the abuser often separates and isolates the victim from their friends and family in order to control them.
The Outsiders by SE Hinton is a really beloved book. One day, Jen's going to write a think piece about how it's all about American identity.
Every woman loves the song "I Will Survive." We don't make the rules.
Linda would definitely have your back, so follow her on Twitter if you're not already.
Looking for new buttons from Kelly? Jen loves Danger Bang! while Sarah is Living Every Week like it's Rune Week. The full set of t-shirts and totes is available now from Jordandene.
Devil's Bride by Stephanie Laurens is next week.
S02.25: Asking For Trouble: Tessa Bailey is the Queen of Dirty Talk
This week we're mixing it up, talking about an author more than a specific book -- the Queen of Dirty Talk herself, Tessa Bailey. But we're not just talking about the sexybits -- we're also talking about working class heroes, women and worry and how awesome it is to watch authors evolve.
We love having you with us! — subscribe on your favorite podcasting platform and like/review the podcast if you’re so inclined!
In two weeks, we’re reading a book that blooded both Sarah and Jen — and approximately 50% of Romancelandia, we think -- Stephanie Laurens's Devil's Bride, starring Devil Cynster, who also happens to be the only romance hero Sarah's husband can name (yes, even now). Find it at: Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo, or your local indie.
Show Notes
Sarah was heading to Birmingham for the Southern Voices Book Festival. The last time she was there, it was when she was a kid going to a Science Olympiad competition. Based on the description of that event, Jen suspects that she was outside orienteering. She's going to see Rachel Hawkins and Naima Simone!
Meanwhile, Jen went to see Bug by Tracy Letts at the Steppenwolf Theater, which is known for being the home theater of John Malkovich and also where hope goes to die.
Jen wrote about Johanna Lindsey and her New York Times obituary in a column for Kirkus.
The hero of Protecting What's His is Derek Tyler, which is Jen's second favorite romance Derek. Derek and Ginger also appear in a follow-up novella, Protecting What's Theirs. Derek also appears as a secondary character in the Crossing the Lines series, where he assembles a team of ex-cons and misfits as a special crime fighting team. Ginger's sister gets her own book in Unfixable.
The rise of eBooks made room for indie publishing and small presses like Entangled. Here's the story of how Barabara Freethy took advantage of the Kindle revolution.
Enemies to Lovers is one of the most beloved romance tropes. Jen is going to talk about her whole energy theory in an upcoming Kirkus column.
This is a romance that deals with class in an unusual way--she's the poor little rich girl, while he's working two jobs because of family obligations to his siblings.
Tessa Bailey is the Queen of Dirty Talk. She just is. Jen's favorite is Duke from Worked Up, who is a perfect grunting hero.
Jen noticed that several motifs that appear in Asking for Trouble appear in other books -- for example, there is a trip to Atlantic City in Worked Up, and connecting doors in a hotel room in Driven by Fate.
Sarah identifies "heroine as rock" as part of Tessa Bailey's core story, Jen noticed the pull between familial duty and individual needs. At first Sarah thought Tessa's most recent book, Love Her or Lose Her, doesn't fit into the core story...but after talking it through, she thinks it fits perfectly.
Sarah mentioned the one with a hero who is a recovering alcoholic called Indecent Exposure. Jen also loved it and reviewed it for The Book Queen.
Some advice in case you ever need to stop a wedding.
Buy buttons and stickers from Kelly at Jen's shop and the newly available full line of t-shirts from Jordandene.
Listen to this week's music selections and peruse this episode's transcript.
Next time on Fated Mates, we'll be reading Devil's Bride by Stephanie Laurens.
TRANSCRIPT
Sarah MacLean 0:00
Yeah, I'm big mad. I told Eric we were we were having a late addition to the to the podcast schedule this week.
Jennifer Prokop 0:14
I told Darryl the same thing. I was like, look, so I'm recording tonight and he's like, "only one episode?" I was like, "Yes, it will be roughly 800 hours long."
Sarah MacLean 0:22
I know. You'll never see me again.
Jennifer Prokop 0:24
My fury will not be contained.
Sarah MacLean 0:30
Body autonomy, Jennifer.
Jennifer Prokop 0:33
It's all a girl wants
Sarah MacLean 0:37
I'm just a girl standing in front of the world, asking for you to get your hands out of my uterus.
Jennifer Prokop 0:44
You know, I used to say "my uterus" a lot like people be like, "Why do--" "I'm like my uterus!" And I think back then there are some men in my life who thought it was like charming or funny. I'm like, "Did you think I was kidding? Motherfucker. Get your hands out of my fucking uterus."
Sarah MacLean 1:03
Yeah. Well, Victoria Dahl had this great tweet today about hysteria. And how hysteria is the truth that they always spoke of, but never really wanted to see. And I was like that feels right to me today. So you guys the world is aflame again. It's 2019. So like, again still, I was on the subway today and someone said to me, "I just sometimes wonder like, Am I drinking tea on the Titanic? And is it before or after we hit the iceberg?" Like, this is all fair.
Jennifer Prokop 1:40
Yeah, it's how it feels, right? There's a thing that we talked about at school where it's like, like "the bomb face," right? Something goes so wrong that you just have that thousand-yard stare. And I feel at some point, it's me and every woman I know. And I just want to say I think a lot about the women who live in states where, this, they're on the front lines.
Sarah MacLean 2:07
Yeah. So wait. I think we should, You probably know by now what we're talking about and who we are. If not, this is going to be a crash landing into Fated Mates with Sarah and Jen. I'm Sarah MacLean. I write romance novels. I read romance novels. I like to talk about romance novels.
Jennifer Prokop 2:28
Yeah, and I'm Jennifer Prokop. And I talk about romance on Twitter, and I'm a teacher and I basically believe that nobody's business what's going on in anybody's uterus.
Sarah MacLean 2:42
Yeah, I got it. I agree. Can I just cosign that? And are we done now? Four minutes in? And that's where we stand.
Jennifer Prokop 2:49
here's here's where I think we came up with this idea is what we did was kind of
Sarah MacLean 2:54
it's a what date is it? It's May, it's May something 15?
Jennifer Prokop 2:59
No. 16
Sarah MacLean 3:00
I think 16th but yesterday was May 15, and some real shitty laws were passed in, or a law was was passed in Alabama. Regarding abortion,
Jennifer Prokop 3:12
well, and by the time you hear this, which which should be next Wednesday, the 22nd. It might be that these laws have passed in Missouri and in Michigan. I mean, like these are laws that are like making their way through states.
Sarah MacLean 3:28
Yeah, the Republicans are coming for Roe. And Jen and I are big mad.
Jennifer Prokop 3:36
Yeah, well, and I think the way that we're always both interested in talking about things is like, how does romance-- which is like a genre we both profoundly love-- like help us understand where women are, where women have been, and what our future will be. Kind of in a relationship with our bodies. And I think that, you know, one thing -- We really want to be sensitive for sure. I think there's a lot of like, "if, you know, men could be pregnant, there'd be, you know, like abortion kiosks at every Walgreens" or whatever. And we're not looking to be that has like, I think it that's language is really trans-exclusionary, right. But at the same time, we were really interested in talking about this without talking about gender?
Sarah MacLean 4:34
Yeah. Well, I want to acknowledge the trans men are extra terrified right now and have every right to be. yeah. And I think, you know, I said earlier today to somebody, this is a conversation that needs to be had about every person with a uterus and so I think both of us just want to set that set that out at the start, but this is gonna it's a tough conversation to have without using gendered Yeah. language so forgive us, for..
Jennifer Prokop 5:01
We want to be sensitive to it and we want our listeners to be sensitive to it, too. And so it's a like mea culpa in advance, we're going to try to do our best but we like really welcome feedback, I guess, from for us like, it's important to us to be inclusive, but it's also like a conversation that so tied into the way gender and women's bodies and like actual, like physical parts are seen in the world and perceived in the world that it's hard to imagine that we won't. Like we were just going to do our best, everybody. But we're also, I think it's urgent to talk about it, especially in romance because, as we've talked about many, many weeks, this is the place where, like the interior life of a woman is really like the most fully developed. And for, for I think every woman these concerns about like reproductive organs and how they sometimes feel like they betray us, is one that I think is we're really interested in talking about.
Sarah MacLean 6:12
Yeah, so this episode is going to be different than all of our other episodes, it's still going to have a lot of books in it, where we encourage you to get a pen. Show notes will be extensive, but we're going to talk about bodies and, and the female body, and the parts of it and the things that happen inside us and the reasons why romance has always seemed to be a place where that's a safe conversation and a safe dialogue. For us to have but a big, the big I think reason why we're doing this this week is because yesterday, I asked on Twitter for people to hive mind a list of romances where... in which the heroine has a abortion, has an abortion without shame. And I think we got, what, like 15 books? And I think that is the thing that we should talk about. So we're going to talk about-- so content warning, we're going to obviously talk about abortion. We're going to talk about miscarriage. We're going to talk about stillbirth. We're going to talk about contraception. What else we're going to talk about?
Jennifer Prokop 7:31
My rage.
Sarah MacLean 7:32
A lot of rage, you guys asked for it! See, be careful what you wish for our listeners. Um, so where do you want to begin? You want to begin with [Fanny!] Fanny Hill. "Fanny Hill: Memoirs of a Woman of Pleasure," which is an erotic novel, written in 1748. Don't, don't be expecting this to be like Sierra Simone style.
Jennifer Prokop 8:02
I actually am really curious to read it in the light of that statement, a little levity.
Sarah MacLean 8:08
Wikipedia calls it "an erotic novel." That's what I have opened in front of me, because I wanted all the dates in front of me. It's written by a man named John Cleland. And it was published a serialized, So Jen would have loved it {on brand.} In 1748, I did not know this. So 1748 I'm going to repeat that because, holy crap. I did not know this, but John Cleland wrote it while he was in debtor's prison. And, it is considered I'm now just reading from Wikipedia, but "it is considered the first original English prose pornography and the first pornography to use the forum of the novel." It is one of the most banned books in history but is considered by many, including Maya Rodale, to be a primordial romance novel, to use a Kresley Cole term.
Jennifer Prokop 9:13
I actually love that. I love calling it a primordial romance novel.
Sarah MacLean 9:16
I mean, I and I think it probably is. So Fannie Mae-- Fannie Mae, that's a that is where you get your college loans from, which is a different rage. If any Fannie Mae or Sallie Mae? I don't know. Anyway, doesn't matter. Maybe we'll skip all that.
Jennifer Prokop 9:34
So we're never good with titles! How is that not on brand for us?
Sarah MacLean 9:39
There are there are a lot of editions. If you can find an edition of Fanny HIll with illustrations, they're super graphic. And also you can go on Wikipedia and there are several very graphic illustrations. So you know, enjoy yourselves. Enjoy yourselves. So okay, um, she writes letter there. It's written, it's epistolary, she is telling her own story to, uh, to to the recipient of two letters. And it's basically Fanny's life account, and I'm not going to get too deep into it, but essentially, her parents die, and she goes to London and she gets lured into a brothel. And it's the story of, sort of, her life in the brothel. And the reason why we're bringing up Fannie Mae--Fannie Mae, goddamnit! The reason why we're bringing up Fanny Hill is because, like, ultimately, she gets married to Charles the hero. And so that's why we call it a primordial romance novel. It does end with Fanny in happiness. There's, warning, a whole lot of like, problematic representation or prostitutes in this book, it was written in the 1740s, and it can be, like, very preachy about that. So, obviously, you know, consider the date of publication. Fun fact.
Jennifer Prokop 11:09
I'm gonna retcon this, this that like Sarah from Dreaming of You, that that's what she wrote. Matilda, right? I'm sure that's probably what it is.
Sarah MacLean 11:19
Yeah, yeah. Um, there is a lot of, just to talk about like etymology for a second, there is some discussion that the reason why like, you can call it, like some people call it vagina a Fanny is because of Fanny Hill. Um, so you know, fun facts, just fun little, you know, historical facts. But Fanny, importantly, spends a lot of time in a brothel, working in a brothel, where she loses her virginity. There's a bisexual Madam, I want to say in this book, and you know, there's a lot of sex in all different forms and all different places. And there are a lot of prostitutes who have to terminate pregnancies, and they do it on the page and Fanny sort of articulates how it's done. It's not super graphic if I, you know, if I recall correctly, but it is like abortion is on the page in this book, because of course it is! Contraception is on pages book, because of course it is! And it's 1750, so, let's set aside this idea that any of this is new. Because, as I've said, multiple times ad nauseum over the last few days, like women have been dealing with..
Jennifer Prokop 12:32
Unwanted pregnancies.
Sarah MacLean 12:33
Yeah. Since pregnancy began.
Jennifer Prokop 12:37
Sure. And you know what, it's really interesting because I feel like-- and you and I were chatting about this before we started recording-- that I'm pretty sure like my first introduction to abortion was like women and historical romances. Like somebody knew somebody who knew the right cup full of tea to drink. Yep. Right. And, and even though I can't name specific ones. Like, I just feel like I imprinted on that idea that there was, like there was a woman somewhere in the village who knew how to take care of this business. Yeah. And and that's who you went to see.
Sarah MacLean 13:12
I mean, and she was a midwife, right? Because so one of the things that we talked about all the time, you and I, and I mean, I'm sure we talked about it here, but like, the romance novel, from its very origins, has been a place where, at the beginning, a subset of women, right, like written for women, white women, white cishet women, right? Right, were able to have a dialogue in an enclosed space away from the prying eyes of patriarchy, right. So and we've talked about this over time, as romance has become more inclusive of marginalized people, is has become the literature of happiness and joy, and hope and how Happily ever after. And now in 2019, that's a political act, And it was frankly a political-- It's always been a political act, right, for marginalized people to live happily. Women have been marginalized as a block. ...forever. And so I think what's really interesting here is that when we talk about pregnancy, on the page, and we talk about abortion, on the page, you and I both have the same experience, which is when we were young, and we were reading those historical romances, it was a midwife in the village who was in charge of birthing children and taking care of it, if you didn't want one. And I don't just mean abortion. I mean, like contraception, too. Like it was midwives who had tinctures and tonics and teas. And [Yep] I'm the same way, Jen. Like, I'm pretty sure that I didn't... that my first understanding of abortion came from romance novels, like there was a trick to not getting pregnant.
Jennifer Prokop 15:06
Yeah. And this was something, in pop culture for me, that moment was the movie "Fast Times at Ridgemont High." Now it came out in 1982. And I did not see it, then I would have been too young. But at some point, like later on, right, I mean, I was I was 10 then, right? It's around nine or 10, or whatever. At some point later on, I saw it and there's this like, really matter of fact, like scene where the brother essentially takes, you know, takes this his sister into the clinic and she gets an abortion, and that's that. But I would say, like those to me, but like, really that that didn't even stick out to me the way the romance novel and the sense that like women took care of each other in these moments, was like really powerful for me. Like I often remember it, although you have an example we're going to talk about I
Sarah MacLean 15:57
have a really interesting example. Yeah
Jennifer Prokop 16:00
But for me, it was like women, you know, it's like a woman went to another woman or like whispered among the maids, like somebody knew who this person was. And in that sense, like one of the most powerful like, romances I've read with a miscarriage is called "The Mayor's Mission" by Piper Huguely, where she actually experiences, she has a miscarriage. And Virgil, who's the hero, is kind of like wanting to help Mandy, his wife, and he's like, sort of like, told by, essentially, the the midwife in their village like this is Women's Business. And I think that the reason it stuck out to me is because that very much felt like, I felt that, right? When that midwife says that to Virgil, "this is Women's Business," that even though I feel differently about it today in terms of like how men and reproduction things happen, that ultimately, that was how I imprinted on this idea.
Sarah MacLean 17:03
I mean, I think that it's certainly I feel differently. It's complicated. That should be a show title of this. It's complicated. So I just turned 40. And like, my body's doing all sorts of weird shit. I'm like, I think about all the ways that like, something strange happens, and I think to myself, like, "oh, Is that normal? Like, is that is this just a thing that happens now?" And I don't like say anything to my husband, I call my friends or I asked my sister, or like, I, I sort of reference it in passing to someone who is, you know, has the same parts as me and I say, like, hey, "Has this ever happened to you?" And then suddenly, you have these moments where you're like, "Oh, wait, that has happened to me" and we never... women, I think all the time about Emily Nagoski's "Come As You Are." So, Emily writes, Emily's amazing. Right now, she's sort of everywhere in romance, because she, she wrote these wonderful contemporary romances under the name Emily Foster. The first one is called "How Not to Fall" and the second is called "How Not to Let Go." It's a duology, you have to read both, but they're both published. But she's also a sex educator, and has a PhD in human sexuality. [Oh, wow.] First of all, you want to know who writes a hot hot hot sex scene? Somebody with a PhD in human sexuality like, yeah. Emily's first book, non fiction book, written as Emily Nagoski, is called "Come As You Are," and it's basically like a informational guide to women and sex. And I bought it and it taught me so much about like, what's normal 'cause No one sits women down and says like, no,"here's what sex is like. Here's what's normal. Here's what's not normal. Like, frankly, everything is kind of normal." So and I think and I read this book and it was like, a revelation for me and I was 36 or 37 like, way too, and I've been reading romance novels since I was 11. My God, like, it's something revalatory about, like, lady bits? The fact that I got to it at 36 or 37? I went to Smith, we spent a lot of time talking about lady bits there! So anyway, I think a lot about that and I think a lot about the fact that like, romance has always for me been a place where like women's issues can be discussed without,
Jennifer Prokop 19:41
without fear or shame,
Sarah MacLean 19:42
Without fear, without shame and also with no shrouding, like there's no like, you know, you can go to the woman, the midwife, and she will give you a tincture and it will take care of the business.
Jennifer Prokop 19:55
I also have been reading romance since I was like, you know, a teen, a young teenager. And, but I went to Catholic schools and then I went to a Catholic... I went to Villanov.
Sarah MacLean 20:07
That is the opposite of Smith, I would guess.
Jennifer Prokop 20:10
Yes! In fact, I still have very vivid memories, and I don't remember her name. So you know, I can't name shame, but I remember meeting girls on my floor my freshman year of college, who, like literally didn't really even understand why they got a period,
Sarah MacLean 20:28
Jesus Christ.
Jennifer Prokop 20:29
And I just remember being like, what in fuck are you doing? What are we? And this was, you know, a long time ago, because I'm 45. And I think, I think a lot about like, abstinence only education.. and one of the things I think a lot about is, even though it is not the job of romance to teach sex ed, we are fooling ourselves if we don't understand that many, many readers are are learning about sex. Literally learning.
Sarah MacLean 21:03
Yes.
Jennifer Prokop 21:03
Through this genre.
Sarah MacLean 21:05
Yes.
Jennifer Prokop 21:05
And that is that's a responsibility. I think that we like you can
Sarah MacLean 21:10
Absolutely. You're 100%. Right. And I mean, that's not we didn't have a different, we don't, that's not different between us. I learned about sex from romance novels, without question. And I've told this story before, that I read Beatrice Small's "All the Sweet Tomorrows" when I was 14 and I was like, "Oh shit, I'm gonna get in trouble if my parents see that I'm reading this." You know, I had lactation porn. It was a ride!
Sarah MacLean 21:41
Yeah, you're 100% right. And I do think like, I think romance in those early days didn't shy away from---interestingly, yes, it had purple prose, and yes, there was a lot of euphemism, and what the hell is a throbbing member, and where did what go, and who's what --- But at the same time, you know Jane Feather's "Vixen," which actually was posted 1996, so it's much later than I would have expected. So Jane Feather's "Vixen," this is real old school ones you guys, the hero is just awful. He's awful. It's Guardian / ward. Um, and he's a real, the hero's real bad. But like if you're into like, really rough alphas who are impenetrable and ultimately end up loving their ward. It's you know, solid choice if that's your old school kink. But what's really interesting is so they have sex. He's drunk, he's like real drunk, and he comes home to his manor, and she's there. And he didn't he doesn't know who she is. She's just like, beautiful young woman in his house. And so, and he's super drunk and they have sex. And in the morning after, he's like, "Oh shit, like, what have I done?" And he makes her a tonic and brings it to her and says, and we'll put this image in show notes will put the quote in show notes.
Jennifer Prokop 23:12
It's an amazing thing. Honestly.
Sarah MacLean 23:14
It's astounding because, he basically says to her "Here. Drink this," He is not a good dude. And he's like, "drink this." And she's like, "why?" And he's like, "because it will take care of any unforeseen problems from last night." And she's like, "what problems?" And he's like, "You're an idiot." I think he calls her "a little fool." And he's like, "you could be pregnant." And she's like, "Oh my god, I didn't even think about that." And she takes the drink, and she knocks it back without hesitation, she's like, I don't want to be pregnant. Like, I'm taking this ... I'm taking herbal PlanB, like Jane Feather Regency PlanB. And It's awesome.
Jennifer Prokop 23:19
It's kind of a great scene.
Sarah MacLean 23:30
There are a lot of problems with this book. But right now, today, I read that scene and I sent a screenshot to Jen. And I was like, This is fucking great! And then she says, "Will it work?" And he says, "it'll work." And that's it. And it does work. She doesn't get pregnant. It works.
Jennifer Prokop 24:20
And, like, what I found fascinating about that scene is it does go against type in the sense that he's the one who knows about it, right?
Sarah MacLean 24:28
He's taught, interestingly enough, he is taught how to make this herbal concoction by his first lover.
Jennifer Prokop 24:37
Yeah, well, and what's really interesting, though, is what is though to type is, the sort of virginal young heroine, I mean, who goes to a man's bed for the first time having no fucking idea what's going to happen. And that's another thing I really vividly remember from like early romance, right? Especially historicals: was you know "it's your wedding night" and you know they get some stumbling half assed explanation, if that!, about what's gonna happen.
Sarah MacLean 25:10
you're gonna bleed and then you know Marlo and no good deed goes unpunished with like a gallon of pig's blood because how much show
Jennifer Prokop 25:18
idea no idea and I mean and I think I do remember being really fascinated by like by this, the stories about like, like women are sent like lambs to the slaughter. right? They have no idea what's going to happen and I just I find that fascinating still, right? Like how much I imprinted on this idea that women were there to teach each other because it was a woman-- It was her mother or her sister-- who told her and if she didn't have that, then she had to rely on the goodwill of this lover, her partner.
Sarah MacLean 25:57
I texted with Lisa Kleypas earlier today because I could only think, one of the only romance novels I could think of where where I can name contraception on the page is one of the Hathaway books, Amelia and Cam, at this point, have already been married and Amelia doesn't want to get pregnant. And so she's taking this like herbal tea, which is basically like, what she's drinking every day. Yeah, and it actually doesn't work in the book and she gets pregnant. And interestingly, I I think that's a real thing, too. Look, I mean, like, the actual pill now, with science, doesn't work 100% of the time, so like, these teas definitely didn't work all the time. I texted Lisa and I I sort of said like, "Do you, Am I missing something else? Have you written this and other books?" Because, you know, Lisa's always-- we've talked about this before about Lisa's like talismans--And Lisa is really like fascinated with the history of stuff and she'll get really interested in like the history of like land management and then suddenly that's like a huge piece of a book. So I asked her, and she actually reminded me, and I had forgotten this, that in "Devil in Winter," Evie asks about pregnancy and Sebastian says, "There are all these ways," like he sort of articulates a number of different ways that you can use contraception and he brings up the use of, Hang on-- I'm going to pull up I'm going to pull it up-- He brings up the use of, quote, "little charms," which were Lisa just said to me today, usually gold or silver or sometimes lead, and which yikes. But they were intra cervical, and sometimes even intrauterine devices that
Jennifer Prokop 27:46
like a pre IUD?
Sarah MacLean 27:48
yeah. [Dang] So the idea that these things are on that like Lisa Kleypas setting this on the page, Jane Feather setting this on the page, is a real dialogue in the 90s about how women, how this is women's work. Contraception is women's work! I mean, [yeah], yes, there is no male birth control pill and there's a reason for it. Right like, [sure]. First of all, you know, it unfortunately it is our work to make sure we don't get pregnant. People with uteruses are responsible with make sure it making sure that we don't get pregnant, which is problematic and in an immense way, but reality.
Jennifer Prokop 28:32
Yeah, well and it but it's also because thousands of years of patriarchy has made it so, right? Well, and I would think to like back in old historicals, like about French letters, right? Like I..
Sarah MacLean 28:46
the French letter!
Jennifer Prokop 28:47
How did I I mean, I totally had to like figure that out from context. There was no Wikipedia, there was no Urban Dictionary.
Sarah MacLean 28:54
And they all have like bows on them and like ribbons and you're like, "What the fuck is this?" And then what was amazing is like, I, I can't believe this is the first time we're ever going to talk about "Harlots" on this podcast because I am in love with "Harlots." The show on Hulu, which is set in a bordello in the 1700s. It's like bordello wars, but the set it's in the 1700s. It's amazing. It's super feminist it has a full female writing staff, a full female, female showrunner. Female directors, like the cast is something like 98% women, the speaking cast, like it's very intersectional, they are queer characters, there are characters of color. It's amazing. If you haven't watched "Harlots" you should. But it said a a bordello, and it's the first time I ever saw anybody, any historical anything, show a French letter the way French letters are, which is... hard. They're dried skin, and they have to be soaked in water to use them. I mean, like you guys, show notes are really going to be rich this week because we'll link, Jen and I will work on them together and we'll link to everything. But basically a French letter is it's just, it's like imagine a dried like sausage casing-- that's literally what it is, tied up sheep intestine. It's tied on one end with like, a string as tight as possible. But it can't be tied until it's softened. So you couldn't just grab a condom and go! You had to soak it for, I don't know how long, 45 minutes an hour I don't know. I don't know how long it takes, let's say an hour,
Jennifer Prokop 30:34
2020, 2021, whatever it takes.
Sarah MacLean 30:36
it's like that scene in The Princess Bride when they say, "don't go swimming for at least an hour!" So imagine Carol Kane as your friendly bordello owner but the you know, like, and that shit doesn't work either like tying up a sheep's intestine with a bit of string does not protect you from pregnancy. Which brings us back to you gotta figure out how to manage pregnancy.
Jennifer Prokop 31:06
You and I have been reading long enough that we watched the condom evolution happen in romance.
Sarah MacLean 31:12
So much.
Jennifer Prokop 31:13
You know, it's funny because part of me is like, I don't know, I don't know where I saw it, I don't know if these were conversations I overheard with people, this was pre-social media, But I remember when, like people started sort of saying, like, "you need to have your characters talk about safe sex. This has to be a conversation that happens before they get into bed." And I remember people being like, "oh, but it's gonna ruin the vibe" and yet-- Like, do you remember this? I mean, yeah, this all happened, right? There still people--
Sarah MacLean 31:47
--Not long ago, a pretty big author said, you know, publicly, "Let's just all agree that my characters are all clean and are having safe sex because I don't want to write condoms anymore." Which, look, fine, It's a it's a bit of like a, you know, I don't write contemporaries, but it's a bit of, I imagine, like, "oh, now we have to pause, pause now for a condom break." But like, some people do it really great, first of all. And second of all, it's just good sense, everyone!
Jennifer Prokop 32:17
One of the most interesting conversations I had on Twitter, though, was that gay men now can take PrEP, right, which is essentially instead of using condoms
Sarah MacLean 32:28
Yes, I've seen ads for these on this on TV.
Jennifer Prokop 32:32
One of the things that's like, really interesting is like that can be part of your, like, your Grindr profile or whatever, if you're on PrEP, and in order to keep on it, you have to be tested, I think every, like, every month or whatever, I will get these details right in show notes. And so, you know, one of the things is like in gay romance, that that like sort of conversation might be changing because it's essentially part of the, like part of the scene already. So it's really interesting to me how even the rules for like, like male / female romances might be different from gay romances or lesbian romances in terms of like that safe sex conversation because the way, essentially the ways we can protect ourselves from sexually transmitted diseases and from pregnancy are so different than they were when Jane feather was writing this historical, right, in 1996. [Right.] So and I just think that's really interesting that contraception the sort of putting on a condom is so normalized now I notice it if it's not there.
Sarah MacLean 33:35
In contemporaries, for sure. I mean, like, I've never, I've never written a condom, in a book.
Jennifer Prokop 33:41
No, of course.
Sarah MacLean 33:43
And I partially that's because of, you know, it's because of sheepskin, and soaking, and all that, but I mean, like, Elizabeth Hoyt has written condoms. Lisa uses has used like half a lemon, I want to say, or a brandy soaked sponge, so like there are certainly contraception becomes a part of it and then--
Jennifer Prokop 34:05
Pulling out, I think is one that happens in historicals.
Sarah MacLean 34:05
yeah, I've used pulling out a lot. [sure] and I just you know assume all my heroes are clean.. But the, but again, in contemporaries have to have to clear a different bar I think then historicals do. And that's because of reality, that's because we live in the same world as characters. I think it's really interesting, look we're doing a whole podcast about Kresley Cole, nobody does birth control like Kresley does, where literally Valkyries have to eat, you know demons have a seal, like they're just so there's so many ways that Kresley tackles contraception in like a important way
Jennifer Prokop 34:11
And fertility, right. Yeah, absolutely. Like it's really coded into the world, but in a way that often where women are in charge, versus women being like victimized by it.
Sarah MacLean 34:59
Well, and that's Classic Kresley, right?
Jennifer Prokop 35:02
on brand.
Sarah MacLean 35:03
Where do you want to go from here, Jen?
Jennifer Prokop 35:05
I mean, I want us to talk about miscarriages. And I want us to talk about abortion.
Sarah MacLean 35:09
Well, let's talk about abortion. Because so, I brought up early in the episode, but aside from those early drafts, yeah, you could just you could drink a thing, and it would magically wave away the problem. [Yeah.] We don't have that in contemporaries anymore. I mean, we've never had that in contemporaries. And again, it's because the bar is higher, right. You have to clear a higher bar when it comes to contraception. But we have a couple of problematic things that happen in contemporaries. And we have a couple of, and we have started really see an evolution. I think, like we have seen the normalization of condoms. And I want to say, I want to give a nod to the normalization of Plan B. [Yeah.] Do you want to talk about Plan B?
Jennifer Prokop 35:55
Yeah, I would love to talk about Plan B. So it's really interesting because in that list of 15 books, it wasn't like 15 books where an abortion happened. I think there were like a handful.
Sarah MacLean 36:04
Yeah, five or six.
Jennifer Prokop 36:06
Yeah. And then there was sort of another group where the heroines use Plan B. And one of them I read is by an author named, by an author, Melanie Greene, who I actually know from the Tournament of Books-- Hi, Melanie! And she's written a book called "Roll of a Lifetime." And I read it today. And it's really interesting because the heroine, Rachel, is a single, like a single mother, but they're divorced fathers in the picture, but he's real... he's a real jerk. He doesn't pay his child support on time, he doesn't always, you know, their daughter is two, he doesn't pick her up or drop her off on time, and Rachel is kind of financially stressed, but also, she you know, she's worried enough about him that she doesn't want him having her address, right? So she has like a very guarded relationship with him. And he has this big Greek American family and so there's like a lot of family obligations, and she ends up dating her ex's boss, this guy, Theo is that hero, but they get together and it's kind of like an just like an affair, like very casual and they have sex, like the first time and then a week or two later they're together again, and the condom breaks. And I will tell you, the scene is so matter of fact. And they're just it's just like this interlude they had an hour or two to be together, and he says to her, okay, you go pick up your daughter, Hannah, and you go put her to bed, and I will go to the pharmacy, and I'll pick up the emergency contraception, and then I'll meet you back at your house and you can take it. And it was... and she's like, "Great, sounds like a plan." And I love the detail. Like, you know, sometimes authors just get that one detail right? And here's what it is. He looked it up on his phone before going into the drugstore, because he wanted to know what it looked like.
Sarah MacLean 37:55
You want to get the right thing.
Jennifer Prokop 37:57
Yes!
Sarah MacLean 37:58
That's dreamy.
Jennifer Prokop 37:59
It was! He buys the name brand, and not the generic, because he really wants her to understand that he was taking this seriously. And then when he gets and then this part's actually kind of romantic. I mean, again like,
Sarah MacLean 38:12
Oh god, you're such a romance reader!
Jennifer Prokop 38:14
No wait! Listen to this! Listen to this! He says to her, "I want to stay. I want to stay overnight. I'm worried. I'm, you know, what if? You know it can be painful. You can have cramping, and your daughter's here." And she's like, "Okay, but I called my friend, so I don't want you to stay." And he's like, "okay." But he wanted to and I'm sorry, that's fucking romantic, everybody.
Sarah MacLean 38:38
No, it's perfect. Its nobility, heroic nobility, right? I've said 1000 times, that the hero's, in every romance novel the hero has to be a king. They don't have to be royal. They do have to be a king, and that's heroic nobility. And like, that is a perfect example. That guy's a king of Duane Reed! [yeah] That's a New York drugstore. The king of Walgreens.
Jennifer Prokop 38:59
Of CVS! Right, but here's my point like, yes, it's like a small moment in the book. And then that's it. It's not a big deal. They don't talk about it again
Sarah MacLean 39:06
No! Becasue really, it really shouldn't be. It's a pill that you took after you had sex. It's fine.
Jennifer Prokop 39:12
Yeah, it's fine. And the fact that it is coded as a romantic moment, to me, was really meaningful in this book, because what it's saying is, this is a decision, like we made together, right?
Sarah MacLean 39:26
Its partnership, [Yes.] Look. romance novels are about finding equal partnership, about standing shoulder to shoulder with somebody who you want to spend the rest of your life with, right? Happily ever after in a romance novel involves partnership. And we have seen over the years, a whole lot of books about partnership around pregnancy, partnership around babies-- like the secret baby trope is about noble men who quote, "do the right thing" and marry the girl. Right? And, and are our solid, sound partners in a relationship. And this is also really wonderful partnership. It's, "we're in this together, you are not wholly responsible for not getting pregnant, I'm responsible, too." And like that's real sexy.
Jennifer Prokop 40:24
It was! And you know what? I think it's it, and that's why, I think our conception of that first time you saw a condom-- and it felt fumbling and awkward and weird, right? no, because it's like us saying, it's the couple saying, "our safety is important. Your health and safety is important to me." And this is the same thing, right?
Sarah MacLean 40:46
I would really love, and I'm going to text, I'm going to text, I'm going to tweet at Bowling Green and see if the guy, the people there, know. But I would really love it, if you're a listener, and you can sort of think back to your old school experiences, I'd really love to know who started this condom thing. [Yeah.] Because they were not on the page in those early contemporaries.
Jennifer Prokop 41:10
No, they weren't, never.
Sarah MacLean 41:12
No! Who...
Jennifer Prokop 41:13
When did that happen? Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 41:14
Can somebody find a date? I would guess it has something to do with the AIDS epidemic.
Jennifer Prokop 41:20
Yeah, it must have, right.
Sarah MacLean 41:22
I mean, this is, this is me like super spitballing. But I would be very interested. I'm also going to ask Kelly Faircloth at Jezebel if she's done any research on this, because I feel like somebody out there knows where condoms came from in romance--
Jennifer Prokop 41:37
--when it started. Yeah--
Sarah MacLean 41:38
right? And maybe I'm wrong. Maybe they have been there since beginning. Maybe Mills and Boon has been using them forever.
Jennifer Prokop 41:45
I don't. I felt like there was a sea change, though. And I remember it happening, right? And I remember the conversations where people are like, "No way" and then it just happened. And I feel like this Melanie Greene book to me was the perfect example of how Plan B can be used the same way, right?
Sarah MacLean 42:01
Well, that Ruby Lang book. Yes. Which we recommended it on an on a another podcast here, but recently
Jennifer Prokop 42:10
When we did best friend's sibling, right?
Sarah MacLean 42:11
"Clean Breaks." The Heroine is an OBGYN and she, not only does she counsel a character on the page about abortion, the condom breaks. Ruby reminded us today that a condom breaks in that book. And the-- I'm just getting it, I'm just pulling it up-- and the hero basically says like, "I'll marry you." Everyone is like, "Um, no, thank you, first of all. Second of all, like I'm a professional human being. And also a fucking OB, and we're going to get some emergency contraception and it's going to be fine." Right? And, you know, Ruby's awesome and we love her. We stan her hard here.
Jennifer Prokop 42:58
I think the other side of the contraception question, though, is... because Jenny Holiday's whole "Bridesmaids Behaving Badly" series has women dealing with these issues in one way or another. So one of the friends has really severe endometriosis and her period is a plot point, right? Like and how, like how debilitating her pain is. And I've talked about one of those series, she then does get pregnant and has to like really consider: I never thought I'd be a mother. Is this what I want? But Wendy, who's another friend, takes Plan B. And then Jane, another one of them, is... they're going to be childless by choice. And you can only be childless by choice if you have contraception available to you! And so that is a series that aren't fully, for all of them, like weaves in the decisions that women are making-- about who and what they want their futures to be like. And then what, or not, and there's an-- I really like that there's no judgment or blaming. You know, Jane, not wanting kids is not really a thing that-- you know I'm spacing on her name, the one who was like "I would be I would desperately love kids but I have endometriosis"-- She's not mad that her friend doesn't want them. Right. Like it's just women with different choices and they all support each other. And I think that see that whole series is really committed, like Kresley, I think, to really talking about contraception in a, like, a really comprehensive way for different women at different points in their lives and what they want and different couples.
Sarah MacLean 44:39
Yeah, I mean, I think that there is, I think we-- but Jen, you and I've talked so much about the fact that these body issues, these kind of endometriosis, One of my very favorite romance novels of the last few years, is a really beautiful, erotic, friends to lovers romance called "Unconventional" by Isabel love. The heroine, So it's basically like "friends with benefits," like they know each other, they have mutual friends. They are each-- it's like they're the, they're the Marie and Jess in the "When Harry Met Sally" relationship here, they're like,
Jennifer Prokop 45:19
Oh, got it.
Sarah MacLean 45:19
Okay, um, they're like the Carrie Fisher and Bruno Kirby characters. So, and then they sort of meet through this couple, this middle couple. And they have this like beneficial relationship. She's divorced, because she had to have a hysterectomy when she was very young while she was married to another man. And he left her because he wanted to have children. And so she sort of has this sense of, well, there is no future. There's no long term relationship in my future because I can't have children, and like, that's part of a long term future. She has this relationship with with Charlie--that's the hero's name. And they have this like incredibly sexy relationship that involves exhibitionism and voyeurism. You'll love that part. And there's there are threesomes in it. And like, it's really an incredibly sexy relationship. And he starts to fall for her, and she's so panicked by shame. Like, she has such shame for this reality. I mean, like, this happens to women, and she doesn't, she's, she kind of protects herself and protects herrself from loving him because she's so afraid that he'll reject her. Because, you know, she feels in some way "less than" because she's had something happen to her. And he's ultimately, and he wants kids like he sort of is very open about the fact that he wants kids and she's just like, "I, you know, that's never going to happen, that's not going to happen." And then when it finally sort of, when it's when she reveals It, when she's like, "I love you, but I can't be with you because of this. I would never ask you to give up that dream to be with me." He's like, "I love you. Kids are separate from this. Kids don't-- you I love! kids are an imaginary thing."
Jennifer Prokop 47:16
Right? Right.
Sarah MacLean 47:17
And they have their happily ever after. And it's really beautifully done, because it's very honest. You know, we have all, I mean maybe we have not, I don't want to speak for every woman, but I feel like many, many, many, many women, myself included, have felt over time, sort of shame about things with our bodies that we can't control. [Yeah] and this book does that beautifully. And it feels very authentic and honest, and also super sexy.
Jennifer Prokop 47:50
Again, I used that like phrase earlier that sometimes your body betrays you, one. So I want to return to talking about abortion maybe at the end, because there's one book I think that's really interesting by Melonie Johnson. But I want to talk about miscarriage first because I do feel like, and you have written really one of my-- and I, you know I I'm not here to stan for Sarah MacLean all the time--
Sarah MacLean 48:15
--we don't stan for me that often--
Jennifer Prokop 48:18
But "Day of the Duchess" is probably one of my top three favorite romances ever.
Sarah MacLean 48:25
That's very kind.
Jennifer Prokop 48:27
And I think some, but miscarriage is something that romance does put on page. Abortion is something a little different; Miscarriage, it happens a lot. And I, and I actually wrote a whole piece once about it because I was just really curious...what is it that's happening on the page? And like not every miscarriage is sort of doing the same thing. It's mining different like emotional like depths. So I want you to talk about "Day the Duchess," but we can talk.. and I mentioned the Piper Huguley book,
Sarah MacLean 48:57
I should add, "Day of the Duchess" has stillbirth in it. I mean it's a [yeah], it is it's obviously, it's it's a type of miscarriage, but it's a lot. It's very intense. It does happen, it happens right at the very beginning of the book. I know that it, it has, I want, I just want to very strongly content warn this for anybody who who might have trouble with stillbirth as a plot. I mean, I, that book is very personal for me. I have not had a stillbirth. But I have had pregnancy issues. And I was working through some stuff. I wanted to write a book that was about women and the way that we relate to our bodies as failures. And that's because I was going through some stuff. I have had, I-I've had trouble with pregnancy. I've had I had trouble breastfeeding. I have felt a lot of shame about what my body can and cannot do. And I hate that. So many women, one in four women, one in four pregnancies, end in miscarriage and/or stillbirth. And the reality is that we are trained and conditioned to believe that that is a malfunction of our body. And the reality is, is that when 25% of something-- when 25% of times-- something happens, that's not a malfunction. It's just, it's just a thing that happens. And I hate that women are shamed by that. And I hate that it is so emotional and that it is so personal and that it is so private and that we keep it to ourselves and we struggle with so much anger and frustration. [Yeah], and I, that's all in this book. I mean, that's what this book is and yeah,
Jennifer Prokop 51:06
Well and I think the reader's experience is always really different. And one of the reasons that book moved me, right, is like not just because of the grovelling, but because of her journey and--
Sarah MacLean 51:19
You love a grovel.
Jennifer Prokop 51:20
I do love a grovel, but--
Sarah MacLean 51:21
--it is an epic grovel, I will admit.
Jennifer Prokop 51:23
Yeah, yeah, it is, but there's this part in particular where she's basically, she knows something is wrong. And you use, it's like I've called it a miscarriage, but you're, it's like really a stillbirth right?
Sarah MacLean 51:28
She's...very far along.
Jennifer Prokop 51:39
Yeah, she knows something is wrong. And to me, there's this, like the most chilling kind of scene in this book, and it is probably within the first 20 pages, maybe even earlier. She knocks on the door right there. They're separated. And the you know-- whoever answers the fucking door, the footman or whatever-- and she feels like she has to say that there's something wrong with the baby in order to get in the door. That's what I remember, right? And he's like, "there's someting wrong?" And she's like, "With the heir" essentially. And I remember thinking, not only is it this failure of her body, but it was this devastating moment where she knew that this baby was more important than she was in terms of how she was going to get the help she needed. And in that way, I guess, things have not really changed that significantly. But to me it was this, like, heart rending moment. And romance I know delivers those moments. But one of the things I've said to people about this book is: it's the rare romance that starts with the low moment, and it's the lowest of low moments, and then we have to see them recover. And I think it's brilliant and not just because you're sitting here, but
Sarah MacLean 52:59
Well, you're very kind. I mean, I do want to say one thing about that book because it's a-- you know that I struggled with it. Serafina, who is the main character of that book, she's the heroine of that book, believes she's barren. She's told after she loses the child by the doctor-- or the sort of male doctor who's been brought in as a voice of patriarchy-- that she'll never have children again. And so, and she, she has a very specific condition -- medically her stillbirth, her stillbirth is not coincidental. It's medical. It's a condition that actual real human females have. And she ends up believing that she is barren. And at the end, and I'm going to spoil the ending of this book. They have children. And they have them in the epilogue and they have more than one because my-- I realized that I couldn't write, I wanted to write a birth. I wanted to write a live birth. And I couldn't write the next live birth because it would be full of fear.
Jennifer Prokop 54:09
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Sarah MacLean 54:10
--and terror. So I had to, I had to give them more than one child in that in that epilogue, and I ended up giving them lots of children. But I have received letters-- and I know that there's a lot of discussion in romancelandia about this--the sort of magic child that comes at the end for a barren couple. And I went back and forth. And there are two versions of that epilogue, one where they have children and one where they do not. And we-- my editor and I-- went over it again and again and again. And I actually just pulled the trigger on the epilogue literally the last possible day before it went to print. And I gave them children instead of not giving them children, and I did it for lots of reasons. And I can tell you they were happy either way. And I probably did it for me more than for them. It was this-- "Day the Duchess" is an incredibly personal book for me for many, many reasons. And so for me, it was really important to me that, that experience happened on the page and that they have happily ever after with children. But I want to say that there is there was no reason why they couldn't have happily ever after without children.
Jennifer Prokop 55:34
And it's funny because I know people struggle with that, I don't, I never struggle with it in historicals because I feel like-- some quack told her she couldn't have kids again based on.. what? you know. Yeah. And whereas in a contemporary,I will say the, like, "all of a sudden I just got pregnant because I was with the right man" plot.
Sarah MacLean 55:56
Right. The magic, magic sperm.
Jennifer Prokop 55:57
Yeah, that part -- meh. You can stop that. It's 2019.
Sarah MacLean 56:02
I mean, the baby epilogue is-- it's a lie. It's something that we all sort of need to talk about because it is sort of heteronormative. And there's, you know, there's a lot about it that is, that needs to be unpacked. And I think it's a conversation that it's healthy for us to have as romance, as people who talk about romance. But I also acknowledge that I love a baby in an epilogue, so you know, but I also have a baby and I like baby, so whatever.
Jennifer Prokop 56:30
That's a personal problem.
Sarah MacLean 56:31
If you know-- if your choice is-- it's "your body, your choice", "your marriage, your choice", "your partnership, your choice." And that's all we're just trying to get at.
Jennifer Prokop 56:41
Yeah, there's a lot of books with miscarriages.
Jennifer Prokop 56:44
Yeah, we've talked about that.
Sarah MacLean 56:44
Yeah, I mean, I want to just shout out my favorite Julia Quinn novel, which is "The Secret Diaries of Miss Miranda Cheever." It may not be Miss Miranda Cheever, but "Secret Diaries of Miranda Cheever" there's a miscarriage in that book that is devastating. I honestly believe that is Julia Quinn's best book, it is emotional and intense. And the miscarriage is so important. But again, it's told through the lens of the heroine's experience. And I know you have thoughts about this.
Sarah MacLean 57:16
Women, if it's happening to your body, it's your experience, you own it.
Jennifer Prokop 57:20
Right? Yeah, I believe that I totally do. And I think it also makes sense to me that romance would like, I don't know, mine miscarriage is a possible topic. Because it is so personal and because so much of romance is about, about hope and about.. and so like exploring the ways in which women experience failure, but then bounce back and figure out who they are after that. I think that for many women-- and I also think you're right, like it's not so--it's very hard to talk about. But then in a book, it gives you a way to like have that experience, right? You're with you're this heroine becomes your friend who is going through this experience. And I think that that is something that, it's a way for us to sort of collectively share our miscarriage stories kind of with each other.
Sarah MacLean 58:16
Sure, you know, loss of a child is normalized in romance, and that's valuable. That's valuable for every woman, every one of that 24% or 25% of women, of pregnancies. What's interesting is that 25% of women before they turned -- before they turn 45, in the United States-- will have an abortion. And we have not normalized abortion.
Jennifer Prokop 58:42
No. No, we sure have not.
Sarah MacLean 58:44
--as a genre.
Jennifer Prokop 58:46
Here's the bad way we've normalized it.
Sarah MacLean 58:49
Uhhh, I hate this way.
Jennifer Prokop 58:50
I do, too. And I'm real fucking over it, which is the hero has been traumatized by bad ex who had an abortion that he didn't want her to have.
Sarah MacLean 59:04
Yeah, she either didn't tell him, and then she told him to stick it to him, Or she didn't tell him she was pregnant and then he found out.
Jennifer Prokop 59:11
Yeah, like, it's real bad.
Sarah MacLean 59:13
Fuck. That. Noise. Burn it with fire.
Jennifer Prokop 59:18
That plot really needs to die. And you know what? Those are plots actually to that have been around a really long time. In one way or another.
Sarah MacLean 59:26
I want to, I'm going to confess something, which is 20 years ago, when those plots were everywhere. I liked that, because I was like, oh-- that again!-- it sort of says, it's code, it's codifying like nobility of the hero, right? Like it's codifying maturity, readiness for commitment, willingness to partner, the ability to be a decent father, and like take responsibility. These are all valuable tools
Jennifer Prokop 59:57
Like some deep well of emotional feeling, too, right?
Sarah MacLean 1:00:00
Sure, sure. It was, it's humanity, It's a hero's humanity coded in there. I get it. It's great shorthand, but at the same time, like it's real problematic shorthand.
Jennifer Prokop 1:00:10
Not right now.
Jennifer Prokop 1:00:12
You know it, for me, it was like pre- and post- Smith College. Pre Smith College there was, "Oh, I love theseevil abortion storylines." And after Smith College, I was like, "No. Absolutely not. Abortion is for everyone."
Jennifer Prokop 1:00:26
And I think it also really, I mean, here's the other thing, though, it doesn't just code something for the hero, it codes something for the heroine, right? Which is that she is committed to mothering and family. It's a very patriarchal way of like making sure we understand that this is "a good one," right? That this heroine is going to be different or better-- and better!-- right, and all those things because she would never do that.
Sarah MacLean 1:00:51
She would never do that to him. That's nonsense. A lot of people have very ordinary abortions, in marriages that are otherwise happy.
Jennifer Prokop 1:01:01
A book I really recommend that it's not a romance, It's called "Scarlet A: The ethics, law, and politics of ordinary abortion." And this woman, I saw her at the Chicago Humanities Festival. And she was this fascinating speaker where she was like, "we have like these sort of like, myths, these sort of abortion stories we tell. And then when we talk to real women who've had abortions, and none of them are true." It It is a great, great book. But I remember we've talked about our love for like kind of category romances in the 80s, and one of a series I really loved was the series by Barbara Boswell where these brothers all married these sisters.
Sarah MacLean 1:01:39
Oh, I love it already.
Jennifer Prokop 1:01:41
I know the Ramseys and the Bradys-- and here's the thing, in one of them, and I really remember this, and in one of them, Erin is the heroine. And she has like kids already, she's-- of course she's still like, she's 24-- and her, you know, she got pregnant right after high school and got married, and now the Dad's out of the picture. And she gets with this new man, and she they're not using birth control because he thinks he's barren because, from his previous marriage, they weren't able to have kids. And of course, now-- all of a sudden-- Erin's pregnant and he says, "You've been cheating on me!" They run into his ex wife at the mall, and the ex wife is like, "I'm just so glad that this happened. You know, it wasn't that I was barren it was that basically like his sperm and my egg like bad body chemistry"-- some 80s bullshit-- but I remember, I vividly remember this plot and and how angry, like rightfully so, Erin was at this ex wife for like, not ever really being honest with the hero right? But it's also super problematic to imagine that somehow she had medical knowledge that he didn't. Right? it's also crazy and it's this right the bad ex, who either withheld Or aborted a child, or whatever is s ... I... it's an automatic like, first of all, I'm not reading your book anymore. And I'm probably not reading you anymore.
Sarah MacLean 1:03:10
Yeah, yeah. I mean, certainly, you know, somebody on Twitter, I sort of ranted a little bit about this on Twitter yesterday, and somebody on Twitter came forward and was like, "In the 90s, I wrote this book." And I was like, "In the 90s, it was a different time!" We all have to have room to grow, right? We have room. We, I talk all the time about the fact that I've been writing for 10 years, what I wrote in 2009 is not representative necessarily, of what I write now in 2019, and like, that's just life. We have to have room to grow.
Jennifer Prokop 1:03:43
Sure. And that's romance. And that romance, right?
Sarah MacLean 1:03:46
We're moving too quickly. we're iterating on society, the whole time. That's fine. What I want is for us to as writers, as responsible citizens of the genre, for us to just try and do better. That's all we can ask for is that everybody try and do better. Can I just have a fun moment? It hasn't been a lot of fun moments, but I want to give a shout out to the only vasectomy I can think of, Jennifer. Which I had not actually thought about until you told that crazy story about the brothers marrying the sisters and the like, how he thought he was barren. And then he thought she was cheating on him. And that he--
Jennifer Prokop 1:04:24
The 80s! They also owned a mall, so it's all bad.
Sarah MacLean 1:04:28
Sure. Of course they did. Yeah.
Jennifer Prokop 1:04:30
The Ramsey Park. Well, the what their last name is Ramsey, the Ramsey Park Mall.
Sarah MacLean 1:04:36
Oh my god. What?
Jennifer Prokop 1:04:37
I actually bought these books on Amazon because I like right. I was like, I gotta have--
Sarah MacLean 1:04:41
Sure. Seminal texts. So... speaking of seminal texts,
Jennifer Prokop 1:04:48
I was like "ha ha." All right, I love you so much right now.
Sarah MacLean 1:04:53
Air high five. So okay, Jude Devereaux, who everyone knows is like my seminal text, "The Black Lyon," at the beginning of my time in romance, Jude Devereaux wrote a family saga, every book, like every book she ever has ever written has been a Montgomery book. And they have this like intense Montgomery, this Montgomery family tree, and the Montgomerys have a lot of twins. A lot. A lot. You're making a funny face.
Jennifer Prokop 1:05:22
Yeah, no, I'm just curious about like, tell me more. Where's this all going?
Sarah MacLean 1:05:25
FYI everybody, Jen and I have a twin interstitial coming. So, I'm not going to give you too much information about the Montgomery twins because I'm sure we'll talk about the full twin experience then, but this is a good one. So at some point, so "Sweet liar" is this contemporary, like wacky kind of time travel-y? ghosty? like St. Valentine's Day Massacre, Chicago period? Like weird... there's a lot packed into this book "Sweet Liar" Hero's name is Michael. I don't remember the heroines name because it doesn't matter. Michael is a twin. And he's like, he has a lot-- There's a lot-- Michael is pretty dreamy and weird and kind of amazing. But there's this legend in the Montgomery family of one of the cousin's got, he's... here... They're so virile, all the men, all the men in the Montgomery family. Virility is also a big piece of romances of a time, right? And they're so virile, and one of the men had a vasectomy, because his wife is like, "I've had too many of your fucking babies. Like, we're not doing this anymore. You're getting a vasectomy." And so he went off and he got a vasectory and he came back and then they had sex, and she got pregnant, and he was convinced she had cheated on him. And she was like, "Fuck you. I'm getting a paternity test for this baby," which she did. And she was like, "see it is your baby, you're just too virile for vasectomy."
Jennifer Prokop 1:06:42
I am dead over here.
Sarah MacLean 1:07:16
If I remember correctly, he buys her like a Porsche and like a 10 carat diamond ring to apologize--
Jennifer Prokop 1:07:24
for basically having super Montgomery sperm--
Sarah MacLean 1:07:26
For basically having crazy Jude Deveraux sperm.
Jennifer Prokop 1:07:31
Oh, guys, that's some good stuff right there, that really is.
Sarah MacLean 1:07:35
You know what, that's the perfect example of like, some crazy shit and romance novel, that definitely coded some real problematic, like virility issues into my life. However, I really love that a vasectory was on the page. And I love that the heroine was like, "fuck you were getting a paternity test." Like, it was great. This isn't actually the heroine of that book, but whatever it's referenced. It's a story that's referenced in there. I like that the vasectory was just codified like, this is a thing that happens even though in this particular case it didn't work because he has super sperm.
Jennifer Prokop 1:08:07
Well, I mean, Hello Sarah.
Sarah MacLean 1:08:09
But obviously, he's a Montgomery, so stay tuned for our twin episode and more Montgomery shenanigans. Um, what else?
Jennifer Prokop 1:08:17
I want to end this episode by talking about this Melonie Johnson book. So I don't know if we're ready for it yet.
Sarah MacLean 1:08:22
Let's do it. Because we're,
Jennifer Prokop 1:08:24
yeah, we're like, we're over an hour, everyone's like, "Oh my god, stop being so angry!" "No, never." Um, here's the thing. One of the things that was really interesting is when you asked on Twitter about abortion books, like there really were a handful, right? So there's a book by Jenny Trout, one of the Tiffany Reisz-- Nora, I guess in one of the Original Sinners books. But I want to talk about this book by Melonie Johnson called "Once upon a Bad Boy," and it doesn't actually come out until June 25, So I don't want to spoil it entirely. But this is one of the few books-- like among a very small list of books-- we could have where like a heroine has an abortion. And, and in this case, it was something that the heroine and hero were like teenage, dating, dated as teenagers. They broke up, it was very sudden. He broke up with her. And then we get, it's 10-11 years later. So now, you know, they're almost 30, and one of the things that's really fascinating about this book, in terms of-- that the exploration of her journey, like the the abortion, is she does not have any regrets at all. About, I mean, she has moments of like, what-if-ism, right? What if, what if I would have made a different choice? She doesn't have any regrets. She doesn't feel any guilt. She doesn't feel like she did anything wrong. But what she has done is kept it a secret for 10 years because women in our society just don't talk about their abortions. And so that the pressure of keeping that all inside is something that has really-- like right, it's it's not the "what she did" that's the problem. It's the pressure to keep it a secret. And this is something that only her grandmother knows. I don't want to spoil the book, or like necessarily talk too much about why it happened. I was, I will be honest, I was really on the fence with it. I'm kind of ready for the heroine who is like, "Fuck yeah, I had abortion" and we just all0. move on. Right. It as matter of fact as taking Plan B but--
Sarah MacLean 1:10:31
--yeah, but is that really authentic?
Jennifer Prokop 1:10:33
Well, I think.. we certainly.. Well, according to "The Scarlet A" book, It is.
Sarah MacLean 1:10:37
No, no, I don't mean that. I mean, I mean, is it authentic for us to just sort of, for many of us to step forward and say--
Jennifer Prokop 1:10:44
Yes, I like Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 1:10:46
"Fuck yeah, I had an abortion." I mean, right. This is the problem, right? Like, we keep, we've spent the entire episode talking about how we keep our bodies secret.
Jennifer Prokop 1:10:57
Yes,
Sarah MacLean 1:10:57
Like we protect, and it's not It's, I mean, in part, its protection, right? Nobody wants--I spent the last two days like, you know, fighting people on the internet. Not everybody has the bandwidth or the desire to do that work. But the truth is, as long as this is, as long as our bodies, as long as the uterus is politicized, speaking up like that is a risk. And it's a risk that we should not expect any woman to have to take like,
Jennifer Prokop 1:11:33
absolutely.
Sarah MacLean 1:11:34
It's a risk that if you are willing to take it-- Jen and I are here for you! like we, I will, I Sarah, will fight you-- will fight for you. I will fight alongside
Jennifer Prokop 1:11:43
But we shouldn't insist that people have to--
Sarah MacLean 1:11:46
Yeah, and I think like there is a certain sense like look, it takes a lot to get past, codified, ingrained shame. And that is not to say that anybody should feel shame about an abortion. And that is to say that like many, many people in society expect you to. And that's, and like the way patriarchy sucks.
Jennifer Prokop 1:12:07
Well, and, you know, a really powerful piece I saw on Jezebel today was sort of like, okay, so for the past two days, everyone, you know, lots of people--women-- are getting out there and sharing their abortion stories, but we're not changing hearts and minds, the people who are closed to this, the people who, you know, think that it's, you know, who are pro-forced birth. Those people don't care about our stories. And I ended up finding, therefore, Sadie is the heroine of this Melanie Johnson book, I therefore-At first I was sort of like, I want you to feel less conflicted. But as the book went on, I ended up really feeling like it was an honest portrayal of, like, sort of--we all have regrets, right. And regret was, you know, it was a man she loved, it was a relationship that ended suddenly, it was, you know, now someone who's back in her life, it's a secret she kept from her best friend. It's, you know, and I, and I really found that journey to her acceptance of-- not the decision she made, she never regrets that decision-- but like the need to hide it. And that felt, I will be honest with you. I have never read anything like it in romance before.
Sarah MacLean 1:13:31
Well, that is a high praise. No matter, no matter what this book is like, that's, I want to read thing-- that we we owe it to women to tell every possible story. We owe it to all people, to all marginalized people to tell every possible story of happiness. And that is, that's our work as writers--as a genre.
Jennifer Prokop 1:13:53
Well, and I think one of the things I kept thinking about, was we talk a lot about representation matters, right? Like it is really vitally important that if you that we're not sort of saying like, okay, I read this romance with a black character, now I've read romance with black characters. No, you haven't! You read one! And part of the problem with there being so few stories in romance where women have abortions is then we hang our entire like hopes, dreams and needs for that book, that story inromance, on this one book.
Sarah MacLean 1:14:29
Right.
Jennifer Prokop 1:14:29
Right. Are these three books? And that is why we need more of them.
Sarah MacLean 1:14:34
We need more. I mean, the fact that.. Jen is right. I mean, I said 15 books the beginning there, there are maybe 15 books on that list. Many of them are Plan B. Some of them have no abortion at all, but have a doctor in them. So if we're talking about fewer fewer than 10, less than 10 books on this list, hive minded from our romance Twitter people, and old school romance, the book club that I host on Facebook-- Which you can join, If you'd like to--
Sarah MacLean 1:15:02
Yeah, we'll put it in show notes. I'm like, "That's an incredible hivemind." And if we can only come up with this number, like there aren't that many more, there really just aren't, I'm sure of it. I mean, every, if again, we go back to one quarter of all American women under the age of 45 have had an abortion. And there are--that is millions of stories!-- and we're not, and what is happening? I mean, it just takes us back to that original question, which is: why in this genre that has made, carved out, such important domestic space-- and I say domestic as, like female centered, like women's centered space; as a genre, as a matter of course, centering the female gaze and female identity and female politics, or women's politics, I should say-- how have we never, how have we not come to a place where there are at least, you know, 250 we can point to?
Jennifer Prokop 1:15:02
we'll put it in show notes.
Jennifer Prokop 1:16:12
Exactly! I mean, and that's the part where when you see how small the sample size is and you know, this Melanie Johnson book-- I'm about where you're going to hear about it next week-- it's going to be available a month later and we will signal boost it, you know, to high heaven once it actually comes out-- because I do think that I found Sadie's journey as like an individual character, and her moments of sadness, and her her sense that she couldn't... I mean, I found it all very moving and I thought, you know what, we deserve to see a woman who was, "Yeah, I kind of have some regrets and sometimes I wish 'What if' and I still know I did the right thing, and it was still my decision to make."
Sarah MacLean 1:16:56
Well, because bodies are nuanced!
Jennifer Prokop 1:16:58
Feelings are complicated!
Sarah MacLean 1:17:00
It is not an easy discussion, which is clear in the in the world. And it's why Jen and I rage so hard when anybody comes at this with a black and white answer. This is a hard conversation to have. And all I think I'm saying is: I stand with women being able to make their own choices about their own bodies. And that's really all.
Jennifer Prokop 1:17:24
That's it. Right? Well, and I think that that's why we don't, we started out talking about trans men and trans women and and sort of bodies and who we are but-- if you believe in bodily autonomy for women, then I think you have to believe in bodily autonomy for everybody. And I think you have to look at people and say, "I want you to be who you are in the world. And I want the world to accept you and that journey for what it is and if romance cannot be there for that in every way, then romance is not doing what it needs to do to support the people who need it the most."
Sarah MacLean 1:18:07
Right? If it's the genre of hope, and happiness, it has to be the genre of hope and happiness for all of us.
Jennifer Prokop 1:18:17
Yeah, no exceptions. No exceptions.
Sarah MacLean 1:18:21
No.
Jennifer Prokop 1:18:22
Except Nazis. Except Nazis.
Jennifer Prokop 1:18:26
But I mean, and that's the part where I find this conversation and these books, you know, and I know we talked about like a probably 50 different books today. And we didn't even talk about all the books that we could have. But I mean, I think we were really interested in exploring what is it that romance is doing really well? Romance is talking about miscarriage. It's talking about grieving and loss. You know, romance is talking about condoms and safe sex. Romance is talking about preventing pregnancy. But it's not really talking at all about abortion. And this is about to be a right that many of us are not going have access to anymore. And that fear is something I would like to see romance normalizing for ourselves as women and for readers. And I get I'm not a writer, right? I don't have to make a living off my book selling and putting my kid through college. You know, I know those risks are out there. But I hope that we all get behind Melonie Johnson's book and prove that there is a market for like nuanced stories about women who make hard decisions for themselves, or easy decisions for themselves, but they make those decisions for themselves.
Sarah MacLean 1:18:35
Except Nazis.
Sarah MacLean 1:18:54
People deserve to have body autonomy. period. Tthat said, what I do want to add is that we are, I think, and this is me sort of looking into my romance crystal ball, I think this week could be, this could have started a sea change among writers thinking about the fact that we don't-- we limit, we create space to talk about bodies, our bodies and how they work. And like you said, we create space to talk about sorrow and shame around the way our bodies work. But we don't we have limit, we have stopped, we've come to a stopping point when we get to this piece of the puzzle. And I think a lot, a lot of romance novelists, I mean, just in the last two days, I've heard from so many writers who acknowledged that they've never tackled it, but they want to. And so I would like to think that a year from now we're going to start seeing in books a little more. I don't think we're ever going to see it every book, like I don't think we're-- and that's not what I'm asking for--But I think we're going to see more and more and more of these stories on the page. And that's all we're asking for. We're just asking for us all to just think a little more carefully about representing that choice that a lot of us have made. And, and I mean a lot! I just, I gave an interview about this today and I just feel like I said at some point, you know, everyone, everyone knows a woman who has who has done this, everyone has interacted with a person who has done this, you may not know, and nobody is asking anyone to risk like I said earlier--
Jennifer Prokop 1:21:28
--if it's not safe for you to share that story, either emotionally or physically or for whatever reason, like I like, no one's gonna push anybody into the limelight. But romance then is a way-- like miscarriage-- where we can share our stories and, there's truth in fiction. I say that to my students all the time.
Sarah MacLean 1:21:49
Romance is a private space. It is private space for people who read romance and it's and it's so far removed from like the prying eyes of the world, the rest of the world. If we can't have this conversation here in our private space, where can we have this conversation safely? And look, the reality is that readers-- there are going to be readers who don't like it. And so it's going to take risk, and it's going to take bravery. And I really am looking forward to the, to the books that come from it.
Jennifer Prokop 1:22:24
Yeah. Well, and you know what? I think your crystal ball is right on because when I think about the books that I talked about tonight, like specifically, right, Jenny Holiday's books, that whole series, the Melanie Green Book, the Melonie Johnson book, these are books that are all 2018 or later.
Sarah MacLean 1:22:41
Yeah, Ruby Lang.
Jennifer Prokop 1:22:42
Right. Ruby Lang. I mean, so we are already we are talking about old books within a lot of the books that we are like talking about right now are RIGHT NOW. So we, these are really the women who are putting these things on the page. They're the forerunners. And if we support these books and buy these books and show that there's a market for these stories, then we work-- we will get more of them. I know that there are books that we missed we tried to cast the widest possible net.
Sarah MacLean 1:23:11
Well, we've only had 48 hours, so we're going to, I'm committed to reading all those books on the list. And so you know, follow me on twitter, follow the Fated Mates Twitter account, and I'll tweet about the ones that are great and hopefully we'll get more. If you have a book, listeners, if you have read a book where there's an abortion on the page, please please rec us you know, good good abortion rep, we want that. Tell us about books that have meant something to you, as representing kind of body autonomy and and the body politic. We're interested in that. Jen and I especially are interested in how, how fertility and contraception and all of that lives on the page. If you can point to an early use of a condom in a contemporary, we want to hear all about it.
Jennifer Prokop 1:24:16
definitely want to hear all about that.
Sarah MacLean 1:24:18
I'm gonna do some research. And you know, again, follow Fated Mates on Twitter, follow me on Twitter, follow us on Instagram, we'll put everything there.
Jennifer Prokop 1:24:24
I mean, I think that's it, we are, it's a call to action, right? Because we know that when you change people's worldview and their empathy and the way they think about the choices we get to make and to have that we change the world. The urgency of this isn't just like, because we want you to have better books to read. It's because when we change the way we think about what our possibilities are, we change our futures.
Sarah MacLean 1:24:53
Well, that's a good place to stop. I think.You're listening to Fated Mates, Everybody. Follow us on Twitter @fatemates follow us on Instagram @fatedmatespod. Go over to our website, fatedmates.net and check out the show notes on your apps or over on fatedmates.net. You can leave comments there. You can talk to us any time. Leave us reviews, all that good stuff. Next week we are back with "Dark skye." Another another broken demon man. He's a demon, right? I mean, a winged demon.
Jennifer Prokop 1:25:35
And I think it's going to be very relevant and interesting conversation. Yeah, to this one that we well. Kresley always is, but I think this book in particular, is really landing at a time where I think it's gonna be really interesting. So, go out and do something you want to do with your body today.
Sarah MacLean 1:25:52
Have a good night.
S02.24: Quick and Dirty Romance
It’s February and it’s winter and it’s grey and dark and we’re all just looking for some books that are quick, dirty and delicious. Or, at least, Sarah & Jen are. If you are, too, this is the week for you!
We love having you with us! — subscribe on your favorite podcasting platform and like/review the podcast if you’re so inclined!
Next week, we’re reading the Queen of Dirty Talk! Sarah and Jen both love Tessa Bailey — so we’ll be talking about our two favorites of her books, Asking for Trouble (Sarah’s) and Protecting What’s His (Jen’s). Find them at: Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, or Kobo.
Show Notes
Sarah had boozy brunch with the RITA Writer’s Room—Nisha Sharma, LaQuette, Adriana Herrera, Andie Christopher, Alexis Daria, and Joanna Shupe (Sierra Simone & Tracey Livesay weren't there). You should maybe check out this awesome video of them in all their slow motion glory.
Jen didn’t know what ASMR is either.
Valentine’s Day is Go Week for Sarah. Jen wrote about Galentine’s Day for Kirkus. But one thing we can all agree on: Anna Karenina isn’t a fucking romance. Getting hit by a train does not qualify!
The 2 for 1 rule: in a male/female romance, she comes twice for every time he comes.
If you’re in Chicago, you can see Fated Mates Live at Spring Fling, and at KissCon, it’ll be a podcast ménage special with us, the Wicked Wallflowers, and Heaving Bosoms podcast.
What will Craven Day 2021 bring? Stay tuned.
Sarah’s friend Rachel Hawkins told Sarah to read A Heart of Blood and Ashes by Milla Vane, which is a pen name for Meljean Brook, author of The Iron Duke. Is there danger banging? Yes. Is there vengeance banging? Also yes.
Jen read and loved White Out by Adriana Anders, which is a romantic suspense novel that takes place in Antarctica. It’s cold, but they still manage to danger bang.
Speaking of Danger Banging, Jen’s favorite is in the first of the Kinky Bank Robbers series by Annika Martin. It's honestly more like heat-stroke banging.
Jen and Sarah don’t think a quick and dirty read has to be InstaLust, but it does have to get right to the inciting incident.
Sarah recommends London Hale (a pen name for authors Ellis Lee and Brighton Walsh) as a reliable quick and dirty read. Start with The DILF (if you're ok with taboo) or Talk Dirty To Me (if you'd prefer something a bit further left on the Simone Scale).
Adopt don’t shop when it comes to real pet stores.
Breastfeed if you can and if you want to, but if you can’t that’s fine, too. Even if you live in Fucking Berkeley. Or the Berkeley of Brooklyn.
Some other of our favorite quick and dirty reads that are mostly in space: Grace Goodwin’s Interstellar Brides and Ruby Dixon’s Ice Planet Barbarians. But if you’re reading the Ice Planet Barbarians,please listen to our friend Dani’s Ice Planet Pod. It’s great.
More space romances: Laurann Donner’s New Species series, or Cavas, the one that appeared recently on the USA Today Bestseller list (not the New York Times, Jen misspoke) is one from the Vorge Series. Cynthia Sax has a whole cyborg series. Jen also really liked The Grabbed series by Lolita Lopez.
What we're trying to say is that these books are the romance equivalent of The Fast and the Furious series--which is the pinnacle of Jen's favorite movie genre, "Handsome men blow things up."
Finally, check out Brill Harper’s alphamallow series. But Jen’s favorite was Altogether, which is very, very hot. Yum. This Mr. Plow is not quite as hot; unless your name is Marge, of course.
Buy buttons and stickers from Kelly and t-shirts and totes from Jordandene.
S02.23: Waking Up with the Duke: Lorraine Heath Breaks A Lot of Romance Rules
This week, it’s one of Sarah’s favorites, and by an author Jen has never read! Lorraine Heath is a master of the historical, and this one is near-perfect. It’s complex and nuanced and it has an infidelity plot and THERE IS SO MUCH ANGST!
We love having you with us! — subscribe on your favorite podcasting platform and like/review the podcast if you’re so inclined!
In two weeks, we’re reading the Queen of Dirty Talk! Sarah and Jen both love Tessa Bailey — so we’ll be talking about our two favorites of her books, Asking for Trouble (Sarah’s) and Protecting What’s His (Jen’s). Find them at: Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, or Kobo.
Show Notes
Turns out Sarah and Jen aren't the only people who think these Apple keyboards are trash--after winning a 2020 Oscar for Best Adapted Screenplay, Taika Waititi had quite a bit to say on the subject.
Tom Beer is one of Jen's editors at Kirkus, and you should follow him on Twitter.
You can read The Smith College Sophian on line, and we'll link to the interview with Sarah onces it goes live.
We have Leslie Knope from Parks & Recreation to thank for the glory that is Galentine's Day. Read Jen's column about some books that celebrate women's friendship.
A few years ago during #RomBkLove, Shantastic/@bardsong wrote a great piece about disability in romance. You can also check out the blog, Sense and Disability by @Callalily.
Kate Reading is an amazing audiobook narrator, she's the one who narrates Lord of Scoundrels.
Fridging is a word from comics that is when women characters are killed to motivate a male character, but can be used to describe any time a less powerful or privileged character is used as a plot device. Flat Stanley is a character in children's books, but flat characters you might remember from English class.
Harry and Meghan are still taking money from the Duchy of Cornwall.
Jen said she was going to go back and read the other books in the trilogy, and they are bundled together on Amazon for $10.
The Bechdel Test is a pretty simple way of judging how inclusive movies are of women characters; it's limited but powerful. Jen wrote about external and internal conflict in romance, but we also talked about it on the Priest episode -- and we are always unpacking the way conflict works in romance.
Dialogue tags get a bad rap, famously Elmore Leonard claimed that writers should only use "said" and "asked." In this part of the discussion, Sarah mentioned her friend Barry Lyga, a YA author.
Jen thinks these three are codependent.
Cheating is the third rail of romance. It is. There are some lists on Goodreads of romances that have cheating, but it's complicated and difficult. One Jen read recently was I Want You Back by Lorelei James, but the cheating happened in the past. If you're interested in reading another book about someone who discovers the other family, Jen recommends Silver Sparrow by Tayari Jones.
Next time, we'll be reading Tessa Bailey, The Queen of Dirty Talk. Sarah's choice is Asking for Trouble, and a secondary text is the first one of that same series, Protecting What's His.
Buy stickers and buttons from Kelly and t-shirts from Jordan.
We are experimenting with some voice to text transcripts, so here's the first one for this episode.
S02.22: Sarah's on Deadline AMA
We promised we’d get to the rest of our Holiday AMA questions eventually, and Sarah’s on deadline, so this seemed like the perfect week to do it! Join us for a freewheeling hour during which Sarah cannot remember Tessa Thompson’s name, we talk about how much we’d like to meet Sandra Brown, and how romance really does have something for everyone, including an entire series about romance during power outages.
Also, we forgot to mention that Tuesday was Derek Craven Day! Lots of fun was had by all goofballs who joined us on the Internet to celebrate, and Lisa Kleypas herself even got involved! If you haven’t read Dreaming of You, you can get it for $2.99 right now in ebook! Also, do not miss this incredible Craven Day thread on Twitter from Steve Ammindown and the Browne Pop Culture Library. And if you want Derek Craven t-shirts? Those exist now!
Next week, the book is in and we’re back in business! Lorraine Heath’s Waking Up With the Duke is our next read—a book that blooded Sarah. Get it at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, or Kobo.
Show Notes
Question 1: Weird but true: the more specific the request, the more likely we are to come up with a recommendation. So if you just need "enemies to lovers" and you've already read Her Best Worst Mistake, or "friends to lovers" and you've already read Scoring Off the Field, then you just need to google it.
Question 2: Who are we fancasting? These beautiful people: Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, Henry Cavill, Tessa Thompson, and Tom Hardy. Also, listening to Henry Cavill and Tom Hardy grunt is one of our favorite things.
Question 3: Who do we want to have lunch or tea with? Kresley Cole, obviously! Sarah said Joanna Lindsey. Jen says Julie Garwood. We'd both love to meet Sandra Brown. Jen still can't believe the people she's met, and hopes she was cool like Yolanda.
Question 4: Do we have recommendation for lesbian and f/f romance? Is it more difficult to find? Check out Bold Strokes Books. strands of f/f, and others have different roots. We will keep looking for some history of f/f romance and link to them if we find one. But in the meantime, YA author, critic, and expert Malinda Lo wrote about "The Invisible Lesbian" in YA, and it's right on point and worth your time. But we do have lots of great f/f romances that we love in the photo array below.
Question 5: What about steampunk? Is that ever coming back? We don't know! But all we can do is recommend these ones we do know. Sorry!
Question 6: What is like Harry Potter for grown-ups? Burn For Me by Illona Andrews (Jen also liked the Kate Daniels series). That's it. That's the answer.
Question 7: Books with power outages? Read this Naima Simone series called Blackout Billionares.
Question 8: How to get started with reviewing and NetGalley? You should look at lists that big reviewing clearinghouses make--Kirkus (Jen writes that one!), Booklist, and PW. Just trying to look at some of these lists will give you a sense of what books will be coming out. The Book Queen is keeping a list of 2020 new releaes. But Estelle from Forever Romance wrote a great piece about how to get started with NetGalley.
Question 9: Looking for hardcore enemies to lovers with kids in the mix. Jen recommends Wait For It by Molly O'Keefe. Lord of Scoundrels is great for this, too!
Quesiton 10: Books that made us literally laugh out loud. Jen recommends I Think I Might Love You by Christina C Jones. Sarah recommends It Takes Two by Jenny Holiday. Christina has a huge backlist, and Jenny's newest book, Mermaid Inn, came out last week.
Question 11: Looking for books with a heist plot and polyamory. Jen thinks Katrina Jackson has cornered the market on this request and we have all been blessed by it.
Quesiton 12: A question if there are any romances with a Muslim hero and heroine with on-page sex. Jen couldn't think of any, but asked author Farah Heron. Farah also couldn't think of one, but we do recommend her book The Chai Factor.
Quesiton 13: Jackie from Elyria Ohio (where Jen went to high school!) is looking for historical with a murder and a twist. We recommend Kelly Bowen and Sarah's book No Good Duke Goes Unpunished.
Quesiton 14: Sarah is looking for books with virgin heroes--but hot!
Question 15: A book with a grovel so unconvincing that the character has to do it again. Oh, we have suggestions but also you should check out Jen's treatise on groveling.
Quesiton 16: What are some museums we love? Sarah talked about these in England: The Museum of London, The Foundling Museum, The Soane's Museum, and The British Library. She also loves the Museum of Sex in New York, and the Isabella Gardner Museum in Boston. Jen doesn't research, but in Chicago, she recommends The Art Institute and the National Museum of Mexican Art. If you're ever in Cleveland, the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame is so cool, and in Houston, check out the most meditative place Jen has ever been, The Rothko Chapel. (when this aired in Feb 2020, the chapel was temporarily closed for renovations! Please check the website).
S02.21: Old School Category Romance
This one is a RIDE, you guys! We wanted to do something really fun this week—something that would lighten the mood for us and for you. So, strap in, because we’re talking about our favorite Old School Category romances today! We’ve got something for everyone — wolves and dragons and marine biologists and single moms and more wolves!
A word of caution this week — we didn’t reread these books before we recorded, and they’re all published in the 80s and 90s, so tread lightly if you decide to read them…and let us know just how wrong we got the plots! (Just kidding, we’re for sure rereading all of them now).
Next week was supposed to be the deep dive of Lorraine Heath, but Sarah has a book due, so we’re putting it on hold—but stay tuned, because we’ve definitely got something coming! Waking Up With the Duke will definitely be the next read, though: Get it at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, or Kobo.
Show Notes
If you're looking for a real cool summer sleepaway camp, check out Camp Kupugani. They'll pick your kid up at O'Hare!
You can order girl scout cookies online now. Good luck to all of us.
If you're in Chicago, I guess you could go to Navy Pier; But if you're in Peru, you should definitely go to Machu Picchu.
That American Dirt story is real wild. This review by Myriam Gurba is amazing, and Vox has you covered with an entire explainer. Remezcla has better recommendations for books about the border.
If you want to know what makes something a category romance, Love in Panels has a very good explainer. Also, if you're interested in Harlequin covers now, Jen interviewed Tony Horvath for Kirkus. He's the creative director in charge of all of Harlequin series romance. You can also check out Kelly Faircloth's Instagram, where she posts pictures of her favorite old school romance covers.
Buying old category romances is easy. Check out ThriftBooks for the best prices and best shipping (Amazon charges for individual items from sellers), but also Better World Books. And if you're lucky enough, local thrift stores and used book stores. For more recent remaindered books, try Book Outlet.
We mentioned so many category series today. Check out this blog by Steve Imes with all the category series names and dates, and FictionDB for listings of books by series.
Sandra Brown wrote as Erin St. Claire and also Rachel Ryan. She was an 80s powerhouse who still writes romantic suspense. The book Sarah mentioned was Honor Bound, but Jen was thinking of a similar book called Hawk O'Toole's Hostage. Ope.
Jen reread and reviewed several of her first category romances for the Book Queen. The one about Pink Satin compares the book to the Harvey Weinstein case. It's honestly shocking how little has changed for women in the workplace.
White Satin was an early Iris Johansen about figure skating, but that author is also for being the book that inspired the "Who Did it Better on a Horse" post. And at the end of the episode, Sarah mentions that she had a house for sale if you're on the market, BECAUSE IT'S REALLY A MANSION.
Brad Pitt is old and still working because of the patriarchy.
Deep Tracks is the name of an XM radio station that plays B sides and less popular songs, which is very on brand for the books in this episode.
Maybe you'd like to read those goodreads reviews for The Lady and the Dragon. And here is the obituary for the author, Regan Forest.
Jen loved Barbara Boswell. She was a fan of the Brady/Ramsey series where a bunch of sisters married a bunch of brothers. And then this one that is Brady Bunch fanfic. Eight is enough, I swear! Was this all Roe v. Wade blowback?
You actually can still get Harlequin subscriptions, but the best current Romance subscription is definitely the Bawdy Bookworms box.
In Demon Lover, the heroine thinks the hero is a coyote, but he's really an undercover DEA agent. Jen asked the Smart Bitches to help her find it in 2018, when it was available as an eBook, but it isn't anymore! All you need to know is that these 80s covers celebrated the Tom Selleck mustache in a big way.
Warrior was last in the McKenzie-Blackthorn series by Elizabeth Lowell. Light a candle for Utah, who never got his book. Ao3 needs to get on it! #JusticeForUtah
Virginity is a construct! Also, here's where the hymen is in case you need to know.
Sarah's on deadline, so who knows what's going to happen next week. Buy some stickers, buttons, or t-shirts to tide yourself over while we figure it out.
Please check out the photo array below for books we referenced. You may remember that we recorded an entire episode on category romances with Andie Christopher, but Jen screwed up the recording. By then, we moved on with Andie to cinnamon rolls. But Andie recommended Driven by Fate by Tessa Bailey, and Jen talked about Every Road to You by Phyllis Bourne. Sarah proably talked about Hot Touch, but Jen can't really remember...we'll just think of that episode as the one that got away.
S02.20: Managed by Kristen Callihan: Scottie!!!
Scottie!!!!!!! It’s Managed week here at Fated Mates — this is one of Jen’s favorite romances, and we’re talking about it and the next book in Kristen Callihan’s VIP series, Fall. We’re revisiting the rockstar romance and the found family trope, talking about the slow burn, and Jen’s talking about first person present tense narration and not yelling…so it’s a banner episode!
Don’t miss a single moment of our 2020 episodes — subscribe on your favorite podcasting platform and like/review the podcast if you’re so inclined!
In two weeks, we’re reading one of Sarah’s picks, Lorraine Heath’s Waking Up With the Duke, which was a tough choice because Lorraine is amazing and Sarah wants you to read all of her books. Read Waking Up With the Duke at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, or Kobo.
Show Notes
Jen's disappointed with the iHeartRadio Podscast awards. It's an honor just to be nominated, and that didn't even happen! For your consideration: Best Pop Culture Podcast and Best Fiction Podcast! Come on! Literary Disco wasn't even nominated!
Everyone loved The Pegging episode! Jen found this really interesting article too late for those show notes, but why not drop them here? We don't really think that we jumped the shark. Oh, and any chance to drop the "smashing from the back" rap.
The 20 minutes Eric cut were about RWA. So just read Jen's article for Kirkus instead. Just kidding. We don't really need D & O insurance. Do we? Either way, Eric should stop harshing our dream mellow.
Our Kristen Callihan origin stories: Sarah recommends Evernight in the Darkest London series, but Jen can't help but think of Tony Stark. Jen wrote about Kristen's book The Hook Up in the Who Did it Better in the Library post.
Slumpbusters from this week: The Player and Sweet Ruin for Sarah, and two Sophie Jordan books, While the Duke was Sleeping and The Scandal of it All, for Jen. And the shipbuilder book by Holley Trent is called Lowdown Dirty.
If you're trying to find the sex scenes in books, Jenny Nordbak from the Wicked Wallflowers Podcast has the sure-fire keyword search word: thrust.
The kind of super fancy first class where the seats turn into beds looks pretty great. Recently, we saw this happen in the movie Crazy Rich Asians.
Unbuttoning a glove is a huge romantic moment in Lord of Scoundrels and The Age of Innocence.
In case you have to travel with a rock band on a bus, the internet provides useful tips, of course! Jen loves this famous tour bus scene from the movie Almost Famous. Also, read Daisy Jones and the Six, which uses interview format to tell the story of the rise and fall of a 70s rock band.
Our Rock Star Romance interstitial was our very first interstitial. It's 20 minutes long, and you can listen to it here.
Revision is everything, but it is also very hard.
Interested in more slow burn romances? Goodreads has you covered.
Kerrelyn Sparks is the one who told Sarah romance is like a football game.
If you're worried you have an STI like Chlamydia, please see a doctor. Also, if you have kids, make sure they get the HPV vaccination.
Being a professional friend is a real job.
More about the A in the LGBTQIA+ spectrum.
If you're ever in Chicago, you should go to the dining room of the Chicago Athletic Association, check out the trophies, and play some bocce ball.
Looking to hang out with us in April? We'll be at KissCon and Spring Fling.
Buy buttons and stickers from Kelly and t-shirts from Jordan.
Next up, Waking Up With the Duke by Lorraine Heath, a book that blooded Sarah.
other books we mentioned
S02.19: So You Want to Read a Historical
We’re launching a Special Romance Report here at Fated Mates — a series of interstitials introducing readers to the subgenres of Romance (there are seven!) — we’re talking about why they exist, what they’re trying to do, what to expect from them, what might have readers hesitating, and where to start! This week, we’re starting with Sarah’s favorite subgenre — Historicals! We’re talking about why they’re sexy, progressive, feminist, and very not boring.
Don’t miss a single moment of our 2020 episodes — subscribe on your favorite podcasting platform and like/review the podcast if you’re so inclined!
Next week, we’re talking Kristen Callihan’s Managed, which you may recognize as “SCOTTIE,” which is how Jen refers to it because she loves him so much. We think you’ll love it, too, and if you have time, read the next in the series, Fall, which is one of Sarah’s top 10 romances ever. Read Managed at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, or Kobo.
Show Notes
RWA imploded and it's such a long, complicated story, but this article from Vox and this timeline by Claire Ryan are what will catch you up.
Let's start at the very beginning, a very good place to start: there are seven romance subgenres: historical, contemporary, romantic suspense, paranormal, inspirational, erotic romance, and YA.
When it comes to the grandmother of historicals, don't forget that Jane Austen was writing contemporaries.
Johanna Lindsey died in October, and her family announced it publicly in December. The New York Times obituary was trash, so read the Washington Post or Entertainment Weekly one instead. Check out the Twitter hastag #MyFirstJohanna for people's stories about their first book by Lindsey (including Sarah's), and maybe listen to our episode on Gentle Rogue.
Support Farrah Rochon for an organ in her sister's memory. And come this summer, buy her upcoming book The Boyfriend Project.
In Born a Crime, Trevor Noah wrote about what his mother said about her second husband wanting to put her in a cage: For a long time I wondered why he ever married a woman like my mom in the first place, as she was the opposite of that in every way. If he wanted a woman to bow to him, there were plenty of girls back in Tzaneen being raised solely for that purpose. The way my mother always explained it, the traditional man wants a woman to be subservient, but he never falls in love with subservient women. He’s attracted to independent women. “He’s like an exotic bird collector,” she said. “He only wants a woman who is free because his dream is to put her in a cage.”
Mary Wollstonecraft is all the evidence you need that feminists have been around for a long time.
Jen recommends In the Dream House by Carmen Marie Machado, which is about domestic abuse in a queer relationship. The quote from Jose Estaban Munoz is, "When the historian of queer experience attempts to document a queer past, there is often a gatekeeper representing a straight present."
When talking about The Doctor's Discretion by EE Ottoman, Sarah is very excited about a book called The Butchering Art by medical historian Dr. Lindsey Fitzharris, whose sometimes very gross Instagram is amazing. Doctor James Berry was trans man who lived and worked in London in the mid 1800s.
If you haven't listened to our episode about Beverly Jenkins's Indigo what are you waiting for?
Avon Red was a short-lived series, but then again, so was The Red Shoe Diaries. Sarah recommends On These Silken Sheets by Sabrina Darby from that series.
Whores of Yore is a great blog, and definitely proves Jen's assertion that as soon as someone invented cameras, someone else wanted to get naked in front of it. Dr. Kate Lister, who founded the site, has a book called A Curious History of Sex coming out Feb 2020.
Next time you are in New York, visit The Museum of Sex. Sarah recommends Hallie Rubenhold's The Covent Garden Ladies: Pimp General Jack and the Extraordinary Story of Harris' List (which out of print, but available in audio, and is the book Harlots is based on). Hallie Rubenhold's The Five is not out of print, and also excellent--it is very not a romance, and about the victims of the Ripper killings.
KJ Charles is so ridiculously good. Sarah's favorites are Wanted a Gentleman and Think of England and Jen loves Band Sinister. Nicola Davidson's Surrey Sexual Freedom Society series is fantastic. Alyssa Cole's An Extraordinary Union is amazing. Monica McCarty wrote a historical series that imagines Highlanders as being kind of like Navy SEALs. Sarah talked about one of the books in the series, The Arrow on the Scotland interstitial. Honestly, we talked about so many authors, so just click on any one of the images in the photo gallery below for some of our favorites by those authors.
But stickers and buttons from Kelly, tees and bags from Jordandene, take our reading challenge, and answer our survey.
romances we mentioned
nonfiction we mentioned
S02.18: Born in Ice: The One Where the Hero Smokes
It’s Nora Roberts week at Fated Mates, and we’re reading one of young Jen’s favorite books, Born in Ice, the second in the Born In trilogy, set in Ireland. This week, we’re talking why Nora Roberts is romance royalty, writing writers, the way contemporary romances age, and how weird it is when you read that a hero smokes. Oh, and of course, we’re talking about what the hell is happening in romance right now.
Don’t miss a single moment of our 2020 episodes — subscribe on your favorite podcasting platform and like/review the podcast if you’re so inclined!
In two weeks, we’ve got another of Jen’s pics, Kristen Callihan’s Managed, which you may recognize as “SCOTTIE,” which is how Jen refers to it because she loves him so much. We think you’ll love it, too, and if you have time, read the next in the series, Fall, which is one of Sarah’s top 10 romances ever. Read Managed at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, or Kobo.
Show Notes
Who knows what the RWA situation is when you read this, but as of this podcast, the absolute best source is Claire Ryan's blog post outlining the timeline of events. There was lots of national news coverage, but the "come on girls" comment was on NPR.
The 2019 RITA ceremony was amazing, and one that celebrated the history of romance. In between when we recorded this episode and when it was released, RWA cancelled the 2020 RITA awards. When Sarah said "it was a check the organization couldn't cash" she's alluding to a less well-known section of Martin Luther King's "I Have a Dream" speech.
"La Nora" is how many people refer to Nora Roberts. Sarah mentions some of her earliest category romances, including Gabriel's Angel, an early Nora from the Silhouette Intimate Moments line. She's also read Naked In Death (Jen hasn't), but Jen loved The Brides quartet, which was probably the last Nora Roberts series she read.
Sarah said she feels like readers should at least have read ten percent of an author's backlist for full romance competency. Should the "Ten Percent Rule" be a plank of the official Fated Mates Romance Reader platform? Discuss.
When we talk about Nora Roberts, we used a lot of superhero language: her origin story; her vanquishing of a villanous and duplicitous plaigiarist--twice!; owning her own town; her complete dominance of the bestseller lists. None of it is hyperbole. It's possible she actually is a superhero.
Lots of authors made statements about the RWA situaton. Here is Nora's, and then JR Ward's.
Virginity in romance has come a long way. PS. Virginity is a construct.
Somewhere in the 43 minute mark, Jen says "ope," which is the most Midwestern of sayings. If the twitter account Midwest vs. Everybody doesn't make you laugh so hard you wheeze, you're probably part of the everybody.
Jen isn't the only one who thinks smoking is a short cut for villainy. She thinks The X-Files is to blame. Also, PSA: vaping is really bad for you, too.
Birth control in romance has changed so much, listen to our episode on bodily autonomy for more discussion of this topic.
What does it mean to do something in a fugue state?
Sarah's big thread about why authors shouldn't be afraid of the problematic content in their old romances.
If you're interested in a big interesting book about The Troubles, Jen recommends Say Nothing by Patrick Radden Keefe.
What's a moor anyways?
So you wanted to know what it was like to fly the Concorde?
Buying a car? Sounds like that other Grey. Too bad this Gray was a Confederate apologist. Saying the Civil War was about "a way of life" instead of slavery is a classic Lost Cause myth. As Courtney Milan says, the devil doesn't need your advocacy.
Buy buttons and stickers from Kelly, tshirt and swag from Jordan, particpate in a 2020 reading challengewith Jen and Sarah, and fill out this survey for Eric.
In two weeks, we'll be discussed Managed and Fall by Kristen Callihan. If you have to pick one, make it Managed. As of this episode airing, Jen has tweeted just the word Scottie with a swooning gif at least 11 times.
Our listener call in book was Star King by Susan Grant.
S02.17: Pegging Romance
It’s the start of a new year, Romance is on fire, and we all need a palate cleanser, so we’re doing it right, with the bonus episode that was an item in the Romance for RAICES auction, hosted by Love in Panels. The bidding didn’t go quite the way we expected but we are honestly thrilled, because we were a tiny part of raising $23,000 for refugee services and immigrant families on the border. Please donate early and often to RAICES and The Young Center for Immigrant Children’s Rights.
Please welcome friend of the pod, Sierra Simone, for our very special Pegging Episode (And thank you to the Pegging Collective for your generous donation, and for being wonderful listeners)!
Auspicious beginning, right? Don’t miss a single moment of our 2020 episodes — subscribe on your favorite podcasting platform and like/review the podcast if you’re so inclined!
We’re back next week (WE PROMISE!) with Born in Ice, by none other than the queen herself, Nora Roberts. Read Born in Ice at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo or your local indie.
Show Notes
Jen misquoted a famous scene in Chinatown; it's actually "my sister and my daughter." Yikes.
Pretty sure if you're fancasting us into this clip from Grease about the Pink Ladies, Sierra is Rizzo.
We've talked a lot about Sierra's books on the podcast, but it was on the Small Town Romance interstitial that Sarah joked all of Sierra's books take place in Menage County, Kansas. [14]: https://twitter.com/JenReadsRomance/status/1212092587114467329 The Romance for RAICES auction was the brainchild of Suzanne from Love in Panels and raised TWENTY THREE THOUSAND DOLLARS! You should definitely support her blog and patreon if you can. The crisis on the border is ongoing and getting worse. Please continue to support romance's teams at RAICES and The Young Center.
We were going to rickroll you by talking about Peggy Sue Got Married and pirate romances, but we're nice that way and didn't. FWIW, Jen still thinks the plot of Peggy Sue Got Married is haunting.
Sierra is also, of course, the founder, owner, and operator of [The Simone Scale][14], which does not include teabagging even, but has been, because she loves us, updated to include pegging. The image is on our website in show notes.
Everyone wants the right pegging playlist, and of course there's one on Spotify. What a world! Besides Ariana Grande's Dangerous Woman, we offer up for your consideration Back It Up, Boys by Peaches and Behind the Wheel by Depeche Mode.
Here are some Sierra Simone recommended [toys ][24]and [harnesses][25]. She says of the toys, "The small is VERY gently sized and some men may feel more comfortable with a toy is that isn’t a hyper-realistic reproduction of a cock." [24]: https://www.tantusinc.com/collections/dildos/products/silk-small [25]: https://www.myspare.com/product/joque
Elia Winters is a Fated Mates favorite, and we want to thank her for her help thinking through the implicatons for gender essentialism and cisnormativity in this discussion. Buy her books! Her latest Three For All has pegging.
Sierra mentioned "that law about gas expanding to fill a space" -- well, I phoned Jonathan, a friend who teaches chemistry, and he says that's called entropy or Boyles Law of Kinetic Molecular Theory. Learn more about it here from Professor Dave, a Jonathan-approved chemistry youtube instructor.
Samhain and Ellora's Cave (which was especially messy) were two earlier and now shuttered publishers of erotic romance.
Jen Porter wrote a great twitter thread about erotic romance and character development.
Sarah mentioned "the RITA entry window" and goddamn if that's not a bitter pill to swallow right now. She's sorry.
A little about what it means to be allosexual.
Check out Roan Parrish's short story A Good Old Fashioned Chanukah Pegging, starring Ginger and Christopher from Small Change.
Everyone knows you need a flared base on your butt plugs, or at least anyone who follows Jenny Nordbak knows.
Romance as sex ed is complicated, but Scarlteen is on the job, and Teen Vogue would never steer you wrong.
The Pegging Song that Adriana sent us from Twitter is amazing, and we want to thank @shutupaida for being so gracious about letting us play it during the podcast. Also, be sure to watch Big Mouth on Netflix, because she's writing for it now!
I guess Katee Robert isn't the only one staging elaborate scenes with her Barbie dolls.
The Rogue Anthologies are pretty great and there are quite a few of them.
Jen had to do a major "retcon" on this hero in the Tamsen Parker book in order to read it. It's fine, really.
Special thanks to our special guest Sierra Simone! You can find her on Instagram or Facebook. Read her New Camelot series, the first is American Queen! She also joined us on our MacRieve episode, and we talked about Priest, a book that blooded Sarah.
You can buy a Pegging the Patriarchy button and other Romancelandia buttons at stickers at Jen's shop run by her best friend Kelly, and Sarah's t-shirts and swag from Jordandene.
Next week, we'll be talking about Born in Ice by Nora Roberts! We mean it!
Much thanks to all the members of the Pegging Cabal for their amazing, generous donation, and for asking us to do this episode: E is reading, Jennifer, Stephanie Blackhart, Amanda, Kini, Melinda, Tempest Bonds, Michelle Boule, JS Lenore, Eve Pendle, and Isabel. Give them a follow, or maybe this related account, Is There Pegging? But whatever you do, don't make everyone think that something is wrong with Colin Firth. We hope you enjoyed the episode!
Check out the transcript.
Jen Prokop 0:39
I don't even have words right now but we do have a very special guest
she's been cursed by podcast fairies though.
Sarah MacLean 0:50
It may be like it may be at some sort of flu podcast
flu podcast. Oh, there you go
Sierra Simone 0:56
just as pegging itself takes multiple tries to get Alright, so to the pagan podcast
Jen Prokop 1:05
Well, there you go. I guess y'all know what we're talking about tonight.
Sarah MacLean 1:09
Everyone Sierra Simone is with us today. Hello
Sierra Simone 1:12
everyone you know
Jen Prokop 1:14
Sarah and I are not messing around and sometimes you just need to bring in an expert so on this faded mates Welcome everyone we have a very a very special episode. It's kind of like a Lifetime movie. If you remember those when you were a kid only like way more instructive?
Because
Unknown Speaker 1:32
we got help and support I said, see nothing like those Lifetime movie.
Sarah MacLean 1:40
Like, my sister is my mom.
Jen Prokop 1:50
But okay, sure.
Sarah MacLean 1:54
Okay, so we should talk about so yes. Welcome, everybody to faded mate. I'm Sarah McClain.
Jen Prokop 2:01
I'm generally romance
are we going in
Sarah MacLean 2:07
you and then if we have to introduce our
Unknown Speaker 2:08
guest, I mean, right.
Sarah MacLean 2:11
And then we are here today with Sarah Simone who everyone remembers from our McRib episode. Sarah, have you only been here for one episode?
Jen Prokop 2:19
No.
Sierra Simone 2:21
I think it's just been one. Yeah, I mean, I feel like I'm present.
Jen Prokop 2:26
We have to do everyone several.
We've recorded with her four times, but she's gonna only be on twice
Sierra Simone 2:36
but you only get to hear okay, but
Sarah MacLean 2:38
here's the deal. So this is well and we also we have a third one even we have a third lined up already. We already know you're coming back. Yo, it's like, Saturday Night Live where people get t shirts. People get gifts when they hit milestones like maybe when you hit five will send you like a
amazing
Sierra Simone 2:58
amazing
Sarah MacLean 3:06
Kansas.
Sierra Simone 3:08
It really is. I mean, I'm the mayor of Minaj. County, Kansas.
I don't know, but I'm the mayor of it.
Well, thank you for having me on. I'm really excited to be here. We're so happy to have you and
Sarah MacLean 3:25
so let's give a little background on where how this started. We so Suzanne over at Levin panels, who is fabulous, and was looking around in 2019 at the world and going like what the fuck is happening is that none of us could could really stop saying that, and I was paralyzed, but, but Suzanne decided that she was gonna put her good work into mobilizing romance to into a auction to benefit nonprofit organizations on the southern border of the United States working with displaced families, children who have been displaced or taken from their parents and other people who
Jen Prokop 4:15
are really going through it
Sarah MacLean 4:17
down there. And romance really delivered in a huge way. The auction was massive, I think bigger than Suzanne could have imagined. Oh, I think it raised like 15 or 20 grand It was a lot. Yeah, you guys did awesome. So thank you to everyone who donated time money. product to that. We Jen and I were really really excited to be able to donate an episode of fate of mates, by which we meant like you pick the topic.
Like, we'd like you to talk about the bridgeton series
episode on princesses.
Jen Prokop 5:04
Women with really nice shoes.
Sarah MacLean 5:09
You Joker's a group of you got together and you raise a shit ton of money. Thank you so, so much. And you called yourself the pegging cabal. We have your name, we're going to name you at the end of this episode with pride. And you won the auction and you asked us to do an episode on pegging. And after sort of a couple of non starter ideas like what if we do a whole episode of characters named Margaret or
Sierra Simone 5:42
totally forgot we're
Jen Prokop 5:43
gonna do that. I was like, we're gonna rickroll them.
Sarah MacLean 5:49
Pirate romance.
We decided to really get serious get down to business, so to speak, and we called in the dirtiest person we know
Sierra Simone 6:00
The owner, thank you operator
Sarah MacLean 6:01
and developer of the Simone scale tm.
Simone, like pegging on the small scale is like, slightly to the north of Darcy looking at.
Jen Prokop 6:17
Like, making a cup of tea with two tea bags. That's about how sexy it is in your world. Like, we're gonna need help.
Sierra Simone 6:25
I mean, also actual teabagging is on, but like,
Jen Prokop 6:31
but yes, like, we're
Sierra Simone 6:32
talking like real, real mild stuff for pegging. So I was like, yeah, hell yes, I'm here. Yeah. What
Unknown Speaker 6:38
do you mean you need an expert? What's wrong,
Jen Prokop 6:42
guys? Important point, Sarah tweet. I think I've done more research episodes I ever had for like, my advice.
Sarah MacLean 6:52
was like, I'm getting it together.
Sierra Simone 6:55
That wasn't real good week. Like I feel like our text thread that week was probably like top 10 texts. threads of all time. Okay.
Yeah, we found that playlist, the music playlist, which we will
Sarah MacLean 7:09
course link in show notes and also the peaches song is is is going to play over the course of this episode because
Jen Prokop 7:33
Is this the woman the woman on Twitter who has the pegging? Like new jingle you guys we found some amazing things we're gonna
Sarah MacLean 7:42
get to her she's amazing cuz she's given us permission to play the whole thing. But no, there's there's a peachy song that is like, frankly like meaning.
It also includes meatloaf I would do anything for love.
Jen Prokop 8:02
But I won't do that.
Sarah MacLean 8:15
There is like a three part dissertation on on the internet about Ariana Grande a having
Sierra Simone 8:23
to pegging Dangerous Woman don't know how
Unknown Speaker 8:29
to spend the money.
Unknown Speaker 8:33
completely focused.
Sierra Simone 8:36
It is the classic, dangerous woman.
Jen Prokop 8:41
I think my favorite song on that playlist though, is
Sarah MacLean 8:53
that Eric pops in and production. There's gonna be a lot of great music in this episode. We'll put it all in show notes.
Jen Prokop 9:00
I think also a lot of show notes are going to be like Jen was unable to Google that good luck.
Sarah MacLean 9:07
Jen does show notes at work.
Jen Prokop 9:10
We suggest the search terms x y&z been able to execute that search and keep my job.
See the gray zone is now radioactive.
Sierra Simone 9:27
Well the great thing about Sarah Nice job is that like, if we didn't do this research on our computers, really we'd be letting our job down. So solemn duty Yeah, to investigate every corner of pegging.
Yeah, that's what she said.
Sarah MacLean 9:45
There's no corners in pegging.
Sierra Simone 9:49
I've learned that. That's rule number
one. Corner.
Jen Prokop 9:56
No corners. It's real soft. Round. Yes.
Unknown Speaker 10:05
All right.
Jen Prokop 10:06
Okay, so real serious now, Sarah, I think we'd like Sierra to maybe define pegging for us for
Sarah MacLean 10:13
those of you who don't know, welcome to fate of me. Welcome to this episode.
Okay, good welcome. If this is your first faded mates episode, welcome to the deep end of the pool.
If you combine a series someones newsletter, Twitter account, Facebook, or
Unknown Speaker 10:45
Welcome
Jen Prokop 10:48
Welcome to the kiddie pool.
Unknown Speaker 10:52
perspective, time is a flat circle
Unknown Speaker 10:59
All right.
Jen Prokop 11:00
Sierra, tell us about what pegging is, that's your job. That's why we brought you do all the heavy lifting.
Sierra Simone 11:07
So, um, so this is something that when we were kind of formulating how we were going to talk about pegging in the episode, you know, we did do a little bit of discussion. So sort of the traditional definition of pegging has been penetrative sex, where the penetrating object is actually a toy like a strap on, and the toy is usually worn. And the receptive partner is a man and the active partner, the penetrating partner is a woman and that is, I would say the majority of the pegging you come across in romance, which is a woman wearing a strap on penetrating a man easily. But while we were talking, I think, Jen Was it you who talked to Ilia winters a little bit, I bow Yeah, kind of making sure that there is some inclusivity The definition and that, you know, acknowledging that there can be some biological essentialism and the way that we sort of talk about what pegging is and isn't, and making sure that you know, it's kind of for everyone.
Jen Prokop 12:14
I just want to say like, huge shout out to Elio, who like, was really gracious about taking our questions because we want it I mean, obviously, we're having a lot of fun with this episode, but we don't want to be offensive either. And, you know, it's like kind of this always this question now about gender essential ism. You know, obviously, there are women who do have penises, right? If she's using her own anatomy, is it? Is it pegging? Or is it just like fucking and really, one of the things that Ellie and I ended up talking about was the idea that like people, if, if, if people kind of self identify that the activity they're doing is pegging like than it is, and it's not really like are you know, people get to decide how to like, a sheet put it like deviate from sis normativity in whatever way they Want to. So although I think in the episode work in a really kind of stick to that standard definition, we do want to just sort of, like throw out there that like that. That's not the only way that like pegging works. It's sort of maybe a most common one at this point. But, you know, we fully anticipate that, like, these things are going to just like everything. You know, there's not like really, highly defined borders around it. Like this is an activity that like all people can enjoy in whatever way they want to about that. Yeah,
Sierra Simone 13:28
yes. I love that. And I think that I think that pegging and I hope this is the case that in romance pegging is going to start to expand as it's sort of drifted into the popular consciousness, the way we see it represented and romance will start to expand and kind of breathe into the corners of the room. You know, I kind of think of that, like, what's that science law about how gas will always fill the volume of the container and nice and I feel like I do. like this and romance and inclusivity they do do that. Like once people start bringing awareness of it into the conversation, then you do start to see these stories and narratives pop up that really expand and play with, like, what are the limits of what this can do. And I hope that's the case for pegging. Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 14:18
I think this is really an interesting question, because I think, I think that when we talk about pegging, we're talking about really flipping the script on what sex has traditionally like, is traditionally in like old school, you know, sis hat. romances were like, the penetrative experience is the masculine experience. And I think that that that the idea of normalization of pegging and this these kind of questions about like, how do we rewrite the script on sex so that there is more parity and experiences kind of more We're balanced across or maybe not even balanced, but it's about pleasure. It's about your own desire and your consent within a relationship. And to Missy to write the idea that you're sharing something that maybe is like a stretch for you or like a writer or something you're kind of interested or curious about together and that is also a way that people's relationships develop. And yes is a gift from erotica and from erotic romance. I mean, this has I think, part of the reason why pegging has become more a part of romance and truthfully, when we got this sort of call for this being the fate of mates episode that people wanted, we part of the reason why we felt like we needed an expert to come in and talk was because we wanted somebody who was really deeply connected to erotic romance, who writes erotic romance who understands
the world
of writing for erotic romance readers and who, unlike and somebody who is in in that world right now because it isn't it's a new This is a whole new world opening up from erotic romance I think so much about that really the conversation that we've had with adrionna we had with audrianna Herrera when she was here about like, romance is constantly now it feels like romance of 2019 2020 is pushing the walls down and sort of again like gas right expanding? Yes, you further space.
Sierra Simone 16:34
Well, and I think that that's such an astute observation that because it to me, and I'm not nearly the romance historian that you guys are but when I encountered a lot of sort of older pegging, like I would say around like 2004 to 2007 ish in like Sam handbooks and a Laura's cave books.
Jen Prokop 16:52
Um, it definitely happened
Sierra Simone 16:55
within a very specific BDSM sphere. There was a Definitely like a very certain paradigm that could allow for a man to be penetrated by a woman. And now I think that's completely not the case. And one of the reasons why is that I think it's such a valuable tool or method to explore what power and gender mean inside of a relationship, that it actually connects to a lot of conversations that we're having in 2019. And, you know, in the last few years, and so this idea that like it can move out from just being purely like a symbol of, I mean, almost dominance, like femme Dom culture, to being something that even like limitedly kinky people or not kinky people at all can experience and it can be used on the page as a as a seen as a chessboard for navigating some other bigger, deeper theme.
Jen Prokop 17:56
One of the things I think might be really interesting before we'd like to Talk about specific, like examples is one of the things I like. And I know Sarah, you and I've been like noodling around when we like sort of tried this. The first time is, when people talk about erotic romance, they often talk about, like how sex has to be a really integral part of the plot. Hmm. And one of the things and I and I think that's true, right, like they're the relationship gets, like sort of shown through like, the sexual evolution of their emotional relationship is like really shown through the evolution of their sexual relationship. Right, right. I think one of the other things that I'm I'm really moving towards is the idea that I'm really good. erotic romance, though is also about character development. Yeah. And so you get people really exploring who they are, as they explore, like, their sexual identity, whether and that happens, like with a partner or partners, right, yeah. And I think that that's something that It's really funny because for like a long time, I've kind of really struggled with that first definition of erotic romance like it felt right, but somehow not entirely right. And when I think about it instead is someone really saying, like, I want to explore something new with you. I am learning something new about myself through what we're doing together. I find that to be a really like, electrifying and exciting way of thinking about erotic romance. And I think it's also when I think about the best erotic romance, it's the ones that do that. And I think that that's why like pegging could then be like a really interesting kind of model for this because often it is like, it's not where a book starts, right. It's something that's going to happen later. And, and I think so I just think that's like a really interesting way of thinking about it that like, I don't know, it really makes sense to me. It's like something I feel like I really enjoy and I think Maybe I'll look it up Jennifer Porter on Twitter was maybe one of the people who first like got me thinking in this way and I will definitely try and dig up that thread because I, I really, it was like one of those things where I read it and I was like that I love that idea a lot.
Sarah MacLean 20:15
Well, and I think that that's such an important piece of the puzzle for erotic romance. Like I my biggest one of my biggest frustrations with the way we talk about romance novels in the world is that for so long, I mean, when I started writing Romance A decade ago, which feels like an eternity ago, and like I started reading romance before ebooks existed, like that's, that's kind of the frame of reference that we're talking about here. Right. So like, the most erotic romance at the time that was readily available that you could go to your local library and pick up was someone like Laura Lee right, who was writing a very specific kind of again, like sis heteronormative erotic romance that was not including these kind of these kind of kinks that now no longer feel as kinky, right? But so an interestingly and her and her heroes were completely impenetrable. That's what she said in both
Sierra Simone 21:25
episode we one done
Sarah MacLean 21:30
right, I'm never gonna be able to call a hero.
Jen Prokop 21:36
They all need to just understand that they're all penetrable. It's a better world that way.
Sarah MacLean 21:43
But my point being that
for a long time written my, when I started, there was this sort of sense that we didn't talk about the sex parts of the book like we as writers, as an industry. Kind of glossed over that for I think lots of reasons. But certainly the one of the damage, one of the most damaging parts of that silence about the sex parts was that we never really nailed down a solid definition of what it means to be erotic romance like Yeah, and I think we talked about this a little bit during the mcgroove episode where like, I there's still a question I still see people right now there's the Rita not the Rita entry. window is open, and people are like, well, if I had five sex scenes in my book, is that a contemporary is that erotic and it's like, well,
Jen Prokop 22:43
that's not the that shouldn't be. The crazy number is not that the number is not what's defined,
Sarah MacLean 22:50
but I think we're not look, romance is having a lot of very important conversations right now that need to be had but this is one that also needs to be had in service of This part of the genre, right? Because we should be able to talk about what the value of the erotic romance is. And I think you're right that it is about character. Evolution is through action in this particular way.
Sierra Simone 23:15
I love that idea of evolution through action. Like I think that's such an incredible, just sort of pithy tagline for it. And I want to acknowledge that, you know, we're the sphere in which we're talking about erotic romance is largely geared towards and representing Allah sexuals. And so just with that caveat, I do think that for Allah sexual people, meaning people who are just non Ace, or you know, naturally sexual beings, that sexual identity actually ties into some really super elemental parts of our identities that I think are hard to access and other ways. So like it can be profoundly vulnerable making it can be profoundly therapeutic. Or profoundly traumatizing or, you know, breaking you open to have powerful transformative sex. And so if you have an erotic romance where the It doesn't matter how many sex scenes you have, necessarily, but the sex scene itself is doing work by using sex as a as a gateway into this identity arc that the characters undergoing, I think that that is what makes a compelling erotic romance. And then I think the, a lot of that journey usually is coupled with sort of, I was raised or just sort of the overall culture created these ideas about sexuality inside of me. And so like some of that identity is usually kind of coming into your own and letting go of the harmful paradigms that society has given you. And I think with pegging in particular, that can have a lot to do with like, what is masculinity? Like? What is the matter masculine role in sex. And and I think we can acknowledge probably that there are there are some strains of homophobia right within talking about pegging and how men might feel about it.
Jen Prokop 25:15
If I could just like shout out like literally today, Rome parish dropped a little book in main bite, called a good old affection Hanukkah pegging. And it is a if you read small change, it's ginger and Christopher so these are like characters you kind of already know. But one of the things I really liked about this little and I mean, it's pretty short. I read it in a couple minutes is it starts off with Christopher talking to his friend, because he is like curious it his friend is gay and he's curious about like, Ginger has like wants to try pegging. Christopher is like I think I want to try it but he talks to his friend hearse Question is sort of like, does it hurt? Like, does it hurt to have something up your ass? Right? And the friend is kinda like Jude is like blinking, right? And, and he's like, and they and he's really interesting because he's, he'd like, go, it's I thought it was really great. Like, he's like, I need to go to a friend first who's experienced this to like, talk about, like, my questions and my fears. And you know, it's like, really funny because, like, one of the things he says is like, like, What's the situation? And I was like, You know what, I think that makes it I loved it. Like, I felt like, oh, like, that really is getting out. Like what I think a lot of people would have like, questions about the mechanics of it, and I just thought it anyway, it's like a terrific story. And it's really short and we'll link to it in show notes. But you know, that that whole idea of like him, you know, and and you can tell Jude his friend is like, you know, it doesn't make you gay and he's like, I I'm not trying to say that, like, I really am like, Is it going to hurt like, what do I do to prepare? How do I get ready?
Unknown Speaker 27:00
Right. You know,
Sarah MacLean 27:02
I think that's a really it brings up a whole separate batch of questions about romance in general and how well or not well, it prepares readers for sex. Yeah, right. I mean, I, I think, because I think a lot about the fact like, I think about anal and I think about how I had no idea like romance did not prepare me in any way to like, understand how anal works. Right, right. Oh, yeah. Right. So like, I think so i think that that kind of conversation in romance is really fresh and interesting and should happen more on the page. And, again, it's the place where erotic romance can be doing some really interesting and I think important work. Yeah, you know, the last time we this is the second time we've recorded this episode, because we had a little bit of a problem the first time and that day, I had just been to have an extra While I was sitting there, I was not discussing this episode with the X ray tech surprisingly. But the X ray tech while I was there was saying, Oh, we've had a really interesting day today because you know, your story is definitely the most boring story and somebody else would come in was younger a young man and he had a tube of mascara.
Sierra Simone 28:28
Oh no loss Oh, no,
Unknown Speaker 28:30
no, no
Unknown Speaker 28:31
No learn base everybody know that. Here's the thing, right? Like,
Sarah MacLean 28:36
that's a thing where like, okay, there's this is there's a lot going on, like his, the X ray text response was his mom was real pissed.
And
I can't imagine like I was like, well, it's probably worse for him. And truthfully, like this entire experience is going to be a terrible experience between him and his mom if they can't figure out a way to talk about it. But the reality is like who's was having how are we having these conversations? Like is it romances job to teach us? Like? There's some interesting questions here, right? Like, you know, it is not romance this job to teach us. But like, we don't want porn teaching us. So where do we learn? So I guess in this I mean, this is sort of a much bigger kind of academic and like parenting and you know, a traditional question, but
these
I'm really happy to hear about that conversation in Ron's book because
Jen Prokop 29:32
Yeah, right, exactly. Because I do think it's tricky. Like, I agree with you that this is not exactly it's not romances job to teach. But at the same time, I think it probably behooves at least most writers to know that many people are learning about sex through romance. Yeah. And like, that's like a real tricky thing. I will say I will put a link in show notes to a website that I just think is actually terrific. for teaching about sex, it's called Scarlett teen. And it is literally called, like sex ed for the real world. And it's really aimed at teenagers and like emerging adults, right, like young people, but I, I, I think anybody would benefit like, everything's really straightforward. It's pretty non judgmental. I think it does a pretty good job about addressing like, gender identity. It's not like gender essential, you know what I mean? It's not just like, this is what women are. And I so I do think that like, but I tell a lot of people about Scarlett teen and they're like, I've never heard of that before. And I don't know if I'm just lucky because I work in a school and I know the folks who teach sex ed, but there are resources out there that I think you know, if you're too embarrassed to talk to your kids about sex, like I will say, I know that it's like really hard, but I do think it's like a really important part of our job as parents sprite because
Otherwise you're in the ER
Unknown Speaker 31:03
Yeah.
Sierra Simone 31:04
Lost your $13 tube of mascara.
Jen Prokop 31:10
I mean, who knows how much of the bill is for that?
Sarah MacLean 31:14
Oh god no, but not in you know i'm i'm thrilled that there are resources like this but like also just PSA moms and dads out there listening like, you know talk to your kids about all kinds of sex. Oh yeah things that they might be getting into it's going to be horrifying but enjoy embarrassing them
Sierra Simone 31:36
I think there is a there is a corner of fiction that does sometimes get a little bit more into these things and that's fanfiction because I know I have read fanfiction that is a little bit more detail oriented because it's you know, maybe it's written by a young person who like actually googled how to peg the I know I've read some fanfiction that was really illuminating and taught me some things. And I think I actually think in 2019 there's actually a lot of permeability between fan fiction and romance right now. Sure, I think I think a lot of fan fiction readers have grown up to be romance readers because they've been trained by slash fig by you know, reading these alternate universes with their favorite characters falling in love. And so they just sort of naturally graduated into romance, but they expect the same diversity and the same sex positivity that they found in fanfiction, which is really like it's a breath of fresh air, I think.
Jen Prokop 32:40
Yeah, I think that's awesome. I guess I would just like one more thing I would like to turn to in terms of like, cuz I guess my, my, of the three of us, my child is the oldest so I've actually done some of this work. Like I mean, we all you should all you know, you'd be talking to your younger kids about all sorts of things about their rights to their body and all that kind of stuff, right? But, and I can put up like lots of like links and show notes about like, how to talk to your kids about sex and, but like one of the things to like, for me that's really worked and I tell people this is that I like very much like when I sit my son down and we're like talking about this stuff, like just him, like I say to him, I'm like, I get that you're embarrassed, and you don't have to say anything, just like listen to me. And then I like really make it clear. Like, I feel like this is part of my job as your parent like, I'm just doing my job right now. I'm not here to embarrass you. I'm not here to like horrify you I but this is stuff that's like really important to me, that you are that you know about consent that you are being careful that you are like watching out for your friends that you know these like warning signs of like when someone might be in a dangerous situation. right and i think that you know, it's it's something that I think of is like a real responsibilities. Like, you're not going to send your kid off to college without them knowing how to like, do their own laundry. So make sure they know how to like buy condoms, and, you know, like talk about sex. And the thing that I have told my son is over and over again is like, if you can't talk to your partner or like about what you want to do, if you can't say, like, this is what I want to try, this is what I want to do, then you probably shouldn't be doing it. Yeah, right like that. That to me is like, just like the baseline. Like you have to be able to talk to your partner. It's something you're doing together. And that to me, I think feels like you don't have to really get too into the weeds about that is but it's like, if you can't even talk about what you want to do, then maybe you're not ready to actually try doing it.
Sierra Simone 34:44
You know, I think that that actually ties really well into pegging because I think pegging is one of the acts that requires a huge amount of communication. Because if you are penetrating someone with a toy like you yourself are not having a whole lot of Like biofeedback. So what is happening inside their body? And so there's just there's no way to do it without actively communicating as you go along, like you communicate before, like, you know, just basic things like what's the weather today? Like? Is it good about weather? Is it bad weather? Like? It's like a tornado warning then like, we're not going in, but, but then it's like a constant process of communicating throughout and then after, as well to say, like, how did that feel? Was that okay? And there's just, I mean, I don't think I've ever read a pegging scene where there hasn't been some degree of communication, because I think that if you wrote something like that, it would actually be really uncomfortable like emotionally to read because it's such a, it's it just requires that in this it necessitates it.
Jen Prokop 35:56
So do we want to talk about some actual books?
Sarah MacLean 35:59
Well, actually, I want to talk About my book, if if I can go first. Um, so I was thinking I'm, I'm just really, I'm really drawn to what you both are saying about, you know, one being mature enough to be able to ask for what you want. And with, you know, with purpose and with an understanding of your own your own ability to want and, and behave in a certain way but also in this sort of sense that like trust that I'm really interested in the trust that is implicit in asking for in broaching the topic with your partner. Yeah. Because it feels like once you're actually like, in the sheets, like
you've, you've come over the
most impressive hurdle, which is like asking for it right, which is hard. Right? All right. This feels dirty, by the way. Like I feel like every word coming out of my mouth
Jen Prokop 37:00
We're gonna get we're giving the people, Sarah.
Unknown Speaker 37:04
I know.
Sarah MacLean 37:05
So
anyway,
I so anyway, my point is that I think this this issue of trust in conversation with your partner the ability to say, I want this thing I want this thing that's kinky or not kinky or whatever in our relationship and frankly, I mean sexual or otherwise, is a massive hurdle for a relationship, especially in the beginning. And I mean, especially when it comes to sex like, which is awkward and weird and funny and stupid and all those things all right, it's never as perfect as it's certainly not the beginning ever as perfect as it is to pick a page. And so my pick for this is aelia winters. I mean, it feels like she keeps coming back, but winters winters is tied score, which is the second book in her slices of pie series, which follows. It's basically an erotic series focused and centered around gaming company. But in this particular you don't have to
the heroine of this book is
the HR person at this gaming company. And here is a baker.
And we all know I love the baker.
And basically like she goes in to the bakery every morning, I really love the way this flips the script. There are a lot there are a lot of romances where like the businessman hero gets his coffee every day from right like everything about this book kind of turns these, like classic tropes on their head. But he goes into she goes into his bakery every day and she buys coffee every day and they sort of make eyes at each other and they were kind of into each other and then like suddenly they're you know, they're into each other and She is a it's a little BDSM she is in them in, she likes scenes, she likes to be a DOM. And and he has a submissive streak that he knows he has but hasn't like thoroughly explored. And I really like as you all know, like I really like this dynamic with the with the heroine as DOM. So this I knew going in like I picked up this book because I knew going in this was going to scratch an itch for me that you don't see very much but in this particular case, um she's also like she knows she's, there's nothing about this that feels prescribed in the way that erotic romance can often produce a DOM and a submissive where it's like everyone knows their own rules. Everyone knows like exactly how everything goes Dom's know everything is perfect in every way. That's just not how this goes and it lovely And there's this
moment about
halfway through the book and I think about the fact I think it was Eugen who said, like pegging doesn't happen on page one like it. Yeah, it's an act that comes out later.
Jen Prokop 40:12
Meanwhile, I said that and I'm an ally when I talk about mine, but it's gonna be okay. That's like exception that proves the rule. Exactly.
Unknown Speaker 40:20
So
Sarah MacLean 40:20
there's, they go into the two of them together, go into a sex, like a sex shop. And the woman behind the counter is like, very friendly. And she's like, welcome. And he turns to the hero turns to the heroine and says, What did you have in mind and I sort of, it feels it all feels very light. There's this new sex shop in our neighborhood that like where there's nothing like the windows are all like open to the street and like it feels like a revelation to go in there. It doesn't feel secret or sword in any way. And I like that about this representation on the in the book. That's sort of an aside. And she says, The heroine says, I thought,
um,
maybe a harness.
Like ellipses in the sentence like it's clear that she feels we're in his POV right so we can't see when we can't see what she's thinking. But like it's so clear that she's like, I know what I want but I feel weird saying it to you like I don't I'm not sure how this is going to go I'm not sure that you'll have me after this like I'm not sure we'll be in the same place anymore. I could be fucking up
and then he says
that sounds fun is it's like to try and then he touches her but just like with one finger like he just like runs a finger down her spine. And she says Yeah, I think so if your game and he says and then he bends down is like super sexy and is like, you want to peg me, Miss Parker and like it's This moment where you're like they're having this like hot, consensual moment, and it's filled with like her. And it begins with her uncertainty with like, yeah, her not being like the perfect DOM and not being able to read like, being in a place that's very authentic and real. It felt like to me. Yeah, that's awesome. Anyway, the rest of the pegging scene is great. All this is to say, like, the rest of the book is fabulous. The pegging scene is great. It's super hot. ilias really, incredibly skilled at this. And, you know, you've heard us talk about early on the podcast before, so I don't have to oversell but I wanted to really, you all said that in it. I just I found that moments. So real. So great. Great.
Jen Prokop 42:48
Yeah. Just a quick shout out. Her latest book three for all also has a pegging scene.
Sierra Simone 42:55
Oh,
Sarah MacLean 42:56
I also think I'm not gonna a good time to break are a person on Twitter who
peg someone in a different way through song?
Jen Prokop 43:15
It's honestly I feel like the most brilliant thing I've ever heard at
least at times when you are the one who like reached out, and we're like hello
Sarah MacLean 43:29
King delighted by it. Her name is Aida. And she is awesome. She's hilariously funny her Twitter handle is shut up Aida. And actually just recently she announced that she has a new job she's joined the writers room at Big Mouth the the the animated show on Netflix that is about teenagers going through puberty, which I think is like the most I'm wild about this show. It's awkward and weird and it's exactly the right representation of what puberty feels. Like, so congratulations to Ada for this but
more importantly, she is the creator
of and we will post this tweet and we will put the music in right now.
Unknown Speaker 44:19
Real quick. No, it's not gay bro. I'm just having fun, bro. I just wanna stick. But bro, I'm being truthful and make yourself visible and let me just imagine a
Unknown Speaker 44:29
bag. I got a strap.
Unknown Speaker 44:30
I gotta press pay for your ass. Hey, I've got a question to ask.
Unknown Speaker 44:35
Do you get your booty in
Unknown Speaker 44:36
the air? Maybe we could do each other's hands stop being homophobic and benya as over it's not like your homies are here. And to be clear, I know you would love it.
Unknown Speaker 44:49
You got a big
Sarah MacLean 45:03
The tweet reads unnormalized pegging at all costs
fucking fabulous rap.
And with that she had that she wrote in like a heartbeat. And my favorite line of it is, uh, I got a strap. I got a fresh peg for your ass. I got a question to ask. Do you see with your booty in the air? Maybe when we're finished, we can do each other's hair.
Jen Prokop 45:36
Anyway, let's feel blessed everybody. It's great.
Sarah MacLean 45:38
You guys my favorite song. My favorite song.
Jen Prokop 45:42
It's amazing. It really is.
Sarah MacLean 45:44
What's important here is that we all get to the point where we've asked, and that's right. enthusiastic verbal vocal consent.
Jen Prokop 45:52
There you go.
Why don't you go next, Sarah?
Sierra Simone 45:57
Yes. Okay. I My book this time is learned my lesson by Katie Roberts. And this is part of her wicked villains series. Which, if you're not on Instagram obsessively following her staging her sex scenes with Barbie dolls, then you should be. But this series follows different Disney villains and sort of kind of alternate universe. They're all in the same city, kind of squaring off against each other. And learn my lesson is about Hades, Hercules and Meg. And it kind of starts out with so Hades owns a kink club. And in in owning this kink club, he's kind of got control over the entire city. His King club is the only neutral ground in this city. And he has information on everyone and Megan's really his His right hand person like she's his submissive, but she's also a switch in the club. And she manages the day to day running of the club like she is as much the mistress of it as he is the master. But at the beginning of the book, they kind of start out in this sort of marriage and trouble place. So they've been together for you know, long time, like 10 years. And something shifted in Hades, right? And like Megan's really feeling like something's changed between them. And so the book opens there at a restaurant and it's supposed to be kind of like a nice dinner date, but it's not going that well. And then this waiter walks in, and he's just like six foot five of like, golden puppy muscle boy. And Hades is like, I want you to seduce him. And you find out later that like Hades has sort of like revenge reasons for wanting this thing to happen. But what happens between Meg and Hercules ends up being Super genuine. And then Hades and Hercules end up having this really genuine connection. And Hayes is definitely like the slither in hero who's anti hero who's kind of bent on revenge who's like, I love zero things. And then by the end of the book, he's like, Damn, and I love two things I'm
Unknown Speaker 48:16
supposed to.
Jen Prokop 48:23
Perfect. So great.
Sierra Simone 48:26
There's a really beautiful pegging scene that were made pigs Hercules while he is, is getting oral sex to Hades.
And what I love
about it is it's everything that I want out of the pegging scene, right, like there's sort of this flip of gender and who's the passive partner and all this stuff. But I also really love I don't want to say how casual It is like, because there is consent involved and there is like, planning and emotional preparation, but it's just a given the Hercules' would be open to this kind of thing. And so it really, it almost makes the default as it should be, which is that there's no stigma attached. You know, in this world that Katie is created, there is no stigma to what we want and what we need to do for ourselves in bed. And so it happens and it's this really like, coalescing scene between the three of them, like it's really the scene where you begin to see like what they could be as a threesome. And not just as an antihero, a puppet and his, you know, like, jaded submissive. And I love the whole book, and I love all the books in the series and she has more books in the series coming out. I think the next one is going to be hook and Tinkerbell. So if you're into that kind of thing, I think that's coming in late, like late winter, like early 2020.
Unknown Speaker 49:56
There you go. Keeping
Unknown Speaker 49:59
Yeah. Um,
Jen Prokop 50:00
that's really interesting because I think that it sounds like we have all found like really different like pegging examples I am going to talk about, and I'm going to preface this by saying it was written right after the election in 2016. And it has a plot that I think, like the most ridiculous part of the plot. The hardest thing to believe is not the pegging on the first date. That is easy to believe it's that this is a love story between a democrat and a Republican. Which I know and I hate myself for recommending it but I feel like I love it so much but I feel like four years ago even it kind of felt like this was a plot that could happen. He really he at the end the republican completely gives it up he like he
quits the party he understand is wrong, but Still, like I don't even know he
Sarah MacLean 51:02
legit pegs the patriarchy is what you're saying.
Jen Prokop 51:07
Yeah, it's
called life, liberty and worship by Tamsin Parker. And it was in the first rogue anthology. So it's called broke desire. And I'm going to guess that if Tamsin was writing this right now, she would write it about like, a Democrat and then like, I thought about voting for Bernie for five minutes. But didn't actually do it like, right anyway.
I voted for George, local. You know, like, when I was eight, in my local school board election, there was only one republican running. So I had
three or four years like a lot of changes what I'm trying to tell you anyway, so here's it's a great, it's a great book if we can just like read Gone away. That one part of it. So, Paige is goes every like, you know, however often to like a spinning class and the guy in front of her, she like thinks he's really cute but she notices that he wears these sort of like political t shirts and she just and then he like gets all sweaty and takes them off and she's like, Oh, I hate this guy. And but he of course it turns out is just like one of those like, sad boys who doesn't want to talk to anybody. And so he finally like sort of, you know, get up the gumption to like ask her out. But unfortunately for him he does it after she sort of overhears like another guy like being real Brody and saying something stupid and and she is just like, fine. I'll go out with you like, come to my come to like this address at 10 o'clock. And in the meantime, she actually is sort of figured out That he writes policy papers for you know, like some sort of competing, whatever wonky thing and she like does respect the way he thinks like even though she doesn't quite agree with his politics because at one time and the school board election he voted Republican. She She liked it so he like shows up and she's basically like, he's like, What's your name? And she's like, you can find out after I have my way with you and basically like, brandishes this her harness, I mean, like, and he it's really amazing. She basically thinks she's gonna like, scare him away. And it's like, the greatest line in this book is he's like,
I've never done this book.
She's, you know, she's like, and she's like, what, fuck the Democrat.
But the thing is, is that she is she takes the response. ability of like penetrating him, like of pegging him really seriously, right. So even though she's, like, furious at him, and really does almost view this as like an act of revenge in some ways for what she thinks he stands for, she is still so careful with him. And she is and he and she's really surprised that he goes for it. She's like, wait, I thought you'd essentially like run, you know, run away. And they, she, like fucks up and basically kicks him out the door. You know, it ends up being like a really like for his show. You know, sometimes I'm just really amazed at what a great author can do with a short amount of time, right. And so, in this case, one of the things I think we really get is, you know, we talked about like, trust a lot right so far and like the other books that you guys have talked about, but pegging is also about power. And I think that's something that page really knows but it Not a power that she takes lightly and she doesn't like cross her like emotional feelings of anger disappointed with him and his kind of what she thinks he stands for, with like the, the very careful like power kind of and responsibility she she has with him in the bedroom. So I think it's like a really interesting one because because there isn't that emotional, or like trust there. It really is like sort of more of a of an act where she's like, I, this is what I want to do. And he's like, yeah, I kind of want you to do it too. But I think it's really hot. I think it's real sexy. And I think it's ultimately she is able after the physical act of begging him to sort of emotionally when they sort of eventually do kind of come clean. Like really say to him like I could never be with someone who believes the things that you believe and he has really has to face like, okay, the republican party I grew up in when I voted in the school board election. No like, right?
It's not
like what I stand for either, right? I mean, he's pro choice and he and he really has to sort of face like, Oh, I this this has changed and and you're right. And so he basically agrees to do the right thing and come over to the side of rightness and goodness and pegging.
Sierra Simone 56:30
We have pegging nice, you know, I really love but that's
I really love that this is your choice because I feel like it more maybe more than Sarah and I as pics represents, like where pegging can go in romance, like outside of like latex and safe words and you know, like, really intentional power structures that are built ahead of time. Like I think that it can represent like that picking can end up being kind of like how anal play is now where it used to be really restricted where you would find anything about the butt. And now, I mean, I sometimes I'm even kind of surprised when it doesn't come up in some contemporary romances as at least like a thing that someone's thinking about. Right? And so I hope that I mean, I really hope that like this is kind of a good bellwether of like, where we can go with it. We can use it as a metaphor as shorthand, but we can also use it as like, spontaneous you know, first aid sex. Yeah.
Love that. I'd be a hell of a first date.
Unknown Speaker 57:39
very memorable.
Sarah MacLean 57:46
That would be a fun thing to try on Tinder. Like just
Unknown Speaker 57:49
we like
Sarah MacLean 57:51
surely swipe right if I will, if I can pay you on the first day.
Jen Prokop 57:57
Yeah, I mean, it would sell you lucked out. Hello. Man, you would lose a lot of Yeah, stinkers.
Sierra Simone 58:04
A lot of stinkers. I mean
Jen Prokop 58:09
you said stinkers.
Sierra Simone 58:13
We need to do you know how we did like the last limb count for ID it's like, we need to have the unintentional pun. count for Sarah.
Unknown Speaker 58:31
Sarah,
Sierra Simone 58:33
yeah, don't don't make a sale.
Jen Prokop 58:38
As we like wrap up, I would like to tell you one of the greatest Twitter accounts ever to be created is at is there pegging? And if a book has pegging in it, they will retweet it.
Sarah MacLean 58:52
So girls,
Sierra Simone 58:52
yeah.
Jen Prokop 58:56
I don't know.
But based on the followers, I know it seems highly likely that someone we know
Sarah MacLean 59:07
guys
doing the Lord's work out here.
Jen Prokop 59:12
That's right now I have got to say it was my job to like list the names of the Peggy and Caldwell and I forgot to get it. I you know, it's like notes I had when we first recorded a month ago. So I think we'll have to put it in show notes, but I do know that like, the person I communicated with, is he is reading and she is famous actually in the past month for freaking out everyone on the fucking internet by getting Colin Firth trending. Remember that? She posted? Like, like, you know, which what's your age? And which, which Darcy Do you like, and all of a sudden, like 50,000 people or something answered her tweet, and everybody else was like, why is Colin Firth trending because they thought he was dead. And I was like, you need to like use your powers for good and not evil. So,
Unknown Speaker 1:00:07
here we are. And here Here we are, here we are.
Jen Prokop 1:00:15
Any last thoughts on
pegging? Before we wrap up this very special episode?
Sarah MacLean 1:00:20
You know what, I'm just going to say that I, I'm always so fucking delighted when Sierra joins us, even though it feels it feels only been once before. It feels like it's been a lot, but it's just been once before. So if you have not, if you skip the first season, or you skip reading ID, I highly, highly recommend you listening to the mcgroove episode of this podcast is not just I mean, you'll learn the plot of margrave which is banana.
But also, there's a lot of
really thoughtful conversation about erotic romance. And there were Sierra I think both of our minds a little bit.
Jen Prokop 1:01:02
Oh my god. Yes. Well, and before Sierra goes to wait, I know I'm not sure if you're going to say this, but I'm pretty sure that she has written a book with pegging. And I was hoping he would end up by
like, talking about your book or giving you a chance to talk about your book too. I mean, hell I'm
Sierra Simone 1:01:20
I'm just such a I'm like such a retiring like shrinking violet.
Jen Prokop 1:01:26
Special guest who has written about this in her books, and somehow she is not doing the right thing by telling us about it. So that's where we're going to like, make sure we go before Well,
Sierra Simone 1:01:35
I didn't want to horn in or maybe I do, maybe morning.
Jen Prokop 1:01:42
I was like, Oh, yeah, he does spam.
Sierra Simone 1:01:51
Yes. So if you are interested in reading any of my books, or reading about pegging or reading and pegging Sienna I have novella called the moon, and it is a very kind of broody, sexy contemporary retelling of Merlin and then way and I know Jen is probably making a face right now. So, I love Even I promise even of Merlin. I love you too. Even if Merlin's not your thing, that's totally okay. Um, but it is. It's a really sort of, I really kind of wanted to explore sort of like, what a spiritual kind of feeling that pegging could generate. So, I use the the pegging scene between the two of them as sort of this final act of like, complete elemental joining, I guess between them. And I think that it's a lot of fun. But if, like, you know, magic and pegging aren't your thing I totally understand. But yes, that is called the
Sarah MacLean 1:02:59
moon. And it's a In the world of the new Camelot series
Sierra Simone 1:03:02
Yes, so I wrote a series called New Camelot. It's a trilogy and it is a contemporary retelling of Are there going to be are and Lancelot. But everyone's in love with each other, and they all have lots of like very angsty sighs amazing. And the moon takes place after the trilogy, but you don't need to read the trilogy. To understand what happens in the moon. It can it can stand on its own.
Sarah MacLean 1:03:27
Got it. And then I just want to say and you know, you can plug your ears if you want here. But if you are new to the podcast this week, and you are a car fan, we did a deep dive read of priest, we will link to that in show notes as well. Don't miss it. We love it. It is one of the transformational texts of the genre. According to me, Oh, stop.
Sierra Simone 1:03:53
So I'm plugging my ears. Now. I'm plugging, I'm plugging.
Unknown Speaker 1:03:58
There's another one.
Jen Prokop 1:04:00
Got it, man.
They got us we got to squeeze them all in before they got
Sarah MacLean 1:04:09
as much as possible.
Unknown Speaker 1:04:12
So there it is. All right. Yeah, picking that was great. That's
Unknown Speaker 1:04:17
what she said,
Sarah MacLean 1:04:19
Where can people find you online after they've decided they love
Sierra Simone 1:04:23
you?
Jen Prokop 1:04:25
And they want to read everything you've ever written?
Sierra Simone 1:04:27
Yes, you can find me on Instagram as the car Simone or on
facebook.com slash the car Simone. And then also I have a Facebook group,
which is pretty awesome. And there's a lot of people who like kind of the dirty books in there. So if that describes us, and that might be a group of people that you would like to talk about 30 books with. And I have a Twitter but I don't go on to twitter.com so don't tweet me because I
Unknown Speaker 1:04:58
guess it's just good.
Sarah MacLean 1:05:01
Yeah, it's just good. Thank you. As always we are already as I mentioned earlier in the podcast we already have a plan for Sears third Oh yeah.
Unknown Speaker 1:05:13
Third time's a charm. Oh god.
Sarah MacLean 1:05:19
Jen what else we have
Unknown Speaker 1:05:20
to say? Please remember to
Sarah MacLean 1:05:22
like and subscribe if you're new to the podcast and you really enjoyed this this is what it's like every week. I mean not always with Sarah but with
you can subscribe and like and leave a review if you feel so inclined.
We you get buttons and other fun things
Jen Prokop 1:05:42
and there is a pegging the patriarchy button actually. And it comes it's like round and then there's like a little like side button. That's just a carrot.
Unknown Speaker 1:05:50
Yes. Yes. There's
Sierra Simone 1:05:52
like a little tiny button that goes with it. This a little carrot and sort of like the
Unknown Speaker 1:05:57
secret
Jen Prokop 1:06:00
Yeah, we could all wear it at like kiss
Sarah MacLean 1:06:02
cons in rW ways and really show and we would know.
Unknown Speaker 1:06:07
Yeah.
Sarah MacLean 1:06:09
So you can do that through Jen's website links and show notes. You can buy
some gear, romance gear t shirts, and other things from my partnership with Jordan Denae links and show notes more to come in the new year in February. So coming soon, a much bigger collection. Our producer is Eric Mortensen.
Jen Prokop 1:06:30
Don't forget to vote the right way and all of your upcoming elections whether they be for the local school board or for you know, the future of American democracy. Share
Unknown Speaker 1:06:41
that to
Jen Prokop 1:06:48
2020 all we gotta do is
Unknown Speaker 1:06:49
vote every election year guys we're
Sarah MacLean 1:06:51
in. Oh my god.
This year's gonna be 40,000 years long.
Jen Prokop 1:07:01
All right, everybody have a good one
Sarah MacLean 1:07:02
you all so much?
Sierra Simone 1:07:12
Real quick
Unknown Speaker 1:07:21
let me maybe
Unknown Speaker 1:07:33
stop being homophobic and benya
Unknown Speaker 1:07:38
No, you wouldn't love it.
Unknown Speaker 1:07:46
Let me show me
Elizabeth (Voicemail) 1:08:14
Hi, this is Elizabeth, aka is reading can remember the pegging crew. I wish I was sure which one was my first romance. It was so long ago. I think it was either seadrill by Penelope nary Dark of the Moon by Karen robarge. But beloved rogue by Penelope Williamson.
What I am sure is that it was hella problematic and would not hold up to now.
So, the more as to why we asked for this to be this episode to be tagging, I've talked a lot with the members of the peddling crew about why we're so interested in things enrollment. And I think is one of the goals of writing or and or reading romance is to dismantle the patriarchy, there is no clearer metaphor for that then tagging, as per the button taking the patriarchy. And this is sort of a way of undoing all that problematic. text that we read when we were younger, especially those of us who Kingdom romance in the 80s and 90s. Like Ilana, and Broad City says, things have been terrible for women up to and including today. And 2019 has definitely been for me the year of misogyny fatigue along with a lot of other fatigue. romance provides a safe space for fantasy and wish fulfillment. And I think that heading is something that a lot of women can relate to right now in
in not never avenge sense but in a way of taking back power.
I hope that makes sense. And that will and thank you for recording this episode for us and with you guys for doing this. Thank you
S02.16: Christmas Romance Novel Recommendations
Merry Merry Happy Happy Joy Joy…it’s Christmas and we can’t quit you, so we recorded a little stocking stuffer for you—fifteen minutes of Christmas novella recs, along with a far-too-long discussion of our favorite Christmas Songs.
If you want to give us a gift this year, please like/subscribe to/review the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform!
We’re back next week with the seasonally appropriate (at least in title) Born in Ice, by none other than the queen herself, Nora Roberts. Read Born in Ice at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo or your local indie.
Show Notes
Sarah and Jen like a lot of Christmas songs: Silver Bells, Fairy Tale of New York, Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas (which in fact does have a sad and not-sad version!), God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen, Carol of the Belles, Rockin' Round the Christmas Tree, Santa Baby, and Baby It's Cold Outside (which just might be super feminist?).
This year, there's a new Chanukah romance anthology you should check out called Eight Kisses, and Roan Parrish just released a little snippet of a story about Ginger and Christopher from Small Change called A Good, Old Fashioned Chanukah Pegging.
Oh, you aren't familiar with the Carina Dirty Bits line? They are quick and dirty--not thiccand dirty. But whatever works. Also, check out Jen's list of which romances have the best sex in the library.
We have lots of favorite romance librarians, but we love Bandherbooks and our favorite archivist is Steve Ammindown at the BGSU Pop Culture Library in Ohio.
The Sierra Simone story with the bear is from Hot for the Holidays anthology, but she also has a story with Kennedy Ryan in a 2019 release called Christmas in the City.
Did someone say only one circulation desk? Just kidding. It's only one bed.
If you want show notes for last year's holiday episode, click here.
Our first episode of 2020 will be Born in Ice by Nora Roberts, a book that blooded Jen.
S02.15: Romance Recommendations: Stump Jen & Sarah Part 2
It’s the second half of our recommendation podcast! We asked you to ask us for recommendations, and thought it would be fun to recommend on the fly—absolutely no preparation! Instead, we met up at Sarah’s apartment and read your questions sight-unseen (thanks to @bestfriendkelly for collecting them!). What ensued is a killer list of romances that you should all read! And if you missed the first half — head back and listen!
Do not miss the show notes this week, y’all. Really.
Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, please leave us a like or a review!
Next week, we’re releasing a little stocking stuffer for our Christmas Day episode, but we’re back in business on January 1, with the seasonally appropriate (at least in title) Born in Ice, by none other than the queen herself, Nora Roberts. Read Born in Ice at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo or your local indie.
Question 1: Beth from Milwaukee asked, "I'm going to Iceland in December for my 10th wedding anniversary! I obviously need a book that has snow/cold and using body heat and -ahem- other activities for warmth. Bonus points if a volcano or other geological feature is a part of the story! Sub genre is not important, and yes I'm aware of the Ice Planet Barbarians."
Our recommendations: From the deep recesses of Jen's brain, the only romance she can think of with a volcano, Eden Burning by Elizabeth Lowell. And that's from the 80s, so fair warning that it's likely to have problematic elements. When it comes to snuggly, warm, only one bed romances, you just need to use the internet! But Jen did write a piece about Only One Bed for Kirkus, which you should read. In the meantime, go watch Joe versus the Volcano, and then talking about Hawaii reminded Sarah of some bananas sounding book by Anne Stuart called Tangled Lies. But a few snowy romances: Beary Christmas Baby by Sasha Devlin or How the Dukes Stole Christmas.
Question 2: Emily from Washington D.C. want our opinion aobut "the BEST star crossed lovers trope (it always gets me so good)."
Our Recommendations: The reason Sarah thinks that star-crossed lovers have to end up unhappy is Romeo and Juliet, of course. But Jen thinks you should try Luck of the Draw by Kate Clayborn and Sarah recommends Long Shot by Kennedy Ryan, but comes with a whole suitcase of content warnings for domestic violence. In the interim, Jen read and recommends Forbidden Promises by Synithia Williams, the heroine falls in love with her sister's ex-husband! And of course, coming in the summer of 2020 comes Daring and the Duke by Sarah, which will also work. But you have to wait!
Question 3: Megumi from San Antonio, TX is looking for "a contemporary of someone not Scottish going to Scotland and finding love. (Maybe England but mostly Scotland)"
Our Recommendations: Jen lost her mind and said Unfixable by Tessa Bailey, but Willa is a heroine who goes to Ireland. She thinks it still counts. Sarah recommends a novella by Sophie Jordan called "In a Stranger's Bed" which was a Goldilocks retelling published in the Glamour anthology but which is currently unavailable so come on Sophie, get it together and put your stories up because they are ON FIRE. A few others you can try: A Duke by Default by Alyssa Cole, the Under the Kilt series by Melissa Blue, Getting Hot with the Scot by Melonie Johnson, and Ten Days With the Highlander by Hayson Manning. Also, we didn't know what Adriana Herrera had up her sleeve when we recorded, but Mangos & Misteltoe is ADORABLE, and features to delicious Dominican heroines falling in love on a Scottish Baking Show. It's also a perfect holiday romance!
Question 4: Becca wants "a funny contemporary, a true romcom, minimal trauma."
Our recommendations: Jen thinks it doesn't exist. Sarah recommends going old school to Jennifer Crusie or Susan Elizabeth Phillips. If it helps, you should know that later this season, we'll be talking about Bet Me and Nobody's Baby But Mine. After we recorded, Sarah realized she should have recommended Christina Lauren, who she adores, and who she believes is one of the few authors writing real RomCom. If you haven't read Josh & Hazel's Guide to Not Dating, it's a very funny, very romantic friends-to-lovers romance! "What happened to romantic comedy" is an existential question for our time.
Question 5: Laurel from NC wants a book that "Has marriage of convenience, preferably historical."
Our recommendations: Sarah says Sherry Thomas better than everyone and recommends Ravishing the Heiress. Jen thinks The Duke Buys a Bride by Sophie Jordan might work. Sarah points out that in order to qualify, the marriage has to happen pretty early in the story. The marriage has to be part of the plot the whole time. Once again, there are so many of these we had trouble thinking of them on the spot, but in hindsight, Sarah would like you not to miss Amalie Howard's The Beast of Beswick or Scarlet Peckham's The Duke I Tempted. Bonus story from Jen about a Sherry Thomas YA book about Mulan called The Magnolia Sword.
Question 6: Cara from Finland wants a book that "Has chosen families strongly included in the plot. Extra points if it's enemies-to-lovers with the heroine's family ready to kick the pining-but-unfortunately-dumbass hero's butt."
Our recommendations: Whoa! That's a lot of asks all at once. Just reread IAD, Cara! This is the plot of Sarah's book A Scot in the Dark, so that's a good place to start. Lots of rock star romances have chosen family, try Kristen Callihan's series, and Managed will be a book that blooded Jen later this season. It's not linked via heroines, but Elle Kennedy's Hotter than Ever is bonkers sexy, a MMF menage, and has lots of found Navy SEAL family. In historicals, there are lots of sisterhood/brotherhood books. Try the Wallflowers series by Lisa Kleypas, or Lorraine Heath's Scoundrels of St. James!
Question 7: Krystal from New Jersey is looking for "Childhood friends to lovers - historical! Where the Male is titled and the woman is not!"
Our recommendations: There are so many that will work here. Sarah recommends Tessa Dare's first series, the Wanton Dairymaids (!!!) should work, try Godess of the Hunt. After recording, of course, a bunch of books came to mind! Try Kelly Bowen's You're the Earl That I Want, Vanessa Riley's The Butterfly Bride, and Loretta Chase's Last Night's Scandal.
Question 8: Rosalie from the Chicago suburbs wants books she "can recommend to my 15 year old son. Have thought about Sarina Bowen’s Ivy Years. Although LJ Shen “Sinner of Saints” series is high school, seems too dark/gritty and I think he would not be able to suspend reality for some of the story lines given he is the same age."
Our Recommendations: Sarah thinks the Sarina Bowen series you mentioned should work just fine. Adult romances that are adventure stories might work are the Hidden Legacy series by Ilona Andrews and Polaris Rising by Jessie Mihalik. Some actual YA Romance that Jen likes are The Way You Make me Feel and I Believe in a Thing Called Love, which are both by Maurene Goo. One of Jen's favorite YA books of all time is called The Disreputable History of Frankie Landau-Banks. She also recommneds Not if I Save You First by Ally Carter. Some sports romances we recommend are the WAGS series by Naima Simone, especially Scoring Off the Field. Finally, The Deal by Elle Kennedy might be a good choice.
Question 9: Jemma from Texas is looking for "Found family. Also with lots of good food descriptions. Not necessarily a chef romance though (they stress me out because chefs stay up so late at night; ugh, who does that?)"
Our recommendations: This is such a perfect question for Sarah. She recommends the Recipe for Love series by Louisa Edwards. Another series by the same author is called the Rising Star Chefs. The Opposite of You by Rachel Higginson will work. Finally, American Dreamer by Adriana Herrera, and a series by Sabrina Sol. In hindsight, Sarah basically only recommended books with chefs in them. She's sorry. She has a problem.
Question 10: Sara from Albuquerque wants a "Bodyguard trope where the person being guarded does NOT spend the whole book trying to escape the bodyguard because he/she doesn't think there is any danger even though it's incredibly obvious to everyone else. Bonus if the bodyguard character is female."
Our recommendations: Jen recommends Sexy/Dangerous (female bodyguard) by Beverly Jenkins, which is fabulous. Nana Malone has a few, one in her royals seris, and another is Bodyguard to the Billionaire (female bodyguard) -- also, listen to Nana talk about Royal Romance on an interstitial last season!. And! Try HelenKay Dimon's Leave Me Breathless (female bodyguard), Katee Robert's Thalanian Dynasty series (male bodyguard/MMF menage) and Anna Zabo's Reverb (trans male bodyguard).
Question 11: Molly from Washington has an AMA question about how to organize her Kindle books. She is also looking for a book that "Features a Grumpy/terse older brother’s friend (or older brother of friend) with smart mouth heroine, bonus points for SUPER HOT, some sort of road trip, or problem they have to solve much to their reluctance (trapped on a desert island?) basically Bowen and Mari 😂"
Our answer: : Jen wrote a long thread about how she organizes her Kindle, which you should just read on Twitter. But it takes a lot of time, so clear a day to do it! For the grumpy road trip question, Sarah recommends Right by Jana Aston. This is the second book in a series, the first one is called Wrong and you don't have to read them in order. Also, don't miss Tessa Bailey's Staking His Claim or Fix Her Up! Maybe try Mister McHottie by Pippa Grant. And...have you listened to our Road Trip interstitial?
Question 12: Hero from Paris, France (not Texas!) wants to know what trope would be, and then some books that take you on a "yellow brick road of emotions."
Our Recommendations: We ended up talking about the last books that made us cry. The last book Sarah read that made her cry was Sinner by Sierra Simone. For Jen, it was The Bride Test by Helen Hoang. Jen also thinks Sarah's books are pretty emotional, so start off with her first, Nine Rules to Break When Romancing the Rake. Finally, The Madness of Lord Ian MacKenzie by Jennifer Ashley or Escorted by Claire Kent. Also, we're going to read Alexis Hall's For Real as a book that blooded Sarah, so stay tuned for that!
Question 13: Chris from Seattle wants to know how we keep track of all these books! Also, a book that "starts with the main character in jail."
Our recommendations: Jen recommends the book Hard Time by Cara McKenna. The entire Devil's Rock series by Sophie Jordan is fantastic, and the first one is actually called All Chained Up, but you're going to want to read them all. Sarah recommends My One and Only Duke by Grace Burrowes, which starts with the hero in Newgate. Another historical with the hero in jail is The Highwayman by Kerrigan Byrne. Hold by Claire Kent starts with both characters on a prison planet, and there is also an entire series of prison planet books by Emmy Chandler.
Question 14: Emily wants to know "How do you find time to read as much as you do? I’m a fast reader but can never seem to carve out enough time to read as much as I want." And also is looking for recommendations for books that are "deeply, utterly romantic and swoony and leaves you with a PROFOUND book hangover. Great, sexy banter is a plus!"
Our recommendations: Jen doesn't watch TV and Sarah starts a book every day. Don't be afraid to DNF! Book wise, Jen knows a book is a real winner if she rereads it, and some of her favorites are Everything I Left Unsaid and The Truth About Him by Molly O'Keefe (famously, this is the only duology/book with a cliffhanger that Jen has ever finished!), Thirsty by Mia Hopkins, Never Sweeter by Charlotte Stein, and she also rereads a lot of Kresley Cole. Sarah recommends Three Little Mistakes by Nikki Sloane.
Question 15: Rosa, Daughter of Mexican immigrants living in Oakland, CA wants to know "Is a historical romance where both main characters are people of color. Does this exist?"
Our recommendations: Some #OwnVoices historical authors you should check out are Beverly Jenkins, Alyssa Cole, Rebel Carter, Vanessa Riley, and Piper Huguley. Lydia San Andres has several historicals with Latinx characters, start with A Summer for Scandal. Also, check out the Decades series, which are African-American historicals that focus on each decade of American history. Each book has a different author, so you can check out lots of new writers. Jeannie Lin writes luscious historicals set in China. Forthcoming in 2020, Diana Quincy is coming out with books that feature Middle Eastern characters.
Question 16: Rachel from Kansas asks for a book that "Features a heroine who had breast cancer. Your podcast has helped me through my recovery."
Our recommendations: Jen recommends Hooked on You by Kate Meader which has a heroine had a double mastectomy. She is in recovery and does have a cancer scare after finding a lump in her armpit, but it is not cancer. Sarah recommends a contemporary by Brenna Aubrey called At Any Moment, and then When the Duke was Wicked, which is a historical by Lorraine Heath which is based on extensive medical research that is accurate to the time period. Although it's not breast cancer, Sarah references a Nikki Sloane book where the hero is recovering from cancer in another question on today's episode, and that one was Three Little Mistakes.
Question 17: Katrin from London would "like a book where the hero has a smaller 🍆 (penis)."
Our recommendation: Jen has one that she could think of, which is A Matter of Disagreement by E.E. Ottoman. But that is a difficult request! We are going to keep thinking about it.
Our last AMA was from Rosa, who also asked about historical romance with people of color, and she wants to know about the process of cover design.
Our answer: Sarah talked about the process and Jen described what she learned in her conversation with Reese Ryan. Sarah talked about how she does give some advice on colors and why the people in the art department needs visual information for making the best cover. For The Day of the Duchess, Sarah sent a photo of Cate Blanchette as guidance. Inspired by this quesiton, Jen did contact Harlequin and is interviewing someone at Harlequin about their cover design process, and that will be published at Kirkus in January 2020.
S02.14: Indigo: Ride the Beverly Jenkins Train
Get ready for Hester, one of Sarah’s favorite heroines of all time — and Beverly Jenkins’s Indigo, which Jen just read for the first time! We’re talking historical romance, the way romances feel important, sex and intimacy, and all the reasons why everyone should read Beverly Jenkins right now.
Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcasting platform — and while you’re there, please leave us a like or a review!
Next week, it’s the second half of our book recommendation, stump Sarah & Jen AMA. The following week we’ll release a tiny little stocking stuffer for our Christmas Day episode, but we’re back in business on January 1, with the seasonally appropriate (at least in title) Born in Ice, by none other than the queen herself, Nora Roberts. Read Born in Ice at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Kobo or your local indie.
Show Notes
Jen now has critic crushes on Diego Baez and Walton Muyumba. Liz Taylor who is kind of a big deal in the book world wrote an amazing book about Chicago's first Mayor Daley called American Pharaoh.
Thanks to the Lincoln RI public library for being awesome.
There's actually a lot of great resources for how to teach slavery to kids, so do better white teachers.
Here at Fated Mates, we are LaQuette stans. Listen to her talk about discomfort and how important it is in her RITA speech last year.
Colson Whitehead's Underground Railroad is an absolute tour de force. Here is a cool site mapping the world of the novel.
If you don't know about America's history of lynching, you should learn all about Bryan Stevenson, who spearheaded the effort to create a Lynching Museum. The site Without Sanctuary preserves the history of these postcards (Content warning on that site for obvious reasons.)
Gone with the Wind is an example of the pervasive and terrible "happy slave" narrative, which appears over and over again. Know and reject this narrative, not just in adult books, but in those written for kids. And while I'm on the subject, that goes for picture books about monkeys, too.
This amazing One Dot One Person map is a stark look at how the legacy of slavery and segregation still impacts where Americans live today.
So you want to read all the books about the LeVeq clan? Start with Through the Storm. and although Sarah said "kids" she meant that Hester and Galen's descendents are the main characters in the Edge of Midnight series. One of our favorite romance people is When Fumni Met Romance, and you should definitley read her talking about her love for Indigo and Beverly Jenkins.
The internet makes it so much easier to read the stories of enslaved people. Along with the rather amazing (but imperfect) WPA interviews, you can read any number of slave narratives. Remember it was illegal to teach slaves to read, so it's an especailly powerful experience to read slave narratives. If you've never read Frederick Douglass, you should, but Jen also recommends Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl by Harriet Jacobs.
If you are looking for more resources to learn about American slavery, the New York times 1619 Project is amazing. If you are a listener, Jen recommends you listen the Yale open course about The Civil War with professor David Blight.
Jen liked an early 80s novel called The Chaneysville Incident, which is about a historian trying to discover the truth about how his family's past intersects with a local legend about the Underground Railroad. Here's a recent interview with author David Bradley when the book was converted to an eBook.
The history of the Underground Railroad is part legend, part myth, and part fact. This site talks specifically about the route people fleeing took north through Michigan on the way to Canada.
Night Song was the first novel by Beverly Jenkins.
All about the Fugitive Slave Act, why it was so terrible, and how we are seeing echoes of it today.
Some interesting sites that talk about indigo cultivation and the role of enslaved people in making the dye. A 2013 book called Red, White, and Black Make Blue discusses the relationship of slavery and indigo production in South Carolina.
A thread from Adriana Herrera about why historical romance must grapple with how problematic white women upheld slavery.
Colorism is an issue that Beverly Jenkins weaves into Indigo.
Looking for more romances with carriage sex? Of course you are.
The Blessings series is a contemporary series by Beverly Jenkins that takes place in the town of Henry Adams, KS.
The Biblical story of Daniel and the Lion's Den is why Galen's nickname is The Black Daniel.
Sex euphamisms, anyone?
Robert E. Lee was pretty terrible.
Jen's favorite novel by Beverly Jenkins is Forbidden, which was recently optioned for TV! Sarah reviewed it for the Washington Post in 2016. Jen has no idea what movie she saw with a character who was passing, but Sarah recommends Nella Larsen's 1929 Passing.
In 2018, they made a movie of Deadly/Sexy. Fun fact, the actor in the movie, Travis Cure, was then the cover model for her next book, Rebel.
The book recommended by Walton Muyumba is called Wayward Lives, Beautiful Experiments.
Buy Fated Mates buttons from Kelly at the shop on Jen's site, and Sarah's t-shirts and other swag here.
Jan 1, 2020, we'll be discussing Born in Ice by Nora Roberts.
